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Transcript: The ReidOut, 9/8/21

Guests: Tim Wise, Pramila Jayapal, Matthew Dowd, Tony Thurmond


Right-wing extremist are losing the culture wars; Robert E. Lee monument removed in Virginia; Trump says, if only we had Robert E. Lee to command our troops in Afghanistan.


ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: That does it for us THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid starts right now. Hello Joy.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Hello Ari. Thank you very much, we will definitely be watching. Have a great evening.

All right, everyone, good evening. We begin with THE REIDOUT tonight with the right wing fringe that is just desperate to go main stream, between the QAnon, the all right, the militia movement, the extremist groups like the proud boys, the oath keepers and on and on and on.

There is no question that extremism is on the rise if this country and it poses a very real national security threat. But in fundamental ways, these extremists are choosing these maximalist fights to fundamentally change the cultural landscape in schools and on social media and more.

And they are losing most of these fights. It`s kind of counterintuitive when so many of us feel so freaked out and even frightened by what`s happening in this country but in small but really important ways, the culture wars that were won by those who want a multi-racial pluralistic society in this country are holding.

This morning, we witnessed the statue of Robert E. Lee being hoisted up from its pedestal and taken down for good. It was a last federal confederate monument to be removed in Richmond, Virginia. The former capital of the confederacy. Where it had loomed as a physical testament to white power for more than 130 years.

It was a defense of statues just like that one, that brought a hoard of torch-wielding white nationalists to Charlottesville to defend those symbols of white supremacy four years ago. And to fight the violence these meted out. Even killing a young woman have their hire. In the end they lost. The statue came down today.

In fact, many of the leaders behind that fascist rally have had to face a rude awakening. As a New York Times reports, Neo-Nazi Organizer Richard Spencer is an outcast in Whitefish, Montana, were he leaves. Unable to even get a table at mini-restaurant. His organization has dissolved. His wife has divorced him. And he is facing trial next month in Charlottesville but says he can`t afford a lawyer.

Another organizers Andrew England as MIA following a 2019 judgment against him for $14 million.

A couple extremists like them who when Trump got elected just knew that they could take their hate main stream. Well, they`re still dangerous. The Charlottesville Nazi`s fate is proof that they can be beaten.

The saying goes for the army of Chads who stormed the Capitol on January 6th. Despite the trauma of that day and lost lives, those insurrectionists ultimately failed to achieve their one goal of overturning the 2020 election and leaving Trump in charge. Biden was sworn in, anyway.

And the party once Trump`s will they never came. So Trump`s little army are getting prosecuted instead, if they`re not in hiding or hiding behind their jobs in Congress. That includes one of the most recognizable insurrectionists, Jacob Chansley knows as the QAnon shaman. He`s now repudiated the QAnon movement and pleaded guilty and he`s facing more than four years in prison while asking the he not be called the QAnon shaman anymore. Well good luck with that.

The extreme rights is losing on other fronts as well, despite their wild distortions of a critical race theory, schools are teaching antiracism, students are standing up to them and CRT, itself, remain as part of college curriculums and the book updated the 1619 project is poised to be a best seller.

And while anti-vax have slowed the fight against COVID, the fact is more than half of Americans have been fully vaccinated and rates in blue states are close to 70 percent a large majority of Americans support vaccinations and most welcome vaccine mandates.

These are small but encouraging signs, which is not to say we don`t have a real fight on our hands. We clearly do. But that fight is being joined and the majority is standing up.

Joining me now is Tim Wise, Anti-racism Educator and Author of Dispatches from the Race War and Brittany Packnett Cunningham, Host of the Undistracted Podcast and MSNBC Contributor.

So, you two lucky souls signed up for what is probably the hardest job in television right now. You know, it`s sort of my Lord of the Rings callout to the rest of us, the majority of us. Because I think everyone right now is feeling down, is feeling demoralized, is feeling depressed, right?

But I asked the two of you on specifically because when you look at it, when you take a step back and you think about where the culture is, it ain`t really moved. The alt right never did create itself a mainstream movement.

I definitely want to go to you first, Tim, because you have fought this fight before. So you know it`s cyclical. Ad it keeps coming back. You know you fought against David Duke when you were a young man. He never did get to be senator or governor right. So, I think it`s hard for us on this side to feel any hope. Because we feel like, oh my God, we`re losing. But am I wrong in saying that we need to take the small wind and reenergize ourselves based on that.

TIM WISE, ANTI-RACISM EDUCATOR AND AUTHOR: Well, I appreciate the attempt to look at the glass as half full. I try to look at it as realistically as possible. You know, David Duke didn`t win those races. But that was never rally his goal. His goal was to move the dialogue and narrative further to the right, towards white nationalist, I mean white supremacy. And in that regard he won.

