IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Transcript: The ReidOut, September 11, 2020

Guests: Elizabeth Neumann, Ezekiel Emanuel, Karine Jean-Pierre, Kate Brown, Tony Schwartz, Tamron Hall

Summary

Marking 19 years since 9/11 terror attacks. Biden, Pence cross paths at New York City 9/11 Memorial. Report says Durham aide resigns amid pressure from Attorney General Barr. Retired federal judge slams DOJ decision to drop Flynn case. Report says aide to prosecutor investigating Russia probe resigns. Whistleblower says, officials tried to change intel reports to match Trump rhetoric. Trump tells Fox News he will put down riots on election night. Dr. Fauci says, I disagree with Trump's assessment of pandemic. Fauci says, won't be back to a degree of normality until end of 2021.

Transcript

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: And I hope to see you back here Monday night, 6:00 P.M. Eastern, as always.

Right now, it's THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: 19 years ago today, planes crashed into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon, and into a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania. 2,977 Americans died on this day. And six months now into a global pandemic, the names of those dead normally read aloud were instead heard on an audio recording.

Vice President Joe Biden, who paused campaigning for the day, visited the New York 9/11 Memorial where he and the current vice president had a rare moment of unity, greeting each other, and their wives did the same.

Donald Trump marked the occasion but continued his day largely as if it were business as usual.

Now, as we grieve the lost souls of 9/11, we continue to grapple with the devastating impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. To date, 193,000 Americans have died.

The anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks and pandemic remind us that there are moments when presidents are called upon to lead this nation through trying times. Some have done it better than others. And at this time, the current president, Donald Trump, has by every conceivable measure been an utter failure, full stop, when it comes to protecting Americans and leading during times of crisis.

Now, this week, we learned that Trump admitted to playing down the threat of the virus even though he knew it was deadly. As we were learning about that, a new whistleblower revealed to Congress that he was urged to manipulate foreign intelligence reports to conform with Trump's political agenda, which has now triggered investigations in both the House and the Republican-led Senate.

And then this afternoon, the Hartford Courant broke explosive news that a top prosecutor working on the probe investigating the investigation into Donald Trump, his campaign and his ties to Russia, has resigned, partly out of concern that the team is being pressed by the attorney general to deliver a report before the November election for nakedly partisan political reasons.

And the Department of Justice confirmed that federal prosecutor Nora Dannehy, a top aide to U.S. Attorney General John Durham, has quietly resigned. They would not say why. Durham was tasked by Attorney General Barr in May of last year to examine the origins of the Russia investigation, because Trump demanded such an investigation.

If this new report is true, this is yet another deeply disturbing example in a long line of examples of how far Barr is willing to go to bend the wheel of the justice system away from justice and toward Donald Trump.

For more, I'm joined by Elizabeth Neumann, former Assistant Secretary for Threat Prevention and Security Policy at the Department of Homeland Security in the Trump administration, who resigned after she could no longer support the president. Glenn Kirschner, former federal prosecutor, and in a moment, I'll be speaking with Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Vice Provost of Global Initiatives at the University of Pennsylvania and a former Obama White House Policy Adviser.

But, Glenn, I want to go to you first. This story that just broke today about Ms. Dannehy, who did work for John Durham, she joined the attorney's office in 1991, she served for quite a long time. She informed her colleagues in New York on Thursday evening by email that she was going to resign, and current colleagues said that she's not a supporter of Donald Trump, but she's been concerned that she believed there was pressure coming from Bill Barr to produce these results.

It's pretty clear why Donald Trump would want that. How significant is it that someone was willing to step up and resign, and are you concerned that at this point, the justice system has been so gutted and turned so political that it's no longer effectively a department of justice?

GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, it's Bill Barr's department of injustice, but we're going to get it back beginning in January. But here is my take on the Dannehy resignation. First of all, good for her, if she's standing up and walking away from something that is about to come to fruition, it seems, she must have a darn good reason.

And it sure sounds like that reason that is being reported that Bill Barr is pushing the Durham team to issue an interim report before one is ready, there are two enormous problems with what Bill Barr is doing, Joy. The first is prosecutors don't issue reports. It's not what we do. I was a federal prosecutor for 30 years and I never once issued a report. What I did was I indicted cases in the grand jury, and if the grand jury indicted somebody, we could release publicly the indictment. That's it.

