All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 09/02/15

Liz Mair, Sarah Isgur Flores, Chip Englander, Peter Moskos, Sherrod Brown


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN –

attacked has gone down. Let`s see what happens here.

HAYES: The oppo dump on Donald Trump continues as Trump scolds Jeb
Bush for speaking Spanish.

TRUMP: Jeb Bush is a low energy person.

HAYES: Tonight, the new attack on Trump over his relationship with
Reverend Al Sharpton. Our guest, the Reverend Al Sharpton.

Then, Democrats give peace a chance. The incredible victory for Obama
on Iran as the pushback gets even more vicious.

Iran causes is now on Barack Obama`s head.

HAYES: And the conservative chorus over Black Lives Matter.

country are feeling the assault.

HAYES: As news breaks in Baltimore, a reminder of why all this

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Do you believe the Black Lives Matter crew
and other radicals are igniting violence against cops?

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening. I`m Chris Hayes.

A new level of desperation from the GOP today as it tries to stop the
Donald Trump phenomenon. The Republican National Committee circulating a
loyalty pledge to GOP presidential candidates obtained by “The New York
Times” which asks the candidates to agree to not run as an independent if
they do not win the nomination.

The idea appears to be to try to put Trump in a difficult position.
He would either have to join his fellow candidates and sign the pledge or
risk officially being branded as disloyal to his own party. But here`s the
thing, disloyalty to the Republican Party hasn`t been much of a problem for
Donald Trump so far.

Trump`s opponents and much of the conservative media have been
shouting from the rafters that Trump is not a true conservative, and
certainly not a good Republican. This is a guy they note that donated to
Democrats, that called Hillary Clinton a terrific woman, that used to be
pro-choice, that has called for huge tax increases, that likes single-payer
health care, that even the conservative “National Review” reports is, gasp,
buddies with Reverend Al Sharpton. I`ll talk to the rev about that
supposed friendship in just a moment.

The candidate who has been lately leading the charge on claims that
Trump isn`t conservative is Jeb Bush, who released a video yesterday,
spotlighting Trump`s past liberal comments, and today put out a “which
candidate are you” quiz that ends with the partisan either being told that
they should support, quote, “conservative reformer Jeb Bush or
alternatively, back Trump”, but only because they have, quote, “clear
Democratic tendencies.”


BUSH: His own words were that the single-payer idea is a great idea.
Well, most conservatives find that to be perhaps the worst alternative. I
mean, this is not a guy who is a conservative.


HAYES: That was Bush yesterday in Miami where he alternated between
speaking Spanish and English, and speaking to reporters. Trump pounced on
that back today, telling Breitbart that Bush, quote, “should really set the
example by speaking English while in the United States.”

That brings us to a pretty amazing new poll findings. Trump`s
favorability rating among whites is now about even with 48 percent viewing
him favorably and 49 percent unfavorably. But among nonwhites, Trump`s
favorability rating is just 17 percent, his unfavorability, a whopping 79
percent. That`s an absolute nightmare for GOP trying to stay viable as a
national party in presidential elections.

But if Jeb Bush and his fellow Republicans think they can make Trump
go away by questioning his conservative bona fides, it might be time to
come one a new plan. As “The Huffington Post” notes, a new poll shows just
how much Americans` policy opinions depend on the politician endorsing
them, as opposed to their actual ideology.

For the poll, Americans were asked about a variety of policy issues
with one important caveat. Before they were asked their position, they
were told a certain politician, say, President Obama, supported that
decision. The results were fascinating. Considering universal health
care, when Republicans were told President Obama supports universal health
care, only 16 percent say they support it as well. When Republicans are
told that Trump supports universal health care, suddenly 44 percent of
Republicans do too.

Among Democrats, this dynamic was reversed. The polling suggests that
for many Americans, it is the politician and the party and their
associations, not the position, that makes the difference.

And that would seem to be especially true for Trump who`s appealed is
almost entirely divorced from any notion of ideological consistency.

Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Michael Steele, former
chairman of the Republican National Committee, as well as Republican
strategist Liz Mair.

Michael, this entire thing that I`ve seen conservative media and other
candidates hammering on, just seems to me a false errand. Maybe I`m wrong.

But the idea that you`re going to point out some heterodoxies or
heresies –


HAYES: – or ways he violates the conservative code is going to put a
dent in the phenomenon of Donald Trump seems really wrongheaded. Am I

STEELE: Not really. I think it`s a little bit more nuanced in the
sense that we`ll see whether or not what you just described holds up as
more and more voters begin to settle into really watching and learning and
looking each of these candidates, starting with the debate in a week or so
out in California.

But I think in large measure, you`re right. They`ve sort of liked the
way Donald Trump has had to say. They like the way he`s saying it.

And I think in terms of the orthodoxy, for many folks, that may or may
not have been part of the problem, is that this guy is going beyond that.
That it`s not boiling down to some litmus test ideology, but he is prepared
to go out and fight for the same things that they arguably want to see
someone fight for.

