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Transcript: The ReidOut, January 15, 2021

Guests: Elizabeth Neumann, Naveed Jamali, Ezekiel Emanuel, Stacey Plaskett, David Frum, Emily Jane Fox


Concerns over safety and security ahead of Biden's inauguration. National Guard fortifying key sites in Washington. Massive troop presence around Capitol Hill ahead of inauguration. D.C. braces for violence ahead of Biden inauguration. My Pillow CEO Mike Lindell visits White House with notes including phrase martial law if necessary. Acting U.S. attorney for D.C. says 300 criminal cases possible by day's end.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: With just five days to go until the inauguration of Joe Biden, Washington, D.C., is increasingly on edge. Amid the looming threat posed by homegrown extremists, the Secret Service is taking the lead and secured a green zone around critical sites, literally barricaded the Capitol perimeter. As we speak, the National Guard continues to deploy with troop levels expected to exceed 20,000 in the coming days. According to The New York Times, that's roughly three times the number of American troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria.

Now, it would not be a stretch to say that right now Washington, D.C., is preparing for armed conflict. But all of this has become necessary to protect against the insurrectionist threat that the president of the United States, Donald Trump, has unleashed on our country. As "The Washington Post" put it, Trump's incitement has galvanized a nationwide extremist movement and fueled those determined to disrupt the transfer of power.

Meanwhile today, Trump loyalist Mike Lindell, also known as the My Pillow Guy, happened to pay a visit to the White House where Donald Trump was holed up all day. Lindell was spotted entering the west wing carrying notes, which were captured by a Washington Post photographer. Ominously, those notes include the phrase, martial law if necessary, among other things, suggesting they could be plotting new ways to overturn the election.

Now, as Washington and all 50 state capitols brace for violence, the FBI continues to pursue suspects involved in the deadly siege of the Capitol last week. As of this morning, they have opened 275 criminal investigations, a number that has likely grown to more than 300 as of just today. It comes as a stunning Washington Post report confirms how close the lynch mob came to Vice President Mike Pence last week, reporting that if the pro-Trump mob had arrived seconds earlier, the attackers would have been in eye sight of the vice president as he was rushed across a reception hall.

So this is where we find ourselves. And the thing is we were warned that violent white supremacy was a growing domestic threat. And I don't just mean by the Black Lives Matter activists who have explicitly said this for the past five years, no, not just by reporters and people of color who sounded the alarm that Charlottesville, the Charleston churching shooting and Kenosha were not isolated lone wolf incidents.

We were warned by our own government more than ten years ago when a Homeland Security report came out on right-wing extremism, a report that dared to correctly convey that the biggest domestic terrorist threat in the United States was not foreign actors but homegrown white supremacists. That report unleashed such widespread apoplexy and, frankly, a total freak-out among conservative pundits that the department actually rescinded it and those warnings went ignored.

Joining me now is former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, Naveed Jamali, former FBI double agent and Editor-at-Large at Newsweek, and former Trump Homeland Security Official Elizabeth Neumann.

And, Ms. Neumann, I want to start with you first because the fact that we knew during the Obama administration in 2009 when that report came out, when Janet Napolitano with the Department of Homeland Security chief and the people on the right, commentators, the commentary, demand that it be retracted and then it got retracted, how much of a hole have we been in on an intelligence side not dealing with the threat of white nationalist domestic terrorism?

ELIZABETH NEUMANN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR THREAT PREVENTION AND SECURITY POLICY, DHS: It's been pretty significant. When I came in in 2017, Charlottesville happened and I immediately turned to our intelligence shop and said, okay, who are these people? I, in my career, have been focused on Al Qaeda and ISIS. What's going on? This is a concern that people feel like they can just walk in public, show their face and say such horrid things and clearly have an intent for violence that day.

And the answer you would get back from the intelligence community is, well, we don't keep the statistics and we don't actually know how much hate crime there is, so we can't actually tell you if it's about the same or less than or more than it was a year ago or when it was ten years ago. And so you would get anecdotal reports from the FBI agents that are responsible for investigating these sorts of things that there was no (INAUDIBLE). So we had to turn to outside groups to help us understand the nature of that threat which was clearly growing by that point.

REID: And I want to point out, and, hopefully, your mic is a little bit hinky but we're going to -- hopefully, we'll get through it because I do want to ask you when the Trump administration came in, there was, it seemed to me, a deliberate decision to downplay the threat of white domestic terrorism and to play up the threat of what they called radical Islamic terror and to focus on that, and even to try to claim that Black Lives Matter and Antifa, which is basically anti-fascism posed the biggest threat. Did you see that firsthand, that they were trying to sort of whip up a fake threat, basically, of black people and Muslims rather than focus on domestic white nationalist terror?

