Melissa Harris-Perry, Transcript 10/18/15

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: This morning, my question, Mr. Vice president, what`s up? Plus, another video of an unarmed teen shot dead by police. And Tracey Morgan`s triumphant return to "Saturday Night Live." But first, the politics behind the policing of a pumpkin patch. Good morning, I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. And if you haven`t done it yet, you have just 13 days left to get your pumpkin. With Halloween just around the corner it`s something of a tradition, and quite frankly kind of an adorable one, parents taking their little ones out to big fields of pumpkins and letting the kids pick out just the right one. It`s also a pretty cost-friendly way to spend an afternoon. At elf steed farms in Chester, New Jersey a pick your own pumpkin cost just 65 cents a pound. I mean, even if your kid picks out a five-pound pumpkin you are looking at three bucks around an hour`s worth of entertainment. And that`s not it. Out of errata farms in Half-moon Bay, California, you can get a pumpkin for just a dollar, $1. Now, in Virginia at Cox farms in Centerville, you can get a nice soon to be Jacko lantern for 69 cents a pound. But know this. If you decide to go get your pumpkin at Cox farms in Centerville, some local police might take exception, specifically Brad Carrothers. "The Washington Post" reported this week that Mr. Carrothers, the president of the Fair Fox paternal order of police lodge 77 said he would not patronize Centerville`s dock farms and urged others do the same in a lengthy message posted on the union`s Facebook page on Tuesday. And if you are wondering what could possibly have led to a feud between the police and the pumpkin patch, well, the answer might surprise you, Black Lives Matter. Take a look at this screen grab from Carrothers` Facebook page. He posted quote "I holy hope you will join me and my police family and make a choice to go somewhere else to enjoy your family front this fall where you are not be confronted by such baseless criticism and judgment. And the photo he posted, if you look really closely in that window there, that`s a sign that says Black Lives Matter. And that house is near Cox farm. It is a private resident that belongs to one of the farm`s five owners. That`s it. That was enough for the head of the police union to call for a boycott of the pumpkin farm. There is a sign in the window which reading, Black Lives Matter. Mr. Carrothers took his post down after dozens of comments on Facebook, many of which were not polite so we called Mr. Carrothers ourselves to ask him about his post. He explained this thinking to us. The reason why I responded to it not because of what Black Lives Matter originated from. The original goals were pro police. However, unfortunately, the movement of Black Lives Matter has been hijacked by people who have an antipolice sentiment. In several social media post, they call for violence against law enforcement officers and their family. And the chants and demonstrations are very antipolice. Their original ideas are whole heartedly accepted. So Mr. Carrothers assures us that he too believes Black Lives Matter. But he also believes that Black Lives Matter as a movement has been hijacked by antipolice activists prepared to enact violence against the law enforcement community. The sign as he sees it is neither simply a statement of fact that black lives do matter nor is it a gesture of support for democratic accountability and transparency in policing. For Mr. Carrothers, the sign is an act of aggression, a threat. And what police officers find threatening matters a lot. Because the perception of threat is a critical legal ingredient for determining if an officer`s use of force is justified. Or, as Vox explained back in April, there are plenty of guidelines for use of force by police. But it too often boils down to what the officer believed when the force was used regardless of how much of a threat actually existed. So what started out as a seemingly inconsequential story about a pumpkin patch is sequential, indeed. Now we know there are officers who believe Black Lives Matter is inherently threatening. And the consequences of that belief may prove to be very real. Which is also why the response of the pumpkin patch owners is so important. On Thursday, the Cox family released a -- may I say comprehensive statement that reads in part, as a family we believe that Black Lives Matter. And we find it alarming that the statement insights such a backlash neither are sign nor the black lives matter movement says that only Black Lives Matter or that Black Lives Matter more than anyone else. And the sign certainly doesn`t say anything about police officers valuing black lives and respecting the lives and work and police officers are not mutually exclusive. Then they go on to right, about 15 years ago, some consumers boycotted our fall festival because we flew rainbow flags over our hay tunnel and they concern that Cox farm was quote "promoting the homosexual agenda." Our business has continue to grow and our rainbows are still flying. Hell, I know where I am going for my pumpkin this year. Joining me today are Victoria DeFrancesco who is an MSNBC contributor and director of communications for Latino decisions, Noel Cazenave, who is a professor of sociology at the University of Connecticut and author of "Conceptualizing racism, breaking the chains of racially accommodative language." Monica Dennis, regional coordinator for Black Lives Matter New York City. And Jon Shane, associate professor of criminal justice at John Jay College and a retired captain for New York police department. Thank you all for being here. (CROSSTALK) HARRIS-PERRY: Let me start with you because there just is no evidence that the Black Lives Matter movement has endangered police officers at least in terms of leading directly to harm done to these officers. In fact, 2015 is on track to be the safest year since 2013, which had been the safest year in a while. So why do you think this perception is so powerful right now? MONICA DENNIS, REGIONAL COORDINATOR, BLACK LIVES MATTER NEW YORK CITY: I think this perception is just part of a long historical frame about who is threatening, who is violent, who is criminal, right? So since the inception of this country that`s always been placed on black bodies. So to have police responding to communities that are saying we actually matter and we are resisting police violence is actually kind of generating some cognitive dissonance in police forces around the country. And I think it`s very interesting that the president of the police union does not boycott as an individual citizen, but he use his leverage and his positional authority as part of the police union to say this is what we should be boycotting. So, it is intimidation, it is control of a farm that`s actually very supportive of police. There is a long history of this farm. So if you are going to do this to someone that`s very supportive of police forces I`m curious to see what would happen if you are talking about regular citizens who dissent. HARRIS-PERRY: You know, it is a nice point that every individual, every individual in a society of consumption can make a choice to consume or not consume, whatever is appropriate relative to their own world view. But it is something different when you call on it from a particular perspective. Jon, look, we started with a pumpkin patch story, which in certain ways is ridiculous. But then, isn`t it ridiculous when Mr. Carrothers said to us basically it feels like a threat. Because this question of feeling threatened is everything when it comes to police aggression. JON SHANE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: Well, I think what you are going to have here is a political issue that boils down to the police chief and some of the elected officials coming to bat for the form and for policing in general. What has happened is that this black lives movement -- there is a wide SWAT of law enforcement that believes it has come out of or is an outgrowth of that hands up don`t shoot movement which was debunked largely by a lot of investigations that have found that either witnesses lied or factual statements were made and then recanted. And as that movement grew and this outgrowth was Black Lives Matter now that gets branded with hands up don`t shoot. What we know that that was false now. This is false -- HARRIS-PERRY: Bu Jon, but I want to pause on the idea that this was false. Because on the one hand I agree with you, clearly