HAYES: Which is making America great again and it says it on his hat.


HAYES: As one participated said.

Well, Liz, let me ask you this. When you think about orthodoxy, when
you think about what is the consensus of the Republican Party, which, we
should be clear, has a pretty robust consensus on a whole variety of
issues, from repealing Obamacare to opposing the Iran deal. My sense is
that a lot of that comes from the donor class as opposed to the base. And
that`s part of what`s being exploited here.

LIZ MAIR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think there`s not as much
consistency in the Republican Party as perhaps it looks on the outside of
it. I do think when you`re talking about within conservatism, there is a
greater degree of consistency. And, clearly, Donald Trump is out of step
with a lot of conservative policy stances, right?

I think going back to the point about the Jeb Bush video and the
attacks, I think that there is one in there that particularly is likely to
stick. If you go and you look at that, Bloomberg, Purple Strategies focus
group that was done of Trump favorable voters up in New Hampshire, you see
that they don`t care about him donating to Democrats, they don`t care about
him saying nice things about Hillary Clinton. They don`t care about him
flip-flopping on things like abortion.

What they do care about, though, they do not like the single-payer
thing. They do not like the socialized medicine thing.

So, you know, if I had been advising the Bush team on that video, I
would have said hit that point harder, drop a lot of the rest of it,
because while I think there are a lot of people who consider themselves
loyal Republicans who don`t necessarily like those aspects about Trump,
that`s not necessarily that the Trump voters themselves care about.

HAYES: That`s –

MAIR: They don`t like the single-payer and they don`t like the
socialized medicine support.

HAYES: That`s an interesting point. It also brings up the point
about in terms of the flip-flops, Michael, which is that, you know, there
is a model for how to go about, essentially getting rid of your old
ideological baggage. And that model is in the last Republican nominee who
successfully ran through a primary field, which is Mitt Romney who had all
sorts of thing hung around his neck, including support for an Obamacare
style health care program in his home state that had his name that he was
successfully at least in the primary able to distance himself from or flip-
flop on or change directions enough that he escaped unscathed.

STEELE: Well, not exactly. I think a lot of folks, when you look
back at what Trump is doing, the difference is Romney didn`t own it. Trump
is owning it. In fact, in many cases, he is doubling down on it.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: So for a lot of the activists who are now calling themselves
Trumpers or Trumpites, and jumping on that bandwagon, they like that. They
like that consistency, that authenticity that says, I`m going to be honest
with you. And I`m not going to flip-flop and change, you know, or run away
from a state of perspective or point of view.

Now, again, as this thing settles down with a lot of the voters who
are actually going to be voting, in Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina,
Nevada, in the month of February, that may change a little bit, the dynamic
of how Trump actually runs his campaign.

HAYES: Liz, there`s a meeting tomorrow apparently with Trump and
Reince Priebus in New York City. There is this pledge that`s being
circulated, according to the report from “The New York Times”. The problem
with that strikes me with Republican Party is at the same time, they don`t
want to alienate him. They don`t want to keep this bargaining chip that
he`s going to run as an independent.

But you saw those favorables/unfavorables among nonwhite voters. To
the degree they keep him close, they also, it seems, incur a little bit of
that political damage.

MAIR: I mean, theoretically, that`s possible. I don`t really know
how all of this is going to play out. It`s very hard to tell. Obviously,
there are people who are primarily in the donor class who are very
concerned about this. And have obviously been making their views known to
the RNC, and I imagine that that`s where this is coming from. I also
imagine that the reason that this is being covered from “The New York
Times,” and conservative media is that the RNC may not want to overly flag
with whatever they`re doing with Trump with regard to people who can
potentially be a little more interested in him.

But, yes, I don`t know – I mean, we don`t have a blue print for
knowing how the party or how the conservative movement deals with a
candidate like Trump. So, a lot of this is gong to be trial and error and
throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. And we just will.

HAYES: Well, he has a reputation for being a tough negotiator.

Michael Steele and Liz Mair, thank you both.

The conservative “National Review” yesterday posted what was meant to
be a bombshell, a story laying out Donald Trump and Al Sharpton`s alleged,
unlikely friendship, which claims Trump was one of the top donors to
Sharpton`s National Youth Movement. Sharpton says he`s never received
financial support from Trump though the two did have a personal

And who better to tell us what that relationship was than the man
himself, Reverend Al Sharpton, host of MSNBC`s “POLITICS NATION”, founder
and president of the National Action Network.

You and Donald Trump, best of buds?

AL SHARPTON, HOST, POLITICS NATION: Yes, right. To me, the story and
all of the, he was close to Hillary and all that, it shows a desperate
attempt for them to really deal with something that they can`t deal. With
I met Donald Trump first because I marched on him around the Central Park
jogger case in the 1990, 1991. And then later when Don King and Mike Tyson
decided to do fights in the casinos, I would see him. And we got to talk
like the casino owners in Las Vegas, if you go to a fight.

