All In with Chris Hayes, Transcript 05/01/15

Marilyn Mosby, Tawanda Jones, Kwame Rose, Jane Miller, Joe Crystal, Kurt Schmoke

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from Baltimore City Hall. I`m
Chris Hayes.

The death of Freddie Gray was second degree depraved heart murder,
according to Baltimore`s state attorney. That`s the most serious of 28
charges against six Baltimore police officers all now in custody. On the
streets of Baltimore, a mix of jubilation and tension after the surprise
announcement this morning by Baltimore state attorney Marilyn Mosby, who
will be my guest here in just a moment.

The charges, 28 in total, ranging from false imprisonment, to
involuntary manslaughter, to the most serious second degree depraved heart

The Baltimore police have just released the mug shots for the six
officers charged and processed today. It`s the first time we`ve got ton
see their faces.

When state attorney Marilyn Mosby announced the charges this morning,
there was an audible reaction from the crowd.


comprehensive, thorough and independent investigation, coupled with the
medical examiner`s determination that Mr. Gray`s death was a homicide,
which we received today, has led us to believe that we have probable cause
to file criminal charges.

CROWD: Yes! Yes!


HAYES: Mosby drew an explicit connection to the protests that have
erupted in Baltimore since Gray`s death and some of the occasional
violence, rioting and looting, pleading for peace while she proceeds with
the prosecution.


MOSBY: To those that are angry, hurt or have their own experiences of
injustice at the hands of police officers, I urge you to channel the energy
peacefully, as we prosecute this case. I`ve heard your calls for no
justice, no peace. However, your peace is sincerely needed as I work to
deliver justice on behalf of Freddie Gray. You`re at the forefront of this
cause. And as young people, our time is now.


HAYES: The news was greeted with relief by Freddie Gray`s family.
His mother, Gloria Darden, telling “BuzzFeed”, “I feel good because we got
all six of them. You can rest, Freddie. You can rest. You can be in
peace now.”

Not everyone was pleased with the state attorney`s decision. The
local chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police condemned the charges and
defended the police officers in question.


never seen such a hurried rush to file criminal charges, which I believe
are driven by forces which are separate and apart from the application of
law and the facts of this case as we know them. Let me state in no
uncertain terms that Lieutenant Rice and all of the officers involved, at
all times, acted reasonably and in accordance with their training as
Baltimore police officers. These officers did nothing wrong.


HAYES: Earlier tonight, I sat down with state`s attorney, Marilyn


HAYES: So, there – I just came from outside city hall. And there
was someone with a drawing of Marilyn Mosby, like God bless Marilyn Mosby.
I got people on my Twitter feed this morning, it was just like, you were
the youngest prosecutor of a major city in the country. And this morning,
there was this kind of like – you became this immediate icon.

Like how do – I mean, did you expect the reaction to be what it had

MOSBY: No. At the end of the day, I`m here to do my job. It`s about
applying justice fairly and equally, to those with or without a badge. I
didn`t do anything differently in this case than I would do in any other

HAYES: It is different though because of the context, right? I mean,
you made an announcement on this case in a way you`re not going to announce
every –

MOSBY: Well, I mean, in the context of the public concern, I think
your job as a prosecutor, if you have to alleviate that sort of concern,
you should do that. I did that. I`ve had some other high-profile cases
where I`ve had to have press conferences.

So, did I treat this case any differently in the pursuit of justice?
No, I didn`t.

HAYES: When you made the announcement this morning, how much thought
went into the words you chose, the characterization you gave, the detail
you offered, all of that? I mean, it was – I think people were surprised.
There was this audible gasp when you announced there were charges.

How kind of planned out was that moment?

MOSBY: Well, I can tell you that from the very beginning, my – I put
together an investigative team who, from the time that we learned of this
tragic event, we went out to the scene, we started canvassing the area,
speaking to witnesses. We, you know, reviewed hours and hours of video
surveillance, we reviewed hours and hours of statements in this case,
medical records.

This wasn`t something that was really quick, fast and in a hurry, or
rushed to judgment. This was a thorough investigation that we were
conducting in parallel with the police department. So, the information
that was provided to us yesterday by the police department is information
we already knew.

HAYES: Did you learn – I was in Ferguson on the night that Bob
McCulloch announced there would be no indictment for Darren Wilson in the
shooting of Michael Brown. Obviously, a very different set of facts. You
know, so I don`t know what to compare them factually. But in terms of the
atmospherics of how he chose to do that announcement and when he did, and
your announcement today, have you learned lessons from watching these high-
profile cases in Ferguson and New York and other places?