the DOJ report has suggested that in fact, Mr. Brown did not have his hands up at the moment of shooting. But I have to say that`s not really what the movement was based on or required. But the movement was also about the fact he was unarmed. The movement was in part about the fact that that young man was left laying in the street for those hours. And it`s about the fact that the DOJ report also shows patterns and practices of the police department that go far beyond that one interaction. So I would have to say like I don`t experience the Ferguson movement as false. SHANE: But I think there is a wide SWAT of the law enforcement community that does. And I think they feel butchered by the fact that the independent investigation by the DOJ report and the local prosecutors support their feeling. HARRIS-PERRY: So that gap in perception strikes me as -- I mean, like I don`t even really quite know how to ask the question at this point. NOEL CAZENAVE, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT: Well, John said what`s going on is political, and you are exactly right. But what goes on with the fact that African-American are being killed by the police and by vigilante groups and members with impunity is what is ultimately political. And what`s going to stop these crazy, insane killings is a change in power relations such that the police know that they cannot kill African-Americans and get away with it. They don`t kill arrogant, wealthy European Americans. HARRIS-PERRY: Well, actually, in fact, they do. I mean, so we`re going to talk about that in a minute. CAZENAVE: To any extent that they kill -- I`m talking about the prevalence of these killings. I`m talking about how regular these killings are. I`m not talking about the lone history of these killings. I`m not talking about an isolated killing that makes the news because it is so isolated and special. I`m talking about a long pattern of killing and abuse that goes back to the racial control of African-Americans by the various law enforcement officials back to slave controls. SHANE: I recognize that. But at the same time it is clearly not the movement in the United States that police officers kill with impunity. There is a very, very well established procedural due process that takes place and every time a police officer uses deadly force. And to say that we don`t care for the outcome is not suitable because justice guarantees no outcome. It guarantees a process. We call that due process and we let it play itself out. And I know we don`t like the outcome sometimes. HARRIS-PERRY: But Jon, let me get Vicky in on that one. VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO SOTO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: We are talking about pressure and we are talking about politics. But I want to talk about the optics of it. And we have a crisis between our communities of color and our police departments. And we are starting to see a spiraling of a vicious cycle. What we need to do is stop this vicious cycle. And part of that is something as simple as public relations where if the police department or a police representative does not go out and criticize a pumpkin patch for advocating Black Lives Matter that would help the relationship on the ground when the police officer is out there in the community. So even just what can be done in term of public relations, in terms of community engagement can affect what ultimately happens on the streets late at not. HARRIS-PERRY: I`m going to tell who I am going to put in-charge of it. I put the Cox family in charge of it. I just have got to read one thing from them because they were just everything. As a family we are antiracist and pro justice. We recognize that systemic racism is real. We embrace our role as allies working to dismantle it. At any point, we completely mainstream presidential candidates openly recognize Black Lives Matter as a legitimate organization and a crucial voice in the conversation about racial justice and racism in this country. It was shocking for us to see the virtual expressed about the sign in our family`s window. Is this some radical declaration from Cox farm? No. Is this the Cox farm family endorsing killing police officers? Of course, not. And if you read anything from the actual organization, neither is Black Lives Matter. Go get your pumpkins at Cox farms, my friend. More when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you look at the Black Lives Matter movement, one of the most disturbing things is more than one of their protests have embraced rabid rhetoric rabid antipolice language, literally suggesting and embracing and celebrating the murder of police officers. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: So that was Senator Ted Cruz talking to Think Progress earlier this week. So here`s what he want to acknowledge. There is this kind of one few seconds moment in one Black Lives Matter protest that got caught on tape. This maybe the wrong way to think about it, but that we have heard from. So maybe we want to listen to that for a second. So I think it will give us a sense then -- This was at the Minnesota state fair about what they are responding to and then I will come to you on that. (VIDEO CLIP PLAYING) HARRIS-PERRY: So, you are looking at a national movement operating all these different levels. That though, becomes the video that says this is a violent antipolice movement. But I got to say, when it comes to rabid rhetoric, I`m going to go with the GOP primary over black lives matter as a consistent thing for rabid rhetoric. DENNIS: I would have to give a high five on that, for sure. Again, I think it`s so interesting the focusing on anybody that chooses to say we want to stay alive. We expect police departments across the country to protect us, to maintain our safety. And when they do not, we will resist. So whether it`s rhetoric that makes people feel uncomfortable or actually people standing up and saying the truth of what it is, there is no need to apologize for what it is that Black Lives Matter is putting forth. The right to be safe and to live, simply that. HARRIS-PERRY: I want to push more on this idea about threat. We saw this week really tough video of a young man in D.C., Jason Goldsby who had just gone in to take money out of his -- out of the ATM, and he holds the door open for a white couple with their stroller and then the police are called in. And then the video of the arrest is pretty tough to watch. And, again, that idea that just a young man just going to get cash out is perceived as a threat. CAZENAVE: Yes, I think that`s really when you look at a lot of these issues you have to go back to this whole notion of a threat. We were talking about police perceiving a threat before. And I think the police perceived this threat because people are telling them they cannot continue to do business as usual and that is threatening to them. And one of the things that we really need to understand when we talk about what`s happening with African-Americans, that it`s happening with impunity. These police are doing it so frequently because there are no consequences. And again, if there were consequence, they would stop. And to put this in a larger historical context, this notion of African- Americans as threatening goes way back through African-American history. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. CAZENAVE: After African-Americans were -- every time it seems that African-Americans have made some progress, it has been perceived as being a threat. After the end of slavery, then there was lynching, and then there was share cropping, and a whole host of white racial backlash. And that`s what we`re experience against if Black Lives Matter right now, white backlash. HARRIS-PERRY: So Vicky, I want to bring you in on this idea of threat and sort of how then it ends up playing out in our system. DEFRANCESCO: So politically, we have seen the GOP very much characterize the Black Lives Matter as antipolice. But the irony here is that communities of color, African-American communities, Latino communities want police protection. They desperately want police to come into their neighborhoods because who are the folks that are most likely to suffer a crime? People of color. So they create this false dichotomy in terms of political rhetoric where in fact if you listen clearly, it`s Black Lives Matter, we need your cooperation, we need your broke. We are not antipolice. DENNIS: I`d have to stay that -- HARRIS-PERRY: I promise we are going to stay on this topic. But before we go to break, I do want to do a piece of somber news. Because we want to update our audience on this morning, something we have reported on in this program before. 