Summary
Cosby accusers speak out. Court overturns Cosby conviction due to unconstitutional coercive bait-and-switch. Cosby is home from prison after court overturns conviction. Cosby accuser, Heidi Thomas says the decision is a gut punch. Accuser Andrea Constand is disappointed and concerned this may discourage other survivors. Co-star Phylicia Rashad defends Bill Cosby. Only two Republicans voted to create a select committee to investigate the January 6th attack on U.S. Capitol. "The Washington Post" reported a grand jury in Manhattan filed criminal indictments Wednesday against former President Donald Trump`s company and its chief financial officer, according to two people familiar with the indictments.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: That does it for me. "THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid starts now. Hi, Joy.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Hey, Ari. I`m going to figuring how you engineered this to be an all news summer an all legal news summer. It`s like all legal news stories. I think you made this happen.
MELBER: It`s a lot of law.
REID: It`s a lot of law. All right, have a wonderful evening, thank you very much.
Thank you all for watching, good evening. Okay, everyone, will this is one of those nights when you throw out planning because there`s just so much news and then there`s more news and you throw out plan B. We are following just a crush of breaking news tonight. I mean, it`s not every day that a company belonging to a former president of the United States gets criminally charged, especially when that former president built his entire mint and reputation around the company. And yet, NBC News is reporting that`s exactly what`s going to happen to Donald Trump`s family business, probably tomorrow.
Also just two, two Republicans voted with Democrats today to investigate one of the worst security breaches in American history, the January 6th insurrection. And the sad thing is you can probably guess which two, and they remain alone in their party.
But we begin THE REIDOUT tonight with the high-profile prosecutorial mishap that led to the shocking and very much unexpected release of Bill Cosby this afternoon. Cosby, who was two years into his ten-year sentence for drugging and assaulting a woman walked free after Pennsylvania`s Supreme Court overturned the conviction not because they found Cosby innocent but because they ruled that an agreement with a previous prosecutor prevented him from being charged. And what the court described as an unconstitutional coercive bait-and-switch, prosecutors originally said Cosby wouldn`t be charged so he could testify in a civil case.
The court notes that Cosby did not invoke the Fifth Amendment before he incriminated himself because he was operating under the reasonable belief the D.A.`s Castor decision not to prosecute him meant that the potential exposure to criminal punishment no longer existed. Cosby`s sworn testimony was then used by D.A. Castor`s successors against Cosby at Cosby`s criminal trial. And to make matters even weirder, that district attorney, Bruce Castor, was one of Donald Trump`s impeachment lawyers because the universe is collapsing before our eyes.
Cosby`s 2018 conviction was a huge deal, not only was the first major conviction of the Me Too era but it was a conviction against one of the most beloved figures in American culture. Bill Cosby was, as he was once dubbed, America`s dad. The Cosby Show meant a lot to so many of us. It was a positive portrayal of an affluent black family at a time when most depictions of black people in American culture were of poor working class families. And the news was dominated with headlines about crime and the crack epidemic.
Cosby spokesman called his release today, quote, justice for black America. Seriously? I don`t know about that. But even though it was really devastating to listen to, the accusations against Cosby, some going as far back as the 1960s, were impossible to dismiss, more and more women came forward throughout the years with 60, 60 accusing of allegations, ranging from groping to sexual assault to rape.
NBC`s Dateline spoke with some of those women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How many of you believe you were drugged by Bill Cosby. How many of you believe Bill Cosby raped you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was drugged and raped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was sexually assaulted and drugged by him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He flipped me over and raped me. I know that I was drugged.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And very quickly the room started spinning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I was just holding my head because I didn`t know what was happening and that was what was so terrifying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Cosby`s attorneys claim these things never happened. Andrea Constand was the only accuser that made it to trial with Cosby convicted of three counts of indecent assault. In a statement with her lawyer, she said that today`s majority decision regarding Bill Cosby is not only disappointing but of concern in that it may discourage for those who seek justice for sexual assault. Cosby has repeatedly denied all allegations of sexual misconduct, and says his conduct with Constand was consensual. And said in 2019 or claimed in 2019, the quote, when I came up for parole, they`re not come up for a parole, they`re not going to hear me say that I have remorse.
He celebrated his release outside his home in suburban Philadelphia this afternoon and later, in a radio interview, framed it as a movement for social justice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL COSBY, ACTOR (voice over): This is it not just a black thing. This is for all the people who have been imprisoned wrongfully regardless of race, color or creed. Because I met them in there, people who talked about what happened and what they did. And I know there are many liars out there, but these people can`t get lawyers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now, NBC News Correspondent Stephanie Gosk outside of Cosby`s home in Elkins Park, Pennsylvania. Describe, I guess, the scene there and what`s the latest, Stephanie.
