IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Transcript: The ReidOut, 4/27/21

Guests: Darius Horton, Vin Gupta, Joan Walsh


FBI opens investigation into North Carolina shooting. Autopsy shows Andrew Brown Jr. was shot five times. Attorney calls North Carolina shooting a straight out execution. Brown`s son says, it was obvious he was trying to get away. North Carolina Governor calls for special prosecutor in Brown shooting. New video shows deputies arriving to serve warrant. Hearing on body cam release is set for Wednesday. Brown family demands release of body cam footage. Attorney says, bad law is keeping sheriff from releasing body cam footage. In the latest sign that vaccinations are working, the CDC today eased the guidelines for wearing masks for fully vaccinated people when they are outdoors.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, every one. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with show us the tape. Nearly a week after Andrew Brown Jr. was shot and killed by police in Elizabeth City North Carolina with law enforcement officials providing virtually no details and no body camera footage yet, federal investigators are now joining the investigations.

Today, the Charlotte office of the FBI launched a civil rights probe to determine whether federal laws were violated in the shooting. That announcement comes as lawyers for the family released an independent autopsy report, finding that Brown was shot five times by deputies, with the cause of death, a gunshot to the back of the head.


WAYNE KENDALL, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: We now know, because we have not been able to get any official documentation concerning this shooting that this, in fact, was a fatal wound to the back of Mr. Brown`s head as he was leaving the site trying to evade being shot at by these particular law enforcement officers who we believe did nothing but a straight out execution.


REID: Lawyers said the autopsy indicated that Brown was first shot four times in his right arm and started to drive away before the fatal shot to the back of his head. Today, Brown`s son, who along with the family and their attorneys was allowed to view a 20-second redacted snippet of footage from one body camera in the killing, also called his father`s killing an execution.


KHALIL FEREBEE, ANDREW BROWN`S SON: To my pops, man, yesterday, I say he was executed. This autopsy report showed me that was correct. Those three gunshots to the arm, that weren`t enough? That weren`t enough? It`s obvious he was trying to get away. It`s obvious. And they`re going to shoot him in the back of the head? Man, that`s not right. That`s not right at all, man.


REID: Following results of the private autopsy, Pasquotank County Sheriff Tommy Wooten said that he wanted answers as much as the public, adding that the private autopsy was just one piece of the puzzle. And today, North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper said a special prosecutor should handle all matters involving the shooting, to help assure the community and Andrew Brown`s family that a decision on criminal charges is without bias.

Bakari Sellers, one of the lawyers representing the family, said more information is needed from all parties involved to provide some justice for the family.


BAKARI SELLER, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: You don`t have to care for Ben or Bakari or Harry. You don`t have to be Democrat or Republican, you don`t have to be white or black to realize that what this family has not gotten is justice. We have an execution here in Elizabeth City.

We demand justice from the sheriff`s department, we demand justice from this district attorney, we demand justice not for anybody standing up here, but we demand justice for Andrew Brown and his family.


REID: Late today, new video was released from a city camera mounted near Andrew Brown`s house, showing Pasquotank County deputies arriving to serve a warrant on Brown in the moments before he was killed. The angle does not show what happened next.

A hearing is scheduled for tomorrow morning regarding the release of the deputies` body camera footage from the shooting.

And joining me now from Elizabeth City North Carolina is NBC News Correspondent Kerry Sanders. Kerry, I`m glad to get a chance to talk with you, because it feels to me like a lot of what`s happening among officials in Pasquotank County and in the state is playing keep away. They`re each saying, no, look over there, look over there, look over there. I don`t have the authority, I don`t have the authority. I don`t have the authority. I can`t tell you how many of these press conferences I`ve seen, where all I hear from these people is I don`t have the authority to release the tape, even to the family.

Can you give us some clarity on when, even the family and they`re attorneys, who seem entitled to it, are going to get to see what actually happened to Andrew Brown Jr.

KERRY SANDERS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well what you have in North Carolina is a rather strict law that can be interpreted. And so what you have is Sheriff Wooten here saying that he can`t release the video based on the law here in North Carolina and that it has to be determined by a judge whether it can be released. We`re six days in, and it`s only tomorrow that this is going to reach a judge.

So the family has -- and the lawyers have a pretty good argument saying that things are moving in slow motion from where they see. Yesterday, they came here to the sheriff`s office and they thought, well, we`re going to finally get a chance to look t the body camera and dash cam videos. It says to me that there may be as many as nine body cameras, multiple dash cams. And when they arrive here, they found out that they were only going to get a chance to see one body camera, one 20-second clip from the body camera, and that it was going to be redacted.