And I think that he came to one or two of our functions of National
Action Network as built, because he was friends with Don King and he wanted
James Brown to perform. There was no relationship. I don`t even know that
he wrote a check for the (INAUDIBLE) that I`ve done, that they have the

But I think what is really the bombshell here is how desperate they
are. I mean, Dr. Ben Carson spoke at National Action Network Convention
this year. I mean, this – the day after Bernie Sanders and O`Malley
spoke. So, are they going on use that picture? George Bush had me in the
White House several times when he was president. Are they going to use

So I think they really underestimate the intelligence of their own
voters. But having said that, I`m no defender at Donald Trump at all.
I`ve attacked from day one as you know everything he`s come out with to the
point where he called me once and we sat out. I`m no racist. I said but
this birther thing that you`re running is certainly racial in terms of what
I see and in terms of what a lot of people see. Then he goes on, Sharpton
apologized for calling him a racist.

One, I never apologized. Second, I never called him a racist. But
that`s Trump.

HAYES: Let me say this – this is – but, that`s, see, the thing I
find fascinating, because I grew up in New York City. I lived in the Bronx
in the `80s. You know, when I was growing up, when I would go to the bus,
to wait for the bus. There`s “The Daily News” and “The New York Post”, and
my whole childhood, it was you, Donald Trump, Leona Helmsley.

SHARPTON: That`s right.

HAYES: And you came up in a media environment that Donald Trump came
up in, which is a very unforgiving one, where you learn a set of tools that
I feel like you are watching Donald Trump apply in a way that the national
media is not ready for.

SHARPTON: And I watch him because I`ve seen him do that. In New
York, you tend to have larger than life figures. You`re in a larger than
life city. So, you competing with Times Square, Broadway, all of that.
You have to do things, which my activism had to develop differently than a
lot of others in civil rights because I`m competing in a city where you
have to get attention on your issue.

HAYES: You know what it is like to be in a crowded field.

SHARPTON: A crowded field with lights that are going off in every
direction. And I`m trying to say, but wait a minute. Look at the
unemployment. Look at the education. Look at police brutality for a long
time. Trump was doing this about his brand. I always saw him as a
businessman. A guy doing business because he wanted the boxing matches in
Atlantic City as opposed to Las Vegas.

To be buddies, if he was a buddy of mine, I missed the friendship.
I`ve gone to dinner, Bill O`Reilly tells a famous story, he went to service
with me, and was surprised people weren`t break dancing. Are we buddies?
And he attacks me almost as much as he clear his throat.

HAYES: Well, here`s the thing. I mean, you can do – you can do a
lot of people in the Republican establishment a favor. Could you end the
campaign right now in our program with a full throat endorsement of Donald
Trump for president? If you want to do it, I`m opening this hour –

SHARPTON: I will wait for him to win the nomination, once he`s the
nominee, then I will embrace him. And talk about how he not only was my
buddy but he helped strategize all the things we did over the last 20 years
around these things.

I promise you that I know when not to drop the bomb. The bomb will
not drop until he`s the nominee. But we`re dealing in a political

HAYES: You hold the power in your hand.

Reverend, it`s always good to see you.

SHARPTON: Thank you.

HAYES: I`m looking forward to Sunday mornings.

SHARPTON: Oh, yes.

HAYES: Coming up, I`ll talk to the Rand Paul and Carly Fiorina
campaigns about their strategies for avoiding a Trump eclipse.

Plus, a major win for Obama as the Iran deal reaches its 34th vote.
The fight is not over yet. I`ll explain ahead.

And later, a look at the ongoing Black Lives Matter backlash, with yet
another Republican presidential candidate linking President Obama and
violence against police officers.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, you didn`t think you would get away with
this interview without me asking you point-blank, are you going to run for

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I`m not running and I`m not
going to run.


HAYES: One of the fixed, constants since the early days of the 2016
cycle has been Elizabeth Warren`s insistence that she is not running for
president. Lo and behold, she is not. The question has been asked and
answered over and over, and each time she said no. Not running, not going
to run and that definite and explicit no she`s given in the past makes what
she said today so tantalizing.

Today, during a live stream interview with the Josh Miller of “The
Boston Globe,” the subject turned to a lunch that Senator Warren had with
the vice president a few weeks ago, with a rumor Biden run in the works,
Miller asked Warren if talk of a join ticket was discussed. Warren`s
answer was less than definitive and explicit.


JOSH MILLER, THE BOSTON GLOBE: Talk with the vice president of a
joint ticket even jokingly?

WARREN: It was not – it was a long conversation.


HAYES: And that answer could cause many more long conversations.


HAYES: Whether they like it or not and they don`t, Republican
presidential candidates other than Donald Trump have a major hurdle to
overcome, how to break out of the pack. So far, those candidates have been
largely unsuccessful.

A couple of arguable exceptions, Ben Carson and Carly Fiorina with
rising poll numbers and a certain outsider status to rival that of the
billionaire real estate mogul. They`ve performed fairly well in polling
since the first Republican debate.