NEUMANN: Certainly, at the leadership level where Trump was speaking publicly, he would always overemphasize way more than the stats or any sort of credible threat justified. He always overcriticized threats from Antifa. As long as there is -- certainly at the time period of 2015, 2016, I think those in the counterterrorism community would say, we were still grappling with this idea radicalization online and people very quickly moving from not ratifies to becoming ratifies to (INAUDIBLE) acts of violence. It was a difficult time period to try to figure out the best strategies to try to go after that threat.

But because he was so emphasizing Islamic terrorism, certainly, that meant that counterterrorism professionals were caught flatfooted when we started to see the evidence of this white supremacist threat manifest in 2018 and really came into its own in 2019, but the price tag of that the El Paso attack and a number of others as well. We were not prepared, even though certain voices were starting to raise the alarm, we were not prepared.

REID: Yes. And when the president was inciting it as well.

Naveed, you and I talked have about this, this sort of failure of imagination to even imagine the idea that white Americans could be dangerous, right? And, say, by default, this was sort of looked aside, even if it wasn't just a conspiracy to silence it because Trump thought those were his people.

But I want to ask you, when you looked at these videos, more and more coming out every day, do you see a higher level of coordination rather than just a bunch of Trump rabble that are like going to come do a lark in the Capitol or do you see coordination? The first piece I want to show you is a police officer talking about what they actually experienced. This is cut two from my producers.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was pure chaos. And I just remember, you know, people still swinging metal poles at us and they were pushing and shoving. They were spraying us with bear mace and pepper spray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was being beaten with a thin blue line flag. And guys were trying to grab my gun and they were chanting like kill him with his own gun.

The people that helped me, you know, thank you but (INAUDIBLE) you for being there.


REID: And then one more. This is one of the police officers who faced this mob. This is video that I just saw for the first-time last hour in Ari's show. Here it is. This is one of the police officers facing this mob.

That is really sort of new information because it shows you what he was hearing was where are they counting the votes and this mob demanding that he tell them where they're counting the votes. He's risking COVID pulling his mask down and then he leads them, we know now, in the wrong direction and misdirected them.

When you look at these videos, do you see a higher level of coordination that we have been told exist, when we have been told sort of back and forth whether it exists?

NAVEED JAMALI, AUTHOR, HOW TO CATCH A RUSSIAN SPY: Yes. I mean, I think that the question we need to ask is, was this a terrorist cell that was active in trying to carry out a terrorist attack. I mean, to me, I look at this, Joy, it's insurgency. And whatever label we want to put to this, this was not an organic event. There was some level of planning. There was an intent. They knew where to go. They knew what they were trying to do.

And, to me, that means this is a cell. When there is a cell, that means there is a command and control cell. There is a cell that goes out and does things. There is an intelligence-gathering cell. There is a recruitment cell. There is a cell that goes and finances this. This is a terrorist organization. And, yes, I mean, we have to claim it as such.

The thing that's frustrating me so much, Joy, right now is that even today, the inability of federal law enforcement officials, the Department of Defense, to claim that this is a threat to our national security. I understand the concerns about civil liberties, and I think we all agree those should be defended but just to call this a threat to our national security. I mean, these people got farther than Bin Laden did. I mean, they were actually able to get to the Capitol.

And, again, we need to look at this as a national security threat. This should give people pause that this was a planned event. It was not organic. They had some sense of what they were doing. And then all the other questions, who monetized this, who funded this rather, who helped planned this, who were the people that were behind this that may not have been there? Was there an active cell in that mob, you know, carrying out specific orders? I think we're going to find the answer to that and, frankly, it seems very much the answer is yes.

REID: And what we're finding out now, in addition to the stories about Bitcoin money being sent to people involved in organizing this day, Capitol tours being given by unnamed members of Congress, we also have from the Associated Press 21 current or former members of the United States military or law enforcement have already been identified as being at the Capitol riot.

So you have this sense, Joyce, that you had people who knew what they were doing, surrounded by lots and lots of people who were just hyped up and part of it and maybe surrounding them as sort of providing cover for people who seemed to really know what they were doing.

So then the question becomes who is who, right? So there is one person that is looking now for a pardon already. This is a guy named Jacob Chansley. His attorney, his defense in his case is that he, quote, took seriously the countless messages of the president. And this is the guy in the outfit, the sort of beaver hat outfit.

