Summary
Democracy is winning in 2020 as 14 million Americans have already voted. Trump campaign is focusing on states he won easily in 2016. Videos from conservative conference reveal fears and goals. New poll shows Democratic Warnock with solid lead in Georgia special Senate election. New poll shows Democrat leading by four points in North Carolina Senate race. The Trump campaign, otherwise known as the COVID misinformation tour, marches right along with Trump stumping at a super-spreader rally right now in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, fresh off a COVID diagnosis. Trump is using his own illness to further wage his war against coronavirus health restrictions, sending his flunkies out to escalate his lies.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Thanks as always for watching THE BEAT with Ari Melber. We'll be back with you at 6:00 P.M. eastern tomorrow. But right now it's "THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: All right. Good evening, everybody.
OK, so we do a lot of bad news on this show, a lot. A lot of discussion on just how weird and (INAUDIBLE) and abnormal and ugly that things have gotten in this country over the past four years, starting with a Russia assist to Trump in the election and on through the Muslim ban, the caged and stolen migrant kids, the pandemic mishandling with more than 216,000 dead and 7 million infected, including the president himself and half his team. Voter disenfranchisement and intimidation and white nationalists just fired up with presidential backing.
But tonight, I can happily report to you some good news, news that despite all of that, democracy is winning. With less than three weeks until the day we start counting the votes, Americans are out in force. They're angry and determined and voting in record numbers. They are literally saving our democracy one vote at a time. Just look at these long lines across the country, including in Georgia and Texas and Tennessee.
And people are voting like gangbusters, even while Donald Trump and his Republican minions are fighting democracy at every turn. Trump flunkies like Senator Mike Lee of Utah are on Twitter screaming, democracy is bad, and Lindsey Graham is crying on T.V. that his opponent is getting more donations. And Trump's campaign is fighting tooth and nail in court to stop all of this terrible voting, to stop you. And they're losing there too.
The Trump campaign got smacked down by courts in the key state of Pennsylvania recently over their challenges to mail-in- voting and ballot drop boxes. And in Texas, a judge dismissed Republican efforts to stop drive-through voting, which is meant to keep voters safe during the pandemic, even as a federal appeals judge upheld the governor's order to limit those ballot drop boxes.
Americans are fighting back in an earth-shattering fashion, smashing 2016 records. So far, more than 14 million Americans have already voted. In Texas on the first day of early voting yesterday, more than 1 million people cast ballots despite Republicans doing everything they can to stop them.
And as for Donald Trump, he appears to have moved past normal campaigning, straight to self-soothing. Here he is dancing it up on stage to the Village People at a rally in Sanford, Florida. Not exactly a place where he can find new votes, but where he can get crowds who are willing to risk catching COVID just to make him feel good.
The goofy dancing aside, there's real evidence that the Trump campaign fully understands that as of today, 20 days out, they are losing this election. And that at this point, all the campaign is doing is trying to stop the bleeding and limit the volume by which Trump will lose the popular vote.
Last night, Trump was in ruby-red western Pennsylvania. Tonight he's in Iowa, a state he won easily in 2016. And tomorrow, he's in North Carolina, another state he won. And Friday, he has another event in Florida and one in Georgia.
Why would an incumbent be campaigning in places that he won in the last election this close to vote count day? Well, because polls show some of these states -- in some of these states the Trump campaign that they thought had in the bag, they're just bleeding. And the blood is getting all over down-ticket Republicans.
New Quinnipiac University polls out today show, Trump's is losing in Ohio by one point, within the margin of error, and trailing Joe Biden in Georgia, yes, Georgia outside the margin of error, by seven. The same polls show Trump's problems are also hurting Republicans' chances of holding the two Senate seats that are up for grabs in the Peach State.
Meanwhile, a New York Times poll of North Carolina shows Trump losing to Biden by four points. Trump has been reduced to begging, Keith Sweat-style, tweeting for support in blue states he can't possibly win, like New York and California, and insulting them in the process. But states where his campaign would sure like to limit Joe Biden's popular vote count if they possibly can.
And last night Trump, please, baby, please suburban women in Pennsylvania, begging them, please, don't abandon me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I ask you do me a favor. Suburban women, will you please like me? Remember, please. Please. I saved your damn neighborhood, okay?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And as Trump panics, he's actually just making things worse for himself. He somehow thought it was a good idea to send out a tweet mocking Biden's age, even though Biden is just a few years older than Trump is. And in the process he mocked people who live in nursing homes.
Note to Trump, dude, you're already losing seniors. And they may not be able to dance to YMCA on command, even though as I told my octogenarian Auntie Bernice on her birthday yesterday, dancing in your chair counts. Seniors vote.