Others like Senator Rand Paul who initially showed such promise as an
atypical Republican have simply gotten not much traction. Just yesterday,
one of those Trump challengers got some good by changing the rules
governing admittance to the next debate on September, CNN paved the way fro
Carly Fiorina to join other top tier candidates, including Mr. Trump.

Joining me now, Sarah Isgur Flores, deputy campaign manager of Carly
for president.

So, are – is your candidate going to be an advocate for all those
she`s left behind at the so-called kids table in the other debate, now that
she`s made it up and out?

SARAH ISGUR FLORES, CARLY FOR PRESIDENT: Carly is solidly in the top
ten in every poll in the last month. She`s number three in New Hampshire.
Number three in Iowa. She earned her spot on the main debate stage and
we`re very pleased, thankful that CNN and the RNC wanted a fair debate

HAYES: Isn`t fair though? I mean, this whole thing seems like so ad
hoc and fluid. And I understand why you guys are argued for. But like
what is the reason for not just letting everyone on the stage?

FLORES: I mean, that to some extent is up to the RNC and CNN. I
think our point was that CNN`s process didn`t make a lot of sense anymore.
What they were doing was taking a whole bunch of polls from July and then
only three polls from August. So, it`s heavily weighted to the July
polling. So, I think this is a more fair way to break it up.

HAYES: The president as you know is in Alaska, the first president to
visit above the Arctic today. And I wanted to ask you about his Fiorina`s
views on climate change, particularly as the president puts a spotlight on
this. I`ll play you a little sound from Carly Fiorina on the issue. Take
a listen.


tell us that this – that global warming is real, that it`s manmade, also
tell us that it will take three decades, trillions of dollars and a
coordinated global effort.

What do you suppose the chances of that happening are? Do you suppose
China is ready to sign up for that? Suppose Brazil is ready to sign up?
Suppose Europe is ready? None of them are prepared to sign up and, by the
way, no one is willing to spend the trillions and trillions of dollars.


HAYES: That strikes me as a remarkable thing for a Republican, a
believer in American exceptionalism to say, that there is this huge
pressing challenge, a really big thing that the world has to come together
in. And it is not going to happen. So what? So what do we do?

FLORES: I think her point is that liberals have been willing to
sacrifice jobs, people`s livelihoods on the name of ideology rather than
actually explaining to people what it would take to make a difference.
Liberals don`t explain that. All they do is destroy a lot of jobs in order
to say they`re doing something.

HAYES: What jobs destroyed? Solar is one of the fastest employers on
all of America right now. You want to tell all those people installing
rooftops solar, their jobs are being sacrificed.

FLORES: I would recommend Carly`s book to you where she talks about
all the jobs in Mendota, California, in particular. This is a state that
has 100 or so billionaires and the highest poverty rates in the nation.
And some of that is largely due to these environmental policies. It is
what has led to this drought being so bad. And yes, it has caused massive
destruction in some of these communities in the Central Valley.

HAYES: I`m sorry, that`s not making a lot of sense. The drought has
been exacerbated as every scientist will say by global climate change.

FLORES: The drought has been exacerbated because liberals in
California haven`t been willing to build a reservoir in 30 years. If they
were willing to capture some of the rain water in years where there was
more rain water, then the drought wouldn`t be as bad on years when there is
drought, which is fairly common in California actually.

HAYES: This is – this drought is not common, though, you would
admit, right? These are the five driest years since they`ve been keeping
track since 1860.

FLORES: California has droughts fairly frequently and for 30 years –

HAYES: But historic droughts?

FLORES: – they haven`t been storing the rain water.

HAYES: Five worst years. I`m not making that up. That`s not like
some invention of the evil liberals. It is literally the five driest years
in the history of California. Those are the facts on the table. And Carly
Fiorina is from California.

FLORES: I hear you. But do you also hear me that they haven`t built
any reservoirs or ability to keep rain water in some of those other years?
And that may contribute to how bad this drought has been for the Central

HAYES: They`ve done tremendous amounts of water conservation, there`s
tons of drip irrigation. Let me ask you this, though –

FLORES: They`re not willing to build a reservoir because of the delta
smelt, a fish about –

HAYES: Wait, Sarah –

FLORES: And that is now devastating people`s jobs.

HAYES: They have not closed the ponds for the delta smelt during the
last year, first of all. Second of all, go back to your original idea.
Here`s Carly Fiorina, smart, capable, CEO, believes in America`s leader and
she says there is this problem and I`m just going to say, no one else will
sign up for it, I`m going to walk away. Is that the way she`s going to
lead America?

FLORES: That`s not what she said.

HAYES: That is what she said.


FLORES: She said that innovation is the answer to this. Not
destroying jobs. Not telling people that a law in California will somehow
fix global warming when it won`t. One nation acting alone will not fix
this problem.

HAYES: You guys – you guys have a much lower percentage of
electricity usage of any state in the nation and your GDP has been booming
since then. It shows it can be done.

Sarah Isgur, it is fun to talk to you. Come on back and bring Carly

FLORES: Thank you.

