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Transcript: The ReidOut, September 3, 2020

Guests: Laurence Tribe, Elizabeth Neumann, Jennifer Palmieri

Summary

Biden visits Kenosha, Wisconsin amid unrest; Biden meets with Jacob Blake`s family in Kenosha; Biden discusses call with Jacob Blake today; Biden on call with Jacob Blake, he talked about how noting was going to defeat him; A tale of two Kenoshas as both Trump, Biden visit this week; Trump visits battleground state of Pennsylvania as Biden visits Kenosha; Kenosha Common Council president says Trump visited Kenosha to take victory lap and show division; Kenosha holds community celebration for Jacob Blake; Biden meets with leaders in Kenosha, Wisconsin after Blake shooting; Trump campaign manager on Kenosha after Trump visit, not the time to be injecting politics into a serious situation; Biden attends community meeting in Kenosha, Wisconsin; Attorney General Barr says, Blake was armed and committing a felony; Attorney General Barr says, don`t necessarily see deep-seeded racism in police; Attorney General Barr says, Blake was armed and committing a felony; Biden says, we`ve reached an inflection point in U.S. history; Former Sheriff David Clarke on vigilantes, you have the right to defend yourself, you don`t need permission; Black man dies after being restrained by Rochester, New York Police; Rochester mayor suspends officers involved in death of Daniel Prude after protests over body cam footage. The Trump administration is so desperate to manufacture an atmosphere of left wing violence ahead of the election and to ignore the violence being perpetrated by some of their open supporters, including white nationalists, that they are now floating the idea of going after protesters with the same tactics used to go after the mafia.

Transcript

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: And I want you all to sit with that truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Sit with that truth. She gets the last word tonight. The Obamas know elections. But when it comes to Democrats, they know about winning elections.

I`ll see you tomorrow at 6:00 P.M. Eastern. THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid starts now.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: A tale of two Kenoshas. Two days after Donald Trump visited the city bringing his message of division with him, Joe Biden arrived in Wisconsin today to show that he could make good on his promise to help heal the city in the wake of the police shooting of 29-year-old Jacob Blake and the protest that followed. Biden and his wife, Jill, held a 90-minute meeting with Blake`s family, including his father, three siblings and his mother who joined by phone.

Later at a gathering at a Kenosha church, Biden said he had spoken by phone for about 15 minutes with Jacob Blake who is now out of intensive care.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: He talked about how nothing was going to defeat him, how whether he walked again or not, he was not going to give up.

I think what has been unleashed with a lot of people is, they understand that fear doesn`t solve problems, only hope does.

And what I came away with was the overwhelming sense of resilience and optimism that they have about, the current (ph) response to get in here (ph), his mom talked about -- yes, my wife asked to say a prayer, and his mom said a prayer. She said, I`m praying for Jacob, but I`m praying for the policemen as well. I`m praying things change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: In a statement, Family Attorney Ben Crump said Mr. Blake Sr. talked about the need for systemic reform because the excessive use of force by police against minorities has been going on for far too long. That message has made all the more poignant by the fact that as we speak in Rochester, New York, yet another community deals with the pain of death of a black man in police custody. And we`ll have that later on the show.

Now, the reason we haven`t shown you any images of Joe Biden`s visit with the Blake family is because it was closed to the press in deference to the family`s privacy.

And compare that with what we saw from Donald Trump two days ago, Trump went way out of his way to turn everything into a photo-op, as he often does, meeting with law enforcement, including a very controversial sheriff who once said some people aren`t worth saving and should be warehoused.

Trump also staged a visit to a burned down business but not with a business owner who declined to participate in this stunt but instead casting the former owner in what amounted to a video press released to genuflect to Trump.

As Biden made his trip Wisconsin as the Democratic nominee, Trump, not content to share the spotlight, is in the battleground state of Pennsylvania. At today`s event in Kenosha, one community member drew a stark contrast between the two visits.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY KENNEDY, PRESIDENT, KENOSHA COMMON COUNCIL: We know that someone came here to take a victory lap. We know that someone came here to show division. We know that someone came here not to help us. But the people surrounding the family decided we`re not going to show that picture to the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: He highlighted what occurred on Tuesday at the same time that Trump was arriving. A community celebration on the corner where Jacob Blake was shot seven times by a Kenosha police officer, an image Donald Trump most certainly did not want you to see but we`re happy to show you.

