The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 07/08/15

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: For hours, if you look at Donald Trump`s own website on Trump web, it works the same way. Show your support for Donald "laziness is a trait in blacks" Trump. Now, there is a way to undo this app if you get tired of seeing it, but honestly, the internet is more useful if you keep this thing installed. God bless fusion and the Trump web. It is the best new thing in the world today. That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening, Lawrence. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Rachel, thank you. MADDOW: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Breaking news tonight, the chairman of the Republican Party called Donald Trump to ask him to tone it down. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People like what I say, they agree with what I say. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Republicans fear Trump`s comments will be a drag on the entire party. TRUMP: I have great relationship with the Mexican people. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And will cost them crucial Latino voters. TRUMP: And I`ll tell you something, if I get the nomination, I`ll win the Latino vote. If you listen to Hillary, she is so weak on immigration, we will have a crime wave like we`ve never seen before -- JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`ve already stated my views about Donald Trump. I don`t -- I -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re done? BUSH: I`m done. TRUMP: Jeb Bush will never take us to the promised land. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t find a campaign that wants to have their candidate be on stage with Trump. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one can get any air time because everyone is following Donald Trump saying crazier and crazier things. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that he is not really talking about reality is very annoying. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything with him is the most, the least -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes -- UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best, the worst. TRUMP: I`m concerned about the country, our country is going to hell. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chairman Steele, I wonder if you think anybody can control the Donald. MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER MARYLAND GOVERNOR & FORMER CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Oh, hell, no, that ain`t going to happen. (LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: We have breaking news tonight. "The Washington Post" is reporting that the chairman of the Republican Party Reince Priebus called Donald Trump today to tell him to tone it down on the topic of immigration. The telephone call reportedly lasted for an hour. Joining us now by phone is "Washington Post" Karen Tumulty who co-wrote tonight`s breaking news report. Karen, what else do we know about this phone call today? KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WASHINGTON POST (via telephone): Well, it comes at a moment when a lot of Republican leaders across the country are beginning to worry that Donald Trump has moved out of the category of being sort of an embarrassment and a novelty candidate into the realm where essentially the whole party is going to have to own his comments. O`DONNELL: And Reince Priebus is in a situation where he has to in effect, I guess, calm the investors in the Republican Party who will be investing in some individual candidates, who they imagine can be banged around by Donald Trump on the debate stage. TUMULTY: That`s right. I mean, we are now less than a month away from this first debate. The party had really hoped that what they were going to be presenting was a field of candidates that was experienced and sober. And, you know, had some gravitas, somewhat attractive, you know, some attraction to voters at large. And what they are really worried about is, again, you know, kind of the effect of having Donald Trump up there among them. O`DONNELL: To judge by Katy Tur`s interview with Donald Trump today and every other interview I have seen, if Reince Priebus was on the phone with Donald Trump for an hour, Reince got in about three minutes worth of -- (LAUGHTER) Worth of human speech. TUMULTY: Yes, and you know, I`m sitting here trying to -- myself, piece together the timeline, and I -- it`s, yes, we think this call happened sort of mid to late afternoon which would have been after when most of these interviews that he did today were taped. But you know, one of the things that most worries the Republicans we talked to is the fact that every time he gets an opportunity, Donald Trump, you know, not only doesn`t try to tamp this down, but he actually, you know, throws a few more briquettes on the fire. O`DONNELL: Is there anyone in Republican politics in Washington who actually thinks that Reince Priebus is a match for Donald Trump on the telephone in a situation like this? TUMULTY: You know, I talked to a number of Republican officials today who said that the problem is that this guy really seeks and draws sustenance from attention and from controversy. And that, you know, a number of people I talked to, said the best thing we could do is just essentially ignore him and assume he is going to go away because he`s not going to be our nominee and this would just sort of prove to be sort of a bad dream. But -- so there is danger in sort of, you know provoking him. O`DONNELL: Karen Tumulty, thanks for joining us for this breaking news report tonight, thank you. TUMULTY: Thank you, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Donald Trump may be a candidate for president, but he is not running for president. He is sitting for president in Trump tower and letting the campaign come to him. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KATY TUR, NBC NEWS: You are one of the only candidates who didn`t campaign during the 4th of July. Pretty much all of them were up in New Hampshire and you were not there. You`ve had no campaign events really this week, no campaign events planned for next week that we know of so far. You`re not campaigning that much. How can anybody take you seriously if you`re not out there showing your face? TRUMP: Because I`m doing television review and I am up there actually a lot, and I watched them up there walking the streets and it didn`t mean anything. And I was actually getting more news coverage than anybody else by far because I`m the one that brought up the whole situation of the whole mess with immigration and what the Mexican government is doing to us. So, you know, I didn`t have to be and I would have been if they wanted me to. And I just decided that probably it wasn`t necessary. I`m going up actually next week and I`ll be in Iowa many times over the next number of months and New Hampshire many times. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, "Nbc`s" Katy Tur who interviewed Donald Trump today, also with us, Steve Kornacki, host of "UP WITH STEVE KORNACKI" on Msnbc. E. J. Dionne, "Washington Post" columnist and an Msnbc analyst, and Kasie Hunt, Msnbc national political correspondent. Katy, first of all, what`s the deal with the, we do this in Trump tower in the lobby with everybody walking by. That`s his -- TUR: That`s his home base -- O`DONNELL: Decision about where he does these interviews -- TUR: It`s -- O`DONNELL: Right? -- TUR: His home base, it`s where he feels comfortable. And it is interesting that he wasn`t on, on the campaign trail, but Rachel made a really good point last hour, that he doesn`t really need to be. I mean, he is getting more attention than anybody else and he hasn`t had to go out there and shake hands and be in a parade. He was originally planned to be in New Hampshire for the 4th of July, they cancelled it. And still, he has more coverage than anybody else who is getting the attention that he so desperately wants, and he`s making all of his opinions known. He is having people listen to him and react. O`DONNELL: You know, Steve, I laughed through most of every Donald Trump interview, most of every Donald Trump statement out, because they are really funny. But I got to say just hearing Katy outline his campaign schedule there in that -- STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST: Yes -- O`DONNELL: Question to him was so funny to me. And I think it`s one of the many proofs that Donald knows this is a joke. He is not running for president, he is not going to be on a ticket, he knows that. KORNACKI: Well, maybe, but on another level, at what point does it end? I mean, you could say look, we`re months away from the first primary and the first caucus. And it`s just -- such is like white hot situation right now, it`s hard to imagine something like this enduring for next six months and not -- and not collapsing at some point. On the other hand though, he is moving up in the polls as all this happens. You see him here tonight, there is this new state poll from North Carolina -- I know North Carolina. Critical primary state, but this is a barometer of where Republican opinion is, and he is moving into first place right there. And I think, the problem that the Republican Party has right now is, the issue that he`s chosen to focus on in this very inflammatory way is immigration. And if the Republican Party wants to co-optimize, they want to try to make it -- so there`s not this opening in their field for somebody like Donald Trump. They need to say, OK, look, we`re not going to give you this tone, we`re not going to give you this message, but we`re still going to give you this issue, Republican base voters. And the problem is, the other thing that Donald Trump is tapping into here besides concern about immigration as the issue, he is tapping into it and you hear in this interview, he is tapping into the sense of the Republican Party is filled with a bunch of sellouts. And so if it`s Jeb Bush or if it`s Chris Christie or if it`s any of these other candidates getting up there on stage with Trump and saying, well, listen, I have -- I kind of agree with him on immigration but I wouldn`t go this far. They are playing into his hand because they sound like sellouts. He is taking this maximalist position and I don`t know how you can deny him that. TUR: I think he does think that he is going to be in it for the long haul. I think he has no plans of backing out any time soon. When we pressed him on the financial -- O`DONNELL: Oh, yes, he can -- he can stay in this for -- you know, because he -- by the way, he is the cheapest candidate in the race. OK, he`s not spending a nickel on this thing. That`s part of -- his travel budget is now close to zero. I want to go to something you asked him about, which goes back four years ago and thank you for asking him about this. It goes to his credibility, it goes to what a public liar he is, and this is the -- your question to him about being a leader of the birther movement. Let`s listen to that. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TUR: A few years ago, you led the birther movement. You said investigators are off to Hawaii to find out whether or not Obama -- which you said was not born here. TRUMP: Well, I -- TUR: And it turned out -- TRUMP: Don`t know the whole idea -- TUR: To not be true -- (CROSSTALK) TRUMP: Well, I don`t know, if you -- according to you, it`s not true. I don`t know, you know -- TUR: He released his birth certificate. TRUMP: And you know, if you believe that, that`s fine. I don`t care, it`s an old subject. I`m about jobs, I`m about security, I`m about fixing the military, I`m about taking care of our vets. I`m about things that you don`t have to bring up old subjects, whether he did or not, who knows? A lot of people don`t agree with you on that, by the way. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, lying, public lying is normally a problem for political candidates. His big lie of the many lies in there, one of the provable lies are the investigators who went to Hawaii. That was a lie, they didn`t exist, they never went to Hawaii. He cannot prove in any way that he sent anyone to Hawaii, he never did. He was faking that whole thing, and it is to me, classic Trump and it is to me what this whole campaign is. The whole campaign is a fake. It`s a campaign to maintain fame, that part of it is working, he`s never going to be on any ticket. EUGENE JOSEPH DIONNE, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I agree he`s never going to be on any ticket, but I think that he seems immune from all the other things that trip a candidate up. I mean, look at what he said about Hillary Clinton, he said he liked her, he thought she would be a strong candidate, that was back in 2012. Now he says, she is the worst Secretary of State in history. Normally, complete contradictions like that would trip you up, but Trump is a 100 percent certain of whatever he says even when he is a 100 percent opposite of where he was. But I think the other problem Republicans have, is they`re still reluctant to take him on and really distance themselves. I was really struck in the post story that Karen Tumulty and my colleagues did, that down in the story, a Republican National Committee spokesman is - - says that Priebus had a very respectful conversation with Trump. So, it was a very respectful conversation about not saying utterly outrageous things about Mexican-Americans. And if they`re going to stay very respectful of him, they`re not going to distance themselves from him the way the party needs to. O`DONNELL: And Kasie Hunt, among the many reasons for Reince Priebus to make his completely futile call to Donald Trump -- KORNACKI: Yes -- (LAUGHTER) O`DONNELL: Is the point that George Will has made, which is Donald Trump is acting as if he is a Democratic plant in the Republican campaign. Let`s listen to the way -- the way Katy asked Trump about that today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TUR: George Will said you could be a Democratic operative. TRUMP: George Will is another one. He was at Mar-A-Lago years ago, he spoke, I didn`t want to listen to him speak and he`s never forgiven me for the fact that I didn`t show up, because I find him to be a very boring guy. So why do I want to listen to George Will for? I listen to the people. I get the biggest crowds, I get the biggest standing ovations and I guess you see it in the poll numbers, and I don`t even care about it. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Kasie, I noticed he didn`t deny being a Democratic operative. (LAUGHTER) KASIE HUNT, MSNBC POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He did not deny it, Lawrence -- DIONNE: Wait for a moment -- HUNT: Look, I think he doesn`t get the biggest crowds by any stretch, I know that`s the point of contention that we`ve had in the past. But what he does touch on and I think that you touch on it a minute ago with this idea that people aren`t necessarily willing to go after him. I mean, the Republican Party in many ways in the past has embraced him. I mean all of the candidates in 2012 competed for his endorsement. There was a lot of suspense around, whether he was going to go for Mitt Romney or Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney run robocalls featuring Donald Trump. I mean, he does happen to this thing of populist anger that`s out there in the country and he is willing to sort of say whatever he wants to do. And I also think one of the things that for Republicans that should be concerning, if this is not something that they want to be part of their process is, the more this affects his business ventures if -- you know, he had a reason to get out of the race before January when his season of the "Apprentice" was supposed to start back up again. Because, you know, he could have potentially walked back into that. The more that he loses out on all of these other business ventures, the more skin he is going to have in this presidential game. And the other thing I will say, Lawrence, I was just talking to someone who is close to Trump. I think you`re going to start to see them actually try and show a little bit of a real campaign muscle. They`ve made a number of significant hires in New Hampshire. For example, they`ve hired some long-time people who actually have a good sense of how to run a campaign up there. They`ve done a rollout, what they say is going to be a 99 county strategy in Iowa, they`ve hired a long-time operative there who`s previously worked with Rick Santorum, so we`ll see how much follow-through there is. But I get the sense that he`s actually going to put some skin in this game. O`DONNELL: Well, let`s remember, everybody they are hiring, they were all available after Bush and all the real candidates did their hiring, too. So, that`s how great they are. HUNT: Well -- O`DONNELL: And I do -- HUNT: And they also maybe were happy to have a paycheck -- O`DONNELL: That`s right -- HUNT: As well -- O`DONNELL: And I see you do his paycheck -- (CROSSTALK) DIONNE: Paycheck. O`DONNELL: So, now, Katy, it was a great question today about, you know, Trump`s harping on our jobs going to China. Of course, all the Trump clothing jobs have gone to China. You asked him about that, let`s listen to that. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obvious -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TUR: Why wouldn`t you keep your manufacturing here? Your ties, your suits. Why would you not have them made -- TRUMP: Because -- TUR: Here? -- TRUMP: China so manipulates their currency that it`s very hard to find companies that can do business in the United States. I will not -- TUR: You`re a -- TRUMP: Excuse me -- TUR: Billionaire though -- TRUMP: Excuse me -- TUR: Why would you not move it here to prove -- TRUMP: Excuse me -- TUR: For having it in America? -- TRUMP: Because I`m a businessman. Let me just tell you something and it`s very interesting. You`re not bringing up anything new. You know, you`re acting like you`re the great reporter. You`re not bringing -- I -- every speech I make, I talk about I always hate that I have to have my ties made in China. And you know why they`re made in China? Because China manipulates their currency to such a degree, they just manipulated it again two weeks ago. I never thought I`d see it so fast again and again. They`re taking our jobs, they`re taking our manufacturing, they`re destroying us and rather we`re rebuilding China, and then you know what they do? They loan us back the money. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: So, OK, tough businessman Donald Trump is making his ties in China because China forces him to. TUR: You know, it`s interesting, you wonder that if he becomes president, is he going to be the -- (CROSSTALK) O`DONNELL: No, you don`t wonder that -- TUR: But you know, everybody is thinking -- O`DONNELL: No -- TUR: Of him as a businessman-president who -- because it`s better business, outsources to China or will he take a hit in his finances and have them be made in America if he`s so -- O`DONNELL: He is -- TUR: Adamant about -- O`DONNELL: When he`s -- TUR: Having -- O`DONNELL: President -- TUR: In here -- O`DONNELL: He`s going to tell all those bad businessmen like Donald Trump, you can`t get your ties made in China anymore. That`s the Trump position apparently. All right, we`re going to have to take a break, when we come back, Donald Trump evaluates Hillary Clinton`s work as Secretary of State. We`ve had 68 Secretaries of State in American history, guess where Donald ranks Hillary. And later, we`ll have an exclusive interview with New York State`s Attorney General who as of today is the only Attorney General in America officially empowered to investigate all killings by police in his state. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has contributed money to Hillary Clinton`s campaigns, he has said in the past that she was qualified to be president. But guess where he ranks her now as Secretary of State in the history of American Secretaries of State, that`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Hillary Clinton was the worst Secretary of State in the history of the United States. Hillary was the worst in the history of the United States. There has never been a Secretary of State so bad as Hillary. The world blew up around us. We lost everything including all relationships. There wasn`t one good thing that came out of that administration, or her being Secretary of State. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: E. J. Dionne, Donald Trump has evaluated the 68 Secretaries of State in our history and found for us the worst ever. DIONNE: Right, which is remarkable as you pointed out. He was a contributor to Hillary, he praised her just a few years ago. You know, the Republicans were reluctant to go after him for saying awful things about Mexican-Americans, but they`re going to hit him hard for flip- flopping on Hillary Clinton and probably not being tough enough. She was the worst cabinet member in the history of the United States. It`s just remarkable and I think this is where the air by the way is going to come out of the balloon. He has so many ties to Democrats in the past -- New York is a Democratic state, he had to do a lot of business with Democrats, and now all of a sudden he is this right-wing hero. And I think if the Republicans ever have to go after him, if he ever gets more serious, that`s what they`re going to hit him on. O`DONNELL: Kasie Hunt, I can imagine him telling Reince Priebus in that phone call today, didn`t you hear what I said about Hillary today, isn`t that great? (LAUGHTER) HUNT: Distinctly possible, Lawrence. I mean, the other thing, you know, Donald Trump invited Hillary and Bill Clinton to one of his weddings. There`s -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- HUNT: A great old photograph of the four of them all together. But yes, you know, I think in some ways Reince Priebus calling Donald Trump just encourages him frankly. I mean he really likes being part of this overall conversation. I remember talking to him the day after he announced -- or the day, excuse me, that he announced he was running and he was on the phone with Governor Rick Scott of Florida talking about, you know, who`s called him to congratulate him. I mean, this is the kind of thing that really makes this -- adds energy to it rather than taking it away. So, whether ultimately it was the best idea on the part of the RNC, I guess we`re going to have to wait and see. O`DONNELL: All right, let`s listen to how Trump linked Hillary to the situation at the border with illegal immigration as described by Trump and the Trump vision then of what a Hillary presidency would be like. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Hillary would let everybody come in, killers, criminals, drug dealers, everybody. If you listen to Hillary, everybody is going to be flocking to the nation. They are sort of now any way. But if you listen to Hillary, she is so weak on immigration, we will have a crime wave like you`ve never seen. (END VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We will have a crime wave like you`ve never seen. So, this takes us a few notches beyond the Willie Horton(ph) kind of campaigning Republicans have done in the past. TUR: You know, Chuck(ph) talked of this earlier today. He is the most everything, the worst -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- TUR: Everything -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- TUR: The best everything, there`s no gray area for him -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- TUR: And I think he loves being the center of attention and the way he gets to be the center of attention is by making these very wild statements and being very black and white about it. O`DONNELL: But Steve Kornacki, there are people who are going to hear that and it`s going to have an impact on the way they think about this? KORNACKI: Yes, I think for right now, but I think E.J. is just starting to hear this. If you want to play this out, the problem Trump is going to have -- and like I said, just at the top. We`re in July right now, we`re talking about primaries starting basically in February. So, that`s a lot of time. And I kind of read the Reince Priebus things tonight as a warning shot. I`m not sure this is going to mean anything to Donald Trump right now. But I think the parallel thing up here is Newt Gingrich. Think of Newt Gingrich four years ago, when there was that moment, Newt Gingrinch, because of this white hot moment in a debate, when he was asked about an open marriage, and he turns the question around against John King, the moderator. And he takes that moment of passion and he goes from 10 percent to 40 percent in the polls in South Carolina, he wins the primary, he leaves Romney in the dust and Republicans are forced to wake up. In that moment confront the possibility, if they don`t stop this Newt Gingrich becoming their nominee -- and they say, if Newt Gingrich is our nominee, it`s disaster for our party. That`s the consensus of the party elites. They weren`t that excited about Romney to that point, but they definitely didn`t want Gingrich in. What you saw in that two-week campaign in Florida in 2012 was the entire party establishment dumping on Newt Gingrich. Every bit of -- remember the Romney campaign ad, they took Gingrich down in Florida, what was it? They took 30 seconds, the lead of the "Nbc