Joining me now is Neera Tanden, President and CEO of the Center for American Progress and a former Senior Adviser to President Obama, Jelani Cobb, Staff Writer of The New Yorker, and Charlie Sykes, Editor-at-Large for the Bulwark. Thank you all for being here.
Neera, I'm going to go to you first, because you know campaigns. You have seen these inside and out. When I see Donald Trump in Sanford and not in Miami-Dade County, not Broward County, not in Hillsborough County, in Tampa the largest media market, I say, he's trying to limit the losses. If he's in Ohio and he's in Western Pennsylvania, not Philly, that -- just as somebody who has worked in campaigns just a little teeny bit, that tells me that they're just trying to limit the popular vote damage. Are you seeing something different than what I'm seeing?
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: Well, I do think he's always been a person who has reached out to his base. He's -- one of his big challenges is he has never reached out to people who didn't vote for him.
But I think it's even more telling that he's campaigning in Georgia and Iowa. I mean, these are states he won by a considerable amount four years ago. Iowa, he won by nine points, Ohio, nine points. He's campaigning in states that he had close to double-digit leads in and, you know, four years ago, which means he has seen a considerable evaporation of support to Joe Biden in states that he expected to win.
And I'll just say, you know, I think his whole strategy has really backfired. He's wanted to make voting so difficult for everybody that people have gotten around it, and they're voting early to overcome his suppression, in large numbers. I think his strategy has just really backfired.
REID: You know -- and, you know, Jelani, I would have posted a Ronald Martin clip that he has on his Instagram but he had music on it, so you probably can't get that clear, but, I mean, he showed a line of people that was just on and on and on. He almost got through the whole song. You know, I have friends that are sending me similar pictures out of Georgia, out of all over the country.
I mean, you have The Washington Post reporting that their closed-door sessions of leading Republicans telling their activists be not afraid of accusations that you're a voter suppresser. They're saying own it, own voter suppression. If your whole strategy is to suppress the vote, that means you are not getting votes.
And so I see nothing in here except a strategy to limit the size of the popular vote margin and then to try to fight it out in the Electoral College.
JELANI COBB, THE NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER: Sure, that's exactly it, and that's been the strategy. And to Neera's point, when you think back to 2012 in Pennsylvania, there were those same sorts of ideas. We've seen the kind of first inklings of the voter suppression strategy, and what it did was irritate people. And it made people have recollections of what Selma was about and what their aunties and grandparents had been getting hit over the head for.
And so I think that's the same thing that's happening here. People are outraged and incensed. They've gotten the understanding that this is about voter suppression.
And I should add but that's not the only time that we've seen this. We saw Justin Clark, who is the counsel to the president -- to the campaign -- made the same statement, about -- and he had outright said that Republicans have traditionally been the ones suppressing people's votes. And so that's not a new kind of admission.
And there's one last thing that I'll add here too, is that one of the bigger problems is that you can't pull a last-minute surprise move here. The October surprise has limited effect when you have millions of people who have already cast their ballots. And so it makes it that much more difficult for you have a spectacular kind of 12-round knockout that brings you from behind.
REID: Yes. Well, Bill Barr is trying, but even he's like, man, I can't indict Obama. I mean, he -- I mean, the idea that that was going to be the surprise. They're going to arrest Barack Obama. Yes, surprise, you can't -- even Bill Barr isn't that crazy. And he's pretty far down the road.
You have, Charlie -- and this was this Northern Virginia Council for National Policy, with that sort of a weird-sounding name, a guy named Jay Christian Adams, the president's Public Interest Legal Foundation. He's the one who is saying don't worry, don't worry if they say you're a voter suppresser, go on and suppress the votes if you possibly can.
You know Charlie Kirk, I'm not sure a lot of people know who he is that are watching this show, but he's a guy who does a big stumping for right-wing causes on college campuses. He says, on quote, that close campuses, if they're closed for COVID, great, that means college students can't vote. As if that, you know, college students aren't smart enough to figure out they can vote where they come from.
You've got Ginnie Thomas who is also part of that group, by the way, silent Clarence Thomas' Wife. It doesn't look good. You've got Jon Ossoff now over the 50 percent margin in one of the two open Georgia Senate races. In the other races, Raphael Warnock is fighting off three other people. And his at 41 percent versus everyone else being on the 20's or in the, you know, single digits. So you've got one guy, this man who is the leader of Dr. King's church, is now leading in that race. That's Georgia.
You go to the North Carolina race where they've tried to, like, throw dirt on the Democrat, Cal Cunningham, that's running. It doesn't matter. He's running against Thom Tillis, who's a Trump -- you know, he's in Trump's handbag. Nobody cares about whatever they're saying about Cal Cunningham. Tillis is down. You can -- I can go and do this all day.