The attorney said the words and invitation of a president are supposed to mean something. Given the peaceful and compliant fashion and with Chansley comport himself, it would be appropriate and honorable for the president to pardon him. So, he's looking for a pardon on that basis.

Set aside the pardon idea because Trump doesn't care about these people. First of all, if Trump did pardon this guy, wouldn't that be an admission of guilt and wouldn't that become a hoist on his petard moment for him legally? And, secondly, does this also give evidence that Trump was involved?

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm glad that Mr. Chansley, like every criminal defendant in our system has a good lawyer, he is advocating for him, but I think you have nailed it, Joy. This is politically, at least, and optically something that the president can't do, even though it wouldn't be an actual admission of guilt. It would be awfully close to saying that he owned the actions of the mob.

And so the interesting thing about what we're going through as we look at all this evidence is suddenly the American people are -- they're inside of the FBI squad room. They're inside of the U.S. attorney's office. This is what it looks like for prosecutors and investigators in the days and weeks after an incident when all of the evidence is coming in fast and furious and you're trying to sort it out and figure out what it means. You don't know what evidence is good. You don't know what evidence is misleading.

Like Naveed says, there is some indications here of control, of conspiracy. We don't know that for certain. We do know that there is a legacy inside of the U.S. attorney's offices of grappling with these white supremacist groups. During my tenure, I dealt with sovereign citizens and league of the south. And so I expect there is investigation across the country into whether these groups, some of the newer groups like the Boogaloo boys, acted in a fashion where they were controlling and organizing.

The frustrating thing for us because we're inside of that FBI squad room, is we have to let the evidence come in. We have to try to put it together in a sensible fashion, figure out what's good evidence, what's misleading and ultimately we'll know whether or not there was an organized conspiracy and who its leaders were.

REID: And, Joyce, just to stay with you for just a moment, if you were still in a U.S. attorney's office right now, would you be also expanding that to people like members of Congress who might have led a tour of some of these people who then turned up the next day, and even people like Rudy Giuliani? He sent this sort of weird cryptic tweet today where people are trying to figure out was he tweeting about somebody who is a member of the conspiracy? Was he discussing Kash Patel, somebody who is part of Donald Trump's Pentagon leadership? Like everyone is wondering what he's talking about. Could this be a wider net that includes people like Rudy Giuliani, that gets closer and closer to the president?

VANCE: I think it's a real moment of national trauma to say that we have to investigate people who are our elected officials, people who are close to the president. But the reality is, I mean, it's not just something we say. No man is above the law. If there were people in Congress who aided and abetted this incursion into the Capitol, then they need to be fully investigated. We don't know if there is criminal liability. But all of the facts need to be uncovered. The investigation needs to be serious, and it needs to be sincere.

There is a provision in the law, Joy, that increases the sentence for someone who occupies a position of trust or an elected official. That's because we know for these people that violate the law, it is a more serious abuse. They need to be investigated thoroughly.

REID: Absolutely. And, Naveed, I'll give you the last word on this because have you seen in these kinds of investigations something that crosses over into potentially political leaders either inflaming this kind of activity, people overseas potentially bankrolling it? Like how broad do you think this winds up being just as an investigation? And in your mind, do you think it has not been public enough, the information that we've been getting about it?

JAMALI: Joy, it's what I said to you for the last four years about counterintelligence, right? If you are doing a counterintelligence investigation after the fact, you have already failed. So when it comes to counterterrorism, the goal here is not investigate.

Look, this should be investigated. And I certainly appreciate what Joyce is saying, cold sober (ph) analysis. But there is another part of this. Counterterrorism is not meant to just investigate an act after it has occurred. The reason we need to know the answer to these questions is we want to stop future acts. I mean, that's the goal of counterterrorism.

And there is no doubt when President Biden is sworn in that these groups are not going to go away. The threat remains. And so understanding and investigating this event should help us stop the next event.

And, look, Joy, I look at this and I look at the video and everything that we have seen so far, we got damn lucky and the next time we may not. And that's why we need to be proactive about this. This isn't just about investigating, looking backwards. That's history. We need to have a strategic solution going forward and prioritize the threat that these groups face through our national security.

REID: You're absolutely right. It is easy to laugh at Donald Trump meeting with a pillow salesman, but this is serious stuff and we have to understand these people are still out there. And they actually are both ridiculous and dangerous.

Joyce Vance, Naveed Jamali, Elizabeth Neumann, thank you all very much. Please be safe out there.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, Republicans play to the MAGA mob, threatening that any attempt to hold members of their own party accountable for the siege on the Capitol could result in more violence, surprise, surprise.

