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Transcript: The ReidOut, 6/24/21

Guests: Josh Shapiro, Joaquin Castro, Chrissy Houlahan, Tim Miller

Summary

New York suspends Rudy Giuliani`s law license. Giuliani vows to fight back after court ruling. Court suspends Giuliani law license over election lies. The GOP`s anti-woke crusade has now reached the Pentagon, with Matt Gaetz, the Florida congressman, currently being investigated for having sex with and trafficking a minor, quizzing Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin about critical race theory.

Transcript

JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: Trymaine Lee, thank you so much for your time. Definitely listen to the Into America podcast. And you can hear more from Trymaine and his excellent reporting on his new Podcast Into American. The latest episode is Black and Blue and look at whether policing can be change from the inside. Listen now, wherever you get your Podcast.

That does it for me tonight. THE REIDOUT with Joy Reid is up next. Joy?

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: How are you doing, Jason. Okay, Jason, one more -- one more phrase for you, the harder they fall. So here for it, we can talk about it later on, on Twitter. The harder they fall.

JOHNSON: Most definitely.

REID: We leave it right there. Thank you very much. Have a great evening.

All right, good evening everyone. We have a lot to get to tonight, including a major development from Capitol Hill.

Okay, remember how Republicans blocked the formation of an independent commission to probe the January 6th insurrection? Well, today, Speaker Pelosi showed she is still the boss, announcing a select committee to investigate the insurrection. It means Democrats will have subpoena power and as much time as they need to look into the attack. We`ll have much more on that coming up.

But we begin THE REIDOUT with bad news for Rudy. Thanks to the legal work that he did for Trump, who ultimately stiffed him on his legal bills, the former mayor and one-time SDNY prosecutor, Giuliani is now banned from practicing law and faces permanent disbarment.

A New York State appellate court today suspended his law license over the election lies he spewed following the November election. In a 33-page decision, the panel of judges wrote, quote, we conclude that there is uncontroverted evidence that Giuliani communicated demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for the former president. In other words, a court of law literally ruled that Rudy Giuliani is a liar. In fact, he was deemed such a prolific liar that he was considered an immediate threat to the public interest.

And as you might imagine, he didn`t take it well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: How can they say I lied? They haven`t had a hearing. I`ve been a lawyer for 50 years, and never had a complaint. Somebody has got to fix this double standard justice system, which is not America anymore. I mean, I might as well be in Iran or East Germany. But if they think I`m going to violate the law after having almost been killed by the mafia before, the Islamic terrorists, they`re out of their minds.

REPORTER: What do you do now having lost your license?

GIULIANI: I fight back, that`s what I do. What they did should be a problem for them. They should be being investigated. That`s not American. That`s what they do in dictatorships.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Okay, that`s cute coming from the guy who used bogus allegations to try and overturn a Democratic election. In the months after November 3rd, we saw Giuliani lead what can only be called a fantasy fraud tour, embracing and repeating the most outlandish conspiracy theories to push the big lie.

Of course, there were plenty of signs that Giuliani`s his quest was doomed to be for and even got off the ground. Like the fact that he launched his effort from the dusty parking lot of the Four Seasons Total Landscaping Company in Philadelphia, a venue his team apparently confused with the five-star hotel chain. Then there was Rudy`s literal meltdown at the RNC. Trump`s legal team was supposed to release the kraken, but Rudy`s runny hair dye stole the show.

In suspending his law license, the court cited multiple falsehoods that Giuliani spewed in that effort. And here`s just a sample of Rudy`s lies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI (voice-over): The real question is how many illegals voted, because every one of those illegal votes has to be taken out? The bare minimum is 40,000 or 50,000. The reality is about 250,000.

I guess the crooks in Philadelphia are disappointed in this. They only submitted 8,021 ballots from dead people.

Joe Frazier voted in the 2018 election five years after he was dead.

In Pennsylvania, there are 600,000 more mail-in ballots that came in than were sent out.

I don`t know what accounts for that 700,000 difference. And I can`t imagine you could possibly certify it without knowing the explanation to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Surprise! All of that was false. As the court made clear, Giuliani failed to provide a scintilla of evidence for the varying and wildly inconsistent numbers of dead people that he alleged had voted. Likewise on his allegations of undocumented immigrants voting, the court said, quote, these numerical claims are so wildly divergent and irreconcilable, that they all cannot be true at the same time.

The court also pointed out that while Giuliani`s claims ultimately failed on the merits, they fueled the violence of January 6th, the worst attack on the U.S. Capitol in more than 200 years.

Joining me now is Glen Kirschner, former federal prosecutor and MSNBC Columnist. And, Glenn, I just want just for a moment take stock of where Rudy is at this moment. Let`s just go to the list. He cannot practice law. He is facing disbarment. Trump never even paid him his legal fees, so he didn`t get the money and he`s under criminal investigations for his dealings with Ukraine, where he was trying to dig up dirt on Joe Biden and his son. Your thoughts on Rudy`s status in the world right now?

GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC COLUMNIST: You know, Joy, I just watched your lead- in with the clips of Rudy saying that he`s going to fight back, he apparently is incapable of experiencing shame. Because when you read this 33-page court order, it -- you know, if it were me as a lawyer, I would crawl under a rock, and you would never hear from me again.

You know, people, I think, should take the time to read it because what they do is they set out all of the evidence supporting their conclusions that Rudy lied. He lied about voting in Pennsylvania, he lied about voting in Georgia, he lied about absentee voting, he lied about underage voting, he lied about convicted felons voting. And the court is careful to say he lied at press conferences, he lied at state legislative hearings, he lied on radio broadcasts. The court notes as both host and guest, he lied on podcasts, T.V. appearances and he lied in court.

And if people really are willing to listen to anything else Rudy Giuliani has to say about the presidential election or anything else, well, then they are unwilling to accept the truth.

REID: Yes. And, you know, it`s hard to feel sorry for him. Personally, as somebody who lived in New York in Giuliani time era, it`s hard to have any empathy for a guy who sicked the police on black citizens of New York, tried to make money off of the moment that he did one good thing on 9/11, sort of managed things, and profited, and then turned to doing this. But it`s wild that he did all this for someone who didn`t even seem to respect him.

Let me read for you, The Daily Mail had this report, there`s a new book that talks about Giuliani`s relationship with Trump. Michael Bendor did this book. This is a quote. Donald Trump enjoyed tormenting Rudy Giuliani, mocking him for falling asleep in meetings and calling him pathetic after the former mayor`s television appearances. Rudy, you suck, Trump told him after one T.V. hit. You are weak. And get Giuliani rarely complained and instead seemed to crave the attention.

So this guy was getting abused by the former president, not paid by the former president, and yet lied and threw his law license away for it. What do you make of that kind of behavior?

KIRSCHNER: You know, birds of a corrupt feather flock together. And whether it`s Donald Trump mocking Ted Cruz or his family or, you know, making fun of Lindsey Graham and these, I`m sorry, very weak men continuing to follow him, you know, like they`re a wounded puppy, I don`t understand it. I guess they feel the power of his orbit and they want to kind of stay in his good graces so they can keep a little bit of that power for themselves.

But, you know, I saw in your lead-in, you also had the clip where, I mean, Rudy Giuliani alleges of all people that Smokin` Joe Frazier, the former heavyweight champ, even voted. And, you know what, it sounds funny and sounds like a throwaway line. But the New York court went so far as to get the documentation from the state of Pennsylvania that Joe Frazier was taken off the voter rolls in February of 2012, three years after the champ died.

Now, you know, so all of these lies are easy to tell but it takes a whole system of determined and dedicated people to uncover them and to hold the Rudy Giulianis of the world accountable. And, you know, the court wraps up by saying, these kind of lies are exactly what led to a violent, deadly --

REID: That`s right.

KIRSCHNER: -- insurrection and undermines confidence in our free and fair elections. This is not fun and games.

REID: Yes. And if those other lawyers that participated in this are paying attention to this, look sharp because you could be next. Glenn Kirschner, always great to talk to you, thank you very much.

And in a letter last month, the governor, general counsel and attorney general of Pennsylvania urged the appellate court in New York to discipline Giuliani for his reckless conduct. Among other things, they said that Giuliani abusive misused of the court had serious consequences. Pennsylvania election workers have received death threats from individuals convinced of the truth of Mr. Giuliani`s lies.

And with me now is Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro. You know, and thank you for being here Attorney Shapiro, because it is easy to laugh at and mock Giuliani for being mocked by Trump and yet lying for him and losing his law license, but I think what the judge said is the key and it`s the point you`ve made as well. This resulted in actual death threats to real people, to real people who worked in elections. Talk a little bit about that.

JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA), ATTORNEY GENERAL: It did. It not only resulted in actual death threats to great public servants here in Pennsylvania, but as I`ve been saying now for months, it led directly to the violent insurrection on our Capitol on January 6th.

And, in fact, this panel who suspended his law license today made that point, that by abusing our courts and feeding them the big lie, presumably on behalf of Donald Trump, it stoked the fire and led to January 6th. This is very, very serious, as you correctly state.

Now, there`s some good that came out of the news today, right? Number one, it shows there is accountability in our system. And number two, like I`ve been saying all along, do not mess with Pennsylvania so long as I`m the attorney general.

REID: Yes. And is it -- a ruling like this and the way that the judge laid it out, I mean, could Giuliani be liable legally in the state of Pennsylvania for any harm that came to people, you know, real genuine harm that came to people or threats that people endured?

SHAPIRO: Well, we`ll see. I have made clear that I`m going to hold all the lawyers accountable who have engaged in the big lie, Rudy Giuliani and others. And we`re going to hold them accountable to the fullest extent that we can.

