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Transcript: The ReidOut, 9/27/21

Guests: Adrienne Elrod, Mara Gay, Matt Sullivan, Jemele Hill, Stuart Stevens; Elie Mystal

Summary

Arizona Rep. Gosar suggests Trump/Biden rematch this year. Arizona GOP chair calls for new fraudit after it concluded that Biden won in 2020. U.S. facing constitutional crisis. Rep. Liz Cheney says, Kevin McCarthy should be ashamed of his embrace of Trump.

Transcript

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: That question being, what`s to be done about our constitutional crisis. Kagan writes that the Republican Party today is a zombie party. The party`s main, if not, sole purpose is as the willing enabler of Trump`s efforts game the electoral system to ensure his return to power.

These enablers from the MAGA monsters who smashed the once sacred space of our U.S. Capitol to those in office, like Arizona Congressman/Insurrectionist Paul Gosar, they consist of a real and very dangerous faction of the Republican Party today. Congressman Gosar is saying he wants a Trump/Biden rematch by year`s end while describing the Arizona fraudit as, quote, a good start, kind of saying the quiet part out loud, because that is exactly what this gaslighting, anti-democratic exercise has always been about, a start to solidifying the norm of challenging, but really steeling future elections.

That Cyber Ninja report, which may or may not have been written in orange Cheeto font (ph), found that Biden defeated Trump by more votes than the original count. And yet, that very finding now has Trump Republicans doubling down on their election lies with Arizona GOP Chair and Big Lie Minion Kelly Ward calling for a new audit, because Arizona tax dollars have not been wasted enough.

What this bogus report said never mattered, so long as the performance of speculation aired on Trump media, so long as it kept the big lie alive, and it is very much alive. Similar sham partisan recounts are now happening in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Texas. Your vote questioned your decision threatened while changing election laws to make it harder for Democrats to win and easier for them to challenge the results each time they lose.

That does not describe a democracy. It is instead, the very calculated plan already in motion to overturn the 2024 election and restore Trump or some version of him back in power.

With me now is Stuart Stevens, Senior Adviser for The Lincoln Project, and Elie Mystal, Justice Correspondent for The Nation.

And, Stuart, I want to start with you, because you spent a long time working in, you know, normal era Republican politics. And I just wonder what you made of the Kagan that, essentially, what we saw was not just a rag-tag band of losers ransacking the Capitol and defecate all over the place, what we saw a practice round for overturning future elections that actually continue, that has been extended with these fake recounts and changing election laws do you agree with that basic premise?

STUART STEVENS, SENIOR ADVISER, THE LINCOLN PROJECT: 100 percent. I read Robert Kagan`s article and I said hallelujah, I`m going to go out and pass it around like Watchtowers door-to-door. There is a need for us, a lot of us to believe that we live in a normal time, we have a normal president, there is such great tension over the last four years of Trump, but that would be a huge mistake and it is exactly what the autocrats, who have become the Republican Party, want us to do.

They are very patient. They are very well-funded. They have these buffoonish characters upfront but they`re not buffoonish. And what Robert Kagan said is so dead on and we have to take this seriously. It is a threat to democracy. And the Republican Party -- it`s mind boggling to say this to somebody that worked in a party but there is no alternative but the truth is an anti-democratic, autocratic force. It`s not a normal party and it has a different ideology than the Democratic Party. It exists to change democracy in America and ultimately in an unrecognizable form.

REID: And, Elie not to have you engage in media criticism here, but I think one of the challenges that I feel, I`ll take it upon myself, is that this conversation is not the way most of the media, most of the political press really sort of conducts itself in approaching the Republican Party. There is a tendency to sort of veer back toward normalcy and try to make both the parties fit into sort of on the one hand, on the other hand, they`re having a normal political debate, this is just about political debate, that`s a normal way of dealing with things.

I think there is a sort of compulsion to try to drag the Republicans, Democrats back to that norm. Some of us who were out here saying, no, this is fascism. This was the bear market push that we saw on January 6th. This was a rehearsal for an undemocratic society. You sort of sound, like, crazy, right, if you`re trying to say that. And I wonder if you think that maybe this sort of desire for norms, even in the Justice Department, and you said that criticism a lot, is what is preventing us from fighting this the way we should.

ELI MYSTAL, JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT, THE NATION: I think you`re absolutely right. I mean, the mainstream media loves the two-party system.

[19:05:02]

It gives them conflict. It gives them drama and admitting that one of the parties is not a political party but a white supremacist rump who has risen -- who tried to overturn democracy, doesn`t fit neatly in the narratives. And so they try to deny it and they try to -- as you put it so well, try to bring us back to normal.

What`s happening is pretty clear here. First of all, Trump has now lost the 2020 election more times than the New York Jets, right? Like he`s got nothing, that`s done with, right? But this, as you pointed out, was never an effort really to re-litigate the 2020 election, it`s always been about 2022 and 2024. The Republicans have no other strategy to win.