You know, Charlie, at this point, is there a strategy by which Donald Trump -- because I don't know how you close it if the other person is over 50, because that means all the undecided can come your way and you still lose. What are you seeing out there?
CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: No, I'm seeing the same thing. Donald Trump has been very lucky in the past and his luck has run out. And to the point about the voter -- the reliance on voter suppression, I do think that it is backfiring big time and we saw that in Wisconsin earlier this year, and I think you're seeing it in the massive numbers of people that are turning out right now.
Look, we don't -- the president in the final three weeks of the campaign begging for votes from women, please vote for me, when he's insulting the senior citizens, which is obviously a key thing. But his insulting navy SEALS suggesting that they didn't really kill Osama Bin Laden when he's dodging debates and hiding out in town hall meetings, when he's relying on voter suppression, when he's hoping for some sort of a last-minute October surprise from Bill Barr that not even Bill Barr is willing to give him. When he's also then relying on Russian disinformation laundered through the New York Post. You get a sense of somebody who is just -- who has lost -- who has lost his instinct, who has lost the narrative.
And you had an interesting phrase earlier where you said that the campaign seems to be about sort of self-comforting. And I think that that's right. It's like, make him feel good. Keep him in the bubble. Let him have that dopamine hit. It's almost like they put Donald Trump's campaign in hospice care. Let's just keep him feeling good although you know how it's going to end.
But the freak out among Republicans that I talk to is very real. But here is the problem. Because they know that these voters are coming out and there's going to be down ballot blood -- you know, a bloodbath, but it is way too late for them now to separate themselves from Donald Trump and sort of the horror is dawning on them that, in fact, you know, this decision they made to link themselves with Donald Trump is going to be playing out in the 2020 election.
But a lot of other things can happen. We are three weeks out. And it's not three weeks to Election Day because today is Election Day, and I think you sort of dramatically showed what's happening every single day between now and November 3rd is Election Day and we're kind of seeing, you know, the level of enthusiasm, level of engagement out there.
REID: You know, and, Neera, there is a lot of PTSD. Whenever we do polls, we just hear people saying, don't tell me polls, because look at 2016. I mean, the differences here is, as Charlie said, every day is Election Day and every day is the day people can take out their rage by voting. People are angry. People are scared, as Kamala Harris made the point in that -- these Amy Coney Barrett hearings. And they can't do anything else but vote, right? There's not anything you can do to stop Republicans from sending armed men to try to stop you. All of the stuff they're doing to the Supreme Court, there's a sense of futility.
However, I suspect that the punishment won't end in November, that a lot of these senators who think that they can guard themselves into minority rule by taking over the Supreme Court are about to find out, Marco Rubio, you eventually have to stand up too. All of you are going to have to stand for re-election. This rage might last for years. It might be 2022 as well.
TANDEN: Well, I think if things go as they're going, you're going to see a lot of Republicans in just a few short weeks act like they don't know who Donald Trump is. Who is that guy? I had nothing to do with him? What? Who is he? You know, I think you'll see a lot of Republicans try to revise history.
But I think what we're seeing in the mass turnout is just that people are -- you know, people are not just holding Trump accountable, they're holding Republicans accountable. Senators like Joni Ernst, who never expected a race, is behind. And that is because the whole doing everything Republican -- this president wants and no block on him is what is enraging people.
REID: Yes. And, you know, Jelani, the last minute Hail Mary of Ice Cube is our friend, like, I mean, they're just like, we can get black men interested. Here, here is a rapper who said arrest the president literally a year ago. He likes our plan. I mean, it is rather desperate and I don't -- I don't know anybody who is black who is not already a Trumpist that has any interest in that. Do you?
COBB: No, I don't. But it's been disturbing because, you know, my personal playlist is getting shorter and shorter. You know, Kanye has been dispatched.
REID: Right.
COBB: (INAUDIBLE) somebody, where is this going?
REID: I know.
COBB: I'm really hoping that, like the whole thing --
REID: Jelani, if I --
COBB: I was going to say the --
REID: Listen, I have a whole thing on my phone that is called '90s -- I have a '90s hip-hop entire play list. I can only delete but so much. I need to listen to something. The '90s and 2000s are like going down in flames and I don't appreciate it as a generation Xer at all. We're the generation that brought you hip-hop. And now like, oh, we also own that, okay. Anyway, Neera Tanden, Jelani Cobb -- it's weird -- Charlie Sykes, thank you guys very much. (INAUDIBLE). We love them.
