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Transcript: The ReidOut, 7/6/21

Guests: Val Demings, Matthew Dowd, Nikole Hannah-Jones, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Ronan Farrow


It`s been six months since the January 6 insurrection. Paul Gosar`s brother calls him a white supremacist. Republicans continue to downplay insurrection. FBI releases new video of January 6 assaults on officers. Nikole Hannah-Jones & Ta-Nehisi Coates will join Howard University faculty this fall. Britney Spears` court-appointed attorney filed a motion to resign just two weeks after Spears told the court that she wanted to find her own attorney, and a day after her longtime manager resigned.


JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: That does it for me. "THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid is up next. Hey, Joy.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: How are you doing, Jason? Thank you for highlighting that. Rev, is the real one, been real since the 1980s or since he was a kid, really. But, yes, thank you for highlighting that. Have a wonderful evening.

All right, good evening everyone. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight on a solemn anniversary. Six months since far-right supporters of the former president stormed the U.S. Capital. While many Republican have done everything they can to downplay what actually happened, some are downright proud of their role in attacking American democracy as they continue to spread the big lie.

Take Alabama Republican Mo Brooks, whose lawyers said in a court filing that Brooks believes that the 2020 elections were the subject of voter fraud and election theft. Brooks is one of three lawmakers who Stop the Steal Organizer Ali Alexander says help him organized the rally along with Arizona Congressman Andy Biggs and Paul Gosar.

Gosar has been in the news lately for his ties to white supremacist Nick Fuentes with no consequences from Republican leaders. The New York Times calls its unapologetic association with Fuentes and his white nationalist American first organization, the most vivid example of the Republican Party`s growing acceptance of extremism. It`s so bad that Gosar`s brother called him a white supremacist on this very show for the whole nation to hear.


DAVID GOSAR, PAUL GOSAR BROTHER (voice over): These people are white supremacists. Ok. You don`t get to say you`re not a racist when you are cavorting with racists, when you`re giving, amplifying your message, when you`re encouraging them, when you`re refusing to denounce them.


REID: And because literally everything is connected. Ali Alexander has said that he collaborator with Fuentes on his Stop the Steal movement.

Meanwhile, the Republican who are openly embracing extremism has spend the past the six months attempting to gaslight America into thinking maybe the insurrection wasn`t that violent or that the FBI or Antifa or the woke mob are responsible instead. It`s gotten to the point where Republican voters are actually blaming President Biden and Democrats more than they blame Trump or Republicans for what happened.

Republicans have done everything they can to fight a committee that would investigate what happened. And there`s still a lot of unanswered questions, a lot of unanswered question out there. I mean, the FBI are still searching for suspects. They released a host of new video today of assaults on police officers, some of which maybe disturbing to watch.

Let`s see one video, it includes cops getting tackled and pummeled to the ground, projectiles thrown into the crowd and insurrectionists snatching police officers` batons right out of their hands. The FBI still don`t know who left the pipe bombs at DNC and RNC the night before the insurrection and we still don`t know the status of the investigation into Ali Alexander, though the Washington Post reported last February that the government is investigating potential ties between those physical involve in the attack on the Capitol and individual who`s may have influenced them, such as Roger Stone and Alex Jones and Alexander.

And questions remain about whether Republican law makers gave the insurrectionist tours in the days leading up to the attack.

Joining me now is Congresswoman Val Demings of Florida. She was an impeachment manager in the first Trump impeachment and she`s a candidate for the United States.

And, Congresswoman, I have to start with you on the open white supremacy that`s being flaunted at this point by Paul Gosar. His own brother said he`s a white supremacist. I don`t understand how you, as a black woman, or really anyone can serve alongside people who are embracing white supremacy and not even embarrassed about it.

REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): Well, Joy, good to be with you. And, look, I did an op-ed a few months ago, where I said, bring back Shane (ph), because we know that white supremacist have always been amongst us, which is sad enough in itself. But there used to be a time when certainly members of Congress didn`t really want everybody to know it.

But, you know, we know them by the fruit that they bear. We also know what happened on January 6th, although we`ve been asked to not believe our eyes and our ears. This is a sad day. It`s a sad reminder of what happened six months ago. And regardless of members of Congress who are white supremacist or choose to hang out with them, regardless of those who helped to plan or give tours or helped to incite, we are going to get to the bottom of it. And I am so glad that the speaker has empanelled this elect committee. We are going to get to the bottom of it.

REID: And I do have a question for you sort on law enforcement kind of theme, but does it surprise you -- and, you know, in Florida it`s a small world, as you and I both know, that people like Marco Rubio who you`re running against in the United States Senate, who tweets bible verses every day for random reasons, these people aren`t saying to themselves, I don`t want to be associated with white supremacists. Where is the speaker? Where`s Marco Rubio? Where are all of these people who constantly lecturing us about what history we`re allowed to learn? Why aren`t they saying anything?