The reason why we reached out to this disciplinary board in New York is because that`s where he is barred. That`s where he at least was licensed. And we thought that that was the appropriate venue to lay it out. And what your prior guest said and what you said in your run-up is correct, and that is they looked at all the lies, and not just the lies at Four Seasons Total Landscaping but the lies in court.

Look, Joy, we take an oath to the court to speak truth. Rudy Giuliani did not do that and today was the first step toward accountability for him and there will be accountability for the other lawyers as well.

REID: And, you know, it`s not just lawyers because you`ve also got media people who are participating in pushing the big lie and really not even low key calling for a violent retribution for Donald Trump not being president anymore.

Can I play something real quick? This is a guy from OAN, I even don`t know his name. He`s one of the American news personalities. His name is Pearson Sharp. I`m not even going to play it for you. I`m just going to tell you what it says. I don`t want to play it.

SHAPIRO: I`ll speak to him.

REID: Yes, he`s calling for the mass executions of thousands of Americans based on his belief and this claim, this false claim that widespread voter fraud amounted to, quote, a coup against the former president. And this is what he said. He said, in the past, America has had a very good solution for dealing with such traitors, execution. That feels like similarly putting people in your state and in every state that has OAN in danger.

SHAPIRO: The Constitution in this country doesn`t allow you to incite violence. Obviously, I didn`t see that person say that, but there needs to be accountability for the lawyers, for the media, for others who are engaged in this big lie. This is not a joke.

And, by the way, these people can`t just be dismissed as fringe actors. These are the modern Republican Party leaders. These are the people running statewide in these swing states. These are the people running state legislatures. These are the people trying to disenfranchise black and brown voters, voters with disabilities. These are the people who are now running the Republican Party and doing it seemingly on behalf of Donald Trump. There needs to be truth-telling and there needs to be accountability. And what we saw today with this decision on Giuliani is an example of the kind of accountability that we need to continue to pursue in this country in order to protect our democracy.

REID: Are you worried about violence related to the 2022 elections in your state?

SHAPIRO: I`m always worried about violence when leaders either directly try to incite violence like the quote that you just had before and like the kinds of things that Giuliani and Trump and others said all along. I`m also worried when they allow their words to be misappropriated by the Proud Boys and by white supremacists and by others who every single day are threatening and bringing about real violence in our communities.

Look, I`m the chief law enforcement officer at the (INAUDIBLE) of Pennsylvania. I see the intel that comes in. After these so-called leaders say these things, there`s a spike in the hate speech. There`s a spike in hate incidents. There`s a rise in that type of activity in our communities. We all need to be vigilant about it.

And here`s the thing. If they`re attacking someone because of the color of their skin or because of their faith or because of their gender, it makes us all less safe. It makes our entire country less safe and it breeds violence. And we need to work together to stop that.

REID: Attorney Josh Shapiro, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

Okay, and up next, Republicans fail in their desperate attempt to avoid an investigation of the January 6th insurrection.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We had a really good meeting. The answer to that question, we have a deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: President Biden gets his infrastructure bill kind of, well, that`s good, but did he give away too much to get there?

Plus, why conservatives like Laura Ingraham and Matt Gaetz now think it`s safe to mock and ridicule and even defund the military.

And you may not think the court taking away a rich celebrity`s freedom has much to do with you, but think again. I`ll explain in tonight`s absolute worst.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This morning with great solemnity and sadness, I`m announcing that the House will be establishing a select committee on the January 6th insurrection.

We yielded on every point. We yielded on makeup of the committee, we yielded on the timing of the committee, we yielded on the process of the committee. I just would not yield on the scope. They wanted to make it about Black Lives Matter. That wasn`t what happened on January 6th. So I`m not going to yield on the scope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Speaker Nancy Pelosi, everybody, speaking the truth and doing what Republicans in both chambers have refused to do, which is to investigate the January 6 insurrection.

If past select committees serve as a guide, Republicans will have forfeited their ability to dictate who is subpoenaed before the committee, given their minority status. That could put certain House members in very uncomfortable positions, given their alleged interactions with some of the organizers of the attack on our Capitol.

Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland said the Justice Department has now arrested 500 people on charges related to the January 6 insurrection.

Yesterday, a D.C. federal judge issued the very first sentence for one of those insurrectionists. Anna Morgan-Lloyd pleaded guilty to a single charge of illegally demonstrating in the Capitol and was sentenced to three years` probation.

While the punishment was surprisingly light, in issuing it, Judge Royce Lamberth called the insurrection a disgrace and slammed Republican lawmakers who sought to whitewash it.

While he never explicitly named any members individually, the judge clearly alluded to Georgia Congressman Andrew Clyde when he said -- quote -- "The attempt of some congressmen to rewrite history that these were tourists walking through the Capitol is utter nonsense," adding: "This wasn`t a peaceful demonstration. It wasn`t an accident that it turned violent."