HAYES: Senator and presidential candidate Rand Paul meanwhile got a
moderate batch of press when his campaign released an app to encourage
support interaction. Unfortunately, the app`s feature that lets you post a
selfie with Paul`s image has resulted in things like Paul with a toilet and
Paul with a prone performer.

The senator did try to take on Trump in that first debate, and since
then as well. But as of yet, not to great effect.

Earlier I spoke with Rand Paul`s campaign manager Chip Englander and
asked him why Paul has not managed to differentiate himself as many
expected he would so far in this campaign.


everywhere the senator goes, we`re getting huge crowds. In New Hampshire
today, last week out west as he talks about, we have a country that is run
by lobbyists for special interests, and career politicians in both parties
let it happen.

So, we`re getting big crowds. You know, the polls move up and down.
It`s extraordinarily fluid race. If you look four years ago, the person
who`s leading in August was Michele Bachmann, in September, it was Rick
Perry, then it was Herman Cain, then it was Newt Gingrich. Those poor
folks didn`t even finish in the top two in Nevada, New Hampshire, or Iowa.
So, it`s a fluid race.

HAYES: Part of the problem when you talk about special interests, I
remember when Rand launched, it was to defeat Washington machine.

There`s another candidate talking about special interests in the
personal of Donald Trump who has this whole very compelling shtick where he
talks about how he himself was a donor. He used to spread money around and
ask for favors, and that I think is – has been working with folks.

Do you feel like he`s crowded out some of your message?

ENGLANDER: Well, I think it`s great because you touch on, that he
actually demonstrates the hunger that`s out there, that we do need to
defeat Washington machine. And the reality is who is up right now, and him
being up in the summer or whatever, I mean, it`s just – it`s never
indicate who is actually going on win this.

HAYES: But, Chip, can I ask you this? Here`s part of the problem
with defeat the Washington machine message it appears to me, is that it is
being given by a senator, a man who is the son of a congressman who served
many terms, ran for president. He worked on the guy`s campaign.

I mean, this is not some guy who just came out of nowhere. This is
Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky.

ENGLANDER: Well, did he come out of nowhere. I mean, he`s only been
in the Senate for a few years. He was an eye doctor for nearly 20 years in
Bowling Green, Kentucky.

HAYES: And the son of a congressman.

ENGLANDER: Well, congressman, who everyone associates that is totally
independent of the special interests, who ran against it. Those are the
folks coming out against all the events. I don`t think anybody associates
him as part of machine. Everyone understands that he is someone who has
fought it. This country has nearly intractable problems that we need a
transformational figure, that`s the space that he will fill in this race.

HAYES: That independence you talked about with respect to his father
Rand Paul. I mean, the place where he was most independent. It was on
foreign policy. Remember those debates four years ago where he would say
things that would inaugurate a cascade of boos from the crowd and
condemnation from the people up on the rostrum.

He supports the Iran deal. Rand Paul, your candidate, has come out
against the Iran deal. And coming out against the Iran deal has put him
with no space to differentiate on what is arguably the most consequential
foreign policy decision facing the country. Do you think that hurts him?

ENGLANDER: Well, actually, I mean, the senator has disagreed with
folks in his own party on military interventions all around the world. In
Libya, Syria, Egypt, he has been again intervention. Now, on the Iran
deal, he did support negotiations. But just because you support
negotiations doesn`t mean you automatically have to support the final

He believes that the current deal, it removes all the sanctions
immediately. He believes it should be slowly over time. You know, Ronald
Reagan also said, trust but verify. And we need to make sure nobody is
cheating on the deal.

HAYES: The perception is that this is partly driven by politics,
right, that essentially, you can`t survive, either in the fundraising race
or the Republican primary if you support what is looking like signature
foreign policy achievement of President Obama.

I mean, how much is this just a political calculations?

ENGLANDER: None of it is a political congratulations. He has studied
the deal intently. He has read the deal. He has followed all these
different policies. And he always said what is on his mine.

Whether it`s the filibuster on the NSA spying issue, whether it`s on
the drone strikes, whether it was opposing his own party on various
military interventions on, opposing the war in Iraq, all these different
things. He`s always stood on principle.

HAYES: All right. Chip Englander, thank you very much. Tell the
doctor to come by the show any time.

ENGLANDER: Absolutely. Thanks, Chris, for having me.


HAYES: Still to come, President Obama`s trip to Alaska where the
salmon got a little too friendly. Stay with us.



can you guys see those icebergs there? So, periodically the icebergs will
break off from the glaciers. And each of those icebergs are about the size
of a Costco.

This is an example of what we need to be thinking about.


HAYES: President Obama is seeing the effects of climate change first
hand in Alaska, visiting the Kenai Fjords National Park to examine melting
glaciers by sea and by land and warning the pace of climate change cannot
be underestimated.


OBAMA: This glacier has lost about a mile and a half over the last
couple hundred years. But the pace of the reductions of the glacier are
accelerating rapidly each and every year. And this is as good of a sign
post of what we`re dealing with when it comes to climate change as just
about anything.