STEPHANIE GOSK, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Joy. You know, it`s really wild. I covered both the trials, the trial in 2017 where there was a hung jury and then the second trial, when they went back in and got the conviction. And I must have said a half a dozen, a dozen times it`s unlikely Bill Cosby will get out of prison. He was old and frail, and the sentence that he was given was going to be tough.
But here he was today, at his home, a free man, his record is clean. He cannot be retried on these charges, and he came out with his longtime spokesman, Andrew Wyatt, and they were celebrating. They were celebrating this decision.
But as you pointed out in your lead-in, there are a lot of women out there who accused Bill Cosby of some form of sexual assault, and it`s a range of things from groping all the way to rape. A lot of those women were not able to bring or did not choose to bring criminal charges against Bill Cosby and the statute of limitations simply expired.
And they looked at this case, Andrea Constand`s accusation and charges and the conviction as their justice. And now, in their minds, that justice has been rolled back. As the district attorney who brought those charges said today, Cosby was convicted by a jury but he was let go on a procedural issue. And he echoed Andrea Constand`s comments as well saying, he hopes that the decision that was made today isn`t going to have an impact on women who are sexually assaulted and deter them potentially from coming forward. Joy?
REID: It`s hard to imagine it not doing so. Stephanie Gosk, thank you very much. I really appreciate your coverage.
Joining me is Heidi Thomas who accused Cosby of sexual assault and testified in Cosby`s retrial. And Kristen Gibbons Feden, a former Special Prosecutor in the Cosby case and an MSNBC Legal Analyst.
And, Ms. Thomas, I have to start with you to get your reaction to this pretty shocking development today.
HEIDI THOMAS, BILL COSBY ACCUSER: Yes. It`s a gut punch.
REID: Were you -- was there any warning given to you and any of the other victims, did you get a warning that this was coming? Did you have any idea?
THOMAS: None, none. In fact, we were contacted just within the last two to three weeks by the parole board. He was refused, and the Victims Advocate Office reaches out to us ahead of time to let us know that he`s up for parole. He has never -- as he`s made very clear, he never has admitted that he did anything wrong and he has not taken part in any kind of assault program, sexual offender program. And, of course, his lawyers started yelling appeal the minute the guilty verdict came through. Of course, that happens.
REID: Can you talk about what happened to you?
THOMAS: Sure. What part do you want to know?
REID: Just how did you meet Bill Cosby? Very -- you don`t have to go through every detail but what happened to you that you feel he should be prosecuted for in your case?
THOMAS: Well, I mean, I can certainly tell you, I was 24 years old. I was sent to him by my agent in Denver, my airline ticket, my hotel room were all paid for by the agency to go to him in Reno, Nevada, where he was playing. And, supposedly, I was going to be getting acting coaching. And this was arranged through the agent supposedly to promising young talent.
I was not taken to the hotel where I had a reservation. I was taken to a ranch house outside of Reno somewhere, this was before cell phones. I had no idea where I was. And I was sexually assaulted and raped at that ranch house at the time not being able to remember four days of being there.
I, in retrospect, figured it was my own brain and my own psyche trying to protect me. So I didn`t try to remember anything. It was 30 years of recognizing that if I had gone forward, I would have been let go from my agency, my career would have been over. So, going forward was, it was pointless. No one was going to believe me, and I would have lost my job. And 30 years later, I started hearing people, these women saying they were drugged, and I thought, oh, I bet that`s what happened.
So that`s kind of my story. I think, you know, the fact is, this was Andrea Constand`s case. And the fact that there were over -- there were 60 of us that could back her up --
REID: Yes.
THOMAS: -- you know, I just -- it`s -- it floors (ph) me.
REID: It`s unimaginable. I need to get to Kristen Gibbons Feden in, because I have to know how this went wrong. Like how could it be that a -- this prosecutor who -- the weirdest -- I mean, it`s weird enough he was Trump`s lawyer to an impeachment, somebody who also has been serially accused of sexual -- everything, from sexual harassment to all the way up to a case of rape by E. Jean Carroll. How did this go wrong?
THOMAS: Great question.
KRISTEN GIBBONS FEDEN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Honestly, Joy, I totally respect our esteemed (INAUDIBLE) in Pennsylvania, but when you say how did this go wrong, I want to say that my version of the facts and as well as Kevin Steele`s and the way our prosecutorial team worked is we don`t believe that there was any statement or any promise made to begin with, and we proved that at the early stages of the pretrial hearing. We -- the common police court found that there was no agreement, no promise made. And in addition to that, Joy, the superior court of Pennsylvania also agreed with our finding.
