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Transcript: The ReidOut, December 11, 2020

Guests: Josh Kaul, Richard Besser, Shirley Sherrod

Summary

U.S. Supreme Court refuses to hear Texas election lawsuit. U.S. Supreme Court says, Texas cannot interfere in how states conduct elections. 126 House Republicans supported anti-democracy lawsuit. Democratic Senator Murphy accuses GOP lawsuit supporters of attempting to overthrow U.S. democracy. Democratic Representative Pascrell ask Speaker Pelosi to not seat GOP representatives who supported anti-democracy lawsuit.

Transcript

DANIEL R. ALONSO, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's not in Texas' business anymore than its Pennsylvania's business how Texas runs its election.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: All very clear, Daniel Alonso, and more than one big news item tonight. Thank you for joining us on that breaking legal news, the Supreme Court rejecting that Republican lawsuit.

That does it for us here on THE BEAT. I'll be back Monday night at 6:00 P.M. Eastern. THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid starts now.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Breaking news tonight, the Supreme Court has indeed rejected the last minute Hail Mary attempt to overturn the presidential election that came from the attorney general of Texas. In its order, the court noted the state of Texas' motion is denied for lack of standing under Article 3 of the Constitution. Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another state conducts its election.

The decision effectively puts an end to Donald Trump's most absurd attempt to stage a coup. It was an attempt that had the backing of many in the Republican Party. 126 House Republicans, 20 more than yesterday, had signed onto support this bananas Texas lawsuit.

That even came as Trump let a little reality puncture his fantasy bubble today in a tweet, in which he referenced the Biden administration while again begging the courts to negate millions of legal votes and allow him to remain in power.

The list of House Republicans supporting the farce reads like a laundry list of predictable Trump sycophants and lackeys and people who want to inherit the ride or die MAGA super fans.

It's actually, quite frankly, terrifying. It now includes the top two Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and Minority Whip Steve Scalise. It also includes 19 representatives who are backing a lawsuit that seeks to disenfranchise voters in their own states, meaning, that by their logic, their own elections might be invalid.

Texas Republican Senator Cruz, reek in our twisted Game of Thrones, had agreed to argue this ridiculous case on behalf of the man who once accused his father of being behind the Kennedy assassination and who insulted his wife's appearance.

But the most ridiculous defense might have come from the man Trump humiliated as Little Marco, who's proving he's fully sold his little bitty soul to the cult of Trump. Florida Senator Mr. Cellophane, Marco Rubion, tweeted, according to the left and their partners in the legacy media, the Supreme Court was the appropriate place to legalize abortion and redefine marriage but has no business taking up claims regarding a presidential election. Oops, failed.

In response to this now failed lawsuit, Wisconsin's attorney general, Josh Kaul, wrote, Texas asserts that this court's intervention is necessary to ensure faith in the election. But it's hard to imagine what could undermine faith and democracy more than this court permitting one state to enlist the court in its attempt to overturn the election results in other states.

And joining me now is Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul, along with David Jolly, former Republican congressman from Florida, who is no longer associated with the party, and Tiffany Cross, brand new host of MSNBC's show THE CROSS CONNECTION, which premiers tomorrow morning at 10:00 A.M. Eastern right here on MSNBC.

I want to go to Attorney General Kaul first and get your reaction to this Supreme Court decision.

JOSH KAUL (D), WISCONSIN ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, thanks for having me, Joy. This decision is a victory for our democracy and for the rule of law. This lawsuit was seeking to discard the votes of every voter who voted for president in Wisconsin as well as three other states and instead to have politicians select the winners of our election. That's not how democracy works. And today's suit makes clear that just because you appointed three justices to the Supreme Court, that doesn't mean that they're going to rule in your favor. Instead, they're going to rule based on legal principles. So, I was glad to see the Supreme Court swiftly reject this lawsuit.

REID: And I think everyone predicted that that's exactly what would happen. But just the fact that you had, Mr. Attorney General, that you had elected officials who themselves were elected in that same election where Donald Trump lost to Joe Biden, saying that all of it should be invalided, which would invalidate their voters, what do you make of that as just an elected official?

KAUL: Well, you're right. Everybody knew that this suit was going to fail. We've been talking for days now about how this had no merit and we're certain it was going to come out the way it did. We don't normally do that in cases. But this one was so weak. We were confident about the result.

I think that may be part of the reason we saw so many Republicans sign on. I think, hopefully, they would have had a little bit more hesitation to sign a brief that would have made democracy not apply to the 2020 presidential election.

But it is a troubling sign and I think this is a red alarm moment for our democracy. We need to make sure that we are strengthening democracy and reinforcing our elections are decided by the voters and not politicians.

REID: I'm not sure there's any evidence to go to this on, David Jolly, that these Republicans wouldn't have signed on if they thought there was a chance of this going through. If it wasn't that the attorney general in Texas has his own legal problems and apparently, per reports, would love to have a pardon, and if that might have been his motivation the fact that you had 126 House Republicans sign onto it regardless of all of that.