They`re law here in North Carolina gives the authority to smear the faces of the identities of the officers involved. And so, when the family went in expecting to see that they`re going to look at all the videos and only saw a 20 seconds, they were disheartened and quite frankly angry. They didn`t understand why this is happening. And they had hoped that they would only to get a chance to see it, but that they`d be able to walk out of here with copies. None of that happened.

And so now they`re going to court tomorrow and they`re going to argue that they believe all of that footage should be made public, and it will be up to a judge. But, interestingly, on Saturday, the sheriff here said that he wanted to make that video public. But in the paperwork that`s been filed, he says he wants the video to be given to the adult son of Andrew Brown, Khalil Ferebee. So if that is going to happen, it means that what he is going to see here is just looking at the video but not getting a chance to walk away with it. And not being able to walk away with it for him is going to be considered a loss. Because he wants to get it out not only for himself but for the public.

You know, Joy, not too far from here, there is another peaceful protest. And it`s notable that these folks here have been very peaceful. They have a very strong relationship with the city, with the city police, but they are not happy with the county sheriff`s office and the way the county government has been moving along with this.

REID: Kerry Sanders with some clarity on this evening, which was very badly needed, Kerry, thank you very much my friend, I really appreciate your help on this in terms of reporting.

Well, joining me now is Elizabeth City Council Member Darius Horton and former Prosecutor Glenn Kirschner. I guess I kind of have the same question for both of you. But I want to start with Mr. Horton.

How is it possible -- the police are part of the government, and presumably, if police are going to bear down on us in our homes, in our castle with big guns mounted on the backs of their trucks and blow us away in the street, the thought that we then, our families, our survivors, cannot even see how he died at the hands of government-armed agents, to me, does not sound constitutional. How is it possible that those are the rules in Elizabeth City, North Carolina?

DARIUS HORTON, CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, ELIZABETH CITY, NORTH CAROLINA: Well, I understand exactly where you`re coming from and I concur. It`s horrendous that this has taken place. And I don`t believe those are the rules. Those are some individual`s interpretation of the rules. We are in a state of emergency here in Elizabeth City, and it doesn`t have to be that way. It`s horrific, as I sat with the family this week and watched their pain and so many unanswered questions. It`s just a horrible situation.

REID: Glenn, we have here in what`s in the North Carolina law enforcement recordings law. And here is what it says. It says it establishes that recordings made by law enforcement agencies are not public records, it establishes whether to whom and what portion of recording may be disclosed, it establishes a procedure for contesting refusal to obtain a copy and it dictates -- it`s all very vague, sorry. It says the sheriff cannot unanimously release it. And we heard that from Kerry Sanders. The sheriff has to turn it over and a judge can decide.

It seems to me that if we do have a Fourth Amendment, a Fifth Amendment, if we have any rights at all, at minimum, we should be able to find out how a government agent killed us. How is that not happening in North Carolina?

GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Joy, I`ve read this law several times, and it`s pretty byzantine and confusing, and, as you say, vague, but there are two things that jumped out at me. One is that if the family member of a decedent, somebody who was killed by the police, makes a written request of the law enforcement community, then the law enforcement community has the discretion to show some of the tape. But here`s the thing, they get to decide what is, quote, relevant for the family to see.

How did they decide only 20 of the last seconds of Edward Brown Jr.`s life was relevant for the family to see? And here`s the second provision, Joy, because I don`t buy the sheriff`s department saying, oh, we need a court order, we have no authority. Subsection F says that the law enforcement agency can expedite -- can file an expedited request to get it released promptly. Guess what? Within hours of this incident, the sheriff`s department could have petitioned the court and it could have been promptly released. They didn`t do it, so they shouldn`t be now heard to say he didn`t have the authority to try to get it out sooner.

REID: It can -- I mean, amen. Councilman Horton, it tells me that the tape is bad. If they thought that this tape was helpful to the law enforcement officer, they would release it yesterday, because they`re already talking a lot about drugs and the dead man, trying to get that into the ecosystem of the news, trying to get local news to report on his past and whether he had any association with crime. But they sure are withholding this tape. Let me let you hear Bakari Sellers, who`s one of the attorneys that representing the family, and he`s talking about this law. Take a listen.


SELLERS: In North Carolina, they have a bad law. But what I can also tell you is this, Andrew Brown did something, to justify his shooting, then they would have gotten that approval from a judge last Wednesday night or Thursday morning. If they had attempted to hit them, shot at them, anything, which we know it didn`t happen, they would have gotten that approval early.

This law makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.