The other thing I wanted to highlight is that not only do we believe that there was no prosecutorial agreement made but, generally, if one is to be made. You see these in homicides to allow one bit witness to testify against one another. This is not what Bruce Castor is alleging happened here. He`s alleging that he made a promise not to prosecute someone so that they can go the civil realm. I have never heard of that ever happening in my entirety legal career.
Notwithstanding that, How he was represented by competent counsel. Don`t you think that that would have been put in writing and approved by a court as it is in the normal course? And then throw in the fact, Joy, that certainly after he allegedly made this promise, he issues out a press release, which I understand and respect the judge`s findings on what this press release makes to them, but he then issues at a press release where he makes very clear in that press release, I will revisit the decision if the need arises.
REID: Right.
FEDEN: So we under -- we don`t believe that we made any misstep. I respectfully disagree with the justice`s opinion here today, but I think, as Heidi pointed out, and it`s so great to see you, Heidi, you are amazing, Heidi was one of the courageous women who testified in the second trial, but as Heidi pointed out, you know, that jury, this may take away the conviction but it will never take away those three words that 12 of Cosby`s peers and 12 of Andrea`s peers said to Cosby that day in court, they said guilty, guilty, guilty.
And while the guilty no longer stands the factual finding behind it still does. That factual finding is that when he administered those intoxicants to Andrea Constand rendering her incapable of consent, he then sexually assaulted her and that will be forever known by this country.
REID: Heidi, I want to give you the last word here. What do you think should happen now? I mean, he`s already on the radio doing an interview. What do you think happens now?
THOMAS: Which is -- he`s an attention grabber, which is hilarious. Because, you know, everybody said that`s what all of us are. We want our 15 minutes of fame. All he wants is to be back in the spotlight. So we`ve played right into everything he wanted.
I think this goes back years. I don`t imagine anybody is going to want to go through this kind of pain, this kind of work. The work that, by the way, we called the district attorney`s office the dream team, so thank you, Sweetie, it`s great to see you too. But I can`t imagine anybody wanting to go through all of this if it can be turned over when there`s absolutely no legal proof there was ever an agreement. What the heck did we all do? We were sucker punched.
REID: Yes, it`s pretty unimaginable. But I appreciate you coming forward and I appreciate you using your voice. I definitely appreciate you, Heidi Thomas, as well as Kristen Gibbons Feden. Thank you for clarifying some of that for us. I really appreciate it.
Okay. Joining me now, my friend, Chris Witherspoon, Entertainment Journalist and Founder and CEO of Pop Viewers.
And, Chris, I don`t know if you heard those ladies the passion in their voices. I mean, this was a-- it was an earthquake when Bill Cosby was convicted the first time. I know that you covered it. What do you make of the fact that he not only walks away from this case but is already doing radio interviews and is declaring himself triumphant and tried -- his lawyer, his publicist tried to call it a victory for black America?What?
CHRIS WITHERSPOON, PCP CULTURE JOURNALIST: No, I`m absolutely shocked. First off, Joy, I remember being on your show in 2015 on your daytime show, and it was an earthquake, to your point. I mean, as you mentioned earlier, he was America`s dad. I mean, you can`t ask a black person in this country to describe a moment from their childhood that might not involve Bill Cosby if you`re under the age of 40, because he had two shows on T.V. that were huge shows.
And I get how him and his legal defense team and publicist and his managers might want to somehow salvage his legacy, but I got to say after you look at 60 accusers, 60 women and the stories that we`ve heard over the past six years, this is 2015, from not just white women but black women, Beverly Johnson who came forward, and who had so much to risk by standing in her truth and telling her story, and the backlash that she got from the black community for doing so, it just seems foolish and it seems insensitive for his team to state that now.
REID: So, speaking of that, okay, here are some of the statements. So, Eden Tirl, who`s one of the accusers that she`s completely out of breath, Kate Snow said she did not expect, it was out of the blue, Janice Baker- Kinney said she stunned, no words, sick to my stomach, Victoria Valentino, on CNN, it`s a gut punch, what does that say about a woman`s worth, of course, E. Jean Caroll, who has accused Donald Trump of rape, has said, this is why women don`t come forward, and then, Chris, there`s Phylicia Rashad --
WITHERSPOON: Yes.
REID: -- who co-starred obviously as Claire Huxtable on the Cosby show, who we all grow up with the sort of extra mom, and she tweets, finally, a terrible wrong is being right and a miscarriage of justice is corrected. She later tweeted she fully supports survivors of sexual assault. But, my God, what is happening? Explain.
