Show: HARDBALL Date: October 14, 2016 Guest: Michelle Bernard, Michael Steel, Francesca Chambers, John Stanton, Richard Blum; Colleen McCain Nelson, Fred Hiatt
CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Trump to Obama, watch out!
Let`s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.
Well, tonight, Donald Trump`s facing multiple public allegations of sexual misconduct, some of which go back decades. And in response, Trump is saying that his accusers, along with his political rivals and the media, are part of a conspiracy against him and his supporters.
Well, today, two more women have come forward with accounts of Trump`s sexual advances. In a press conference with attorney Gloria Allred today, former "Apprentice" contestant Summer Zervos said that Trump in 2007 accosted her in his hotel room during what she says was supposed to be a meeting about a potential job opportunity. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUMMER ZERVOS, FMR. "APPRENTICE" CONTESTANT: He put me in an embrace, and I tried to push him away. I pushed his chest to put space between us, and I said, Come on, man, get real. He repeated my words back to me, "Get real," as he began thrusting his genitals. He tried to kiss me again, with my hands still on his chest, and I said, Dude, you`re tripping right now, attempting to make it clear I was not interested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, late today, Donald Trump issued a statement denying the accusation of Summer Zervos. Quote, "To be clear, I never met her at a hotel or greeted her inappropriately a decade ago. That is not who I am as a person, and it is not how I`ve conducted my life. Beyond that, the media is now creating a theater of absurdity that threatens to tear our democratic process apart and poison the minds of the American public. When Gloria Allred is given the same weighting on national television as the president of the United States and unfounded accusations are treated as fact, with reporters throwing due diligence and fact finding to the side in a rush to file their stories first, it`s evident that we truly are living in a broken system."
In another alleged incident reported earlier today by "The Washington Post," former model Kristin Anderson said Trump touched her inappropriately at a club in New York in the early `90s. Let`s watch her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN ANDERSON, FORMER MODEL: This is the vivid part for me. So the person on my right, who unbeknownst to me at that time was Donald Trump, put their hand up my skirt. And as I pushed the hand away, and I got up and I turned around and I see these eyebrows, very distinct eyebrows of Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, NBC has not independently confirmed any of the women`s accounts.
At his rally earlier today, Trump again denied all allegations of sexual misconduct.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The stories are total fiction. They`re 100 percent made up. They never happened. They never would happen. These are lies being pushed by the media and the Clinton campaign to try and keep their grip on our country.
They are all false. They`re totally invented fiction, all 100 percent totally and completely fabricated.
One came out recently, where I was sitting alone in some club. I really don`t sit alone that much. Honestly, folks, I don`t think I sit alone. I go into a -- I was sitting alone by myself, like this. And then I went "Wah!"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, Trump also issued a stark warning to President Obama saying that women could come forward and accuse him of the same thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Obama is an incompetent. He is an incompetent president. He doesn`t know what he`s doing. He`s out campaigning all day long. He`s talking about me like he knows me. I don`t know him. He doesn`t know me.
And why doesn`t some woman maybe come up and say -- what they say falsely about me, they could say about him. They could say it about anybody. They could say it about anybody. I`ll tell you what. He better be careful because they could say it about anybody, anybody at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: I`m joined now by Hugh Hewitt -- he`s nationally syndicated talk show host and MSNBC analyst -- and Michelle Bernard is president of the Bernard Center for Women, also a columnist for "U.S. News & World Report."
Who should we start with? How about you, Hugh? (INAUDIBLE) let`s just talk politics here and -- you know, these accounts have not been verified by NBC News. We have to be very clear about that. Trump has denied them, denied them in their entirety. So where do we go from there?
HUGH HEWITT, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: John Reid (ph) is a legendary evidence professor whom I had at the University of Michigan Law School years ago. Scott Howell (ph), my friend, who teaches at Chapman Law Schools, now another great expert on evidence. They teach you how to categorize and apply one rule across all allegations, things like excited outbursts, contemporaneous accounts, admissions against interest.
Summer Zervos`s account is very detailed. It would lend itself to quick discrediting if it is not, in fact, true.
MATTHEWS: She mentioned...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: ... club sandwich.
MATTHEWS: She`s talking about going for a job with Trump in a hotel room...
HEWITT: Beverly Hills Hotel...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: You know what those rooms are. They`re all separate bungalows.
HEWITT: Yes. So to very easily prove -- we will find out about that one.
MATTHEWS: How would we find out? Would we have to check the -- who -- who was booked?
HEWITT: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Who was booked. I think that`s fairly...
HEWITT: Trump came up today with it (ph) -- Mike Pence said in a very tough interview with Matt this morning that there would be evidence forthcoming.
MATTHEWS: Matt Lauer.
HEWITT: Matt Lauer. Immediately, they brought forward a witness to the first class plane ride from many years ago, but he can`t remember what year, and he says he has a the good photographic memory, but he can`t remember what good (ph) year. Not a particularly credible rebuttal, but...
MATTHEWS: How would you rebut something on an airplane. If somebody did what this woman accused him of doing, grabbing, basically, above (ph) her dress, and that kind of thing, under her dress, whatever, how would you be in a situation where you`d see that? First of all, you`d have to be in the same row.
MICHELLE BERNARD, BERNARD CENTER FOR WOMEN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: You don`t look -- you know, you`re not a giraffe. You can`t look over three rows. You have to be in the same row, and have to be, like...