REID: And the attorney general, the North Carolina attorney general, Josh Stein, tweeted, saying he can`t take the case because under North Carolina law, the D.A., and not the Attorney General controls state prosecution of criminal cases. It`s just really getting to be maddening. They`re all playing keep away at this point, Mr. Horton. What can be done to make sure that this family and their attorneys -- and if they want to publicize it, they should have the right to do that, because they want people to know how their loved ones died.

HORTON: I agree with you a 100 percent, and that`s exactly where we are right now. We -- as an elected official, I stand with this family. I`m appalled that this information has not been released. And as you said, it`s the blame game. It`s pointing fingers at this one and this one. No one wants to take on the accountability. No accountability is a liability.

And to see this grieving family have so many questions un-answered questions, a redacted video of 20 seconds, it shows me that the proof is in the pudding, that there is something that they do not want to see. That`s why they`re trying to talk about his past and his criminal record because they cannot talk about the facts. And that`s why we demand answers and I`m standing and marching every day with this family hoping that soon we have some transparency.

REID: Last time I heard (ph) Ben Crump, who`s also helping representing the family, talking about not just this but other shootings that have taken place locally.


BENJAMIN CRUMP, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: We have Miss Tenicka Cox, who is the mother of Fred Cox, whose son was killed by police in High Point, North Carolina, at a church. Not only are they killing us for driving while black, shopping while black, having a cell phone while black, sleeping while black, like Botham Jean being in an apartment while black, but her son was killed while at the church while black.


REID: Glenn, that is how it feels to African-Americans right now, honestly, that just standing around while black, you know, is apparently a capital offense, dropping off Christmas presents, capital offense. You know, serving a warrant is not supposed to be your execution day, even if they`re serving a warrant. Can you just please clarify for us as you understand the constitutional rights of Americans. If somebody is serving a warrant on you, do police have a right to kill you in order to serve that warrant if you try to run away?

KIRSCHNER: Oh, in a word, no. You can`t exercise deadly force just because someone is fleeing. And when we heard from the family -- and I`ll tell you, we shouldn`t have to hear from a grieving family about what the police did because they were allowed to see 20 seconds of a videotape. We shouldn`t have to hear from a grieving family about what an autopsy showed about how many times their loved one was shot. But we have a constitutional right against an unreasonable search and seizure, right?

There is no more unreasonable seizure than an unlawful killing as part of an excessive force incident. So, you know, what happened to George Floyd, that was an unreasonable seizure. Daunte Wright, that was an unreasonable seizure. Now, if we get to see more than 20 seconds, if we get to see any of these videotapes, then we will learn whether this was also an unreasonable, unconstitutional seizure of Edward Brown Jr.

REID: And what we do know, even with that 20 seconds is that, they shot him in the back of the head. That means he wasn`t facing them, weren`t running at them, wasn`t going toward them. You don`t shoot somebody in the back of the head if they are facing you and menacing you. That isn`t possible. He was going the other direction, shot in the back of the head. That is damming. We`re going to find out more, we`re just not going to get off this story until we find out what happened.

Darius Horton, thank you much for your time this evening. Glenn Kirschner, always appreciate you.

Up next on THE REIDOUT, the conviction of Derek Chauvin and what`s next in the fight for police reform. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, who assembled the prosecutorial dream team that convicted the former cop, joins me next.

Plus the government announces new guidelines for wearing masks, as the right launches dangerous new attacks on science and also on kids at school and in the park with their moms.

And the sad state for the Republican Party. Now Biden is coming for your hamburgers. Just the latest absurd narrative, as Biden keeps winning with boring stuff like that with competence and normalcy.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.



KEITH ELLISON, MINNESOTA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I would not call today`s verdict justice, however, because justice implies true restoration. But it is accountability, which is the first step towards justice.

And now the cause of justice is in your hands.


REID: It was one week ago today that a jury handed down those three guilty verdicts in the Derek Chauvin murder trial.

Accountability may have been served, but just for a fleeting moment, as new names joined the grim ranks of the dead at the hands of police, Daunte Wright, Ma`Khia Bryant, Adam Toledo, and Andrew Brown Jr.

And while Democrats in Congress continue to slog through the grueling, maddening legislative process, hoping to bring more accountability through the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, local communities are finding it just as hard. Civilian oversight boards that were created for just this purpose are finding police accountability undermined by those very same police and local politicians.

According to the initial results of a survey by the National Association of Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement, few of these boards have any independent investigative authority or the ability to issue subpoenas.

In fact, more than half of the groups responding have no authority even to recommend discipline.

Joining me now is the Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison.