WITHERSPOON: Listen, I was shocked when I saw that tweet, first off, let me just say Phylicia Rashad is a legend.
REID: She is.
WITHERSPOON: She deserves all the nice thing. But I got to say, as a journalist, I remember back in 2015 interviewing Phylicia Rashd about a project she was doing, you know, and then a couple of the years later for another project. Cosby has been the elephant in the room, the monkey on the back. You know, he`s been the thing that is really, I think in so many ways, hurt people like Phylicia Rashad and Malcolm-Jamal Warner and Keisha Knight Pulliam`s career.
So, really, moving forward, publicists will literally will walk over to you in the room and say you cannot bring up Bill Cosby. And in many ways, one could argue that they were guilty by association because of what has happened. So I think, in many ways, this is a day for her to feel liberated and to, once again, be able to decompress and not have to think about Cosby.
REID: I wish we could all be there but we can`t. I mean, this has taken over our news. You know, it`s our A block, this was not intended to be our A block, but here we are. Chris Witherspoon, thank you very much, my friend. I really appreciate you being here, the best.
All right, coming up next on THE REIDOUT, more breaking news, more. We`re just hours away from expected criminal charges against the Trump Organization, the unprecedented legal jeopardy facing a former American president and it could be the first domino to fall.
Plus, the sedition caucus strikes again, defending the confederate trader traders who launched America`s first insurrection while yet again voting almost to a man and woman against an investigation into the second one, the deadly siege of the U.S. Capitol on January 6th.
And what do you call a politician who sells her state`s National Guard troops to a billionaire political donor? We call it tonight absolute worst.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: Now to today`s other major story.
Representatives for the Trump Organization tell NBC News that they expect the company to be criminally charged in New York tomorrow. And that may also include long-awaited charges against the company`s CFO, Allen Weisselberg.
Now, while this will mark the first criminal indictment of the Trump Organization, it`s faced allegations of wrongdoing for years, including allegations of fraud, discrimination, falsifying records, and money laundering, just to name a few.
But Trump`s lawyer Ronald Fischetti says the only charges to drop tomorrow will be related to the company`s alleged failures to pay taxes on corporate benefits, benefits like the free apartment and tuition that they reportedly gave to Weisselberg`s family.
For days now, we have heard Fischetti downplay the severity of these possible tax-related charges. But tax crimes are nothing to sneeze at. In fact, it was tax evasion charges that finally took down one of this country`s most notorious criminals, mafia kingpin Al Capone.
Investigators knew Capone was behind the increasingly violent bootlegging racket run out of Chicago, and they knew he was most likely responsible for countless murders, including the Saint Valentine`s Day Massacre that left seven people dead.
But what they could prove was tax evasion. And that`s all that mattered in a court of law, where Capone was convicted and sentenced to a decade in prison.
And to take the mafia analogy back to Trump, people who`ve covered him and worked for him have described him as operating like a mob boss. One of the things that we know is that it would not exactly be out of character for Trump to cheat on his taxes. He even bragged about it, saying it made him smart.
As "The New York Times" revealed in 2018, Trump and his family, starting with his father, Klan-curious Queens builder Fred Trump, have a -- have a decades-long history of evading income taxes, as well as gift and estate taxes, likely in violation of the law, and getting away with it.
And Donald Trump is now accused of criminally concealing tens of millions of dollars from the very government he would go on to lead.
Joining me now is Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst, and Richard Signorelli, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York.
And, Mr. Signorelli, I want to start with that, because the Trump lawyer is trying to downplay the importance of charges that are related to tax evasion on gifts and benefits. Is that accurate to say that those are not super significant, legally speaking?
RICHARD SIGNORELLI, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: First of all, I would take with a grain of salt any information from a defense attorney.
Second of all, tax evasion is very serious. And I have a feeling, in this case, we`re talking about many years of tax evasion involving fringe benefits, bonuses, probably totaling many millions of dollars. So, in and of itself, it`s very serious.
And it could result in significant penalties, financial and also incarceration. So, it is something be taken very, very seriously. I know Ron. I think he`s doing his best to play the media situation for his client. He was probably told to do that by his client. I`m disappointed he`s doing this.
But we will find out what the charges are tomorrow. And I have a feeling we should all expect the unexpected, to a certain extent.
REID: Yes.
And, Barbara, the fact that the grand jury is still going to be operating all the way through November, is that, in and of itself, an indication that there`s more to come? Because I think, when people see maybe Mr. Weisselberg, who apparently is not cooperating, maybe he`s going to get charged, there is still the question of, well, what about Trump? Is he may be on the line, or maybe the company itself, if they`re not indicted tomorrow?
BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I think it`s a very safe possibility that there could be more charges to come, Joy.
Very often, prosecutors will deliberately hold back some of the charges, so that they can use it as leverage to induce some cooperation from some of the defendants, whether that is additional charges against Allen Weisselberg, or charges against his son, or other people in the organization.
And so, of course, we can`t know what else may come, but I think there`s a very real possibility that this first indictment won`t be the last. You will often hear the term superseding indictment. And that`s because prosecutors continue to add charges as they continue to investigate cases.
REID: Yes.
And I ask that question, Richard, because there is this history that we now all have in the media covering Donald Trump for the last four years, where lots and lots and lots of his associates get charged with crimes. You have Michael Flynn, George Papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, Rick Gates, Roger Stone, Michael Cohen, Steve Bannon, and under scrutiny, obviously, Rudy Giuliani, Allen Weisselberg, Michael (sic) Calamari.
But Donald Trump, even when he is named sort of off the record or sort of in the indictment, not by name, as he was in Michael Cohen`s case, he seems to skate. It seems to be that everyone around him pays for the things that ultimately benefit him.
The Michael Cohen case feels like a really big example of that, right? Michael Cohen wasn`t paying money to this former exotic film star because he had sex with her. He was paying it because Trump did. And yet he gets away -- he gets incarcerated, he gets in trouble, he gets indicted. And the FEC then says, we don`t even care about this as an elections case.
Do you think that, at some point, prosecutors are going to stand up to Trump himself?
SIGNORELLI: I think they have to. He`s continuing to do damage to our democracy.
He has millions of people at his beck and call who believe every word he says. He is probably the biggest danger this country has to our democracy. The only way to deal with him is in a court of law by bringing criminal charges based on the facts and the evidence.
The Stormy Daniels situation really gets my goat, because Michael Cohen was convicted of that, served time in prison. And the mastermind of the Stormy Daniels payoff, the person who funded it, the person who benefited from it is right now getting off scot-free so far. He can still be charged. He should be charged. It`s still within the statute of limitations.
The public is losing confidence in the criminal justice system. The ringleader of a conspiracy like that -- and that was a serious conspiracy, because it could have affected the 2016 election and all the nightmare that followed that election, with Donald Trump, incompetent that he is, as our president.
And so this was a very serious crime. And why my old office is not pursuing it, I don`t understand it. They have got full cooperation. They have got a tape. They have got multiple witnesses, not just Michael Cohen. They have got documents. They have got a document trail. They got e-mails.
This was done in a very well-thought-out, planned way, and it should be prosecuted. Donald Trump should be indicted for that, along with many other things.
REID: And, Barbara, the last word to you, because the question is whether there is undue deference still being paid to Donald Trump because he was president.
I guess that`s what worries a lot of people, that people are willing to indict lower-level people, people who worked for him, but not him.
MCQUADE: Yes, I hope that -- I hope that`s not the case, Joy. We always say no one is above the law.
Certainly, when someone is in a position as president, there is that DOJ policy and some argument that the separation of powers would preclude a charge against the president.
But he`s not in office anymore. And so I would hope that any deference that was there before has now gone. I think one of the reasons we have seen is the way Michael Cohen described it, which is, Donald Trump has learned how to operate like a mob boss. He`s very careful to avoid saying things that can bring a case back to him. He uses innuendo and says, you know what I want to happen, without ever expressing it.
REID: Yes.
MCQUADE: I think that creates for prosecutors some challenges in proving that he had the requisite criminal intent.
But if prosecutors were willing to go so far as to identify Donald Trump as Individual 1 who cooperated and directed the Stormy Daniels matter, then I agree with Richard that it seems like they must have sufficient evidence to charge him. So I think more charges are possible.
REID: And Mr. Weisselberg and Mr. Calamari should note that Donald Trump will not go down for them, so they might want to consider whether they`re willing to go down for him and his family business.
Thank you, Barbara McQuade. Thank you, Richard Signorelli.
And still ahead: With charges expected tomorrow, prosecutors are finally going to blow away all of Trump`s smoke and smash all of his mirrors.
The reality behind Trump`s phony claims of being a successful by-the-book businessman -- next on THE REIDOUT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: By the time he ran for president in 2016, most of what people knew about Donald Trump came from "The Apprentice."
But the story he or, more accurately, Mark Burnett, presented of a self- made billionaire with a successful company that bore his name was really just a carefully crafted mirage.
In a series of damning reports, "The New York Times" exposed the broken, ugly truth that Trump`s wealth was mostly inherited, rather than earned, that Trump businesses are much bigger losers than winners. He couldn`t keep a casino open in Atlantic City, and that, ultimately, Trump was far more successful playing a business mogul than being one in real life.