And Stuart well knows. If you go back to 2012, when the Republicans were picking -- when Mitt Romney got his teeth smacked in by Barack Obama, the Republicans were picking up the pieces, they had an autopsy. And they saw that the only way forward for their party was to expand their base beyond the white supremacist rump that usually votes for them. That was the only solution, except for authoritarianism.

If we have a country where everybody who wants to vote can vote and all of those votes are counted, the Republicans are not a viable national party. And instead of like dealing with that, you know, sadness and responding to that, they have gone in this other direction, which is the hard right fascism we see all across the country right now.

REID: Stuart, you`re from Mississippi, so you`ve seen that kind of politics up close, right? There is a way -- I mean, that is the state with the largest population of African-Americans in the entire country, yet Democrats cannot win anything there because the state is sort of gerrymander and there was a manufactured minority rule that feels almost permanent, almost no matter what Democrats do in that state, it`s fixed for the Republicans. It does feel like they`re trying to expand the same Mississippi strategy. You can see them doing it in Texas. You can see them doing it in Florida, you know? And so it works there even in a state that`s diverse.

Let`s go to a state that`s not diverse, Wyoming, by my old state of Colorado. Here is Liz Cheney of Wyoming talking about the leader of her party. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): What he`s done is embrace Donald Trump. And if I were doing what he`s doing, I would be deeply ashamed of myself I don`t know how you explain that to your children.

There is a difference between somebody who voted for Donald Trump and being the Republican leader after an insurrection and setting all of that aside and going to Mar-a-Lago and rehabilitating him, bringing him back in. That to me is unforgivable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So, here is the problem that I have, Stuart. She voted for Donald Trump, right? So she`s voted for Donald Trump`s agenda almost universally. But she`s saying there is a difference between that and what Kevin McCarthy is doing, which is basically sitting at Trump`s feet and asking him to be petted, right, asked him to be petted.

But she also said that behind the scenes, other Republicans are glad she`s out front fighting Trump. They don`t have the courage to do it themselves, they would rather this lady -- they`d rather hide behind her skirts and let her do it. Meanwhile, the person Trump wants to run against her who used to call Donald Trump a racist. Her name is Harriet Hageman. She`s a Wyoming Republican. Trump wants her to run. But five years ago, she tried to overturn his victory in the primary race, she called him a bigoted candidate, who would repel voters, she said that it would make it hard for Democrats to win the national election. She used to be just like Elise Stefanik.

So, you have this situation where the Republicans who are weak just roll over and the Republicans who are strong, in theory, like Liz Cheney, voted for him and will vote for him again, I`m sure, if he runs in 2024. So, I don`t know how you stop it if even though Liz Cheney sticks with him.

STEVENS: Well, I don`t think Liz Cheney is going to vote for Donald Trump again. She voted for impeachment and she`s voted for the 1/6 commission. You may not agree with her political view but she has a political view one you can`t disagree with, it still is an ideological fight. She is defending democracy here. We would be a lot better off if we had impeached Donald Trump.

If Republicans at that moment after insurrection, when they could have impeached Donald Trump, they would have prohibited him from taking office again, and it could have begun at least a process of rehabilitation of some sort of affirmation of democracy. They didn`t do that. And I`ve said this before. I think it`s going to go down like the Munich accord, as one of these tragic moments of attempting to be somebody. But at least Chamberlain was a well-intentioned person.

The problem I have with people that switch in a way this woman from Wyoming has, I just don`t believe people change deeply with their beliefs in a few years. I think it just proves you didn`t really hold those beliefs.

REID: It`s hard because you think about Brian Kemp, Elie, this guy has done everything but roll over and show Trump his belly and Trump still hates him. Trump still hates him. Because no matter what he tries to do to appease Trump, somebody with that kind of social pathology will never love you, they will never appreciate it, they will never be grateful.

[19:10:03]

He still is like, well, I`d rather have Stacey Abrams than you, Brian Kemp. He is still ridiculing him. He still mocked him this weekend. It`s almost as if -- I mean, there is nothing Republicans can do to appease Trump enough. Kevin McCarthy, there`s nothing he can do to appease Trump enough other than hand him back the White House. That`s it. That`s all you can do. Look at the former V.P. Go ahead.

MYSTAL: The willingness for Republicans to be the base for this man is one of the stories of our time, right? Like you can look at Ted Cruz letting that man talk bad about his wife and just didn`t do nothing, you can look at the younger Bush and let him talk bad about his dad, just didn`t do not like -- just the level of -- I think the word is cowardice and debates that these people are willing to go through in service of Donald Trump is frankly shocking.

But, again, there is more here than just like the personal moral failings of the Republicans. They have a plan here, and that plan includes getting secretaries of state in place, in various critical states, who are willing to throw away duly cast votes. I mean, like so there is two things going on.

