The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Transcript 11/18/15

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: The company says they have now -- on their service that ISIS has been using to communicate in the past. The company says they have now blocked 78 ISIS-related channels on telegram across 12 languages. They`ve done it, they`ve done it now. Because now it bothers them. No rush, you guys. That does it for us now, our coverage of the attacks in Paris continues now with Lawrence O`Donnell. LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: We begin tonight with a note to the American news media. Stop calling Abdelhamid Abaaoud a mastermind. You can call him the ringleader of the attacks in Paris, you can call him the organizer of the attacks, but stop glorifying this homicidal maniac who flunked out of high school. When you`re typing the word "mastermind" into the graphics that are going to appear on television screens all around the world including in the Islamic world, ask yourselves, what would this mass murderer like to be called? Organizer? Ringleader? Or mastermind? If he could type the word into your computer to describe himself on these TV screens, he would type mastermind. What would the Islamic State like him to be called? You are taking dictation from terrorists when you call him a mastermind. We have mass murderers in this country who kill more people than they killed at that Paris restaurants, and no one says a mastermind was involved. We know better than any country in the world how easy it is for crazed killers to open fire on unarmed people when they least expected in theaters, in churches, in schools. We know it doesn`t take a mastermind. It takes a sick mind. The mind of someone like this. There he is in his Pickup truck, happily dragging dead bodies behind it, bodies that have been mutilated. "The Washington Post" alone among American news organizations is reporting that he is dead. That he was killed in the dramatic raid by Paris police in the middle of the night last night that left two dead, possibly including Abdelhamid Abaaoud. French officials are awaiting the results of DNA tests before they make an official announcement about who was killed last night. It is not the first time that Abdelhamid Abaaoud was reported dead. Last year, his family in Belgium was told that he was killed fighting for the Islamic State in Syria. His family reacted to that news with joy. His sister Yasmina said, "We are praying that Abdelhamid really is dead." His father Omar told reporters then, "I can`t take it anymore, I`m on medication. I don`t ever want to see him again." Police made eight arrests at the end of that raid last night. The Paris prosecutor today said this -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There are eight people, seven men and one woman in custody. Now the identities of the people arrested in the building have not been formally established, but I must say that Abaaoud and Salah Abdeslam are not part of the people -- are not part of this people in custody. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now from Paris is NBC`s Keir Simmons. Keir, do we have any estimate on when we will have the DNA results that will tell us about the dead bodies. KEIR SIMMONS, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: We don`t know, and that may be in part because they don`t know here whether they do, indeed, have the body of Abaaoud or whether it is somebody else who was connected to these attacks. Remember that the authorities believe that he was in Syria with ISIS until just today when it emerged that they were looking for him in this cell of people connected to those attacks. And it was with great force that they attempted to take on that cell. They had 110 police officers. There were 5,000 rounds fired. The building was so intensely pulverized by the firefight that they now believe that part of it is uninhabitable. So, it may well take some time. They would want to be certain that it is him if they are going to announce that it`s him, because the question will be whether he was able to travel from Syria, perhaps using false identification, traveling through Greece. That will be something they will need to be completely confident about before they come out and make that announcement. But by the way, a number of mistakes, if you like, have been made by this group, despite the fact that they, in their eyes, have successfully carried out this attack in Paris. That car was discovered with so much weapons and ammunition in it. The fact that this cell was discovered even while it was planning another attack, the French prosecutor believes, is another error, if you like, on their part. Which will now allow the authorities here to go through that third floor apartment, to go through that car and get more evidence, evidence that may lead them to others involved. O`DONNELL: Keir Simmons in Paris, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We`re joined now from Brussels by NBC News foreign correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin. Ayman, what is -- Brussels authorities are also involved in the investigation of the identities of who was caught in that raid last night. AYMAN MOHYELDIN, NBC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that`s right, Lawrence. It does seem that all investigations so far continue to bring pieces of information back here to Belgium. In fact, one of the pieces of information that came out of this morning`s raid in Saint-Denis in France was confirmed by local Belgium media. And it`s important to emphasize the news broke kind of late, but local Belgium media are reporting that the woman