Now, I know our frame of reference is a little bit skewed because we say, well, Mueller released a report but Mueller was a special counsel. He was investigating contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russians, and, boy, did he find some, and that's why he issued a report. He wasn't acting as a traditional prosecutor.

But here is the other thing, Joy. The attorney general should be doing one thing and one thing only. He should be telling the Durham team, in the event you are about to return an indictment, issue a report or make any public statement, don't do it because the Department of Justice guidelines, traditions and norms say you do not say anything within 60 days of an election that could impact public opinion.

So it looks like Bill Barr is doing the exact opposite of what everybody who worked at the Justice Department knows he should be doing.

REID: And, you know, you have this coming at a time when you've got a former federal judge who was brought in to argue against the termination of Michael Flynn's trial, said that Barr's request to drop the case -- he called it corrupt and politically motivated favor -- unworthy of our justice system. So Barr is intervening all over the place. You've also got this new whistleblower information that, you know, intelligence is being manipulated as well.

But just really quickly, to stay with you for a second, Glenn, on this second piece about William Barr, because it does feel like he's trying to create, a quote, October surprise to help Donald Trump in the election.

KIRSCHNER: Yes. What I would say to everybody, Joy, is brace yourself for whatever Barr is about to say about Durham's work, because what we know is that a federal court judge who was not once, not twice but thrice -- a word I don't often use -- appointed by Republican presidents, Judge Reggie Walton said Barr mischaracterized the Mueller report, spun the Mueller report and Bill Barr lacks candor. Those are quotes from Judge Reggie Walton.

You know whatever John Durham is doing or not doing, Bill Barr will step to the cameras and step to the microphone and he will mislead the American people, he will mischaracterize anything Durham happened to find. So I think we should all brace for that and be prepared to disbelieve Bill Barr.

REID: Yes. And, Elizabeth, I'm sure that you can relate to the position that Ms. Dannehy is in. You were in a position as well where you felt uncomfortable continuing to work for this president. And in your case, you have made specific allegations about Donald Trump promoting and at least making room foreign (ph) space for white nationalism. We're now also hearing whistleblowers say, they're also manipulating intelligence and making it -- to make it look like the white nationalist threat is less important than this Antifa phantom that they are still chasing.

Are you concerned -- I mean, this is the anniversary of 9/11. If intelligence can't be trusted for the maintenance of domestic security, we're in trouble. Are you concerned that we can no longer trust the domestic intelligence that's coming out because it's now being politically manipulated?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER DHS ASSISTANT SECRETARY: I'm extremely concerned if the accusations are true. It is a blatant violation of law, of all of the norms that we practice. It is not something I have firsthand knowledge of. I did not see that happen in the three years that I served.

But it's consistent, right? It's consistent with what we have seen the last six to eight months, this ratcheting up of politicization of institutions. We saw the I.C. stopped -- sorry -- the intelligence community stopped briefing Congress in person, and they're just giving them written reports because they don't want to get the questions that might lead to a briefer having to acknowledge that Russia is the greater threat as compared to China and Iran in election interference.

But I do want to say one thing that the intelligence reports that are referenced in that whistleblower report are products out of our intelligence analysis agency that go to our state and local partners. And I don't want to say those aren't important. They are, but the real work of securing our elections is coming out of our cyber security agency called CySA, and that work is going very, very well.

There are good men and women in the intelligence community, in the cyber security agency that are -- have been working around the clock since 2016 to try to make sure that we are protected this year so the 2020 campaign would be secured. And there is good news coming from those agencies that they're doing a good job.

REID: And I think, hopefully, you'll understand why some of us are skeptical because, you know, I'm still old enough to remember Dick Cheney bullying our intelligence agencies to try to get cooked books, you know, a pretext to go to war in Iraq, and he was successful at that. And that bullying can wear in on these agencies even with great professionals there.

You know, when the administration is putting pressure, then they're saying, this is what -- we're the client and this is what we want, people give in. And I think for a good reason, you know, with that Dick Cheney-esque situation is now seen inside the president of the United States again, so it's like a rerun.