There is like the very public clownishness, right, where Republicans kind of be-clowned themselves to Donald Trump. But then there is the very serious attempts to not just over throw democracy but to make it so that democracy cannot happen again in 2022 and 2024. And those tracks are going in parallel. Both of those things are happening at the same time.

Yes, the gullible people might think that, you know, next week, they`re going to have a rematch and that a fool and his money are easily parted and the Republicans are happy to take their money. But what their actually doing is far more scary and it`s directly -- it`s pointed head on at taking away the rights of people that have their votes counted in the future.

REID: And you know what scares he the most, Stuart, is that if Donald Trump is able by having, you know, implanted his people all the way down the line to the people who are going to count the votes and gotten states to say, yes, we`re willing to overturn the election in 2024, because I think he`ll only run if he feels and it`s a guarantee that he`s going to win because he doesn`t like to be a loser.

Let`s just say they do that. There will be a few Liz Cheneys here and there but the most likely thing is they all roll over. I mean, do you think Mitch McConnell is not going to roll over? They`re all going to roll over if he gets back in. And then we can`t get our democracy back. We can`t get him out because the vast majority of them are going to roll over.

STEVENS: That is the plan and they`re pretty open about. It`s methodical. It`s not a coincidence that they have this series of legislations to propose in different states. People have thought about this. There is a plan to do this. You can`t change the demographic tide in America. So the only way, as you`re saying, is to change the people who will vote, who are allowed to vote and who votes can count.

I mean, this is what is happening here. And I just feel like I go around shaking people. I mean, I worked -- we know these people. As bad as you think they are, the people that are trying to do this are worse. And, please, take it seriously, as we should, because if you lose one election like this, it may be the last election that we recognize as anything we`ve grown up with in America.

REID: I agree. I 100 percent agree with you. Stuart Stevens, Elie Mystal, God bless us all and God help us. Thank you both.

Up next on THE REIDOUT, a make-or-break week for Democrats caught between a nihilistic opposition party, as we`ve just described, and obstructionist members of their party.

And as President Biden gets his booster shot, thousands of New York health workers are facing their consequences of their vaccine hostility. They`re about to lose their jobs.

Plus, the NBA`s COVID showdown with Kyrie Irving, if he`s not vaccinated, he cannot play on his own home court. And he`s not alone.

And tonight`s absolute worst, an extremist on abortion who is, again, claiming that he has a cure for rape. Yes.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:15:00]

REID: Moments ago, Senate Republicans refused to move forward with a vote that would suspend the nation`s debt limit. That`s right. Republican senators chose to move us closer to a devastating default because they want to inflict maximum pain to the Democrats. Who cares if it hurts the American people.

To be honest, none of this should come as a surprise from a party that is devoid of ideas and preoccupied with deranged lies spewed by Captain Bone Spurs. It should also come as no surprise given the fact Republicans seem to care more about cutting corporate taxes than they do about the overall financial wellbeing of this country.

Today`s vote would have addressed debts incurred under a Republican Senate House and president. During the previous administration, members of both parties voted together to raise or suspend the debt limit three times.

This is shaping to be a very busy week on Capitol Hill with Democrats juggling passage of an infrastructure bill, finalizing human infrastructure package central to Biden`s agenda and staving off a government shutdown and default.

The challenging task made worst by a nihilistic Republican Party that`s intent on sabotaging things that are desperately needed, like immigration reform, voting rights and police reform. Democrats could make these Republicans irrelevant by nuking the filibuster. Here is the problem. There are people on their own side who are standing in the way. I`m looking at you Senator Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin.

That leaves President Biden`s agenda trapped between those two competing polls. And with the midterm elections inching closer, Democrats have to wonder if failure is an acceptable outcome.

Joining me now, Jason Johnson, Professor of Journalism and Politics at Morgan State University and host of the slate podcast, A Word with Jason Johnson, and Adrienne Elrod, former Senior Aide on the Biden/Harris and Clinton/Kane campaigns.

[19:20:03]

Thank you both for being here.

Let me play you, Joe Biden, because, if there`s one thing about Joe Biden, he`s Mr. Optimistic. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Any progress on a reconciliation deal today, Mr. President? How close do you think you are?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know me. I`m a born optimist. I think things are going to go well. People are going to get it done.

And -- but I have meetings tonight, tomorrow and for the next little bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: I already know Jason is my fellow pessimist.

So, I`m going to give you a shot on this one, Adrienne. Is that optimism realistic? I mean, Democrats have not gotten through police reform, which Tim Scott has already turned against his own reform ideas. They couldn`t get through voting rights. The voting act -- voting -- the VRA is basically dead on a stretcher.

They`re now barely going to squeak through maybe on infrastructure, and they can`t get their big human infrastructure bill. What`s with the optimism?

ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, look, I think we`re lucky that our president is inherently optimistic, especially compared to his predecessor.