DEMINGS: Well you know, Joy, a long time ago someone told me I`d rather see a sermon in a day than to hear one. So Rubio can send out all of the bible verses that he wants to. We`re looking at not what he says but what he does. We`re talking about a man, as you`ve indicated, thank you for bringing it up, who has not said one word to denounce white supremacist since he`s been in office, by the way. We`re talking about a man who voted against an independent commission that would investigate the insurrection that occurred on 1/6.

And so, again, we know them by the fruits that they bear. Rubio has not delivered. And, as you know, that is exactly why I am running. Florida deserves better.

REID: Let me read the statement that President Biden issued today. He said, six months later, we can say unequivocally that democracy did prevail, and that we much all continue the work to protect and to preserve it. That requires people of goodwill and courage to stand up to the hate, the lies, and the extremism that led to this vicious attack, including determining what happened so that we can remember it and not burry it hoping that we forget. We`re seeing Republicans trying to bury it.

But there are issues that are frightening, I think. Law enforcement being involved fighting other law enforcement, demanding that they did not follow orders, members of the military being involved. Where would you start? If this was a police investigation and Val Demings was still the sheriff, where would you start in terms of this investigation? Would it be with the lawmakers and their role? Where would you start?

DEMINGS: Everybody counts, Joy, but as I`ve said many times before, everybody is accountable. And that includes everyone who had any kind of role in what happened on January 6th. That includes the former president. That includes the members of the Senate. That includes the members of the House. That involves military, former or current, and law enforcement, former or current. We start at the beginning.

We know that this did not just all happen on January 6th but it had been planned for weeks and months. Who was involved in the planning? Who was involved in funding it? Who was involved in helping to incite it? Some of them we saw who had no shame again on camera on that day. But who else was involved in it? We saw the president, we saw the members of the Senate, we saw the members of the House, we saw the president`s attorney. But we start at beginning, who planned it, how did it happen, who funded it, who executed it?

We`ve seen over 500 arrests from the FBI of those who actually were physically involved in beating police officers down and terrorizing members of Congress and the staff -- their staff and the people who work in the Capitol. But we want to know the complete story and we`re going to get to the bottom of it. And that`s exactly what the select committee will do with or without Kevin McCarthy, the minority leader, we take that word for granted a lot, with or without his help.

REID: Yes. It almost say like a Floridian, Representative Val Demings thank you very much more being here. Really appreciate you making some time.

With me now is Matthew Dowd, Chief Strategist for 2004 Bush/Cheney campaign and Founder of Country over Party. I`m so glad that you were available to talk with us tonight, because, Matthew, it feels like things have actually gotten worst since January 6 honestly.

You know, I remember reading the reports about when Trump began his ran for office. He inspired an uptick in white nationalism, in violent white nationalism. The chatter was this guy is our guy. He`s gone now.

But even without his presence daily presence on social media we now have members of Congress openly paling around with people who marched in Charlottesville, Nick Fuentes, who openly say, we have got to return the United States to being a white, Christian country, who just say that openly and congresspeople, they`re not even embarrassed to be around them. What in the world is going on?

MATTHEW DOWD, CHIEF STRATEGIST BUSH-CHENEY 2004: Well, I absolutely agree with you, Joy, that I think it is much worse than it was on January 6th. It`s much worse than it was in November. It`s much worse after January 6th. And part of the problem is because there`s been no accountability, it`s given permission to do more of this. And not only it`s given permission to just average people out there who might do crazy things, it`s allowed the Republicans just to continue this big lie that they`ve pushed across.

I was -- yesterday, I was in Kentucky. I decided to go to Lincoln`s birthplace and his boyhood home. And I was reflecting about it because one of the things Lincoln said was America will never be destroyed from outside. America will destroy itself. And I think that`s what I fear about right now.

And one of the things if you think about this, what would happen if after 9/11 we had done nothing?

REID: Right.

DOWD: Think about that, if we had done nothing after 9/11. And to me, though there was less loss of life on January 6th, January 6th was worse than 9/11 because it`s continued to rip our country apart and give permission for people to pursue autocratic means. And so I think we`re in a much worse place than we`re been and as I`ve said, I think to you before, I think we`re in the most perilous point in time since 1861 in the advent of the civil war.

REID: I do too. I do too. And it frightens me. You know what scares me the most, Matthew, is that I`m not sure if most, at least elected Democrats in Washington agree with us are as afraid as we are.

You know, I said yesterday, talking with Malcolm Nance and Susan Del Percio, a Republican strategist, if you break down what this looks like to me, it looks directly like fascism. It looks like Mussolini`s Italy, the brown shirts, the violence against our Capitol, the attempts to over throw the government, the centering of the white citizens that happen to be the top citizens or else the country dies.

And to see the Republican Party either because of cowardice or because they agree with it say, we`re going to do that, we`re going to go with that. If that`s what it takes for us to have power, then, fine, we`ll take fascism. I don`t know what you do with the country where one political party decides that and you`ve only really got two.