But I want to play you a piece of very strange video. This is Donald Trump speaking with his friend, Jeanine Pirro. Somebody get the phone. Somebody get your call. It's weird, but I want you to listen to it and I have a question for you. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: What are you going to do -- let's say there are threats. They say that they're going to threaten riots if they lose on election night assuming we get a winner on election night. What are you going to do?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll put them down very quickly if they do that. We have the right to do that. We have the power to do that if we want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: It sounds like he's making threats to the public, violent sounding threats coming from the head of the executive branch of government. Your thoughts, Elizabeth.

NEUMANN: You know, I would normally say oh, he's just bluffing, but we saw what happened at Lafayette Square. We saw what happened in Portland, where you had federal law enforcement officers go into a city without the permission of state and local government, which many, many lawyers, I'm not one of them, but they read that as a violation of law and a violation of the Constitution.

So I am concerned that he is even considering that because it sends a message to his political hacks and in places like the Department of Justice and in the Department of Homeland Security to come up with these plans. And I hope that cooler heads will prevail, that there are still a few adults left in the room to advise you can't do that.

Now, we should empower and encourage our state and local law enforcement officials, governors and mayors to be prepared if there is civil unrest. There is a lot of tension in our country. It is a very real possibility that we could see civil unrest. And if policing is done correctly, it can hopefully prevent any violence breaking out. But we do not need to use the Insurrection Act on the night of the election. That is horrible, horrible precedent to set.

REID: Yes, indeed. Let me bring in Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, because there's this other threat, the thing people are really afraid of. They're not afraid of Black Lives Matter. They're afraid of COVID but for good reason.

I want to play for you Dr. Anthony Fauci, the one person, I think, that most Americans trust when it comes to this pandemic. He spoke to our own Andrea Mitchell about this concept Trump is throwing out that we are turning the corner on COVID. Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREA MITCHELL, MSNBC HOST: You said it was time to hunker down because the fall and winter is, quote, not going to be easy. The president says we've rounded the final turn. How do you square those two messages?

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, you know, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that, because if you look at the thing that you just mentioned, the statistics, Andrea, they are disturbing. You know, we're plateauing at around 40,000 cases a day, and the deaths are around 1,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: I mean, he also said that we're probably looking at a timeline of having something like a normal life not until the end of 2021 potentially. Maybe we're talking about an entire additional lost year. What do you make of that disconnect between the president of the United States and his own top adviser on the pandemic?

DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL, VICE PROVOST FOR GLOBAL INITIATIVES, UNVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Oh, there's someone looking at the facts and telling you the facts, and Tony Fauci is 100 percent right. If you look yesterday, we had 38,000 new cases of coronavirus infection, and we had 915 deaths. That is not anything to be proud of. We should be down under 10,000 new cases a day, and we need to see the number of deaths going down.

Just to put that in context, every week, we have two 9/11s. We have roughly 7,000 people dying every week. That's twice the number of people who died in 9/11. I have been saying since March, we won't get out of this, we won't have a chance of returning to normalcy until November 2021. If you just play out even if we get a vaccine by yearend, just play out people needing two doses, production, distribution, you're not getting there until the end of the year.

So nothing Tony Fauci said departs from the facts one iota. It's the president who has a total fantasy. I mean, he is just in his own world which bears no relationship to reality.

REID: Very quickly, Dr. Emanuel, is there something that Joe Biden could do to move that timeline up should he become president?

EMANUEL: Well, he can do it effectively. If we have a vaccine distributed effectively, get the people who know how to solve problems, understand logistics, understand where the potential bottlenecks are to distribute a vaccine and get the country ready.

I mean, the truth of the matter is, Joy, that, really, you needed to start in March thinking about this problem, getting enough glass vials, getting enough fill finish capacity, getting enough syringes and needles and making sure we have enough people to vaccinate 300 million Americans.

That's a tall order. That's a major management problem, and there's though evidence this president has gotten his arms around it, and every piece of evidence that he's ill-prepared and made the country ever more precarious.

REID: Yes. Meanwhile, he's out there bragging about getting along great with the Taliban, who are the ones who were getting the bounties from the Russians to kill our troops. And he still hasn't said anything about that either. Yep, 9/11 anniversary.