Nightly News" from January of 1997 when Gingrich got hit with a record ethics fine. They run just the 30 seconds of Tom Brokaw giving the news. Take -- do you want to nominate this man? The cover of the drugs report, a sort of an Oregon for conservative -- O`DONNELL: Yes -- KORNACKI: Opinion, it was all anti-Newt stuff. So, that -- look at the material they have against Trump, if it comes to it. This is a guy who said he was for single pair of healthcare at once, he called himself totally pro choice. He talked about the Hillary connections, there is a lot of ammunition here. They`re not going to use it right now, but if we get closer to the fall, closer to these primaries and they`re still worried, there`s a lot they can dump on him. O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, I think if they want to use it, they should use it earlier to get rid of him faster. I by the way, don`t think he`s ever going to get into the -- up in the polls the way Newt Gingrich did. I don`t think he -- this thing is going to go that far. But the trouble with him is, he does get the microphone, he will be heard. And so, if you want to stop him from being listened to when he makes these noises, you might want to start doing those ads earlier. DIONNE: No, I agree with that. I agree with what Steve said about how they`re going to go after him. But if he ever gets to the point where Newt Gingrich was after South Carolina, it`s way too late for the Republican Party. Because that will mean that the party has really been trumpified(ph). That his voice will be so important in defining the party that all their fears about losing Latino voters, plus a lot of other rational people in the country will be realized. And so yes, I think that they`re going to have to stop him earlier. What you might start seeing are critical pieces in conservative opinion magazines, saying wait a minute, he is not really a conservative, he`s not really one of us. But I think they`ve got to push him aside earlier or he`s going to make a much bigger mess for them. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what he said to Katy today about Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton tying them together. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Hillary will never take us to the promised land. Hillary will be a disaster as a president. Jeb will be very poor as a president. No energy. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: And Kasie Hunt, I can imagine that would be one of Reince Priebus` talking points on the phone today to Donald is, why don`t you just -- when you`re talking about Hillary, why don`t you just leave Jeb out of this. Stop saying Jeb will be a terrible president because he`s probably going to be our nominee. HUNT: In many ways Jeb Bush is the person who has the most to lose from this Trumpmania that we`re experiencing. Because Trump is lighting up the very parts of the Republican Party that everyone has been concerned. And the establishment has been concerned, won`t ultimately get excited about Jeb Bush. These are the -- that`s the sort of reactionary kind of the red meat conservative base. You know, whether or not -- there`s always been this big question about whether or not Jeb Bush is going to be able to appeal to those people. And so to have somebody out there every day beating the drum against him, and that`s what Trump has done in almost every one of these interviews. It`s just something that at the very least poses a challenge, and imagine if they`re standing up on that debate stage next to each other. And I think that`s the next question for Reince Priebus and the Republican Party. They almost intentionally stayed away from deciding who was going to be on this debate stage. They left it up to the TV networks and that might be coming back to bite them pretty hard here. O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne -- DIONNE: And that`s why Jeb -- O`DONNELL: Go ahead, E.J. -- DIONNE: Should -- yes, that`s why Jeb should be the guy who uses Trump on his own behalf. That I think he has a lot to gain here. He`s never going to get the voters who say right now that they are for Donald Trump. But he can win support from the parts of the party that say we want to stop this, we want a reasonable nominee. And I think he`s been surprisingly reticent in taking Trump on. And I think he is going to have to be more aggressive, partly because he is going to have to look tough against Trump, as Trump says these awful things about him. KORNACKI: Can I -- can I just -- O`DONNELL: Let me -- let me just -- we`re going to have to break it there, E.J. gets the last word on this segment. E.J., thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it -- DIONNE: Good to be with you -- O`DONNELL: Well, Donald Trump is pushing the Republican Party in a direction they don`t want to go. And finally, one Republican presidential candidate has found his voice in opposition to Trumpism(ph), that`s next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I will make that wall impenetrable, OK, impenetrable. You`re not to worry about how high it will be and Mexico will pay for that wall. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL. Finally, a Republican candidate for president has found his voice in arguing against Trumpism. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My party is in a hole with the Hispanics. The first rule of politics when you`re in a hole is stop digging. Some of these take a shovel out of Donald Trump`s hands when it comes to casting a shadow over all these people to put them in the group of being rapist and drug dealers. Not only is it wrong, you`re dealing -- you`re digging a bigger hole and I hope every Republican candidate would say the following. We disagree with Ronald -- Donald Trump in this regard, that most of the people here illegally are good hard working people and if we`re not willing to say that as a party, we`re going to lose in 2016. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Now, if you don`t believe everything Donald Trump says, you are not alone. Even Donald Trump doesn`t believe everything Donald Trump says especially when he says things like this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: And I`ll tell you something, if I get the nomination, I`ll win the Latino vote. I will win it because I`m going to create jobs. Hillary Clinton is not going to be able to create jobs I will tell you right now. Neither is Jeb Bush going to be able to create jobs. I will create jobs and the Latinos will have jobs that they don`t have right now and I will win that vote and everyone thinks, "Oh gee, Trump is not going to do well with that vote." I`ll do better with that vote than anybody. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Juan Cartagena, President and General Council of Latino Justice. So there, you know, there`s Donald pretending that he`s going to win any of those votes. But the voice of Lindsey Graham today is stepping out of the Republican crowd and finally making that statement. He is the first to do that with any kind of force and authority the way he did to that. JUAN CARTAGENA, PRESIDENT AND GENERAL COUNCIL OF LATINO JUSTICE: I think it`s about time. I think we`ve been hearing these incredible representations by Donald Trump and what he`s going to do, what he can do, how he feels about Mexico for the days now. It`s about time that this reaction and this notion that catering to the most extreme being the Republican Party is actually going to count the Latino vote is ludicrous and it`s going to be the opposite. Donald (inaudible) remember this and that we favor very well. O`DONNELL: And what about the issue that Republicans are worried about that this is Trumpism factor will in fact hurt the Republican candidate no matter who it is even if that candidate hasn`t been saying what Donald Trump`s been saying. CARTAGENA: This isn`t true to that of course but, you know, there`s a long time between now and what happens next year, you know, and people tend to figure out these things and things can really dive down to some extent. But I think the way he -- Mr. Trump has come out against so hard, against these notions about who is coming across the boarder and what they do when they get here, is fascinating. This incredible surge unity move in to let the community, and move in to nationality that compose, you know, TNT has not been seen that often, and this is a guy organizing for us and this will not be for Donald. Katy, there`s many great moments in the interview today. This is one of my favorites, when you asked Donald Trump when is the last time expert on the southern border, Donald Trump was actually at or near, anywhere the southern border. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TUR: When was the last time you were at the border? TRUMP: I`ve been to the border probably three or four times over the years, and I have many people that live around the area. I`m going to Arizona this weekend where they want to talk to me because Arizona is in some time, the most popular person in Arizona because of my stance. And I`m going to be there this weekend. TUR: But when was the last time that you were there? TRUMP: Probably three years ago. TUR: So how do you -- if you haven`t been there in three years, how do you that it is such a problem. TRUMP: Because I knew it may have been as worse now. It was terrible then and it`s worst now. It`s worst now than it`s ever been. We don`t even have a border. People were just flowing through like water. There is no border right now. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Katy, politics doesn`t use social science. It uses anecdote. It lives by anecdote. And so, these killing that we have in San Francisco were Juan Sanchez illegal immigrant who apparently have been sent back five times and convicted of felonies in the past. He killed Kate Steinle there. He was accused of felony, state Kate Steinle in San Francisco. That`s all Trump needs. He needs the one example. And in politics, in the world of anecdotal politics, the one example proves the case and that`s what he`s trying to do now. He mentioned that in your interview today. TUR: Yeah. He`s using that as a rallying point for his word. He`s using that as his prime example of what he`s talking about with immigrants. But the fact is, according to Pew research is that the more immigrants come in, the crime rates in this country go down. So his facts don`t line up with what he`s trying to prove. But it is -- and this is a terrible way of putting a good timing in some sense to have an example like this that he can rally around. Of course, it`s a tragedy and nobody would wish this upon anybody. But he is using it as something to galvanize the -- his base essentially, to say that these illegal immigrants are here and they`re dangerous, and they`re going to hurt people, and they should be sent out immediately. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what he -- let`s see -- actually this is Bush and I want to listen to Jeb Bush today in New Hampshire talking about this, and the different tonal qualities which I`m not sure are very helpful to Bush and he`s communal about. But there`s no red meat in anything he says for republican voters here. Let`s listen to what he says. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: Why not create a path to legal status where you have a provisional work permit. You pay a fine. You learn English. You work. You work. You don`t get federal government`s support. If you committed a crime, you`re deported. But if you don`t, you earn over an extended period of time, legal status. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Steve Kornacki, there`s someone trying to talk a form of sense to a party that`s getting carried away with Trumpism. KORNACKI: Right, and I think about how that plays that in the debate stage a month from that. O`DONNELL: Yeah. KORNACKI: This is a debate we`re having over immigration and that is the statement that Jeb Bush is making up on that stage, and Donald Trump is on that stage. And then Donald Trump is probably interrupting in the middle of that and saying "Jeb, Jeb" O`DONNELL: Right, right. KORNACKI: . all he was doing is tell us the same things we`ve been hearing for 30 years and guess what, it`s worst that ever. You are elusive. He`s -- that`s the pit and the problem is when you strip away all the rhetoric, when you strip away all the theatrics in Donald Trump, and you look at the actual policy issues, he is aware that the sort of the guts of the Republican Party is an emphasis on overwhelming border security first is bashing sanctuary cities and it`s basically shunning any politicians who says they support any kind of pathway to legalization, pathway to citizenship. And so, that puts down something a very commanding position on the issue. If you`re going to try to argue new ones with him, new ones is hard to win on. The one thing that I would say is I don`t know if Jed Bush is the guy who is equipped to do this. We talked about which of these Republican candidates on the stage might be willing to sort of go toe to toe with Trump. Somebody in Chris Christie`s over this told me, he is looking forward to being on that stage with Donald Trump and the whole Christie strategy, the whole Christie comeback strategy rests on having one of those debate moments. Like we were saying new Gingrich had back in 2012 where he`s poll number were tripled or quadrupled over night, and I think there is some thinking in Christie. Well that Chris Christies, with that personality, that blustery, in your face, sit down and shut up personality, that he could be the guy who gets into a spot with Donald Trump on the stage. And Trump starts calling him a loser and tell him to -- and Christie goes right back at him and get offs that line that quiets Donald Trump. I think there`s some thought he could do that. CARTAGENA: And get Trump (inaudible). KORNACKI: Yeah. But, yeah, there`s one out there who could, right? TUR: Doesn`t New Jersey, New York and two of. KORNACKI: Along with that, you know. O`DONNELL: Mike, let`s get a last work in here in from Kasie. Go ahead, please, quickly. HUNT: The only thing I would say Lawrence is that, when it comes to that debate stage, I would challenge you to nail down Donald Trump on any... O`DONNELL: Right. HUNT: ... policy -- concrete policy issue at all. And this immigration thing is really good example because he`s actually said, we`re going to have to wait and see whether or not I would support a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. And that`s puts him potentially in a more moderate place than Jeb Bush. O`DONNELL: Yeah, I mean one thing Kasie seem to be sure today, I think it`s how difficult it would be to debate Donald Trump because it`s like debating Jell-O, it`s like you can`t even... HUNT: You can`t take him down. O`DONNELL: . he`s all over the place. Juan Cartagena, Steve Kornacki, E. J. Dionne who joined before and Kasie Hunt and also Katy Tur, thank you all for joining us, I really appreciate it. Coming up, a historic move in New State today, the governor has empowered the Attorney General to investigate every killing by police in every police department in the state. New York`s Attorney General will join us for an exclusive interview. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s just sit over here and see what`s going on. Are we opening? OK, wait a minute. Panels up and, are we up? We`re up. We`re getting trades? It looks like we are up. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That was the confused scene at the New York Stock Exchange at 3:10 P.M. this afternoon, nearly four hours after trade was shutdown. Tonight the New York Exchange says that, "Conflict configuration issues were to blame for the disruption." That glitch was just one of three major technical issues wrecking havoc today at roughly the same time that the Stock Exchange shutdown. Visitors to The Wall Street Journal`s homepage were greeted with this error message. And if you plan to fly tomorrow or even Friday you may still feel the effect of this morning`s nearly two-hour grounding of all United Airlines flights. 59 united flights were canceled and more than 1,000 were delayed. The New York Stock Exchange, The Wall Street Journal, and United Airlines all insist that today`s very coincidental outages were all internal problems and not any kind of cyber attack. Up next, a historic move by the governor of New York can change the way killings by police are investigated. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: For weeks America watched the video of Eric Garner being arrested on Staten Island on suspicion of having committed the misdemeanor of selling cigarettes without a license. We learned that the chokehold that Officer Daniel Pantaleo used to subdue Eric Garner was a maneuver band by the rules of the NYPD. We learned from the autopsy report that when Eric Garner said, "I can`t breathe," he was in effect announcing what would be his cause of death. The autopsy report said the chokehold eventually killed him. And then, we learned that the grand jury run by the district attorney on Staten Island refuse to bring any charges against any of the police officers involved in that arrest in that video. And everyone across the political spectrum was shocked. One of the people who was upset was Governor Andrew Cuomo who said, "If there are improvements to be made and lessons to be learned, we at the state level are ready to act to better the system." And today, with Eric Garner`s mother sitting beside him, the Governor acted signing an executive order assigning a special prosecutor in district attorney general`s office to investigate all killings by police of unarmed people and the cases where there is a question about whether a person was armed. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GOV. ANDREW CUOMO, (D) NEW YORK: It`s a day of action. It`s a day of fairness. It`s a day of justice. It`s a day that I think should go a long way toward restoring people`s trust in our system of criminal justice and trust in our system of criminal justice and trust in government. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: New York`s attorney general Eric Schneiderman now has a duty that none of the 49 other attorneys general in the United States have, investigating the killings by all the police departments in his state. Attorney General Schneiderman will join us for an exclusive interview next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: New York`s attorney general will join me next to discuss his new power to investigate killings by police in New York State. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: The attorney general will be a standing prosecutor to handle any case where a law enforcement officer kills an unarmed civilian or kills a civilian and there is a question as to whether or not the civilian is armed and dangerous. This situation that we`re addressing is a crisis. It`s a crisis in this state and it is a crisis nationwide. It is a crisis of confidence in the criminal justice system. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now in exclusive interview with New York attorney general Eric Schneiderman. So did you need the governor`s authority or to do this kinds of investigations, could have taken this on your own? ERIC SCHNEIDERMAN, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: No. The governor has the authority under New York`s law and constitution to designate the attorney general special prosecutor to supersede district attorneys for any purpose. The order today was of unusual scope. I mean, really it was a ground breaking order empowering me to investigate and if necessary prosecute, any situation in which a civilian is killed by a contact with a law enforcement officer. Civilians unarmed or as noted, there`s a question to whether they are unarmed. So this encompasses all the counties of the state, all the district attorneys, all the other law enforcement officers and we`re setting up a special investigation and prosecution unit. But this is the first time if something like this has ever happened in New York. O`DONNELL: And there`s a history to this going back to the Garner case. But the governor actually tried to get the legislator to do this legislatively, they failed to do that and then he just took executive action, as we saw today. SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, so the governor and legislative leaders try to workout a bill that would provide a more comprehensive solution, because I think everybody recognizes on a lot of different parts of political spectrum. This is not just a liberal versus conservative thing. Even a lot of conservatives recognize their criminal justice system is not working, it`s not trusted. But the public has lost their confidence in a system that requires the public trust the function. You can`t have a functioning criminal justice system if the public won`t cooperate with the police, if they don`t believe in the process. If they don`t think the justice system is just. O`DONNELL: So, let`s walk through a theoretical case sort of frame it on an Eric Garner case. A case like that occurs in, you know, three months from now, OK. What would we see happened that is different? SCHNEIDERMAN: Well, as soon as the death is reported, my office would step in, my special investigation unit and would take over from the district attorney. O`DONNELL: Take over. You`re superseding you use that word. You`re taking it away from the district. SCHNEIDERMAN: Correct. O`DONNELL: OK. SCHNEIDERMAN: This is an order for that to require us to supersede the D.A. We would be in communication with the district attorney because they`re the first one on the scene and they would -- have to work with us to determine if this in fact is a case that comes within our jurisdiction. But we`ve moved in, we participated in the questioning of the witnesses if necessary to convene a grand jury. Our office would convene a grand jury. So, we would have a special unit that essentially serves as the prosecutor. For this narrow set of cases unfortunately it`s not that many cases... O`DONNELL: Right. SCHNEIDERMAN: . where an unarmed civilian is killed through a contact with a law enforcement officer and we hope we`re not going to have very many of them. We hope we have none of them. But we`re prepared to thoroughly and impartially investigate with the goal of restoring this confidence that you can see people all over the state and a travel state. They`ve just have lost the sense that there`s one set of rules for everyone, that the system just provides the justice that were promised us, sort of fundamental part of being in America. O`DONNELL: I think was the Eric Garner video here in New York that sort of broke down the wall on this because it use to be some people saw this as a problem, some people didn`t but it was hard to find people who weren`t stunned that the grand jury watch that video and found absolutely nothing to charge anyone with in that video. And so, what kind of manpower do you expect to devote to this in attorney general`s office? SCHNEIDERMAN: But we`ve already set up a unit with a group of very experience prosecutors. We have investigators. We -- the local law enforcement officers and the local district attorneys are supposed to cooperate with us. The governor has directed them to do so. But we`re confident that we have the experience prosecutors we need to take over and one of these cases. If we need more resources we`ll get more resources. It`s not something that really is that expensive in a context to the state budget. The most important thing is to get it right. And we have to be transparent about the process. We have to show impartiality, we have to show that there`s one standard for everyone. O`DONNELL: Does this change the composition of the police investigators who would respond to a scene. Well we now see state police officers responding to a scene in addition to the local police department. SCHNEIDERMAN: The local police departments are always the first on the scene. We`ve been working with them. But investigators from our office and perhaps from the state police could be participating. It`s really depends on the case-by-case basis. And larger police departments like the New York City Police Department. O`DONNELL: Yeah. SCHNEIDERMAN: They have the resources to handle this on their own. They have a special unit that does nothing but look in to these sorts of cases. And smaller jurisdictions they do need help from the outside. We`re prepared to put whatever resources we need in to serious responsibility. But we got to get the trust back in the criminal justice. O`DONNELL: How does it feel to be the only attorney general out of the 50 in the United States who has this power? SCHNEIDERMAN: I think it`s going to be state by state solution. But I think other states are going to take action as is goes for. This is a national problem. This lost of confidence is a national problem. And this is -- there`s nothing more fundamental to America than the notion of equal justice under law and that sense to the public that we have equal justice has to be restored. O`DONNELL: Attorney General Eric Schneiderman and get tonight`s last word. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you. O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next. END <Copy: Content and programming copyright 2015 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. 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