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: And you`d have to be peering -- exactly.
MATTHEWS: Yes, and watching Donald Trump`s hand as closely as a person who was feeling it.
BERNARD: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: The person feeling it would obviously be more in touch, literally, with what Trump was up to.
BERNARD: Absolutely. I don`t -- I don`t see that...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: But they put this fellow out as their evidence.
BERNARD: Yes, and nothing else. You notice, like, once again, we hear a promise of something that is coming, and I believe towards the end of the day today, Mike Pence said there`s nothing else, at least not right now.
MATTHEWS: Well, I think Hugh is on to something because the evidence here is going to end up being the accounts of the two people...
HEWITT: Yes.
MATTHEWS: ... because who else would have the evidence?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Unless there`s contemporaneous assertions by the person who said they were accosted that way, if somebody was treated that way...
HEWITT: One of the rules of evidence...
MATTHEWS: and if they told a bunch of people, like their relatives that, You won`t believe what happened on the plane...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: One of the rules of evidence is, did you tell someone contemporaneously? I never believed Anita Hill because they had no contemporaneous accounts, other than Janet Napolitano. She did not come forward. Both of "The New York Times" women had a contemporaneous...
MATTHEWS: Did you say other than Janet Napolitano?
HEWITT: Yes, but she did not come forward and testify. Janet Napolitano, I believe, was one of the women advising Ms. Hill at the time.
MATTHEWS: At the time that she accused that...
HEWITT: Clarence Thomas.
MATTHEWS: ... Clarence Thomas of doing that?
HEWITT: I believe she was on record as saying that Anita Hill was telling the truth. I`m not quite sure.
MATTHEWS: OK.
HEWITT: But I will say this. It will all out. The fact that we`re talking about it means Donald Trump is losing tonight. A general denial will not work. Specific denials, even if persuasive, are too many to turn back -- he has to change the narrative somehow, or he`ll lose.
MATTHEWS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Gloria Allred is a smart lawyer. Like anything in the law business, a lot of people just don`t like lawyers, but she certainly has that -- the witness prepared.
BERNARD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: That witness has -- as you just said, had a very detailed account. She was very nervous, but she was laying it out there herself.
BERNARD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: That was impressive.
BERNARD: And I`ll tell you, I read -- I was -- I was doing a lot of reading today, trying to understand what is the psychology that we have as a country where we seem to elevate the needs of men or people who have been accused of sexual misconduct above the needs of women who have said that, This person has perpetrated a crime on me. And one of the things...
MATTHEWS: You still are innocent until proven guilty. And under the law...
BERNARD: No, absolutely, but you see -- we live in a sort of rape culture and a victim culture and a culture that doesn`t believe women when they say they have been sexually abused.
MATTHEWS: You think people don`t believe this -- this account by these women?
BERNARD: Well, I believe that of all of the women that I`ve been watching on every...
MATTHEWS: You don`t think these women are believed right now?
BERNARD: I don`t believe that many -- I believe that there are a lot of people who do not believe them. I believe that there are people who say that it didn`t happen, or if it did happen, it was no big deal. There are women...
MATTHEWS: That`s a different account.
BERNARD: ... all over the nation...
MATTHEWS: I think I...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: ... false allegations abound. There were false allegations at Claremont McKenna (ph) College earlier last year. There are false allegations all over the United States. We have to be careful with them. As a political matter, if you`re defending, false or true, you`re losing. You`re losing.
BERNARD: No, I understand what you`re saying, but I`m -- as a woman, it is so unbelievably...
MATTHEWS: OK...
BERNARD: ... irritating...
MATTHEWS: We...
BERNARD: ... to have to hear about...
MATTHEWS: OK, look...
BERNARD: ... the fact that...
MATTHEWS: ... the fact that we...
BERNARD: ... it could be false.
MATTHEWS: OK...
BERNARD: It could be false. We know that.
MATTHEWS: It`s like these police cases. I always say to people, Treat each case as a case. That`s why we have a courtroom...
BERNARD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: ... because each case is different, a little different than everyone else, or we wouldn`t need a court.
BERNARD: Well, and if you`re going to assume Donald Trump is innocent until proven guilty, but that also means that the victim or the alleged victim is to be believed until proven...
HEWITT: And taken very seriously.
BERNARD: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: OK, well, as I reported, Trump yesterday lashed out at his accusers, his political rivals in the media, saying they`re a part of a conspiracy to destroy him. Let`s watch him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The establishment and their media enablers wield control over this nation through means that are very well known. Anyone who challenges their control is deemed a sexist, a racist, a xenophobe and morally deformed.
I knew these false attacks would come. I knew this day would arrive. It`s only a question of when. This is a conspiracy against you, the American people, and we cannot let this happen or continue!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, in his speech today, President Obama today mocked Trump for his latest conspiracy theory. Let`s watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Apparently, in a speech yesterday, he started talking about global elites, that there was a conspiracy of global elites.
This is a guy who spent all his time hanging around, trying to convince everybody that he was a global elite, talking about how great his buildings are, how luxurious and how rich he is and flying around everywhere. All he had time for was celebrities. And now suddenly, he`s acting like he`s a populist out there. Man, I`m going to fight for working people. Come on, man!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: So what do we make of this wild accusation -- it seemed like an accusation -- Be careful, Mr. President because they could come for you?
BERNARD: Well, I...