2015 has already been a year for remarkable progress for the transgender community. The White House hired its first openly trans-staffer, (INAUDIBLE). And other progress has been made in popular culture helping to bring issues facing trans-gender communities into the mainstream. But for the transgender community 2015 has also been a year of loss. More specifically, this year has been one of historic rate of murder of trans- people. In the past on this program, we brought you the names and stories of transgender women, most of them women of color, already killed this year. And now we`re going to have to pause to add another name and to remember Zella Ziona. Buzz Feed reports that the 21-year-old Zella was shot and killed Thursday evening in the suburb of Washington, D.C. The article note Ziona is the 21st confirmed transgender or gender nonconforming person killed this year. The highest number reported by the national coalition of antiviolence programs which tracks LGBT people. On Friday night, at approximately 8:00 p.m. Montgomery County police in Maryland made an arrest in the case and the suspect is being charged with first-degree murder and he is also being held without bond. Also on Friday evening friends and family gathered at the spot where Zella was killed bringing candles and balloons. Friends described her as amazing and an inspiration who helped others understand their own identity. Zella will be missed. And up next, 17 years old, unarmed stopped by the police and shot by police seven times. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: On Wednesday, a Michigan family filed a federal lawsuits against a police officer who shot and killed and unarmed teenager during a traffic stop in February. The encounter begin when 17-year-old Devan Gilford was stopped by Sargent Jonathan Frost after Gilford his lights at Frost because he thought the officers high beams were turned on. Now, video recorded by Sergeant Frost`s body cam shows a roughly four- minute exchange in which Frost makes several request for license, registration and insurance which Gilford decline to produce. Then this was what happened next. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, out of the car. Out of the car. You are going to get tased. Out of the car or you are going to get tased. Everything is (INAUDIBLE) so I got no problem with that. Get out of the car. Get down on the ground now. Down on the ground now. Down on the ground. Right here facing me, down on the ground now. Get on the ground right now. Put your face down and put your arms up to your side now. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Then Sergeant Frost attempts to arrest Gilford. And when he resists a scuffle ensued and the officer discharges his taser at the teen. What happened next is not visible on the body cam video but only seconds later the recording captured the sound of seven gunshots, all of which struck Gilford. He died at the scene. In June, the prosecutor of Michigan County declined to bring charges against the Sergeant Frost after reviewing the evidence including a three month independent investigation by the state police in determining Sergeant Frost used his firearm within the limit of Michigan`s defense of the law. In a statement this week about the decision to bring the lawsuit, Gilford`s parent says quote "we had always had great respect for law enforcement and the men and women who choose that profession in the past. But we must say the belief has been shaken to the core by the action of Frost and the refusal of the Eaton County prosecutor to hold Frost accountable. The failed criminal justice system forces us to seek other avenues for some kind of justice for Devin. And that for me, officer -- Jon, is really like -- you said the process matters and the fact that there were not even charges brought here I think is exactly the kind of process that makes people feels like no, there is not a process here. SHANE: That`s an outcome. Charges are an outcome of something. Process is what happens in between the incident and the outcome. So, when they suggest that they are upset because the charges were not brought, it does not mean that the officer was not held account. Accountability means subordinating yourself to a process, a legal process grounded in law that allows you to publicly account for your behavior and the law allows officers to use force when they believe that they need to do so. HARRIS-PERRY: But he shot a kid that he knew was unarmed at that point seven times. SHANE: But the physical evidence - Melissa, the physical evidence, from what I have read, the physical evidence bears witness to the fact that the officer believes his life was in jeopardy. There are photographs, there is physical evidence otherwise. HARRIS-PERRY: And so, but then we get to the crux of it in part. I mean, you know, it`s interesting that you said earlier, they don`t shoot white kids. But this video in fact helps to remind us that they do. And in fact a new "New York Times" piece out this morning suggests that individual bias might be part of it. But it is literally just about the number of repeated interactions. And so, part of the reason you have more people of color is because the police interact with us more. DENNIS: Absolutely. So one, the process is failing. Right? So that`s just what it is. We know that to be true. So, to say that criminal justice officers are actually being subjected to -- or subjecting themselves to a measure of accountability does not actually prove outright. And that there is no transparency around what those measures of accountability are. We have to ask ourselves why do we even need body cameras to begin with, right, because we know something unlawful and desperate and ultimately ending in death is going on. So that`s the first question. And then to be able to talk about -- to kind of make those connections to implicit bias that you are talking about. That implicit bias we know is hard wired into our brains. And that often it is in direct contradictions to the beliefs and the attitudes that we hold true and dear. So the police officers, I could say that I actually believe in the safety and upholding communities and then actually kill black and white, you know, bodies desperately in numbers, right? And so, it is really important to be able to look at also how that implicit bias is being shaped by the constant messaging of who is violent, who is threatful, and who is unlawful. HARRIS-PERRY: Sure. And I hear you. And I hear you on bias. And I mean clearly that is a critical aspect of this. I guess part of it, though, for me is always -- because I always want to talk about structures and systems, I also want to think about the structures and systems faces police officers. I do want to just take a moment to read, the Eaton county sheriff did release a statement saying the incident is a tragedy for everyone involved, certainly for the Gilford family, but also for John Frost and all the men and women of Eaton County sheriff`s office and the entire Eaton County community. The last thing Sergeant Frost or any law enforcement officer wants to do is be put into a position where he is compelled to use his firearm to defend his life when that occurs is understandable and reasonable decision to use the firearm will be challenged and scrutinized by many sources. And I have got to say, you know, you were talking about sort of the language that can be used to build trust. And like when there is a dead child, saying that it is a tragedy for everybody doesn`t really go very far on that at all. DEFRANCESCO: There is a hunger for transparency is what we want. And yes, the body cameras are a good first step. But I think sometimes we think they are a panacea. All right, we have body cameras and things are going to be OK. That`s just the very beginning. So the next stage is that process. And our law enforcement should be held accountable. We are not saying that should be held accountable more so than others. But they should be held accountable. We want to see the process play out in public. HARRIS-PERRY: I`m not even convinced the body cameras are a good idea. DEFRANCESCO: I agree. SHANE: The public is the grand jury. HARRIS-PERRY: How is the grand jury a public process? SHANE: All members of the community come together to listen to the circumstantial evidence are selected impartially and they are seated. HARRIS-PERRY: I have got say. So what I will say -- SHANE: That`s part of the accountability. HARRIS-PERRY: What I will say I think then potentially that is even a greater danger than, Jon, is if the language, if the discourse becomes, well, as long as there is process, as long as there is some version of community accountable, then what happens is people stop believing in law altogether. Because they will say well, if this is lawful, this is what constitutes justified, but my moral and ethical and like clear human nature says no, that`s wrong. Then it suggests that the law - I mean, it may in fact be lawful, but lawful may be different than what is right and wrong. SHANE: That`s a matter of political debate and that is something that has to go back through public debate, through legislature, through elected officials and through our point of --. HARRIS-PERRY: And our process. DENNIS: That`s a challenge that rarely gets to the level of public debate, right? That the public actually has some input in what is actually happening in their communities. And that is why you have movement across the United States actually rising up and saying we actually demanding accountability we don`t feel safe. HARRIS-PERRY: We are going to stay more. But up next, the family of Tamir Rice calls up for justice. More when we come back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SAMARIA RICE, TAMIR RICE`S MOTHER: It is a senseless shooting of my son Tamir Rice, I have had many sleepless nights and days. Almost a year now, no justice, no peace. I am very disappointed in the way Timothy McGintly is handling this case. I would like for him to step down and allow an independent prosecutor to take over Tamir Rice case. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: That was Samaria Rice, whose 12-year-old son Tamir was playing with what turned out to be a toy pellet gun when he was fatally shot by Clinton police last November. On Friday, attorneys for Rice`s family sent a letter to the Cuyahoga prosecutor Tim McGinty criticizing his handling of the case including his decision to publicly release the results of two expert reports that concluded the shooting was justified. The attorneys told McGinty in the letter it now appears that the grand jury presentation will be nothing short of a charade aimed at whitewashing this police killing of a 12-year- old child. And according to the Columbus dispatch, McGinty and his spokesman says they welcome criticism about the reports and emphasize that the reports don`t represent any conclusions nor indicative of the recommendation prosecutors will make to the grand jury. I mean, I remember Nick Christophe (ph) saying on the twitter that activists should have focus less on Michael Brown and more on Tamir Rice. And a year later, I foal like, what`s good, Mr. Christophe, because seems hard to get justice on any of it. DEFRANCESCO: And I think what is so important here that we see the face of a child. And our hope was that this innocence would allow not just the black community, but the nonblack community to come together and rally on this. But we keep seeing roadblocks. And based on this, we need to pick up on a point made earlier which is what we need to change the laws, what about the process? And I think this needs to be long-term strategy where we start lobbying our different state law makers to change the law so that when something is brought in court cases there is more transparency. So I think maybe the target needs to be changed just from, say, the court system, and move it on up to the state legislature. HARRIS-PERRY: And also say as much as I`m not necessarily a fan of body cameras or I`m not sure what they do, I am a fan of data collection. And part of the problem, you know, the assertions we are making about use of force we are making because we think that`s what true but we are not completely sure because of lack of data. But the new VGA program out of the DOJ is going to use this open source methodology and local news reports and presumably we are going to ends up with better data. But the very fact that we don`t know what the numbers are on use of force is kind of stunning in a democracy. CAZENAVE: Well, I think as African-Americans we know what the numbers are because we have we experience the numbers and we have been experiencing these numbers for centuries now. And there has been a lot of talk about process. People care that the process not only exists but that the process is fair. If you look at a city like New York City, for example, we see that almost - - no matter what the police do, they are not going to be indicted and they are certainly not going to be convicted. And so people, there is an inherent understanding of these statistics, if you will. Today we`re talking about a young man who was killed in Michigan. And we are talking about that. And it`s -- that received a lot of attention because he is a European American, and because it`s not just standard African-American who is being killed by the police. So it is a red herring in that sense. There are appearance, there are trends that we have to look at. And we have to yes, Jon is correct. We have to look at ultimately, we have to stop this. Not as a police problem, but it is a political problem. HARRIS-PERRY: Right. But I feel that is precisely what the Black Lives Matter movement is attempting to deal with it as a political problem. (INAUDIBLE) was twitting about the movement leaders meeting with Bernie Sanders, meeting with Hillary Clinton. And in fact trying to make a difference in the political sphere. DENNIS: Absolutely. And we think there are multiple roads to solving this problem, right? And the problem is not just criminal justice. It is, what are the conditions that are compounded generation after generation that are producing the same desperate outcomes in black communities, right? And so, some people are choosing to meet with political candidates. Many of us are organizing in community and because we can`t make decisions about what is helpful for black communities if we are not talking about black communities. There are lots of people that have been organizing historically. This is not new. We are part of a continuum that we are building upon. And so, we are trying to link the data to actual people`s stories because it is a shame that actually we have to have data to prove why we should keep living. HARRIS-PERRY: Right, what the experience is. Thank you to Jon Shane. The rest of the panel is sticking around. Still to come this morning, the latest on vice president Joe Biden`s decision on 2016 and preview of secretary Clinton`s Benghazi testimony. But up next, my letter of the week. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Many of us keep a framed photograph of a beloved family member who has passed away on our (INAUDIBLE) near our bedsides. Maybe that picture captured something unique about the person we have lost, the Brad smile or the tedious grin, maybe the passionate eyes. We know they are gone but the photo eases the pain by letting us escape to the moments we shared in life. But if we lost our beloved not at the end of the long illness, but instead through the tragic horror of gun violence, then the picture we choose to show the world is not just about personal memories. It`s about the political stories their lives and deaths tell. After George Zimmermann killed Trayvon Martin in 2012, there was significant public debate about which photos of Trayvon media outlets should use when reporting the story. Is he too young in this photo? Is this one too iconic? Is this one too prejudicial? The debate began again in 2014. This time we saw the death images first. Images of Michael Brown lying face down in the street in Ferguson went viral. But even after the public had seen him in death there were questions about how to portray Michael Brown in life. Should we see him at his best moments or at his less compelling? Social media offered a painful response as young black people asked, quote "if they gunned me down, what picture would they use?" The question itself and the discordant side by side images offered by young African-Americans acknowledged that even inconsequential moments snapped in a fleeting moment can suddenly take on profound public significance in the context of a violent death. Now, there is one D.C. mom whose daughter was murdered more than five years ago who is on a crusaded to ensure we pay attention to the photos of death just as much as to the images of life. And that is why my letter of the week goes to (INAUDIBLE). Dear Ms. Jeffries, it is me Melissa. And I want you to know I