We want to make sure our grand kids can see this.


HAYES: The president also visited an isolated fishing village got a
little more than he bargained for when he was handed a live salmon.


OBAMA: Something got on my shoes. He was spawning a little bit,
which generally you don`t want fish spawning on your feet. He said he was
happy to see me.



HAYES: A month and a half since the U.S. and five world powers signed
an historic nuclear deal with Iran. The deal secured its 34th supporter in
the Senate today, Maryland Senator Barbara Mikulski, and that gives it
enough backing to sustain a presidential veto if congress should vote to
disapprove it later this month.

Now the Iran deal maybe the biggest foreign policy breakthrough this
country has achieved in decades. But until now, the odds were
overwhelmingly stacked against it. The campaign against the deal began
even before negotiators had an outline.

With Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu`s speech before
congress in March, at the invitation of House Republicans, and with Senator
Tom Cotton`s letter to the ayatollah`s a few weeks later, signed by 46 of
his senate colleagues.

It continued through the summer, after the deal was announced in July,
with tens of tens of millions spent on lobbying, apocalyptic ads all over
the airways, including our own, and over the top rhetoric about the Obama
administration becoming the world`s leading financer of terrorism and
leading Israelis to the oven

All that failed. And today the deal passed implementation is all but
assured. The fight, however, is not yet over. Ten Senate Democrats remain
undecided and all indications suggests the White House wants to win enough
support to avoid a veto altogether.

The new magic number, 41 votes. At the same time the Republicans are
stepping up their opposition to the deal with former Vice President Dick
Cheney delivering a speech about it next Tuesday, just in time for
lawmakers` return from August recess and Donald Trump and Ted Cruz holding
a stop the Iran deal rally on Capitol Hill the next day.

And as fellow presidential candidate Chris Christie demonstrated
today, the rhetoric about President Obama is showing no signs of cooling


CHRIS CHRISITE, GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY: He believes it is his legacy.
And guess what, I too. I believe it`s going to be his legacy too. And I
believe the American people are going to look back on this and say this was
the single worst thing this president has ever done. And every death that
Iran causes is now on Barack Obama`s head.


HAYES: Joining me now, Senator Sherrod Brown Democrat from Ohio, an
early supporter of the Iran deal.

Senator, I want to ask about the psychology of your senate colleagues
in the Democratic caucus who have not made up their mind. And we run down
the stretch there, what do you think it does to their decision making
process to see Chris Christie saying stuff like that and Ted Cruz rallying
on the Capitol Hill with Donald Trump and Dick Cheney making a speech.

Is that persuasive for them?

SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: Well, it may be the opposite. I think
you go back to how wrong this same crowd was on the Iraq war, more than a
decade ago. Those people who pushed this war, pushed the Iraq war, seem to
be the most negative about the Iran nuclear deal. I think that`s part of

I think when my colleagues see Ted Cruzes, Glenn Becks, Dick Cheneyes
of the world shouting at rallies, writing op-eds that are just factually
wrong in the Wall Street Journal, I think all of that contributes to a
number of Democrats thinking, maybe this is not where we want to go.

And I think the persuasive powers of the president, one-on-one. This
wasn`t LBJ arm twisting, this was the president of the United States and a
Secretary of State very cogently making very solid, I think, sober-minded
arguments about why there isn`t a good choice here. The other side, the
opponents never answered the question adequately. What happens if the U.S.
walks away, especially if you talk to as many of us did, to the five
ambassadors from Russia, China, and our closer friends, England, France and
Germany who say we can`t get Iran back to the table to make concessions.
We`ve squeezed them, we`ve done this right, this will keep nuclear weapons
out of their hands for years and years, instead of right now, Iran is
pretty much a nuclear threshold state. They`re not that far from a nuclear
weapon now. This pulls back in a way that works for safety for a much
better Middle East and keeps the nuclear weapons out of the hands of the

HAYES: You know, you mentioned something interesting about – you
said this was an LBJ arm twisting by the president. And it strikes me.
You know, in the past few months, the president has had two big heavily
contested battles with congress. One on TPP and one on the Iran deal.

Now, you were on different sides of those two. But you`ve, the
president has this reputation of being standoffish or being ineffective
working with congress. And I feel like the record shows the opposite.
This White House really does seem to get what it wants in the end.

BROWN: Well, I would mostly agree with that. I think with the Trans
Partnership, the fact that the president of the United States, the
Republican leadership and virtually all of corporate America were on one
side is a pretty powerful bloc, conversations in persuasiveness or lack of
persuasiveness notwithstanding. So, I don`t quite see that.

But I do agree that the president, it is not LBJ arm twisting.
Really, I`ve watched him in small meetings on this on this issue. I`ve
watched him speaking to a group of larger group of senators. And I`ve seen
he is persuasive.