And, Attorney General Ellison, I want to first congratulate -- congratulate you on quite a complete victory. I mean, three things were charged, three convictions.

Can you talk -- walk us through a little bit of how you assembled that team and going in what the strategy was, because, as we all know, it is very, very hard to convict a police officer who kills someone on in the line of duty.

ELLISON: Well, let me tell you, I started with the attorney general`s staff. And we had some very good lawyers there.

But I also think we needed somebody -- we needed a strong sense of the medical case, because we thought that the defense might try to make an issue out of medical causation, trying to claim that, somehow, at the very instant when Derek Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd`s neck, that was when he was going to have heart disease, and then -- so, they were making that stuff up.

So, then we needed somebody who was strong in the area of prosecuting police in use of force. So, I went to a friend of mine, Steve Schleicher, who understands that. Jerry Blackwell understands the medical causation issue, together with Lola Velazquez.

And then, on the fact witnesses, I didn`t have to go far. We had a lot of really strong lawyers right in the attorney general`s office, Matt Frank, Erin Eldridge, who really knew that.

So we just teamed up. And we all were really benefited by Neal Katyal and his team, who understand appellate advocacy really well.

REID: Yes.

ELLISON: And they were willing to help us out.

So those folks, talented in their own spheres, were willing to be appointed special attorneys general in Minnesota. And we combined the team. And we were able to achieve those verdicts of guilty.

REID: And I noticed, as you went through that list, what you didn`t have were local prosecutors, and -- because I wonder if you think that part of the challenge in trying to reform this system is that local prosecutors are too close to the officers.

They work with them to convict people and put people in prison. Do you think that we are at a point now where we need to think about completely separating -- when police commit what could be a crime, separating them from local prosecutors altogether?

Because these commissions -- as you heard in the open, these commissions are having no effect whatsoever.

ELLISON: Yes, well, I do want to give credit to Mike Freeman, who is the head of the county district attorney.

He lended support. Particularly his victim witness advocate, Vernona Boswell, was outstanding.


REID: But he didn`t prosecute him. He didn`t prosecute him.

ELLISON: You`re right. No, you`re right.

I`m just trying to give credit where it`s due.

REID: Sure.

ELLISON: I would argue that the community expects a degree of independence.

The community likes the idea that there are no conflicts, no affinities, no longstanding friendships, no loyalties, that the only thing at issue is justice.

And so I think, whether, as a practical, realistic matter or not, certainly, people perceive it as being a better for the cause of justice.

REID: Yes.

And what we have seen now is, I think one of the things that alarmed a lot of folks, a lot of -- even myself covering it is, is that we really didn`t know much about Derek Chauvin and his own history.

We now know, after his conviction, that he had multiple prior instances of violence against people he was arresting, including kneeling on the neck of a teenager for 17 minutes. So, he`s got a history. We didn`t get to know that.

But we went through a lot of information about George Floyd`s history. And I say that to you because you also have one of the people who testified for Derek Chauvin, the medical examiner expert that they brought on, who`s now having his cases all opened up again from 1992 all the way through 2019...


REID: ... because now there`s some question about whether or not he was being fair when he was deciding whether or not police had committed a crime in harming someone.

Do you think that Derek Chauvin`s cases, any case that he had his hands on, ought to be reopened and reexamined?

ELLISON: Well, it`s certainly on the table, right?

We`re early on yet. We haven`t even completed sentencing. But I think that that systemic reform that you`re pointing to is certainly something that we have got to take into consideration. I mean, you just can`t have this many people being killed or -- and injured severely at the hands of law enforcement, and not look into the systemic drivers that are here.

And I just want to commend Brian Frosh, who`s the attorney general in Maryland, who is taking a look at what Dr. David Fowler has been doing over the last few years. This is entirely appropriate. And I think that I look forward to what may be -- may be uncovered.

REID: You know, the International Criminal Court is looking at the American criminal justice system and its treatment particularly of African- Americans, and saying that it might be crimes against humanity, that this actually might be something that the international community ought to take a bigger look at, in terms of whether there is systemic brutality, even torture, and, in short, severe deprivation of physical liberty, persecution and inhuman acts generally by American law enforcement.

Do you agree with that kind of an inquiry?


I think that, if we have nothing to hide, we shouldn`t worry about what might be found by the international community. I think it would be wise for the United States criminal justice system to open itself up.

But let me just point out, the international community has helped in the area of racial justice in America before. It`s largely believed that the Cold War and Cold War competition is what helped drive some of the civil rights movement.

As the United States was trying to tell the rest of the world in the emerging decolonized world, hey, join us, we`re on the side of democracy, those same countries, people like Kwame Nkrumah and others, could say, wait a minute, I can`t buy a cup of coffee in your country. Wait.