MATTHEWS: Was that -- was that a way of just telling his people -- which I would understand, politically -- Hey, this is all a charade anyway, so I can play this, too, or is it trying to spur, perhaps, some accusations?
BERNARD: Well, that`s what I believe. I honestly believe that when you have somebody running for president and they make this kind of statement -- Be careful, it could happen to anyone, and he says it over and over again - - I believe that he is sort of saying to some nutcase out there or -- maybe or maybe not -- please accuse President Obama.
If you`ve had any troubles with President Obama or if you think you`ve had some problems with President Obama, if he has ever, you know, engaged in any sort of sexual misconduct with you...
MATTHEWS: That would be unlikely, but...
BERNARD: Well, it would be highly unlikely because, quite frankly, given everything that the president went through to be elected in 2008, if something like that had happened, I think we would have heard about it...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: I want to thank the president for helping my party and rallying my base, leading from behind, red line...
MATTHEWS: OK, can we -- I want to help you here. You don`t have to do this.
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: He is going to help us rally our base.
MATTHEWS: I don`t care about your party or the other party, but let me tell you something, what`s really sad about this election. If it`s going to be based on this, OK, it`s going to be based on this. Hillary Clinton might as well go sit in a rocking chair because this...
HEWITT: That`s what`s she`s doing.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: But there is a problem here. The sentiment that Trump tapped into, whether he believed it or not -- and I have very great suspicions he didn`t believe in any of it -- concerns about trade and lost manufacturing jobs among the working class people of this country, all races...
BERNARD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: ... concerns about the lack of any reasonable control over immigration that doesn`t seem to be going on, and third, wars that we really didn`t benefit from in terms of our security and the perception of most people who are working class people whose kids had to go out and fight those battles...
BERNARD: Yes.
MATTHEWS: They`re going to be betrayed by this because what`ll happen is people are not going to vote on these issues. They`re going to vote on the personal fitness of the candidate. And that, I think, is a loss. We should have had a vote, like they did on Brexit in England. Have a vote on the issues, and I`m afraid we`re not going to have...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: ... down ticket on "Obama care" because premiums have doubled...
MATTHEWS: OK...
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: ... as Bill Clinton said, and it costs us half of the -- they`re going to vote on that which is their lunchbox issue. Who cares about...
MATTHEWS: Who`s going to win on the basis of that? Name me the senators who are going to...
HEWITT: Paul Ryan is going to win...
MATTHEWS: No, the senators...
HEWITT: Pat Toomey is going to win. Kelly Ayotte`s going to win. Richard Burr`s going to win. Joe Heck, the doctor, is going to win.
MATTHEWS: You`re just saying all the Republicans are going to win.
HEWITT: They are going to win. We`re going to hold the Senate.
MATTHEWS: All Republicans are going to win?
BERNARD: But you know what...
HEWITT: Not all. We`re not going to win Mark Kirk. Mark Kirk`s a dead man.
(CROSSTALK)
HEWITT: No, Mark Kirk is dead.
BERNARD: Well, he`s -- I`m glad that you`re excited to talk about Congress tonight, but we have to -- I mean, we have to focus on the presidency. We are the...
MATTHEWS: Who isn`t?
BERNARD: ... greatest nation -- well, Hugh right now wants to talk about members of Congress who are going -- you know, who are going to win their elections...
MATTHEWS: He`s salvaging. He`s riding the salvage vote!
BERNARD: He is salvaging...
(LAUGHTER)
BERNARD: I am going back...
MATTHEWS: He`s trying to save the -- I know...
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: I am going back...
MATTHEWS: Make your point.
BERNARD: ... to the presidency. If Donald Trump truly believed that this was coming and he`s been waiting for it and he was going to be prepared, he would have had evidence on his side, waiting for the day that these accusations were going to come forward.
I don`t for any stretch of the imagination believe that he thought this day was going to come.
MATTHEWS: OK...
BERNARD: And quite frankly, from a woman`s perspective, if you are an abuser -- and I said, "if" to be nice, but if you are an abuser, if you are someone who engages in predatory sexual behavior...
MATTHEWS: Right.
BERNARD: ... you never think that you`re going to get caught. And the reason you don`t think you`re going to get caught is because we live in a culture...
MATTHEWS: OK...
BERNARD: ... where women are not believed when they make these allegations.
MATTHEWS: Thank you. Thank you. That`s an argument. Anyway, thank you, Hugh Hewitt. I don`t think it`s that bad. Michelle Bernard, thank you.
Coming up -- first it was Michelle Obama, now President Obama is out on the takedown effort of Donald Trump. For the president and the first lady, this fight is personal. That`s clear. And they`re hoping to use their popularity with voters -- and by the way, the president`s going to reach 60 percent in a few weeks -- to defeat Trump and help Hillary Clinton over the finish line.
Plus, the new NBC battleground map shows big gains for Hillary Clinton in the last couple days and an erosion of support for Donald Trump even in states that traditionally vote Republican.
And at the end of what has been a dramatic week, the HARDBALL roundtable is here with three things about the presidential campaign you might not know.
And finally, big part of the show for me, "Let Me Finish" with something not having to do what`s going on in this depressing political campaign. It`s about Bob Dylan being a Nobel laureate for literature. I love it!
And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: NBC News has released the latest version of its battleground map, and things are moving in Hillary Clinton`s direction. Take a look at where things stand right now.
Here`s the states that are likely to go for Clinton or already leaning her way. It`s a total, by the way, of 287 electoral votes. That`s more than the 270 she needs to win the White House.