He lost the election but he won that night because six out of ten white folks voted for him and moved the overturn window so to speak further to the right. So let`s be clear when a statue of Robert E. Lee comes down only 130 years after it was put up and 156 years after the war that, that man fought against this country so as to maintain white supremacy and enslavement. We can take a victory and we can take a victory lap.

But then again, right, we have to be realistic because if Germany, let`s say 130 years after the fall of Nazism, that would be as I put it here, if your 2075, were to finally take down a statue of General Rommel, I don`t think the Germans would be celebrating and thinking, my God, what would have done.

Of course, the difference is the Germans wouldn`t have had a statue of Rommel, which to say they are far better in their disagreement than we are.

REID: Right.

WISE: So I don`t want to sort of reign on the narrative that you are offering. You`re absolutely right. Look, the vast majority people in this country do not buy into this overtly hostile bigoted white nationalism. But what we know is that Hitler was imprisoned for a while before he came to power and the history of white rage as our friend Carol Anderson at Emory just talked about is a cyclical one.

So we want to at least acknowledge that the majority don`t buy into that but acknowledge also that it`s never taken a majority to push authoritarian or totalitarian or fascist and white supremacist politics. It only takes a committed group of people, which these folks clearly are.

REID: No. I totally hear that and Brittany, look, maybe it`s because my name was Joy. That might be the problem. Is that I try to find something in it. Or maybe because I am just a Lord of the Rings person. And I`m not saying that Frodo is about to like to throw that ring into Mordor. But I`m saying we`re at the part where he beats the spider. Okay. I mean, look, the reality is that this is a long war and I think about South Africa a lot and there is that song there is something inside so strong, the higher you build your barriers, the taller I become, right? I think of those South Africans including some -- who have family members of mine who literally live almost their entire lives under apartheid.

And if you ever get to the point where you say we can`t beat these sons of bitches. I feel like you already lost, right? And so, I think your fight, I mean George Floyd unfortunately is gone. But they ain`t going to get rid of black lives matter. That thing is here. Do you take comfort in that?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUMMINGHAM, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I take comfort in the data right and the data as you shown us is that we are more than they are. The data can win when we set our minds to it and the data, frankly, is that divine justice is on our side.

So to your point, Joy, I look at the generations of freedom fighters globally who have taken on insurmountable tasks and have been victorious and you gave us an opportunity not to pat myself on the back or take a victory lap but to give myself fuel for the next fight. Because the truth of the matter is we need the kind of courage and power that we are seeing on the grass roots to infect our leadership at every level.

We see people like Zyahna Bryant, 14, 15-years-old in Charlottesville, Virginia when she started along with others the fight to take town the statue that we`ve seen come down if Charlottesville and in Richmond. We seen black Commissioners like Tami Sawyer in Memphis doing the same thing. We see people like Taylor Reed and Tishaura Jones in my hometown of St. Louis trying to calls a jail and doing so much work that people thought was possible.

And guess what? We need the folks that we elected to be just as if not more courageous. Because the problem is we are seeing a lot of people who are already suffering from the most oppressive circumstances, showing the most courage and bravery and taking on the most insurmountable fights.

Meanwhile, we took on one of those fights in November. And we overwhelmingly elected a party that we want to be partisan, that we want to stop trying to play nice in the sandbox with people with clearly thrown up the rule book.

We talk a lot about the hypocrisy of the GOP and that`s right, we should call out the truth of what they are doing. They`re saying my body my choice about being anti-vaxxers. While effectively banning abortion access in Texas and do so all over the country.

The thing about it is though, is that the GOP knows they`re ridiculous and they don`t care. They would love for us to keep talking about how ridiculous they are instead of fight them and stop playing the game that they want us to keep playing.

So we need a president who refuses to sign an infrastructure bill until meaningful voting rights legislation is passed. We need a Congress who is willing to enshrine the constitutional right to abortion access through legislative action. We need folks who see all of these people dying from flooding and tornadoes and hurricanes and we need them to leave the room and pack real meaningful climate change legislation. We need folks to recognize poverty wages are no longer acceptable because people has found the blitz and matrix and past at the very least a $15 minimum wage.

Stay in power really is no power at all, and I see the power from the people and the people are demanding that we`ve see the power from our leaders.

REID: Come on, on the stand, the assignment. This is what I`m saying. Is that, look, this, this is not a sermon to the right. Okay.

WISE: Right.