who blew herself up during that French police raid earlier today was in fact, the cousin of Abdelhamid Abaaoud. The individual that they believe was an architect or the leader who designed this particular attack on Paris. Now, this also comes on the heels of another large manhunt, not just only for this individual who`s believed to be the ringleader, if you will, of the -- of the Paris attackers, but the manhunt also continues for Salah Abdeslam, believed to be one of those Paris attackers. All of this is coming out of Belgium right now. And that is -- that has led Belgium authorities to carry out substantial number of raids over the course of the past several days. In fact, there have been several individuals, at least seven according to Belgium security officials that have been detained. Five of those have been released. Two remain in custody as we understand it, as they still continue to piece together pieces of information. Now, in the city of Molenbeek; just on the outskirts of Brussels where these two individuals at one point were living and their families currently reside there. There was a candle light vigil this evening. The community came together to denounce the Paris attacks and they stand in solidarity with the French victims of those terrorist attacks. In fact, one of the brothers; the brother of Salah and Ibrahim, the two individuals, the two brothers who were involved in that Paris attacks actually participated in that candle light vigil. He was seen putting a candle from his balcony and there was a moment that the community here rallied behind. They understand they`re very much now in the spotlight, not only of the investigation, but a lot of questions as to how these two individuals and many others over the past year have played a role, substantial role in some of these terrorist attacks taking place in France, as well as raids that have taken place here in Belgium. Lawrence -- O`DONNELL: Ayman Mohyeldin in Brussels, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We`re now joined by Laura Haim of the White House correspondent and U.S. Bureau chief for Canal Plus. Laura, thank you very much for joining us. You were on this network last night and virtually everything we knew about that raid as it was happening was coming through your sources in France were invaluable, giving us an accurate account of what was going on there. What happens next in this investigation? When do -- when do your sources indicate, if they do, when we might find out the identities through those DNA tests of who was in that -- who were the -- who was killed in that raid last night. LAURA HAIM, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT & WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, CANAL PLUS: That certainly -- know that they want to take their time. They want to be fully confident about what they`re going to find. It was extremely violent, and they told us that again, they have to check the DNA to make sure that they`re not going to do any mistake when they`re going to announce something. O`DONNELL: And what is the expectation in terms of the investigation going forward from here. What they obtained or what they found in that raid last night, did that indicate to them that there are more possibilities out there than just this group that was in that apartment? HAIM: No, there`s something that`s questioning the -- it`s not about what happened last night, it`s about what they found in a car. The car was attacking the restaurant on Friday evening, and according to an investigator, they found in the car, knife, they found three knives, they found a lot of bullets. They found three (INAUDIBLE), but they also found bandage. And they don`t understand why people want to commit suicide, who want to blow themselves up. You have bandage, sophisticated bandage inside the car. So, they were wondering if this unit, which was again, the unit which was havocking the restaurants on Friday night was really committed to blow themselves up. And that convinced the investigators, convinced that because they found bandage in the car, it means that the people wanted to leave and maybe wanted to lose something else, knowing that they might have been injured in the attacks of the restaurant. So that`s a tricky point for the investigators at this moment. O`DONNELL: Laura, what led the police to that apartment last night? HAIM: In fact, the woman suicide bomber, and that`s why it`s so interesting and so tragic for France and Europe. Because this story of this woman suicide bomber is absolutely huge for the investigators. Her name is Hasna Aitboulahcen. That`s what our sources are telling us, and we`re quite confident to report that. She`s 26 years old, she was born in France, and she was indeed the cousin of Abaaoud, the organizer of the attacks. And that`s the reason she was wiretapped because she was close cousin to him. She was wiretapped by three different services from the French intelligence. One was an administrative unit, and they wiretapped her a few months ago because, again, she was the cousin of Abaaoud. The second service which wiretapped her according to our sources was a unit which was in charge of Islam and drug traffickers. She was dealing drugs, so, also they wiretapped her phone. And the third unit which wiretapped was an anti-terrorist unit according to what we learned, she became completely panicked a few weeks ago. We don`t know when precisely, but she became completely panicked when she heard that Abaaoud was traveling from Syria to come to Europe. And that was the trigger point. The French police, the French intelligence began really to follow up closely, and then yesterday, according to our