Up next on THE REIDOUT, Joe Biden widens his already substantial lead over Donald Trump. And it's not just that people want to throw the bums out, which they do, Biden is actually running a very effective campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My build back better plan is going to create 18.6 million jobs in four years and it's going to create 7 million more jobs than the president's economic plan and $1 trillion more in economic growth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Plus, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer joins me on that and the frightening kidnapping plot against her.
Plus, Oomarosa Manigault Newman and Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, both caught in the crossfire as Trump uses the DOJ to go after his perceived enemies. Both of them join me live.
Back with more of THE REIDOUT after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My dad used to have an expression.
He'd say: "Joe, if everything equally important to you, nothing is important to you."
You have to have priorities. What are our priorities? Our priorities are to make sure that everybody in America has an equal shot. It's about you. It's about what's fair. It's about what our priorities should be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Well, if it isn't clear yet, only one candidate for president is focusing on improving the lives of the American people, and not of himself.
One candidate is offering substance, not platitudes or fearmongering, and has the receipts to prove it, while Donald Trump has repeatedly attacked Joe Biden for his tax plan.
Well, the conservative think tank the American Enterprise Institute has determined that Biden's economic plans would raise $2.8 trillion for the economy over 10 years and reduce taxes for most households in the near term.
Meanwhile, a new report from Georgetown University finds that Biden's education plan, which includes tuition-free public college, would pay for itself within 10 years.
Biden has also managed to cobble together broad alliances, working closely with progressives like Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, without alienating moderates, and even securing numerous endorsements from Republicans.
And, frankly, people like Joe Biden. At this time four years ago, 40 percent of registered voters had a very negative opinion of Hillary Clinton, which, of course, has all sorts of misogynistic and Republican hatchet job roots, but there it was.
Only 28 percent say the same about Biden today.
Joining me now, Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan.
And, Governor, thank you so much for being here. I truly appreciate you being here.
Let's start out by talking about these economic numbers.
The RealClearPolitics average, of course, has Joe Biden leading Donald Trump 49.8 to 42.6. That's the average, when you add up all the polls. And that's in Michigan, in your state.
What are the voters who talk to you hinging their vote on? What are the important issues? Is it the economy? You know, they always say, it's the economy, stupid. Or is it COVID or some combination?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): I think it's all of the above, Joy.
We know that the failure of this administration to get their arms around the public health crisis has meant tens of millions who are out of work. It has meant people lining up at food pantries who never had to do that before. It means 100,000 -- 200,000 people who have died and many more who are still getting sick.
Our nation is behind the rest of the world when it comes to getting our arms around COVID. And we're paying an economic price for it, and that really is the dinner table issue in 2020. And that's what -- that's what people want, and I think that's why Joe Biden's resonating.
REID: You know, we have -- the numbers out of all of these states -- the amount of people voting is incredible all over the country, but just to zero in on your state, we have three weeks to go until we count the votes. We don't even call that Election Day anymore, because every day is Election Day.
Only 248,000 absentee ballots had been turned in at this time in 2016. So, 248,000 had been turned in by this time in 2016. That's about 25 percent, about a quarter as many as have been turned in now, 997,644 absentee ballots.
Wow.
Is the Postal Service prepared to handle that? We know that the Trump administration, Louis DeJoy, played funny with the Postal Service. Are you confident that those mail-in ballots are going to be counted?
WHITMER: Well, I am, for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, because we -- you can walk right now into your clerk's office and cast your absentee ballot in person. You can even register to vote and cast your ballot that same trip to the clerk's office.
We have drop boxes all across Michigan. We have a phenomenal secretary of state in Jocelyn Benson, an attorney general in Dana Nessel. And we are all working together to make sure that every vote gets counted and that people are safe when they go to vote.
And we are -- we're going to make sure that every -- that that happens for everyone.
So, if you're a Michigander, and you're watching, and you want to -- you're worried about a crush of people coming in on Election Day, in the midst of a pandemic, go and vote now.
REID: I feel like it's very clear that you get very different governance from Republicans and Democrats.
The state of Michigan, if you were in Flint, and you found yourself under your predecessor, you couldn't drink your water. I have friends in that community. You -- it's different. There's a different attitude toward the environment. There's a different attitude toward the poor. There's a different attitude toward who deserves benefits.
So, it is different.
Do you get the sense that now that is starting to sink in? Because Michigan is a state with a lot of conservative voters. Are people starting to see that, you know what, these parties are very different? Biden's economic policy includes the ability to go to community college for free.
That's a big difference. That's nothing Republicans would do. It includes cutting taxes for the little guy, instead of the rich people. Like, are people -- do you think that's sinking in finally?
WHITMER: I think so.
And, in 2016, I think it's important to remember that that just -- that election was decided in Michigan by less than 11,000 votes. It was a very low turnout.