REID: Because I don`t care. They are a tiny minority. They are no more than a third of the adult population in this country. This is a sermon to our side. Because the way they fight is when losing they say they`re winning. That Donald Trump, they`re God, they`re Lord and savior, came out today and said that, you know Robert E. Lee statue came down if only we had a fighter like Robert E. Lee. Do we have the photo of him surrendering a complete and total surrender to Ulysses S. Grant.

CUNNINGHAM: There it is.

REID: Loser. Loser. Surrendered because he lost. But they lose like they`re winning and we win like we`re losing. I`m talking about.

WISE: That exactly it.

REID: I want to see a fight like them Texas people who said, I`m leaving the state. I want to see a fight like what Bishop Barbara and them are doing. And this is my question, Tim. Because this is what we lack. Is we lose, we win like we`re losing. How do we start -- these people lose and say they`re winning.

WISE: Right. Well, what makes them dangerous is that because they are still ideologically driven to this particular goal of this maximalist white nationalist country, they will fight as if and I think many times believe that the country is on their side. And this actually creates an opening for progressive people. Right. If you govern like you are or not even govern, because they`re not in power right now. If you act as if the country is behind you, you overplay your hand, right.

And so here`s an opportunity for those of us who are progressive in talking about real justice, economic justice, climate justice, racial justice, gender justice, all of these things to take advantage of that opening. These are folks who really do believe I gather that Joe Biden got like 11 votes and everybody else voted for Donald Trump. I really think they believe that.

I think the reason is they live in these silos where nobody they know supports black lives matter, where nobody they know supports a woman`s right to reproductive autonomy, in their world, there is 11 of us. And we all get on your show and talk to one another and then that`s it. And so, because of that --

REID: You`re right, but you know what, the reality is, we are the majority though. It`s not 11 of us. We`re the majority.

WISE: Right. Exactly. Right. But because they overplay their hand --

CUNNINGHAM: I mean we keep acting like --

REID: Go ahead Brittany, the last word.

CUNNINGHAM: We keep acting like we don`t have the power that we have. Look. Joe Manchin is a monster of the Democrat`s own making. Because the more you keep feeding the beast and telling them that they have control over you, they will exert that control. So instead of cowering in the face of one man who by the way is a senator of a state where there is broad support for a shifting in voting rights legislation in Joe Manchin in West Virginia. There is data from Fair Fight that shows us the majority of people want Congress and the president to sign a bill that actually protects their right to vote. And yet here is our senator holding it up. So it`s a cowering with Joe Manchin and the filibuster. Get the work done, morally and electorally that what has to happen.

REID: Amen, all of that -- and this is my last little piece of advice and I know were over. My producer is saying stop, wrap, wrap, wrap. This is my advice to you Democrats, practice fighting on your own. Practice fighting with Joe Manchin. Fight him first so that you can learn to fight the right. If you can, if you going to let him walk you like a dog, then he is going to let them do it. Because he`s obviously opened the door and said they can. Practice fighting. See how it feels. It`s going to feel good to you. That`s why the other side does it.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham, Tim Wise, you all are great. Thank you very much.

Up next on THE REIDOUT, the real world consequence on the Texas abortion law. Talk about needing a fight. Including a women and girls are being forced to travel to neighboring states if, if, if they have the means to do so.

Plus high stakes in California. Vice President Kamala Harris campaigning for Governor Gavin Newsom which is just a handful a days left until the vote county begin. Talking about needing to fight and be sure to watch tomorrow night`s MSNBC Special Memory Box Echoes of 9/11, featuring the personal recollections of those who were there 20 years ago.

Texas is hurtling towards a voter suppression election next year, with Greg Abbott signing his so-called election integrity bill into law yesterday.

Now, while it is moralizing, the situation might not be entirely unsalvageable. Several groups have filed lawsuits against the law, saying it violates the First and 14th Amendments and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and specifically burdens black and Latino voters, as well as those with disabilities and limited English proficiency.

But that would depend on courts ruling in favor of those groups. And we just saw what happened when Texas had to rely on a court to stop its bounty hunter abortion law.

All of this comes as their neighbor Mexico just decriminalized abortion. But the situation is dire in Texas, with patients flocking to other states and overwhelming already strained clinics.

NBC`s Priscilla Thompson spoke to a clinic director who said that, yesterday, two-thirds of their patients in Oklahoma and half of their patients in Kansas were from Texas.


REBECCA TONG, THE CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, TRUST WOMEN FOUNDATION: This is just so cruel. This is nobody`s business about whether people should receive this care or not.

For the state of Texas to be telling their citizens to go out of state during a pandemic for a pill and for a five-minute procedure is cruel. And I wish we could see everyone.

I am not -- if we opened the clinic 24/7, I`m not sure we would be able to see all the people who need care.