I want let you to listen to Senator Chris Murphy, and he had a floor speech today. Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Right now, the most serious attempt to overthrow our democracy in the history of this country is under way. Those who are pushing to make Donald Trump president for a second term no matter the outcome of the election are engaged in a treachery against their nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: And there is at least one Democrat, Democratic House member, David, who is now calling -- and his name is Representative Bill Pascrell of New Jersey. He cites Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which states that anyone who is engaged in insurrection or rebellion cannot serve in federal office. This is one of the post-civil war amendments, claiming the lawsuit seeks to obliterate public confidence in our democratic system, and that those who signed are committing unbecoming acts that reflect fully in our chamber.

He says House Speak Nancy Pelosi should not seat those 126 Republicans. Do you agree?

DAVID JOLLY, MSNBC POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Now, look, I understand what Pascrell is doing. And I would say from an attorney standpoint, I think the incoming House members have a legal defense to Pascrell's argument.

But I think what Pascrell has exposed, which is absolutely true, and the question is how do we fix this, is we have incoming members of Congress whose allegiance is now to party above their role as a member of Congress. When they take the oath on January 3rd --

REID: Well, wait, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What's their legal defense? Wait, hold on, David, what will be there legal defense? This is an act of insurrection. People voted for Joe Biden to be president of the United States. These members, some of whom in the very states they are trying to be disenfranchised by another state, by Texas, how is that not meeting the insurrection clause? I don't understand how that -- what would be their defense?

JOLLY: So, I'm speaking as a lawyer, not a moralist, if you will, Joy. And I'll just tell you what their legal defense to Pascrell's position would be. As non-lawyers, as petitioners in this case, they get to say, look, we believe there is sufficient evidence and question that we would like a court to be an independent arbiter. That's one standard. There's a different standard for attorneys who make actually the case before the Supreme Court. And to take Pascrell's analogy, I would say, some of the attorneys who have made these courts should be disbarred because they know in legal terms, they are making frivolous arguments.

My only point is I don't think Pascrell can actually succeed in preventing these people from being seated. But what I think Pascrell has exposed is we have incoming members of Congress who have demonstrated before they even took the oath that they see their role as a partisan role, a loyalist role, a GOP role, not a defender of the democracy, as a member of the lower House.

Look, that oath you take, you either recognize the sanctity of it or you don't. I did for whatever reason, whether it was in my moral fiber or just because. But I know there were members that didn't. And I know there are members that see their role as partisan, not as defenders of democracy. And Pascrell is right to indict those members publicly in this moment.

REID: Indeed. And, Tiffany, you know the Hill very well. And so, we have Miles Taylor, who tweeted today that he got an email from a staffer on the Hill, staffers do talk, that said below that works for one of the 106. At that time, it was just 106 congressmen. There's 106 congressmen who were trying to overturn the election.

And the text reads, never thought my work would include trying to destroy democracy. Privately, they all say Trump lost, but, publicly, they are terrified of him. It's embarrassing. No staffer wants their name attached to this S show.

That's Miles Taylor who actually resigned from the Department of Homeland Security who was anonymous for a while.

And you have right now, Tiffany, the 16 electors in Michigan are going to need police escorts because this group that calls itself, Stop the Steal, is threatening them and has posted on social media that they will protest the vote as they go to try to vote in the Electoral College. We have violence being threatened against people who are just doing their jobs as bureaucrats.

At this point, what is it other than insurrection?

TIFFANY CROSS, MSNBC HOST: I couldn't agree more, Joy. And let me just say, this is the consequence of when we do not take this effort seriously. This is Donald Trump and 128 Republicans, whose names we should never forget, trying to stage a coup. This lawsuit, and to David Jolly's point, I am not speaking as a lawyer, and this lawsuit is fundamentally flawed, asking for something that is both unavailable and unconstitutional.

So if I, a non-lawyer, can see that, you have to question the intelligence and the integrity of someone like Senator Ted Cruz, who was so willing to align himself with this president. And it seems like this president is as very dangerous amalgam of Jim Jones and David Koresh, that he is able to amass this cult-like following for people who are willing to sacrifice their own dignity, their own integrity, their own patriotism, just to align themselves with this president.

But the most painful thing about all of this, Joy, is while the Supreme Court was looking into this issue, they were not looking into the issue of Brandon Bernard, who was executed in the last minute despite people trying to save his life. This is what the president was spending his time on despite his favorite celebrity people asking him for mercy.

REID: Yes, absolutely. And that was ignored while they were doing this. You're absolutely right.

I mean, you have -- the consequences, David Jolly, are simply appropriate (ph) right now for the things that these Republicans are doing because it doesn't seem that voters are paying attention in November to them. You have the Orlando Sentinel revoking its endorsement of a representative named Michael Waltz, who participated in this.