Joining me now from Kenosha is Janell Ross, Senior Reporter for NBCBLK, also with us, Heather McGhee, co-Chair of Color of Change, and Jennifer Palmieri, former White House Communications Director under President Obama and author of She Proclaims, Our Declaration of Independence from a Man`s World.

And, Janell, I want to start by asking you -- give us a sense of what happened in that town hall, what kind of questions were asked and how was the vice president received?

JANELL ROSS, NBC BLK SENIOR REPORTER: There were a range of issues raised with the vice president, as I understand. There were questions about policy, policing reforms. There were also questions about the damages sustained by businesses and what sorts of efforts will be made to help them. I personally have spoken with a business owner who told me that his insurance has informed him that he has no coverage for civil unrest, so this is a serious question.

In addition, there was some discussion about the general sort of tone and mood of the country, a state of sort of -- or a sense of many people that we are in a state of sort of chaos and what the appropriate role for a president might be in such a situation.

I think there is also a great deal of concern coming from both the Blake family and activists here in Kenosha. There`s a lot of effort that`s been made to try to keep the conversation really focused on policy but also what is going to happen with regard to the specific officer who shot Jacob Blake and understanding what is happening with that investigation because there is not much information that has been made public.

REID: Yes. And, you know, Jennifer, this is a tricky situation when somebody is running for president, right? There is a balance between being there. And I think it was obvious to most people who are watching this campaign that it was important for Joe Biden to go to Kenosha, particularly after Donald Trump did, but balancing it to make sure that it isn`t seen as overt politics without much behind it.

Here is -- I want to play something ironic for you. This is Bill Stepien, remember, the shut the bridge down guy. He is the new campaign manager for Trump. And here he is talking about Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL STEPIEN, TRUMP 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER: The president was there earlier in the week as president of the United States. Vice President Biden is there today as a candidate, as a political candidate. This is not the time to be injecting politics into a really serious situation that the president helped solve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Your witness, Jennifer?

JENNIFER PALMIERI, FORMER OBAMA WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes. so I`m actually in Milwaukee, I`m here for the circus. And I covered the Trump event in Kenosha on Tuesday. And I`ll tell you, Kenoshans are pretty tired of being a backdrop for a political fight. So I think that for Biden to come in and go to a church was a very important signal, right?

What you saw -- what I saw Trump doing, what I literally saw, is them staging a photo-op, bringing in armored vehicles, positioning them in front of businesses that were tragically destroyed but it was very much a photo-op.

And, you know, Democrats in Wisconsin are nervous, so I will tell you they are -- this state is always razor thin. Trump won by 27 percentage points. This is a state that had a lot of support for Black Lives Matter a couple months ago, those numbers have dropped precipitously. Police are very popular in this state.

There`s a poll coming out next week from (INAUDIBLE). They are sort of the gold standard here. And I did talk to the pollster a couple of days ago. And he`s not sure that even Kenosha is going to make that much of a difference in the race though because things are so sort of stable in terms of who supports Biden and Trump.

But that poll which comes out next Wednesday will really be telling, because if Trump can`t move voters trying to scare them with his message in Wisconsin, after Kenosha, it suggests to me that that`s not going to really work anywhere if it doesn`t work here.

REID: Yes. I mean, I think as long as the coronavirus is out there, the polls so far show that that won`t work. So, as a matter for the community, Heather, and welcome to the show, I think this is the first time you`ve been on, it`s -- there`s a strange message coming out of the White House, which I guess isn`t strange if you know what Bill Barr is and what he`s decided that he wants to be, which is none of this is real.

None of this talk about systemic violence is real. There`s no such thing as police brutality against black people. Black people are making this up. And, obviously, this is an appeal to white voters, they hope, to say that black people are just being hysterical, I guess, about police violence when it isn`t real.

Here he is saying that, just so you don`t think I`m making this up. Here is William Barr -- let`s do two things. Here is first him saying -- here is the difference between George Floyd and Jacob Blake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Floyd was already subdued, incapacitated, in handcuffs and he`s not armed. In the Jacob case, he was in the midst of committing a felony and he was armed. So that`s a big difference.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: His family says he wasn`t armed. There may have been a knife in the car but he wasn`t armed when he was shot. That`s what his family and lawyers said.