Just two years later, I won by more than 400,000. People understand the consequences of not voting. They understand the consequences of someone getting elected who doesn't share your values. And I think that's why people are turning out in droves.
And I anticipate seeing the largest turnout in the history of the state come November 3, when we're counting all these ballots. And so I think that it's because people understand who is in these offices matters. And in this moment, it's life and death.
REID: Yes.
WHITMER: The actions we have taken around COVID-19 have saved thousands of lives.
And that's undeniable. And that's why we need a leader at the federal level who gets that.
REID: I would be remiss if not asking you about your own safety. Part of the reaction against doing something rational about the pandemic has been this just maniacal anti-mask movement that has morphed with militia movements and white nationalist movements and the Boogaloo movements and all of the rest of it.
You yourself did face these threats. There have been arrests and indictments in a case that was a plot to kidnap you.
I want to ask you specifically about the sheriff. His name is Sheriff Dar Leaf, who not only stood with these militiamen, but apparently is a part of something called the Constitutional Sheriffs Movement, which is a far right paramilitary adjunct movement of sheriffs, elected officials, who are supposed to be law enforcement.
Do you feel safe in your state, knowing that some members of law enforcement are essentially part -- and they're not really militias. They're just domestic terrorist gangs. Are you concerned for your safety because of that?
WHITMER: Well, thank you for making that distinction, because I do think it's important, and words matter. And they are domestic terrorists, the groups that were plotting to kidnap and probably murder me. That's what they are.
And we need to call them what there. And everyone with a platform needs to use it. This is unacceptable. And this is why Ronald Reagan was the person that I quoted when I gave my speech after those announcements were -- those charges were announced.
I think it's really important that we recognized there is a small group that are intent on doing harm to their fellow Americans, that are making excuses for them, that are giving them credibility. And it is on the rest of us, people of goodwill on both sides of the aisle, to call it what it is, and call people to the real promise of the American dream that Ronald Reagan was talking about in that quote that I used.
I think that this is a moment where we're seeing a small group that has been emboldened by the hateful speech coming out of our nation's capital. And the rest of us have to stand up and call it what it is and seek justice.
And that's precisely what we're doing.
REID: I think it's a good time to note for our viewers that, in general, sheriffs are elected officials. Police chiefs are appointed.
You can have a say in who your sheriffs are, and it would probably be a good idea to not have any that are associated with domestic terrorists. That would be a good thing for you all to vote for. So, vote down-ticket.
Thank you very much. Please be safe, Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Thank you very much for being here. Be well.
WHITMER: Thank you, Joy.
REID: Thank you.
And still ahead: Trump is bringing his COVID super-spreading misinformation tour to Iowa tonight, just as the state reports a record high in new hospitalizations.
What could possibly go wrong?
And don't forget to check out the newest episode of "Kamala: Next in Line," hosted by yours truly. You can listen and subscribe for free wherever you get your podcasts.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: Donald Trump, fresh off a coronavirus diagnosis, is holding another super-spreader rally right now in Des Moines, Iowa, a state that reported a new high for COVID-related hospitalizations for the second straight day.
Nationwide, 36 states, plus D.C. and Guam, are seeing a spike, uptick, or increase in cases in the past two weeks. None of these numbers seem to matter to Trump, though, who continued spreading lies in scorched-earth fashion about so-called COVID-19 immunity at his rally last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Who has had it here? Who's had it? Yes, a lot of people, a lot of people.
You're the people I want to say hello to, because you are right now immune. You're right now immune, or they say that. They hate to admit it, because I had it. So, in the old days, they said, well, if you have it, you're immune for life, right?
Once I got it, they give you four months. They say you're immune.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: Yes. It's anything else but me, you're immune for life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: OK, so just to note to our viewers, that is 100 percent not true. But you knew that.
One has to wonder whether the COVID misinformation tour simply exists so that Trump can feel like a big man at his rallies.
But we're also getting the clearest picture to date that the Trump administration actually does believe in herd immunity and herd mentality and is trying to implement it, without bothering to announce it as official policy.
According to "The New York Times," the White House is endorsing a declaration that calls for young people to reenter society to stimulate herd immunity.
Now, to be clear, medical experts say herd immunity, a strategy for responding to an outbreak by allowing a virus or disease to spread naturally through the population in the absence of a vaccine, is very far off, and would involve letting a lot of people die, millions, with the head of the World Health Organization calling the approach unethical, which feels like quite an understatement.
I'm joined now by Phil Rucker, White House bureau chief for "The Washington Post," and Dr. Lipi Roy, internal medicine physician.