But, look, Joy. I mean, there`s a lot of work has got to be done. And here`s -- here are the things that we know. We know that, number one, Democrats are going to have to rely on each other to pass this agenda. We`re not going to get any Republicans. We`re certainly not going to get any Republicans when it comes to voting rights.

So we`re really going to have to rely on each other. What does that mean? We`re going to have to figure out how to make a deal. And that is what Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are working on right now. How do we actually get this legislation through, the Build Back Better agenda through, with our own caucus?

And I got to tell you, you look at where we are on the Build Back Better, compared to where we were 10, 11 years ago, when we were passing the Affordable Health Care Act, I was a chief of staff in Congress at the time, that was a very difficult piece of legislation to get through because it was widely unpopular.

This is actually a very popular bill. I mean, of course, the ACA became popular after it was passed, and people realized the benefits that this legislation provided for them. But this is totally different.

And that`s why I think it`s frustrating to see some of the moderates in our very own caucus stifle the progress here. I`m telling you, you tell me who in some of these moderates` districts is going to say, I don`t want my prescription drug costs lowered, I don`t want to expand child care access, I don`t want to expand or even provide paid leave for all.

These are very popular policies that are part of this act. And I do believe, at the end of the day, Joy, this is going to get done. But it may not happen quite as fast as we initially hoped for.

REID: Well, I mean, who in their districts? Maybe nobody there in their districts, but their donors maybe. These moderate -- these nine moderates are still calling -- they want their bill, the bill they like, to pass, those nine moderate Democrats who are saying, no, pass our bill that we like.

There`s no guarantee that progressives have gotten that, if they do that. They will get anything in return. Pramila Jayapal, Katie Porter, Ilhan Omar, and others wrote a letter, saying: "Congress now faces a choice. Advance the entirety of an agenda that gets American families the help they need or deliver only a fraction of it. That`s why we as leaders of the Congressional Progressive Caucus remain committed to voting for the infrastructure bill only after the Build Back Better Act is passed."

Cue Joe Manchin sounding a lot like a Republican. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): In a nutshell, we need to be looking at, are we moving more towards social -- to social refinement, if you will?

Now, I`m concerned about basically a society moving towards more of an entitlement mentality vs. a rewarding mentality.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: An entitlement mentality. That sounds like `80s Reaganism, Jason.

This -- the $3.5 trillion reconciliation package that Joe Manchin is calling entitlement mentality, half of people favor it. Only 25 percent oppose it. Your thoughts.

(LAUGHTER)

JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: The vast majority of people want it. It`s spread out over 10 years.

We want to talk about entitlement, we shouldn`t talk about him and his family and the benefits that he and his wife and his daughter have gotten from all sorts of government deals. We`re going to talk about that sort of level of entitlement.

But here`s the problem here. Joe Manchin has been allowed to be this guy, and Kyrsten Sinema have been allowed to be this person for months. And you have President Biden out there doing this halftime coach speech, we can rally together. We -- look, you`re down 37-3, OK? There`s not that much time left in the game, and you have let your quarterback run around the whole time like he`s running the game and not throw to anybody.

That is what we have going on right now. The Progressive Caucus is saying, we are tired of falling for the banana in the tailpipe, OK? We keep voting for things, and then they get to the Senate and they go nowhere. We`re tired of it. We actually have to show something to our constituents next year.

And here`s -- Joy, here`s what I think the real problem is. Like I think, the debt ceiling is probably going to get fixed. But when we talk about the human infrastructure bill, when we talk about the plain infrastructure bill, if these things don`t get passed by the end of the year, by like Thanksgiving time, when everybody`s getting together with their family having discussions, you`re not going to get it passed next year.

[19:25:05]

And no one is going to go out and vote next year, under voter suppressive circumstances, for a Democratic Party that says, send us some new reinforcements, and then we will actually do the things that we ran on. They have to show they can get something done with this level of power, or nobody has the incentive to give them more power after next year`s elections.

REID: And, Adrienne, that`s the problem, right?

I mean, Dianne Feinstein, to put her in that list, I think she voted no on the bill today. How do Democrats go back to voters, particularly voters of color in 2022, and say, OK, see, what happened was, we couldn`t get you voting rights, infrastructure, human infrastructure, we really couldn`t get you anything, because Joe Manchin said we couldn`t.

ELROD: Yes.

REID: That`s not really a platform...

ELROD: Yes.

JOHNSON: Right.

REID: When you -- people can barely get to vote at all.

ELROD: That`s correct, Joy.

And I think the bottom line is, we`re not going to, because we have got to get these things passed. And if that means we reform the filibuster, or we amend it on certain pieces of legislation, like voting rights, we have to do that. I think President Biden knows that.

Look, he wants to go into the midterms with some wins under his belt, but he also made promises to the American people that he`s got to deliver on. And he knows that.

So, however this approach happens, I think Jason`s right. This may not happen in the next week. It may not happen in the next 10 days. But you -- I think you will see some progress made over that over the course of at least the next two months, I would think, because members of Congress, especially a lot of these moderates, they don`t want to have to go home and face their constituents, who say to them, we elected you to deliver on the Biden agenda.

Biden received more votes than any other candidate running for president in the United States history. So his agenda is something that is supported by the majority of the American people. And these guys don`t want to go home and hear from their constituents time and time again, why didn`t you give me paid leave? Why didn`t you expand my child care?

The things that are in this bill, the components of the Build Back Better Act are tangible components that the American people desperately need.

We have also got to keep in mind, Joy -- you know this very well -- we had essentially no progress under Donald Trump on anything. The only thing he passed with a tax cut for the ultra-wealthy and for the corporations.

REID: Right.

ELROD: So, we have got a lot of work to be done.

And, by the way, this bill is paid for. That`s the other thing that`s so frustrating to me to see that people talk about the cost. It`s paid for over 10 years. So, I do think we will get some progress.

REID: But, see, that`s the thing, is that we always -- right.

We always talk about the pay-fors, rather than what it does, right, on the Democratic side.

ELROD: Yes, exactly.

REID: Let`s play the -- the big gun has come in. President Obama has waiting on the Build Back Better Act. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: At the overall package, it`s got a headline price tag of $3.5 trillion. But that`s not a single year. This is spread out over a number of years.

And, most importantly, it`s paid for by asking the wealthiest of Americans, who have benefited incredibly over the last several decades, and even in the midst of a pandemic saw their wealth and assets rise enormously, asking them to pay a few percentage points more in taxes in order to make sure that we have an economy that`s fair for everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Jason, and kudos Robin Roberts for scoring that interview.

I would like to believe that was enough to move minds and hearts. It might have been in like 2009. I don`t know if it is today.

JOHNSON: Right. Right.

REID: I feel like the base is D-O-N-E, done, if Democrats can`t deliver anything. I don`t care what Obama says. That`s just my cynical opinion.

Your thoughts?

JOHNSON: So, back in 2009, there was this great show on that was called "The Closer," right? And that`s what Obama was, the closer.

Like, he could come in, and he could give a great speech, like Kyra Sedgwick, and everybody is like, oh, my God, we love him, and then it would work right/?

But, see, we`re not we`re not there now. People were very angry at him.

I think one of the things that we have realized in this is that the former President Obama getting health care through and the stimulus package is really amazing, when you look at, in contrast, what`s happening today.

REID: Truly.

JOHNSON: But here`s the problem, Joy.

It`s like you have so many people who are dead set in their positions, who, rather than seeing the circumstances of a slow-moving coup, and a pandemic that has ravaged the American economy and still continues to stress people out, they`re still fighting as if it is 2009.

They still think these are arguments that they can go and work out in retail politics. And we`re no longer there politically. And I have to say this, because this is important. For the Democrats who say, we shouldn`t have to play at this line, you got to bring in reinforcements, which means passing the For the People Act and the John Lewis Voting Rights Act.

The only reason that you can keep people like Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin from having this kind of power is if you allow the voters to actually vote and give the Democrats the leads they need so that they don`t have to fight at the margins.

REID: I need Democrats to hear that. Well, maybe they will. We will see.

Jason Johnson, Adrienne Elrod, you`re both great. Thank you very much.

Next on THE REIDOUT: Repercussions for the anti-vaxxers are now kicking in. Many of them are going to lose their jobs.

So, how do the rest of us vaccinated folks protect ourselves from them?

[19:30:03]

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: President Biden received his COVID booster shot today in a public display at the White House.

The president again urged those who are still unvaccinated to get their shots, if not to save their own lives than to save the lives of those around them. Now, you would think that`d be reason enough for all Americans get vaccinated.

But for tens of thousands of health care workers in New York, today is the day that they need to decide whether they get their first shot or risk losing their job. That`s because the state imposed a vaccine mandate for all health care workers. And, as of last week, up to 72,000 were not yet vaccinated.

Teachers and school workers in New York City now face the same decision. A separate citywide vaccine mandate was just allowed to proceed by a federal appeals panel after it was blocked last week by a federal judge. The consequences will be the same in the nation`s largest school system, get a vaccine or get a new job.

Joining me now is Mara Gay, a member of "The New York Times" editorial board, and Dr. Lipi Roy, COVID medical director for Housing Works in New York City.

Thank you both for being here.

Dr. Roy, I`m going to start with you.

This is where the consequences and the mandates kick in. What do you make of the fact that New York City is going to be pretty strict? New York City already has -- this is two for my producers. They already require vaccine - - proof of vaccines for dining indoors, for going in the club, for the fitness classes indoors, pools in the studios and indoor entertainment like movie theaters, convention centers being on Broadway, et cetera.

[19:35:19]

Does this new vaccine requirement, with those 72,000 health care workers now facing the music, is that what we need to proceed, so the rest of us are safe?

DR. LIPI ROY, MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, Joy, it`s so good to be with you again.