BARR: I stated what I believe to be the difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So he just made up something that isn`t true. He spoke to the top law enforcement official in the country and he just made up a fact that isn`t true about Jacob Blake. Here he is again talking about whether he thinks there is deep-seeded racism in policing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: I do think there appears to be a phenomenon in the country where African-Americans feel that they are treated when they are stopped by police frequently as suspects before they are treated as citizens. I don`t think that that necessarily reflects deep-seeded racism in police departments or in most police officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: What is that? What is that supposed to be? Your thoughts, Heather.

HEATHER MCGHEE, MSNBC POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, it`s really important to Bill Bar and to his ideology and to the Trump base to say that racism doesn`t exist, because racism is still bad to them. It just doesn`t exist. If it does exist, the most prominent form of racism is actually black racism and brown racism against white people, right? That`s the world view.

But when it comes to the city of Kenosha and its nearby bigger city, Milwaukee, it`s so important we recognize just like Minneapolis where George Floyd flowed was murdered, these are communities that have been completely shaped by racism. And where the past 30 years, the life opportunities for black Milwaukee, just for black Minnesotans, for black people in Minneapolis, have actually declined.

And there was a young woman who spoke at the Biden event who sort of went off script and she just said, I`m just so tired. And there was a study that came out from University of Wisconsin and Milwaukee that actually black Milwaukee is near the bottom or at the bottom on dozens of different indicators of all 50 major metropolitan areas in the country.

And so that kind of lack of opportunity, the lowest home ownership rate in the country, the highest residential segregation in the country, the lowest income in the country among black people in Milwaukee, that kind of lack of opportunity is what is really behind the unrest that you`re seeing in Kenosha and about the higher incidence of police contact.

I mean, so when people talk about defunding the police, they are saying, we want you to invest in opportunity in this community because you always seem to have money to take away our freedom, where is the money and the investment in infrastructure to help create opportunity and freedom?

REID: You know, you could just be describing the Michael Brown case in Ferguson, you could be describing Freddie Gray case in Baltimore, you could be describing the Trayvon Martin case in Florida. Literally, all of the things that you just talked about, the economic and background factors all were the same. And you can just go city by city by city. I`m glad that you brought that out.

I want to listen to a little more of Joe Biden today, just so we can actually hear more of what he said. Here he is. This is cut four.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Well, I think we`ve reached an inflection point in American history. I, honest to God, believe we have an enormous opportunity now that the screen -- the curtain has been pulled back on just what`s going on in the country to do a lot of really positive things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Janell, and I want a -- you put a pin in that for a second while we listen to another voice out of Milwaukee. This is the former sheriff of Milwaukee County. His name is David Clarke. If you don`t remember him, he is the guy whose jail a man died in, a mentally ill man kept for seven days without water. That`s who he is. The man was begging for water and he died in Sheriff Clarke`s jail, just so you know who he is. Here he is toady in contrast to Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID CLARKE, FORMER MILWAUKEE COUNTY SHERIFF: I`m just telling people, hey, you`re on your own. Think about it, have a plan, act reasonably. You have to act reasonably. Then you`re going to have to articulate what you did afterwards.

Have a plan, think it through, be able to articulate it and be reasonable. It`s all the law requires. You have the right to defend yourself. You don`t need permission from the police or a sheriff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: He`s basically giving an instruction manual to vigilantes. How divided, Janell, just in being there in the city of Kenosha, is that city along the lines of what Biden said and what Sheriff Clarke said?

ROSS: It is, of course, always difficult to say and that I`ve talked to some Kenosha residents. I would say that I certainly heard from many more people looking for a sense of restored calm and order, but a number of people who are also deeply concerned about what sort of lurks underneath the surface of that restored calm and order as well.

Just as Heather was saying, there is a roughly $20,000 a year income gap between white and black households here in Kenosha. There are significant and longstanding concerns about stop-and-frisk activity here in Kenosha, being inordinately focused on black people, in particular, young black men here in Kenosha. And then there is also the sort of question of militia groups.

This is a growing phenomenon around the country. I talked to some sources yesterday who study and track militia groups. And it seems militia organizations or members have been spotted at Black Lives Matter protests around the country all summer.

REID: Wow. This is what I describe this as an exhaustion election, because I think that`s how most people feel in the country right now. Janell Ross, thank you very much. Heather McGhee, thank you. Jennifer Palmieri, thank you.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, 600 miles from Kenosha, in Rochester, New York, the family of Daniel Prude is seeking justice after he was suffocated in police custody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE PRUDE, DANIEL PRUDE`S BROTHER: They did not so no type of respect for human life, none.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Daniel Prude`s brother, who you just saw right there, joins me next.