REID: The communications director for that clinic says they`re also seeing more patients under 18 and in their second trimester since the Texas ban was implemented.

Meanwhile, in Washington, 22 House Democrats signed a letter to Attorney General Merrick Garland, calling on him to take legal action and to prosecute would-be vigilantes attempting to sue patients and providers.

I`m joined now by Washington Democratic Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, who is signee of that letter. She`s also the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and a member of the Judiciary and Budget committees, as well as Matthew Dowd, founder of Country Over Party.

Congresswoman Jayapal, the letter that you signed calling for more action, do you have specific ideas in mind of what you would like the administration to do?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Yes, we believe -- and I believe the attorney general is with us on this and has made statements towards this end -- we believe that the Department of Justice can challenge anybody who is trying to undermine constitutional rights under the cover of a state law that is unconstitutional.

That is not appropriate. Sotomayor has said that in her -- in a decision she wrote. We believe the attorney general is in the same place. And they are looking at all the tools that the Department of Justice has to ensure that they can challenge somebody -- I mean, basically, these are bounty hunters, Joy.

I mean, they were allowing people to say that they`re going to get $10,000 for a successful lawsuit for undermining constitutional rights. That`s essentially what the Texas law is doing.

So, we think the Department of Justice can do this. We have urged them to do it. The chairman of the Judiciary Committee is very clear on this. And all of us on the Judiciary Committee are clear that this is what the Department of Justice needs to do.

REID: And so, Matthew, what -- the thing that you`re seeing is that I don`t know why Texas Republicans thought that they could just sign this in a room mostly full of men, cheer for it and keep it moving, and that they wouldn`t -- but now they find themselves in a position of trying to characterize rape, right, as if Texas doesn`t have the most rapes in the United States. Statistically, they`re number one.

And they`re now trying to argue backwards to say, no, no, no, no, no, rape is already illegal. Like, I think if you`re arguing rape is illegal, which, yes, no kidding, and we`re going to stop rape, you`re actually losing the argument.

Do you get the sense that this is a case where they have overplayed their hand, and they`re going to start to see a backlash that is real and potentially politically damaging?

MATTHEW DOWD, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: I think, absolutely, they overplayed their hand, completely overplayed their hand, when two-thirds of Texans believe in the Roe vs. Wade and their constitutional rights of a woman`s right to choose. Two-thirds of Texans believe that.

The question is, is, will they be held accountable? And, ultimately, that`s up to us, because the only way they`re going to be held accountable is next year`s elections. They`re going to keep doing this.

Matter of fact, they put -- we were supposed to have a redistricting session in a week-and-a-half. On the call, they put legislation to get themselves involved in transgender sports, as well as banning -- let me give you this added -- a banning mask mandate -- mask -- banning mandate masks, not only not having a mask, but banning mandate masks.


So, I mean, I think it`s ultimately up to us. Every single thing they have done -- we have a health care crisis in Texas. What do they respond to do? They take away women`s health care choice. We have a gun crisis. We had a shoot -- mass shooting at a Walmart in El Paso, a mass shooting in South Texas. What`s their response to that? Make it easier for people to openly carry handguns without a permit and training.

They have done all of these things, all of it incredibly unpopular. But, in the end, they will keep doing them unless we stop them.

REID: Well, and the resistance is not going to end.

Kristi Noem thinks she`s going to try to do the same thing. She is already doing more restrictions on abortion. This is sort of spreading all over the place. Of course, Ron DeSantis is going to try to do it too.

I mean, look, the reality is that the resistance isn`t going to stop either, Congresswoman, right? People are not going to lay down for this. Sorry, but women are not just going to go into Gilead without a fight.


REID: And I don`t think that Republicans understand how hard women are willing to fight for their liberty and their freedom to remain free people.

JAYAPAL: Well, that`s right.

I mean, one in four women across America has had an abortion. I happen to be one of them, Joy. I spoke out about it publicly a couple of years ago because of all these restrictive laws that were coming up. This is not something where we are in the minority.

We are -- pregnant people who have had abortions or who believe that they should have the right to make the choice about their own bodies are actually the majority across the country. And that`s why Republicans have overplayed their hand, because they don`t understand how personal this is to people.

This is not anyone else`s decision. If I choose to have a child or not to have -- to terminate my pregnancy or to keep my pregnancy all the way, then that is my decision. And whatever choice I make is my choice. And that`s what people across the country understand. It is a very personal decision.

People that try to compare it to mask mandates are completely in a different zone, because whether I have a baby or not is not anybody else`s choice. If I wear a mask, and I am -- or I don`t wear a mask and I infect somebody else, that affects everybody else. pregnancy is different.