Thank you so much, Elizabeth Neumann, Glenn Kirschner, as well as Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. Thank you all very much.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, who is going to tell him?

Seriously, Fortunate Son, the song about the millionaires' kids who avoided combat in Vietnam, that is Trump's introductory music at his super-spreader rally in Michigan last night?

And as he fails to define Joe Biden, Trump is instead attacking Biden's running mate. The chief of staff to vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris joins me next.

Plus, those historic terrifying, western fire and the alarming lack of action or even empathy from the man who is still president even if he doesn't act like it.

Back with more of THE REIDOUT after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Guys, I'm not going to be making any news today. I'm not going to talk about anything other than 9/11.

We took all our advertising down. It's a solemn day. And that's how we're going to keep it, OK? You can determine whether I make news, but I'm not going to be holding a press conference, all right?

It's a solemn day. We took all of our advertising down, and get back to the campaign tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Today, Joe Biden took a pause from his campaign to honor those who perished on 9/11.

And joining me now is Karine Jean-Pierre, senior adviser to the Biden campaign and chief of staff to vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris.

I always feel happy whenever I say that, because I'm so proud.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, BIDEN CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Aww.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: So, let's talk about this, because...

JEAN-PIERRE: Thanks, sis.

REID: Well -- and it's great to see you. And I know you guys have been very busy.

We have seen all of these stepping off of the plane, including in those Chuck Taylors.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: So, I know that the senator is getting her Chuck Taylors well-worn.

JEAN-PIERRE: And the marching bands -- did you see marching bands yesterday?

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Oh, you got to send me that clip. I missed that one. I don't know how I missed that.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: But let's talk about this, because -- so, you have this -- you have this incredible contrast, right...

JEAN-PIERRE: Yes.

REID: ... between former Vice President Biden and Senator Harris really taking this thing seriously and taking this situation seriously...

JEAN-PIERRE: Yes.

REID: ... that we're seeing, not just the solemnity of 9/11, but this COVID crisis, which is still the thing that's just beating Americans down economically and health-wise.

And I will play you, which you will be very familiar with -- this is what Senator Harris said. And this was on Thursday in Miami.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: In February and January, he had all this information. Yet he held rallies. He suggested that to wear a mask is a sign of weakness, as opposed to a sign of strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: I'm curious, particularly in a state like Florida, which is such a state that swings, such a swingy state, are -- is the senator hearing from, is the campaign hearing from people who say, oh, my God, I feel misled personally?

JEAN-PIERRE: Well, let me step back for a second and just talk about the Woodward book for a second and about the revelation of that -- of what we learned in the tapes.

Look, it's exactly what Joe Biden had made clear, which is, he knew. The vice -- the president of the United States knew. Donald Trump knew that this virus was deadly. He knew that this virus was airborne. He knew that this was worse than the flu, the virus was worse than the flu.

And yet, day after day after day, he lied to the American public. He lied about a virus that was killing our families, our friends, our neighbors. He lied about a virus that was devastating our economy.

I mean, this is disqualifying, Joy. And here's the thing about this. And you're asking me what the American people -- what people are saying out there, what voters are saying. But here's the thing, what he is saying, right?

This is not fake news. This is not conspiracy theories. This is not anonymous sources. These are the words of the president of the United States, who lied, after knowing exactly how deadly coronavirus was. And he still hasn't done anything.

Joy, yesterday more than 1,000 people died of coronavirus. What has Donald Trump done the last 24 hours to stop this crisis?

REID: Yes.

JEAN-PIERRE: He's done absolutely nothing.

So, if you look at the next 50 days, this is what Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are going to do. They are going to make sure that they put the contrast between Donald Trump and themselves and make sure that they set that message to the American people.

And that's what we have to do. We have just a little bit more than 50 days, and we have to make clear to the American people, every -- people in this country are suffering. They're suffering. And we see that day after day after day.

And so that's what our campaign is talking about. How do we really lean in and show our leadership, show that contrast? And what is it that we're going to do for the American people on day one? And that's what Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are talking about.

REID: And the terrific producer who put this segment together pointed out that there is a plan that I know the campaign is rolling out.