MOSBY: I wouldn`t say learned lessons. I think I`m just a different
prosecutor. You know, my pursuit is going to be, at all times, to be
transparent and to pursue justice – justice on behalf of the victims,
justice on behalf of the defendants. And I recognize that my decisions
have collateral consequences in our community. So, in the end, it`s just
our approach is different.

HAYES: Well, there`s one similarity I thought was notable. In
Ferguson, Bob McCulloch came from a long line of law enforcement, family of
law enforcement. Father was an officer killed in the line of duty. You
come from a long line of law enforcement. You talked about that today.

How much does that shape and form the way that you do this job?

MOSBY: I think every perspective that you have shapes the person that
you are, right? I come from five generations of police officers – my
mother, my father, grandfather, my great uncles. Law enforcement is pretty
much instilled within my being.

But I understand and respect that most and majority of police officers
are risking their lives day in and day out. You know, they`re taking time,
they`re sacrificing time away from their families. And they`re on the
streets of not just Baltimore, but every urban city across America, and
risking their lives for the betterment of communities. Recognizing that,
because that`s what my family did.

You know, I also recognize that there are those individuals who usurp
their authority, who will go above and beyond and pretty much go past the
public trust. And when they do that, you have to hold those individuals
accountable because if you don`t, they do a disservice to those really hard
working police officers.

HAYES: But you also know the culture of police can often look very
much askance at people who talk out of turn, that are not loyal to their
fellow officers. I mean, there is a case in Baltimore of a man who
testified against an officer about a dead rat on the windshield. There is
a pending lawsuit.

I mean, are you worried about or prepared for the backlash that might
be coming at you and your office?

MOSBY: What I can tell you is at the end of the day, my office is an
independent agency from the police department. And I was elected by the
city and the constituents of Baltimore city to pursue justice. That`s my
mission as a prosecutor – to seek justice over convictions.

So am I worried about any sort of backlash? No, absolutely not. Have
I done anything that`s unfair or rushed? Absolutely not.

This was a thorough investigation. We applied the facts to the law.
And we`ve pursued this case, and I think fairly and appropriately.

HAYES: Fraternal Order of Police says it is a rush to judgment.
They`d say the support of one of the Gray family attorneys for your
election is a conflict of interest and they`re calling for a special
prosecutor. What`s your –

MOSBY: And that`s absolutely absurd. When you have a special
prosecutor, where is the accountability? Someone politically is going to
appoint someone else, and who do you hold accountable?

The constituents of Baltimore City elected me to exercise my
discretion and apply justice fairly and equally with or without a badge.

With reference to a conflict of interest, there is no conflict of
interest. My husband represents the district in which I live. I am the
Baltimore City state`s attorney. I represent his district and 13 other
districts throughout the city. I prosecute crimes there.

I don`t have to turn on the news and open up the newspaper in order to
see the crime impacting my community. All I have to do is open up the
door. So, there is no conflict.

HAYES: So, then what happens – I mean, I don`t know if you paid
attention to what happened in New York, the wake of Eric Garner, the mayor
had some strong comments about Eric Garner. There were two police officers
who were murdered. It was sort of a horrific act, really just gutted the

The police department basically launched an open revolt against the
mayor. I mean, they turned their back at funerals.

I mean, if you come in next week and start hearing from your lawyers
that these cops aren`t showing up to testify on court dates that you need
to make your cases, what are you going to do?

MOSBY: You hold them accountable. That`s unacceptable. I mean, you
have to change the culture, and it starts with accountability.

You asked me about the conflict of interest with reference to the
family attorney, I don`t – there is no conflict of interest. The family -
- Mr. Gray`s family attorney, donated to my campaign and supported me. I
had over 700 people who donated to my campaign.

HAYES: Right.

MOSBY: Including the FOP. So, I don`t see how there`s any sort of
conflict of interest with reference to that.

HAYES: I talked to three gentlemen before I came here, from West

MOSBY: Uh-huh.

HAYES: They said, oh, they talked about Freddie Gray and the van.
They said, that`s just the thing, rough rides. Cops don`t like to run.
You make them run, and they`re going to give you a rough ride like – and I
talked to multiple people that said, yes, it`s a practice. Get thrown in
the van, they take those hard turns, knock you around and you get out.

It doesn`t strike me or anyone, I think, that this is the first time
this kind of thing has happened.

MOSBY: Well, I can`t tell you whether this is the first thing – this
is the first time that it happened. I can`t even tell you if this is what
happened in this particular case. I`m prevented from doing so.