Plus, what is the Democrats impeachment strategy? Give Trump a speedy trial or allow a more comprehensive investigation.

And Trump leaves office with his brand forever tarnished by his failed administration. So what does the future hold for the Trump family?

Back with more of THE REIDOUT after this.



REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): There were QAnon and white supremacist sympathizers and, frankly, white supremacist members of Congress in that extraction point, who I know and who I have felt would disclose my location, and allow me to -- who would create opportunities to allow me to be hurt, kidnapped, et cetera.


REID: Twenty-five -- 25,000 National Guard troops will be fortifying the U.S. Capitol to handle the external threats. But what about the threatening calls that are coming from inside the house?

There are still a lot of questions about whether any Republican members of Congress had any involvement in last week's deadly insurrection. The Capitol Police tell NBC News the complaints by House Democrats about alleged tours given by Republican members on January 5 to rally-goers are -- quote -- "under investigation."

And we now face this sad reality, as NBC reports some Democrats in Congress are worried their colleagues might kill them.

Virginia Congressman Don Beyer told NBC -- quote -- "It's the most poisonous I have ever seen. There's the overall sense that maybe some of them have guns, and likely the ones who are more into conspiracy theories and QAnon, with the pedophilic Satanic rings. Are we safe from them?" -- unquote.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi gave this warning today to any congressional members found to have aided the Trump mob:


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): If, in fact, it is found that members of Congress were accomplices to this insurrection, if they aided and abetted the crime, there may have to be actions taken beyond the Congress, and in terms of prosecution for that.


REID: Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett of the U.S. Virgin Islands, one of the nine House impeachment managers, and David Frum, senior editor at "The Atlantic" and former George W. Bush speechwriter.

Thank you both for being here.

And, Congresswoman, I want to start with you. Were you, yourself, aware of these tours through the Capitol that were taking place? Did you know about them yourself beforehand or even afterwards?

REP. STACEY PLASKETT (D-VI): No, I did not know about them.

I have heard through reporting that that might have taken place. And I'm waiting anxiously to hear the investigation, other information that comes out about that, as well as other activities that members of Congress may have been engaged in to support this attempted coup on our government.

REID: Yes.

I want to play for you a couple of House members who are talking about the threats that they're facing for not playing along with what these seditionists wanted.

So, take a listen.

This is cut two for my producers.


REP. PETER MEIJER (R-MI): I Have colleagues who are now traveling with armed escorts, out of the fear for their safety. Many of us are altering our routines, working to get body armor, which is a reimbursable purchase that we can make.

It's sad that we have to get to that point. But our expectation is that someone may try to kill us.

REP. JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): So, that was taped my office door just a few minutes ago. And it's in reference to me not supporting the objection to the articles of impeachment.


REID: Congresswoman, do you feel safe around all of these members, including nearly a dozen QAnon believers who are in the Republican Caucus? Do you feel safe around them?

PLASKETT: Well, listen, being black in America doesn't always make you feel safe.

But I feel that, more than not, I have a duty to do what I'm doing right now. And I know that there are amazing, excellent Capitol Police officers who have gone above and beyond. hand that was demonstrated by so many of their valiant efforts on that fateful day.

And I am and my family are doing what's necessary, even outside of them, to ensure my and the safety of my family. Many people forget that we are not just members of Congress. We have husbands and wives and children and are, in many cases, really trying to do the best for our constituents and for the American people.

REID: David, let me bring you in here, because you have Senator Lindsey Graham, who I thought the message that he had coming out of this, after having said, I have had enough, and then I guess changed his mind and got back on the Trump train, this is what he said about the impeachment, from his point of view.

Take a listen.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): If the president of the United States was impeached today, without one witness being called, without a lawyer present, and -- it's an assault on the presidency itself.

These actions, if they continue, will incite more violence.


REID: Now, on the one hand, you could say that, yes, if you look at the polls, most Republicans, six in 10, still completely support Donald Trump, think he bears zero blame for what happened.

You can look across the country and see that local Republicans are still all on board. Very few have jumped off the Trump train. They're still very much in his camps. You could say that's a purely political statement about reality.

But it also sounds like a threat. And I wonder what you make of a senator, the senior senator from South Carolina, making that kind of a statement, when we're going to have a trial going on of Donald Trump in the Senate that does pose a physical risk to even some Republicans who are taking part.

DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: One of the reasons this impeachment process is so very, very useful right now is, once Donald Trump has been impeached by the House, it puts a collar around his neck in the Senate.