It's sort of a Cabinet in waiting on the coronavirus pandemic, with some major figures from the Obama, Clinton, Bush senior administrations that are drafting and distributing vaccine -- a plan to distribute vaccines and personal protective gear, to ramp up testing, reopening schools and addressing health care disparities.

So, that is an important piece of it. But, to get there, to get in, there has to also be a victory in November.

Is -- for instance, is the campaign going to use Donald Trump's words from what he said to Bob Woodward? Are we going to see ads with his voice in them coming from the campaign?

JEAN-PIERRE: Yes, we have been very, very, I think, clear about going up on air, using ads, making that contrast, being really clear, using Donald Trump's own words, because they have to -- I think it's important for the American public to continue to hear that from him, and making that contrast, as I just said.

Look, you started off this segment talking about how Donald Trump has attacked Kamala Harris and his team has attacked Joe Biden. Here's the thing that we have to remember, Joy.

Joe Biden is everything that Donald Trump is not. He is about leadership. He understands the value of empathy, the value of honor, the value of truth. And that is the contrast that we have to keep showing.

And if you think about it, as you were saying, all of the attacks on Joe Biden and Kamala Harris do not stick. They don't stick. The lies don't stick.

So, now, as you were saying as well, they're attacking Kamala Harris. Guess what? That's not going to stick either, because she is everything that Donald Trump is not. She is someone that has fought for the people her entire life. And so this is what we're going to continue to do. We're going to continue have her back. We're going to continue to have the American people's back, and we're going to continue to go out there and earn, earn every vote.

And that's what you have been seeing from this campaign, especially since the convention, when the -- with the ticket of Biden and Harris.

REID: Well, I think, if there's a such thing as popcorn stocks, they're going to go way, way up with these debates between Senator Harris and Mike Pence and also, of course, Joe Biden vs. Donald Trump.

Buy your popcorn stocks now. Get them while they're cheap.

Thank you so much, Karine Jean-Pierre. Really appreciate it. Happy travels and safe travels.

And coming up next, Oregon Governor Kate Brown joins me on the devastating wildfires that are ravaging her state and the radio silence from the White House about this disaster.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Among the stew of crises afflicting the country right now, one hasn't gotten a lot of the public attention from Donald Trump, the unprecedented and deadly wildfires raging cross the West that have consumed millions of acres in California, Oregon and Washington.

California firefighters continue to battle one just north of Sacramento that is now the largest fire -- wildfire in state history. Millions of Americans living amid the state's 29 major wildfires have been living under the eerie orange and blood red skies there.

Millions -- meanwhile, in Oregon, the fires have scorched more than one million acres, twice the state's average for an entire year. The number of people ordered to evacuate statewide because of fires rose to an estimated 500,000, more than 10 percent of Oregon's population.

And scientists are already sounding the alarm loudly about the link between the fires and climate change and warning that the unprecedented fires are a sign of what's yet to come.

Yesterday, Donald Trump approved emergency disaster funding for Oregon, a day after Governor Kate Brown made a formal request. But he's remained conspicuously silent in his public comments or tweets about the fires that are devastating the West, including bearing down on the suburbs of Portland, a city Trump has had lots of scare-mongering thoughts about in recent weeks.

And joining me now is Oregon's Governor Kate Brown.

Governor Brown, first, all of our thoughts are with your state today.

And it is a reckoning. Right? This is climate change in real life. Tell us what's happening on the ground and what kind of help, if any, are you getting from Donald Trump, other than telling you to sweep the forest floors?

GOV. KATE BROWN (D-OR): There's absolutely no question this is an unprecedented firestorm.

We had incredible winds, on top of extremely difficult fire conditions, on top of a landscape that's seen 30 years of drought. So, obviously, the table was set via climate change in this state and the Pacific Northwest.

Just to give you a perspective -- and we have had over a million acres burn in the last four days. That is double the yearly average. It is extremely challenging for our firefighters. Fires are moving at a very difficult speed, and our goal right now is simply to save lives and save property where possible.

REID: Yes.

And what would need to change in terms of the federal -- the federal action on climate change? There's been none, obviously, over the past four years. But let's say -- what could we be doing going forward to try to make this less likely to happen, in your view?

BROWN: There's absolutely no question that climate change is impacting our lives and our livelihoods in the West, all over the United States and all over the world.