It`s others as well faced racial discrimination. As you know, Nkrumah himself went to an American university.

So, I mean, the international community is relevant in this conversation. And I think that we -- it can only make us better.

REID: Yes.

ELLISON: It can only make us better.

And I think a little bit of humility towards the rest of the world, understanding we are -- the eyes of the world are upon us, is important.

REID: Do you think that it is a good -- it is good news, and should attorneys general welcome the idea of the return of pattern and practice investigations from the Department of Justice?

Do you think it needs to be relooked at, at a federal level, whether some of these police departments are just infused with systemic racism, bias and brutality?

ELLISON: Without any question Merrick Garland`s announcement of DOJ involvement in Minneapolis and in other places is welcome news.

When Jeff Sessions said that he was going to discontinue these -- these consent decrees because of systemic pattern and practice brutality, that actually, I think, accelerated the problem, together with Trump saying, hey, don`t worry about their head when they get in the squad car.

REID: Yes.

ELLISON: You will remember that.

REID: Yes.

ELLISON: I mean, those things really made everything a lot worse.

But I will tell you, joy, state A.G.s stepped up.

REID: Yes.

ELLISON: Lisa Madigan in Illinois stepped up. Kwame Raoul stepped up. We`re trying to do our part, as state A.G.s, in the cause of justice.

REID: I`m out of time, but I have to ask you very quickly, do you think those other three offices are also going to be convicted? Your prediction on that?

ELLISON: Well, I have to say that they`re presumed innocent. I have to say that I wouldn`t charge them unless I believed that they deserve that.

And the court has already found probable cause to support our charges.


ELLISON: That`s about all I can say about that.

REID: All right.

Well, Keith Ellison, thank you very much for spending some time with us this evening. And cheers to you and your team. Thank you so much.

And still ahead: The right wing`s hostility to science has reached a new level of awfulness, targeting those who are taking the pandemic seriously for ridicule and even harassment.

Tonight`s absolute worst is next. Don`t go anywhere.


REID: It`s a new low, even for Tucker Carlson of FOX News, who this week urged his viewers to harass and threaten parents and their children for wearing masks, and to use 911 and police to enforce his attempt to criminalize a piece of cloth.


TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: As for forcing children to wear masks outside, that should be illegal.

Your response when you see children wearing masks as they play should be no different from your response to seeing someone beat a kid at Walmart. Call the police immediately. Contact child protective services. Keep calling until someone arrives.


REID: Why does he always look confused?

Well, anyway, we now know that the male version of a Karen with 911 on speed dial and a sense of presumed authority over other people`s lives should from this day on be called a Tucker.

Tucker wants his America to unleash the hounds during a time when police violence is under unprecedented scrutiny. None of that matters to Tucker. He thinks masks are like the pins North Koreans wear to show obedience to their leader, never mind that he demands obedience from his followers, encouraging his Tucker mob to find you at the playground, the zoo or inside a bouncy castle and interrogate you for making a personal choice about how to protect your kids.

The thing is, this isn`t really about masks, is it, Mr. Microwave Meals Heir?

Because we know -- and, Tucker we think you know too -- that conservatives are just really angry that they have lost control of American society and culture. It`s why FOX wants its viewers mad, mad, mad, mad about Dr. Seuss and red meat, to the point where the network is just the hub for racial hatred, and not even just that anymore, but also for a very dangerous, deeply concerning platform, so that -- committed -- so committed to the big lie, that its top host is encouraging its viewers to harass strangers and demand that they bare their faces.

This is also coming as the anti-vax and COVID-denying movements are increasingly impacting kids, like this anti-mask protest happening outside an elementary school in Beverly Hills as children just try to make their way home, or this private school in Miami refusing to employ vaccinated teachers -- get this -- based off misinformation linking the vaccine to menstruation, a claim that has been debunked.

And, also, sorry, why is a school studying their students` cycles?

But Tucker, like all of his fellow Tuckers, doesn`t actually care about the children. He just wants his viewers mad, viewers who are sick and tired of being told what to do, even as they tell women what to do with their bodies, even as they tell trans youths, well, they can`t play sports, or as they tell Americans that who they are allowed and who they`re not allowed to elect, because, you know, they get to decide.

Their anger really isn`t about masks. It`s about the business model of raising bogus concerns to keep the outrage machine just churning and churning, which is why Tucker Carlson weaponizing his fake victimhood is the absolute worst.

Meanwhile, the person you should be listening to about the pandemic, the president, is sharing the latest CDC guidelines for the fully vaccinated.