Mitch McConnell can effectively say to the president, look, if you behave yourself, if there are no further attempts at coup d'etat, if there are no more corrupt pardons, this process will not complete before the 20th of January.

But if you do something else, one more thing, this could be on the floor of the Senate at any time. And Mitch McConnell does have the necessary 17 votes that would put this over the top and remove Donald Trump from office even before.

I don't think that's what's going to happen. But I think that McConnell is engaged in regulating the president's activity, so that the kind of meeting that apparently happened at the Oval Office today, where the president was talking about a military coup with the MyPillow guy, not the person you want to take advice from on how to make a military coup, but that kind of crazy stuff, there is a choke on him, because, again, tomorrow, if the Senate voted, the president could be out of a job in an hour.

REID: And without a pension.

I mean, the fact, though, that you have Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn, two of the three of them already pardoned, who seemed to have been at least a part of this in some way in advance, you set that aside, meaning that these constituencies on the far right are still there and still dangerous -- these are some of the people who called for sedition -- that you have got people like Franklin Graham, who leads white evangelicals in many ways, calling these Republicans akin to Judas Iscariot.

It feels to me like people in the Trump base want more violence, or at least they're not acting like they don't. So, I wonder if you think that this impeachment trial becomes a new sort of potential focal point that does risk another conflagration, because that's what they want?

PLASKETT: May I say something, Joy?


REID: David first, and then the congresswoman.


FRUM: I think many people in the conservative world and the raise -- the money-raising conservative world have lost sight of the idea that words mean anything.

Words do not mean anything to them. They speak with incredible verbal violence. And this has been going on since at least the election of Barack Obama. And one of the shocks that the people who send out all of these e-mails and make these appearances on cable TV have discovered is, wait a minute, I always thought -- I never took any of this seriously.

And there are people out there who are listening. So, that's one of the reasons that this situation is so tense and fraught, why the bridges are closed between Washington, D.C., and Virginia for the 24 hours of the impeachment, is because people who only wanted to make a dishonest dollar or maybe get some TV time have stirred up something they themselves don't understand.

REID: Yes, and cannot control.

And I will give you the last word on this, Congresswoman, please. The last word goes to you.

PLASKETT: Thank you.

I mean, I just wanted to say that what we're hearing and what has happened, President Trump has been engaged in a prolonged effort over many years, and culminating in what we saw on January 6. But that prolonged effort was based on lies, was based on falsehoods.

So many people have bought into those things. And so to not lie at this point is difficult for many people. And they need to hold on to these claims, need to hold on to these lies.

But the importance that we have in the impeachment is to expose them. We cannot be unified and there cannot be reconciliation until justice and truth is exposed.

REID: Indeed. I think you're going to get a lot of amens from people who are listening this evening.

Congresswoman Stacey Plaskett, David Frum, thank you both very much. Be safe.

And up next: Trump is doing everything he can to take full advantage of his final days, with the power of the White House behind him, including throwing himself a little goodbye party worthy of Kim Jong-un.


REID: Donald J. Trump has always been a self-centered, petty little man.


QUESTION: Can you explain your decision not to go to Denmark? Is it really because they wouldn't talk about selling Greenland?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, Denmark, I looked forward to going, but I thought that the prime minister's statement, you don't talk to the United States that way, at least under me.

They're elite? I went to better schools than they did. I was a better student than they were. I live in a bigger, more beautiful apartment. And I live in the White House, too, which is really great.

Look at those hands. Are they small hands?


TRUMP: And he referred to my hands. If they're small, something else must be spoiled. I guarantee you there's no problem. I guarantee it.



REID: I almost forgot about Greenland.

So, it's no surprise that his pettiness has reached a new low now that he's been voted out of office. Not only is he going to be the first president in more than 150 years to skip his successor's inauguration, but he's reportedly planning a big party for himself on Inauguration Day.

"USA Today" reports that Trump will hold a farewell ceremony at Joint Base Andrews. Details of what -- of that ceremony are still under consideration, but may include a color guard and a 21-gun salute.

And NBC reports that Trump is leaving town before noon that day because he didn't like the idea of leaving Washington for the last time on anything but Air Force One, since that is no longer the call sign for the aircraft once the oath of office has been given to an outgoing president's successor.

Petty. Again, the man is petty.

But Trump's clinging to the brand of the presidency is partly also because his personal brand has been trashed. It's destroyed.

And we will have more on what's next for Trump and his family after the break.


REID: Wall Street and lobbyists stuck by Donald Trump for years through Charlottesville, through the caging of children, through the more than 390,000 Americans dead from the coronavirus.