sources, they were absolutely convinced that she was going to be in her apartment, in that apartment, we`re checking again this fact. And that they were going to find her alone with two men and they didn`t expect at all this level of violence, according to the director of the raid -- I mean, the director of this unit, which is so specialized in the fight against terror. When they arrived, she began to fire at them extremely violently. She had explosives, and then it was silent. And a few minutes ago, she blew herself up. According to the people who were on the site, she really wanted to blow herself up because they`re convinced that she wanted to kill them in the explosion. O`DONNELL: And the fact that they were able to wiretap her, that seems like something obviously a big slip-up on her part, and on the other conspirators` part that they would -- that she`d be using a phone known to French authorities, and apparently, known to French authorities for a while. HAIM: Yes, that`s the problem of this story, you know. The French are watching a lot of people. It`s a very difficult task. And those people are operated inside families. Again, on the attacks in Paris, we know that there were two brothers. That`s now the cousin of the architect of the attack. This is a family structure. So the French services are trying time to time to listen to the family members, hoping that sometimes it`s going to bring them something. And apparently it was the case for this one. O`DONNELL: Laura Haim, thank you for guiding our live coverage of that raid last night and thank you for joining us again tonight. HAIM: You`re welcome. O`DONNELL: Coming up, Islamic State released new propaganda video today, this time showing images of New York City. Obviously intended to be taken as a threat to New York City. Up next, more on the investigation by French authorities. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I chose to bring them here today because I think it`s important for them to understand what`s going on. And for them to see what -- that we`re all out here anyway, because we`re not afraid and we won`t be afraid in terms -- in front of terrorism. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: Coming up, most governors now oppose allowing Syrian refugees into the United States. Two governors will join us with their views, in Washington now, the House of Representatives wants to take action defining exactly what -- who among Syrian refugees can get into this country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I also want to point out that we will not have a religious test, only a security test. If the intelligence and law enforcement community cannot certify that a person presents no threat, then they should not be allowed in. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): A new team of terrorists was neutralized. And we can think that concerning their weapons and organization and structures and their determination of that commando was ready to act again. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Jim Cavanaugh, an Nbc News analyst and Msnbc analyst, retired ATF special agent and a former hostage negotiator for the ATF. Also with us, Laith Alkhouri, co-founder and director of Middle East and North Africa research and analysis for Flashpoint; an intelligence consulting firm. He`s also an Msnbc analyst. Laith, what do you make of that point that the prosecutor made today that they believed they collected evidence indicating they were ready and intending to act again. LAITH ALKHOURI, CO-FOUNDER & DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST & NORTH AFRICA RESEARCH & ANALYSIS, FLASHPOINT: Well, look, I think that the cellphone that was discarded during the attacks on Friday might have led them through forensic analysis on that phone to open some information data, names, phone numbers and maybe track that. Or cross reference those phone numbers and names with a database that they already have, some sort of a blacklist. But furthermore, I think authorities are -- the story is still unfolding. They`re still trying to determine whether the ringleader was part of the individuals who were killed, and -- but in grand scheme of things, I think that this is too sophisticated for, you know, him or the other individuals to be seen in that neighborhood. So, I think there`s a lot of speculation there. O`DONNELL: And Jim Cavanaugh, can you see any incentive for the investigators and the prosecutor to not reveal the identities of who was killed last night? Even if they definitely already know it as "The Washington Post" is reporting? JIM CAVANAUGH, RETIRED SPECIAL AGENT, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO FIREARMS & EXPLOSIVES: Yes, I think they just really got -- you know, bodies that are blown to smithereens by, you know, possibly, a woman wearing a suicide belt. Which might have a charge on it, Lawrence, as much as 20 pounds of explosives. And so you`re going to have a massive blast in there, and so the bodies are, you know, pretty unrecognizable and they`re really just trying to be sure. They might have to get a DNA, blood test, a fingerprint, so that may be the delay. O`DONNELL: We`re going to show now some of the video that the Islamic State released today, a propaganda video that depicts New York City. In some of the elements of that video, obviously, specifically intended to be interpreted as a threat here in New York City. The FBI statement on this video is, we are aware of the reporting of ongoing terrorist threats to New York City to include the newly released ISIS video involving Times Square. These instance reaffirms the message that New York City remains a terrorist target. While there`s no specific articulable threat to the city at this time. Laith, what`s your interpretation of this situation with that video and the FBI`s response to it? ALKHOURI: I believe it`s exactly what the FBI and then like he did say earlier today, which is, you know, this is a propaganda value mostly, trying to issue yet another threat to New York City. One of the most desirable targets for terrorist groups around the world, of course, including ISIS, and before that, al Qaeda. But I think, you know, this footage has been recycled before. It`s been used in previous ISIS videos, and so it is not new, the threat is not new, but the video message is new, which is threatening France yet again in the same video, saying that this is not over. And it`s not over, I guess, on a much wider scale. So, it`s not just France, it`s not over -- it`s not over for other countries we view as enemy nations. O`DONNELL: And Jim Cavanaugh, all of us here in New York wake up everyday knowing that this is a target city, NYPD obviously knows, it`s a target city. How does this video -- what does this video change if anything in NYPD`s posture and the general security posture in New York City? CAVANAUGH: Well, you can see from their new terrorist team, the 500-man terrorist team they`ve deployed, they`re really on top of their game. But New Yorkers aren`t in any more danger yesterday before the video than they are today. And I agree with Laith on that. There is a trend, a light motive, always the terrorists want to hit Manhattan, but it hasn`t gotten more dangerous. What`s the most dangerous thing at the moment, I think, is the tempo of the ISIS attacks externally. The attack in Turkey, the attack in Beirut, the Russian airliner, the multiple attacks in Paris from all suicide bombers and their use of operational security. The tempo of these events, success upon success upon success. They want to strike more and more and more. U.S. is a target, New York is a target, but they`re just trying to inspire somebody to do something here. Which they do every day, they try to inspire someone. If they had an operational cell, with an operational commander like Abaooud, you know, working in the U.S., we probably wouldn`t see a cheesy video like that. But I don`t think they have that level of sophistication here at this point, and Laith can speak to that as well. Europe, they have it, France has it, we`ve seen it, unfortunately. O`DONNELL: Laith, five Syrians arrested today, moving through Central America reportedly by the authorities intending to travel by land to the United States, using what they determined to be fake Greek passports. This is what everyone is worried about. ALKHOURI: Absolutely. I mean, this is a massive worry, not only -- not only among the populists of the many countries that are hosting refugees, but also among a lot of politicians. But I think, you know, passports are, you know, somewhat, easily faked, you know, they could be faked. We`ve seen these cases happen before. Somebody just went online the other day and said, he was able to fake a Syrian passport and a Syrian ID with essentially -- pretty cheaply. And so, you know, I think this is something that terrorists might try to exploit and might try to take advantage of, but I think in the grand scheme of things, it`s not exactly their main priority. O`DONNELL: But Jim Cavanaugh, with all this talk of the weakness of our southern border, it would seem inviting to terrorists. CAVANAUGH: Well, it is, Lawrence, but it`s so de minimis or risk. I mean, this is just xenophobia. You know, these are people fleeing persecution, hundreds of thousands of people killed in Syria. These are the victims of these terrorists groups. They`re really a very low risk, a very low risk for this. It`s just sort of a posturing and, like Laith said, you know, politicians fear mongering. Law enforcements won`t want to spend a lot of time on this. I mean, I can tell you, they should be vetted, of course, anybody coming into the country, I totally agree. But the risk is more from people in Europe, western Europe, who really are ISIS members, really are al Qaeda people, really have traveled to fight in Syria, Iraq, years ago, in Afghanistan. Those people who we know and who really are terrorists coming over to the United States on a visa program. Not refugees who are being persecuted, barely getting away with their lives and their babies and the clothes on their back. I don`t think there`s very much danger there at all. O`DONNELL: Jim Cavanaugh and Laith Alkhouri, thank you both for joining us tonight. Coming up, Republican rhetoric heats up over admitting Syrian refugees into the United States. We will have two governors join us. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are not a nation that delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murderers because some politician doesn`t like their religion. (END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Speaking to an audience and French mayors today, French president Francois Hollande announced that France will still accept 30,000 Syrian refugees over the next two years even after at least one of last week`s attacker was found of what authorities believed to be a fake Syrian passport. Here in the U.S. House speaker Paul Ryan today spoke in favor of a Republican-led house bill that would make it more difficult for Syrian refugees to enter this country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: We can be compassionate and we can also be safe. That`s what the bill we`re bringing up tomorrow is all about. It calls for a new standard of verification for refugees from Syria and Iraq. It would mean a pause in the program until we can be certain beyond any doubt that those coming here are not a threat. It`s that simple. And I don`t think it`s asking too much. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: The White House warned today that President Obama would veto that bill. The White House tweeted, slamming the door in the face of refugees would betray our deepest values. That`s not who we are. It`s not what we`re going to do. Last night, President Obama had strong words for the Republican presidential candidates who opposed allowing Syrian refugees in this country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ISIL seeks to exploit the idea that there`s a war between Islam and the west. And when you start seeing individuals in positions of responsibility suggesting that Christians are more worthy of protection than Muslims are in a war-torn land, that feeds the ISIL narrative. And these are the same folks often times who suggest that they are so tough that just talking to Putin or staring down ISIL or using some additional rhetoric is somehow going to solve the problems out there. But apparently, they are scared of widows and orphans coming into America as a part of our tradition of compassion. At first, they were worried about the press being too tough on them during debates. Now they`re worried about 3-year-old orphans. That doesn`t sound very tough to me. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Ted Cruz was the first Republican candidate this week to say we should accept only Christian refugees into this country. Ted Cruz reacted to the president`s comments with his predictable childish bluster. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, let me suggest something, Mr. President. If you want to insult me, you can do it overseas, you can do it in Turkey, you could do it in foreign countries, but I would encourage you, Mr. President, come back and insult me to my face. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Up next, two governors will join us to discuss the Syrian refugee situation. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are not a nation that delivers children back into the hands of ISIS murder because some politician doesn`t like their religion. And we are not a nation that backs down out of fear. Our first responsibility is to protect this country. We must embrace that fundamental obligation, but we do not make ourselves safer by ignoring our common humanity and turning away from our moral obligation. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Oregon governor Kate Brown and Connecticut governor Dan Malloy. Governor Brown, are you prepared to help Syrian refugees resettle in Oregon? GOV. KATE BROWN (D), OREGON: Yes. We will continue to welcome Syrian refugees to Oregon, as long as they have been thoroughly vetted by the federal agencies. O`DONNELL: Governor Malloy, what is your view of Syrian refugees and how Connecticut should receive them? GOV. DAN MALLOY (D), CONNECTICUT: Well, you know, I met a family today that was scheduled to go to Indiana. And based on the position that their governor took were redirected to Connecticut, I actually went down to New Haven and met a husband and a wife and their 5-year-old son. They were driven from homes in 2011. They have been in refugee camps for four-plus years. They have gone through an exhaustive process with the United States government. And they were found to be eligible to come to the United States. And I wanted to make sure that they understood that they were welcome in Connecticut. Quite frankly, the United States has an obligation just as France and other nations have an obligation to resettle refugees. This has been established international law, at least since 1951, under certain agreements reached the United Nations that required then the resettlement of people from the Second World War. We participated throughout. No one has said that, you know, previously before this stuff on Friday, people weren`t having this discussion about refugees from Syria or for that matter anywhere in the Middle East. And all of a sudden because we have a particularly small group of people, we`re having these kinds of discussions. If you`re going to block anybody from coming to the country, and I`m arguing this, just be certain. But the people who perpetrated the attack were from France and Belgium. We are not stopping people from airports who are coming to our country, their visit from France or Belgium or saying that they shouldn`t be allowed to relocate to our country. There is a certain xenophobic, perhaps racism involved in what`s going on here. And I`m sure that nobody wants to admit that that`s what`s going on, but if you look at the entirety of the discussion we`re having, these governors, these Republican governors have said they won`t allow people from Syria in their states, not one of them, to the best of my knowledge, is saying we should have universal background checks for guns. We know now that over 2,043 people on the terrorism watch list were allowed to buy guns in the United States legally between 2004 and 2014 because the NRA has been effective in making sure that there`s not a cross reference to the terrorism watch list. If you can`t get on a plane in Syria or in the United States without somebody doing a background check, why are we allowing terrorists or people on the watch list to buy guns in America? If you want to make America safer, let`s clamp down on illegal guns, 30,000 people in America will die as a result of gun violence. Governor Brown had a terrible incident at a community college in her state just a short while ago. There are things that we can do to make Americans safer, but