Look at this. Donald Trump has only 157 electoral votes in the current polling, down by more than 30 from last week. So he`s beginning to lose where he was.
And look at the states we`re calling toss-ups right now. You see some of the biggies are Florida and Ohio, but also some traditionally red states like Arizona, Georgia, and yes, Utah. They`re in the toss-up column. And when Utah`s in the toss-up column, look out on the right.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Well, this week, Hillary Clinton has lowered her profile, letting Donald Trump bask in the spotlight, if you will. Since last week`s debate, the campaign has taken a particularly acrimonious tone, don`t you think?
But two people have broken through the noise to deliver powerful messages, and they are two of Hillary`s most powerful surrogates, Barack and Michelle Obama. Yesterday, the first lady delivered an emotional and searing takedown of Donald Trump for his recent comments about women. Here`s a bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: It has shaken me to my core in a way that I couldn`t have predicted. The belief that you can do anything you want to a woman? It is cruel. It`s frightening. And the truth is, it hurts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Well, her powerful rebuke quickly went viral. And "The Washington Post" described the speech as a moment in which the country had never seen Michelle Obama like this, writing, quote, "Thursday brought out in Obama something different, something more personal, more passionate, more urgent." Sure sounded like that.
Anyway, today, on the heels of his wife`s speech, President Obama, in his own way, took on the Republican nominee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I noticed her opponent, he - -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s craven (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: He seems to be in the middle of a game making excuses all the time for why he might be losing. And it`s always interesting to me to see folks who talk tough, but then don`t act tough.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Because if you`re tough, you don`t make excuses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: It`s amazing. Everybody, I mean both political parties, whatever you think of them, all drop their Gs when they`re speaking to us like we need a little help with the language.
Anyway, for Barack and Michelle Obama, this campaign has become more than just politics, you could feel that. It`s become personal.
I`m joined right now by Colleen McCain Nelson from "The Wall Street Journal," and also Fred Hiatt. He`s the editor of "The Washington Post" editorial board.
Colleen, let me ask you about this. Why is it personal with Michelle Obama? Can you report why? Can you get into her head and heart?
COLLEEN MCCAIN NELSON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, she talked about how this kind of shook her to her core, the revelations of --
MATTHEWS: "Access Hollywood."
NELSON: -- kind of lewd remarks, and, I mean, she speaks as a mom, and it`s resonant. And it`s resonant in a way that it`s not when Hillary Clinton talks about being a mom and being a grandmother, but I think it`s also personal because of the birther issue. I mean, President Obama and Michelle Obama took that very personally. It resurfaced in recent weeks and --
MATTHEWS: You mean, being called an illegal alien while you`re in the White House?
NELSON: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
NELSON: And so that was very personal for them. And so you`ve seen a kind of a new energy, a new passion, from both of them in the last few days.
MATTHEWS: Last question along those lines. Do you think President Obama is counting the votes that are going to Trump and feeling every vote he gets is a shot against me and my legacy and my belief in America, really?
NELSON: That`s actually right. I mean, he sees --
MATTHEWS: He wants to reduce, not just defeat, but minimize the Trump vote.
NELSON: Exactly. I mean, he`s so offended by the potential of Donald Trump being the guy who could unravel any part of his legacy. And he thinks that he has worked so hard to do the right thing, he can`t imagine letting this guy unravel it. And so you hear that in his voice, when he says, come on, man. I mean, he basically says, this guy?
MATTHEWS: Well, this morning, Fred, I got up and watched your beautiful lead editorial in in "The Washington Post," which packs a wallop in this city and around the country. "The Washington Post" editorial board endorsed Hillary Clinton for President today.
In the editorial, "The Post" says, quote, "We are not making this endorsement simply because Ms. Clinton`s chief opponent is dreadful." Well, you made that point. They continue to say that, quote, she is "dogged, resilient, purposeful and smart, unlike Mr. Clinton or Mr. Bush when they ascended. She knows Washington, unlike Mr. Obama when he ascended. She has executive experience. She does not let her feelings get in the way of the job at hand. She is well positioned to get something done." "The Post" also concludes that, this year, "Eloquence and charm may matter less than policy chops and persistence."
You know, like most people who live in this city, I`m fascinated we`re getting something done. It`s often more important than ideology. And you point out, if Hillary Clinton doesn`t have pizzazz, you know, she does have the wonk`s ability to cut and have the chops to decide where the opportunity is. Like a lawyer, I can see where to cut there.
Explain why you have confidence that she can actually get immigration reforms, she can actually do something on infrastructure, she can do the important this things.
FRED HIATT, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, THE WASHINGTON POST: You know, Chris, I mean, this election has gotten so ugly, and it gets uglier every day and frightening that I think we do tend, sometimes, to lose sight of the fact that there is a well-qualified, well-prepared candidate.
And a lot of her past, I think -- we think on the editorial board, which doesn`t speak for the whole newspaper, as you know -- has prepared her for the kind of environment where you`ve got to work with the other side, where you`ve got to accept some incremental progress. You`re not going to have a revolution, but you fight every day to get something done.
MATTHEWS: Where in her past do you see that?
HIATT: I see --
MATTHEWS: The ability to do things with the other side?
HIATT: Well, certainly when she was elected to the Senate, I think a lot of people thought, there`s no way she`s going to work, especially with some of these Republicans who had just been impeaching her husband and trying her husband. And, you know, you talk to people in the Senate, including Republicans, they say she was businesslike. She didn`t hold grudges. She didn`t care that much about getting credit, and she wanted to get things done.