They flocked to his hotels, his properties, allowing Trump to profit off of the presidency. And they profited as well, thanks to Trump's humongous tax cuts for the super rich.

But after last week's riot on Capitol Hill, they finally decided they're done. Companies from Deutsche Bank to the PGA to Shopify, the e-commerce company that the Trump Organization and campaign online stores use, have cut ties with Trump and his company.

And so have actual cities, from New York City to Palm Beach County. But it's the lenders Trump should be most worried about, where he could be on the hook for millions of dollars, when several large loans he has personally guaranteed come due in the next two years.

Meanwhile, it's not just Trump who's under fire. The backlash has spread to Trump's family as well.

In a piece in "Vanity Fair," Emily Jane Fox writes that: "After Trump supporters stage and insurrection at the Capitol, Javanka's remaining social capital and the fear that accompanied it has dried up. Says one former friend of Ivanka's: 'How do you associate yourself with the worst, most toxic people in U.S. history?'"


I'm joined now by Emily Jane Fox, national correspondent "Vanity Fair," Jason Johnson, professor of journalism and politics at Morgan State University.

I admit I'm fascinated with this, Emily, because the Trump sire, he built up this brand that was -- that got him to be president. The fact that he was able to lie about being a billionaire, make himself seem super rich and really successful at real estate gets him "The Apprentice." "The Apprentice" gets him the presidency.

And now, because he then is himself and acts as himself, he's trashed that brand. But the kids actually don't have any other currency except that same surname. So, walk us through, how bad off -- other than Javanka, who have their own money because the hubby's a slumlord, how bad off are the grown children?

EMILY JANE FOX, "VANITY FAIR": If you asked me two weeks ago, based on all of the people who I talk to about Jared and Ivanka -- and I talk to a lot of people, and I have for the last five years about them in all of my reporting on the Trump family -- if you asked me two weeks ago, I would have said, they will be just fine, they will cash in on all the opportunities they spent the last four years creating in their time in the West Wing, as illegal and immoral as that was.

And I think that Ivanka thought she had a bright political future, particularly in Florida. Over the last week, all of the sources who for the last four years continued to protect Ivanka and Jared to me, people who wouldn't talk to me on the record or even on background about them, have now started changing their tune.

Many of them are either talking to me for the first time or talking negatively about them to me for the first time. And, to me, that doesn't signal that these people suddenly grew moral compasses or grew a spine or that what happened last week in the Capitol was completely over a line to them.

What that signals to me is that, for the first time, there is no fear about the future of Jared and Ivanka. The power that they had or the power that people believe they will have in the future has completely dissolved, and the people who were protecting them or thought that they would be in business with them in the future no longer think that they are viable forces in the American economy or the American political landscape.

It was a huge shift to me. And I think it's one that we will continue to see play out.

REID: Yes, indeed.

They can be called Javanka all they want, but her last name is still Trump, right? I mean, she didn't change her last name to Kushner. At least -- her brand is out of the stores. You have Ivanka Trump's best friend coming out before and saying that, when she -- "'Why would you tell me to read a book about F'ing poor people?' I remember Ivanka saying. 'What part of you thinks I would be interested in this?'"

Like, everyone kind of guessed that they were bad people. Now they know they're bad people.

But to you, Jason. Donald Trump himself is a broke person, in addition to everything else. He can't anymore pay his adult fail sons to do stuff, whatever they it is they did for him. He doesn't have any money, and he owes a bunch of money and might get foreclosed.

JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Look, I -- what I see right now is a situation where they're going to be capitalizing not just off their brand, because they don't really have a brand anymore, right?


JOHNSON: Like, the Trump name is up there with like the pharma bro and Bill Cosby and Subway after the Jared scandal.


JOHNSON: Like, it's in bad shape, right?

Now, the issue is, what do they really have to offer? Well, they're not going to sell out their own family, right? They're not going to do that, because they think they can milk that.

But you got to remember, Jared Kushner was highly unqualified, but was put in access to all sorts of secret information, right? There's all sorts of secret information that they got access to that they can sell, that they can parlay around the world.

What's going to be interesting is that, similar to Trump, is, what's important to Trump's children? Is it important that they're still invited to cool parties when we get out of COVID? Is it important that they're still at the Grammys? Is it important that they're still at major events?

Because that's done. That's done for a long time. But if it's just about making money, they can cash in on their access for a while. But that may not work for their father, because he's got too many lawsuits coming his way.