DOWD: Well, the only thing you can do is rid the country of that political party. And it`s completely rid of it and make it suffer devastating losses in a series of elections. To me, there`s no moral argument we can make against Republicans who`ve decided that moral positioning doesn`t matter anymore.

I was thinking of this, you know J.D. Vance, the charlatan who`s running for U.S. Senate in Ohio, who`s completely -- has created fiction and says whatever, he said something I actually agree at his announcement. And what he said was the Republican establishment doesn`t care about its voters and thinks their voters are stupid and thinks their voters are bigots. What he should have said is, I don`t care, like all of the other Republicans.

What you have in this country right now, and you know this, if you`re in a relationship and somebody constantly lies to you, somebody does all kind of things that shows you they don`t care about them, they think you`re a yahoo, right? And that`s what the Republicans think their base is bigoted and their base is stupid. And that`s why they keep doing what they`re doing.

REID: Yes. I mean, the people -- I`m just looking here at my list of people who have influenced now. Mike Lindell, who I think he needs analysis not a public position. You know, obviously Donald Trump --

DOWD: He needs a couch and his pillow.

REID: He needs a couch and his pillow. Madison Cawthorne who -- the stolen valor guy, Mo Brooks, you know, it`s as if the Republican Party, in which you served for quite a long time, has decided that the only people worthy of elevation are the based (ph) people, the least moral people, that it almost is a virtue to be awful.

And I wonder if you think that that is a reflection of something that`s happening in the base? Is it because people have been locked down for a year? What is going on in the party, at the base of it?

DOWD: Well, you know, one of the expressions that I grew up with is what is the purpose of locks, locks are to keep honest people honest, right? And guard rails in politics are to keep decent, good people in their heart aimed in the right direction. And when you lose the guard rails, and people have human nature and I can castigate a lot of people for a lot of things, but our leaders are supposed to give guard rails to humanity and it`s worsen, and stop it from its worst impulses.

What you have now is a sprint downhill to the basis amount. And actually think today is worse than Donald Trump in the four years he was president, they`ve taken it to a whole another level. It`s like somebody was successful in Section 8 and now they`re going to act even crazier because they want their own Section 8.

So every single step, even the people you and I thought would stand up to it just don`t care. They just don`t care.

REID: Yes. They absolutely do not. And they`re elevating people like Marjorie Taylor Greene. This is their leadership, it is worse than Trump. Matthew Dowd, always appreciating being able to talk to you. Thank you so much.

And up next on THE REIDOUT, two really, really big gust, Nikole Hannah- Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates, join me on the same day both announce, both of them, that they`ve join in the faculty at Howard University. A major, major, major, major, major (INAUDIBLE) for Howard. It is Hannah Nikole`s first cable interview since Salem (ph) University of North Carolina, no, she`s declining their belated offer for tenure.

And Ronan Farrow is here, with his new investigative reporting on Britney Spears, the conservatorship fight and the sudden resignation of her manager.

And tonight`s absolute worst, pretending that you support the police, just for the politics, where your action on January 6th showed you really don`t.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.


REID: In a major recruiting coup, Howard University announced that Journalist Nikole Hannah-Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates, both McArthur geniuses, are joining the faculty in the fall. Hannah-Jones will become the inaugural night chair in race and reporting at Howard. She will also create a new initiative aimed at training inspiring journalist and has already secured nearly $15 million to launch the effort.

Coates will be a writer and residence in the university`s college of arts and sciences, and hold the Sterling Brown chair in the English department. Howard`s win counts as a loss to university of North Carolina. Hannah- Jones, the Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist for her work on the New York Times` 1619 Project and a UNC alum was originally set to fill the schools own prestigious night chair in race and investigative journalism.

After rigorous review and recommendation followed by howls of complaints from right-wingers offended by the 1619 Project, Hannah-Jones was first denied tenure by the board of trustees.

That sparked a fierce backlash, which led to the university -- led the university to reverse course and offer her tenure last week. For the record, the professorship has always been a tenured position.

Breaking her silence, Hannah-Jones issued a statement today that laid out in great detail how painful this entire process has been. She writes: "Why would I want to teach at a university whose top leadership chose to remain silent, to refuse transparency, to fail to publicly advocate that I be treated like every other Knight Chair before me? These times demand courage. And those who have held the most power in this situation have exhibited the least of it.

"The burden of working for racial justice is laid on the very people bearing the brunt of the injustice, and not the powerful people who maintain it. I say to you, I refuse."

And joining me now is the brand-new inaugural Knight Chair in Race and Reporting at Howard University, Nikole Hannah-Jones, incoming Sterling Brown Chair in the Department of English at Howard University, Ta-Nehisi Coates.

I am so jealous that I`m no longer teaching this semester. I finished my semester last year, just in the nick of time, at Howard.


REID: But welcome, welcome, welcome to the Howard family. I`m so proud of both of you and excited.

I want to start with you, Nikole.

You wrote this phenomenal piece, and I hope everyone will read it, in which you really work through the pain of being denied this opportunity at the place where you went to graduate school -- you`re an alum -- and how much you said the university gave you and fed into you and sowed into you, to only have this happen.

I just want to just for a moment talk to us about how that felt, to have that -- go through that whole process, only to be told no tenure?

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, CREATOR, THE 1619 PROJECT: Thank you for having us on tonight. And thanks for the conversation.

It was humiliating. It was deeply hurtful. And it was -- it was enraging, as you know, you don`t grow up a black child in this country without being told that you have to work twice as hard to get half as far, that you have to be twice as good.

But I have been that. And to do everything that you are told to do to be successful, and then have them change the rules at the end at a school that I am an alum of and for a job that I didn`t seek out, but that I was recruited for, it just -- it just confirms my life`s work, everything that Ta-Nehisi and I write about, about how black people are treated in this country and how, even if you follow all of their rules, in the end, it`s not going to guarantee that you will be treated fairly.

And that`s why I fought this. That`s why I demanded the vote. And that`s why I ultimately made the decision to walk away.

REID: And the thing is that we`re kind of taught -- and you talked about this a little bit as well. Those of us who went to PWIs, and not to HBCUs, undergrad, you have in your head growing up that the pinnacle is to go to fill in the blanks, the school of your dreams, Harvard, Yale, whatever school it is.

And I was talking with Jason Johnson -- he was hosting Ari`s show today -- about the fact that, set us back a generation, the schools that were producing the greatest minds in American history, the minds that broke the back of segregation and the rules that had been in this country, in place since the 1619, which is why you wrote that project, the rules that excluded us, were -- came from HBCUs.

Do you feel like your going to Howard and saying no to UNC, after they belatedly offered you tenure, do you think that that`s going to spark more young people to change the vision in their minds to Howard?

HANNAH-JONES: I certainly hope so. And I know that Ta-Nehisi hopes so as well.

I mean, look, I chose Notre Dame because I felt, as a black woman, I had to have this certain credential, that they -- if I wanted white society to believe I was actually intelligent and capable, then I needed to have an elite white institution on my resume.

And I hated my time at Notre Dame. It was traumatizing. I haven`t been back there since 1999. It`s the first place I was ever called the N-word was on that campus.

And so we have to -- we have to get to the point where we ask ourselves, we deserve to be at those places, absolutely, but is that the best thing for us? And so I certainly hope that us making this decision a choice, right -- this is not a consolation prize for me. This is what I wanted.

I decided I was going to go to a historically black college. I had other options, and I didn`t want to go anywhere else, that other students will realize, as you said, Howard University has played, of any kind of academic institution in this country, played the largest role in black people achieving rights of any institution in this country, right?

The tradition of doctors, lawyers, professionals coming out of HBCUs still, it`s an amazing tradition to be a part of. And we don`t need to feel that we have to get validation from these other institutions. We can come home and build our own.

REID: Yes.

And, Ta-Nehisi, I have to bring you in here.

And, again -- and I want to thank you, because I know you don`t do a ton of TV. So, I`m very honored to get to talk to you tonight.



TA-NEHISI COATES, AUTHOR, "BETWEEN THE WORLD AND ME": Can you tell by my lighting?


REID: We`re going to work on that. We`re going to send you a ring light. You got a great new job, so we`re going to get you a ring light.

COATES: Seriously. We got to do something here.


REID: We got -- no, we got you to hook you up.

I feel like I`m talking to the T`Challa and Okoye of academia right now. So, Wakanda forever.


REID: You have written so searingly about the theft that has undergirded American society, right, the plunder, as you have put it.

And I think part of that has been psychic, right? It has been for so long accepting the bland narrative that lionized these founders as sort of a bedtime story, rather than confront the real pain that`s in the history that built us, to be strong, as we are.

Do you think that this chapter teaches the people at UNC anything about the ramifications, the consequences of that plunder? Or do you think they say, good, two less problematic black people that we -- that have -- that are going to tell our poor white students who are so fragile that they can`t handle the truth? They won`t tell them that now.

What do you think they learn?

COATES: Right.

Well, I think one of the things that was clear in Nikole`s statement, that when we used the term UNC, we`re talking about a fairly big community. UNC is not merely its board of trustees. UNC is the students who protested on behalf of Nikole.

REID: Yes.

COATES: UNC is the dean at the School of Journalism, Dean King, who fought on behalf of Nikole.

UNC is the Department of Journalism there is regrettably named after somebody who is the antithesis of journalism, but, nevertheless, advanced Nikole`s package.

I think that has to be said, because, Nikole, you can correct me if I`m wrong, but I believe UNC is also the oldest public university in this country. And what that means is that this too is theft, because this is an institution that black people in North Carolina and our public institutions in general that we pay into.

And what has happened is that the black students and the white students and students of all races and creeds at UNC has been denied the counsel of arguably the most decorated journalist in America right now.

REID: Yes.

COATES: Nikole Hannah-Jones, if I can just sing her praises, is not just the author of 1619. She is a Peabody winner. She is a national magazine winner. She was hot before 1619.

And as much as I`m happy that she`s coming to Howard, I`m also sad for those students.


REID: Yes. No, I am too, absolutely.


REID: Listen, she spoke at my class, and my students were mesmerized. They were afraid to ask questions. They were so absolutely mesmerized by her.

And I sent every -- all of them copies of The 1619 Project as part of their little package at the end.

But I have to ask you, to just stay with you for a moment, Ta-Nehisi, why do you think -- if you can step outside of it just for a moment, and look at what Nikole wrote, in terms of what she created, in terms of The 1619 Project, look at the things that you have written, the things Adam Serwer has written, they have been searing, but they`re just facts, right?

They`re not dangerous, in and of themselves. It`s just ideas.

Why do you think that people on the right are so terrified of these facts?

COATES: But they are -- but they are dangerous. They are. They are extremely dangerous.

The political order in this country is predicated on a bedtime story. The history is not merely something that lives outside of the politics. There`s a reason why the Confederate Flag hung over the state of South Carolina. There`s a reason why those statues were erected. They are a part of the political order. They justify the anti-democratic power that exists in this country.

And so one thing I will say about that -- and, Joy, you mentioned this -- is that HBCUs, frankly, not just Howard, whether it be Morehouse, whether it be A&T...

REID: Yes.

COATES: ... whether it be FAMU, whether it be Coppin, whether it be Morgan, whether it be, we have always been redoubts.

REID: Throw Bethune in there. Don`t forget Bethune-Cookman.


COATES: Bethune-Cookman. They can all -- Spelman. Let`s go. I mean, the whole community out, because it`s not just Howard.

These have always redoubts and places where one would say a more truthful, more accurate and more, as it turns out, searing version of America was rendered to its students. And I think that`s important.

REID: And to come back to you, Nikole, do you fear that parts of white America are just going to further retreat into the bedtime story, that this rejection of true history -- we`re seeing it in Texas, where they`re banning book events because they just don`t want to hear the real story of the Alamo. Just give us the bedtime story.

Do you fear that that retreat is just going to get more intense over time? And, if it does, what are the consequence of that?

HANNAH-JONES: Absolutely.

I mean, I have said that the same places that are trying to ban the teaching of critical race theory, that are trying to ban The 1619 Project, which is actually they`re just trying to ban the teaching of the true racist history of this country, those are the same places that are introducing and passing laws to restrict the vote, right?

Those are places that are trying to ensure minority rule, and that the people who the majority are supporting cannot actually have control of the politics of state.

So, these things are going hand in hand. And that`s, when Ta-Nehisi says that ideas are dangerous, we know. There`s a reason black people during slavery were not allowed to read, right? There`s a reason why there were prohibitions during slavery on abolitionist literature, because ideas change action.

And the way that you sustain an unequal society is by making us think that this is an equal society.

REID: Yes.

HANNAH-JONES: And so, if you don`t succeed, it`s because you haven`t tried enough.

So, it`s not incidental that, after we see the largest protests for civil rights and black rights in the history of this country, and when you started to see the language changing, and even white people who had before rejected the idea of systemic inequality starting to say, well, maybe this isn`t the country I thought it was, that is then why you see this backlash, because they actually know...

REID: Yes.

HANNAH-JONES: ... if you learn that history, they`re saying, you`re bad, white people. They`re saying that you are evil, and we can`t teach this to you.

So, none of this is incidental. And it is. It`s very dangerous. We have seen this before.

REID: Yes.

Well, guess what`s going to happen? Howard University is about to turn out students, thousands and thousands of minds, into the world of journalism over the next many, many years, when the two of you are associated with that university, who are going to tear down the house. And there`s nothing anybody can do about it.

I am so proud of both of you. I adore both of you. And I -- listen, I might go and take a class.

COATES: Thank you, Joy.

REID: Can I sign up? I just need to get a little -- I just want to audit the class. Just let me audit.


REID: Thank you both for being here.


REID: Nikole Hannah-Jones, Ta-Nehisi Coates, I`m not worthy.

Thank God for both of you. Thank you both for being here.

COATES: Yes, you are. Yes, you are.

REID: Appreciate you both. Thank you.

OK. Whew!

President Biden today making yet another appeal to Americans to please, come on, get your behinds vaccinated.

Meanwhile, Congresswoman Marjorie Q. Greene makes yet another ridiculously misinformed statement about the virus. It`s deja vu all over again. Will it ever end, ever?

We will be right back.


REID: Tweetstorms by Marjorie Taylor Greene are a petri dish of misinformation, racism, Looney Tunery, and very bad public health advice.

The latest one includes the claim that no one cares about the Delta variant and that all voters are over COVID.

Well, over it or not, COVID is not over us, and outbreaks are returning with a vengeance. More than 125 people who attended a summer camp run by a Houston area church have tested positive for COVID-19. Multiple cases of the Delta variant have been traced to that outbreak. Galveston County officials confirmed that today.

Cases involving Delta have been confirmed in all 50 states in the U.S. And, surprise, the variant is especially risky in parts of the country with low vaccination rates.

Today, President Biden implored Americans to please get vaccinated, linking it to something Margie the QAnon lady claims to know all about, patriotism.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Fully vaccinated Americans have a high degree of protection, including against this Delta variant.

So, please get vaccinated now. It works. For your neighborhood, for your country. It sounds corny, but it`s a patriotic thing to do.


REID: Joining me now is Dr. Vin Gupta, critical care pulmonologist.

And, Dr. Gupta, I feel like at this point, there are three kinds of people who are not vaccinated. There are people who are afraid, afraid of the consequences, fearful there`s something in the vaccine that will hurt them, people who are overconfident and think they can just eat nutritious food, and people who are political and are doing the Marjorie Greene thing, being like, hah, I`m not going to get vaccinated, own the lips.

What do you do about any of those three people? I`m not sure any of those people`s minds can be changed.

DR. VIN GUPTA, NBC NEWS MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, Joy. Great to see you.

I do think that there`s an opportunity to reach at least two of those groups. And I will say just to the congresswoman that I think she`s thinking short-term here. We know that -- and the summer is going to lead to a respite in transmission. COVID does not like warm, dry air.

It turns out the 14th Congressional District in Georgia, which she represents, is one of the least vaccinated congressional districts in the entire country. So, she should be really careful betting the short-term play here that people are over it, because come the fall, winter, that`s going to be ground zero for rise in hospitalizations and rise, unfortunately, in deaths.

What I`d say is -- and I think your team, actually, Joy, might have an X- ray that I`d like to show all your viewers. And the idea here is, I think we have lost the narrative here on -- to young people, especially, on why they need to get vaccinated.

This is an X-ray from a 30-year-old patient of mine that I cared for a few weeks ago. The threat perception, Joy, just does not -- it`s not the same threat level that older, say, my parents` generation feel when they think about COVID, that younger people say, well, you know what, it`s older people or those with preexisting conditions that are going to end up in the ICU. Turns out that`s not what we`re seeing. I`m seeing it with my own two eyes. You`re vulnerable if you`re young to the Delta variant. We`re seeing it across the country. Maybe we need to call it something different, like COVID-21. But we need to make it crystal clear that this is a different threat than the original version of the virus was, specifically to young people.

REID: The other thing that I`m seeing, just anecdotally, is that there`s also an attitude that is developing among the vaccinated that, look, we`re going to live our hot vac summer. We`re going to travel. We can now go where we want to go, eat indoors, do what we want.

And if these people don`t want to get vaccinated, that`s their problem. And then maybe there will just be a part of the country where they just don`t get vaccinated. And I will just won`t go there. I will just avoid -- won`t go to Texas. I won`t go to Mississippi. I will just stay away from them.

In the end, can we -- can we sustain that? Or, at some point, do the unvaccinated represent a threat to the vaccinated?

GUPTA: Oh, absolutely.

And that`s exactly what we`re seeing when it comes to these emerging variants. I mean, Joy, the reason why we`re seeing these dangerous variants emerge is in part because the rest of the world is not vaccinated.

And that`s why you`re seeing a Delta variant that is eight times more lethal, we think, by initial studies, than the original version of the virus. So, absolutely. If we have close to home these huge pockets, 30 to 40 percent of the country that`s not vaccinated, that`s just a sink.

That`s a lab -- that`s a lab experiment at scale for variants to a rise who will pose a threat to us all.

I will say quickly, if I may, Joy, one of the questions I get from a lot of people hesitant about getting the vaccine or curious, they wonder, well, if I get fully vaccinated and go unmasked in public, can I bring the virus home to my unvaccinated kiddos?

REID: Yeah.

GUPTA: And this is where I think we -- you know, this is where I think we really need to think careful about what does being fully vaccinated mean. People want to be protected from the hospital and all of the vaccines appear to do that really well.

But I don`t know if two -- I think two doses are better than one when it comes to the issue of transmission. We know that the Pfizer vaccine dramatically reduces the risk of transmission of the virus, same with Moderna. I`m not convinced one dose of Johnson & Johnson necessarily the same as two doses of Pfizer and Moderna when it comes to transmission.

REID: Right.

And, lastly, do you think at this point -- I mean, we`re begging and paying people in this country to get vaccinated, when in Africa I think the vaccination rate is like 2 percent. There are countries around the world who would do anything to have these vaccines.

Would it be more efficacious at this point to start sending them around the world if Americans don`t want them?

GUPTA: Oh, absolutely. I think scarcity is motivating. So, frankly, I think if we start to send out excess supply out now, it`s going to motivate people to get the vaccine. It will be a great motivator and, two, it`s the best way to safeguard global public health. Let`s vaccinate countries that barely have any access to vaccine. So, I`m with you 100 percent.

GUPTA: Yeah. The African continent is really suffering. Other places, too, around the world. Let`s send those vaccines out. And we are going to pay a million dollars to get them here. It`s pretty incredible.

Dr. Vin Gupta, the person who convinced me not be afraid to get vaccinated is you, Dr. Gupta. So, people can -- minds can be changed because you changed mine. Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you.

Still ahead, January 6th exposed one of the biggest hypocrisies being peddled by many GOP lawmakers. I will explain in tonight`s absolute worst.

But, first, the toxic nature of guardianships and conservatorships like the one currently putting Britney Spears through the ringer. Ronan Farrow joins me next.


REID: Big news tonight in the ongoing Free Britney saga. Tonight, Spear`s court-appointed attorney filed a motion to resign, just two weeks after Spears told the court that she wanted to find her own attorney, and a day after her longtime manager resigned, citing Spears` desire to retire in a letter to Spears` conservators.

Now, it`s the latest fall out from Spears` attempt to remove her father Jaime from controlling her fortune and her life.

In court, she called her situation abusive. Adding, we can sit here all day and say, oh, conservatorships are here to help people but ma`am, there are a thousand conservatorships that are abusive as well.

And she`s right. Britney is caught up in a toxic, pun intended, unregulated legal morass, affecting more than 1.5 million Americans, most of them elderly or disabled. Last week, a judge rejected Spears` request to have her father removed from his role. The following day, the professional co- conservator, Bessemer Trust, asked to be removed from its role in her finances, citing her June testimony.

Britney alleged that she`s being medicated against her will and forced to work, adding fuel to the fire of the longstanding Free Britney movement gained that major traction earlier year following a "New York Times" documentary.


ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, Britney Spears.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she walks down, and then passes the stage where the performance is going to be, keeps walking, keeps walking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doesn`t say anything on stage, doesn`t give any interviews with reporters, does not announce the residency she`s there to announce.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s it, we`ve been waiting from this live stream, and she just walked right by.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s just walking by.


REID: Wow. In a new piece in the "New Yorker", Ronan Farrow and Jia Tolentino detailed in depth how Spears got into her conservatorship nightmare and how it reflects the larger abuses of the system. A family friend who helped put the conservatorship in place said that she now regrets it.

Quote, at the time, I thought we were helping, and now, and I wasn`t, and I helped a corrupt family seize all this control.

Wow. And my friend Ronan Farrow, investigative reporter for "The New Yorker" joins me now.

So excited to talk with you, Ronan.

OK. Let`s start with the breaking news, though, the resignation of Britney Spears lawyer, what`s the significance?

RONAN FARROW, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE NEW YORKER: So Britney Spears` both manager Larry Rudolph of many years and now reportedly in the past few hours, her corporate-appointed attorney are on their way out of this arrangement. I think that reflects, Joy, an understanding that has been overdue for many years just how desperately and repeatedly Britney Spears has tried to get out of this conservatorship.

And, you know, in addition to this strange saga of how this came to be around Spears and the fact that now individuals who initially helped to set it up because they thought it was in her interest are pulling back that support. You correctly pointed out the much larger population affected by this and the fact that we talk to a lot of experts who said Britney Spears` case opens up onto a set of problems a whole lot of people deal with in these arrangements, a whole lot of situations in which it is ripe for exploitation and abuse.

REID: You know what? I think that`s the thing that is hard to get our head around, right? Britney Spears is young, rich and famous. How on earth could something, you and I talked about this offline, has happened to other people who are maybe elderly or disabled, who did this -- which is horrible enough, right, because they don`t have her money and clout, how did this happen to her?

FARROW: Well, in some ways, Britney Spears fame and wealth make her a- typical. You know, she was, I think was placed in a state of emotional distress, as you might imagine, that`s very understandable because she was hounded by the paparazzi everywhere. She had very little space in her life to just live.

And the fame and the money also meant that her family was really riven by struggle would control her fortune, who would control her career. We document all of that in this piece.

But in other ways, you know, Britney Spears` case, it is in the eyes of a lot of disability rights attorneys fairly typical.

One thing we see play out in these cases, Joy, is if a conservatorship is leading to a situation where a conservatee, like Britney Spears is doing well under the conservatorship -- Britney Spears has toured. She`s made --

REID: Yeah.

FARROW: -- a great deal of money for a lot of people around her. That can be used as evidence that the conservatorship is working great. And then if the conservatee is doing poorly, these experts describe, that can be used as evidence that, oh, the conservatorship was necessary all along.

And, you know, I want to caution to say, these can be helpful arrangements. They can be necessary arrangements. But clearly, they can also be arrangements that are ripe for abuse, especially in cases like Britney Spears` case, where you`re dealing with someone who pushes the outer edges of who this should be applied to because she is clearly, whatever other mental health struggles she may have, and they may be grave as people in her camp are suggesting --

REID: Sure.

FARROW: -- she is high functioning as well.

REID: And she`s high functioning. But she`s also a money maker for her dad.

I think the thing that`s most disturbing about this is the appearance at least that the father wants to keep her working, keep her not pregnant, keep her ability to make money because he financially benefits.

Once the lawyer is gone and the publicists have resigned and all the people involved who were stopping her from being able to petition to get rid of the dad, do you think that this now opens the door for her to be able to separate from her father? She`s not a child. How can he continue to control her and control her money?

FARROW: Jamie Spears, her father`s involvement, is one of the more peculiar aspects of this case, joy, because so many people close to Britney Spears -- and we talked to dozens of people around this conservatorship, people who knew her before and during. So many people remarked that she had an incredibly strained relationship with her father, that her father could be emotionally abusive to her.

You know, we documented him, you know, calling her some pretty horrific epithets. And in ways that would lead someone to say the least, never want that person with that relationship to control their finances and their person.

And, you know, she has filed over the years to limit his control and right now, he is only conservator of her estate, not conservator of her person. That role has gone to a court-appointed person.

But the fact that he`s still involved at all, as you point out, is striking. And I certainly hope that as we see this exodus in the wake of this piece that we published, there`s also attentiveness on the part of professionals in the court system that one of Britney Spears` main objections was her father`s involvement and that he not be left behind as the only person with a thumb over her life.

REID: How do people prevent this from happening? I mean, as you looked at this and have done the journalism on it, should people be doing like living wills? What can you do to make sure you maintain control over your life if you become disabled somehow?

FARROW: It`s a great question. You know, I would say that it`s got to come at a policy level. This really isn`t about anything that Britney Spears could have done differently beforehand. You know, I think that there are people around this who argue, well, you or I or many people at, you know, a standard level of mental health functionality might push back more vigorously in a more concerted or strategic way earlier.

REID: Yeah.

FARROW: Britney Spears when she gave that explosive testimony in court says, well, years have gone by and I tried because I felt I wasn`t getting heard.

REID: Yeah.

FARROW: And, you know, that`s something to understand in these cases. They`re often applied to people who do have sincere mental health struggles, and who are less equipped to push back.

REID: Right.

FARROW: All the more reason why I turn again to policy reform.

REID: Yep.

FARROW: Making sure the courts keep an eye on these situations.

REID: Another thing we got to make some policy on.

Ronan Farrow, you are the best. Great journalism. Everyone should read this piece. Farrow, thank you very much, my friend.

FARROW: Back at you, Joy.

REID: OK. Cheers.

And up next, OK, conservatives just love the police when they`re keeping those pesky, old Black Lives Matter protesters in line, of course. But when it comes to punishing white insurrectionists -- not so much.

Tonight`s absolute worst is next. Stay right there.


REID: The twice impeached one-term president and his harem of congressional followers continue to claim that all Democrats want to defund the police. Sadly in the six months since the insurrection that led to the death of three police officers, Republicans have made clear just how little they actually care about law and order.

First, there`s the whitewashing of the January 6th assault on the Capitol by a pro-Trump mob. On that day, more than 140 members of law enforcement were wounded. One officer lost the tip of their finger. Others were smashed in the head with bats, poles, and pipes. Many were subjected to these types of verbal and physical assaults.

A warning. It`s disturbing to watch.


REID: Actually given their claims of law and order, you would assume that Republicans would run, rain down fire and fury on those individuals who harmed those officers. Wrong. Instead they joined them by openly dismissing the officers on the front lines. 21 members of the House Republican caucus voted against a bill to award congressional gold medals to the officers who defended the Capitol on January 6th.

Georgia Congressman Andrew Clyde refused to shake the hand of D.C. Metro Police Officer Michael Fanone, who was brutally beaten while protecting him. Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar continues to target the police officer who shot the insurrectionist who breached the speaker`s lobby.

Oh, and then there`s Kevin. Good old, spineless House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. For weeks, Officer Fanone had asked to meet with Kevin but to no avail. When he finally did, Kevin refused to publicly denounce the whitewashing of the January 6th attack.

Is that what they mean when they say Blue Lives Matter? Well, naturally, hysterical Republicans like Ted Cruz have denied these claims. Fact check: Mr. Vacation in Mexico, Biden has vowed to spend $260 million more than the orange guy on the police. Also, it was Republicans who literally voted against funding for the police in the American rescue package.

So tonight, pretending that they actually care about the police when they really don`t, the Republican Party is the absolute worst.

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN CHRIS HAYES" starts now.