Yes, that`s unfortunately what has to happen. If you have such a large swathe of people who are still not abiding by public health guidelines, recommendations by health leaders, health authorities like the CDC, the FDA, the NIH, then this is what needs to happen.

And I`m all in support of mandates. And I will tell you. I will share with you, at Housing Works, when we implemented the New York City mandate, which started a few weeks earlier, two of my senior staff, a senior nurse and a senior nurse practitioner, who all happened to be women of color, who were staunchly against vaccines for the past eight months, once that vaccine mandate kicked in, or weekly testing on your own time, guess what, they miraculously got vaccinated.

So, I think -- I mean, I`m all for -- mandates work. Health policies work. The problem, however -- and you`re going to see this already -- is that there`s a threat of a lot of health care workers not showing up, leaving a job because they`re going to get terminated.

And, unfortunately, that`s what we saw a little bit as well, when H.R. sent a notice to three nurses, suspending them. And what happened is that it left one nurse alone to take care of 100 patients and do -- plus up to 26...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Yes.

ROY: Luckily, we got a backup.

But that`s the problem with these kind of mandates, though, as well.

REID: Well, so here`s the thing, Mara.

I mean, if people decide they want to quit over this in New York City, well, guess what? You will not get unemployment benefits. New York will not extend unemployment benefits to health care workers who are fired for just -- for not doing a mandate.

So, at this point, unless you have a doctor-approved reason for not getting -- for not getting vaccinated, you`re going to have to do it, or you`re not going to be able to collect unemployment. You have police officers who are quitting. Dozens of people in Massachusetts quit over the vaccine mandate, according to the state police association in August.

They`re quitting. And I don`t know if they`re going to be able to collect unemployment. But there are some people who are saying, I`d rather be unemployed than vaccinated.

I guess that`s just what we`re going to have to live with.

MARA GAY, EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yes, this is really time to hold the line.

But the interesting thing is, for days now, what I have been hearing from the vast majority of New Yorkers in these professions who are vaccinated is an immense amount of relief, because they have done the right thing consistently to protect themselves, their family members, and those who they serve, whether in public schools or in health care settings.

And they deserve to have the freedom to breathe well, because they are COVID-free, the freedom to live their lives in health and dignity, without being more terrified than necessary, frankly, of this deadly pandemic.

I mean, it is important to note that, despite the fact that it`s about 70,000 workers who are under these mandates and haven`t gotten vaccinated yet New York, that is a large and concerning number.

REID: Yes.

GAY: This is the right policy, I believe.

But at the same time, New York`s a huge state. So we`re talking about millions of people who`ve done the right thing.

REID: Yes.

GAY: And, again, I think this is the right policy.

And it`s going to change some hearts and minds, maybe by force.

REID: It will change behavior, because, at this point, it doesn`t matter what you think. You Are either going to have your job or you`re not.

And I think for a lot of people who are frustrated with this argument, I think people are cool with that.

And we`re seeing -- Dr. Roy, we`re seeing more people seeing -- showing up with ivermectin issues. There have been two -- two deaths suspected for people treating themselves. I mean, we`re at a point now where it`s madness.

But I really want to just get both of you to comment very quickly. This is Joy Behar on "The View" today, because there was this whole issue about whether the -- whether two members of "The View" tested positive for COVID, which caused the dust-up this week. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOY BEHAR, "THE VIEW": We were all given numerous, numerous COVID tests. I mean, so many.

I am thrilled to report that Sunny and Ana`s Friday results turned out to be false positives, and everyone is safe...

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BEHAR: ... healthy and COVID-free, OK?

No one`s got it. It was a mistake of some sort.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: How is that even possible, Dr. Roy? How can that happen that these two women are tested just before they`re interviewing the vice president, and they suddenly test positive and then test negative? I don`t get it.

ROY: Yes, so it`s a little frustrating.

So, it depends. I have several questions. So, what kind of test did they get? Did they get that more accurate test, one that was higher sensitivity and specificity, i.e., the PCR test?

[19:40:07]

That has a very high -- it has very high accuracy. Or did they just get a rapid test, which has a high false negative?

So I really don`t know. But I will tell you, you have to rely on the testing, because, if the test is positive, they need to quarantine for up to 10 days. So, the testing is an issue.

But really quickly on the ivermectin, it`s very concerning that people are taking this medication that is not FDA-approved to treat COVID. Those two people were the people that died among 14 people who are hospitalized in New Mexico because of ivermectin poisoning.

One of them died from kidney failure, which is a known effect of poisoning from ivermectin. It needs to stop.

REID: Yes.

Just get vaccinated. It`s a lot easier. And you would keep your new job.

Mara Gay, Dr. Lipi Roy, thank you very much.

Coming up: a standoff in the NBA, as some players refuse to vax up ahead of the new season. One Hall of Famer says the solution is simple. Remove those players from their teams.