But you have to, at some point, change the culture of what`s happening
in the police department. The way that you do that is by holding them

HAYES: So, let me be more specific. You have six officers who have
been charged today. Those officers presumably have been involved in
arrests or have acted as witnesses for cases your office is bringing now or
has brought in the last four months you`ve been in office.

MOSBY: Uh-huh.

HAYES: Are those going to be – is there going to be a review of the
cases? Do you trust, given what we know from the police report, which was
not accurate, particularly about the knife – do you trust the information
you have from those officers?

MOSBY: What I can say to you is I can`t sit up here and tell you what
I will do in these particular cases. These are accusations at this point.
The – there`s a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. And to be
fair and impartial in this process, I can`t give you my opinion as to these
particular officers.

HAYES: Right. But my question is, do you have confidence that the
information they have provided to your office upon which you have made
cases, presumably your lawyers made cases off the officers.

MOSBY: But you`re asking me to comment on the individuals that are
currently pending, and I can`t do that.

HAYES: Some of the people I talked to fear that – there will be
retribution, essentially not against you by Baltimore police, but against
people in the West Baltimore, the Baltimore police in the streets are going
to be angry. They`re going to feel like they`ve been shown up, or they`ve
been exposed in some way. What do you say to those citizens? Is that a –
is that a rational fear?

MOSBY: What I can say is I think that we`ve sent a very clear message
that that sort of culture is not going to be tolerated in Baltimore City,

HAYES: Final question for you.


HAYES: Does Baltimore prosecute too many people?


MOSBY: Unfortunately, we have too much crime.

HAYES: Right.

MOSBY: I agree. And I have over 40,000 cases in district court,
7,000 that are prayed a jury trial into circuit court, misdemeanors, and
over 5,000 felonies a year. So, yes, we do have too much crime.

One of the points, the reason I said to the young people, you know,
this is your moment. This is a movement. Let`s be productive. Let`s
start to address some of the systemic issues within our communities. Let`s
utilize this moment and do something about it.

To have over 235 murders a year? We need to be as outraged. That`s
unacceptable. And when I said to the young people, “let`s capitalize off
this, our time is now,” that`s what I meant.


HAYES: Baltimore state`s attorney Marilyn Mosby only been in office
four months, the youngest of any state`s attorney of any major city in the
U.S. and clearly, a pretty tough individual. I think you can tell from
that interview.

Immediately after her announcement of the charges today, people in
Baltimore started celebrating. There were cars honking their horns, people
taking to the streets. That celebration continues now with protest march
and folks filling in to the intersection of North and Pennsylvania on West
Baltimore, site of rioting and burning just beginning of the week.

We will check in live at the corner with my colleague Joy Reid in just
a moment. Do not go anywhere.


HAYES: All week, people have been congregating in West Baltimore, the
corner of North and Pennsylvania, the site of the CVS that was burned
earlier in the week. Joining me now from that location, MSNBC national
correspondent, Joy Reid.

Joy, what is the scene like there right now?

scene here. It`s been going on all day. As you can see the crowds are
thick. And these are actually the biggest crowds that we`ve seen in the
entire week we`ve been here, choppers flying overhead, warning people to
stay on the sidewalks.

There was a huge march passed through here, that was marching in the
direction of the police department, but very jubilant. People taking
pictures with the state`s police officers, who are decked out in gear with
the big tank. Very calm mood, very upbeat mood. This is a crowd that`s
happy, that feels they won a big victory today, Chris.

HAYES: All right. Joy Reid live from West Baltimore, at that corner,
you see North Pennsylvania traffic open. It had been closed off earlier in
the week.

We`ll be checking back with Joy throughout the night. Thank you much,

Lots more ahead, including the sister of a man who died in Baltimore
police custody just a few years ago. Officers were never charged. She
will join me. Stay with us.



CROWD: Freddie! Freddie! Freddie! Freddie! Freddie! Freddie!
Freddie! Freddie!



HAYES: Scenes from Baltimore earlier today after the state`s attorney
announced charges for six of the officers involved in the death of Freddie
Gray. All six of whom are as of this hour in police custody.

Joining me now, Tawanda Jones, whose brother Tyrone West died in
police custody in Baltimore in 2013. And Kwame Rose, a concerned Baltimore
citizen who challenged Geraldo Rivera of FOX News about media coverage. We
showed you some of the tape last night.

Tawanda, I want to start with you. Your brother died, medical
examiner found that he had a preexisting heart condition but it was
exacerbated by a struggle with the police. There were never any charges.
You never felt like you got justice.

First of all, my brother didn`t die. Let`s clear that up. My brother was
brutally, brutally assassinated on July 18th, 2013. He was brutally
murdered, a very healthy young man.