have seen the picture, the one of your 16-year-old daughter, Brichell Jones (ph). Her body rent and the skin peeled back and the bone exposed in the muscles as a bowl I have seen it. And it took my breath away and it made my stomach turn and it made my knees weak and I closed my eyes and shook my head and looked away. And you don`t want me to look away. You want me, you want all of us to see what the bullets from that AK-47 did to your precious girl. Bullets finally end dispute that had nothing to do with Brichell (ph) at all. When you first started testifying about (INAUDIBLE) death, you brought the smiling photo of a teenager full of life believing that lawmakers would see what had been lost and be move to action. But it`s been more than five year years and hundreds of children continue to die annually from gunshot wounds and it seems no one is willing to do anything to stop it. So although I know you would rather remember your little girl full of life and love, now you bring the grizzly, brutal graphic photo of brie decimated by the bullets of an AK-47 to the head. You have carried it with you to city council meetings and bring it to one on one sit-downs and you show it to reporters and you insist, I just can`t see myself talking about gun violence without showing what gun violence is. This image is burned into my memory bank. It doesn`t make sense for me to keep showing pictures of what she looked like before. So you take your place alongside Mamie Till when her 14-year-old son was dragged from his family`s home during a visit to Mississippi in 1955 and tortured and murdered and discarded like trash. Ms. Till held on open casket funeral and asked Jet magazine to publish the photographs of his brutalized body. And those photographs helped launch the civil rights movement. And you hope the grizzly images of Brie`s death will do the same. Maybe. Maybe seeing the horror would be enough. But maybe not. When the parents of Newton Connecticut opposed release of the Sandy Hook massacre images they openly worried about copycat killers and the traumatic affect the images could have on so many. And it is because of that concern about trauma that I`m not showing the photo of your daughter today. But you know what? It might just be because I lack the courage, the courage to see that picture broadcast here on this Sunday morning in this place. Maybe I`m failing to be brave. And of course, see, I can make that choice. I can look away. And you, Miss Jeffries, cannot. The reality of what that gun did to your girl is written in your soul. And maybe eventually we will all find the courage to face it, as you have been forced to do. Sincerely, Melissa. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Seven months after Michael Brown`s death in Ferguson, Missouri, a justice department civil rights investigation concluded the Ferguson police department and the city`s court system engaged in quote "a pattern and practice of discrimination against African-Americans." Now, this pattern included unconstitutional tops and overuse for tickets for minor violations increased court fees and jail time for those unable to pay. Now, a new year-long investigation by ProPublica reveals another devastating source of financial hardship for black communities, debt collection lawsuits. And according to the report quote "companies now routinely use the courts to pursue millions of people over even over hall small consumer debts. With the power granted by a court judgment, collectors can receive a chunk of a debtor`s pay. It can be a small credit card ads or an auto loan or even overdue sewer bill. And ProPublica`s analysis of five years of court judgments in three cities, St. Louis, Chicago, and Newark, showed that even accounting for income, the rate of judgments was twice as high in mostly black neighborhoods as it was in mostly white ones. One of the ProPublica reporters who crunched the numbers and interviewed countless residents Paul Kiel joins me now. So Paul, talk to me about this. This felt when I read it like chapter two of the reporting that Tanya Hessy has done around segregation. And then this is the thing that racial segregation that allowed to be possible. PAUL KIEL, REPORTER, PROPUBLICA: Right. I mean, a real common factor there is we were looking for causes of this, why does this happen is when we crunch the numbers we were adjusting for income. So we were finding twice as many of these court judgments in mostly black communities as most to white communication with the same income which made us look at the racial wealth gap. So, you know, even if you look at the same income level for whites and blacks you will find, you know, five times as much wealth in the white families as the black families. Additionally, looking at networks, so that sort of compounds across the community. So you can`t go to your mom, you can`t go to your grand mom because, you know, everyone has the same situation in terms of a lack of wealth. HARRIS-PERRY: Or if you do go to them - I mean, I think that was one of the things that for me that was just painful, was Laura Ingraham, who is the manager of this foreclosure intervention department in St. Louis saying I can`t tell you the number of times I have had a 55 to 65-year-old African-American woman who can`t make her mortgage payment because she has helped out other members of the family to the detriment of keeping herself afloat. So if you do go to them, right, it is -- you are taking out of nothingness. KIEL: Right. Who is this strong members of the community that, you know, the grandmothers or whoever have their own home, they get drawn on, you know, and then get overdrawn. And then, you know, we take one example of a woman who is retired. She should be, you know, kind of living out her life. She owns her own home but she has a daughter living in her home and she was trying to help other hut. Ended up getting up sued over her sewer bill when she fell behind and then her bank account was cleared out, you know. So the situations like that. It exacerbates what is already is sort of a stretched community. HARRIS-PERRY: And I think this is, you know, I read reporting like this. And the level of injustice and the kind of long reaching effects. And I think but there is no salacious video. And so, as a result it can be harder to draw attention to this kind of injustice. DENNIS: Absolutely. Absolutely it`s harder to draw attention. And the impact is daily, it is chronic, it is acute, right? And then it`s connected to again these patterns of policy that are supposed to be colorblind policy to collect debt or to create home ownership or and what`s not being looked at is what are the predatory undertones that are actually happening. So my question is to any business, any nonprofit that is creating some practice or policy are you doing any type of racial equity assessment? Who is going to be disproportionately impacted as you put out a simple across the board debt collection policy? And the results of your reporting shows that it is disproportionately going to be black families. DEFRANCESCO: In reading this report, I was incredibly saddened. I wasn`t surprise but I was very saddened. And then I couldn`t help but thinking about the predatory lending that`s linked to it. I was reading this and I just got more depressed because you look across the country and in the quick loans and the title loans are all set up to prey on people who have no safety net because of these debt collections situations. So I`m not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. HARRIS-PERRY: And again, I just got to -- I want to quote again from the piece "34 million, right, banks, hospitals, utilities, auto and high cost lenders have seized $34 million from residents of St. Louis`s mostly black neighborhoods between 2008 and 2012." I mean, that kind of transfer of wealth in this way just seems unjust in every possible way. DENNIS: Immoral. KIEL: Right. And I mean, another key thing is it`s kind of -- so we use one example in story of a woman named Corey Winfield, who went to a used car, you are not getting a subprime auto line in 2009, right. She ended up falling behind. Because of the system they repossessed her car. She still had a debt left over after they took the car and auctioned it off. It is running at 30 percent interest because she had a high interest loan. So they sue her and that allows them to garnish her wages. But it`s still at a high interest rate. So when the car was repossessed. She owed like $5,000. Has already had more than $85,000 took it on her paychecks to single mother