That is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:45:12]

REID: New York`s vaccine requirement has brought the NBA`s behind-the- scenes battle over vaccination into public view.

The league does not require players to be vaccinated, but local rules in New York City and San Francisco that require proof of vaccination for large indoor spaces means unvaccinated players for the city`s teams, the New York Knicks and the Brooklyn Nets and the Golden State Warriors, cannot play on their home courts.

And over the weekend, the NBA denied a request for a religious exemption for Warriors player Andrew Wiggins. The NBA says 90 percent of the league is vaccinated. The New York Knicks say their entire roster is vaccinated, but not the Brooklyn Nets, with superstar Kyrie Irving highlighting the NBA vaccine issues.

Irving did not attend the Nets media day today because of New York City`s vaccine protocols. And he wouldn`t address if he expects to play at home, saying he wanted to keep his vaccination status private.

A report in "Rolling Stone" looked into the hold the anti-vaccine contingent currently has over the NBA, and notes that Irving has been liking and following conspiracy theorists online alleging secret societies implanting vaccines to connect black people to a master computer for -- quote -- "a plan of Satan" -- for real -- while his aunt suggested Irving could skip Nets home games this season.

Matt Sullivan, who wrote that story, joins me. He`s also the author of "Can`t Knock the Hustle." Also joining me is Jemele Hill, contributing writer for "The Atlantic" and host of the podcast "Jemele Hill Is Unbothered."

This is a wild story, Matt. I read through it today and had to go back and reread some lines in it. It appears that Kyrie Irving is, in general, a conspiracy theorist. He got in some heat before for questioning whether the Earth is round or flat. And in that previous issue, he admitted to going down some YouTube rabbit holes over whether the Earth is round or flat.

So he is, in general, prone to sort of conspiracy theories. What scares me is, it seems to be he`s not a lone contingent in the NBA. How big is this anti-vax contingent?

MATT SULLIVAN, "ROLLING STONE" CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, as you said, Joy, the NBA does have 90 percent of players vaxxed and counting. But that`s the lower rate than the conservative NFL.

And my reporting shows that the NBA has an almost secret society of straight up anti-vaxxers. I report in my book that some players originally denied that the virus even existed. Now Kyrie`s family is out here talking about -- quote -- "Dr. Falsey."

Another player was trying to explain to me for my story in "Rolling Stone" that masks don`t work. And then there`s a theory floating around about Moderna mind control that doesn`t deserve amplification here.

But, last year, if the NBA was all in on science and this pandemic-proof bubble, the hoopers are sick of testing. They don`t want to trust the science. They don`t want to get vaxxed. They don`t want to get tested on their days off. In fact, Joy, they want to go to the club. So it`s really a race against time here and fake news for the NBA to basically shame its vaccine deniers into avoiding that next kind of superstar super-spreader event.

REID: You know, what worries me about this, Jemele, is that we`re talking about black players, who have a lot of fans and a lot of influence and are parroting some of the anti-vax stuff that we hear just in our circles.

And if they`re saying it, if Kyrie Irving is saying it`s just a conspiracy, it`s very hard for you to get your cousin to get vaccinated as well.

There were stories in this about Kyrie Irving going home to South Dakota, going to school events unmasked, and then having to like alter the photos because he was violating, like, rules, going into schools, meeting with young people.

This is terrifying. These are people who are open to not just getting COVID themselves, but maybe giving it to other people.

JEMELE HILL, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, and that`s the part that I wish more the players who are unvaxxed would really understand. It`s not just their influence, but their ability to really highlight and be positive role models.

Like you mentioned, like, it was very moving, the fact that Kyrie Irving has found this connection with his Native American roots. Well, it just so happens that the COVID rate among Native American -- Native Americans is awful. And he has a real opportunity there to talk to people in his community, not just the African-American community, but the Native American community, about vaccinations.

The other thing too that`s so amazing and powerful about this misinformation is, they will trust a YouTube rabbit hole, they will trust Facebook memes, they will trust other anecdotal bad evidence, when the best evidence is right in front of them.

REID: Yes.

HILL: Ninety percent of the league is vaccinated.

And Bradley Beal, who today talked about how he wasn`t vaccinated, was so worried about the after-effects. Look at the people on your damn team. There`s a player in the NBA, Karl-Anthony Towns, who has suffered an imaginable -- unimaginable losses from COVID, losing close relatives, losing his mother. He himself had COVID, lost 50 pounds, thought about completely retiring from basketball.

[19:50:11]

He was in such a dark place because of what this disease has done to his family. Talk to him. Stop talking to YouTube. And so, to me, that is what I don`t understand, is that they have top medical experts. They have other players. They certainly believe other players about all sorts of other things.

They can see the evidence for themselves, and yet they continue to be in this space of ignorance.

REID: Is there something different that the WNBA, the NFL and even the NHL are doing, Matt, that they have got such high vaccination rates compared to what we tend to think of as the most sort of politically liberal of all of the leagues?