And I think the same in the State Department. You know, you talk to the professionals there. Like even the reset with Russia, which gets maligned so much, at the time, that was a reasonable thing to give a shot to, and she got something out of it.
MATTHEWS: On foreign policy, her Russian views. Do you think she`s more of a hawk than Obama, and is that a good thing?
HIATT: Well --
MATTHEWS: More hawkish, more active in the world?
HIATT: I would assume that the fact that they`re hacking her campaign and trying to get Putin elected is not --
MATTHEWS: You mean, trying to get Trump elected?
HIATT: Trying to get Trump elected is not endearing Putin to her. I think she is --
MATTHEWS: You mean, it`s a sign that they don`t want her as President?
HIATT: They don`t want her, that`s for sure. I think --
MATTHEWS: Because?
HIATT: Trump is Putin`s dream. Destroy NATO, end alliances, he admires dictators. And I think Clinton may be a little bit more than Obama, believes that the United States should be out there standing up for democratic values, liberal values.
MATTHEWS: Do you think Donald Trump -- there are a lot of things he doesn`t know, that`s pretty sure, like most people, but he has particular areas of vacancy. Do you think he knows how bad a guy Putin is? It`s just that, do you think he knows who he is up against? Because Fred, you lived over there. I mean, you know the Russian world over there. Do you think Trump knows it?
NELSON: He seems --
MATTHEWS: That these guys are not -- if not the enemy, they`re certainly a menace in many ways.
NELSON: He seems to be willfully ignorant about this. I think he`s chosen not to know more about foreign policy and, in particular, Russia and Putin, and so he has made a point to not delve into these intricacies.
HIATT: You know, I think it`s even more than that. You know, as you say, I`ve covered a lot of countries, dictatorships, democracies, everything in between. And the key thing to a democracy -- I mean, there`s really two things that are key. You have an election and the loser acknowledges that they lost, and the winner lets the loser survive for another day, right? And Trump is challenging both of those things. He`s saying, if I lose, it`s not legitimate. And if I win, I`m going to lock her up. So --
MATTHEWS: That`s what we`ve been saying on this show for days now. He --
HIATT: This is the Putin model. I mean, it`s not democracy. And I think that`s why he`s so dangerous, and I think it`s why he doesn`t see Putin as a bad guy.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Bhutto lost an election in Pakistan, they hanged him.
HIATT: Exactly.
MATTHEWS: That`s the Trump approach, apparently. Anyway, thank you so much, Fred Hiatt. Very important endorsement, top of the fold there right there, right up there. Anyway, thank you.
HIATT: Thanks, Chris.
MATTHEWS: And, Colleen, as always. Colleen McCain Nelson and Fred Hiatt.
Up next, Donald Trump is lashing out at the press, so he sent a vitriol towards the media now is making some reporters a little worried. Apparently, when he points the finger at the evil media, some of his people out there, some of the people that some call -- I think Hillary calls them deplorables pay attention. It`s not too happy there. And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The lies, corruption, and false accusations of the crooked Hillary Clinton campaign and the mainstream media, which they control and use quite viciously.
It`s a disgraceful thing that you can be on the front page of the failing "New York Times" -- and it is a failing newspaper. Third-rate people, I`m telling you. Third-rate, bad people. Bad people. Sick people.
The establishment and their media enablers wield control over this nation through means that are very well known. Anyone who challenges their control is deemed a sexist, a racist, a xenophobe, and morally deformed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: You can`t beat that. Welcome back to HARDBALL. That was Donald Trump lashing out at the media, and as Trump denounces the press, his supporters are following his lead. Campaign reporters traveling with Trump yesterday tweeted about their experience at a rally in Florida and also one in Ohio yesterday.
NBC`s own Hallie Jackson tweeted, "Traveling press files into seats at Trump rally in Cincinnati. Crowd boos lustily upon their arrival."
The "L.A. Times`" Seema Mehta tweeted, "Press at Trump evening rally getting escorted to motorcade under watch of cops in riot gear per pool. This is getting increasingly scary."
"Yahoo! News`" Holly Bailey tweeted, "as Trump attacks press today, there is notably more security around media assembled here," while "The Washington Post`s" Jose del Rio tweeted, "The vitriol toward the media here is as bad as I`ve ever seen it. Boos and cursing and middle fingers as soon as traveling press walked in."
And one television reporter made an unfortunate discovery at the event. This is CNN`s Jim Acosta.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: One Donald Trump supporter left this sign on a press table in the press pen. It shows a swastika and the word "media." It is shaping up to just be a race to the bottom in the final weeks of this campaign, Wolf, and it is, at times, just getting downright scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEWS: Downright scary. Let`s bring in the HARDBALL round table. John Stanton is Washington bureau chief for BuzzFeed, and Francesca Chambers, White House Correspondent for the "Daily Mail," and Michael Steel is a Republican strategist.
I want to go to you, John. Are you afraid of these people?
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Because Trump is apparently siccing the crowd, if you will, on the reporters.
JOHN STANTON, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, BUZZFEED: Yes.
MATTHEWS: You know, it is something we`ve seen on T.V. He does it over and over again. These people are scum, basically, over and over, and the crowd, they know they`re talking about the people in the room, not off somewhere.