And, Phil, we have been -- I have been speculating about this now for a couple of weeks. Rachel Maddow has done a big piece on it, that they really are doing herd immunity. They're just not announcing it. This Great Barrington Declaration -- just lost by earring -- argues against lockdowns. It calls for reopening businesses in schools.
It's signed by some very odd people, not just Dr. Scott Atlas, who is not an epidemiologist. He's a radiologist, a neuroradiologist, with no background in infectious disease, other people who are economists. There are massage therapist who have signed it. There are fake names who signed it, like Dr. Johnny Bananas, who I'm going to try to book on my show, because I have always wanted to have someone on TV called Dr. Johnny Bananas.
Dr. Person Fakename -- Dr. Person Fakename has signed it. Not sure I could book him. I mean, it's literally being signed by fake name people and non-epidemiologists.
Can you report, just as the White House bureau chief for The Washington Post, are we right here? Are they pursuing herd immunity?
PHILIP RUCKER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, Joy, I don't think they would call it that by policy.
But if you look at what the administration is advocating, which is sort of a full return to normal behaviors in the economy, Trump wants businesses open, he clearly wants people to be gathering in mass gatherings -- that's why he's doing rallies every single night around the country -- I mean, these are the behaviors of herd immunity, whether the president would acknowledge that that's what's going on here.
He hasn't so far. But we do know that Dr. Scott Atlas, who has assumed a great deal of power and control and influence inside the West Wing in terms of the coronavirus response, that he himself has advocated this over the past several months.
And it, frankly, stems from an inability to control this virus through all of the other precautions and all of the other things that the experts have advised doing, because the administration has not done them. So we're now nine or 10 months into this pandemic. It's still raging. People are catching coronavirus. And there's not much that's being done to stop it.
REID: And not only not being done to stop it, Doctor, Dr. Roy; they seem to want people to get it.
And it seems -- it would be -- it would be just off the charts bananas, like Dr. Johnny Bananas, to say something like that about a normal president.
But Donald Trump is insisting he will only debate Joe Biden if he can have it in-person. He is basically -- he is infecting his whole staff. He's infecting household staff, campaign staff. He's refusing to wear a mask. He won't let other people wear masks. He wants his press secretary maskless.
He's going in front of crowds and saying, congratulations if you have gotten the virus. You're -- look at you. Stand up.
He -- I can't think of any other logical explanation, other than they think herd immunity is the way to go. They're not announcing it as policy. But can you just explain to the country how deadly that would be?
DR. LIPI ROY, MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, Joy. Good to be with you and to share a panel with Philip.
You know, in the course of human history, herd immunity has never been used as a strategy to address an epidemic, let alone a pandemic. Remember, in order to achieve herd immunity, you need about 60 to 70 percent of the population to be infected.
Right now, we're at about maybe less than about 3 percent of the population that's infected, as far as we know -- that's an underestimate -- 3 percent, and we have 215,000 deaths. Just simple extraction from 3 percent to 60 percent, that's going to be millions of people, millions of lives lost, at least one, two million lives, minimum.
Herd immunity is not a strategy that's going to lead to mass protection, mass immunity. It will lead to mass murder. Let's be very clear about that.
And, by the way, in response to that Great Barrington report written by these individuals, in response to that, the director of the NIH, National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins, an evidence, data-driven scientist and physician to the core, earlier today said that it is not mainstream science. It is a fringe view.
So I want to make sure that every one of your viewers realizes that herd immunity is not an evidence-based effective strategy at all, Joy.
REID: I mean, Philip, we're at the point now where the President of the United States listens more to Dr. Johnny Bananas than he does to Dr. Anthony Fauci. And, you know, I wonder if inside the White House, White House staff understands that he's willing to let them die? Because that's what this is about.
This is saying we're going to let a lot of people die, millions and millions of Americans, and also his own team. His family is now infected. He's willing to let a lot of people die.
Does his staff understand that?
PHILIP RUCKER, CO-AUTHOR, "A VERY STABLE GENIUS": Well, Joy, each staffer has a different view of all of this, but there has been a great deal of tension inside the White House about the role that Dr. Atlas in particular has played in advancing what some of the other public health officials consider to be debunked and frankly crap science.
And he's had the president's ear on all of this. And has a great deal of influence inside the White House and is effective in sort of sidelining people like Dr. Fauci. And that's been reported over several weeks now. And so, you know, there are -- there are tensions and there are frustrations inside the staff about this.
But to the -- to the degree to which they --
REID: Yeah.
RUCKER: -- acknowledge this is the president wanting people to die, I don't know about that.
REID: Well, they should start thinking -- Kurt Bardella has a great piece in "USA Today" in look at your family, look at your kids, and ask yourself if you're willing to die for this man?