And Trump talks law and order, but it`s the opposite, it`s crime and chaos. He`s telling his voters to vote twice. And, surprise, Bill Barr is backing him up.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Yet another black man has died being restrained by police. It happened in Rochester, New York, in March. But we`re only just now seeing the police body cam footage and only because the family of 41-year-old Daniel Prude released a portion of it yesterday. And we want to warn you, the video is disturbing, so prepare yourself for it.

It shows Prude naked shouting and being restrained with handcuffs. Officers say they put a spit hood on Prude`s head because he was spitting and claimed to have coronavirus for the officers. An officer then held Prude to the ground while another had a knee on his back.

Later, he becomes unresponsive. He was taken to the hospital where he died seven days later. Now, it`s unclear whether or how the footage was edited or what happened beforehand. Protesters and the Prude family are calling for the officers to be fired and prosecuted. The police chief says the department has launched an internal and criminal investigation, but declined to discuss the cause of death, citing ongoing investigation and a possible lawsuit.

Late today, the mayor announced that the officers involved would be suspended. According to an autopsy report obtained by the family`s attorney, Prude`s death was caused by complications of asphyxia in the setting of physical restraint, excited delirium and acute PCP intoxication were listed as contributing factors.

At a press conference yesterday, Prude`s brother says he called 911 that night to get help for Prude.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE PRUDE, BROTHER OF DANIEL PRUDE: I placed a phone call for my brother to get help, not for my brother to get lynched.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Joining me now is Daniel Prude`s brother, Joe Prude, along with Elliot Shields and Donald Thompson (ph), who are attorneys for the Prude family.

Thank you all for being here. I really appreciate it.

And our -- all of our team`s deepest condolences to you, Mr. Prude.

Thank you so much for being willing to be here under such difficult circumstances.

PRUDE: Thank you.

REID: Of course, sir.

So, let`s talk about this incident. It happened back in March. You initially called for help for your brother. Why?

PRUDE: I experienced the activity that he was saying out of his mouth.

It kind of shook me up, because my brother never acted like that before. He never spoke those type of words. And when he spoke those type of words, it made me get a little concerned. And it also made me scared.

So, when I came to the conclusion, like, man, I really need to go ahead and call to get my brother some help, because I ain`t never dealt with no situation like this before.

REID: Yes.

PRUDE: So that`s what I done.

REID: And my understanding is that there had been a couple deaths in your family that were really bothersome to him, and that he`d come to be with you because of that. Is that the case?

PRUDE: No, it wasn`t.

REID: OK.

So, let me ask you about his behavior that night, because he -- the police are saying that he was on PCP. He was obviously nude in the street. When you called police, was he already in that state? Was he already unclothed and behaving in an erratic way?

PRUDE: No.

REID: He was not?

PRUDE: No, he wasn`t. No, he was not.

REID: So, what did you expect to have police do when they arrived at your home? What did you think they were going to do?

PRUDE: Well, actually like earlier that day, I had called and I had admitted him into Strong Hospital for a mental hygiene arrest, to see if I could get some type of understanding what was causing his behavior, to act like that.

But that wasn`t what I got. They took him in. And within three hours, they sent him back to my house in a Medicab, with no diagnosis, no symptoms saying he was chemically induced by a drug, or whatever the case may be. They never mentioned none of that to nobody. They just sent him home in a Medicab.

REID: And so the night that you called for police, was the incident that happened, did that happen near your home?

PRUDE: Yes, like right around the corner...

REID: So, you didn`t...

(CROSSTALK)

PRUDE: ... blocks.

REID: Yes.

So you didn`t see anything that happened?

PRUDE: No, I didn`t see none of it.

REID: And when you found out -- who informed you that your -- that your brother had passed? Was it the police?

PRUDE: Actually, I informed my lawyers that they killed my brother.

REID: Oh, so you knew. How did you find out that your brother had been killed?

PRUDE: I don`t know how it came in existence for me to feel the way I felt that night.

REID: Yes.

PRUDE: But when the officers came to my door, I stated, like I always stated and I been continuing to state, that he`s not a threat to nobody but himself. Do not kill my brother.

I don`t know what made me bring that notion out of my mouth. I don`t know what made my heart stick with that. And after all that arise, then I didn`t have the clear knowledge on what happened to my brother, I immediately called my lawyers the next day.