STANTON: Yes, yes. Well, the weird thing about announcers, when you go to a Trump rally, the people that you talk to, you know, before he comes on and does his little schtick, everyone`s very nice to us. They let you do interviews. They don`t have -- there`s no, you know, screw you, you`re media, or punching anybody or anything like that, generally speaking, before.
And recently, we started to have some people heckling folks, particularly the T.V. people when they`re doing standups before a rally starts. It`s kind of during the rally when things get really, really ugly. And that`s - -
MATTHEWS: Is he hopping people up?
STANTON: He is, he is. And he`s spinning people up. And I mean, you know, we see it on Twitter and probably, Francesca and I both --
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Do you think he`s issuing a license, Francesca? Is he licensing people, if you will, it`s okay to yell epithets and give the finger at the --
FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, DAILY MAIL: Well, he keeps bringing it up during his speeches, and he`s certainly not telling them to stop. And I almost exclusively covered Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton and the Clintons, but you don`t see this sort of thing happening at Hillary Clinton rallies.
And she`s also not getting up on stage blaming the media, for instance, for WikiLeaks and anything bad that happens to her with her e-mails or anything to that effect. And so I think that`s part of the reason why you don`t see the same hatred.
MATTHEWS: Yes. But to be fair, you pick up a major newspaper in New York, like "The New York Times," and every day, there`s five or six stories against him.
CHAMBERS: Mm-hm. But that is not to say that there`s not --
MATTHEWS: Well, I mean, not five or six stories.
STANTON: Yes, but --
CHAMBERS: -- that there`s not stories against her either.
MICHAEL STEEL, FORMER JOHN BOEHNER SPOKESPERSON: First, I mean --
MATTHEWS: Like, there are innumerable accounts of why Trump`s no good in the major newspapers.
STEEL: First, they`re there for a reason. There`s an issue with making sure the reporters can do their job safely. There`s a bigger issue, which is the fact that he`s losing. He knows he`s losing and he`s laying the predicate to try to make, for his supporters, at least, the results of the election invalid. And that`s terrifying.
MATTHEWS: We just heard a moment ago, Fred and Colleen were talking there about how, in third world countries, any developing -- that even in Russia, big country he`s been around a long time, the trick is, if you`re going to lose, blame it on a rigged system. And then if you win, you arrest your opponent to make sure there`s no more elections for a while.
Anyway, let`s take a look at this scuffle that occurred down in Greensboro, North Carolina, between a protester -- look at this. Look at this thing. Look at what`s going on here, a protester and a Trumpian. I think the Trumpian did the work there on that guy. Jesus. There`s a certain physicality here that`s not part of American politics.
STANTON: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Usually, people just, they yell at each other. They curse each other, at the worse.
STEEL: And that`s always been part of the Trump thing, the, you know, throw him out of here, get him out of here, I want to punch that guy. It`s always been part of his schtick, and it`s --
STANTON: Yes. Well, and again, I think what the -- the biggest concern to me is not the individual people. The individual people are just, generally speaking, like I said, very friendly and, you know, willing to talk to you.
It`s when that mob mentality -- he knows how to tap into the anger and frustration that these people have and then he turns it. And when he turns it on Hillary, Hillary`s not in the room. When he turns it on, you know, the establishment, the establishment`s not in the room.
But when he turns it on us, we`re standing there. And oftentimes, you know, we`re surrounded on all sides by the protesters, and there`s, you know, two secret service agents standing there, maybe two local cops, and that`s it. And, you know, some of the stuff, like I said, on Twitter has become part of the fold.
MATTHEWS: Did you ever feel like a scapegoat there?
STANTON: Yes. I mean, it`s always a scapegoat, right? He feels like, there`s a story that comes out, he looks bad, so he blames up. And everybody just turns around and boos and, you know, say horrible things.
MATTHEWS: Did you ever get scared at one of these things, physically scared?
CHAMBERS: No. Me, personally not, but I haven`t seen the same behavior that you`re describing quite often because I`ve mostly been covering Democrats for the last year and not as much Republicans.
But what I will also say is, you`re talking about the mob mentality, and the major question, I think, moving forward is whether all these people are going to come out and vote for him, whether he`s going to really energize them, and at the same --
MATTHEWS: Right.
CHAMBERS: And at the same time, the Clintons are worried -- the Clinton camp is worried that all of this negative stuff that we`re hearing is going to depress turnout on their side. That people are just going to get really frustrated by this whole thing and say, this whole process is disgusting, I`m done, and, as she said, maybe just go watch cat videos instead.
MATTHEWS: Well, I hate to break it to you, but I think that most of the Trump people would like to have ten votes to vote so they could vote against Hillary. And some of the people voting for Hillary, some of them, would like to have half a vote to vote for her. The enthusiasm thing is not balanced.
Look at the faces of this people. You can call them deplorables, whatever you want, that will just make some more people to --
CHAMBERS: But you also have to turn those people out. You have to have a good get out to vote operation and that --
MATTHEWS: The ones at the rallies will show up.
STEEL: Yes.
CHAMBERS: And the ones at the rallies will show up, but that`s not everybody in America that you would need to vote for him. And so they have to be very strategically building up --
MATTHEWS: Yes, but isn`t there a lot more -- just to be fair, isn`t there a lot more oomph, Michael, in voting for Trump, a lot more statement there?
STEEL: Yes. I mean, the presence of the people --
MATTHEWS: If you vote for Trump, you`re saying something for life.