And yet, for decades, Trump`s namesake company has been central to his self-image.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have built up one of the greatest companies, and I`m very proud of it, and there`s probably nothing like it.
The word Trump has become really very synonymous with quality.
I built something that`s recognized even today, in negative times, as being immense and potentially extremely valuable.
I built an unbelievable business, a great, great business, some of the greatest assets in the world.
I built a company that`s worth more than $10 billion, OK?
I built a great company, one of the best companies. I have some of the greatest assets in the world. I did a good job.
I ran, and everybody knew I was a rich person. I built a great company.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now is Barbara Res, former executive vice president of the Trump Organization and author of "Tower of Lies: What My Eighteen Years of Working With Donald Trump Reveals About Him."
Thank you for being here, Barbara.
And I want to start by asking you about that myth. We -- I know Tony Schwartz. He`s become a friend. He`s a -- he wrote "The Art of the Deal," co-wrote, but really wrote the whole thing. And he has talked often about how everything in that was pretty much a myth, it wasn`t real, that Trump was a non-successful businessman.
Oh, I think we might have lost Barbara Res.
OK, so we`re going to take a quick break. We will be right back. We`re going to get Barbara back.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: Joining me now is Barbara Res, former executive vice president of the Trump Organization, author of "Tower of Lies. What My 18 years of Working with Donald Trump Reveals About Him."
And, Barbara, I guess my first question is, you know, Tony Schwarz has revealed he did write or co-write "The Art of the Deal", he mainly wrote it, and talks about how all of the idea of Trump as a successful businessman was mostly mythological, it wasn`t real.
What was real? What was the business -- the business operation that you worked in, did it have substantial finances and to your knowledge, did it pay taxes?
BARBARA RES, FORMER TRUMP ORGANIZATION EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT (via telephone): Well, back when I was working there, the financial resources were Fred Trump is one thing and there were partners in both of the deals that I did initially when I was there, (INAUDIBLE) and the other was the Trump account (ph), and the financing came through them.
As far as the Trump Organization was concerned, it was a haphazard thing, as if it was thrown together. People did and didn`t know what they were supposed to do. Trump just divided people and took hem from getting together and he ran is it like an organizational chart with his name on the top line and everybody else underneath. That`s how it was run.
REID: Let me play you a sound bite of Donald Trump. This is him in 2016 actually bragging about avoiding taxes. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: This man and real estate developer I legally used the tax laws to my benefit. I have brilliantly used those laws.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Is it reasonable for you knowing and working for Donald Trump to believe he would have been unaware of what Mr. Weisselberg and Mr. Calamari were doing regarding the taxation payments of taxes?
RES: Absolutely not. Trump was aware of any major thing that went on in the company. Not hiring of people or paying bills and things like that but if you were talking about making decision about giving away valuable things, to employees or making a decision about reporting your value of your properties, one thing for taxing it and another thing to insurance, that didn`t just happen. Trump approved that.
REID: Yeah, what about this idea of giving fringe benefits? In your view, what was the purpose of handing out so many really expensive fringe benefits to the point where they would even need to be taxed?
RES: Well, for one thing, it kept salaries down, so he could say that he`s paying so much money but instead he`s giving away all these valuable things because you look at what they say, Weisselberg made and how he lives, there`s something wrong with that. But Trump wants to garner loyalty and when he gives you something, he thinks it`s going to make you more loyal to him.
For one thing he can take away, that`s especially true when he`s talking about employing your children.
REID: Yes.
RES: So, this is all for loyalty.
REID: And that really rings true in the interviewing Mary Trump, she talked about the family living almost for free in his properties but essentially being sort of rich poor where he wouldn`t give them any money. You can live here for free and can always take that away from you.
Do you believe knowing these people that Mr. Weisselberg or Mr. Calamari are willing to go to prison for Donald Trump?
RES: No, I know all of them. I know them pretty well, and I can`t imagine they`d go to prison. Calamari was asked, would you care for me, and he said, yes, Mr. Trump. But it`s nonsense.
These were normal people, at least they were when I knew them, not Paul Manaforts or Rick Cohen or Roger Stones, not Rick, sorry, Michael Cohen, they were regular people, and I know they`ve changed. Power corrupts and money corrupts, but I can`t --
REID: Sure.
RES: -- see them going to jail and I cannot see ever, ever, ever letting a child take the fall to this. That won`t happen.
REID: Well, we shall see.
Barbara Res, thank you very much. Really appreciate you being here this evening.