of four kids. HARRIS-PERRY: So $10,000 for a car not in your possession. KIEL: Right. CAZENAVE: And racism may not be obvious. But the hands of racism are always there. HARRIS-PERRY: They are screaming at me. I have got to go. Vicky will be back on the next hour. Thank you to Noel Cazenave, to Monica Dennis and to Paul Kiel. Still to come this morning. Tracey Morgan`s triumphant return to "Saturday Night Live," the wide open GOP race. And at the top of the hour, the most anticipated testimony of 2015, at least anticipated by the republicans. More Nerdland in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Welcome back. I`m Melissa Harris-Perry. This coming Thursday former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will testify in front of the House Select Committee on Benghazi. The committee is charged with investigating the terrorist attack on a U.S. compound in Benghazi, Libya in September of 2012 in which four Americans were killed including the U.S. ambassador to Libya, Chris Stevens. Clinton was secretary of state at the time. The committee`s chairman, republican Congressman Trey Gowdy says, there were three main questions he wants the panel to address. One, why did the U.S. have a presence in Benghazi considering the security risk there? Two, what did the U.S. government do to protect American personnel in facilities during the attack? And three, what was the administration`s explanation for how the attacks happened and how did it, quote, "evolve?" One of Hillary`s long time aides, Huma Abedin, who served as her deputy chief of staff in the State Department was questioned Friday behind closed doors. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HUMA ABEDIN, TOP AIDE FOR HILLARY CLINTON: I came here today to be as helpful as I could be to the committee. I appreciated the time of both the members and the committee staff today. And I answered all their questions to the best of my ability. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Clinton has accused Republicans of using the committee as a political weapon with the sole purpose of damaging her chances in the 2016 presidential race. In recent weeks the former secretary has seized on comments by House republican leader Kevin McCarthy, who credited the Benghazi committee with bringing down Clinton`s poll numbers. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They have admitted it is a political partisan committee for the sole purpose of going after me. Not trying to make our diplomats who serve in dangerous areas safer. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: The panel`s Republican`s chair maintains that he is focused only on a thorough accounting of what happened in Benghazi. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. TREY GOWDY, CHAIR, BENGHAZI COMMITTEE: We are going to have a professional fact centric firm but fair conversation with the person who happened be the Secretary of State at all relevant times before, during and after Benghazi. So you have to talk to Secretary Clinton, there is no way to have a credible investigation without doing so. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: Thursday will not be the first time Clinton testifies on Benghazi. Seven other Congressional committees have investigated the attacks and concluded that the State Department could have done more to respond to security and protect the Benghazi compounds. At the table this hour with me, Victoria DeFrancesco, who is a MSNBC contributor and director of communications for Latino decisions. Basil Smikle -- who is executive director of the New York State Democratic Party. Sabrina Siddiqui who is political reporter for the Guardian. And republican strategist Susan Del Percio. So nice to have you all here. Susan, let me start with you. SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Sure. HARRIS-PERRY: So, is this a committee for the purpose of investigating Benghazi or is this a political matter? DEL PERCIO: Well, I think what Kevin McCarthy said certainly hurt the credibility of the committee. So, it almost doesn`t matter going in right now. The perception is that it was created -- it`s given Hillary Clinton great advantage going into this. And she has use it quite well. Now, what she does when she testifies will be interesting. I expect that she will actually do quite well. This is right in her belly with. But she has to really watch her temperament. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. DEL PERCIO: And if I were her I`d really stick to as many of the facts and not play the political card until afterwards. Don`t play the political card in the hearing but afterwards if she chooses to talk to the press then she can play it. Because it`s already been leading up to that and that`s what she should do. The Republicans on the other hand have to make sure they have a very pointed specific questions to offer her. They have to now be more conscientious than ever not to seem partisan. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. It`s interesting. I want to listen to two different sort of takes out of the Republicans in the House. Obviously, in the Senate. So, one is a House member, Representative Richard Hanna on Wednesday. And then we`ll listen actually after that to the chair of the committee himself, Senator Gowdy, excuse me, Representative Gowdy talking about the earlier remarks. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. RICHARD HANNA (R-NY), ON BENGHAZI COMMITTEE: Sometimes the biggest sin you can commit in D.C. is to tell the truth. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. HANNA: You know? And I -- this may not be politically correct, but I think that there is a big part this investigation that was designed to go after people. An individual, Hillary Clinton. REP. TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thursday is about the three questions in Benghazi, what happened before, during and after. And frankly, in Secretary Clinton`s defense she is going to have a lot more information about the before than she is the during and the after. So, I get that there is a presidential campaign going on. I have told my own republican colleagues and friends, shut up talking about things that you don`t know anything about. And unless you are on the committee, you have no idea what we`ve done, why we`ve done it, and what new facts we have found. (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: So, that`s Chairman Gowdy on "Face the Nation" on CBS this morning. What do you think about what`s happening internally for the party right now? BASIL SMIKLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NEW YORK STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Well, I mean, to go back to something that Susan said earlier, I think they need to figure out what the purpose of this hearing actually is. We`re at seven or eight committee hearings now. This most recent ones is total about $4.7 million, more expensive than it was to figure out what happened after Katrina. And so, at this point, I don`t see -- HARRIS-PERRY: Katrina was on tape. SMIKLE: I don`t see what is new. I don`t really see what`s new information Secretary Clinton is going to provide. And whatever could have been brought out of this hearing that would be considered legitimate has been delegitimatized because of the politics. Just to jump in is, the last hearing is when we found out about her private e-mail account. So, things do happen during these hearings. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. DEL PERCIO: And the public really does separate what happened in Benghazi and her e-mail account issue. But that did come out of the last hearing. So when Trey Gowdy says there may be more information to come that they are not aware of. HARRIS-PERRY: So, I think this to me Susie, seems so important. And part of it goes to your earlier advice, which is, you know, the more that she sticks to it straight, even if it goes to the politics on the back end. And so, it does seem to me that there is always like risk, right? You as a candidate, even if you are talking about your time as secretary of state, you as a candidate sitting there in front of that committee, is only downside as far as I can see. SABRINA SIDDIQUI, POLITICAL REPORTER, THE GUARDIAN: Right. And I think that she is going to take this very seriously. Her campaign has, you know, even said for example after that debate moment where Bernie Sanders said that the American public is sick and tired of hearing about your e-mails and that was sort of this big debate that a got arise. Especially among the Democrats who largely do not view the e-mails as you were Benghazi obviously the same way that Republicans do as a matter of great suspicion. The campaign was still single. Look, she is going to go, she`s going to testify, she`s going to take this moment very seriously. And as Susan said, you know, the Republicans have already had this self-inflicted wound where going into this moment you didn`t have just some of the republican lawmakers who have come out and said, confirm what is Washington`s worst kept secretary, that is to try to go after Hillary Clinton in some way. You also had an investigator who was a republican on that committee who has accused the committee of firing him for not focusing his investigation on Hillary Clinton. And that is something that got a lot of traction within the media, too. So, there are now number of voices who were saying, this has been about Hillary Clinton. We haven`t produced the smoking gun that Republicans seem to believe that there is with respect to Benghazi. And it`s unclear that they`re actually going to get there. They`re certainly haven`t shown throughout this course that they have something, specifically there. HARRIS-PERRY: And it feels to me like it strikes a particularly discordant, for optic in part when the House Republicans are unable to kind of solidify their own leadership. And this is what I think was driving me nuts, this idea that they are holding up many Obama era or Obama administration nominations for these posts. Everything from ambassadors to these other nominations are just languishing in committee. And I`m like, you have time for eight Benghazis but not to like get folks out of committee. VICTORIA DEFRANCESCO, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: We have seen Republicans focused so exclusively on Benghazi. We are seeing other things held up. But in talking about Benghazi, I agree with Susan, that it will more likely than not help Secretary Clinton. She is going to be able to showcase her strength and her equanimity. But remember she is coming into this limping. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. DEFRANCESCO: Because of the email scandal that was brought up through Benghazi. People are beginning to get disenchanted with Clinton more and more. She may be able to make up for lost ground and showing her strength with the Benghazi committee. But I think irreparable damage has been done because of the e-mails that were brought forward. SMIKLE: Actually I would disagree with that. I think she is coming off a tremendous month. That I think Bernie Sanders helped a lot to get everybody on the same page and say these e-mails don`t matter. There is no smoking gun with respect to these e-mails. (CROSSTALK) DEFRANCESCO: But the truth -- is it damaged the trust. SMIKLE: And on top of that, if you look at even the poll numbers, she has gone up in New Hampshire relative to Bernie Sanders. She seemed the most conversant on a wide range of policy issues and she had an opportunity to actually come across that way given the fact that she has previously only had to talk about her e-mails. (CROSSTALK) HARRIS-PERRY: There are two separate questions here. Obviously she is in a primary right now. But I have got to say that Hillary Clinton winning the democratic primary for 2016 has got to be the least surprising thing to happen -- like. So, she win, right? That was just not be that surprising. Her losing would be much more shocking. But then the question is whether or not all this maintains a kind of drip drip that again has that effect for general. DEL PERCIO: Yes. Of course because you are going to see is, Hillary Clinton, let`s just give her the benefit of the doubt that she does well at the hearing. She is going to have October be 30 great days for her. And then guess what is going to happen? Thirty first, 4,000 more e-mails are going to come out. And that`s going to reset her backwards. And not only that, when you talk about what comes out of the hearings, what I`m curious about is, we`ve seen that there is issues about security. We know the ambassador asked for more security we know that`s the focus of it. As a result of learning about her e-mail account and having these e-mail releases we have also known that she has had CIA agent was outed by said Blumenthal on her e-mail. So, they had to redact that. That was classified. The question is, are there any other security issues that potentially can come out of this hearing? I think that -- if that comes out going into the next bank of e-mails that`s going to be very damning for Hillary. HARRIS-PERRY: October has been a good month. But November, maybe not. But up next, there is one person undoubtedly watching it, and one person we are all watching, the vice president. The latest signs of whether or not there is going to be a decision from Vice President Joe Biden, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Will he or won`t he? The speculation continues as Vice President Joe Biden appeared last night right here in New York, just down the street to accept a human rights award from the Greek Orthodox Church. Biden spoke about his Catholic faith, about his late son Beau, but did not mention anything about a possible run for the presidency. But his audience did, chanting run, Joe, run, as he left the stage. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (CHEERS AND APPLAUSE) (Crowd chanting): Run, Joe, run! (END VIDEO CLIP) HARRIS-PERRY: The Vice President is by all accounts still weighing his options. Maybe lacing up those shoes for the run. On Friday he spoke with the leader of the International Association of Firefighters. A source tells NBC News that Biden told the union president he is seriously considering a run and was trying to gauge whether he would have the union`s support. I want to bring in now NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Kelly O`Donnell outside the Vice President`s residence in Wilmington, Delaware. So, what do you know? KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC NEWS CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Melissa. This is sort of informally Biden watch here where we are quite literally at the kind of the doorstep of his personal residence here in Wilmington. A quiet Sunday morning, I can report for you. We have not seen Vice President Biden today. We don`t have anything that we`ve been told to look for in terms of any public events. We`re here because everyone is wondering, will he or won`t he? And so we`re trying to gauge if the Vice President will give any clues or will there be visitors here who might suggest one way or another what his thinking is. But all quiet right now. As you pointed out, the conversations that he has been having suggest that there is a seriousness to the way he is looking at this. We don`t know timing. But timing does matter because there will be deadlines for filing to be a candidate in certain states. There was discussion of whether it would have been good for him or not to be in the debate that has already happened. So there is a sense of pressure building. This weekend, it has been in many ways a typical one for the Vice President. He spent part of Saturday attending sporting activities for his grandchildren here in Wilmington. You pointed out he went to an event in New York City last night. And those who are watching his public statements at those kinds of events are looking for evidence of might he run? He sometimes weaves some of the themes into his public remarks that might be things that would be something you would hear from Joe Biden as a candidate. But you really have to be looking hard for that. So at this point, he is one of the most captivating figures in the race because we don`t know if he will get in. But we are here standing by, ready to go. And if the Vice President wants to come out and get the morning paper, we`ll be here ready to greet him. HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right. Just scream, are you going to run, Joe? Are you going to run? Thank you. O`DONNELL: Exactly. HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you to NBC`s Kelly O`Donnell in Wilmington, Delaware. So look, I mean there is a point at which we are like staking out the Vice President`s House that we are going to have to stop doing that. He is going to have to tell us or not, right? SMIKLE: He will. And you know, we`ve had our theories on when that would actually happen. I`ve always thought he could go late into the fall if he really wanted to. And there clearly seems to be some interest. Look, he would be