But then you have the other sycophants, the other people who were taking actions at a state level, which are equally nefarious in terms of the thugishness of just Republican politics. You have Ron DeSantis, who is making excuses now about having overseen a raid of a scientist who simply tried to tell the truth about COVID. Her place is raided. He's defending it. It's up and down the Republican Party that we have lost the thread on anything that looks like democracy.

JOLLY: Yes. Joy, the interest thing in this moment, and if you look at the lawsuit, you can look at other actions as well. We are seeing Republicans right now untethered from Donald Trump, but still in engaging in this behavior. And what I mean by that is we have seen Republicans normalize Donald Trump's behavior. And we know that for the past three or four years.

But there's been this assumption, I think, that when Donald Trump was done, we would see the Republicans begin to evolve and find their way to a post-Trump era. I think what we're seeing is Republicans today untethered from Donald Trump as independently acting in this way.

And my concern as somebody who has made this personal journey but as everybody else observed it, I'm afraid of what happens if Republicans regain control. Truly, Joy, I mean, this moment is the defining moment. It's an inflection moment for Republicans where we see who they are untethered from Trump. And it concerns me. And I have a fear of them returning to power.

REID: And I will ask you this final question, Attorney General Kaul. Is there any action that the state, that your state could take -- people are filing lawsuits left and right? Donald Trump has filed 56 lawsuits so far. I mean, maybe it's waste of money at this point to spend the taxpayer's money to get retribution against these other states that are attempting to steal votes in your state. Is there any retribution? Is there any consequence that will happen to those elected officials who have tried to steal the votes in your state?

KAUL: Well, today's ruling made clear that states can't sue other states to try to interfere with their election processes. That's a good thing. That was one of the arguments that we made and that other states made. But I do think it's critical that we take this opportunity to recognize how important it is that we protect our right to vote. And so, I hope we will see a legislation that reconstitutes Voting Rights Act and strengthens it. I'd like to see a constitutional amendment expressly providing for the right to vote. And I would like to see federal legislation that ends gerrymandering.

REID: That would all be nice. And I'm pretty sure all of that is on the desk of one Mitch McConnell, who won't move anything, including COVID relief. Thank you, Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Kaul, David Jolly, Tiffany Cross, who, by the way, we are excited about your show. Be sure to tune in tomorrow at 10:00 A.M. Eastern for the premier of Tiffany's brand-new show, THE CROSS CONNECTION. It's right here on MSNBC. Don't miss it.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, Trump demands credit for the vaccine while the White House is reportedly making threats to the head of the FDA.

And my friend, Rachel Maddow, is here on her brand-new book, Bag Man. It's about Nixon's vice president, Spiro Agnew, who resigned in disgrace. He was Trump before Trump.

Back with more of the THE REIDOUT after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: We are this close to the vaccine finish line with the FDA pushing to authorize the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine as early as tonight. That means some health care workers and nursing home residents could get the first doses as early as Monday.

The U.S. authorization of the Pfizer's vaccine is expected to be followed by one from Moderna, vaccines that may turn the tide for a nation grief-stricken and gutted by COVID-19. As Donald Trump who spends most of his time tweeting and golfing while ignoring the virus when he is not spreading it at one of his super-spreader events, has been waging war on masks and threw a party the day that 3,100 people died. And he is now tweeting at FDA Chief Stephen Hahn without a hint of irony that he should stop playing games and start saving lives. Really?

The White House, of course, marched in step with Trump's chief of staff reportedly ordering Hahn to authorize the vaccine today or submit his resignation.

Joining me now Critical Care Pulmonologist Dr. Vin Gupta. And, Dr. Gupta, this is exactly the thing that makes a lot of people that I know scared of the vaccine, the idea that somehow Donald Trump has had a hand in pushing it to come out earlier than its ready.

Doesn't this just make it all a lot harder for people like yourself to convince people that they should get it?

DR. VIN GUPTA, NBC NEWS MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: You know, Joy, in a -- good evening.

In a vacuum, if that's all we knew was the political side of this, yes, of course.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: But, luckily, we have more data. Luckily, there's something that we can hang our hat on, as health care professionals, as public health experts across the country, that this vaccine -- I cannot say this more clearly -- I'm getting the vaccine next week with a few colleagues actually in the ICU -- that this vaccine is broadly safe and it's broadly effective.

And we're excited for that. We're excited for that for the American people, so they can start planning trips maybe in August, September of next year, if everything goes well. So we're really, really hopeful for the country, for families that are suffering right now.

And, frankly, we're ignoring all the political sideshows that are happening. So, that's number one.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: But, if I can say this, Joy, I will say that there's so much attention being paid to these allergic reactions that have occurred in the U.K., two health care workers that may have suffered these really severe-type allergic reactions.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: For all your viewers out there, these individuals had prior allergic reaction history, very severe histories of allergic reactions.