And joining me now for the latest on what happened today, Scott MacFarlane, NBC4 Washington investigative reporter.

Tell us everything you know, Scott, please.

(LAUGHTER)

SCOTT MACFARLANE, NBC4 WASHINGTON INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Hey, Joy. Good evening. Great to be here.

Let`s start off with the milestone we hit, our 500th the rest of the U.S. capitol insurrection. But let`s be clear. We`re still in close range to the starting line, for a couple of reasons.

The FBI director has said there are hundreds more investigations ongoing beyond the cases we know about. What`s more, according to my tally, we`re at between 1 and 2 percent of the cases that have reached plea agreements. So we`re near the start.

And, even today, some of the first defendants, like that man who faced off against the solitary Capitol Police officer outside the Senate chamber, the man with his feet on Nancy Pelosi`s office desk, they`re still litigating whether to be held in jail pretrial or motions in their cases. A long way to go in those.

But what we know so far in the first sentencing is a bad sign, even though it`s a small sample size, a bad sign for defendants. One of the lowest level defendants, Anna Morgan-Lloyd of Indiana, accused of no property damage, no violence that day, she got up in court yesterday and apologize to the American people. She`s a 49-year-old grandmother from Indiana.

She got in her sentence exactly what prosecutors wanted, exactly what they requested, three years` probation. She wanted just hours of community service.

Also, we know from the first major plea agreement yesterday, a charge of conspiracy, a plea agreement to the conspiracy charge from Graydon Young, an Oath Keeper from Florida. He`s agreed to participate in the investigation, Joy. He`s going to flip. He`s going to talk.

This was a bad week for the other defendants we know about, though there`s so much more road to travel in this case.

REID: Yes, absolutely.

Thank you so much, Scott MacFarlane, with all that great reporting in that quiet storm voice. We always love having you on. Thank you very much.

With me now is Congressman Joaquin Castro of Texas. He was an impeachment manager in the second Trump impeachment.

So, you just heard Scott, Congressman. And it -- with all that we`re learning about how severe the attack was, with all the new video that is slowly, but surely coming out, on how violent this was, and the fact that people are going to start pleading, and how serious things were, are you surprised that Republicans would prefer to have a select committee, the kind of thing that was used with Watergate or Benghazi, with the fake Benghazi scandal, which can go on past December, which could go on into January 2020 -- into 2022, an election year, and in which they would have no subpoena power?

Are you surprised? Do you think they just made a political mistake?

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): Well, I guess, on the one hand, I am surprised that they didn`t accept a bipartisan agreement to create a commission of citizens to look into this, all of us, as concerned Americans, trying to figure out what happened, and, just as importantly, also try to figure out how we make sure it doesn`t happen again.

But I think that they`re going to just call this committee, the select committee, a partisan operation and attack it, even though the speaker in her announcement made clear that this is a very solemn thing for us to undertake.

And I believe that the folks on that committee are going to do their job, without trying to place blame on people that aren`t responsible. They`re not going to go out of their way to be hyperpartisan.

But the fact is, you had an attempted coup at the United States Capitol on January 6, and we have to get to the bottom of who exactly was involved, whether it included other members of Congress or anybody in the executive branch, and then the second piece of that, figure out how you make sure that it doesn`t happen again.

REID: And it`s going to be very difficult to call this a partisan sort of hit job the day that Michael Fanone is called.

Presumably, he`d be somebody you would call. The day that other Capitol Police officers who went through that attack and that they testify, I mean, the nation will be riveted to that. If Brian Sicknick`s mom is allowed to be called, that -- I mean, you did an impeachment trial. You know how this goes.

Is this going to be an opportunity for the country to really learn the story in a narrative fashion, the way that we were able to with impeachment?

CASTRO: Yes, this will be another opportunity for the country to learn the truth, and also to learn about the lives of the people that were directly affected by this.

And, interestingly, as I have read some of the stories of the folks that were involved, many of them were actually conservative people themselves.

REID: Yes.

CASTRO: They were conservative Republicans.

And so this was something that hit people who were all over the political spectrum. But the country has not really had a chance -- in the kind of setting that you will see through a committee hearing, where you can go for hours and hours, the country has not had a chance to really hear the stories of people and their lives and how they were affected, and also talk about who was responsible in a more comprehensive way.

We have heard leads and trails here and there about members of Congress that may have had communication with the different folks who were planning it, people in the executive branch, the same thing.

Well, this will be an opportunity for Congress to subpoena people, if they have to, and get to the bottom of that on behalf of the American people.

REID: Which is why I think Watergate is a better sort of analogy to what we`re seeing here.

Let`s talk about one of the people who may have been involved. Kevin McCarthy had a conversation with the former president, with Donald Trump, on the day of the insurrection, apparently begging him to call off his people. He`s then gone dark and decided that he loves Donald Trump too much to talk about this.