a great candidate if he runs. I`m a sure of that. But the question is again given where all the candidates are right now. Given the pieces of the electorate that they have staked out where does he fit into that? I`m just not sure. HARRIS-PERRY: Let me ask a more political human and less like strategic question. Because nobody can tell you if you are going to win the presidency, right? Or even the nomination. But isn`t it just that this man has wanted for much of his adult life to be president. SMIKLE: Yep. HARRIS-PERRY: He only has -- is even in this possibility because of the unique circumstance of being part of Obama `08. How does he not like, just on the pure -- DEL PERCIO: And just to go to that -- emotion when you are dealing with candidates -- here`s the thing. Let`s not forget, the Biden movement started because everyone thought that Hillary Clinton was going to tank against Bernie Sanders. And they didn`t want a socialist being the top of the ticket. So everyone -- HARRIS-PERRY: That`s a fair concern. DEL PERCIO: Right. It is a fair concern. HARRIS-PERRY: Strategically. DEL PERCIO: But this is where it started from. So, what happened? Everyone started to ask Biden to run. Is he interested? He would be great. We can`t have Bernie Sanders. Hillary Clinton is going to fail miserably. So, he started to feel the love. And it really was a moment of, they love me, they really love me. So he started -- you know, the fact that they wanted him more than he was seeking it is a very attractive proposition for anyone who ever wanted to be president. HARRIS-PERRY: Sure. DEL PERCIO: And now he`s here and as of today Hillary Clinton has had a good debate performance. She has some good polls out. So, right now you say oh, wow, they are not clamoring for me. What`s going on? He is going to have to wait just a little bit longer. My guess is somewhere between after the e-mails come out on October 31st, after Election Day. And before the next debate on the 14th. So, it gives you about a ten-day window right now. SIDDIQUI: And I`ll also think that one of the things you have to look at though when it comes to this momentum around drafting Biden is with the American public. People are popular until they officially become the candidate. HARRIS-PERRY: Sure. SIDDIQUI: When Hillary Clinton absolute numbers, her favorability when she had left the office of secretary of state were sky high. Obviously with the relentless media scrutiny over her. It wasn`t just when she`s officially jumped in the race as candidate, you have seen those numbers change. And that`s pretty typical on both sides of the aisle regardless of who you`re looking at. So, if you were Joe Biden, the question becomes, what are you bringing to the table? Is it just authenticity? Because as far as his substantive, as his policy positions go, there is not a great deal of distance between him and Hillary Clinton except for that she`s now attached herself to the Left on a couple of issues. HARRIS-PERRY: But quite honestly, there wasn`t a huge amount of difference between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama in 2008. There were a few, I mean, it`s a primary -- (CROSSTALK) HARRIS-PERRY: No, no, no, wait, wait. But I`m now saying, just on the question of -- so again, it still tells like two different things. One is a strategy of whether or not there is lane for him to win through. The other is -- because I mean you are saying, okay, people will stop loving him as soon as he runs. Of course. But they will stop having any thoughts about the Vice President if he chooses not to. Like if he steps outside and says to Kelly or, you know, watch, I`m not running, everyone packs up and goes home. Then it really is over. There is some possibility for a continued love-hate if he runs. SMIKLE: And I think -- I`m sorry. And I think that if you look at the debate, the democratic debate, a lot of her tone and her style and her delivery and the fact that people just sort of -- a lot of folks that were looking at how she was going to perform loved her performance, a lot of that was directed to a Joe Biden. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. SMIKLE: Look, if you want to come in, this is what to expect. HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Right. Right. What you are going to get, Joe? SMIKLE: And I think going back to 2008 when both were in the race in a primary, a lot of it had to do with questions about authenticity and style. It was change versus experience. HARRIS-PERRY: Uh-hm. SMIKLE: But you can see here not just with this group of Democrats but also relative to the Republicans that experienced this. HARRIS-PERRY: But she also tipped her hand this week with the Castro endorsement and then the language about Castro might be my VP. And you know, that would be fascinating for tons of reasons but also it makes you wonder if VP Biden is going to get in. If needs to tip his hand about what the whole ticket will look like. Especially if there would be a powerful interesting woman on the ticket with him it might change some of that feelings about like, an old guy jumping in front of -- in front of Clinton again. DEFRANCESCO: Absolutely. Because I think that is one of the negatives that Biden has. He is older. You know, the Democrat Party needs to appeal to a more diverse constituency. And another negative for Biden is his closeness to the Obama administration. HARRIS-PERRY: Oh, I don`t think it`s a negative. I think -- (CROSSTALK) DEFRANCESCO: Getting into the general election, you have your independence, you have your fence sitters, and you`ll say, I want something a little bit different. HARRIS-PERRY: No. No. I think -- so, we`ve got to dig into the pool now Victoria, because I actually think that`s his main strength. I actually think Hillary has not repaired some of what she would need to repair for the enthusiasm gap to close in order to get that Obama coalition after her. And then actually Biden can run as Obama`s coalition. DEFRANCESCO: I think she has a problem with the Obama coalition but not with those independents in the general election. HARRIS-PERRY: Still the come this morning, more and more, we`re getting into it now. Until Biden win, I don`t know. Still to come this morning, Tracy Morgan returns to "SNL." Stay with us. Wow! All the politics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) HARRIS-PERRY: Now, a quick look at stories making headlines this morning. In Florida, a police are searching for a shooter. After a deadly shooting at a ZombieCon event. It happened last night, late last night in Fort Myers when an unidentified shooter opened fire in an annual Zombie Themed Street Festival. In this witness video, you can see crowds running from the gunfire and one person was killed and four others were hurt. Those injured were taken to the hospital and (INAUDIBLE). In the Philippines, a powerful typhoon slammed onto shore this morning with winds more than 100 miles per hour. The storm down heavy rain, toppled trees and knocked out power. Officials say, thousands of villagers have evacuated the typhoon`s path especially in towns prone to flashfloods and landslides. Video posted to Facebook shows a capsized boat off the Philippines, a passing boat tries to rescue survivors trapped on the overturned hole. The man who posted the video says, his crew were able to rescue some of passengers to help to get them to a hospital. And back to the Unites States, the Governor of Hawaii have declared a State of Emergency to deal with the state`s homelessness crises. The declaration will allow the state to speed up the process of building a homeless shelter for families. And also provides $1.3 million to expand services to homeless individuals and families. Some of the programs like housing first helps people who struggle with mental illness and substance abuse who may not need the traditional requirement of a lot of shelter programs. And in the last year, Hawaii saw a 23 percent increase in its unsheltered homeless population in the 46 percent increase in the number of unsheltered families. With more than seven thousand people about a home in Hawaii, a state that has the highest rate of homelessness per capita. Up next, the Republican candidate who`s falling in the polls stumbling when he speaks and showing signs of money trouble but he`s still being treated like a frontrunner. THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END <Copy: Content and programming copyright 2015 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2015 Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>