STEEL: The people who are excited about him are excited to vote for him because they think he represents change.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
STEEL: And two-thirds of the country thinks we`re on the wrong track. People want change. They hate the Washington establishment, and nobody embodies that better than Hillary Clinton.
MATTHEWS: Well, the round table is staying with us. I thought that was a very smart thing, she embodies Washington and the success of the Washington establishment in ruling this country.
Up next, these three will tell me something I don`t know. This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
And, John, tell me something I don`t know.
JOHN STANTON, BUZZFEED: Well, what I would say that you don`t know is I`m re-reading a book from 1991 race and what it will tell you and certainly I think a lot of your viewers is that the race problem in this country is the exact same as it was then. That we are still -- it`s almost like reading an account that was just written yesterday. And it`s a little terrifying that we have not gotten anywhere in, you know, 15 years. In 25 years.
MATTHEWS: It seems like that in Chicago.
STANTON: Yeah.
MATTHEWS: Francesca?
FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, THE DAILY MAIL: Well, this week, there were news stories about how Bill Clinton seemingly referred to Donald Trump supporters as rednecks, but he told me that`s not what I was saying at all. And the explainer in chief explained to me what a difference between a redneck and a hillbilly is, which I will now share with you.
A redneck --
MATTHEWS: Jeff Foxworthy --
CHAMBERS: A redneck would be somebody like him. He said he was a redneck and he was very proud of that, because rednecks are somebody who comes from the South.
And if you are a hillbilly, you`re someone who comes from a state that has mountains, instead. His state is both southern and it has mountains, so they have hillbillies and they also have rednecks, but he was not calling Donald Trump`s supporters rednecks.
MATTHEWS: What did he mean when he used the word, though?
CHAMBERS: When he used the word, he meant that he, himself, is a redneck, because he is a Southern Protestant white working class voter.
MATTHEWS: Where`s it come from, redneck?
CHAMBERS: Originally? I`m not --
MATTHEWS: It`s from working the fields. Sunburn on the back of your neck.
Anyway, John -- I mean, Michael.
MICHAEL STEEL, FORMER JOHN BOEHNER SPOKESMAN: Fellow of the Georgetown Institute of Politics this semester and I asked my kids this question. They had four different dorm rooms and there`s no plaque to commemorate those dorm rooms. They`re still in use by regular students.
MATTHEWS: Not like.
Anyway, Fred Hyatt -- it`s not Fred Hyatt, it`s Michael Steel, Francesca Chambers and John Stanton. Obviously, we made some changers here.
Coming up next, we`ve been watching the presidential campaign go to a much darker place this week. We want to bring you an uplifting story. This is an upbeat story. You can take it. You haven`t had one in a while. And that`s ahead.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: We`re now just five days away from the third and final presidential debate. And you can watch it all right here Wednesday night coming up on MSNBC. I`ll be in Las Vegas starting at 7:00 Eastern with a special edition of HARDBALL that night. And then, Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow will join us at 8:00. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump take the debate stage at 9:00 Eastern.
And then, stay with us all night for a complete coverage. We love to do this. We`ll be there for you. That`s Wednesday night here on MSNBC.
And we`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.
As a young adventurer, Richard Blum learned early in his life that millions of people around the world who have been born to economic hardship have little prospect at changing their lives. So, he`s used his business skills for global development. He became a living philanthropist, pioneering new ways to reduce the burden of poverty around the world.
His new book, "An Accident of Geography", is about the work that people like Sir Edmund Hillary and former President Jimmy Carter and the Dalai Lama have done to bring transformational change to developing countries and how others can follow their example.
I`m joined right now by himself, the author, Richard Blum, who`s also a husband to U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein of California.
Dick, thanks for joining us.
You know, your life is a mixture of adventure and doing good. And I was just thinking how different you are from Donald Trump. Because Donald Trump says, if you`re rich, flaunt it. Flaunt your money. And only worry about the United States.
You, on the other hand, have used your business know-how to focus on the world and developing it, you know, and also, worried about more than a world than just us. There is a bigger world out there. Trump seems to only think about the United States.
RICHARD BLUM, AUTHOR, "AN ACCIDENT OF GEOGRAPHY": I think he couldn`t be more wrong. For us not to worry about the rest of the world, one, it`s the right thing to do. And two, it`s in our interests.
And to not try to build friendships and help develop in places like Nepal, where I`ve been going for 49 years, but also in Latin America and our center at Berkeley, the Blum Center for Developing Economies have kids that have been to 80 different countries.
And what you want to do is make friends. Maybe it`s one by one. It`s to take a village, one by one.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
BLUM: And, by the way, where you make the friendships is on the ground.
A lot of these countries, you may not like the governments, you know, Nepal is not a particularly good government. A lot of corruption there. We don`t bother with the government. We go right to the villages.
And I would say, just using Nepal as an example, you`ve had Peace Corps kids there for over 60 years, you have trekkers who are by and large are well-received. You have people like our American Himalayan Foundation which touches 400,000 lives.
And, by the way, one of the things that we do, we started with Ed Hillary and the Sherpas, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan refugees. Our biggest project today is to keeping from young girls from being sold into prostitution. And I can`t think of a worse example for how you treat women or how you may influence young men the wrong way than what Donald Trump is doing.