I took action via executive order to continue the work to reduce carbon emissions in this state, to engage the increase of renewable energy, and to impact Oregonians' actions to reduce climate change.

REID: Right.

BROWN: That action, I took several months ago.

But I do think this is going to take a collective effort. It's going to take our local government, our state government and our federal government all working together.

REID: Yes.

BROWN: Otherwise, this is going to become the new normal.

REID: Yes.

I mean, and I hate to keep bringing up the president, but I mean, he's been tweeting a lot about Portland. He's been tweeting a lot about Portland and trying to make it sound like -- quote, unquote -- "Portland was on fire" because of Black Lives Matter.

But now those fires literally are bearing down on Portland. And I wonder if you have received robust help from the Trump administration. Is he -- he isn't tweeting about Portland anymore, not about the fires.

We have seen the governor of California come out and be very praiseful of the president, which, apparently, is the only way you can get help from him if you're in a state, particularly a blue state.

Have you gotten the kind of help you need from the federal government, from his administration?

BROWN: The president approved our request for emergency declaration last night at about 6:00, Oregon time.

We have asked for additional resources, including additional National Guard troops, including the Department of Defense active military battalion that are trained in firefighting.

My focus -- our firefighters are on the ground. My focus is to make sure that they have the tools and the people power that they need. I am expecting federal resources to arrive over the next few days.

REID: We have also heard some reports from Douglas County, your sheriff's office, that people are sending in fake Antifa threats and clogging up 911 with that.

Is that still a problem?

BROWN: I believe that situation has been resolved.

As law enforcement said, that information was absolutely false. And we encourage Oregonians, frankly, Americans, to get accurate information on local emergencies through their county local emergency Web site.

REID: Yes, indeed. That is excellent advice.

Oregon Governor Kate Brown, God bless you all. Good luck out there. Thank you so much for being here tonight.

BROWN: Thank you.

REID: And still ahead, to understand what Donald Trump -- cheers.

To understand what Donald Trump is truly capable of, you need only look at his past remarks at the events surrounding 9/11.

More to come on THE REIDOUT. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Just stick with us. Don't believe the crap you see from these people, the fake news.

Just remember, what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Welcome back.

Well, the year may be 2020, but, in Donald Trump's America, we could be living in George Orwell's "1984."

Trump calls the media fake news, then lies profusely about everything. He calls anonymous sources made up, even though he was literally notorious for being one himself, even using phony aliases when talking to reporters.

This week, after we heard Trump's own voice record by Bob Woodward, Trump has tried to tell us what we heard him say was somehow fake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I was very open, whether it's to Woodward or anybody else. It's just another political hit job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Joining me now is Tony Schwartz, co-author of Trump's "The Art of the Deal."

And Tony is out with a new Audible original called "Dealing With the Devil: My Mother, Trump and Me."

And I have read it and it's quite good.

And, Tony, you write in this book -- quote -- "More than anyone I had ever met, Trump has the ability to convince himself that whatever he was saying at any given moment was true or sort of true or at least ought to be true. The truth didn't really matter to Trump. Lying was second nature to him, just one more way to gain advantage. Facts were whatever he deemed them to be at any given day. Whenever he was challenged, Trump simply doubled down on what he had said he claimed, even if it was demonstrably false."

This feels especially relevant now that Donald Trump is literally trying to say that it's fake news what we literally heard recordings of him say to Bob Woodward.

What do you make of that?

TONY SCHWARTZ, CO-AUTHOR, "TRUMP: THE ART OF THE DEAL": Well, it's more of the same from Trump.

And I think the power of a Woodward book is Woodward, because he's such an iconic reporter. But the -- what we're learning and what we learn about Trump from the book itself is something we have known all along. You can't -- unless you were hiding under a rock, you knew that Trump was a man who either was in delusion, which would explain why he was saying something that wasn't true, or in grandiosity, where he had lost touch with the truth.

And he swings between these. And, right now, I would say he's more in delusion than grandiosity, because there's nothing to be grandiose about right now. His presidency is in almost as mortal danger as the country itself is.

REID: Yes, it's hard to imagine being a bigger failure.