How do you expect him to respond if he`s subpoenaed?

CASTRO: That`s a great question.

And I think that Kevin McCarthy, at this point, is in denial of reality. And, unfortunately, the ticket of admission for the Republican Party and success in the Republican primary right now is to deny reality, deny that Donald Trump had any responsibility for this, and, as you know, some folks calling it what looked like a day of tourism at the Capitol.

And so it`ll be really interesting how Kevin McCarthy responds, but I know what he should do. He should cooperate. And he should work in the best interests of the American people in getting to the truth.

REID: Yes. If he fights it or takes the Fifth, that`s going to be a very, very bad look.

Congressman Joaquin Castro, thank you very much for being here. Really appreciate it.

And still head: the politics of the infrastructure deal. The word bipartisanship is on everybody`s lips today, But what does this deal really tell us about the chances for the Biden agenda in Congress?

And the toxic nature of tonight`s absolute worst will have you slipping under. You see what I did there?

THE REIDOUT continues after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Today, President Biden and a group of senators, five Democrats and five Republicans, announced a $1.2 trillion infrastructure deal.

And it was sort of a startling scene, a very chummy group of senators, all white, with the president, a former senator, looking all comfy-cozy, as if there`s, like, literally no threat to our democracy, and as if those five Republicans hadn`t just voted to deny people of color the right to vote.

They acted like everything was just totally normal, because bipartisanship.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): I`m speaking to the diversity of what we know and understand in this country, the diversity of needs, the diversity of interests, and, thus, why it`s so important to come together not only across parties, but really to come together for projects that benefit the entire country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Yes, diversity.

If democracy wasn`t being torched by Republicans, I guess you could be excited. But for those of us who are worried about our democracy, the whole scene, honestly, was a bit unnerving.

Some Democrats are less than thrilled with this deal. Even before the announcement, they balked at the limited size and scope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Way too small, paltry, pathetic. It has to be combined with a second, much more robust, adequate package to be deserving of a vote.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): We have to have the whole thing, not just -- not just cleave off a little piece of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: President Biden acknowledge the passing some of his plans, like expanding childcare and education, would have to come through a budget reconciliation process.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi held the line, meanwhile, saying that she won`t even take up either piece of legislation until they both pass the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We will not take up a bill in the House until the Senate passes the bipartisan bill and an interest -- and a reconciliation bill. There ain`t going to be an infrastructure bill unless we have the reconciliation bill passed by the United States Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: She said there ain`t.

Biden said that he agreed with Speaker Pelosi`s plan and issued a warning of his own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: But if only one comes to me, I`m not -- if this is the only thing that comes to me, I`m not signing it. It`s in tandem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Joining me now, my weekend obsessions, Tiffany Cross, host of MSNBC`s "THE CROSS CONNECTION," and Jonathan Capehart, host of MSNBC`s "THE SUNDAY SHOW."

You are now looking at pretty much what I do with my weekend mornings, is watch these two.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Thank you both for being here. Always great to see you.

OK, Ms. Tiffany, my third on-set guest...

TIFFANY CROSS, HOST, "THE CROSS CONNECTION": I`m so excited. I can look -- I can touch you.

REID: Listen -- I know. That`s...

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

REID: Hot vac summer.

CROSS: Hot vac summer.

REID: So, listen, I...

CROSS: Yes.

REID: Listen, I guess I want to be positive.

CROSS: I know.

REID: It`s hard, though.

CROSS: I know.

REID: A, the talk about diversity by Lisa Murkowski.

CROSS: Yes.

REID: This is what AOC had to say about that.

She said: "The diversity of the bipartisan coalition pretty perfectly conveys which communities get centered and which get left behind when leaders prioritize bipartisan deal-making over inclusive lawmaking which prioritizes delivering the most impact possible for the most people."

CROSS: Yes.

REID: She spoke for me.

CROSS: She -- and she`s right.

Look, this is why we don`t necessarily belong to a political party. We belong to a party of black people, the party of people of color, the party of people of the rising majority. And when you look at what was left out of infrastructure, affordable housing was left out. They weren`t able to roll back the Donald Trump tax cuts.

But, look, I know politics is sometimes about telling a story, and people like a winner. So they dropped -- or failed on voting rights.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: And so I think they have to present this infrastructure bill like, hey, we won.

But not necessarily, when you look at the communities who are left out. So it`s really disappointing. And I hope it sends a message that you`re trying to negotiate with terrorists. You`re trying to negotiate with people who are still beholden to their MAGA leader, the MAGA king, and they`re not going to negotiate in good faith.

They would rather win favor with Donald Trump than protect the American people. And it was -- it`s a disappointing deal, to be honest.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: But I get their effort in trying to tell a good story.

And, look, before Twitter goes crazy and says, well, we could have had Trump in office, I get all that. But I can`t be satisfied with crumbs, when I see people eat a full, extravagant meal across the table from me.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: So, hopefully, they can do better.

REID: And this is my challenge, Jonathan. And you know this process. You have been a D.C. guy, and you get it.

And I -- the challenge I have is that this sent me back to sort of like the pre-1960 Senate, even though there were some women there, where, of course, you can make deals when you all have the same basic interests. And nobody there is threatened by the loss of their voting rights.

So, of course, they could get together. They could look past the fact that those very same Republicans don`t want any of the three of us to have equal access to the ballot. They can get over that and do a deal with them.

I have trouble doing almost any deal with Republicans until they embrace democracy. Am I being too negative?

(LAUGHTER)

JONATHAN CAPEHART, HOST, "THE SUNDAY SHOW": Well, you -- I understand where the negativity comes from.

But you got to look at it from President Biden and Vice President Harris` point of view, and that is this. Yes, they -- those Republicans said no to voting rights, yet we were elected by the American people to govern. We have got to do something.

And so, when you -- you`re trying to get an infrastructure bill, which will help people, you hold the nose, and you try to get it done.

What I find very interesting about this whole thing is that, first, Speaker Pelosi comes out -- and I`m glad you played that clip, because my neck whipped back when she said, there ain`t going to be no...

REID: Hers did too. Her neck whipped side to side.

(LAUGHTER)

CAPEHART: She was like this: There ain`t going to be no vote in the House until the Senate does its thing.

And what she`s doing is, she`s protecting her at-risk members, because she doesn`t want them to take a hard vote if the Senate is not going to take hard votes themselves. So, that`s hurdle number one -- or, actually, hurdle number one.

Hurdle number one is the reconciliation vote. I understand the upset over the -- like, the super Democratic priorities that didn`t make it into the compromise bill. That`s why they keep talking about reconciliation.

That -- all that stuff is going in the much-easier-to-pass reconciliation - - much-easier-to-pass simple majority -- simple majority vote, which is why the president said, I`m not signing the bipartisan deal unless you also send me the reconciliation deal, which is why Speaker Pelosi says, I`m not taking a vote on that bipartisan deal unless you also send over the reconciliation deal passed by the Senate.

So, I understand the negativity. I just wouldn`t be -- I just wouldn`t be mad and angry at the president and the administration for trying to do what they`re trying to do.

REID: Oh, I`m not mad. Yes.

CAPEHART: Being mindful -- being mindful that this -- we`re probably looking at the Hindenburg going down anyway.

(LAUGHTER)

REID: Right.

CAPEHART: But, remember, they were elected to try to do these things.

REID: Yes.

CAPEHART: And they`re trying.

REID: Well, I -- yes.

CAPEHART: And I think they`re doing it smartly.

REID: Well, when Kyrsten Sinema acts like Lucy and pulls the football and be like, I`m not voting for the reconciliation bill, surprise.

CROSS: Right.

REID: OK, let`s do one other thing.

You have got the sentencing coming for Derek Chauvin. He`s going to be sentenced on Friday. I know you have been covering this story a lot on "THE CROSS CONNECTION."

CROSS: Yes.

REID: What does that -- what are you expecting to happen?

CROSS: You know...

REID: He`s asking basically to go home, time served.

CROSS: Right, which, the audacity, the temerity, right?

REID: Yes.

CROSS: But not very surprising.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: Look, I think we saw, on trial, everybody expressed remorse for their Derek Chauvin`s death, except -- or -- I`m sorry -- for George Floyd`s death, except for Derek Chauvin.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: So, I think this is their blood sacrifice. This is the system`s way of saying, no, look, we`re sending this guy to jail for a long time, so never mind all these other incidents of police brutality and all these other home camera videos of people being Tased and beaten and black bodies being devastated and destroyed.

So, I anticipate that he will get a lengthy sentence. When you look at Minnesota law and what it entails around sentencing, I think that he might see the maximum.

REID: Yes.

CROSS: The judge who presided over the trial is also presiding over the sentencing.

REID: Right.

CROSS: And I think, you know, he has a lot of outside pressure to give this guy a good sentence. But, you know, it`s still -- so what, you know? So what?

It`s still not justice if this guy goes to jail and it`s still a system that does not value black lives. So I think that`s the larger discussion. It`s easier to send this guy to jail than it is to have a real conversation around the system and how it disrespects our bodies on almost a daily basis.

REID: Absolutely.

One other thing I have to get with you, Jonathan Capehart. You have a great special coming up this weekend for pride month. I`m excited about it. One of my goody friends, Ms. Karine is in it. Talk about your special coming up.

JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC HOST, "THE SUNDAY SHOW": Yeah. So, on Sunday, it`s called pride of the White House. It is a look at some of the LGBTQ -- out LGBTQ members of the Biden administration. Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, you have Principal Deputy White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, deputy White House communications director, Pili Tobar, you have the out spokesperson for the state department, Ned Price, and you also have the senior White House advisor for LGBTQ plus engagement, Reggie Greer.