HAYES: You worked very hard to get rid of the state`s attorney who
did not prosecute, bring any charges against any officers in your brother`s

JONES: Absolutely. He gave all the officers – all 11 officers full
immunity before he even got their statements.

HAYES: They got full immunity?

JONES: Full immunity.

HAYES: There were never any charges?

JONES: Never any charges. These serial killer cops are still walking
the beat.

HAYES: So, when you – you endorsed and you`ve have been an active
member of the justice for Freddie Gray movement. You`ve been very active
member of protest here, you`ve basically endorsed Marilyn Mosby when she
ran against the previous state`s attorney, right?

JONES: Absolutely.

HAYES: How did you feel tonight, when watching the announcement that
the officers would be prosecuted?

JONES: I was happy though this is a part of the battle, because we`re
at war right now. I was excited that she kept her word, because she looked
our family in the face and she promised that she would not treat nobody
different if she was elected in the chair. And she showed what she was
capable of doing. She did an excellent job. So, I give her kudos.

But right now, we`re still at war. I`m not going to be satisfied
until all of those killer cops that killed Freddie Gray are behind bars for
the rest of their life, or get some type of time, like this is a slow walk
in the right direction.

HAYES: This is the beginning of a long process.

JONES: Yes, baby steps towards the right direction.

HAYES: Kwame, you had a lot to say to Geraldo the other night about
the way the media has covered this. The focus perhaps on the stuff that
went down Monday night, and when no one was here months or two months
earlier, a year earlier. What was your reaction to the announcement of
charges today?

KWAME ROSE, BALTIMORE RESIDENT: I was right there when – I want the
commend state`s attorney Mosby for bringing charges to the six officers.
But I was right there. I felt as though the same way as this young lady

This was the first step in a long process, hopefully in the right
direction, but we know that the criminal – the court system of America
doesn`t convict killer cops of black folks at all. So, good step.
Hopefully it`s not false hope, though.

HAYES: Do you have qualms – I mean, how is this going to play out?
What is it going to be like here, as this works its way through the justice

ROSE: Well, if you look at the news conference today and saw the
state`s attorney stand by herself, minus the police commissioner, minus the
mayor, minus the governor, the same three individuals who labeled an entire
generation of Baltimore young as nothing but thugs, criminals and vandals.

She stood alone. So, it seems as though there are few politicians are
actually standing up for the rights of black lives in this city.

HAYES: We should say that Stephanie Rawlings-Blake did give – she
gave a statement. She is not out there –

ROSE: A statement does not – she made a statement to the media and
stood out here on the steps of city hall and called us thugs and criminals.
But she couldn`t make a statement to show that she`s got our backs against
the killer cops.

HAYES: Police officers have – there`s been reports of police
officers warning that they will be in danger because of what happened, that
this will essentially embolden people to challenge the police in Baltimore.
What do you say to that?

JONES: I`d say that`s a bunch of foolishness, because if you do your
job and keep your hands off us, not brutalizing us, you wouldn`t be getting
charge and that`s the saddest part. Everybody was living in tears, on the
edge of their seats, all over the world, looking to see if they were just
going to be charged, that was new to them.

Like are you kidding me? Are you serious? Killer cops in cell
blocks. If I go and brutally murder somebody, they`re going to lock me up
and throw away the key. No questions asked.

Why do we have to beg the system for something they owe us?

HAYES: You agree with that?

ROSE: I mean, I think – if you look at every since anyone that has
been out here, continuously since the announcement was made, actually, the
military presence has increased in Baltimore City. Up and down North
Avenue right now, thousands and thousands of concerned residents are
marching peacefully. We have the older generation crying on the sidewalks,
as they`re encouraging the youth to march.

The police are just geared up for, it seems as though, they`re scared
of black lives in America.

HAYES: What would – what would it take to create a situation where
you trusted the Baltimore police?

JONES: Accountability, transparency. That`s not been happening
lately at all.

This is the first time I seen any type of transparency. That`s with
Marilyn Mosby, what she did today, a step in the right direction.

HAYES: Clearly lay out as she did, what happened, what the charges

JONES: And I just want to say, I`m so proud of the youth here in
Baltimore. They have been the leaders in this. They have been leading us
and walking us peacefully, doing stuff right. They are not thugs. They
are not thugs.

They are – if anybody should be afraid, it`s the young. Freddie Gray
was walking down the street, looking at the officer and you get brutally
murdered. My brother was driving while black and was brutally

And the same cops, (INAUDIBLE), the first ones that pulled him over
and started brutally murdering him. They beat up Abdul Salam (ph) inches
away from his wife, in front of his baby, in the same neighborhood and
nothing was done. We still don`t have my brother`s autopsy report.