Meanwhile, Democrats and two Republicans, all the Democrats and two Republicans voted to create a select committee to investigate the January 6th attack on our Capitol while the vast majority of House Republicans, the 190 who voted to show up anyway, voted against it. I would like to know that they did this gleefully under the eyes of U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, metropolitan police officers Michael Fanone and Daniel Hodges, and Gladys Sicknick and Sandra Garza, the mother and partner of late Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick. Blue lives don`t matter to the crowd after all.
Today`s move cements the party`s fealty not to democracy but to sedition. Yesterday, 56 percent of House Republicans voted to affirm the 1860 sedition by refusing to remove statues of confederate traitors in the Capitol. In January, 69 percent of the caucus voted to support sedition by refusing to certify President Biden`s victory. And today, 90 percent of the Republicans banded together to vote against the select committee.
If you had any doubt of how willing the party is to wrap its arms around extremism, just take a look at the utter silence from GOP leadership on one of their members, Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar planning a fund-raiser with an open and proud white nationalist.
Joining me is congressman and former impeachment manager, Eric Swalwell, of California, author of "Endgame: Inside the Impeachment of Donald J. Trump", and Sandra Garza, long time partner of Officer Brian Sicknick.
And I do want to go you first. Normally I give deference to the congressman, so I hope you will forgive me. I`m going to go to Ms. Garza first.
Because you were there, how did it feel to watch only two Republicans vote to investigate the attack that took Brian Sicknick from you?
SANDRA GARZA, PARTNER OF OFFICER BRIAN SICKNICK: Joy, it was like a knife to my heart. It really was. It was a travesty.
And I think it really speaks to the fact that there are only two Republicans that have a backbone and that care about this country, democracy as a whole and all of law enforcement who bravely fought for them all that day.
It really, really upsets me and, of course, it`s a spit in the face to my Brian, which really, really upsets me.
REID: Is his mom okay, after having witnessed that today?
GARZA: She was very upset, too. I mean, it`s hard to listen to. It was hard listening to -- you know, we listened to some of the debate before the vote, and you know, to hear their excuses as to why they don`t want to support the vote, you know, it`s very upsetting.
But you know, we`re both survivors. We got through it and we`re going to continue to fight and speak up against this ridiculousness.
REID: You`re both clearly fighters, I definitely have seen that.
Representative Swalwell, so this -- so we are where we are. Only two Republicans voted to do the right thing here today. Should those be the two Republicans that Speaker Pelosi puts on the commission? Because I can`t imagine picking any others.
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): I`ll leave that to Speaker Pelosi. I certainly think they would be responsible members of the commission and maybe Kevin McCarthy should consider that.
Joy, today, I stood with Sandra and Ms. Sicknick in the gallery to watch the vote and it was hard, frankly, and Sandra will tell you that -- you know, look, I`ve been in Washington now for nine years. It`s easy to get jaded and to be pessimistic about Washington finding the courage to do the right thing.
But it really struck me to see metropolitan and Capitol Hill police officers and the Sicknick family look at the big board of members and as one of them remarked, why are there so many names in red?
Names in red because on the board, those are the names that are voting no, and again, I expected that. We knew that was going to happen. But to see everyday American heroes who defended the Capitol that day just look in shock and horror that people would be voting against investigating the biggest crime against democracy and the biggest crime against law enforcement, it really hurts and I saw the hurt and I don`t ever want to see that again.
REID: And just for people who are not familiar with the way the Capitol works, Congressman, are there Capitol police officers guarding the room when you guys vote?
SWALWELL: Yes, Joy, they guard the room. They guard the perimeter of the Capitol. They patrol the area around the Capitol. Members of Congress are among the safest people in the world because of the bravery of people like Officer Sicknick and the people who stood in the gallery today.
And to see Republican members either vote against it or even worse, Joy, go down to the border today for border theater so that they had a convenient alibi as to why they didn`t have to take a position on the select committee.
REID: Yeah.
SWALWELL: It was outrageous.
REID: And, Sandra, do you expect to see these officers showing up at Blue Lives Matter events? Because that`s what the playbook is, right? That they`ll then turn around and say that they support police. If one of these members who voted against this commission today shows up and says they support police, what will be your response?
SWALWELL: It was all --
(CROSSTALK)
SWALWELL: Go ahead, Sandra, yeah.
GARZA: Okay, okay. So, yeah, it`s phony. It`s a lie. It`s not true.
Supporting law enforcement would have been voting yes today. It would have been voting yes for the original 9/11-style commission. There really is no excuse for them to have voted no the first time.
Republicans pretty much got everything they asked for. I heard Speaker Pelosi today on the floor say that she negotiated with them, gave them pretty much everything that they had asked and still they voted no. So, you know, I mean, it`s terrible what they`re doing to law enforcement, particularly as Congressman Swalwell said.