And this really wonderful thing happens at the end. We did -- Reggie comes on to present a Zoom wall of 50 more LGBTQ members of the administration.

REID: Wow, wow.

CAPEHART: Sort of putting in face the president`s mantra of having an administration that looks like America. And so that`s Sunday.

REID: We`ll be there watching it. I don`t miss anything that you guys do.

CROSS: Congrats, Jonathan. I love it.

REID: We`ll all be watching. Tiffany Cross, Jonathan Capehart, this is your weekends, people. Here it is, they`re beautiful, wonderful.

All right. Thank you guys very much.

If all the conservative -- I mean, I`m sorry, if the new conservative rallying cry of defund the military seems a bit out of place, the so-called reasoning behind it will not, but that doesn`t make it any less infuriating.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: The GOP`s anti-woke crusade has now reached the Pentagon, with Matt Gaetz, the Florida congressman, currently being investigated for having sex with and trafficking a minor, quizzing Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin about critical race theory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We do not teach critical race theory. We don`t embrace critical race theory. And I think that`s a spurious conversation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Gaetz` questioning led to this viral moment by General Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I want to understand white rage and I`m white. I want to understand it. So what is it that caused thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the Constitution of the United States of America? What caused that? I want to find that out.

I`ve read Mao Zedong, I`ve read Karl Marx, I`ve read Lenin. That doesn`t make me a communist.

I personally find it offensive that we are accusing the United States military, our general officers, our noncommissioned officers are being, quote, woke or something else because we`re studying some theories that are out there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

REID: Conservative media is pouncing on these words to justify the new rallying cry of, defund the military. Exactly what you expect from a network that fawned over a leader who reportedly called the war dead losers and suckers.

But it isn`t just conservative media putting a muzzle on anti-racist teachings without our institutions. Per "Politico", the group Heritage Action is trying to shoe horn this language into must-pass legislation such as the annual defense spending bill.

Joining me now is Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan of Pennsylvania, who is an Air Force veteran, and Tim Miller, writer at large for "The Bulwark".

And, Representative Houlahan, I want to start with you on this both as a veteran and somebody who is serving in the United States Congress. The new reporting in "Politico" is that Steve Bannon is back and his plan here is to turn this fake, made-up version of critical race theory, which is really just anti-racism, they hate anti-racism. So, he wants to turn that into their new Tea Party. He said this isn`t Q. It`s not mainstream suburban moms, that a lot of people are Trump voters. He thinks it`s good politics.

But also this news that Heritage Action is saying they want to now try to place this language about this made-up stuff into must-pass bills and defund the military.

What do you make of this now push to defund the military?

REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): I never thought that I would be standing in front of you today thinking that the Republican Party as we`ve known it historically would ever say something like we need to defund the military. In fact yesterday and today we have started to hear that. And it is, I think, a very strategic strategy inserting critical race theory and scaring people frankly.

And I think we`re at this place where I`ve never seen anything like it where the Democratic Party is appropriately -- we are speaking to making sure that people are protected and defended, and the Republican Party is seeming to be punitive and trying to withhold funding for protecting and defending over conversations about making sure that we have an educated fighting force, an educated warrior force.

REID: Yeah.

And, you know, Tim, you`ve been a Republican a long time. I mean, we are now at the point where you have people like Matt Gaetz making fun of and mocking the military, saying this is the reason that we don`t win any more wars with generals like this, talking about Mark Milley who has put his body on the line for this country and also saying, and then deleting that we should defund the FBI.

You have Madison Cawthorn mocking the people who died and fought in Vietnam, a war that Republicans used to defending, saying, yeah, you can topple the U.S. government, just ask the Viet Cong. So, I guess he`s team Viet Cong now.

I mean, that -- and you combine that with Donald Trump calling our military losers and suckers and apparently per this new reporting on CNN, telling the General Milley himself, the same good man, pushed back on Trump`s argument that military should intervene violently to quell protesters last year.

Quote, just shoot them, Trump said on multiple occasions inside the Oval Office, according to excerpts from Michael Bender`s book. When Milley and then Attorney General William Barr would push back, Trump toned it down but only slightly, well, shoot them in the leg or maybe on the foot but be hard on them.

That`s the new respect for the military, in the Republican Party?

TIM MILLER, THE BULWARK WRITER-AT-LARGE: Look, Joy, you have got these congressmen, these frat boys, Matt Gaetz and Madison Cawthorn, trying to lecture General Milley about what our military needs, as far as readiness is concerned, when their only-military experience is a frat-house "Call of Duty" tournament that they were involved in.

It`s all just -- it`s preposterous. I think it`s really important -- just these guys are trolls. These guys are nihilists, so is Laura Ingraham. Let`s just try to acknowledge that.