And that`s next.



REID: In the latest sign that vaccinations are working, the CDC today eased the guidelines for wearing masks for fully vaccinated people when they are outdoors.


JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Beginning today, gathering with a group of friends in a park, going for a picnic as long as you are vaccinated and outdoors, you can do it without a mask.


REID: Joining me now is critical care pulmonologist, Dr. Vin Gupta.

And, Dr. Gupta, I am among the fully vaccinated, joined team Pfizer, and I did go jogging today in the park, ask this is the mask that I wore with a doctor`s mask under it. And most of the people that I saw that were in the park -- the park was packed -- I would say like 95 percent of the people still had masks on.

There were people who were really getting upset about that. I won`t name them.

Should people be freaking out that some people like myself who are vaccinated should still wear masks outdoors? Should we do that?

DR. VIN GUPTA, CRITICAL CARE PULMONOLOGIST: Definitely not. Good evening, joy. I think you`re going to see residual masking based on personal preference for months, if not years, after this pandemic is over. Nobody should judge anyone else`s personal health decisions.

Having said that, I will say that the CDC was well timed to put this out there, because there is no data -- frankly, there has not been data for many months now that outdoor transmission is a thing, especially with warm humid air. Joy, we know that respiratory viruses don`t like warm, humid air, they like cool, dry air.

So, you had warmer weather, you had the fact that more people are vaccinated, the wind currents, there is no way you`ll get exposed unless you`re at a rave or outdoor concert where you`re really close to people who are not masking. Aside to that, this is a wise policy.

REID: Well, I mean, the reason I still do it is people who are jogging are still breathing, and in you`re in their back draft, and it`s like, if I`m going to run behind a lot of people, I do.

But I mean, look, I was also surprise today to find out that only 26.5 percent of Americans are fully vaccinated. That seems really low to me. Do you feel like we`re behind the count, because until we get to 80 percent that you talked about for herd immunity, isn`t it still possible for COVID to spread at 26.5 percent?

GUPTA: Absolutely. Absolutely. We`re not out of the woods yet, Joy. 200 million Americans plus who had a first dose, it doesn`t mean they`re fully vaccinated. Only 26 percent, what you just cited.

So that`s why we`re still looking into middle of July, hopefully for some degree of normalcy. But we need to have a different conversation now. I`ve been having conversations across the country with younger people and they need incentives. We can`t -- you know, I can wag my finger all I want and say, well, the virus is changing with young people going into ICUs. And I remind them that the virus is unpredictable. It`s caused strokes in younger people.

I`ve seen very rare complications but they happen in young, otherwise healthy people like Guillain-Barre syndrome, full body paralysis. Still, sometimes that there`s (INAUDIBLE) Joy.

REID: Yeah.

GUPTA: So, to repay them, to re -- I think table steaks right now should be -- if you want to travel, the International Association of Airlines actually, now 29 airlines subscribing to a travel pass. They`re trialing that now.

I want that to be a paradigm for travel. If you want to travel, you have to show certification. There is nothing wrong with that.

REID: If you want to go to school, you have to show vaccination, I`m with you, because I think more customers would come back into restaurants, if you knew everyone who was vaccinated. I am with you on this, though, and it`s controversial to some people.

I am not opposed to what Jim Justice is doing, giving away $100 saving bonds. If the donut people want to give you a donut, if you want to line up at the club and get free drinks, do that. It`s unfathomable to me that Americans have to get paid to do something to save their lives. Haiti and other countries would love to get the vaccine.

But, OK, we are what we are. I am for it. People are giving away weed. They`re giving -- go to the club. Stand outside the club and say, if you want a free drink, do this vaccine. I am for that.

Are you for that?

GUPTA: Absolutely, because you know why, Joy, it`s -- the larger corporations, the professional sports teams, they`ll figure it out, but it`s the small businesses, it`s the restaurants that rely on foot traffic downtown in cities across the country, they need an easy way to say, yes, come in, oh, you`re not good, and the easiest way to certification to get 100 percent capacity. That`s the thing that everybody wants right now is 100 percent indoor, whether it`s at the ballpark or whether it`s a restaurant.

REID: That`s right.

GUPTA: The only way to get their sensibly, quickly is certification.

REID: And because the sensible people who know that the virus is real and that are afraid of it who don`t want to ever catch it will be much more willing to go indoors and eat at a restaurant if you know everybody in there has been vaccinated. It`s just logical. It`s good for the businesses.