Very quick answer, Dr. Lipi Roy, would you let Dr. Scott Atlas treat you for an infectious disease?
ROY: Oh, most definitely not. Look, it doesn't matter what specialty you come from. This is not a knock on radiologists.
REID: No, I love my radiologists.
ROY: As long as you have the proper public health training, epidemiology training, these additional training. The advice that's coming out right now, or at least the president is listening to is reckless, it is dangerous, it is not rooted in science, Joy.
REID: Yeah. It is -- it is the advice of Dr. Johnny Bananas. Just remember that, all of you Trump supporters, that's who he gets his advice from.
Thank you, Phil Rucker and Dr. Lipi Roy.
Still ahead, former Trump White House official Omarosa Manigault Newman and a former adviser to the first lady are both being targeted retribution by Trump and his administration after writing tell-all books about their experiences, as none other than William Barr's DOJ makes clear that they will go after anyone who crosses Trump.
Both women join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: Trump likes to think that everything belongs to him. Take, for example, the Department of Justice under Attorney General William Barr, which is supposed to enforce the country's laws and administer justice for all of the people.
Well, under Trump, the DOJ has been rebranded. It's now for all intents and purposes the law firm of Trump, Trump and Trump.
Back in September, the department moved to make the United States government the defendant in a defamation case brought by E. Jean Carroll who accused Trump of sexual assault back in the 1990s. In May of last year, Barr tapped U.S. Attorney John Durham to investigate what role Obama officials played in the origin of the FBI's Trump/Russia investigation. That, of course, went nowhere.
You'll remember these guys cheering Barr on to investigate Obama's officials?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Bill Barr's trying to clean up the politics that existed in the Obama administration. It was the Obama administration in the last days of that administration, 38 people unmasked Michael Flynn's name 49 times.
REP. DEVIN NUNES (R-CA): All of them are just unmasking and then leaking out about anyone within the Trump campaign and the Trump transition team that they could.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Let's get it out before the people and show them how devious and how deep the plot was to go after our duly elected president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: One of those guys sued a pretend cow.
Guess what? The other Barr sponsored political investigation, the so-called unmasking probe, was also a bust.
According to reports, the federal prosecutor appointed by Barr found Obama officials did nothing wrong. Surprise.
Well, Trump's not happy, of course, and his patience is apparently wearing thin. Here's what he told Newsmax.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWSMAX TV HOST: Bill Barr, will he be around in a second term?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): I have no comment. Can't comment on that. It's too early.
NEWSMAX TV HOST: Too early?
TRUMP: I'm not happy with all of the evidence I had. I can tell you that. I'm not happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: He didn't lock her up.
Barr isn't the only minion Trump is unhappy with. The manic person who once told a crowd that if people screw you, screw them ten times as hard, now has set his vengeful sights on two former friends. Stephanie Winston Wolkoff and Omarosa Manigault Newman, and we'll tell you why and get their response live. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: For Trump, vengeance is clearly higher on the to-do list than eradicating COVID-19. Yesterday, the Department of Justice moved to sue Melania Trump's former aide and friend Stephanie Winston Wolkoff for publishing a tell-all book that disclosed intimate details about the first lady and her family.
She's not alone in the crosshairs. "The New York Times" reported that the Trump campaign wants former "Apprentice" star and senior White House official Omarosa Manigault Newman to shell out a million bucks to pay for an ad campaign they say as a remedy for her past criticism of the Trump administration.
Joining me now is Omarosa Manigault Newman, former director of communications for the office of public liaison at the White House and author of "Unhinged: An Insider's Account of the Trump White House."
And Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, former friend and adviser to Melania Trump and author of "Melania and Me: The Rise and Fall of My Friendship with the First Lady."
Both New York Times" bestsellers. Congratulations to both of you on those books.
Omarosa, I might go to you first.
OMAROSA MANIGAULT NEWMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS FOR TEH OFFICE OF PUBLIC LIASON AT THE WHITE HOUSE: Thank you.
REID: You have had a long trajectory. You've known Donald Trump a really long time, going all the way back to "The Apprentice" many years ago, all the way through the Trump campaign, the Trump White House to your exit in which he didn't even do it himself and had John Kelly usher you out the door.
Knowing him as you do, how serious do you think this threat is? He's threatened to sue a lot of people. How serious do you think this threat is and how likely are you to write a check to him and his campaign for a million dollars?
MANIGAULT NEWMAN: First of all, I think that the American people would be very disheartened to know Donald Trump is utilizing taxpayer dollars, funds that come out of their paychecks to go after his political rivals. I think that they would be disheartened by it and, in fact, surprise to learn how many people he is attacking.