And you and I understand that. And, actually, the majority of Americans understand that as well. And that`s why we have to have the Department of Justice actively go out and prosecute in these cases, but -- to uphold our constitutional right, but also, Joy, we need to pass the Women`s Health Protection Act.

We will do that in the House when we come back the next time in a couple of weeks. We will pass it in the House. And then we need the Senate to pass it as well, because we have got to protect this fundamental constitutional right, enshrine it, so that no Supreme Court can take it away and make sure that we preserve this choice for people across the country.

REID: Well, you have got to then get past Joe Manchin. We`re back to being -- having to fight your own before you can fight the other side.

And, Matthew, I think that we need to sort of -- it`s a question of expanding the imagination on the other side, because the right has an unlimited imagination. There is no depth of their imagination and how creative they`re willing to be to try to seize minority rule and turn this country into some sort of hellhole, right-wing, Gilead-style country with them at the top.

There`s no limit. And so I wonder if we need to be talking more about -- because the Senate, we can`t trust people like Manchin and Sinema. But I have heard talk of women suing people back. You sue me, I`m going to sue you for a million dollars for emotional distress. I`m going to sue you right back.

Talking about -- Elie Mystal talking about the federal government coming down and setting up federalized clinics, where everybody there, every doctor there is deputized to be able to perform health care for women, and they can`t touch them because they have qualified immunity.

Is the problem here that the people on the majority side are not thinking creatively enough and being willing to be aggressive as the people in the minority are?

DOWD: I think it`s absolutely true.

And I have observed this, both having worked on Democratic campaigns and then worked for President Bush, and now back to the Democratic Party, where I am, which is, I think, the only vehicle to save our country right now is the Democratic Party, because they`re the only ones that believe in democracy and rule of the majority, as opposed to a tyranny of the minority.

I think Democrats haven`t always thought creatively. And they keep, like, playing by the Marquis of Queensbury rules.

REID: Yes. Yes.

DOWD: And they`re hoping the Republicans will come back and play that game the same way they will -- they do. They won`t in this.


DOWD: The Republicans are only concerned about governing to 5 percent of the country.

REID: That`s right.

DOWD: They do not care about 50, 55, 60 percent of the country, let alone they have just signed off half the population of the country, which is women in this country.

But I think that`s a fundamental. The other thing I think Democrats aren`t good at is, they let the Republicans set the terms of the debate. They let them set -- and then they argue from the terms that the Republicans say.

This is not pro-life vs. pro-choice. This is not pro-life vs. choice.

REID: That`s right.


DOWD: And the idea that we have allowed Republicans to grab pro-life, when they don`t care about funding health care, when they don`t care about doing anything on COVID, when they don`t care about doing anything on guns, we should not ever let them have the words pro-life come out of their mouth.

They`re not pro-life. They`re pro-control and pro-birth, because, after birth, God bless you, but they`re not going to help you at all in this process. So, I -- we have to quit -- the Democrats have to quit letting the Republicans set the terms of the debate.

REID: I will expand that to also the media. We need to start thinking about the terms that we`re allowing them to use.

DOWD: Bingo.

REID: Because their policies on COVID are directly pro-death. They should never be allowed to say in mainstream media that they`re pro-life, because they are demonstrably pro-power and demonstrably pro-death.

DOWD: Bingo.

REID: They are telling us that, so we need to listen to them.

Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, Matthew Dowd, thank you both very much.

Still ahead: Do you ever feel like we may be losing the war against COVID misinformation? Is it surprising, with literally hundreds of Web sites now dedicated to spreading this potentially deadly bull pucky?

And we`re fighting back with facts next on THE REIDOUT.



REID: A relentless, calculated misinformation campaign on COVID is winning major battles in the U.S., adding further burnout to health care workers and turning once sleepy school board meetings into heckling, even violent scenes.

QAnon supporters are now targeting a Chicago hospital with a coordinated campaign to bully doctors into giving a patient ivermectin, while, in Missouri, fights broke out after a school board voted to reinstate a mask mandate.

One student in Tennessee bravely took a stance and advocated for safety measures at his school. It was the reaction from the adults in the room that showed us exactly what we`re up against.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My grandmother, who is a former teacher at the Rutherford County School System, died of COVID because someone wasn`t wearing a mask.

This is a very -- this is a very...




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, guys, we`re here to act professional.

Please, sir, go ahead.


This is an avoidable issue.


REID: Joining me now is Dr. Vin Gupta, a critical care pulmonologist, and Ben Collins, senior reporter for NBC News.