Another little clip in here that I thought was particularly coherent for this today or cogent for today, you write: "Trump's insecurity felt palpable to me." And this is -- you interviewed him for his first book that you basically did all the work for.

"Felt palpable to me in every moment that I spent with him. He was the equivalent of a balloon with a tiny pinprick in it. All day, he leaked self-esteem and kept trying to blow -- he kept trying to blow it back up, blow back up his leaky balloon with achievements, real and imagined. The more time I spent with Trump, the more despair I felt at having given -- having taken on the book in the first place."

Essentially, do you -- did you come to believe, after dealing with him, and with all of your experience as a reporter, which is what we learn in this book, of all the different characters that you have dealt with and interviewed, and even your own family, that Donald Trump's core problem is that he just feels unworthy and insecure?

Is that -- that is what the core is here?

SCHWARTZ: You know, Joy, I think that's actually the core problem for most human beings.

How many people feel good enough? And how many people are insecure? It's so vast. And I think Trump was -- had a brutal father and he had a negligent mother. And I could relate to that, because I had a brutal mother and a negligent father.

And my own hunger, which I write about in this book, to prove myself in the world as a substitute for what I wasn't feeling at home, in terms of love and appreciation, was vast.

Trump's was even vaster. He just -- he is -- and I know it's hard to feel any sympathy or compassion for him, and I'm not suggesting that, given the damage he's caused. But we need to understand that he is the product of his childhood. There is no question about that.

REID: Yes.

I want to play a montage for you, because it is the 19th anniversary of 9/11. Let me just play it very quickly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O'REILLY, FORMER HOST, "THE O'REILLY FACTOR": Is there a Muslim problem in the world?

TRUMP: Absolutely. Absolutely.

I mean, I don't notice Swedish people knocking down the World Trade Center.

I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down. And I watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down.

I was down there, and I watched our police and our firemen down on 7-Eleven, down at the World Trade Center.

Everyone who helped clear the rubble, and I was there, and I watched, and I helped a little bit.

I was down there also, but I'm not considering myself a first responder. But I was down there. I spent a lot of time down there with you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: All lies.

What kind of a man lies about 9/11?

SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, it's interesting.

I, with great regret and shame, am part of creating the myth of Trump before there really was a Trump. But Trump came out of that experience of "The Art of the Deal" and has spent the subsequent 30, 35 years inventing a version of himself that he wished he could be.

It was a fantasy. He is the ultimate example of fake news.

I came out of that ashamed, and my attitude toward the truth was, it had the power to set me free, that, if I was willing to really reckon with what had prompted me to do that book, and with who I could become, if I could accept all of who I am, both the good and the bad, that I would no longer have so much -- spend so much energy defending myself or proving myself, and would be free to add value in the world.

That never happened to Trump...

REID: Yes.

SCHWARTZ: ... because he kept himself so far from anything true.

REID: Yes.

Tony Schwartz, my friend, congratulations on the book. It's called "Dealing With the Devil: My Mother, Trump and Me."

I highly recommend everyone check it out.

Thank you so much. Have a great weekend. Thank you for spending some time with us tonight.

And, meanwhile, up next on THE REIDOUT: Tamron Hall. It's friend night.

Tamron Hall joins me to talk about the rise and fall of Florida politician Andrew Gillum and her -- and an interview with him that she calls heartbreaking.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: In 2018, in two very big gubernatorial elections in the South, two black candidates, Stacey Abrams of Georgia and Andrew Gillum of Florida, were both defeated by razor-thin margins.

And for Gillum, who was seen as the biggest rising star in Florida politics in decades, the aftermath led him down a dark path, then ultimately to rehab and therapy.

Tamron Hall sat down with him in his first interview since his difficult exit from the public stage and the night, according to police reports, that he was found intoxicated on the floor of a Miami Beach hotel room. Two other men were in the room, one suspected of having overdosed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW GILLUM (D), FORMER FLORIDA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: When that photo came out, I didn't recognize the person on the floor.

That was not anything more than a person being at their most vulnerable state, unconscious, having been given no consent, and someone decided to use a moment where I was literally lying in my own vomit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Joining me now is Emmy Award-winning talk show host and my friend Tamron Hall.

Tamron, it is so great to see you. Thank you so much for being here tonight.