I mean, people – Democrats, and I think most of the public, I won`t
talk about Republican members of the House and Senate, but Democrats in the
House and Senate and most of the public, respect Barack Obama`s political
acumen. They respect his intellect, they respect his powers of persuasion
and they think he is an honorable, decent man. You put all that together
on something as complicate and
important for the future of our world, our planet, not just the Middle
East, but the planet. And I think you have a pretty good formula for
getting the great majority of Democrats on board.

The Republicans were all gone. That letter from Tom Cotton was about
as despicable as anything I`ve ever seen to write for 46 Republican members
of the Senate. To write a letter to the Iranian leaders, to the ayatollah,
for all intents and purposes saying don`t negotiate with our elected
president, was about as – I won`t use an adjective, I`ll let people use
their imagination there. But about as bad as it gets.

So, I think all of this – and the Republicans were so partisan on
this. And Democrats, one at a time – I`ve watched many of my colleagues
and friends – one at a time think about this, listen to people, read the
intelligence reports, listen to the CIA, listen to the secretary of state,
listen to ambassadors of countries that are allies and those like Russia
and China that are only our allies on one issue, perhaps, or a small number
of issues.

And that really tells me how serious my colleagues were about this and
how serious the president was and is, and that`s why we`re going to win on
this ultimately.

HAYES: Senator, that was one of the most honest articulations of how
process works I`ve ever heard. Thank you very much. Thanks for joining

BROWN: Thanks for saying that. Always, Chris.

HAYES: Still to come, the ongoing effort to blame Black Lives Matter.

Scott Walker and Nikki Haley join the list of politicians who say the
protesters are the problem. That discussion is ahead.


HAYES: An incredibly disturbing series of images, one of which we are
about to show you, are galvanizing a call to action on the citizens of

And the photos show the body of a 3-year-old child, a refugee from
Syria, washed up on a beach in Turkey. The boy, along with his 5-year-old
brother, one of
dozens who died when their boats capsized, desperately trying to reach

The horrifying image spurring new calls for European leaders to take
as Europe faces its biggest refugee crisis since World War II. Hundreds of
thousands of people from Syria, from Iraq, from Afghanistan, from Libya,
Eritrea and Nigeria, are fleeing war and poverty. And European countries
are struggling to respond.

Right now, more than 2,000 migrants and refugees who are trying to get
to Germany are trapped at a Hungarian train station, thanks to asylum
rules. Germany is preparing to take 800,000 refugees, is urging other
countries to do their part.

In Iceland, over 11,000 people are offering to open their homes to

In U.S., the exceptional nation, the indispensable nation, has only
taken in 1,000 Syrian refugees so far and will take another 8,000 next
year. That is 100 times less than the number of refugees that Germany, a
country a fraction the size of the U.S., will take in this year.

You know, any time war is on the table you hear a great number of
prominent political and media voices in America arguing that if you
actually care about the people of the Middle East, you must support
military action. But if those lives truly matter to us, as they should,
there is something very straightforward we can do that doesn`t involve
dropping a single bomb or sending a single troop, we can take in tens, even
hundreds of thousands into this large wealthy country and every single
person running for president right now should be forced to answer why we


HAYES: Big news today out of Baltimore and the case against the six
police officers charged in the death of Freddie Gray, the 25 year old
African American man who died this past spring after sustaining injuries in
police custody.

As protesters and police gathered outside the courthouse, the judge
ruled this afternoon the six officers will receive six separate trials.
Additionally, the same judge ruled the city state`s attorney Marilyn Mosby
did not have to recuse herself from the case.

Freddie Gray died last April in the hospital after sustaining a severe
spinal injury while in police custody. Videos showed Gray being stopped by
several officers and dragged into a police van. His death ignited days of
protest and unrest throughout Baltimore, which culminated in Mosby
announcing a range of charges against six Baltimore police officers less
than two weeks after Gray died.


for no justice, no peace. However your peace is sincerely need as I work
to deliver justice on behalf of Freddie Gray.

To the youth of the city, I will seek justice on your behalf. This is
a moment, this is your moment.


HAYES: The charges against the officers range from second-degree
murder to
second-degree assault. All six officers have since pled not guilty to all
charges. Many of the protests that are widely viewed as contributing to
the swift action by city prosecutors were organized under the banner of
Black Lives Matter.

In the month`s since Freddie Gray died, that movement has gained
strength across the country opening it and the larger criminal justice
reform movement up to criticism.


they have been disgracefully jeopardized by the movement that has laid
waste to Ferguson and

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: I do think we`re seeing the manifestation
of the rhetoric and vilification of law enforcement of the police that is
coming from the top, that`s coming from the president of the United States.


HAYES: Today Scott Walker wrote that in the last six years under
President Obama, we`ve seen a rise in anti-police rhetoric, this
inflammatory and disgusting rhetoric has real consequences for the safety
of officers who put their lives on the line for us.


HAYES: Efforts to link the Black Lives Matter movement to recent
police deaths have also found a home on Fox News.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Every time there is a controversy about an
shooting a black person, they`re out there stirring the pot. You don`t
feel that disturbed individuals watch this and then act out?

shot this year than last year. Are you willing to give Black Lives Matter
credit for that? Cop shootings are down.