This is completely devoid and detached from any serious policy discussion, any serious effort to care about our military or country`s safety. And so, I think, just putting on the political hat. Like, the Democrats need to go on offensive.

I want you to imagine, Joy, if you last night said on the show that you think we should defund the military because you think that you are not happy with the politics that`s happening inside the military, you`d be in some campaign ads next October, right? You`d be in some campaign ads, and Republicans would be turning ads and using that to make the Democrats and Joe Biden seem weak, even it has nothing to do with Joe Biden. Joe Biden disagreed on that.

And so, look, I think that they cannot be allowed to get away with this just because it`s nihilism, just because it`s trolling and I think making them answer for that. And using military veterans like the congresswoman and other military veterans upfront, I think, is the right move for Democrats right now to not just let them get away with this.

REID: Absolutely.

And, Representative Houlahan, I guess I will throw to you. Are Democrats prepared to go out there and explain to voters that it`s Republicans who now want to defund the military? They tried to use defund the police, which is, by the way, DOA, as a thing, right? Look at New York City, where they just elected the most pro-cop person to be mayor, at least close to it.

That`s not a thing. Defund the military is a thing. They are saying it on Fox.

HOULAHAN: Yeah. And I want to back all the way up, because I hadn`t seen those tweets that you referred to about the Viet Cong. And I`m literally nauseous. My father fought in Vietnam, my grandfather in Korea. You know, the idea that we can be trolling and not understanding the consequences of this.

One of the things that struck me about General Milley`s testimony yesterday was a continued reminder that -- from him -- that, not just the people in that room are listening to the thing that we`re saying. And not just the people watching Fox News or this show are listening.

When we talk about defunding the military, the very thing that allows us to be the people we are, say the things we are saying, and to be the nation that we are, the democracy we are, other people are listening. Our enemies are listening. And I think what`s remarkable about the Democratic Party right now is that we get it, we get it, certainly much more than the Republican Party does right now.

REID: Yeah.

HOULAHAN: And it`s an important differentiation and distinction that we need to be making.

REID: Tim, you and I both grew up in Colorado. We grew up around a lot of military folks. We have military in our families.

It`s shocking to me to hear the military just, you know, disparaged and treated like garbage by the president and his party. It`s shocking to me and I`m never shocked, anymore.

Is it shocking to you to hear it coming out of Republicans?

MILLER: It is. Look, it was shocking -- you know, one thing you expect this from Trump, you know, with the losers and the suckers, this whole nonsense. I mean, Trump did this all the way back to the campaign. He accused military members of looting and stealing in Iraq.

REID: Yep.

MILLER: And this goes way, way back with him. But just to see the -- the way that it`s trickled down. It is unacceptable. And I think that Colorado`s the kind of place where the Democrats really can use this to continue to push gains -- to push their gains.

REID: Absolutely. It ain`t helpful. So -- especially, these -- these loser- frat boys, who would never even serve the country and never, you know, picked up, you know, an M16 in their life. They don`t have the courage to do it. That`s why they never did it.

Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan, who did have the courage, Tim Miller, who`s fabulous and wonderful, thank you very much.

Up next, tonight`s absolute worst is straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REID: Now to a story people are talking about that you might not think affects you but it`s very much a cautionary tale for your grandparents or your parents. You. Really, anyone. Or Britney Spears.

You`ve heard, by now, the pop star made a rare appearance in open court in California yesterday, asking a judge to end a 13-year court-ordered conservatorship, allowing her father Jamie to control her money and her personal life. In the hearing, Spears said she wanted her life back, saying it was doing more harm than good. Spears alleged that she`s been forced to make medication against her will, forced to work, and is barred from getting married or having another child under the arrangement.

According to court documents obtained by "The New York Times," in 2016, she told a court investigator the conservatorship had become an oppressive and controlling tool against her. The court ordered the conservatorship back in 2008 following a very public breakdown. But under the arrangement, Britney can`t choose her own attorney so the attorney isn`t working for her. And you don`t have to be rich and famous, like Britney, to get caught up in a system that strips your local and your financial rights.

In fact, there are roughly 1.3 million adults currently under the care of a guardian or conservatorship, family members or professionals controlling at least $50 billion of their assets. And most of those adults are elderly or disabled persons, creating situations ripe for abuse. There have been cases of firms specializing in guardianship embezzling fortunes. In one horrific case, a guardian in Florida putting do-not-resuscitate order on an elderly man, even though he said he wanted to live.

And while conservatorships can be dissolved in court, a 2018 Senate aging committee report found that courts often fail to protect those individuals and called for greater oversight.

Now, there are situations where these conservatorships are good and necessary. Even Britney Spears has acknowledged that hers, initially, provided value.

But tonight`s absolute worst is, frankly, conservatorship abuse because Britney Spears` case is getting the scrutiny it deserves and, maybe, it will spark changes to a really toxic system, much in need of reform. Free Britney.

And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.