Ben, I`m going to start with you because -- and, normally, I would start with the doctor in a COVID segment, but I`m going to start with you, as I did last time you were on, because the amount of ratchet that has to have been fed into your brain for you to laugh at a teenage boy who`s talking about losing his grandmother, you have been -- your soul has been sucked out of you at that point.

What is sucking these people`s souls out of them, to the point where they`re holding up signs saying, "Let our kids smile," like you can`t smile with a mask on?

Uh-oh. I...



BEN COLLINS, NBC NEWS SENIOR REPORTER: They realize -- sorry, are you guys there?

All right, cool.

REID: You froze.

COLLINS: We`re good, maybe?

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: Sorry. Yes, Joy. All right, we`re good. Sorry.

The signs are point. The audience in there is not that tiny little school board, right? The audience is that camera. That`s why you see those signs behind him perfectly displayed for the camera.

Taking over these school board meetings is a large-scale information war weapon for the right, right now. They can get off all of these talking points they have in order. They can make them go viral in their spaces. They can build local stars at the local community level.

It`s just like the Tea Party. And now that kid there, incredible bravery in front of that, knowing what he was walking into. I`m sure he has access to TikTok too. So he knows exactly what he was walking into.

So that`s the thing here, is that all these things are ginned up towards viral moments that can be used in their own information war.

REID: And then you`re left with the detritus, Dr. Gupta, people like you, doctors who then have to care for patients, because you literally have -- and I`m seeing more and more people that are pushing -- and I can`t believe that they`re not getting paid, somehow making money on it -- pushing ivermectin.

Like, this is the new symbol that you`re in the club, that you`re part of the team, that you`re pushing this thing, rather than telling -- and still turning people away from getting the vaccine. And it`s leaving people like you, but also some politicians, even some who are on the wrong side of masks.

Here`s the Governor Jim Justice of West Virginia going after anti-vaxxers. Take a listen.


GOV. JIM JUSTICE (R-WV): For God`s sakes of living, how difficult is this to understand?

Why in the world do we have to come up with these crazy ideas, and they`re crazy ideas, that the vaccine has got something in it and it`s tracing people wherever they go? And the same very people that are saying that are carrying their cell phones around.


REID: I mean, no kidding.

I mean, how do you deal with the misinformation while you`re also trying to deal with the health care, Dr. Gupta?

Oh, you`re muted. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

DR. VIN GUPTA, NBC NEWS MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Joy, we`re entering a very dangerous phase of this pandemic.

REID: There we go.

GUPTA: And what I was going to say was, more zip codes across the country are entering something called crisis standards of care.

So -- and this isn`t zip codes you would expect, Northeastern cities, cities here in the Pacific Northwest, where, basically, difficult decisions on rationing care are happening as we speak.

Joy, you and I have talked about this for the last 12 months.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: We wanted to avoid this fatal sort of outcome here. And here we are.

And so when I talk -- when I think about the misinformation that`s still rampant, ivermectin, for all your viewers out there who take it, you risk of liver injury, kidney injury. The doses that some people think you need to eliminate COVID, that`s going to kill your kidneys and liver before it in any way will impact COVID in your body.


But what we need to really zoom out and look at is, gosh, we can`t actually care for those people in hospitals across the West Coast that have high vaccine rates, because people are coming into the hospital, Joy, for more reasons than just COVID.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: They`re coming in now for non-COVID respiratory viruses, for elective procedures they have been putting off for 20 months.

REID: Yes.

GUPTA: So, to answer your question directly, to what degree are we going to take these kind of irresponsible decisions, to what degree will that get factored in when we have to make rationing of care decisions?

The two need to be linked.

REID: Let me play -- you did an interview, actually, with a doctor talking just about this subject. And it`s Dr. David Zonies. He`s director of critical care in Oregon -- Oregon Health.

Take a listen. Take a look.


DR. DAVID ZONIES, OHSU HEALTH: I think, ultimately, we are rationing care in some respects. And we do this every day.

When there`s not enough, when there`s just not enough supply of personnel and equipment and beds, we can`t care for everyone. And that`s a really challenging situation that we`re in right now.


REID: And the challenge -- we have a short time, but I want to -- first Dr. Vin Gupta.

What does that mean for somebody, let`s say, who breaks an arm or a leg or gets a heart attack or has a stroke? Who`s going to be prioritized right now in the E.R.? Is it going to be that stroke patient, that cancer patient, or is it going to be these people who are coming in for COVID?

And is that the decision that it`s going to come down to?

GUPTA: Bottom line, Joy, in most across the country, it`s sickness, acuity of illness. Do you need a critical bed, critical care or not?