But let me just tell you, it would be very unlikely that I would ever do (INAUDIBLE) and it was a desperation move by him because he and his team are losing in the arbitration. And so, they came up with this crazy plan to have me go out and tell the world that Trump is not what everyone says he is -- which is a racist, a misogynist and just a downright dictator.
REID: The idea that you'd come out and do that, I think, is wild. Maybe Dr. Johnny Bananas told him they should do that.
Let me go to you, Stephanie, on this. Your relationship is just as deep but really with the first lady, with Melania Trump. You knew her for a very long time.
And here she is in one of the audio releases in something that fell by the wayside because Donald Trump caught COVID and so did she, and apparently so did their son, so people really didn't note it when it first came out.
But as other than a little bit, here is it is that -- her talking about Christmas and also children.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MELANIA TRUMP, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: They say I'm complicit. I'm the same like him. I support him. I don't do enough. I don't do enough.
STEPHANIE WINSTON WOLKOFF, FORMER ADVISOR TO FIRST LADY MELANIA TRUMP: No.
MELANIA TRUMP: Where I am, I put -- I'm working like a -- my ass off at Christmas stuff that, you know, who gives a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about Christmas stuff and decoration? But I need to do it, right?
WOLKOFF: Yeah, but --
MELANIA TRUMP: Correct?
WOLKOFF: A hundred percent. You have no choice.
MELANIA TRUMP: OK, and then I do it and I say that I'm working on Christmas planning for the Christmas and, oh, what about the children that they were separated? Give me a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) break. Where they were saying anything when Obama did that?
WOLKOFF: I know.
MELANIA TRUMP: I cannot go -- I was trying to get the kid reunited with the mom. I didn't have a chance, needs to go through the process and the law.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
REID: And I should note that Melania Trump has now come out with a statement saying her son, Barron, also has COVID.
They're suing you for that, Stephanie, or going after you for it. The people going after you are the Department of Justice.
WOLKOFF: Thank you for having me, Joy.
And I'd like to first start by saying, you know, I'm glad they've both recovered. I'm glad the president has recovered. You know, they have incredible health care.
Unfortunately, over 215,000 people have died from COVID. And so, I think that's something that we really need to register and focus on. And the fact that the Trumps have now engaged the Department of Justice and weaponized Bill Barr against all of the people that want to speak the truth, do speak the truth, there's a lot to say about their character, their lack of all character, and morals and inability to empathize with anyone.
So --
REID: You know, Omarosa --
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Go on.
WOLKOFF: No, please.
REID: OK. Well, I just want to go, if they aren't -- you're right. He has $100,000 worth of treatment he can get that ordinary people can't get.
You guys are on the list of people who were in and then they were out, as the old fashion TV show used to say. You know, Rex Tillerson was in and out, Tom Bossert, Mike Flynn was always in, I guess. John Bolton, you know, Anthony Scaramucci, they love you and then they hate you. You know, that's not -- that's not a thing.
But on one of them, Omarosa, a year ago, Ice Cube who was never in the administration, but he was definitely an opponent of Donald Trump. Last year, he was saying arrest the president and he had a song out about it. This is an example of it going in reverse, suddenly they're like, Ice Cube, and I guess he's their friend.
Can you make any sense of their plans as far as to how they're supposed to be adding to their support? If they're going after you ladies, if they're showing they're misusing the government and having last-minute friends like Ice Cube, I don't understand it. You've worked in politics. Do you understand it?
NEWMAN: Well, you're right. When I worked in the Clinton administration, certainly we reached out to high-profile African-Americans.
But Donald Trump exploits African-American men particularly. If you look at his convention, he pulled out every African-American male athlete or trainer because he thinks strategically, African-American will vote for him. But I'm here to say he is absolutely incorrect and his strategy is really flawed because the African-American people particularly have really become aware Donald Trump, one, does not have an agenda to address the disparities in our community.
Stephanie was absolutely right. The American people are tired of a president who has no empathy, has no plan, has no desire to make a difference in this country. He doesn't -- he wants to get rid of Obamacare in the middle of a pandemic. I think that says it all.
But in my 17 years of knowing Donald Trump --
REID: Yeah.
NEWMAN: -- truly this is the lowest he's gone.
REID: Yeah, it's a lot.
Omarosa Manigault Newman, Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, thank you both very much. I really appreciate you being here.
That is tonight's REIDOUT.
By the way, tune in tomorrow night. We're going to have an exclusive first look at a brand-new ad from the Lincoln Project. That should be very interesting.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES starts right now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END
Content and programming copyright 2020 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Copyright 2020 ASC Services II Media, LLC. All materials herein are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of ASC Services II Media, LLC. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.