How do you an autopsy, and they sign it`s complete, but how is it
complete with no pictures? It`s disgusting. Ninety-three weeks we`ve been
peacefully protesting actively out here so they wouldn`t do what they did
to Freddie Gray, and they still did it. But they won`t go and get away
with it because I know the West family and Baltimore City has been out here
on the front lines.

We don`t do this every day. We do this with or without y`all cameras.
We do this in hot heat, cool air, with or without anyone. When people want
to stand and when they don`t.

This is lives on the line. It`s a shame. And to make it work, David
Lewis, from Morgan, a Morgan cop, the last one that showed up, sat on my
brother`s dying back after he was pepper sprayed, tased, screaming for
help. Why you doing this to me?

He sat on his back, pressing him, a 300-pound man, until he could not
breathe or talk anymore.

HAYES: The officers who were involved in your brother`s death –


HAYES: They – there was an independent investigation that said they
made mistakes. There`s never –

JONES: Independent foolishness. If there was a thorough
investigation, it would have said about the witnesses, there were credible
witnesses. We had videos. Just like – we know if the videos would have
shown Freddie Gray, we wouldn`t be here right now.

HAYES: That`s right.

JONES: Videos of my brother`s brutal murder are still out there.

HAYES: Tawanda Jones, Kwame Rose, thank you very much.

JONES: Thank you.

HAYES: I really appreciate it.

We`ll be right back.



RAWLINGS-BLAKE: We know that the vast majority of the men and the
women in the Baltimore City Police Department serve our city with pride,
with courage, with honor and with distinction.

But to those of you who wish to engage in brutality, misconduct,
racism and corruption, let me be clear, there is no place in the Baltimore
City Police Department for you.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This could be an ugly night at the curfew.

HAYES: All right, that was Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake giving a
comment earlier in reaction to the decision by the state`s attorney to
bring charges.

Right now, this hour, a march is filing in behind us here going
around, coming – landing in city hall at this moment, they`ve been
marching all day. A lot of protesters expressing frustration with the
curfew, chanting, “convict all six.”

CROWD: Convict all six.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No justice, no peace.

CROWD: Convict all six.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No justice, no peace.

CROWD: Convict all six.

HAYES: Joining me now is WBAL the investigative reporter, Jane
Miller. This has been going around Baltimore all day. Jane Miller getting
damp from the crowd. We`re going to take that microphone.

JANE MILLER, WBAL: OK. That`s a good idea.

So, their chant has changed from justice for Freddie or whatever, now
it`s conflict all six to – these folks have been watching our reporting
here in Baltimore a lot. So, yes, they have been here quite a bit.

HAYES: What have we learned today?

MILLER: We learned that six officers have been criminally charged in
this case, in probably the most expeditious fashion we`ve seen in on-duty
police incidents.

HAYES: You`ve been an investigative reporter in this town for a

MILLER: More than 30 years.

HAYES: Despite your tremendously youthful appearance.

And it`s been a long time where there`s been a lot of complaints about
the Baltimore Police Department, calls for accountability. This really did
mark some kind of break, it felt like, from what
has happened before.

MILLER; Well, it may mark a new day in how these cases may be
handled. But I know that there`s been some criticism that this case was
brought very quickly. In fact, in criminal cases, it`s
not unusual for a case to be brought to this level, charged through a
charging document within a
couple of weeks. I mean, there are cases that are like that.

There was a lot of evidence available in this case right away, because
Mr. Gray spent seven days in a hospital. So, there`s a huge medical
record. So, they start out kind of ahead of the game.

Five of the officers gave statements. So, that`s clearly key evidence
in the case. That was already done. And then there were witness
statements, too, that were widely available.

Keep in mind that this investigation went on for seven days before he

HAYES: Right.

MILLER: So that there was a lot of work done before it became such a
huge, national story.

And what will happen now, Chris, is that this will go to a grand jury
now, that`s the process here. And more evidence will be presented and more
information will be presented. And then a grand jury will decide on
indictment and we`ll go from there.

HAYES: There was something that Marilyn Mosley (ph) said to me that I
thought was interesting. She said, we didn`t learn anything from the
police we didn`t already know, which speaks to the amount of evidence. But
you`ve been reporting a lot of evidence yourself.

MILLER: Well, a lot of us have done some serious work on this case,
and we knocked on a lot of doors, we`ve gotten witness information. We`ve
gotten information from other sources that I`ve had. And you know – so,
yes, there was a lot – this really is a straightforward case when you
think about it.

You had to deal with what really happened during the initial arrest.
But when you got to the point of his injury, and we knew his injury right
away. He was in shock trauma. So, that wasn`t – you didn`t guess at
that. You know, it was very clear, the injury he suffered.

So, you had a head start on all of that. And there was video
evidence. There was more video evidence when the city`s cameras were
reviewed. So, it`s a pretty straight forward case.

Policy says he needed to be secured in a seat belt. Policy says if
you have got a prisoner that needs medical attention, asks for it, call for

So, when you boil it down, it`s not a complicated case.

HAYES: It`s not a complicated prosecution.


HAYES; Although, it does – so here`s the final question, is it…

MILLER: I mean, it`ll be a very complicated prosecution but it`s not
a complicated case.

HAYES: Right, the facts are not complicated, right, the prosecution
will be complicated.

Do we know, ultimately, the origin of the injury?

MILLER: Well, I mean, clearly, the autopsy finds, which she said
today when it was delivered to her, that…

HAYES: That this was ruled a homicide.

MILLER: Yes, correct, ruled a homicide.

Is that it occurred inside that police wagon. And there was something
that happened inside the wagon that caused him to slam into the back of the
van – probably the back of the van, considering how he would have been
sitting, and caused this very catastrophic injury. It`s the kind of
injury, as we`ve said, that happens in a car wreck.

So, from the jump, they knew that he didn`t have other injuries,
because he`d been in a hospital, and so that`s where they focused.

Do they know the exact point of when it happened? We may never know
that. I think you can narrow it down. We may never know that, unless the
van driver were at some point, be – we will hear from him.

HAYES: All right, WBAL Jane Miller, really a pleasure. Thank you for
your work.

MILLER: OK. Got you.

HAYES: All right, a Baltimore police officer who testified against a
fellow officer who beat a suspect, who said he was run out of the force, is
going to talk to me about the culture of the Baltimore Police. That`s
ahead. Don`t go anywhere.



radio called the wagon back, brought the suspect back into the house and
brought him into a back room where he was assaulted.

It`s never OK to beat a handcuffed suspect. You know, we`re supposed
to uphold the law. I tried to report it that night and told that if I
snitched about what happened that it would be the end of my career.


HAYES; That was former Baltimore detective Joe Crystal who testified
against a fellow officer for beating he administered, leading to that
officer`s conviction. And then he says he was run out of the
department. And Joe Crystal joins me now by phone.

Joe, are you there?

CRYSTAL: Yes, sir, I am. Thank you for having me on your show, Mr.
Hayes. It`s a pleasure.

HAYES: OK, Joe, you were a Baltimore police officer. You were kind
of a rising star. You were promoted rapidly. You actually testified
against a fellow officer for beating a suspect. Is that right?

CRYSTAL: Two officers, a sergeant and a regular patrol officer.

HAYES: And what happened after you did that?

CRYSTAL: Sir, to be honest, it actually started before, once I
actually reported the incident. From the time that I reported the
incident, I had to deal with issues of people saying they didn`t want to
ride with me, being called a snitch and rat to my face. Two separate
times, sir, I called for backup and did not receive backup. Actually mere
blocks away from where the CVS that was lit on fire just to give your
viewers a vision idea of the area, I was about three blocks away from
there. Two separate times
I didn`t get backup. Somebody came to my house and put a dead rat on my

After I testified against the officers, everything spun up again. And
I had to deal with the same
type things, being called a snitch and a rat. I had to deal with people
making fake Twitter accounts accusing me of all types of things with my

The Commissioner Batts had moved me around from department to
department where I didn`t even know where I was to report to. he would
tell me one week, I was told I had to watch an alley to make sure nobody
broke in eight hours a day. It just became miserable.

They even tried as far as to investigate me.

After – and it`s something important to bring up, sir.

I`m sorry. Go ahead.

HAYES: Well, let me ask you this. Given what your particular
experience was, and you have a
pending lawsuit, what is your reaction to Marilyn Mosby`s announcement of
charges for these six today? And what do you think is going to happen in
the Baltimore Police Department, in the state`s attorney`s office as this
goes forward?

CRYSTAL: Well, for one, I`d like to actually say that I think the
state attorney, Ms. Marilyn Mosby, handled herself in the press conference
extremely well. I`d actually say the mayor could probably learn something
from this state attorney, Ms. Mosby, by her demeanor and the way she
handled it, the way she came across so professionally.

As far as what happened, obviously, it`s a sad day for police in
general across the country. This is bigger than just Baltimore. It`s
important that the citizens of Baltimore feel that justice is being served.

At the end of the day, a man died for what was told by the state
attorney, for no reason. A man had passed away for no charges, and for no
reason. And that`s horrible.

As far as the relationship between the state`s attorney`s office goes,
I`m not sure how that`s going to impact it. It could impact it in a
negative way. I read about the FOP, how they wanted Ms. Mosby to bring in
a special prosecutor.

So, that could be a preview of things to come.

HAYES: Did you know any of the officers who were charged and arrested

CRYSTAL: I worked with one of them briefly. Lieutenant Rice was my
sergeant for a brief amount of time, while maybe three or four weeks when
he was still a sergeant.

HAYES: Do you imagine or anticipate that we would see any actions
taken by the Baltimore police in a concerted fashion, as a sort of act of
protest against these charges?

CRYSTAL: Well, my first thought to that, like I said, when I read
about what the union, the letter the union put out, my feeling was when I
read that, sir, was if they felt that way when they did the first press
conference, instead of the FOP president calling the protesters a lynch mob
before when all the protests had been peaceful up until that time, I feel
that this is an issue they should have raised
before officers were indicted.

I don`t feel – now, I feel it`s kind a little – it`s like crying
over spilled milk. Would you be asking for Ms. Mosby to bring the special
prosecutor if she had decided not to charge the officers. So, IU think the
timing of it is definitely bad.

It could definitely be blow back between the police department. One
thing that my thing my incident has shown is, you know, officers do not
like other officers coming forward. I don`t know if they`re going to reach
out and feel that way about the state`s attorney`s office, but I could tell
you that if any officers came forward, they could have a rough road ahead
of them, especially under this administration with Commissioner Batts.

HAYES: All right, former Baltimore detective Joe Crystal, still a
police officer. Thank you very much, sir. Appreciate it.

CRYSTAL: My pleasure, sir.

HAYES: All right, more breaking news just in about the six police
officers arrested in the case of Freddie Gray. We can now confirm that all
six officers have posted bond. There`s a preliminary hearing scheduled for
May 27th. Ahead, we`ll talk to the man who was Baltimore`s first elected
black mayor. Stick around.


these charges. I never ordered or conspired
with David Wildstein (ph) to close or realign lanes of the bridge for any
reason. David Wildstein (ph) is a liar.


HAYES: All right, that was Bridget Kelly at a press conference today.
On a day of – well, a lot of indictments being handed out not just in
Baltimore, but in New Jersey as well.

U.S. Attorney Paul Fishman handing out indictments to Bridget Kelly
former staffer linked to the Bridgegate scandal for Chris Christie and
Bill Baroni who was at the Port Authority.

David Wildstein, (ph) referred to as the governor`s eyes and ears
inside the Port authority, he pled guilty.

Rachel Maddow is going to cover that. She of course was there from
the beginning. A huge day of developments in that case. All of the
coverage of that will be coming up just after this show. You do not want
to miss that. Stick around.


HAYES: The protests in Baltimore over the death of Freddie Gray, just
one of many protests we`ve seen across the country around over policing,
police brutality and the deaths of black men in the hands of the police.

These protests, however, have coincided with the very ramping up of
the presidential campaign.
particularly on the Democratic side, where we have an active primary. And
that has resulted in essentially a change in rhetoric from Democrats. We
are seeing an absolute 180 on their policy on crime and punishment.

Today, I got a chance to sit down with Illinois Senator Dick Durbin,
one of the top leaders in the Senate, and ask him about the about face
Democrats appear to be in the midst of executing on crime and punishment.


HAYES: What changed? I mean, I remember in 1992, Bill Clinton went
off the campaign trail to fly back to Arkansas to watch a man, who was –
had an IQ of I think about 80, be executed. He ran on being tough on
crime, `94 crime bill, three strikes and you`re out. New categories of

Was that the wrong thing to do back then?

SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D) ILLINOIS: It was an overreaction. We wanted to
end the threat of crime in our neighborhoods for our families and
overreacted. And now, we know better. Now, we`re going to be smarter in
the way we do this.

Yes, bad people will be incarcerated and they should be. And they
shouldn`t be released until
we`re confident that they`re going to be safe in terms of their own

But we`ve overdone it. And we have filled our prisons at great
expense, at the expense of prevention, at the expense of trying to
eliminate poverty, dealing with education. So, I think we`re trying to
right the balance here and overcome the overreaction of years gone by.