And that -- the problem there is, largely, those people are unvaccinated coming in with severe COVID. This is about human resources for health. We have been reckoning with the lack of health care access for 20 million Americans. Part of it`s policy. Part of it`s human resources for help. We don`t have enough specialized staff to care for these patients.

REID: And to you, Ben Collins.

Senator Elizabeth Warren, she`s written to Amazon and she`s written a letter to the CEO, urging him to step up the company`s efforts to police these COVID-19 misinformation purveyors.

Can you just explain, are people getting money for pushing anti-vax and pushing ivermectin? Are they getting paid?

COLLINS: If not directly, then indirectly.

So the people who are pushing the anti-vax narratives, they`re also pushing supplements. They`re saying you have got to strengthen your immune system. Maybe we said last year that COVID wasn`t real, but I`m here to tell you now it`s real. And here`s all this stuff that you can buy, instead of that government-made vaccine, right?

REID: Boom.

COLLINS: It`s the old Alex Jones trick. It`s go buy my brain pills. It will make you feel better.

So that`s the indirect way they do it. But they do it by selling fear over and over again...

REID: That`s right.

COLLINS: ... and telling you that you cannot trust the government, there`s some other product. Or, if there`s no product, if you`re still saying that COVID isn`t that real...

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: ... maybe just subscribe to my Patreon, and subscribe to my Substack.

REID: Yes.

COLLINS: And then, by the way, there are those people just directly giving you ivermectin.

So there`s that as well. There are those doctors selling you consultations to their telemedicine site. And that`s a whole `nother can of worms.

REID: And you`re getting that content for free. And when anything is free, you are the product.

Think about that before you start listening to them and buying their supplements.

Dr. Vin Gupta and Ben Collins, thank you both very much.

Still to come: Wait until you hear how the twice-impeached former president is planning to mark the 20th anniversary of 9/11.

But first: six days and counting until the crucial recall election for California governor. Why is this a big deal? Well, just look at what`s going on in Texas in Florida, and then think about the children of California having to be subjected to that madness.

We will be right back.



REID: With less than a week before the California recall election comes to a -- comes to an end, Vice President Kamala Harris campaigned for Governor Gavin Newsom today. She says it`s part of a fight that is being waged across the country.


KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You have got to understand what`s happening right now, what`s happening in Texas, what`s happening in Georgia, what`s happening around our country with these policies that are about attacking women`s rights, reproductive rights, voting rights, workers` rights.

They think, if they can win in California, they can do this anywhere.

Well, we will show them you are not going to get this done, not here, never!



REID: This is the sixth recall attempt against Newsom since he took office two-and-a-half years ago.

Not taking any chances, especially when this vote could have the potential to determine who controls the evenly divided U.S. Senate, the White House says President Biden will campaign for Newsom early next week.

Joining me now is Tony Thurmond, California state superintendent of public instruction.

I`m glad that you`re here, sir, because one of the biggest things I think that`s at risk for California, if Newsom loses, is the children in California public schools. It is a state of 39.6 million people. I don`t know how many students that means are in your school system.

But this is a guy who says he does not believe -- let me just play it real quick. I know this is long. But this is a cut two for my team.


LARRY ELDER (R), CALIFORNIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I don`t believe the science suggests that young people should be vaccinated. I don`t believe the science suggests that young people should have to wear a mask at school.

I`m not sure the science is settled on that at all. And young people are not likely to contract the coronavirus. And when they do, their symptoms are likely to be mild, and they`re not likely to be hospitalized. And they`re certainly not likely to die.


REID: I mean, California is one executive order by Larry Elder away from having mass death and sickness like Florida and Texas.

Your thoughts?


I couldn`t think of a more dangerous way to approach six million students in our schools. And, quite frankly, I have to call out the hypocrisy of Larry Elder. He himself has taken a vaccination. But he has said his first order before his first cup of tea would be to repeal vaccine and mask mandates.

These are the very things keeping our children and adults safe. Everything that he has said is proven wrong, right? We have been told that more children are hospitalized because of the Delta variant.

And I just think that Larry Elder is showing that all he`s trying to do is taken advantage of this recall to bring bad policies to the state of California.


And we`re urging everyone, vote no on the recall and keep a governor who`s fought hard to keep everyone in our state safe.

REID: I mean, I would love to see how many ads for supplements he`s selling on his show, because a lot of the people who are claiming to be anti-vax who are vaccinated are also selling supplements, instead of pushing -- instead of pushing people to get the vaccine.

THURMOND: Good point.

REID: This guy also, not only does he want to repeat all of these mandates. He believes that the minimum wage in California should be zero dollars.