Capitol Police, they are there everyday protecting them. It`s just horrific what they`re doing to them. It`s not right.
So, to say that they support law enforcement is a joke.
REID: Yeah. And, Congressman, I mean, it`s Metro Police as well, right, who had to come in and back up Capitol police, of people such as Officer Fanone who came in and tried to save them.
I want to ask you about the sort of dual screen that`s in my head of these Republicans refusing to support just investigating what happened in this horrifying attack on our Capitol, but also not saying anything about Mr. Gosar who sort of an old-fashion Confederate because he is palling around with white nationalists who don`t even hide the fact that they`re white nationalists.
We He interviewed his brother who called him a white supremacist.
What is happening on the other side of the aisle in the House?
SWALWELL: This is a party now that Kevin McCarthy leads that is pro- slavery. A majority of their members voted to keep the Confederate monuments at the Capitol. Instead of siding with the police, they`re rolling with the cop killers. Instead of standing up to end gun violence prevention -- instead of standing up to end gun violence with gun violence prevention, they are supporting mass shooters like the shooter over last summer who they are raising money for and holding up high. It`s really wildly out of touch with everyday Americans.
And what it reflects, as you pointed out, they have held themselves out as Blue Lives Matter members of Congress. But when the rubber meets the road, to honor Donald Trump, they have chosen to dishonor the police. They are dishonoring the military -- because General Milley is now sideways with the Trump crowd.
And as Sandra said, it makes you wonder, was it -- was their support just phony all along? And did they just use support for law enforcement and military as a political cudgel or to weaponize it against Democrats? But when the rubber meets the road, when they had to choose between Donald Trump and police and military, they showed their true colors and they weren`t blue.
REID: Yeah. Well, as the godsister of a retired police officer, I will say, thank you in departure to Brian Sicknick for doing the right thing and showing what great police officers look like. That is what we want. That is what we support.
Always a pleasure and always an honor to talk with you, Sandra. Always great to talk with you, Congressman Eric Swalwell. Thank you both.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
REID: Welcome back.
Normally, this is where we would do our "Absolute Worst", but of course, this is the kind of news they were having. We now have breaking news.
"The Washington Post" reported a grand jury in Manhattan filed criminal indictments Wednesday against former President Donald Trump`s company and its chief financial officer, according to two people familiar with the indictments.
I believe we now have David Fahrenthold on the line, that is -- and let me see if we got him. David, do we have you?
DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, THE WASHINGTON POST (via telephone): I`m here.
REID: OK. Give us the details. What`s going on?
FAHRENTHOLD: Well, the indictments we have been waiting for all this week have now been filed. The grand jury voted. We won`t see the indictment until tomorrow. We know they are in the system.
So, Allen Weisselberg, the Trump Organization`s longtime CFO has been criminally charged as a result of the investigation. Trump Org -- Trump Organization has been charged also.
We believe -- we believe they have something to do with taxes. The Trump Organization allegedly didn`t pay proper taxes on benefits given to corporate executives.
REID: And is there a sense the grand jury is completing its work or that this is just one part of a grand jury situation? We know they are allowed to be empanelled through November.
FAHRENTHOLD: What we understand, this is not the end. It`s the beginning. What we understand is these are -- the grand jury -- the investigations have looked at a wide range of transactions the Trump organization is involved in. We don`t at this point have any sign that they are done.
Obviously, Allen Weisselberg would be a very important witness against Donald Trump. Prosecutors think he would be. And so, they may be filing against him first in the hopes he will feel the pressure and become a witness against his boss.
REID: And we are understand now, Weisselberg is poised to turn himself in. When can we expect that to happen?
FAHRENTHOLD: It should happen tomorrow morning, possibly early, at the Manhattan criminal courthouse. I don`t believe he will be arraigned until maybe the early afternoon, after lunch. He will probably turn himself in early in the morning.
REID: And based on your reporting on Donald Trump`s assets and the way his company operated over the years, what does it tell you the company is also being indicted?
FAHRENTHOLD: Well, it certainly means they believe -- prosecutors believe they have evidence of something beyond one bad executive enriching himself or breaking the law. They believe they found a pattern. It`s not just Weisselberg. It`s the company acting this way.
Then they also allowed them to seek charges against Weisselberg for falsifying documents, or something else, if they are charging he is covering up what the Trump Organization did. But certainly, the inclusion of the Trump organization as a corporate defendant to me signals they think there`s a pattern here.
REID: All right. Well, David Fahrenthold, the best reporter on this issue, thank you very much for being here.
That`s tonight`s REIDOUT.
"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.