REID: So, he was admitted to the hospital at first. He died later. Right? Is that my understanding?

PRUDE: That`s from my recollection, yes.

REID: So, I was watching my colleague.

My friend and colleague Ari Melber has the show before right mine. And he played a clip from the mayor, in which she was saying that she was initially unaware of how your brother had died.

It`s -- I think it`s surprising and a little distressing. Do you think police were honest with you? Or did police tell you initially what happened? Or did you only really fully understand what happened all these months later, once you got the tapes?

PRUDE: The police never really told me nothing that day.

The only thing they told me was, they apprehended my brother. And that was that. They never told me nothing about my brother was placed on life support, he stopped breathing at the scene of the crime. They never told me none of that.

REID: Let me play -- or let me read you a little bit of what New York Attorney General Letitia James has said.

And this was her statement about your brother`s death.

She said: "I share the community`s concerns, but ensuring a fair and independent investigation into his death and supporting their right to protest, the special investigations and prosecutions unit of my office is already actively investigating this incident."

Are you concerned police weren`t honest in their report or weren`t honest in telling the world or reporting on the way that your brother died or what caused his death?

PRUDE: Yes, I really do believe they was dishonest on what they did, because never should have took that long for the family to realize what happened to their family member.

That was a poor conduct on their behalf, because if something happened to somebody`s family after he done placed a call for help, and you don`t tell me nothing, come on. What else I`m supposed to believe what happened to my brother?

You are hiding something.

REID: Yes.

Let me just really quickly -- before we lose the time with you guys, I`m going to ask Mr. Shields, if I can just ask you a question, the attorney.

PRUDE: Yes.

REID: What`s the process that the family is facing right now? Because it`s odd that it took so long to get the tape.

Do you understand why it took so long to get the tape? And are you concerned that whatever it is that officers originally said happened was not accurate?

ELLIOT SHIELDS, ATTORNEY FOR PRUDE FAMILY: We filed a freedom of information law request to access the reports and the body camera videos on April 3.

He died -- life support was -- the plug was pulled on life support on March 30. So, they ignored our request. We had to file an appeal. They only produced the reports. They refused to produce the body camera footage until August 20.

So, until August 20, we didn`t have the video showing the full story of what happened. But when I initially read the police reports, and especially the report by Sergeant Zenelovic saying that the officers` actions were appropriate and consistent with their training, we knew that there was a problem.

We knew that they had done something wrong. We knew that the tactics that Mark Vaughn said in his report that he used, that he segmented his head, and that he applied hypoglossal nerve technique, we knew that the technique that Troy Taladay said that he used a knee to his back, we know that that`s a deadly technique.

The New York City Council just outlawed that in New York, because they know that it`s such a deadly technique. So we knew that there were problems, and we knew that they weren`t turning over the body camera footage because it was problematic.

And, unfortunately, I wasn`t surprised when I saw it.

REID: Well, I want to thank all of you for being here tonight.

And, again, our condolences to you, Mr. Prude.

PRUDE: Thank you.

REID: Elliot Shields and Donald Thompson, who`s your co-counsel, thank you all for being here tonight.

And coming up: Trump`s lawless tactics continue as we inch closer to November. How he`s telling -- now he`s telling his supporters that they should vote twice, which, as you know, is totally illegal.

We`re back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Donald Trump is promising to make America safe again by running as the law and order president.

But, like many of his business dealings, and quite possibly his SAT scores, it`s all a sham, because he`s anything but. He breaks the law because he does not know the law. He does not care for it. He acts as if laws don`t apply to him or to his family.

He surrounds himself with associates who have broken the law, populating his campaign and then his Cabinet with the likes of ex-National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, who went to prison for lying to the FBI about backdoor conversations with the Russians.

Paul Manafort, who pleaded guilty to conspiracy charges related to money laundering and witness tampering. And, of course, there`s Michael Cohen, Trump`s former attorney and fixer, who implicated his former boss as an unindicted co-conspirator to a crime.

Trump turned the White House, the people`s house, into a MAGA fantasyland for his reelection campaign, causing every administration official who attended to violate the Hatch Act, as did his secretary of state, who stumped for Trump from Israel.

And when he feels the heat around the corner, he attempts to obstruct justice, firing a U.S. attorney who investigated his allies, and looking for loopholes to block the Manhattan district attorney from obtaining his tax returns.