He believes systemic racism is a lie. I guess growing up black in America has not taught him anything about racism. And he also says that slave owners are entitled and owed reparations. That`s the kind of reparations he`s for.

How is he the front-runner among the Republicans? I don`t get it. Do you?

THURMOND: I don`t get it at all. But I think it sends a powerful message that people need to show up and make sure that they vote.

I have already cast my ballot. We`re allowed to vote by mail. And I`m urging everyone to do the same. Our vice president was here in our state today campaigning with the governor to get the message out.

These are all very dangerous things that we have heard from someone who doesn`t have a single stitch of experience in serving in the community. And, instead, he would tear down everything that has been built to support small businesses, so that people can earn a decent wage.

Leadership is about making tough decisions during tough times. Gavin Newsom has done that, $120 billion for education, including universal preschool and universal meals for -- and then not to mention the things that Larry Elder has said about race. It is an embarrassment.

As an African-American man, it is an embarrassment that he would say that slave owners -- slave owners deserve reparations, that he would deny the impact of slavery on black people. I hate to say this, but he is clearly articulating policies that are not good for African-Americans.

He`s been anti-immigrant. His policies are not good for our Latinx community. And I hope that African-Americans and Latinos reject this person who has said these hateful things that would take us backwards, rather than take us forward.

REID: Are you concerned, very quickly, about turnout rates? Because it seems like the polls are going in the governor`s way. The question is turnout. Are you worried about turnout?

THURMOND: Good turnout is key to this.

The modeling that everyone is seeing right now shows that Democrats and others who are voting, have voted, and that is a sign that bodes well for the governor.

REID: Yes.

THURMOND: But we can`t take anything for granted. We have to urge all Californians to go ahead and cast your vote.

REID: Yes.

THURMOND: You can put it in the mail. You can vote on Election Day. Vote no on this Trump recall.

REID: Yes. And, by the way, don`t put it -- don`t put Larry Elder in a position to put, like, Stephen Miller in the United States Senate, if Dianne Feinstein retires.

Think, think, think, people, and vote.

Tony Thurmond, thank you very much. Really appreciate you. Stay with us.

You are going just -- you`re just going to be astounded about how orange Julius Caesar has found a totally appropriate way to mark the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

You don`t want to miss it. Don`t go anywhere.



REID: You will be forgiven if you have forgotten what it`s like to have a president who treats the anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks with reverence, after four years of an unsentimental president with negligible respect for any loss of life, the disgraced former president who two weeks ago suggested that Osama bin Laden wasn`t that bad, one of his many repugnant comments over the years.

The very day of the attacks, he bragged to a local news station one of his buildings had now become the tallest in Lower Manhattan. It wasn`t, and it isn`t, and that was crass.

There were also his xenophobic lies while campaigning.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I watched when the World Trade Center came tumbling down. And I watched in Jersey City, New Jersey, where thousands and thousands of people were cheering as that building was coming down.


REID: No, you didn`t. That racist lie about Muslims celebrating was, of course, later refuted by video.

And his claims of helping first responders, well, there`s no evidence of that.

Now, this year, as a former president, he`s not spending the anniversary in sober reflection. Surprise, surprise. Instead, he will commemorate the occasion with his eldest failson, Don Jr., giving boxing commentary for Evander Holyfield`s return to the ring.

For just $50, you can hear his thoughts on boxing on the 20th anniversary of the worst terror attack on American soil.

But in the real world, where never forget actually means something, President Biden will travel to all three sites on Saturday, Lower Manhattan, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Former President Barack Obama and first lady Michelle Obama will attend a ceremony in New York. And former President George W. Bush will speak at the memorial in Pennsylvania, because that is what presidents do.

And, tonight, you can hear the stories of September 11 from those who lived it in their own words, as MSNBC Films presents "Memory Box: Echoes of 9/11," featuring video booth interviews of recollections taken in the wake of the attacks 20 years ago and now, including Daisy Khan, who recalled grieving the attacks as a Muslim woman.


DAISY KHAN, COMMUNITY CENTER PLANNER: I wanted to be part of the renewal of healing America, healing my faith.

And so, about 10 years ago, we proposed a community center. It was called the Islamic Community Cultural Center in Lower Manhattan, a beautiful place that would be for all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go somewhere else.

KHAN: But then people began to attack us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think -- I think it`s just a spit in our face. I think they`re laughing at us.

KHAN: And it really hurt me when they said, not you, not now, and not here.

I started receiving hate letters after hate letters. But I also started receiving love letters. And these letters always remind me to this day that there indeed are two Americas.


REID: "Memory Box: Echoes of 9/11" airs tonight, commercial-free, at 10:00 p.m. right here on MSNBC.

And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT.