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Transcript: The ReidOut, 7/13/21

Guests: Chris Turner, Alex Padilla, Alexis McGill Johnson, Michael Daly

Summary

President Biden delivers major voting rights speech, slamming the "big lie". Texas Democrats say, the right to vote is sacred. Biden urges Congress to pass new voting rights bill. Texas Governor Abbott vows to arrest Democrats when they return. Texas Democrats walk out of special suppression session. Biden lays out plan for protecting voting rights. Texas Democrats visit D.C. to push for voting rights. Biden calls GOP state voting restrictions un-American. Tennessee halts all adolescent vaccine outreach. Rudy Giuliani sided with a Capitol insurrectionist over law enforcement.

Transcript

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with the moral case for protecting the right to vote. I mean, it`s unconscionable that 46 years after one Democratic president put the moral weight of the office of the presidency behind expanding voting rights, another would have to do it again.

But amid Republicans` draconian voter suppression efforts all across the country, President Biden today did just that. Speaking in Philadelphia, an epicenter of Republicans` antidemocratic efforts in 2020 and to this day, Biden eviscerated the claims of the disgraced former president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: No other election has ever been held under such scrutiny and such high standards. The big lie is just that, a big lie.

The denial of full and free and fair elections is the most un-American thing that any of us can imagine, the most undemocratic, the most unpatriotic, and sadly not unprecedented.

Time and again we`ve weathered threats to the right to vote in free and fair elections. And each time we found a way to overcome. The 21st century Jim Crow assault is real. It`s unrelenting. And we`re going to challenge it vigorously.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Biden mirrored Lyndon Johnson`s voting rights speech in 1965 invoking the civil rights anthem, we shall overcome, an assailing in what he called the greatest threat to democracy since the civil war.

But Biden didn`t offer much in the way of a plan. When President Johnson delivered his speech to a joint session of Congress, he was urging passage of the Voting Rights Act, a law that`s now essentially dead. And today, Texas Democrat continued their fight against Republican voter suppression efforts in their state after more than 50 elected Democrat left Texas last night to block the passage of new voter suppression laws.

The longest serving black woman in the Texas legislature, Senfronia Thompson, outlined exactly what`s at stake for her constituents if new federal laws are not enact -- if state laws are enacted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. SENFRONIA THOMPSON (D-TX): When I look at the African-American museum, I thought about the struggle my people fought in this country to get the right to vote. And that right is sacred to my constituents that I represent back in Houston, Texas.

I`m not going to be a hostage, that my constituents` rights will be stripped from them. We have fought too long and too hard in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Around the time those Texas Democrat finished speaking, Texas House Republicans voted to send law enforcement to track them down under warrant of arrest. Texas law enforcement has no jurisdiction in the nation`s Capitol, so that remains a per formative exercise.

The Republican governor, Greg Abbott, has vowed to have them arrested when they return to the state. The Texas Democrat plan to stay in Washington as long as it takes to kill the new voter suppression measures back home and to push for federal voting rights legislation in Congress, meeting with senators today and Vice President Kamala Harris, the administration`s lead on voting rights.

But neither President Biden nor Vice President Harris addressed the elephant in the room when it comes to federal legislation today, the filibuster even as some Texas lawmakers echoed calls for a carve-out in the Senate rules to advance federal voting rights legislation. Biden again called on Congress to restore parts of the Voting Rights Act gutted by the Supreme Court in 2013 and, again, just two weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: It puts the burden back on Congress to restore the voting rights act to its intended strength. As soon as Congress passes the For the People Act and the John Lewis Voting Advancement Act, I will sign it and let the whole world see it. That will be an important moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Joining me now is Senator Alex Padilla of California and State Representative Chris Turner, Chair of the Texas House Democratic Caucus.

I want to start with you, Representative Turner. First I have to talk to you about this threat to have you all arrested when you return to Texas and supposedly to track you down like the Fugitive Slave Act is still in force now. What do you make of that, those threats?

STATE REP. CHRIS TURNER (D-TX): Good evening, Joy, great to be with you. They`re empty threats. As you stated, the governor -- the state of Texas doesn`t have jurisdiction outside the state of Texas. But moreover, Governor Abbott is just simply empty bluster. He does not have any authority to come after us.

You know, Governor Abbott has had a problem lately understanding the separation of powers. He`s the executive branch, we`re the legislative branch. He has tried to defund the legislative branch by vetoing our appropriations and now he`s threatening to arrest lawmakers, neither of which he has the constitutional authority to do.

The Texas House of Representatives does have a rule that allows the speaker and the remaining members there to compel a quorum. That is within their right.

[19:05:00]

They authorized warrants, they do not issue warrants. And so that`s -- but the reality is it`s a civil matter, it`s not a criminal matter because our members have committed no crime.

Fundamentally, what we`re doing is working for our constituents and fighting for democracy. That`s what we`re doing.

REID: What you`re doing is showing -- with all due respect, I know that we have a D.C. Democrat that works on Capitol Hill on with us but showing Democrats in the Capitol how to fight. You met with the vice president today. You`re part of the group that met with her.

Did you leave that meeting feeling that you have a commitment that Democrats in D.C. will fight as hard as you all are fighting? You all are taking the risks that I think the base of the Democratic Party wants to see taken all around the country. Did you leave there feeling that you have a commitment from the White House to do something to make sure voting rights pass federally, including getting rid of the filibuster?

TURNER: Yes. Well, we had a great meeting with Vice President Harris, and she reiterated her support and the president`s support for seeing both these laws pass the Congress and get to the president`s desk. That`s, of course, not in doubt. She reiterated --

REID: Yes. But we already know they support that. So like what do they say they`re going to do? I`m sorry. I don`t mean to interrupt you, I apologize. But we know they support it. I mean, Biden gave a great speech today. What did they say they were going to actually do?

TURNER: Well, they want to continue working with us and amplify our voices and asked us to amplify theirs. We need to create the pressure and the public demand for the Senate to be able to pass both these laws and get them to the president`s desk. And we briefed the vice president on what we`ve been doing. We`ve had a delegation of members working the Senate side today, at the group that our members meet, with Senator Padilla earlier today and some other senators and we`re going to continue to do that the next several days.

And our message is very simple, and we told the vice president this, that we have committed, the Democrat in the Texas house, to running out the clock in this special session. That will end August 7th to kill this bill. And we`re going to use that time to spread the word about what a crisis this is for our democracy. But we can`t do that forever, obviously. We have to go back to Texas. And so we need Congress and the U.S. Senate now to pass HR-1, which has already passed in the House, to also pass in the Senate and we need the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. We need them both.

REID: Let me go to you, Senator Padilla. You are a newer member of the Senate, so perhaps this sort of intractability of it hasn`t kicked in with you yet. But, I mean, this is the reality. These representatives from Texas are very brave and they are showing the meaning of the word, fight. As they said, they can`t do it forever. And there`s a deadline when the August recess is going to kick in for the United States Senate.

Look, when I was, you know, when I was a young person, Congress used its power of compulsion to force my state, Colorado, to lower their speed limit to 55. They sure didn`t want to do it, but they said, we don`t get your highway funds if you don`t do it. There`s a lot of power of compulsion that the federal government has. I think a lot of people that are watching this show do not understand why the powers of compulsion are not being used to force these states back, to push them back or to get the federal voting legislation passed.

SEN. ALEX PADILLA (D-CA): There`s only one reason why it hasn`t been done already and we`ll say it again. It`s the F word, the filibuster. So put me down in the column of abolishing the filibuster or at least carve-out, an exemption, whatever you want to call it, for the sake of saving our fundamental democracy.

You know I really do commend the Texas legislators that are here making the case in the nation`s Capitol, not just through the press but for policymakers. The last time they were here, it made a difference. You know prior to their first visit, we didn`t even have Joe Manchin supporting to debate the For the People Act on the floor of the Senate.

Their presence absolutely made an impact. We`ve got to a 50-50 vote, still ten shy of the 60-vote threshold required by the filibuster but maybe their presence here and the example of what they`re bringing of this voter suppression laws in Texas can continue to move not just the hearts and minds of the general public but members of Congress as well.

And I`ve got to tell you, as we`re trying to influence the public and highlight what`s happening, it`s not just Texas. You saw the sham of an audit in Phoenix, Arizona. You`ve seen what`s happened in Georgia in recent months and in Alabama and in Iowa. Voter suppression is happening across the country and that`s why, yes, Congress needs to act.

REID: But here`s the thing, Senator, is that you know, you have maybe ten senators who want to keep the filibuster. They seem to be clinging to that more than they are to democracy. They don`t seem to have any urgency. They don`t have the urgency you just described.

Why would you go along voting for their infrastructure bill?

[19:10:00]

Manchin really wants that. Why don`t some of you senators say you don`t get our votes on the precious infrastructure bill that you need for your politics if you don`t give up the filibuster? Or why not say, you know, there`s got to be something Kyrsten Sinema wants other than to be on T.V. and mock her own base. Why don`t you say to her you want my vote on this? You don`t get it. You don`t get your 50, you don`t get your special stuff unless we get what we want.

Why -- I don`t understand why senators are not using the leverage they have over the recalcitrant ten, or however many of them there are, to say you don`t get your way unless we get help on voting rights. It`s more important than anything else.

PADILLA: Look, and I may be new to the Senate but I ain`t new to politics, so don`t think conversations along those lines may not be happening as we speak. But the point I`m trying to make here is with the presence of these heroes from Texas, it is making a difference.

And so the last go-around it moved at least one or two. This go-around hopefully it`s another two, whether it`s on the substance of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, which is already supported bipartisan or HR-1/S-1 or maybe the rules for the filibuster itself. It is making an impact.

We need to hear from them more. We need to hear from other states. Congress needs to hear from the American people. Between President Biden`s speech, the courage of these Texas legislators and more of us continue to speaking out and bringing specific examples of the harm here.

One of the compelling examples that the Texas representatives made is the elimination of drive-through voting. What does that mean for voters with disabilities? And don`t tell me that in Texas it`s okay because they can vote by mail because you know how restricted it is to be able to vote by mail in Texas.

So you have to call out these examples to really exemplify the true voter suppression Jim Crow modern era that we`re talking about here in state after state is all the more reason why we need these reforms to be done in Congress.

REID: You know, Representative Turner, I don`t -- is that compelling to you? Because it strikes me -- I hate to say this, but it doesn`t feel like people like Manchin and Sinema care about that. That doesn`t seem to move them. So if you all are not able to commit -- have you had a chance to talk with Manchin or Sinema? Have you met with either of them, Representative Turner?

TURNER: And so the last time I was in Washington about three weeks ago, I did have an opportunity to meet with Senator Manchin, actually right before I last came on your show, I think. And after that meeting, and I won`t say it was all because of our meeting, but after that meeting, the senator did ending up supporting moving forward on S-1, the For the People Act, and, of course, it was blocked by the filibuster but there were 50 Democratic votes for that, which was, I think, certainly forward progress, but that forward progress is halted again.

So we are going to visit with Senator Manchin again this week, some of our members will. We`re hoping to meet with Senator Sinema certainly as well and other senators on the Hill. And just what Senator Padilla was just saying, that`s what we want our members while they`re to do is let us tell you exactly what Republicans in Texas are trying to do. They`re banning drive-through voting, banning overnight voting, empowering partisan poll watchers to be able to literally look over someone`s shoulder while they`re casting a ballot and try to intimidate them.

And Republicans have used poll watchers for decades in Texas to intimidate primarily African-American and Hispanic voters. And now they want to give them more powers to be able to do more intimidation. It`s wrong, it`s sick, it`s anti-democratic and that`s the message we`re trying to spread, how bad this vote suppression legislation is, which is why we need strong federal legislation and we need it now.

REID: Absolutely. I`m going to give you one more sort of go at this, Senator Padilla. What do you think ends up -- you know these people. You`ve -- obviously, your fellow Californian is now the vice president of the United States, but you also know these other senators. What is it going to take to get them to give up the filibuster?

PADILLA: Yes. Look, I think it`s continuing to point out the hypocrisy. And here`s the last thing I`ll mention for anybody, either side of the aisle who says we can`t move forward on this because it should be done on a bipartisan basis. Look what`s happening not just in Texas but in statehouses across the country. These voter suppression measures that are advancing are only being done on a partisan basis, Republican partisan voter suppression. Congress needs to respond and time is of the essence.

REID: Yes. And they can`t keep asking voters of color to vote for them if they won`t even fight for the same voters and fight for them to keep their rights. They`re just not going to be able to keep making the ask. Maybe that will move that. You won`t be able to get these votes anymore. Why would anyone want to fight for you to keep your power if you won`t fight for us to keep our right to vote?

[19:15:02]

It really makes no sense.

Senator Alex Padilla and Texas State Representative Chris Turner, please convey to all of your colleagues how grateful the country is for you fighting for our democracy. Thank you very much.

All right, up next on THE REIDOUT, a health official fired for promoting vaccinations. A teacher fired for including anti-racism in her lesson. It begs the question, what the hell is going on in Tennessee?

Meanwhile, Republicans in Texas put an actual -- get this, a bounty on the heads of anyone who helps a woman fulfill her constitutional right to have an abortion.

Plus Rudy Giuliani`s election night strategery that even Trump`s third-rate staff said was pathetic. A critical look at Rudy`s career finds a lot of that kind of bad judgment. THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The GQP`s anti-vax hysteria has reached a fevered pitch in Tennessee where the Department of Health, and when you can even able call that anymore, is halting all adolescent vaccine outreach, not just for coronavirus but for all diseases, like measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough.

[19:20:08]

This comes after the state fired its top vaccine official over her department`s outreach efforts to promote COVID vaccinations among teenagers, outreach that, mind you, could literally prevent teenagers from dying or passing the virus on to their families or their teachers as the state becomes one of the first to reopen schools amid a surge in the Delta variant, Tennessee, where only 38 percent of the population is vaccinated.

The casualties of the Republican death cult culture war, just they don`t even end there. A high school teacher in Sullivan County, Tennessee, who is tenured, by the way, is facing termination for teaching a poem about white privilege and for assigning this essay by Ta-Nehisi Coates which examines how Donald Trump employed whiteness to try and dismantle the legacy of America`s first black president, Barack Obama.

This is what that teacher, Matthew Hawn, told the school board in march when it accused him of not showing opposing viewpoints.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW HAWN, TEACHER: It takes more than 45 minutes to talk about some of these issues like racism. You can`t cover that in one class.

And what`s the opposite of -- the opposite of racism is racism. How am I supposed to show an opposing viewpoint to that? I don`t consider white privilege an opinion. I consider it a fact, just like the Pythagorean theorem or evolution or...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just because you consider something a fact don`t make it a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Ooh, lord.

What we`re seeing right now in 2021, and not just in the state that brought us the Scopes trial in an earlier era, are witch-hunts, witch-hunts against teachers who teach facts and a statewide initiative to ban public health outreach to teens, leading us to wonder, what the hell is going on in Tennessee and, frankly, in America?

Joining me now to help make sense of this is Tiffany Cross, host of "THE CROSS CONNECTION" right here on MSNBC.

And, Tiffany, I told you during the break out of losing my ability to display...

TIFFANY CROSS, HOST, "THE CROSS CONNECTION": Yes. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: ... composure.

Let`s go back. I`m going to put a pin in Mr. Hawn for just a moment. Let`s go back to this vaccine outreach.

According to Tennessee`s now new rules, they can`t -- if the health department wants to issue any information about vaccine, staff are instructed to strip their logo off the documents. The health department is going to stop all COVID-19 -- COVID-19 vaccine events on school property. They will no longer send postcards or other notices reminding teens to get their second dose.

Teens will be excluded from the postcards, so that they`re not participating in solicitation of minors. Basically, they`re saying don`t protect kids from COVID.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Make this make sense.

CROSS: I wish I could, Joy.

REID: You have that on your cell -- on your phone. Make it make sense. Make it make sense.

CROSS: Exactly. Exactly.

I wish I could. So this is so ridiculous. So, the fact that she was fired because there is a legal doctrine that says, if you`re 14 years or older...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... you can get vaccinated without your parents` permission.

This is the problem that they have with that. They are so married to this crazy MAGA madman, they`re willing to die for him. So the local officials there now have to contend with false information...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... misinformation on social media, political influence based in nothing but ignorance.

And it`s creating havoc there. They`re averaging 460 cases a day there, while vaccination rates have stalled. And I just want to say this, and I want to talk to the folks at home, because there are people in our community, Joy...

REID: Yes.

CROSS: ... who are still very frightened about this vaccine.

And I want to say to you, if you are in the minority community, if you`re a person of color, the fact that the only people who are aligning with your point of view right now are in this MAGA madman mob, please do reconsider your position.

REID: A hundred percent. Don`t let them kill you.

CROSS: Right.

REID: I think, at this point, I feel the same way.

The people that I have true empathy for are the people in black and brown communities and indigenous communities...

CROSS: Yes.

REID: ... who are literally, because they`re being led in states by people who are part of the cult -- and it is a death cult.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Because they are willing to die. And they seem to actually want to get COVID. And they want to spread COVID.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: And they want the right to spread COVID.

Please, black folks, brown folks...

CROSS: Yes.

REID: ... people of color, don`t let them kill you. Don`t let them...

CROSS: Don`t be a fool. Don`t hitch your wagon to these fools.

REID: And let`s just show -- just to show you that nexus here in these ideologies.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Here are the 19 states with bans on critical race theory, where they have been introduced or passed. This is the map. We`re going to put that up on screen. We are going to leave that up for a minute. OK, that`s that map. Keep that in your head for a moment.

Now let`s look at the 30 states that have less than 50 percent people vaccinated. Look for just a moment. OK, do you see how they`re similar?

CROSS: The overlay.

REID: So, you`re -- OK, so let`s now move on to this high school teacher.

Let me let you listen to -- this is Matthew Hawn. And he`s tenured. He`s in Sullivan County, Tennessee, facing termination. And here he is talking about Donald Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAWN: We elected someone who spoke like this to the highest office in the land. And now we`re upset that an African-American author is quoting that president.

It`s kind of a double standard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So, he`s talking -- he`s talking about the Ta-Nehisi Coates piece "The First White President."

CROSS: Yes.

REID: I taught -- I assigned that to my students, to my white students at Syracuse.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: It didn`t break them.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Please make it make sense. What he was upset about is that Ta-Nehisi actually quoted something that Steve Bannon and Trump said.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: And it was quoted in there. And they didn`t like it.

Please explain.

CROSS: Right.

I mean, it`s kind of insulting, so insulting that Ta-Nehisi Coates is even mentioned with these people, right?

REID: Yes.

CROSS: Somebody who said, just because you believe it`s fact don`t make it a fact.

REID: Correct.

CROSS: You know?

REID: Correct.

CROSS: Yes, it`s really unfortunate, Joy.

I mean, but I think the bigger case here, because we could easily get caught up in this one teacher, which -- as ridiculous as it is. But this is a fight with the school board.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: And so a lot of conservatives who want to run for office, they use local school boards as their launching pad. And there`s actually data behind this that people who are elected to school boards are typically white, wealthier.

They`re almost carpetbaggers who insert themselves in this, and then they get to the state legislature, and they obliterate voting rights.

REID: Right.

CROSS: And so, when we have something like this, look, I don`t have to tell your viewers. They already know how ridiculous the argument is to make.

But I think the bigger strategy point is, how do you stop this from happening at the school board level...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... because there has to be policy to prevent this kind of thing.

And that is the key. If they can take away our history, and they can rewrite the narrative, then they take away the ability to speak a truthful story about this country. And they don`t -- I sometimes wonder, is it that they don`t know or that they don`t want everybody else to know.

REID: Right.

CROSS: And I really do think they know. They know what they have done, but they don`t want other people to know.

And it`s very strategic, the way that they have streamlined a new narrative. There`s a case in Connecticut where they falsely say that the enslaved people were like workers.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: In Alabama, there are textbooks that say...

REID: Yes.

CROSS: ... slavery was the happiest time in the country.

So these are the things that they`re indoctrinating these kids with. And you and I both got two educations. We got what the school taught us. And then we got what we were taught at home...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... which informed our world view in a much more, I would say, comprehensive way than what our counterparts had.

REID: Yes.

Well, the -- and the irony is, they`re proving Ta-Nehisi Coates` piece right.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Because what he said is that he sort of empowered white Americans to say that we`re going to use, like, the power of our whiteness...

CROSS: Right.

REID: ... to obliterate the existence of the first black president, and now they`re trying to obliterate the history of this country that has to do with us.

They`re kind of proving his point.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: They`re also driving a lot of teachers out of the business. People are saying they`re quitting. They`re under so much pressure.

And they`re saying openly -- there was a piece -- I think it was in "The National Review" -- saying, run for school board.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Take over the schools. We get the schools and we get the culture back.

CROSS: Exactly.

But the ridiculousness of how the leading -- one of the leading intellectuals in this country, his name is even in this fight with half- witted, low, intellectually...

REID: How?

CROSS: Like without any intellectual curiosity on a school board. So...

REID: They need to read some Ta-Nehisi Coates.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: They might be smarter.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Tiffany Cross, thank you very much.

Everybody should watch "THE CROSS CONNECTION" every weekend. You got to watch it 10:00 a.m. to noon every weekend on MSNBC.

A quick note before we go to break: MSNBC is celebrating its 25th anniversary this weekend. MSNBC Daily is featuring 25 days of essays on important topics from MSNBC authors, hosts and correspondents.

And, today, you can read my thoughts on how our history informs our present. You can read it now at MSNBC.com/TheNext25.

Sorry.

Still ahead -- choked myself up -- abortion rights groups are fighting back against a new Texas law. But get this. You just can`t make this stuff up. It deputizes citizens as abortion bounty hunters.

Alexis McGill Johnson, president of Planned Parenthood, joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The right has made it their mission to do everything they can to take away a woman`s right to choose. And now they have reached a new low in Texas.

The state`s new law not only bans abortions after six weeks, before most women even know that they`re pregnant, but it effectively deputized as private citizens to become bounty hunters. Instead of relying on the government to enforce the ban, which right now -- at least for now -- is unconstitutional under Roe v. Wade, it allows any old body to sue abortion providers and anyone who helps a woman obtain an abortion, with a bounty of $10,000 if they`re successful.

As Jennifer Rubin points out, the party that is supposedly faithful to the Constitution and to law and order is instead taking refuge in Kafkaesque rulemaking that empowers individuals and state authorities to harass, intimidate and confuse Americans.

Planned Parenthood and other groups are now suing to block this law, arguing that it will create absolute chaos in Texas and irreparably harm Texans in need of abortion services.

I`m joined now by Alexis McGill Johnson, president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Thank you for being on, Ms. McGill Johnson.

I lost my ability -- I thought I`d lost my ability to be surprised. I thought it was gone. And then this happened. Your thoughts on this law?

ALEXIS MCGILL JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, PLANNED PARENTHOOD: And, I mean, the cruelty is the point here, Joy.

And I think you said it so plainly, right? I mean, this is a state that supposedly loves defending the Constitution, right, loves protecting rights. And yet it`s a state where they don`t even love thy neighbor, right? They`re talking about sue thy neighbor.

They`re talking about pitting family members against family members, friends against friends, and encouraging anyone in literally any state who does not believe in abortion or just needs $10,000 to go after anyone who is supporting someone who is getting access to abortion.

That could be an abortion provider. It could be a health center. It could be a fund. It could be a donor. It can also be an Uber driver.

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: Who knows where the bounds end? It could be an ex- boyfriend, right?

So, like the extreme -- the extremity of this law makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

REID: Let me just read a little bit from the -- this is from the Planned Parenthood lawsuit. And this is called SB-8 is the name of the law.

"It will force abortion providers and others who are sued to spend massive amounts of time and money to defend themselves in lawsuits across the state in which the deck is heavily stacked against them. The burdens of this cruel law will fall most heavily on black, Latinx and indigenous patients, who, because of systemic racism, already encounter substantial barriers to obtaining health care."

But you just made a really important point, because it`s not just the health care providers. It`s the Uber driver or Lyft driver who drives a woman to the health care center. It`s having neighbors spying on women who: Hey, wasn`t Jessica pregnant last week? She`s not pregnant now. I think I might turn her in and get myself $10,000. Hey, let me spy on my in-law. She was pregnant. How pregnant was she, actually?

It`s -- we like to throw around "Handmaid`s Tale" as a sort of -- sort of reference point for what the Republican Party has deteriorated into, but now they have decided, hold my beer, we`re just going to go ahead and do it, people informing on people. What are we, the Soviet Union in the `80s?

I -- I`m sorry. Keep talking, because I`m just going to keep yelling.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

MCGILL JOHNSON: No, I mean, it does. It feel so dystopian already, right?

I mean, and we know, look, 85 percent of patients at Planned Parenthood health centers come in after six weeks to get access to abortion, right? And that`s normal, right, because six weeks is very, very early in a pregnancy. And so by -- most people don`t even know they are pregnant before six weeks.

And so now you are creating a universe where anybody can be incentivized, with a perverse incentive, to come in and to actually say, I`m going to figure out what happened to Becky`s pregnancy, and did she terminate it or not, and then go seek information in order to get this bounty.

The Texas state doesn`t want to enforce the law. I think that`s what`s so important here, right, that they have decided that, rather than enforce the law themselves, they`re going to conscript everyday Americans to come in and...

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: And judges to basically drive this strategy for them, right, and to engage in their rigged proceedings. It makes no sense, really.

REID: And isn`t -- I mean, if somebody had a miscarriage, for instance, and went into the hospital for a miscarriage, in theory, if they took a Lyft because they were in pain and bleeding, everyone involved in taking this -- if they -- if somebody accused them, or maybe the Lyft driver looked back and thought, hey, I wonder if this person had an abortion?

I mean, it literally turns citizens into spies on each other.

Let me ask you about Planned Parenthood`s long-term strategery. There was a member of Congress who claims he went to high school with Amy Coney Barrett and knows for sure that she`s going to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Has Planned Parenthood began to plan for a world in which Roe is gone? Because it does appear that this 6-3 right-wing, far right-wing court is going to kill it. They`re going to get rid of it. What is the plan?

MCGILL JOHNSON: You know, look, we are going to fight as hard as we can with all of our movement partners and our -- and with all of our state partners to make sure that we are -- that we have a provider response.

We know in many states Roe is already ineffectually gone. We know that they have -- they have continued with the number of restrictions that we have seen just this year, over 600 to strip away access, put in these waiting periods, continue to shame and stigmatize people who are providing abortion, the patients themselves.

So we have seen it during COVID. We know what the world looks like without Roe. What`s dangerous about this particular case is that, if we are not able to block SB-8 in Texas, if we are not able to block which should be a regular unconstitutional ban -- every six-week ban has been blocked -- it means that 26 states are poised to follow in a copycat manner this same strategy.

So that is -- that`s why we felt it was so important with our partners at Center for Reproductive Rights and the ACLU and the...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: ... project and (INAUDIBLE) to come in and say, we have got to stop this here in Texas and make sure this does not flourish throughout the country, while we also fight that provider response and that movement response and that mobilization response around -- around what will happen -- you know, what we hope does not happen in Mississippi, but what we need to care for.

REID: Yes, or federally.

If Republicans get their hands on the Senate and the House again, they could pass a federal one, and then we`re back in -- in 1850, they did have a Fugitive Slave Act, where you could make yourself a little money if you could catch somebody who`d run away from enslavement, get yourself a little chunk of change that way too.

This country is had a lot of weird history. And it ain`t over yet.

Alexis McGill Johnson, thank you very much. And good luck. Godspeed.

Still ahead: If you thought that Trump`s big lie originated with orange Jim Jones himself, think again. The true origin story is next. And its antihero is tonight`s absolute worst.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

1900

all adolescent vaccine outreach, not just for coronavirus, but for all diseases. Thinks measles mumps, rubella, whooping cough.

This comes after the state fired its top vaccine official over her department`s outreach efforts to promote COVID vaccinations among teenagers, outreach that, mind you, could literally prevent teenagers from dying or passing the virus on to their families or their teachers as the state becomes one of the first to reopen schools amid a surge in the Delta variant, Tennessee, where only 38 percent of the population is vaccinated.

The casualties of the Republican death cult culture war, just they don`t even end there. A high school teacher in Sullivan County, Tennessee, who is tenured, by the way, is facing termination for teaching a poem about white privilege and for assigning this essay by Ta-Nehisi Coates which examines how Donald Trump employed whiteness to try and dismantle the legacy of America`s first black president, Barack Obama.

This is what that teacher, Matthew Hawn, told the school board in march when it accused him of not showing opposing viewpoints.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW HAWN, TEACHER: It takes more than 45 minutes to talk about some of these issues like racism. You can`t cover that in one class.

And what`s the opposite of -- the opposite of racism is racism. How am I supposed to show an opposing viewpoint to that? I don`t consider white privilege an opinion. I consider it a fact, just like the Pythagorean theorem or evolution or...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just because you consider something a fact don`t make it a fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Ooh, lord.

What we`re seeing right now in 2021, and not just in the state that brought us the Scopes trial in an earlier era, are witch-hunts, witch-hunts against teachers who teach facts and a statewide initiative to ban public health outreach to teens, leading us to wonder, what the hell is going on in Tennessee and, frankly, in America?

Joining me now to help make sense of this is Tiffany Cross, host of "THE CROSS CONNECTION" right here on MSNBC.

And, Tiffany, I told you during the break out of losing my ability to display...

TIFFANY CROSS, HOST, "THE CROSS CONNECTION": Yes. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

REID: ... composure.

Let`s go back. I`m going to put a pin in Mr. Hawn for just a moment. Let`s go back to this vaccine outreach.

According to Tennessee`s now new rules, they can`t -- if the health department wants to issue any information about vaccine, staff are instructed to strip their logo off the documents. The health department is going to stop all COVID-19 -- COVID-19 vaccine events on school property. They will no longer send postcards or other notices reminding teens to get their second dose.

Teens will be excluded from the postcards, so that they`re not participating in solicitation of minors. Basically, they`re saying don`t protect kids from COVID.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Make this make sense.

CROSS: I wish I could, Joy.

REID: You have that on your cell -- on your phone. Make it make sense. Make it make sense.

CROSS: Exactly. Exactly.

I wish I could. So this is so ridiculous. So, the fact that she was fired because there is a legal doctrine that says, if you`re 14 years or older...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... you can get vaccinated without your parents` permission.

This is the problem that they have with that. They are so married to this crazy MAGA madman, they`re willing to die for him. So the local officials there now have to contend with false information...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... misinformation on social media, political influence based in nothing but ignorance.

And it`s creating havoc there. They`re averaging 460 cases a day there, while vaccination rates have stalled. And I just want to say this, and I want to talk to the folks at home, because there are people in our community, Joy...

REID: Yes.

CROSS: ... who are still very frightened about this vaccine.

And I want to say to you, if you are in the minority community, if you`re a person of color, the fact that the only people who are aligning with your point of view right now are in this MAGA madman mob, please do reconsider your position.

REID: A hundred percent. Don`t let them kill you.

CROSS: Right.

REID: I think, at this point, I feel the same way.

The people that I have true empathy for are the people in black and brown communities and indigenous communities...

CROSS: Yes.

REID: ... who are literally, because they`re being led in states by people who are part of the cult -- and it is a death cult.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Because they are willing to die. And they seem to actually want to get COVID. And they want to spread COVID.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: And they want the right to spread COVID.

Please, black folks, brown folks...

CROSS: Yes.

REID: ... people of color, don`t let them kill you. Don`t let them...

CROSS: Don`t be a fool. Don`t hitch your wagon to these fools.

REID: And let`s just show -- just to show you that nexus here in these ideologies.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Here are the 19 states with bans on critical race theory, where they have been introduced or passed. This is the map. We`re going to put that up on screen. We are going to leave that up for a minute. OK, that`s that map. Keep that in your head for a moment.

Now let`s look at the 30 states that have less than 50 percent people vaccinated. Look for just a moment. OK, do you see how they`re similar?

CROSS: The overlay.

REID: So, you`re -- OK, so let`s now move on to this high school teacher.

Let me let you listen to -- this is Matthew Hawn. And he`s tenured. He`s in Sullivan County, Tennessee, facing termination. And here he is talking about Donald Trump. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAWN: We elected someone who spoke like this to the highest office in the land. And now we`re upset that an African-American author is quoting that president.

It`s kind of a double standard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: So, he`s talking -- he`s talking about the Ta-Nehisi Coates piece "The First White President."

CROSS: Yes.

REID: I taught -- I assigned that to my students, to my white students at Syracuse.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: It didn`t break them.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Please make it make sense. What he was upset about is that Ta-Nehisi actually quoted something that Steve Bannon and Trump said.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: And it was quoted in there. And they didn`t like it.

Please explain.

CROSS: Right.

I mean, it`s kind of insulting, so insulting that Ta-Nehisi Coates is even mentioned with these people, right?

REID: Yes.

CROSS: Somebody who said, just because you believe it`s fact don`t make it a fact.

REID: Correct.

CROSS: You know?

REID: Correct.

CROSS: Yes, it`s really unfortunate, Joy.

I mean, but I think the bigger case here, because we could easily get caught up in this one teacher, which -- as ridiculous as it is. But this is a fight with the school board.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: And so a lot of conservatives who want to run for office, they use local school boards as their launching pad. And there`s actually data behind this that people who are elected to school boards are typically white, wealthier.

They`re almost carpetbaggers who insert themselves in this, and then they get to the state legislature, and they obliterate voting rights.

REID: Right.

CROSS: And so, when we have something like this, look, I don`t have to tell your viewers. They already know how ridiculous the argument is to make.

But I think the bigger strategy point is, how do you stop this from happening at the school board level...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... because there has to be policy to prevent this kind of thing.

And that is the key. If they can take away our history, and they can rewrite the narrative, then they take away the ability to speak a truthful story about this country. And they don`t -- I sometimes wonder, is it that they don`t know or that they don`t want everybody else to know.

REID: Right.

CROSS: And I really do think they know. They know what they have done, but they don`t want other people to know.

And it`s very strategic, the way that they have streamlined a new narrative. There`s a case in Connecticut where they falsely say that the enslaved people were like workers.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: In Alabama, there are textbooks that say...

REID: Yes.

CROSS: ... slavery was the happiest time in the country.

So these are the things that they`re indoctrinating these kids with. And you and I both got two educations. We got what the school taught us. And then we got what we were taught at home...

REID: Right.

CROSS: ... which informed our world view in a much more, I would say, comprehensive way than what our counterparts had.

REID: Yes.

Well, the -- and the irony is, they`re proving Ta-Nehisi Coates` piece right.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Because what he said is that he sort of empowered white Americans to say that we`re going to use, like, the power of our whiteness...

CROSS: Right.

REID: ... to obliterate the existence of the first black president, and now they`re trying to obliterate the history of this country that has to do with us.

They`re kind of proving his point.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: They`re also driving a lot of teachers out of the business. People are saying they`re quitting. They`re under so much pressure.

And they`re saying openly -- there was a piece -- I think it was in "The National Review" -- saying, run for school board.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Take over the schools. We get the schools and we get the culture back.

CROSS: Exactly.

But the ridiculousness of how the leading -- one of the leading intellectuals in this country, his name is even in this fight with half- witted, low, intellectually...

REID: How?

CROSS: Like without any intellectual curiosity on a school board. So...

REID: They need to read some Ta-Nehisi Coates.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: They might be smarter.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Tiffany Cross, thank you very much.

Everybody should watch "THE CROSS CONNECTION" every weekend. You got to watch it 10:00 a.m. to noon every weekend on MSNBC.

A quick note before we go to break: MSNBC is celebrating its 25th anniversary this weekend. MSNBC Daily is featuring 25 days of essays on important topics from MSNBC authors, hosts and correspondents.

And, today, you can read my thoughts on how our history informs our present. You can read it now at MSNBC.com/TheNext25.

Sorry.

Still ahead -- choked myself up -- abortion rights groups are fighting back against a new Texas law. But get this. You just can`t make this stuff up. It deputizes citizens as abortion bounty hunters.

Alexis McGill Johnson, president of Planned Parenthood, joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The right has made it their mission to do everything they can to take away a woman`s right to choose. And now they have reached a new low in Texas.

The state`s new law not only bans abortions after six weeks, before most women even know that they`re pregnant, but it effectively deputized as private citizens to become bounty hunters. Instead of relying on the government to enforce the ban, which right now -- at least for now -- is unconstitutional under Roe v. Wade, it allows any old body to sue abortion providers and anyone who helps a woman obtain an abortion, with a bounty of $10,000 if they`re successful.

As Jennifer Rubin points out, the party that is supposedly faithful to the Constitution and to law and order is instead taking refuge in Kafkaesque rulemaking that empowers individuals and state authorities to harass, intimidate and confuse Americans.

Planned Parenthood and other groups are now suing to block this law, arguing that it will create absolute chaos in Texas and irreparably harm Texans in need of abortion services.

I`m joined now by Alexis McGill Johnson, president and CEO of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Thank you for being on, Ms. McGill Johnson.

I lost my ability -- I thought I`d lost my ability to be surprised. I thought it was gone. And then this happened. Your thoughts on this law?

ALEXIS MCGILL JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, PLANNED PARENTHOOD: And, I mean, the cruelty is the point here, Joy.

And I think you said it so plainly, right? I mean, this is a state that supposedly loves defending the Constitution, right, loves protecting rights. And yet it`s a state where they don`t even love thy neighbor, right? They`re talking about sue thy neighbor.

They`re talking about pitting family members against family members, friends against friends, and encouraging anyone in literally any state who does not believe in abortion or just needs $10,000 to go after anyone who is supporting someone who is getting access to abortion.

That could be an abortion provider. It could be a health center. It could be a fund. It could be a donor. It can also be an Uber driver.

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: Who knows where the bounds end? It could be an ex- boyfriend, right?

So, like the extreme -- the extremity of this law makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

REID: Let me just read a little bit from the -- this is from the Planned Parenthood lawsuit. And this is called SB-8 is the name of the law.

"It will force abortion providers and others who are sued to spend massive amounts of time and money to defend themselves in lawsuits across the state in which the deck is heavily stacked against them. The burdens of this cruel law will fall most heavily on black, Latinx and indigenous patients, who, because of systemic racism, already encounter substantial barriers to obtaining health care."

But you just made a really important point, because it`s not just the health care providers. It`s the Uber driver or Lyft driver who drives a woman to the health care center. It`s having neighbors spying on women who: Hey, wasn`t Jessica pregnant last week? She`s not pregnant now. I think I might turn her in and get myself $10,000. Hey, let me spy on my in-law. She was pregnant. How pregnant was she, actually?

It`s -- we like to throw around "Handmaid`s Tale" as a sort of -- sort of reference point for what the Republican Party has deteriorated into, but now they have decided, hold my beer, we`re just going to go ahead and do it, people informing on people. What are we, the Soviet Union in the `80s?

I -- I`m sorry. Keep talking, because I`m just going to keep yelling.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

MCGILL JOHNSON: No, I mean, it does. It feel so dystopian already, right?

I mean, and we know, look, 85 percent of patients at Planned Parenthood health centers come in after six weeks to get access to abortion, right? And that`s normal, right, because six weeks is very, very early in a pregnancy. And so by -- most people don`t even know they are pregnant before six weeks.

And so now you are creating a universe where anybody can be incentivized, with a perverse incentive, to come in and to actually say, I`m going to figure out what happened to Becky`s pregnancy, and did she terminate it or not, and then go seek information in order to get this bounty.

The Texas state doesn`t want to enforce the law. I think that`s what`s so important here, right, that they have decided that, rather than enforce the law themselves, they`re going to conscript everyday Americans to come in and...

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: And judges to basically drive this strategy for them, right, and to engage in their rigged proceedings. It makes no sense, really.

REID: And isn`t -- I mean, if somebody had a miscarriage, for instance, and went into the hospital for a miscarriage, in theory, if they took a Lyft because they were in pain and bleeding, everyone involved in taking this -- if they -- if somebody accused them, or maybe the Lyft driver looked back and thought, hey, I wonder if this person had an abortion?

I mean, it literally turns citizens into spies on each other.

Let me ask you about Planned Parenthood`s long-term strategery. There was a member of Congress who claims he went to high school with Amy Coney Barrett and knows for sure that she`s going to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Has Planned Parenthood began to plan for a world in which Roe is gone? Because it does appear that this 6-3 right-wing, far right-wing court is going to kill it. They`re going to get rid of it. What is the plan?

MCGILL JOHNSON: You know, look, we are going to fight as hard as we can with all of our movement partners and our -- and with all of our state partners to make sure that we are -- that we have a provider response.

We know in many states Roe is already ineffectually gone. We know that they have -- they have continued with the number of restrictions that we have seen just this year, over 600 to strip away access, put in these waiting periods, continue to shame and stigmatize people who are providing abortion, the patients themselves.

So we have seen it during COVID. We know what the world looks like without Roe. What`s dangerous about this particular case is that, if we are not able to block SB-8 in Texas, if we are not able to block which should be a regular unconstitutional ban -- every six-week ban has been blocked -- it means that 26 states are poised to follow in a copycat manner this same strategy.

So that is -- that`s why we felt it was so important with our partners at Center for Reproductive Rights and the ACLU and the...

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Yes.

MCGILL JOHNSON: ... project and (INAUDIBLE) to come in and say, we have got to stop this here in Texas and make sure this does not flourish throughout the country, while we also fight that provider response and that movement response and that mobilization response around -- around what will happen -- you know, what we hope does not happen in Mississippi, but what we need to care for.

REID: Yes, or federally.

If Republicans get their hands on the Senate and the House again, they could pass a federal one, and then we`re back in -- in 1850, they did have a Fugitive Slave Act, where you could make yourself a little money if you could catch somebody who`d run away from enslavement, get yourself a little chunk of change that way too.

This country is had a lot of weird history. And it ain`t over yet.

Alexis McGill Johnson, thank you very much. And good luck. Godspeed.

Still ahead: If you thought that Trump`s big lie originated with orange Jim Jones himself, think again. The true origin story is next. And its antihero is tonight`s absolute worst.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:43:54]

REID: We`ve talked a lot about the big lie that fueled the January 6th insurrection and the extraordinary lengths that Republicans are willing to go to to promote and defend it. Well, now, we`re learning that the big lie was actually hatched on election night, even before the results were in. And like most bad ideas, it began with Rudy Giuliani.

That`s according to the new book "I Alone Can Fix It: Donald Trump`s Catastrophic Final Year" by "Washington Post" reporters Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker.

They write on the evening of November 3rd as members of the Trump campaign awaited election results, Giuliani started to cause a commotion. He was telling other guests he had come up with a strategy for Trump. And, unsurprisingly, some people thought Giuliani may have been drinking too much.

When he finally spoke to campaign staff, the New York mayor-turned-Trump lawyer told him to, quote, just say we won. You hear that correctly. Giuliani`s grand plan was to just say Trump won, state after state, based on nothing. At the time even Trump`s top staff thought his argument was both incoherent and irresponsible. We now know however that Trump took Giuliani`s advice, which eventually cost Rudy his law license and the big lie continues to poison our politics to this very day.

[19:45:00]

As we`ve seen Trump and his allies are so invested in it, they`re now trying to portray the Capitol siege as an act of patriotism.

And most disturbing of all, they are trying to exploit the death of one particular insurrectionist, one Ashli Babbitt, for political purposes, turning her into a martyr for supposedly righteous cause.

And as ridiculous as that idea is, Rudy Giuliani took that phony narrative to a whole new level yesterday, baselessly claiming that Babbitt shooting was part of a conspiratorial plot involving the Capitol Police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, TRUMP PERSONAL LAWYER: This was a completely phony operation here. They tried -- they tried to take this unfortunate trespass, which shouldn`t have been done, and make it into an insurrection. Well, first of all, this is the only insurrection in which a shot wasn`t fired. The only shot fired is the one shot by the police officer at an unarmed woman, which they don`t want to talk about. So there`s a whole plot behind this and I`m not sure I understand all of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Okay, maybe he`s drinking again because that`s not just in incoherent, it`s illogical. There`s about as much evidence of a plot to kill this one particular insurrectionist as there is in China flew in bamboo fiber ballots and swapped them for millions of Trump votes, then fed the real Trump votes to chickens. What actually happened on January 6th is well-documented, it`s on tape.

As "The New York Times" showed in its recent video investigation, Babbitt was part of the violent mob trying to force their way into the House chamber at the time that lawmakers were literally fleeing for their lives. I should warn you what happened next is very graphic and disturbing. Police had their guns drawn but Babbitt ignored their warnings.

She attempted to climb through the broken window into the speaker`s lobby and that`s when an officer opened fire, firing a single shot.

In doing so, that officer stopped the mob who would have inevitably followed Babbitt. He very likely prevented them from reaching the members of Congress that he is sworn to protect. That is the job of law enforcement literally. And as the video clearly shows, that officer did what was necessary under difficult and unpredictable circumstances. So Giuliani`s claim that the shooting was somehow orchestrated is frankly unhinged.

If anything, Babbitt was a victim of the big lie that Giuliani helped create. That`s what makes him tonight`s absolute worst.

But it`s also ironic that Rudy, Rudy Giuliani of all people, would side with a Capitol insurrectionist over law enforcement, and that is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:51:39]

REID: Rudy Giuliani dined out for years on the moniker of America`s mayor. But talk to any black or brown New Yorker and they`ll tell you a very different story. During his two terms in office, Giuliani gave the New York Police Department carte blanche to run roughshod in the city`s communities of color with zero accountability.

It all started in 1992 when he joined 10,000 rioters, nearly all white, off-duty NYPD officers, who were participating in a Patrolmen`s Benevolent Association demonstration against then-Mayor David Dinkins` call for a civilian complaint review board. Candidate Giuliani joined those officers, some of whom chanted the N-word, cursing the city`s first black mayor through a bullhorn.

In 1999, Mayor Giuliani ardently defended the police department after Amado Diallo, an unarmed black immigrant who worked as a vendor, was shot 41 times as he reached for his ID. The police officers involved in the shooting were acquitted of the crime.

A few weeks later, Patrick Dorismond, an unarmed security guard from Brooklyn, was waiting for a taxi outside a nightclub when undercover detectives approached him and sought to buy drugs. He said he didn`t sell drugs. The cops insisted. Dorismond shoved one away and the officer shot him in the chest. He bled to death moments later.

Amid furious protests, Giuliani rushed to the officer`s defense by releasing Dorismond`s sealed juvenile record which had nothing to do with the incident. Why? Because he felt he had a duty to defend the police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: I`m giving you facts that you resist printing that tend to suggest that the police officers may have been justified.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Reverend Al Sharpton pushed back at Giuliani at the time, saying he was hiding the facts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: They decided to discount contrary evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: A few days later, Giuliani told reporters that he had no regrets about what he did.

Joining me now Reverend Al Sharpton, National Action Network president and host of "POLITICS NATION" on MSNBC. And Michael Daly, special correspondent for "The Daily Beast".

Thank you for being here.

And, Rev, I`m so glad you were available to talk. I know you`re in Philadelphia where the president was speaking. But I just had to get your take on Rudy Giuliani suddenly deciding that he`s against the police when it comes to Capitol Police officers saving the lives of members of Congress when you know his history, I lived in New York in his era, that -- there was never a police shooting, particularly of somebody black, that he didn`t support. What do you make of his change of mind?

SHARPTON: Absolutely. I think this is among the most despicable things that I`ve seen him do because you outlined two cases that were celebrated cases while he was mayor. Don`t forget, in the Diallo shooting that you referred to, shot at 41 times, that this young man was going in his home. He had the key in his door, in the foyer of his building, and was unarmed.

Giuliani`s talking about somebody unarmed. And Giuliani defended them.

There was this protest we had for 11 days, hundreds of people go and lay down in front of one police plaza including the former Mayor Dave Dinkins and all of us were arrested on a daily basis. He refused to even meet with the black officials to discuss the case, including the sitting state comptroller at the time, H. Carl McCall.

[19:55:03]

So, all of a sudden, he discovers law enforcement shooting unarmed police? It is clearly for him to try and in some way get around this insurrection, get around this attempted coup d`etat, and to misuse the death of this woman to try and in some way castigate those officers and not deal with the fact that they in fact were dealing with an insurrection to stop the legitimate certification of the vote of the American people.

And it`s certainly something that is totally contrary to his record as the mayor of New York and the rest of his life. He always said don`t question police, even when they kill unarmed people.

REID: I mean, Michael Daly, you`ve covered Rudy Giuliani. I mean, it was so bad that there were people who felt that he was so much more in favor of police that he neglected the Fire Department, that they didn`t get the good radios before 9/11. He was just -- he was all in for whatever police did. The Abner Louima case, I could go on and on.

What do you think of -- what do you think of seeing him now suddenly turn on the police because he`s so for Trump?

MICHAEL DALY, SPECIAL CORRESSPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST: You look at the Dorismond case. He did, you know -- he said the juvenile record? That was Dorismond punched -- he was 11 years old and he punched a kid in a fight over a quarter. So, he tried to make that into a crime.

He said, this -- he`s no altar boy. Well, guess what? He was an altar boy, literally.

REID: Yeah, he was.

DALY: And he was buried at a church where he was an altar boy.

And so, his reflex was not just to put the cops -- it was slime the person that was murdered. And here you have a situation where he`s elevating her. And I`m not saying that she deserves anything other than that. But the lesson here is Rudy Giuliani was never pro-police. He was pro-Rudy Giuliani.

And I think he`s not even a white supremacist. He`s a Rudy supremacist. In the same way I think he`s a Trump supremacist.

And with both of them -- I mean, they talk about the cops and they like this and this. When it gets down to it, you had all these police officers savagely assaulted and they act like it didn`t happen. So, what that means is that neither one of them was ever actually pro police.

REID: Yeah.

DALY: Neither one of them was actually in support of law and order. Which means it was always just about themselves. Surprise, surprise.

REID: I think -- I think that`s so true. And, Rev, you know Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani very well. That seems just absolutely inalterably true. They were on the side of police when it was convenient. They really don`t care about them or anybody else, right? I mean, right?

SHARPTON: It`s only about them. It`s only about them. And I think that what people need to understand around the nation that watch you is that the Dorismond case, the Louima case as well as the case of Diallo, they were not in the middle of a violent situation, let alone an insurrection. They were people that were shot and killed unarmed when there was no incident that the police were responding to. They were responding to an insurrection at the capitol.

I`m not saying this young lady should die. I`m not at all castigating this young lady. But we are talking about a police reaction to an insurrection where there was clear and present danger to members of Congress and members of the Senate, and the vice president of the United States, by the way, which was there, a vice president.

With Dorismond, Diallo and Louima there was no violent incident. They were responding to nothing, in their own imagination. And Rudy Giuliani defended those police.

REID: Well, and, Michael Daly, they were also responding to the fact that Rudy Giuliani had this plainclothes police force that was running roughshod throughout New York, hunting for drug-related crimes, right? I mean, this was something Rudy Giuliani wanted done.

DALY: Yeah. And also, if you look at poor Patrick Dorismond, he`s 25 years old, right? He`s worked all week. He`s tired. He wants to get a cab home. He wasn`t waiting for a cab. He`s trying to get a cab.

He`s black and one yellow cab after another goes past him. So then after that happens, some guy comes up and says he wants some drugs. He wanted to sell me some drugs. Oh, he`s coming up to me because I`m black. First I can`t get a cab because I`m black and this guy`s coming up to me because I`m black. So he gets a little cranky.

All he did is say a couple of words. Next then you know the guy`s partner shoots and kills him. (INAUDIBLE)

REID: Yeah. It is.

Last word to you, Rev. What do you make of the people who tell black folks who get killed by police if he had just complied? Now, in this case, this woman was not complying. She was defying an officer and committing an insurrection. But they`re saying she`s supposed to be a martyr.

SHARPTON: I think that they are trying to make a martyr of a cause that didn`t exist. Let us remember. They were in the middle of an insurrection.

REID: That`s right.

SHARPTON: And the officers had a duty to protect the people --

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: And they want to out this officer`s identity, which would put that officer in jeopardy.

Reverend Al Sharpton, Michael Daly, thank you.

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.