I want to shout out these doctors. I know we`re out of time. It`s these Republican members of Congress who are also doctors who released a COVID vaccine ad. I`m going to do a rare praise of Republicans. If they want to make an ad telling other Republicans because they don`t listen to me, they`ll listen to them. Good bless you all for doing, I`m going to give you credit for that that.

Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you so much for all you do. And we`re going to keep -- we`re going to keep fighting for it. So, thank you, sir.

All right. Still ahead, no, Joe Biden -- Joe Biden is not coming for your Big Mac. He`s not going to come slap it out of your hand. No, Kamala Harris is not handing out her children`s book to migrants at the southern border.

The radical normalcy of the Biden administration is forcing the right wing outrage machine to just flat out make up stuff and go -- crazy. But that`s next, so stay with us.


REID: Conservatives can`t find anything real that the Biden administration is doing to be upset about, so they`re running with fake stories to keep the fake outrage going as long as they can.

Last week, "The Daily Mail" published a piece that falsely stated Biden`s climate plan would limit you to eat just one burger a month. They cited a University of Michigan study before Biden was elected president. It found that shifts in diets to more plant based foods can lead to significant reductions in environmental impacts.

And while it`s true that cutting back on meat would help address global warming. Biden`s climate plan doesn`t include any call to limit meat- eating. Just go ahead and cram all the cola and busters you want down your gullet. Biden doesn`t care about that.

But that didn`t stop Fox News from taking it all the way to 10.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Democrats always said they want government to stay out of the bedroom. But it looks like the government just walked downstairs into your kitchen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants to cut out 90 percent of the red meat that you all eat. That`s four pounds a year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No burgers on July 4th. No steaks on the barbie. So, get ready, you can throw back a plant-based beer with your grilled Brussels sprouts and wave your American flag, call it July 4th green.


REID: Just so everyone`s aware, beer is actually made from plants. Larry Kudlow said he was joking about the beer. Come on.

And Fox apologized for misleading the audience on the topic. But that was only after politicians on the right seized on the story with Donald Trump Jr. disturbingly claiming that he ate four pounds of meat yesterday. I mean, is he okay? Maybe somebody should go check on him because his colon is probably busted. Actually, don`t check on him. The thoughts are horrible.

But that`s not the only fake news story spreading around conservative media. "The New York Post" wrote and later deleted a story claiming that a book written by Kamala Harris was included in welcome kits to migrant children. Fox wrote its own version of the article and so did multiple -- did multiple segments on the story.

Republican politicians like RNC chair Ronna Romney McDaniel asked if Harris was profiting from Biden`s border crisis. Spoiler alert, she`s not.

All the hysteria came from a photo of one copy of Kamala`s book that had been donated during a city-wide donation drive. Fox has walked down their report like they did on Dominion stealing the election after Dominion and the maybe the idea isn`t real and, you know, the idea that Tucker Carlson host of new show, but I digress.

But joining me now is Joan Walsh, national affairs correspondent for "The Nation", and Charlie Sykes, editor at large for "The Bulwark".

I need to check on both of you and make sure that your hamburgers, spelled the Trump way properly, are okay.

Joan, are your hamburgers in good order?

JOAN WALSH, THE NATION: They are just fine. They`re just fine. I would like to just laugh at this because it`s hilarious. But I didn`t think it was possible that folks fox can get worse. But they have.

Joe Biden has driven them absolutely nuts. I mean, they used to have real numbers, they had some reporters. They had -- they used to say their dayside programming -- daytime programming was straight news and it didn`t get crazy until their primetime opinion hosts. That is all good.

They have a White House reporter, correspondent, Peter Doocy, he couldn`t go and he likes to bug Jen Psaki all the time and, you know, get attention for himself. He couldn`t go there and say, hey, what is this about, Hiden being the hamburglar, and Kamala Harris`s book being given to poor, migrant child. That`s what you do, you report on a story. They don`t even bother doing that anymore. It`s insane quite frankly.

REID: I`m picturing the hamburglar with Ray-Bans on. You tweeted that a right wing 29-year-old wrote, I`m not going to get vaccinated because me not being vaccinated own the libs and it makes them mad.

It`s like, baby, if you end up in the ER, I`m the one who`s going to be mad. You`re the one who`s going to be in the ER, you`re the one who`s going to a ventilator, not me, like they actually think that I will risk death just to own the libs. That is crazy. What is happening?

CHARLIE SYKES, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: It`s a pretty good encapsulation of American conservativism in 2021. You know, it`s not about these ideas, it`s about owning the libs. As you mentioned a little bit earlier, it`s about constantly feeding the outrage machine.