REID: Well, indeed. And, also, you do wonder why Jared was in Saudi Arabia and running around the Mideast. Maybe that's what -- he was already starting to catch him.

But, Emily, is that stuff important to them? I mean, we have these stories coming out that Melania Trump won't meet with Jill Biden, that the -- that Ivanka and Jared refused to let their own Secret Service detail use their six toilets.

You could just go on and on and on. Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, who was besties with Melania, saying she wouldn't move in until the Obamas' toilet was gotten rid of.

I mean, everything about this brand, this Trump brand, is trash. Do they care about that, or do they just care about money?

FOX: It's hard to just put into you how much they care about that.

That is pretty much the sole thing that Ivanka has cared about her entire life, her image, her brand. She has spent the last nearly 40 years trying to craft that. And it -- not only is it personally important to her. It's very important to her father what her brand looks like.

When you're born rich, when you have all of the money in the world, obviously, making more money is very important to you, but all you care about is then amassing power from that money. And they may still have a lot of money. Jared Kushner has more money than you and I could ever dream about having.

But they will not have the access to power that they have enjoyed so much their entire lives. And I think that will kill them every single day.

REID: And to just throw some politics in, Jason Johnson, since you are our political analyst and a political science guy, there was always this theory that Trump could then continue to wield power in the Republican Party.

But his brand is garbage.


REID: I wonder how much that's actually true now that no one wants to speak his name or donate to anyone at all involved with him.

JOHNSON: Oh, look, politicians are single-minded seekers of reelection. That's a basic theory of political science.


JOHNSON: If there's any way that you can get some value from Donald Trump, these people will attach themselves to him, even if he drags them under, even if he shames -- look at Josh Hawley. Look at Ted Cruz.


JOHNSON: The only reason they're doing this is because they somehow think that Trump will sprinkle pixie dust and somehow allow Ted Cruz to be competitive in 2024, which is never going to happen.

So, look, he will still wield power in the party. And I don't think the Republican Party is going to split, because you got way too many Republicans who are like, well, as long as I have some tax cuts with my racism, I'm good with it, right?

Like, he will have that power. But what's going to end up happening is, his track record is running up against his brand, right? That's what's hurting his businesses, but it's also hurting him politically.

The people that Donald Trump endorses don't end up winning.

REID: They lose.

JOHNSON: And that's eventually going to make him less powerful within the party.

REID: Yes, indeed.

Emily Jane Fox, Jason Johnson, thank you, guys, very much. Stay safe out there.

And coming up: How will President Biden reverse the vaccine rollout nightmare and catastrophe that awaits him after Inauguration Day?

And that is next.


REID: OK, before we jump into the next segment, which will be about the vaccine program that president-elect Biden's going to roll out, Carol Leonnig just posted this breaking news in "The Washington Post" that says: "Three days before thousands of rioters converged on the U.S. Capitol, an internal Capitol Police intelligence report warned of a violent scenario in which Congress itself could be the target of angry supporters of the president on January 6, laying out a stark alert that deepens questions about the security failures that day."

That is a big deal. And I'm sure you're going to hear much more about that as the night goes on.

Wanted to make sure that you heard that breaking news.

Meanwhile, president-elect Joe Biden does take the helm of this country at what is clearly a perilous time, thousands dying, millions infected with COVID-19.

And now the CDC is warning that millions more are in danger of getting infected by a new and highly contagious variant of the coronavirus. Hospitals are overrun, and vaccines are running low.

And even though the Trump administration said that they'd release additional doses, health officials across the country are reporting that no reserve doses remain in the stockpile, none.

According to "The Washington Post": "Officials were told that Operation Warp Speed stopped stockpiling second doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine at the end of last year, instead taking second doses directly off the manufacturing line. The last shots held in reserve of Moderna's supply began shipping out over the weekend."

Dr. Robert Redfield, the outgoing head of the CDC, issued a dire warning today. He told NPR that the country is about to be in the worst months of the pandemic.

And amid all this news, the president-elect rolled out a five-point plan today on how he plans to fulfill his pledge to vaccinate 100 million people in his first 100 days in office.


JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Look, our plan is as clear as it is bold. Get more people vaccinated for free. Create more places for them to get vaccinated. Mobilize more medical teams to get the shots in people's arms. Increase supply and get it out the door as soon as possible.

I'm convinced we can get it done. And this is a time to set big goals, to pursue them with courage and conviction, because the health of the nation is literally at stake.


REID: The Biden administration is getting almost no help from the current administration.

"The Washington Post" is reporting that the Trump administration has balked at providing access to information and failed to consult with its successors.

For more, I'm joined by Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, vice provost of global initiatives at the University of Pennsylvania and a member of president-elect Biden's COVID-19 Advisory Board.

There's just so much going on. And it's all over the place, and all bad, it feels like.

But, Dr. Emanuel, I mean, can you talk about, how bad is this, just to be blunt? You have the new president coming in saying he wants to have 100 million people vaccinated. But the last administration couldn't even do the 20 million that they promised to do by year's end.

How bad is it?

DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL ADVISER: Well, it's bad in part, Joy, because we're having the surge on the surge on the surge.

We're now seeing the big rise because of Christmas and New Year's coming due. And that is putting new stress. Plus, you have this new variant that's involved in the country. And, as the CDC said, it's going to spread. That's going to have more people infected too.

On the other hand, President Biden has created a team that is extremely competent, headed by Jeff Zients that really has put together an excellent plan that is looking at every single aspect necessary.

So, first is supply. Make sure you have maximized the supply, not just of the vaccine, but of the syringes, the needles, the glass tubes you need. Then make sure that you have enough places to give it to people. Just don't rely on pharmacies, mass vaccination sites like stadiums and parking lots, federal health centers.

You have physician offices. Make sure they're involved. So there's a whole plan to make sure that there are multiple opportunities for people to get the vaccine. And then there's encourage more flexibility on who gets it.

REID: Let me show -- go on. Mm-hmm.

EMANUEL: So, it's a comprehensive plan, and there's money, the proposal for $20 billion to support all this aspect...

REID: Yes.

EMANUEL: ... and then more people, the National Guard and 100,000 more public health workers.

That's a comprehensive plan. The Trump administration never developed a comprehensive plan for distributing and administering it. Joe Biden, before he's even president, already has that comprehensive plan.

REID: Yes.

I just want to show people where we are and where we're trying to get to. This was the -- so far, how we have done on distributing and administering the vaccine; 31 million doses have been distributed, but only 12 million -- this is actually shocking, in a country of 320 million people, you have had -- number of people actually receiving one or more doses is only 10 million, number of people receiving two doses, only one million.

That does not sound like we're anywhere close to it.

The ramp-up -- and I'm going to put up a president-elect Biden's plan, as you said, $20 billion, local vaccination centers, as you said, getting the National Guard in.

Can you just walk us through, logistically, how do you get 100 million people to take the vaccine? Does this mean we're going to be lining up in stadiums, and having members of the National Guard? Are we going to be lining up at our CVSes?

I mean, there are senior citizens sleeping on sidewalks in Florida waiting for the vaccine because the governor there just threw vaccine in the air and just said, everybody, come and get it. How are we going to do that?

EMANUEL: Yes, so, that's not a very organized proposal.

The first thing is, the federal government can't organize that. At the local level, where you actually get your vaccine, that has to be done by the state and local health departments. And, again, part of President Biden's plan is to empower them and work with them.

And part of that is -- you hear this complaint all the time. I was on a call at the University of Pennsylvania today: We don't know ahead of time how much vaccine we're going to get. We were promised a certain number, 20,000...

REID: Right.

EMANUEL: ... and then it reduced to 15,000.

So, one of the primary tasks that President Biden has issued to his team is, make it predictable. Give people three weeks of lead time, so that they know what to plan for. Have these multiple channels, not just one channel.

So, you mentioned CVS, parking lots, stadiums, mobile clinics, all of those, not just one of them, all of them. You also need to schedule it.

REID: Yes.

EMANUEL: You can't just say, line up. That also just wastes people time and is very, very inefficient. You don't want people crowding. You want them spaced out because of the contagion.

REID: Right.

EMANUEL: So, I think all of those are elements of...


REID: Well, let me ask you this question.

EMANUEL: Yes. Yes.

REID: Yes, really quickly, though, what do you do with dumb governors? I'm sorry to put it this way. But you have governors like Ron DeSantis, who don't care about COVID.

What do you do with recalcitrant governors?

EMANUEL: Well, you -- the first and most important thing is, you work with them.

And they haven't had clear instructions and clear education. And part of what we're trying to do is to...

REID: Yes.

EMANUEL: ... give them a clear road map and the help they need for establishing the road map.

REID: Yes.

EMANUEL: Now, I don't know about DeSantis.

REID: It makes sense.

EMANUEL: But we have 49 other smart governors.

REID: You can't -- we are out of -- we are out of time.

But, yes, you can't fix dumb, unfortunately.

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, thank you very much. Appreciate you guys for watching tonight's REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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