MATTHEWS: Yes. Let me ask you about this amazing ability to mix ad vent you are with doing good in this world. It`s not just consuming wealth. It`s about enjoying the world we live in. I was in the Peace Corps in Africa for two years. I (INAUDIBLE) over Africa. I had a great time, you know, working with small business guys doing good work.
You`ve been able to do it all. You`ve been having adventure as well as doing good. That`s a good combination.
BLUM: Well, I think you had an adventure, too. And by the way, all this is an adventure. And we have, as I said, kids that have been to 80 different countries out of Berkeley and we`re now in all ten campuses. We do work with George Soros and the Central European University in Budapest. And for me, every day is an adventure. You get out of bed and there is something you can do.
MATTHEWS: What`s -- because you`re focused on this human trafficking. My wife is involved in that and talks about it with me a lot. What`s going on? Are women -- is this like slavery? What goes on with these young women or women?
BLUM: It`s slavery or worse. We have some we have now 15,000 young women in school being saved from being sold in Nepal. I would say for the first ten years we were over there, I was unaware of the problem.
And, by the way, you say, 15,000, you must be making a difference. There`s 20,000 people, just from a little country like Nepal, these girls, they go across the border into India and their families never see them again.
But, you know, I live in San Francisco. You don`t need to go to Nepal to find it. Oakland is full of trafficking. It is -- I understand now -- the second largest criminal endeavor in the United States.
MATTHEWS: How does it work? People bring people this as servants or prostitutes? How do they get them in?
BLUM: It`s a con game. First of all, the people that work for the government are in on it. They get paid off. So, somebody comes along and these tend to be low caste Hindu women. We have a husband for you or we have a good job for you in India. And they collect these girls and they wind up in the brothels and can`t get out.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask but a guy I used to work for, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton, Clinton Foundation gets a lot of hits for conflicts and everything. What is your experience with working with these former presidents around the world?
BLUM: I love them both. I`ve been on Jimmy Carter`s board for about 15 years. I have been everywhere with him in Africa. By the way, we never go to any place that`s any good. What he`s often doing is chasing the last guinea worm. He`s basically had a lot to do with wiping out two diseases, guinea worm and river blindness and some other ones.
And when you go around Africa and hear people speak about Jimmy Carter, nobody in this country has a better reputation in Africa than Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter is 91.
MATTHEWS: He is amazing.
BLUM: And we need -- by the way, I am involved in the Clinton Foundation. Yes, I give Clinton Foundation money. I know what they do. And they do an enormous amount of good work.
MATTHEWS: Yes, my son worked for him in Rwanda and making sure the aids, the medicines didn`t get in the wrong hands over there. That`s an important job to do.
Anyway, thank you.
BLUM: That`s number one --
MATTHEWS: "An Accident of Geography" by Richard Blum. Thank you, sir.
When we return, let me finish with my thoughts on Bob Dylan who this week was awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature.
You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Let me finish with something that not this depressing political campaign.
I have long belief, felt really, that our homegrown politicians are often not the best of us. By that, I`m referring to those other people who get us to think more clearly and at a higher elevation, who truly lead us, raise our sense of what it means to be a human being.
I`ll give you a couple names. One is Winston Churchill who stood against worst nemesis of the 20th century and for many frightening months did it alone, and yes, even without us.
The other, a different kind of leader, is Earnest Hemingway. And like Tom sort of getting others to whitewash that fence by saying it was cool to do it, Hemingway got us all convinced it was cool to drive an ambulance in World War I and getting shot doing it. Living in Paris in the 1920s. Being an aficionado of the bull fights, tracking big game in East Africa, marlin fishing off Cuba and let`s not forget writing.
How many of us still want to write the great American novel because Ernest wrote one, "The Sun Also Rises".
Both men, Churchill and Hemingway, were given the Nobel Prize for literature and yesterday, these two men were joined in that honor by another leader of another kind -- Bob Dylan, the author of "Rolling Stone", "Blowing in the Wind", "The Times They are Achanging", and how about, "It Ain`t Me, Babe".
All the times I listened to that song, I thought it was a rejected lover, someone the singer didn`t want or couldn`t make a commitment to. Well, maybe not. Some believe it was Dylan`s way of saying to all of us that he didn`t want the burden of being a laureate of the left, a reliable troubadour for the latest liberal doctrine.
"I`m an entertainer", I can remember him saying and figured what he was saying, he knew people believed in his words of his songs for civil rights and against the Vietnam War, but they were also enjoying them, enjoying listening to them and, of course, getting to feel them along with him. They enjoyed being on what they judged to be, of course, the right side. I got it then, I get it now.
A lot of getting Dylan comes from when you grew up. I grew up on campus when all this happened, when the anti-war movement led the edge to life. I was over in Africa in the Peace Corps when I heard "Nashville Skyline", when an English girl brought it back from school with her.
Bill Clinton`s another member of my generation, who speaks with authority on the real and deep connection between our music and our politics. His and mine. Quote, this is Clinton, "If you look back on the `60s," he once said, "and on balance you think there was more good than harm, then you`re probably a Democrat. If you think there was more harm than good, you`re probably a Republican." That is Clinton.
And I couldn`t agree more and you probably agree too.
I was there when Bob Dylan was awarded the Kennedy Center honors. I was sitting way in the back seats. When it was time for Dylan to be recognized and all the stiffs in the expensive seats sat there doing nothing, like stiffs, I stood and cheered. And so, I do it again today.
The Nobel Prize for Literature goes to Mr. Bob Dylan of the United States of America.
And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END