O`REILLY: I know they`re down slightly.

MOSKOS: Oh about 17 percent.


HAYES: Peter Moskos, the former Baltimore police officer who joined
Bill O`Reilly in that clip, he`s going to be here next.


HAYES: Joining me now, frequent guest on the program, Peter Moskos,
former Baltimore police officer, associate professor John Jay College of
Criminal Justice.

There is an urge to connect the protest movements that are happening
with two things, I think: killings of police officers and also, the fact
that in a number
of major American cities, we have seen a rise in the murder rates,
particularly true in Baltimore, St. Louis, Milwaukee more than the others.

What is right? What is wrong about that?

MOSKOS: I think linking Black Lives Matter to the killing of police
officers is a disservice to both cops and Black Lives Matter, primarily
because shootings of
cops this year is down and somewhat significantly.

I don`t think it has anything to do with Black Lives Matter, I think
over – it was a bad week, by the way, for cops but it`s been a good year.

HAYES: It was a bad week and one other thing that struck me is, we`ve
got this ongoing manhunt in Illinois and that story came on the tail of the
shooting down Houston.

The strain in Illinois, which is a horrible story, incredibly tragic,
seems much more like the kind of thing can happen to a police officer in
the line of
duty, approaches suspects, there was some sort of altercation, there wasn`t
– from all we know, not some kind of ambush of someone who is in the

MOSKOS: No, I don`t think Black Lives Matter has a strong foothold in
Fox Lake, Illinois, to put it mildly.

HAYES: Particularly among two white suspects.

MOSKOS: But where I do think Black Lives matters is creating some
harm is in places like Baltimore. It is making police tougher. I this –
I mean, part of it, look, you can call it a movement for police reform or
you can call it an ant-police movement or some combination thereof, but the
movement is not just about black lives, it is about state power and it`s
about policing. And I think many of the
recommendations are wrong and dangerous.

They want a lot of – it is hard to speak entirely collectively, but
they want the end of broken windows which has helped bring crime down and
save black lives. They want less policing.

HAYES: But this is – see this is the thing, right. So, first of
all, I think the data on broken windows is not particularly definitive, I
think it`s fair to say.

MOSKOS: It`s getting more and more definitive.

HAYES: Partly depends on how you define it and partly depends on what
your data set is.

MOSKOS: I`m defining it in the proper way, of course.

But I`m talking about quality of life issues, I`m not talking about
tolerance policing.

HAYES: But that gets to this key accountability issue and this key
metric that I think is at the core of this, right. We saw America go
through this period in which we created the largest prison population ever
in the history of developed

MOSKOS: Ever in history, period. We have more prisoners than China
and they have a billion more people than us. It`s horrible.

HAYES: And then what we saw was a movement towards incrementally some
kind of bipartisan criminal justice reform, some ideas of how can we do
better? You`re someone who has written on this, right. And now we see the
kind of politics that created that prison system in the beginning, which is
the backlash politics we`re
seeing now, which says, see what happens, these people start yelling and
crime comes roaring back. See what happens? You let people go out on the
streets in protest or you don`t enforce quality of life and it all comes
back and disorder
is a broken window away.

MOSKOS: There is a…

HAYES: That`s what`s happening.


And look some of it, of course, is absurd, some of it is hype. But
there is no reason crime couldn`t go up in the future. The murder rate in
Baltimore doubled, more than doubled overnight on April 27 on the night of
the riots, because policing changed. The job became a lot tougher.

HAYES: But here`s the other thing that strikes me. If you want to
talk about how this movement is affecting policing, it strikes me that it`s
also probably affecting the way police do their jobs to be told there`s a
war on police.
I mean, that scares me, to think about someone telling their charges,
you`re going out there like the policeman benevolent association U.S. said
we`re on war footing now after the horrible murder of those two cops,
right. That`s also…

MOSKOS: But some of that is business as usual in the police world.

HAYES: but that`s terrifying.

MOSKOS: It might be, but it`s not new.

HAYES: But that`s the point. But that`s the point. If you`re
telling people you`re going into a war zone, that seems to me in deep
profound tension with our democratic commitments for a democratic police

MOSKOS: Yeah, so here`s what we have to do. First of all, we have to
not believe the hype on all sides, from the extreme right or the extreme
left. We have to start telling cops what we want them to do. It is too
easy to say what we don`t want them to do. And there`s a lot of that right
now. And some of it is fair. Look, we don`t cops to kill unthreatening
people, that`s a fair thing to say. We don`t want cops to be racist.
That`s fine.

But the job has a lot of gray and we have got to tell cops what we
want them to do. And we have to engage people in improved community
relations through engagement, not the retrenchment.

HAYES: The more – telling cops what we want them to do is a really
good place to end this conversation. Peter Moskos, thanks for being here.

MOSKOS: It`s always a pleasure/

HAYES: That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show
starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.


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