It is a little bit like watching an addict, you know, figuring how we can stoke it up. We need to come up with something more outrageous, but, you know, what is interesting, you talked about Joe Biden`s normalcy. But, you know, I will look at it in a slightly different way.

Look, where is the tea party resistance right now? Joe Biden is proposing $1 trillion proposal after another, this is the largest expansion of the federal government since the New Deal Great Society, and yet, there is no Tea Party out there. There`s no energy. They are not talking about the debt and the deficit after four years of Donald Trump. health care anymore.

What is the real passion? Well, the thing they are passionate about is continuing the big lie about stopping the steal and clinging to the stories that feed this -- coming up with one bonus story after one. The absence, the dog that is not barking here, is also awfully interesting, because you would think there are huge rallies, and these huge protests and talking about death panels, what`s going to happen to the deficit. You get none of this.

REID: Because it was never about it. Can I play it real quick? This is a perfect segue to you. The guy in Louisiana, he`s the House Education Committee chair talking about slavery. Take a listen.


STATE REP. RAY GAROFALLO (R), LOUISIANA : If you`re teaching -- if you`re having a discussion on whatever the case might be, slavery, you can talk about the good, the bad, the ugly --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no good to slavery though.

GAROFALLO: Well, then, whatever the case may be. You`re right. You`re right. I didn`t mean to imply that.


REID: Joan, you wrote a book called "What`s the Matter with White People," and it answers Charlie`s question, because the outrage from the Tea Party wasn`t about deficits. It was about the black guy.

WALSH: Joe Biden is white.

REID: There you go.

WALSH: Joe Biden is white. He makes them mad. It wasn`t elected -- neither of them was officially legitimately elected of course, but Joe Biden is white so they are not out there, and their funny hats, and the American pounder costumes with, you know, hideous racist pictures of Obama.

It was never about the debt, and we said that in 2009 and 2010. It was never about the deficit. It was about one thing. We know that now. And God bless that woman for standing up saying there is no good in slavery.

REID: Indeed, and, Charlie, one of the things -- and I do recommend people read this book, "What`s the Matter with White People" because it goes through the fact that the New Deal and the things that a lot of white working place people used to cherish, they hate because it`s associated with black people and they say that the things that save their own families throughout the 1940s and `50s are on welfare and they`re all bad because diverse people get access to them. Isn`t that all there is?

That is why Fox News is in the outreach business. They are mad at people who are not white Christians.

SYKES: Well, they`re clearly mad and they want to keep people mad. They want to keep people outrage and convinced they`re victims. You can sense a sense of disappointment there are not racial riots, urban riots after the Chauvin verdict. They were geared up, I mean, they had all the talking points about that, that were cued up.

But I will say this, it`s really extraordinary looking at some of the polls. The poll yesterday showed two-thirds of Americans are in on the big spending plans, the infrastructure plans, the social infrastructure plan, raising taxes. It would suggest that while Fox and the writer are playing the culture war games, they are fundamentally losing this fight, they`re not even participants.

And so, after four years of Donald Trump, they wake up and find out the country is not with them anymore. The American people are not fiscal conservatives anymore.

REID: But is it an anymore, Joan? Isn`t it true that the things that Joe Biden is pitching is the stuff that people want and always wanted.

WALSH: Absolutely. And, you know, to get the numbers that high about, you know, the coronavirus and his handling of the economy and his spending, tax and spending plans, you got to have a lot of white people there. So, that`s one good thing I`ll say about the white people. There has got to be a fair number of white people in the crowd.

I would like them to be Republicans. I would like them to be white working class folks but there are a lot of white people in that group. So, they might turn around and see the base is gone. It`s not happening yet. We see positive signs.

REID: Isn`t it the race case, Charlie, I thought the thing that Donald Trump did understand about white working class people, they are not against spending. They just don`t like spending on certain people, but they are for spending.

SYKES: No, and apparently, that is true. One of the things he did to break the mold, he said I`m not going to do anything about entitlement programs. But again, there is a reason why Republicans are not stepping up and saying this is terrible what the Democrats are doing blowing up the deficit.

REID: That`s right, because they don`t care about deficits.

SYKES: We would think that they`re post shame, but at least in the back of their minds --


REID: They don`t remember any of that.

SYKES: Yeah.

REID: They never cared -- they never cared about it.

Joan Walsh, Charlie Sykes, thank you very much.

Before we go tonight, a quick programming note, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer joins me tomorrow on THE REIDOUT.

And immediately following THE REIDOUT, we`re getting the band together. Join Brian Williams, Rachel Maddow, Nicolle Wallace and me for President Biden`s first address to a joint session of Congress. That`s tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right exactly now.