And I cannot wait to see this interview. I know Andrew. He is a wonderful person. I think everyone in Florida who knew him as Tallahassee mayor knows that.

But what happened was so shocking to everyone. You interviewed him. You call this interview heartbreaking. Why?

TAMRON HALL, HOST, "THE TAMRON HALL SHOW": It's heartbreaking because I interview not only Andrew, but his wife, R. Jai.

At one point in time, she sat alone with me, revealing things that he didn't even know.

Listen, we call this a fall from grace, and we have seen this many, many times. But Andrew's story is one of the most compelling ones that I have ever heard.

I will be honest with you, Joy. We flew in the dark of the night to Florida, because I didn't want anybody to know. I didn't want it to be compromised.

He comes to me with his full, raw and honest story. You know me. You have known me for a decade. You know, when I ask a question, I expect an answer. And he gives me the answer I think is respectful. And I also think that he is looking for the grace that we so often give others, but black men don't see.

So, he comes at this at many angle.

REID: Yes.

HALL: And he admits -- in fact, his wife called him reckless, what he did that night.

But I think it is one of the most compelling interviews that I have ever done.

REID: And, you know, does he disclose how he wound up in that situation? Are these people he knew? I think that's what people are so curious about. How could someone so prominent and seemingly so put -- so together wind up on that floor?

HALL: I think that's what's compelling.

Listen, we live in a world, Joy, you know, of Instagram filters. People go through 90 filters to present the life that they think others want to see. And I think Andrew would say he got trapped in that as well.

If he had disclosed things about his life, would he have been the first black person on the edge of becoming the governor of Florida? We use these titles and descriptors of people to disqualify them.

I'm actually giving you far more, because we are friends, than I have said about this interview to anyone.

(LAUGHTER)

HALL: But I assure you that Andrew Gillum comes with his full story.

His wife also is not lost in this. She said to me: "I want to own my story."

She reads and sees what people are saying on social media.

REID: Yes.

HALL: So, this is not about an apology tour. This is not about victimization. This is not about me doing a favor for a friend, because he is not my friend, contrary to what everyone believes, that we all know each other. We don't.

I know you.

REID: Yes.

HALL: I know that I am capable of answering or asking any solid question, and he answered those.

REID: Yes.

And I guess the big question is, because he has such raw political talent, does he feel like he can come back? Is this the first step toward him stepping back into the public arena?

HALL: You know, politics is like TV. It's an addiction for some people.

Who would have ever thought I'd be on MSNBC? I knew you would be the host of a 7:00 p.m. show, because you bring it all. And, yes, I rehearsed that line.

(LAUGHTER)

HALL: But I will tell you what.

I think that, for him...

(LAUGHTER)

HALL: You know me.

I think that, for him...

REID: Yes.

HALL: ... it's in the cards. It's how he handles it.

Eliot Spitzer ended up a cable news host. Stranger things have happened in politics. But the onus is on him and the voters of Florida. Can he present himself in the way that he believes is his destiny, if that is the case?

So, honestly, I don't know. I think there's a siren call that he wants to answer.

REID: Yes.

HALL: But he has so many other things, so many serious things, like rehab, like amending his relationship with his wife, like being the father to three his children...

REID: Yes.

HALL: ... that are far more important, in my opinion, than a political life.

REID: Yes.

HALL: We will see.

And, again, I can't say enough. It's just -- it's incredible.

REID: I cannot wait to see this interview.

Tamron Hall, the show is fantastic. Tamron Hall's interview with Andrew Gillum airs on Monday on "The Tamron Hall Show."

We will all be watching.

Thank you, sister. Appreciate your being here.

And THE REIDOUT will be back.

(CROSSTALK)

HALL: Well, congratulations to you again.

I could not be more proud of you, Joy Reid. You are amazing.

REID: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my friend. Have a great weekend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: This Sunday, I will be hosting a special with my friend Andrew Zimmern. It's called "Food and the Pandemic."

We will explore the food-related crises unfolding for Americans during this pandemic. It's a powerful hour. And I hope you will tune in.

"Food and the Pandemic" airs this Sunday on MSNBC at 11:00 p.m. Eastern.

And that's tonight's REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

Content and programming copyright 2020 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.