These are very rare, fundamentally. These are not common types of reactions. The word anaphylaxis gets used a lot. That basically means a severe allergic reaction, where you get a rash or you become short of breath. That's exceedingly rare.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: The vast majority of Americans are going to be just fine. And, frankly, we can manage allergic reactions, if they were to occur.

It's really hard to manage severe COVID-19 pneumonia. So let's all be on the same page here. Get the vaccine.

REID: Yes.

And one other thing I will throw in, that this was Dr. Fauci earlier talking about one of the people who developed one of the vaccines that he's now saying he's going to take, maybe publicly, but here it is. He's talking about -- her name is Kizzmekia Corbett. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIAID DIRECTOR: Dr. Kizzmekia Corbett, or Kizzi Corbett, Kizzi is an African-American scientist who is right at the forefront of the development of the vaccine.

So, the first thing you might want to say to my African-American brothers and sisters is that the vaccine that you're going to be taking was developed by an African-American woman. And that is just a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: And is that part of the messaging that we need, that it was a lot of black folk, a lot of brown folk, a lot of Muslims, a lot of people around the world that developed it, and it had nothing to do with Trump?

GUPTA: Absolutely.

I think we need -- we need influencers and local leaders that speak -- that are inspirations to various demographics, Joy. So, I'm going to put you on the spot. I will say that you're going to have to -- I know you're going to be willing to do this, but I'm going to volunteer that you're going to have to roll up your sleeve.

REID: Doctor...

GUPTA: We're going to need other influencers and icons like yourself to do the same thing.

REID: Well, I don't know about the icon bit, but I will tell you, if Dr. Vin Gupta tells me that I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: I'm going to do whatever it is that you tell me to do.

So, if you say I'm going to get the vaccine publicly, my brother, I'm going to do it.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I seriously do pledge to do that, because you said so.

Joining me now is Dr. Richard Besser, former acting director of the CDC and current president and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And I guess I will throw the same question to you. Let me let you listen just a little while ago on Ari Melber's show.

Dr. Fauci said just what you just heard Dr. Vin Gupta say. He said he's going to take it and make sure everybody sees it. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: Well, I will get the vaccine as soon as it is available to me. I have mentioned that I have looked at the process. I have looked at the data. I'm convinced that this is safe and effective. And I will get the vaccine as soon as it is made available to me.

And I very likely -- I'm sure it will happen this way -- that I will do it publicly to let the rest of the country know that I'm confident about its safety and about its efficacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Dr. Besser, we have heard President Obama say that as well.

I mean, it does feel like it's going to have to be a huge public relations messaging that involves prominent people actually demonstrating that they're getting the vaccine, so that people won't be afraid. Do you think that that's important?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: I do think that's important.

I pay really close attention to the expert committee hearing. I watched a couple hours of that. I know several of those people. And they were asking really tough questions. They weren't taking for granted the data that the company put forward. They looked at the FDA analysis. They asked really hard questions.

And then, in the end, they overwhelmingly voted to approve the vaccine. And so I feel very comfortable that it's safe and effective. I think it's really important that it goes forward, that they continue to study it and make sure that there aren't problems that you don't see when you're only vaccinating 60,000 people, something very, very rare.

REID: Sure.

BESSER: You really need to wait until it's in millions of people.

But I think it is really important that prominent people get this vaccine and do so publicly. But I think that the way this is really going to take off is a lot of people -- it's kind of grassroots, more of a community organizing approach, where someone will get this vaccine, and we will talk to their friends and their family. And it's going to take off that way, because this is -- I mean, this can be a lifesaver for communities.

And when you when you look at the people who've been hit the hardest by this, black Americans, Latino Americans, Native Americans, that's where you see the biggest amount of vaccine distrust and hesitancy, because of historical racism and mistreatment and experimentation.

REID: Yes.

BESSER: And that's going to be hard to overcome.

But it will be really important that trusted voices for every community stand up, get their questions answered and, when they come to the conclusion that they want to get vaccinated, that they share that information, so that people can get protected.

REID: Well, and the last thing is that I am one of those people that worries a little bit that just the news of a vaccine will make people relax.

Can you just reiterate? I mean, this isn't happening for everybody next week. It's happening down the road, in the spring, early summer. So shouldn't we be doubling down? If you could just talk to the people here about what we should be doing in the interim.

BESSER: Yes, Joy, this is my biggest fear, that people are going to hear this exciting news about a vaccine and say, it's over. We can finally -- we have can a party.

REID: Right.

BESSER: We can get together. We don't need to do these things.

And it's just the opposite. This vaccine, yes, it's going to help those people who get vaccinated, but it's not going to change what's going on in our communities. It's not going to protect people. We need to wear masks. We need to social distance. We need to wash our hands.

And Congress needs to stand up and do their job. They need to put money in people's pockets. They need to protect people from eviction and mortgage foreclosure. They have got to expand on employment insurance. They have got to give people sick leave and family medical leave.

If they don't do that, then we are going to see the same kind of devastation in communities of color this winter that we have been seeing in this pandemic so far. And it doesn't have to be.

I mean, this is absolutely critical. And I worry that just the joy of having this vaccine is going to lead people to step back a little bit from those things that really have to happen.

REID: Yes.

Well, amen, brother. I hope people listen to you, Dr. Richard Besser. They should be listening. Yes, don't slow down. Don't relax. Get those masks on, wash your hands, distance.

Thank you very much, sir. Appreciate it. Have a great weekend.

And still ahead: Biden's pick for agricultural secretary is getting a lukewarm reception from civil rights leaders, based on his firing of a USDA employee wrongfully accused of reverse racism.

The victim of that right-wing smear campaign joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Shirley Sherrod is a civil rights pioneer in Georgia.

In 1965, her father was shot and killed by a white farmer in a dispute over a cow. That moment served as a catalyst for the rest of her trailblazing career, where she went on to become not only the first black student to integrate her high school in rural Southwest Georgia, but also a fierce advocate for black farmers in her state.

In 2009, she was hired by the Obama administration to serve as the Georgia director of rural development, the first black person to hold that position, under then Secretary of Agriculture Tom Vilsack. Eleven months after she was hired, Sherrod was forced to resign from her post after being accused, falsely, of reverse racism by the right-wing Web site Breitbart.

The Web site doctored a video of Sherrod's speech, making it look like she had admitted to denying services to a white farmer. The story was amplified by FOX News and other media outlets.

White House officials, the then president of the NAACP, and Secretary Vilsack all called for her resignation. However, the unedited video, which was later published, proved that she was actually advocating the opposite.

Vilsack apologized to Sherrod, saying -- quote -- "This is a good woman. She's been put through hell. And I could have and should have done a better job."

She declined the offer of a new role at the department. Sherrod later told "The Washington Post": "I don't see a time when I would be working for the government again."

Meanwhile, Tom Vilsack is president-elect Biden's choice to return as secretary of agriculture.

And joining me now is Shirley Sherrod, executive director of the Southwest Georgia Project and the former Georgia state director of rural development for the USDA.

And, Ms. Sherrod, thank you so much for being here. I so wanted to talk to you today to get your reaction to the fact that Tom Vilsack has been nominated to return as the head of the U.S. -- as -- the USDA.

What do you think?

SHIRLEY SHERROD, FORMER USDA OFFICIAL: Well, first of all, Joy, thanks for having me on.

I -- my position is that we certainly need someone who knows the layout and programs of the agencies. Vilsack has been there. He didn't do all that he should have done during the first time around. I feel that we should give him the opportunity to get it right this time.

There should be no excuse, no excuse whatsoever. He doesn't have a learning curve. He knows the department. He knows what he has to do. And I do think he has something to prove to us.

REID: Has he ever personally apologized to you one-on-one and spoken to you about what happened back then during the Obama administration?

SHERROD: Yes, he did.

In fact, about three -- three days after that was in the news, he actually apologized. He called me and apologized. And he went on the air to do so.

REID: Let's talk about what black farmers need from the USDA.

We know there's a historic disparity between the opportunity to get loans. There were these Pigford I and Pigford II cases that basically involved farmers really being broke, right, and being broken because of droughts and other things, and not being able to get USDA loans, while white farmers were able to buy up their land.

And you were one of those farmers that ended up in these settlements. What do you think that the USDA should do differently as regards black farmers?

SHERROD: You know, we can go way back to the beginning of our people being able to access programs in the agency.

There was always discrimination. We had lots of land, and a lot of it was lost because of that discrimination at USDA. I think that Vilsack and others really need to come up with special programs to assist black farmers with being able to gather, to gain to -- I guess I shouldn't say it that way.

And I'm not exactly saying reparations, but something's got to be done because of what has been done to us. We need to be able to get some of that land back. We need to be able to access loans and other programs through the agency and be treated fairly.

Things would have been great if we had just been treated fairly. But we have never been treated fairly with that department. And I feel that Vilsack, Biden -- Biden wouldn't be president-elect if it were not for black people.

So, I think it's time for them to show us that they hear us and they want to do better by us in terms of the programs through USDA.

REID: But, when you say that, do you think that picking the guy who fired you unnecessarily after a right-wing smear campaign is that, quite frankly, vice -- president-elect Biden showing respect for black farmers, for black women, who elected him?

I mean, I know they very much would like to win those two Senate seats in Georgia. Do you think -- did anyone from the Biden administration -- the incoming Biden administration reach out to you and say, hey, what do you think about your former boss getting his job back?

SHERROD: No, I did not receive that call. I have talked to Vilsack.

You know, Joy, when I said -- when I told him -- and it's been 10 years ago -- that I accept your apology. I meant that, and I was ready to move on.

I need to see that they are ready to move on with us.

REID: Yes.

And so, very quickly, tell us about what you're working on now, because I know you're doing some projects now that are very, very helpful to black farmers.

SHERROD: Yes.

I have always worked to help provide markets for farmers, to deal with production practices, organize them into cooperatives, whatever I can do to help them increase their income on the farm. So, if you get these farmers involved in these projects, you need facilities, for example, just using the school system.

Schools don't want a bunch of collard greens.

REID: Yes.

SHERROD: They do want them cut, washed, and in bags and ready to go in.

And, plus, our farmers need access to those kinds of programs, and help them get facilities.

REID: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SHERROD: Yes

REID: Absolutely.

SHERROD: And...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Well, Shirley Sherrod, you're an absolute legend. Thank -- indeed.

I apologize. We're out of time.

But, Shirley Sherrod, you are fantastic. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here tonight. Thank you.

And the amazing Rachel Maddow will be here right after this break, so don't go anywhere.

Thank you, ma'am.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Donald Trump's presidency has felt unprecedented in so many ways.

But before there was a Donald Trump attacking the norms of our democracy, there was a Spiro Agnew.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPIRO AGNEW, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The narrow and distorted picture of America often emerges from the televised news.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you want to discover the source of the division in our country, look no further than the fake news and the crooked media.

AGNEW: Liberalism today translates into a pusillanimous pussyfooting on the critical issue of law and order.

TRUMP: The words law and order are words that Democrats don't like to use. They don't think they're politically good.

AGNEW: The conduct of high individuals in the Department of Justice is unprofessional and malicious and outrageous.

TRUMP: Our Justice Department and our FBI have to start doing their job and doing it right and doing it now.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: What's happening is a disgrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: In her new book, "Bag Man: The Wild Crimes, Audacious Cover-Up, and Spectacular Downfall of a Brazen Crook in the White House," which details the often overlooked story of the bribery scheme then Vice President Spiro Agnew ran from inside the White House, Rachel Maddow writes that: "The playbook Agnew wrote to try to save himself has left its own long legacy for the elected official who prides himself on busting through political norms.

"It's a pretty straightforward set of plays. If saving yourself means undermining the institutions of democracy, the Department of Justice and the free press, for starters, well, fire up the backhoe."

I'm joined now by the host of "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW," author of the new book, and Peabody-nominated podcast "Bag Man," the great Rachel Maddow.

Rachel, thank you so much for being here.

I have to, start before I even jump into the book, by asking you, how is Susan?

RACHEL MADDOW, HOST, "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW": Susan -- thank you.

First of all, thank you, thank you, thank you for all of that. I have never seen the juxtaposition in tape there of Agnew and Trump. I have done it in print. I have never seen it laid out like that in tape. It's been fantastic.

Their delivery is actually -- has such echoes. That was amazing.

But Susan is much better. She's got -- she's dealing with the long tail of the symptoms from COVID, which I think a lot of people who have symptomatic COVID have to deal with.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: And that sucks. But we are not scared in the way that we were. And we are out of the woods, as they say.

And so, boy, we -- it took us a full week to eat through the gift package that you sent. But we buckled down and we did it.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: So, thank you. And...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Listen, one thing I can be counted on is -- I can only be counted off for food and drink. Like, this is the thing that I do. I can do food and drink.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: So that is wonderful to hear. We're very happy to hear that. That is the first and most important thing. So I had to get through that.

MADDOW: Thank you.

REID: But, yes, so -- and I have to give it up to Rachel (ph), who's also named Rachel, who produced this segment. So, you know our producers are everything. So, she found that incredible video. And the thing -- Rachel Wiccan (ph).

And so the thing that's so amazing about these two, you write in your book -- and you say it all the time -- history is here to help. History is also here to freak us out, because, as I am reading through this book and dog-earing it and destroying it, so no one else can ever get to read it, which is what I do two books, it's freaky.

Spiro Agnew is basically a more articulate version of Donald Trump, attacking the press, the racism, the anti-Semitism, the saying, everybody loved me until I then get into the White House. Now everybody hates me.

The attacks, they're so symmetrical.

MADDOW: They're so -- and it's interesting to me, because a lot of times, you hear very smart people talk about what Trump is trying to do to undermine democracy right now, and the way that he plays very fast and loose with the -- with authoritarian trend lines, and all the stuff that he pushes at.

And a lot of smart people will say, well, yes, this is buffoonish, and this is obviously going to fail, and it's easy to laugh at Trump doing these things, but what about when the slicker version of Trump comes around, the more articulate version, the less ham-fisted version of Trump comes around and tries to do these things?

And history is here to remind us that, actually, that already happened. Agnew was pushing all the same levers that Trump is pushing. But you're right. He did it in a way that was sort of erudite, and erect, and correct, and articulate.

And he still was seen as a crook and forced from office because of it. So, it may -- it's sort of comforting to me, because there isn't really anything new under the sun.

But the lesson of how to deal with guys like that is not that they go away on their own or not that they can be some sort of -- sort of, I don't know, neutralized by the passage of time. He was as malignant as Trump is. But there were good people in office who put country above party, who put duty above partisanship, and they fixed it.

REID: Absolutely.

And I think that is the story. And you do write in the book and in -- and you say in the podcast that it is the story of these -- the guys who stayed straight ahead, stared straight ahead, and did their jobs that wind up fixing this, but we have to count on there being enough of those to save our democracy.

MADDOW: Yes.

REID: Let's talk about the actual scandal itself, because it's a wild story.

I mean, at one point, George Herbert Walker Bush shows up. This is like -- it is like a Netflix series all in a book. But, I mean, the fact that you had this crook operating a bribery scheme that dated back to when he's governor of Maryland, a state you -- people don't realize how corrupt Maryland politics is and has been, but it was super corrupt -- was, I should say, has been.

So, he's operating as this sort of corrupt figure. He gets into. There is this bribery scandal.

But talk about the fact that you have this happening kind of simultaneous with Watergate, but they're not connected.

MADDOW: Exactly.

And that is part of what I think was sort of forgotten in the history of Agnew, is that people -- if they remember him at all, they think that it must have been a Watergate-adjacent thing, right?

REID: Right.

MADDOW: There's a lot of people who went to jail or got charged in Watergate-adjacent things. And it was Nixon with the cover-up with all the other people involved in the crime, and his attorney general went to jail and all these other -- you remember that there were so many -- you assume that it must have been that way for Agnew too.

Nope, totally separate, original scandal, taking bags of cash as kickbacks for government contracts. And he started doing it as Baltimore County executive, and he did it as Maryland governor. And he kept taking the bribes, literally envelopes stuffed full of cash, while he was in the White House.

And so that's what confronts Elliot Richardson, who is kind of one of the heroes of this story, one of Nixon's attorneys general, one who didn't go to prison, one who Nixon, in fact, fired for not doing his bidding.

And Richardson is like, all right, I'm getting crazy phone calls every day from Nixon.

Nixon at one point in the story is in the hospital with pneumonia. The Watergate stuff is gearing up and getting bad, and Nixon is going kind of nuts. Richardson, it's clear that like Nixon is holding on by a thread in terms of the presidency.

Well, what happens if Nixon goes? Agnew goes into the Oval Office. And he knows that Agnew is taking cash bribes as vice president and is a whole different kind of felon.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: And so that becomes this real -- this national security imperative, the idea that the country might collapse if -- if a president was first out for being a crook, immediately elevating his vice president, who is then -- has to be forced out for being a crook.

I mean, what -- what happens?

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: So, it really put the fire, I think, under Richardson in terms of how to deal with it.

And that's one of the things where there isn't a parallel with Trump, because there's no way to force him out of office in exchange for facing indictment. But that's where they landed with Agnew.

REID: And the thing that's also fascinating is that you confront -- this country confronted previously this question about whether or not you can indict a president.

But there is also that sort of OLC memo issue about whether or not you can indict a vice president. And you have Agnew and Nixon both asserting that you cannot, right, that they're protected absolutely by the office from indictment.

Talk about how that connects us to where we are now, because there has been a lot of this talk about whether Donald Trump, who's also seen by a lot of people as corrupt, maybe criminally corrupt, could be indicted, particularly, let's say, on something like obstruction, where he seems to have been dead-to-rights named in the Mueller report.

Talk about how the Agnew scandal relates to that.

MADDOW: Yes. Yes.

And I would also say he's -- you can also call him President Individual 1, right? He's already named by federal prosecutors in the Michael Cohen hush money case...

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: ... the case for which Michael Cohen went to prison.

He's named by prosecutors as having been the person who directed the condition of those felonies.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: So, it's a live issue with Trump.

But I think this is some of the stuff that made me want to write the book, in addition to doing the podcast, because we advanced -- Michael Yarvitz and I advanced the reporting on this even after the podcast and came to what I think is sort of an -- sort of unsettling revelation about that.

Presidents, including Donald Trump, do have a get-out-of-jail-free card from the Justice Department, because there's this Office of Legal Counsel policy that a president can't be indicted.

Where that comes from is the Agnew scandal. And, specifically, where it comes from is Nixon and Agnew hating each other, and Nixon and Agnew having these separate scandals at the same time.

At one point, Agnew goes to the Democratic speaker of the House and says, basically, I'd like you to impeach me. And the speaker of the House is like, no, I don't -- I don't want to do that. But he thought, if he got impeached, that would keep him from getting indicted.

They go to his...

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: His lawyers are arguing no, no, no, he can't be indicted. He can only be impeached.

They go to the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department to say, well, you settle this once and for all. And what the Office of Legal Counsel comes up with, they check with Nixon to find out the way Nixon wants it to come out, right?

And the -- what they come up with is that the vice president can be indicted, and the president cannot. And that was specifically because Nixon didn't want the impeachment machinery to start for Agnew, because he thought that would throw him out. But he didn't -- if Agnew was going to get indicted, he didn't want to get indicted himself.

That was Nixon just trying to save himself in the face of his gangster vice president getting thrown out of office. That's -- it wasn't like some founding fathers on a tablet given to Moses sort of thing in the Constitution.

The get-out-of-jail free card that is keeping Donald Trump from getting indicted by Mueller and by SDNY derives from this ridiculous, craven fight between these two felons.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: It is amazing.

This era has been so toxic, but, like, the '60s and '70s keep coming like, hold my beer.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: You think it's crazy now? We will show you crazy. We're going to show it to you.

OK, so, this is the point at which the interview with -- between me and Rachel Maddow turns into a hostage situation, because Rachel Maddow, we're not going to let her go. She's sticking around, because, when we come back from the break, Rachel Maddow is going to tell you and me who won the week.

And that is next. Stay with us.

MADDOW: Right on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: OK, we have made it to Friday. And you know what that has traditionally meant on this show.

So, it is time to bring back "Who Won the Week?"

And who better to ask than the one and only, my friend Rachel Maddow.

Rachel, question of the hour, if not of the year, who won the week?

MADDOW: I think I'm going to surprise you with my answer.

REID: OK.

MADDOW: I believe that the entity that won the week is the Centers for Disease Control.

I think the CDC won the week. And here's why. Number one, they're getting a new director who is the real deal.

Dr. Rochelle Walensky...

REID: Oh, yes.

MADDOW: ... from Boston is an infectious disease expert and a public health expert and knows what she is talking about.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: The public health community absolutely ecstatic with her choice as a director.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: Number two, they are now starting to tell tales at the CDC about how bad things have been under Donald Trump.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: We now have James Clyburn in his committee talking to senior CDC officials, who were like, oh, yes, they told me to delete skeevy e-mails from Trump appointees.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: You should know about that, because that -- what they told me to do, that is illegal.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: You have also got CDC scientists showing up again, instead of being muzzled. They're turning up and talking to reporters, talking to the public, speaking in advisory committees.

REID: Yes. Yes.

MADDOW: And, all of a sudden, Trump gets voted out of office. Even while he's still there, their guidance is suddenly getting less stupid and more clear.

Finally, CDC is like, yes, when you're not in your house, wear a mask. They wouldn't let us say that before. But Trump's on its way out. We're just saying it.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: You can see the CDC becoming the gold standard public health agency it's supposed to be once again. And it's all happened over the course of this week.

REID: Yes.

It's revenge of the nerds, right? Like, all of the science-related agencies are back, baby. And they're like, no, we're going to fight this virus. He's on the way out. Evict him already. And let's get this going.

I think that's a great answer.

Unfortunately, on this show, I get to always win this game. So I'm going to overrule one of the best answers to "Who Won The Week?" that ever happened.

And I'm going to say that I am decided that who won the week this week are our friends Tiffany Cross and Jonathan Capehart.

MADDOW: Yes.

REID: I'm giving them "Who Won The Week?" because their shows debut this weekend, Tiffany Cross' "The Cross Connection," Jonathan Capehart's "The Sunday Show."

They debut this weekend, Saturday at 10:00 a.m., Sunday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. Everyone should be watching. I will be in my slippers, possibly in the bed with a cocktail, watching both of these shows.

So, I can't wait. "Cross Connection" and "The Sunday Show" debut this weekend.

So, they won the week.

But, Rachel, you always win every -- every night. So, thank you so much for being here tonight. Really appreciate you.

MADDOW: And I will tell you, Joy, that I am going to be on with Jonathan Capehart on his first show on Sunday. So, I will see you then.

REID: Yes. Yes.

MADDOW: And I will convey to him your winning wishes.

REID: Please convey my winning wishes. And you know what? He also wins because he booked an incredible guest, Rachel Maddow!

(LAUGHTER)

REID: So, I love it. The lovefest continues.

You're great, Rachel. What an incredible book. Congratulations on "Bag Man." It is awesome. No one can borrow my copy because I have destroyed it with yellow mark and things and dog-earing it.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: But still read it.

Thank you, guys, very much.

MADDOW: Thank you, my friend. Thank you, Joy.

REID: Thank you very much. Have a great show tonight.

MADDOW: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

REID: OK. Thank you. Bye. Thank you.

Tune in tonight.

Thank you so much, Rachel.

Tune in tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern for "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW." You guys do that anyway.

That is tonight's REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END

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