Trump`s idea of imposing law and order across America is to unleash the police and the military against those who are protesting against his administration`s failings, only to denounce law enforcement when they are investigating him and his cronies.

And now Trump is encouraging Americans to vote twice, which is a crime. Donald Trump proves once again that he is not the law and order president. He is instead the president of lawlessness, mob mentality, and fear.

Such flagrant disregard for the law would never fly in a normal presidency. But, as we all know, nothing about this moment is normal.

We also know that Trump gets away with it because the enabler of all this chaos happens to be the top law enforcement official of the country, who acts instead as the hand of the king.

We will have more on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM BARR, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: He`s trying to make the point that the ability to monitor this system is not good.

And if it was so good, if you tried to vote a second time, you would be caught, if you voted in person.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: That would be illegal, if they did that, if...

BARR: I don`t know what the law in the particular states say.

BLITZER: You can`t vote twice.

BARR: Well, I don`t know what the law in a particular state says.

And when that vote becomes final...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Attorney General William Barr, who seems all too willing to tip the scales of justice for his leader, is once again reinforcing Trump`s effort to undercut an election that, according to the polls, Trump is likely to lose.

Joining me now is Harvard Law School Professor Laurence Tribe.

And, Professor Tribe, allow me to quote one Dan Rather, who I`m pretty sure is not a lawyer. He`s just a really great journalist. He writes: "A reminder, it`s illegal to vote twice, but not to impeach twice."

(LAUGHTER)

REID: I mean, do we really have to -- do I have to have an eminent constitutional lawyer on to repeat to the public that it is illegal to vote two times?

What is happening?

LAURENCE TRIBE, PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Well, I feel somewhat superfluous.

(LAUGHTER)

TRIBE: I think most of your viewers know that it`s illegal to vote twice.

I`m surprised he didn`t urge people to vote three times. Why stop at two?

(LAUGHTER)

TRIBE: But the fact is, his crazy idea is, you`re just sort of testing the system.

It`s like saying, I`m not really intending to rob the bank. I`m just wanting to see if their alarm system will work.

(LAUGHTER)

TRIBE: Not much of a defense.

REID: I`m just...

TRIBE: And when Bill Barr says, I don`t really know the law of North Carolina, well, the fact is, every state makes it illegal to vote both by mail-in and in-person.

And it`s also, by the way, a violation of federal law, a federal felony, subject to imprisonment. So, the president committed a federal felony, as well as a felony in the law of North Carolina, when he urged people to violate the law.

And the attorney general of the United States, also in urging people to follow the president`s lead, committed a felony. But I doubt that he will prosecute himself.

But you don`t have to impeach twice. You could impeach once. As far as I know, Bill Barr has never been impeached yet. And he certainly has committed impeachable offenses.

REID: Very good point.

But let me -- let`s let Kayleigh McEnany have a shot, a Harvard graduate. Here she is giving it a shot.

TRIBE: I`m sorry about that.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is not suggesting anyone do anything unlawful. What he said very clearly there is, make sure your vote is tabulated. And if it is not, then vote.

QUESTION: Send it in early and then go and vote? Isn`t that telling someone to go vote twice?

MCENANY: The president said, send it in early. Go and see if it`s been tabulated. If it hasn`t been tabulated, then vote.

It`s very clear. What Democrats are saying is, we want a system full of fraud and we want zero accountability and zero verification.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: I`m going to -- even...

TRIBE: You know...

REID: ... attempting to vote twice is a felony, right?

TRIBE: Right.

And, moreover, what he`s trying to do, and what McEnany is trying to do as well, is simply confuse people, make it look like there`s some special way to crawl into the system and figure out whether they have tabulated your vote yet.

And while you`re doing it, commit another felony.

I think we have to calm down and realize that all of the state attorneys general and secretaries of state have said they have got this under control. They know if you vote by mail. It may be you don`t have a bar code of the sort that would be nice. You don`t have a receipt. But you can rely on the fact that your vote will be tabulated.

And the president is trying to make everyone think the system is so broken that we just can`t trust the results. It`s a Putin-like technique. Don`t believe the system works and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. We can`t let him get away with it.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Right. And the thing -- I think the thing that is frightening about Barr is that nobody I think who paid attention to him believes he would prosecute. You know, if Donald Trump had thousands of people committing voter fraud, Barr would just look the other way, which is scary. But there`s another thing Trump is trying to do, which I`m excited to get your expert opinion whether this is illegal.