SULLIVAN: Well, the NFL is pretty big.

So if you talk about the numbers, we probably got 50 or 60 NBA guys who are not vaxxed here that we`re talking about. And NBA league sources told me that, if it comes to it, they will sweep state databases to root out forged I.D.s, which have become a problem reportedly in the NFL.

And someone like Kyrie is not going to get paid for missing games. And he`s got to balance that, right? That didn`t stop him from taking a leave of absence in January, precipitated by the Capitol riot and the lack of charges against the cop who shot Jacob Blake.

And when Kyrie came back, he and his teammate Kevin Durant, they skipped the national anthem. Now, nobody really noticed that until I did, but I think these players are on notice now. Are they going to stand for justice and for science?

Or, as Jemele said, are they going to kind of pick and choose their battles of influence?

REID: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was pretty harsh. He came down and he said, these -- they have given up their role as role models at this point.

But I have to say that, as out front and some NBA players, and especially WNBA, but some NBA players, have been about things like voting rights, it`s been pretty silent. There aren`t too many prominent NBA players that are getting out there and saying, let`s get vaxxed and doing that same kind of activism.

It`s troubling. And we know that there`s a disproportionate rate of death among black people and indigenous people, et cetera, if they get COVID. I don`t know. I don`t really have a question there. I -- just I`m going to leave, let you have the last word, Jemele, because it worries me.

HILL: What I would -- I understand why it would be very concerning.

But I think there are rules of sort of unofficial decorum in the NBA. You don`t talk about a guy`s money. And I think that there is this fine line that a lot of players are trying to balance. They all keep saying, this is a personal decision.

Actually, it`s not a personal decision, because if Kyrie Irving misses these home games, and considering how close the Brooklyn Nets were to going to the NBA finals last year and possibly winning a title, if this costs them their title chances, this is costing people`s legacies. This is costing other people jobs, because everybody doesn`t have the job security that he has on his own team.

And I would say that for Andrew Wiggins as well. The Golden State Warriors have the fifth best odds to win the NBA title, meaning that they are in play, all right? So, if he winds up missing these games because he`s not vaccinated and it costs them, then you`re costing people a lot more.

So it can`t be a personal decision when it infects -- and then when it affects an entire community and your team and your organization.

REID: That`s right.

And your hometown fans. You can`t even play in front of your hometown fans because of this. And the conspiracy theories, it`s too much.

Matt Sullivan, thank you very much. Great article. Jemele Hill, you`re always great. Thank you.

Up next: Remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R-TX): So goal number one in the state of Texas is to eliminate rape, so that no woman, no person will be a victim of rape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Yes, it gets a lot worse.

Tonight`s "Absolute Worst" is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:57:39]

REID: Remember that time Greg Abbott justified his draconian six-week abortion ban that has zero exceptions for rape and incest by straight up claiming he could eliminate rape?

Well, yesterday, Chris Wallace pressed him on that, asking if it was acceptable to tell Texans that they don`t need to worry about the law because he can somehow eliminate rape, and also whether he would sign a bill introduced by a Republican lawmaker including those exceptions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBOTT: Survivors of sexual assault, they deserve support, care and compassion.

But, separately from that, Chris, I got to point out about the ways that I have fought to go -- to arrest and apprehend and try to eliminate rape.

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST, "FOX NEWS SUNDAY": Are you saying that you will not sign an exception for rape and incest?

ABBOTT: Well, first, I got to tell you, Chris, you`re making a hypothetical there`s not going to happen, because that bill is not going to reach my desk.

But, second, again, the goal is to protect the life of every child with a heartbeat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Look, people will do not need to share their specific reasons for getting an abortion. And it`s worth stating over and over again that a significant majority, 62 percent of Americans, according to a new Monmouth poll, think abortion should be legal, while 35 percent think it should be illegal.

But only 11 percent think there should be zero exceptions for rape and incest. Greg Abbott is so desperate to get reelected that he`s pandering to an extremist minority, instead of actually governing. And because his near total abortion ban just wasn`t enough, Abbott also just signed a law restricting access to abortion medications.

Thanks to Abbott, abortion clinics are filling up in neighboring states, like Oklahoma, leading to a longer wait time for appointments. As "The New York Times" points out, the longer women have to wait, the more expensive their procedures become, not to mention the money it costs Texans to leave the state and take off work, that is, those privileged enough to able to do so.

But Greg Abbott doesn`t actually care about Texans. He says he`s worried about the lives of fetuses, while his state fails children and their parents over and over again. Texas is dead last when it comes to health insurance coverage for women. And it also has one of the worst rates of food security -- food insecurity, whether families have enough to eat.

So, Greg Abbott, for your continued bizarre argument that you know how to eliminate rape, but, more importantly, your determination to be as extremist as you possibly can when it comes to abortion, among other things, you`re tonight`s "Absolute Worst."

And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.