I don`t see the speaker of the house saying we should clamp down on guns or that we should allow people to stop buying guns over the internet without a background check or at a show without a background check. What he has decided to do is to pick on this particular group, because it seems in his mind, and other`s minds, I suppose, to makes political sense and I am against that. I think we have to fulfill our international obligations and our moral obligations. O`DONNELL: Governor Brown, some of your colleagues and governors around the country seem to believe that they could simply stand on the interstate and prevent people from entering their states which, of course, is illegal. They cannot do that. They have absolutely no control, you have no control as governors as to who enters your states from other states. But the states do run programs in specific assistance to refugees in these kinds of situations. And there may be some discretion among governors as to exactly how much help they direct to certain people in those programs. Do you see anything in the programs that Oregon has that you would want to adjust in any way in relation to Syrian refugees? BROWN: Well, in Oregon, we see this state as a safe haven. And we will welcome Syrian refugees, other political refugees with open arms. We think it is our obligation to open the doors of opportunity for them. The private organizations on the ground will make sure that they have the services they need, the education services, the employment services, the relocation services to make sure that they can get ahead and succeed in this country. O`DONNELL: I want to listen to what FBI director Comey said recently about the possible risk of admitting Syrian refugees. Let`s listen to this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES COMEY, DIRECTOR, FBI: On behalf of the FBI, what you can assure them is that we will work day and night to make sure that if there is information available about somebody, we have surfaced it and we have evaluated it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I understand that if there is an information. But the problems that we don`t have the information on most of these people, isn`t that true? COMEY: Yes. And so, I can`t sit here and offer anybody an absolute assurance that there`s no risk associated with this. (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: Governor Malloy, what`s your response to this? MALLOY: The U.N. sent 23,000 names to the United States for possible inclusion as refugees. From that group, the United States reviewed those files and accepted 7,000 for further review. Of that 7,000, less than 2,100 have actually been admitted to the United States. The family that I met, this 5-year-old young child that I shook hands with and he looked me straight in the eye and I complimented him on that. He is going to be a great American. They have been in the process for well over 12 months. The average process period forth to come in as a refugee is 12 to 18 months if you`re accepted. And a lot of people are not accepted. This is a very thorough process. So thorough that to the best of our knowledge no Syrian who has come into the country over the last several years has had a legal problem of any type. And certainly no threats of terrorism have arisen. But I mean, let`s -- again, Lawrence, if I can, we know that a large percentage of the attackers on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia. No one said we should stop commerce or trade or visitation from Saudi Arabia. We know that other people have perpetrated crimes around the world from other countries. But yet we`re talking about this relatively small group of people. And let me make this point. No one has taken a vote from Turkey or from Syria, a raft to the United States. They got to go someplace else. There`s plenty of time to check this out. What we`re talking about is do we honor our international obligation and our moral obligation. And at least in my state I say yes. O`DONNELL: Governor Brown, Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan has suggested that we take a pause. He is not opposed to moving forward in the future, but he says as a result of these events in the last week, what about a pause just to examine what`s going on here. When people in government talk about a pause, that means stopping it. And then you somehow have to restart it. So I`m not sure how that would work. That seems to be what the House of Representatives are talking about, too. What they`re calling a pause in the Obama administration is interpreting as stopping it. BROWN: Well, as you know, the states don`t have independent authority to refuse refugees. I think in my mind, this is a question. It`s a test of who we are as a people. Are we going to continue to be a beacon of hope and light for the rest of the world? Or are we going to shut down that light? In Oregon, we want to make sure we provide an incredible, safe opportunity for these refugees, that they have the ability to rebuild their lives after suffering from devastating circumstances. In my mind, that`s who we are. We are a safe haven and we are opening the doors of opportunity. O`DONNELL: Governors Kate Brown and Dan Malloy. Thank you both for joining us on this important issue. Thank you. MALLOY: Thank you, Lawrence. O`DONNELL: Coming up, the bomb that the Islamic state says brought down that Russian jet over Egypt. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: That was Vladimir Putin yesterday. And today, the Islamic state has published what they claim is proof of its involvement in the bombing of that plane. In the latest issue of the terror group`s official magazine "Dabiq," the Islamic state revealed what they say is an image of the improvised explosive device used to take on the Russian passenger plane. In the picture, a soda can is shown with what appears to be commercial grade detonator and a switch connected to a battery. U.S. intelligence sources say that if a single can was used as the explosive, it was likely placed inside the main cabin under a window seat. An article in the magazine asserts that the Islamic state originally planned to target a western country but changed their plan when Russia began bombing Syria. Yesterday, the Russian air force reported that it had completed one of its largest air strikes yet, launching 34 cruise missiles, and claiming to destroy 14 Islamic state targets in Syria. Joining us now is Tom Thurman. He is a former FBI explosives expert and now a professor in the arson and explosion investigation program at eastern Kentucky University. Tom Thurman, this soda can bomb, that is enough to take down a plane like that? TOM THURMAN, EXPLOSIVE EXPERT, EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. I would imagine, although I haven`t done it, that you could pack at least a pound of explosives in that can, and I would like to remind you that this is a narrow bodied plane. It`s not a huge airplane. And less than a pound of explosives brought down 747 Pan-Am 103. So absolutely. It`s entirely possible. O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Russia`s head of security said about their analysis of the bomb. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (END VIDEO CLIP) O`DONNELL: So he was speaking yesterday before he saw this image of a soda can that ISIS released today. And he was saying that they believed it to be about a kilogram, it is about just over two pounds of TNT, as he describes it, went off inside. Could you get that much into that one soda can, do you think? THURMAN: I think that`s stretching the story. That soda can would not take in my opinion two pounds or one kilogram of explosives. And actually, again, it doesn`t take two pounds. An airliner flying at cruise altitude, 30,000 feet, the only thing it has to do with blow a hole in the side of the plane and that`s your explosive hole. That`s your explosion dynamics. And you have possibly a pressure differential of 8.2 psi. And at that point, you have a mechanical implosion of the plane. The pressure exiting that plane actually at that point rips the plane apart. It`s not the explosion at that point. The explosion starts this whole process. And then, again, it`s carried out by the pressure differential in the plane. O`DONNELL: And there`s a lot of controls that are running under the floors and up in the ceilings of these aircraft and you lose a lot of the controls in this kind of an explosion? THURMAN: And if the bomb is under a seat, that`s true. But in modern aircraft today, they don`t have the controls as we had in the old planes with actual cables. It`s all electronics. And electronics are a lot easier to destroy than the cables. But still, the point being at 30,000 feet, you blow a hole in the side of the plane, which if a soda can is, in fact, our container, the plane comes apart by the explosive decompression. It is not going to continue to fly. O`DONNELL: Tom Thurman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Coming up, the story of a woman who chose to run toward the sound of the guns on Friday night in Paris. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) O`DONNELL: And tonight`s "Last Word." Anne Sophie de Chaisemartin a producer at France 24 news. She lives across the street from the sidewalk cafe called La Belle Equipe which was attacked on Friday night, 19 people were killed. When she heard the sound of the gun, she ran towards the sound of the gun. She told Lester Holt what happened next. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANNE SOPHIE DE CHAISEMARTIN, FRANCE ATTACK WITNESS: This is the most terrible image I have on my head is to see 10, 11, 12, maybe 15 people lying down. All the people were very, very calm. No screaming, no noise. LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Tell me who you treated first. DE CHAISEMARTIN: It was a woman who had a gunshot in the arm. I remember applying to with her right here. People started to feel the pain and people started to scream and people started to panic and ask for treatment first, what are you doing? Help me, look at this. HOLT: One of the people that you treated that you met was an American woman. DE CHAISEMARTIN: Yes. It`s a very important memory because she didn`t speak a word of French. She had beautiful eyes and I was actually joking with her. I was trying to keep her focused and with me. And I think I looked at her deeply in the eyes for maybe 20 minutes nonstop. HOLT: It must have been comforting for her to hear someone speak her language. DE CHAISEMARTIN: Yes. She was less wounded than others. So she had to wait a long time, a very long time lying on the floor. HOLT: Has this taken something from the Paris that we all know and love? DE CHAISEMARTIN: Absolutely not. They didn`t cake anything. We will really stand up and we will really fight in our own way. We will always have the (INAUDIBLE). We will always - I know everyone with a horrible smelly cheese, French art, French culture, nothing of these has been taken. And this happened in Paris now, but for me it happened all the world at the same time. (END VIDEOTAPE) END <Copy: Content and programming copyright 2015 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2015 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of CQ-Roll Call. 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