Donald Trump is looking to defund America`s cities, meaning he would also be defunding their police departments, by the way, since he says he`s pro-police. He wants to cut funding to Democratic cities and just, you know, excise them from the rest of their states and cut the funding to those cities. If the money that comes from the federal government was appropriated by Congress, can Donald Trump zero it out?

TRIBE: No, he doesn`t have a special spitting spigot. He doesn`t have the power of the purse. He can`t give his attorney general the power that he claims he`s giving him here to identify cities that are lawless and that are anarchic. It`s simply a technique to scare cities that they got to do his bidding.

It looks like he must have slept through high school civics. He doesn`t have the power unless Congress specifies certain circumstances in which money will not be given to cities. But he`s just pulling it out of some part of his body, maybe out of his hat, and he`s making it up as he goes along. It`s really remarkable.

Every day, two or three more clear violations of the law. For a law and order president, there isn`t a lot of order and certainly no law.

REID: Well, let`s just take a look at his friend group. Here is a list of the Trump associates who have been arrested or convicted of crimes. You`ve got Steve Bannon who defrauded Trump`s own supporters by raking in their money to fake build a wall. George Papadopoulos, Michael Flynn, you just go through them. Do you find it ironic, Professor Tribe, that Donald Trump describes himself as a "law and order" president given who`s associated with and what he`s done?

TRIBE: Well, you could call it ironic. That`s a polite word for it. It`s B.S.

This president is lawless in the extreme. He thinks not only is he the state but there is no such thing as the state or the law. He is the law.

He thinks he can do whatever he wants. He and his family are simply the royal family. They are dictators. It`s really a fascist technique. It`s really dangerous to the democracy.

So let`s hope that he does not succeed in confusing everyone enough to lower the voting turnout and somehow manage to pull out a victory. It would really be dangerous for constitutional democracy for this to go on any more than two more months, which is dangerous enough in itself.

REID: Yes. Well, he couldn`t do it without Bill Barr, that`s for sure. So, I think we`ll need to pay attention to him.

Laurence Tribe -- Professor Laurence Tribe, always great to talk to you. Thank you so much.

Coming up next, the latest nonsense that the Trump administration is considering against Black Lives Matter protesters.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The Trump administration is so desperate to manufacture an atmosphere of left wing violence ahead of the election and to ignore the violence being perpetrated by some of their open supporters, including white nationalists, that they are now floating the idea of going after protesters with the same tactics used to go after the mafia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: Why haven`t we seen the leaders of Antifa and BLM arrested and charged for conspiracy under, say, RICO like the heads of mafia families were?

CHAD WOLF, ACTING DHS SECRETARY: Well, this is something I`ve talked to the A.G. personally about and I know that they are working on it. The Department of Justice is targeting and investigating the head of these organizations, the individuals that are paying for these individuals to move across the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: First of all, it wouldn`t even be illegal if someone was paying for people`s flights to cities where they will protest any more than it was illegal for civil rights organizations to pay for the buses that brought northern protesters to the south during the civil rights movement.

But most importantly, there is no evidence that anyone is paying for anyone to do anything, let alone there are dark shadows out there enticing people to commit violent acts.

The law brought up in that clip, RICO, was passed in 1970 to pursue the mafia, you know, the type of people who committed a double homicide over a spilled drink in a Queens bar once.

But here`s the problem: Black Lives Matter and Antifa, which literally stands for anti-fascists, aren`t anything remotely close to organized crime. They are decentralized movement. As activist and legal expert Chip Givens told "The Daily Beast," how are we going to subpoena the hotel records of Antifa? It`s a nonsensical proposition, like if I said, I`m going to subpoena the hotel records of feminism.

I can`t believe I have to say this, but one more time for those in the back -- Black Lives Matter and Antifa are not the mob.

We`ll be right back.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, POLITICAL AD / REPUBLICAN VOTER AGAINST TRUMP)

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER TRUMP DHS OFFICIAL: A very common refrain that I was asked was, does the president`s rhetoric make your job harder? And the answer is yes. The president`s actions in his language are, in fact, racist. Things like very fine people on both sides or send them back to where they came from.

Those words gave permission to white supremacists to think that what they were doing was permissible. And I do think that the president`s divisive language is indirectly tied to some of the attacks that we have seen in the last few years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: That was Elizabeth Neumann. She voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and worked for him as a top counterterrorism official at the Department of Homeland Security until she resigned in April.

Her portfolio included screening and vetting persistent and emerging threats from homegrown terrorism or right wing extremism. She says that in January, plans were in place to deal with a pandemic, but colleagues told her despite warning the administration of what was to come, the White House did nothing.

Last month, she told the world that she could not in good conscious vote for Trump again because he makes the world less safe. She joins a string of former Trump administration officials denouncing their former boss.

And Elizabeth Neumann, former assistant secretary for counterterrorism and threat prevention in the Department of Homeland Security joins me now.

It`s good to see you again. Haven`t seen you since this convention, so thank you for stopping by to talk with us.

I want to show you something. Hopefully, you can see this on your screen. I want to show you Donald Trump who is in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. Look at that. That is a huge rally. I don`t know how many people are there.

But we tried to zoom in to see if we saw masks, didn`t see a lot of masks. It`s basically a potential super spreader event.

When you see him doing something like that, you talked about the fact that there was a plan to deal with the coronavirus pandemic. I imagine something like this would not be part of the plan. What do you make of it?

NEUMANN: Yes. I -- that -- those pictures are quite alarming. You know, the challenge that we have is we have a man that loves to campaign that, maybe better put, he loves to be the target of a crowd. He gets frustrated when he`s pent up and not entertaining.

And I think the -- many of the consequences that we are dealing with now in COVID being mishandled are directly tied to him not wanting to -- to -- if you go back to January, impeachment happened in mid-January, and he just was ready to move on. He was ready to campaign and do these rallies.

And then you had the public health officials telling him, this -- this is not good. We need to activate our plans. We need to take this seriously, and he rebuffed them multiple times until the stock market dropped. As soon as the economy tanked, all of a sudden, he decided we need to take action.

But even in taking the action that they did, it was chaotic, it was not clear who was in charge and they could not put together a coherent communications plan so that we, as Americans, knew what we were supposed to do. And it just led to further chaos which thankfully we had many strong governors step up and stand in the gap.

But that`s -- that`s not what our plans were designed to do. And to be clear, when I talk about these plans, these were plans that were designed 15 years ago. They have been updated. They have been exercised. They were exercised at the beginning of the Trump administration.

This is a threat that we knew was a matter of when, not if. And for the federal government to have responded so poorly is just a damning sentence on the way that this administration has governed.

REID: You know, yes, I think most people agree with you that are watching right now. I want to show, read a little bit from this "Atlantic" article that was really alarming to me. I want the get your take on it as somebody that worked in the national security realm. This is about Donald Trump not wanting to travel to a seminary -- sorry, a cemetery called Aisne Marne, Aisne Marne.

It is the resting place of 2,289 Americans who died during the battle of Belleau Wood during World War I in 1918, 1,060 additional unknown soldiers are there, too. Trump rejected the idea of traveling there because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead according to four people with first hand knowledge of the discussion that day.

And in conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, why should I go to that cemetery? It`s filled with losers.

His niece Mary Trump has a book in which he talks about the fact that his father disparaged military service, that become very angry when the one Trump who ever tried to do military service, the older brother joined the National Guard and the father became very, very angry.

He`s called George H.W. Bush a loser for being shot down during World War II. He doesn`t -- he disparaged General Kelly`s son sacrifice, like why did he do that? And said that during an event in which there would be military personnel, he didn`t want any amputees to be there because, according to Trump, nobody wants to see that.

Donald Trump`s attitude toward the military and his disparagement of them, your thoughts on that?

NEUMANN: It`s heart-breaking. I have friends that have served in the military or spouses of folks in the military, the amount of sacrifice that they go through on a daily basis just to function and live as a family in the military, it`s phenomenal what they do to sacrifice for us, to keep us safe.

That the idea that the commander in chief would care more about himself than the people that protect him day in and day out that allowed him to be successful in business, it`s -- I`m failing to have the right words because it`s just so heart-breaking and yet another example of this man cares only about himself, his policies, his rhetoric.

It`s all about securing the election, about keeping power and making himself look good. He cares more about ratings. He cares more about his appearance than he does about the substance.

REID: Yeah.

NEUMANN: Which is why I found my work so frustrating.

REID: Yeah.

NEUMANN: We made a lot of progress at that practical subject matter expertise level, but we couldn`t make the progress we needed to because he wasn`t willing to focus on it.

REID: Indeed. I wish I had more time with you.

Elizabeth Neumann, thank you very much for being here tonight. Really appreciate it and for speaking out.

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.

END

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