HAYES: A generation ago, a democratic mayor from this city went
before congress and suggested we should decriminalize drugs. He was
ridiculed and he will join me to weigh in on that after this break.



OBAMA: What I think the people of Baltimore want more than anything
else is the truth, that`s what people around the country expect.


HAYES: The president today weighing in on the decision to charge the
six police officers involved in the death of Freddie Gray.

And joining me now, the first elected African-American mayor of
Baltimore, Kurt Schmoke.

Mr. Schmoke, can you tell me your reaction to Marilyn Mosby`s
announcement this morning?

KURT SCHMOKE, FRM. MAYOR OF BALTIMORE: Well, I was actually surprised
that she made that announcement. I thought what she was going to do was to
come out and explain the process. I know the community had a lot of
questions about the whole charging process. But the fact that she laid out
the case and then explained the reason for the charges, I think, was very
helpful to the community.

HAYES: You know, I was going back, reading old newspaper articles
about you in 1988, causing a tremendous controversy. When you went before
congress and you said, maybe we should
think about decriminalizing drugs. And it became a huge national
conversation, a lot of people criticized you.

What is your reaction now as you listen to people in both parties
starting to say, the war
on drug it is a failure. We lock up too many people for non-violent drug

SCHMOKE: Yeah. Well, all I was trying to say back then was that we
ought to have a war on drugs, but it ought to be primarily a public health
war rather than a criminal justice war. And I came to it in somewhat of a
unique position, because I had been both the state`s attorney, as Marilyn
Mosby is now, and mayor of a big city. So I saw the problems from a
somewhat unique perspective.

And I knew that we couldn`t incarcerate our way out of the drug
problem, tried to make the case for more of a public health approach. And
you can see now, more and more people, whether they`re
politicians or law enforcement officials, are talking more about health
strategies rather than trying mass incarceration.

HAYES: What is your – as someone who held the position that Marilyn
Mosby held, what is your sense of her in this job? She`s only four months
into it. And she`s the youngest state`s attorney of any major city in the
country. She`s now got a very, very, very difficult case to make.

SCHMOKE: Well, I know she`s in a difficult position. I really felt
for her. But I was 32 when I was state`s attorney. She`s 35. There`s a
lot of pressure on you from a variety of sources.

But I think that she showed integrity. She laid out the facts. She
has brought together a very good investigative team. And I don`t think
that she was pressured at all politically. I heard one person criticize
her for not having the mayor and the governor around her. I thought that
it was actually good that she didn`t. She showed independence. She laid
out a case.

It`s going to be a tough case, as you know. I think Jane Miller
described it. It`s one thing to charge, quite another to convict. If this
were a civil case of charging or suing for wrongful death, that would be
pretty easy case because the police have admitted negligence. But this is
now a criminal case, where she`s got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

It`s a pretty high standard. So if she believes that she has a strong
case, then I`m glad she moved forward. But the community is really going
to be watching with the great scrutiny to see if, indeed, these charges can
be sustained.

HAYES: Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake has come in for a lot of
criticism this week from all sorts of sides as she was – she pulled the
police back too much, she allowed too much destruction, that she was not
heavy handed enough. Also she`s been criticized for not reforming the
police department quickly enough. What is your reaction to how she has
handled this crisis?

SCHMOKE: Yeah, it`s really tough. When I was the mayor, we had a
couple years where we had extremely high homicide rates. And one year, I
was tempted to ask the national guard to come in to supplement our police

But then adjutant general of the national guard said, that`s the very
last thing you want to do. The last resort. Because it has such a long-
lasting impact and impression on your community. Try everything you can to
control the situation with your local authorities.

And I think that`s what she did. But she recognized that it got to a
point with all these flash mobs going in very unpredictable places, that
she had to call in some support.

So, it was a tough, tough call for her. I know she recognizes how
difficult it was. And it`s hard to second guess when you`re dealing with
that type of situation.

HAYES: Given that you were someone who sort of started to talk about
ending the war on drugs, or changing the way we approach drugs in this
country, do you think we are going to see this
actually play out in policy? Are we going to see a real change in how we
approach this?


I do believe that we`re going to see change. You know, we have
recently elected Republican governor now in a very heavily democratic
state. The first thing he did was to create a commission to look at the
heroin problem in our state. His lieutenant governor has been chairing
that commission. And all the messages they`ve been talking about have been
public health approaches. How do we reduce addiction? How do we move
people from being addicts, that I think that the whole rhetoric has changed
and we`re going to see this policy changed not only at the local level, but
at the national level.

HAYES: Former Baltimore Mayor Kurt Schmoke – thank you so much.

That is “ALL IN” for this evening.


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