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Transcript: The ReidOut, 4/16/21

Guests: Richard Kin, Marq Claxton, Pramila Jayapal, Madeleine Dean, Harry Dunn


Eight killed in Indianapolis mass shooting; Chicago P.D. releases body cam footage of fatal shooting of 13-year-old boy; 53 mass shootings in the U.S. in the past month; America gripped by gun violence; Tamir Rice family asks DOJ to reopen case; Pat Robertson calls police shootings an onslaught; Police and public officials donate to Kyle Rittenhouse; Michigan COVID spike raises concerns; Small social gatherings blamed for latest surge; J&J vaccine pause sparks wave of misinformation; Poll shows Republicans much less likely to get vaccinated; GOP Representative Jordan grandstands in Fauci hearing.


RICHARD KIND, ACTOR: It`s a mistake to me, okay. We don`t -- and we`re all -- we don`t know how to use this darn, these old fangled computers. We just don`t know, we`re old, we can handle it.

ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Computers are. Now, I`m out of time, but I will say Richard Kind and Andrew Weismann, ending the week with a whole different medley. Richard, I hope now you can see the benefit of putting you two together. We think it was great.

KIND: To both of you, I got it.

MELBER: Have a good weekend, you guys. Thanks for watching THE BEAT. A hundred.

And THE REIOUT with Joy Reid starts now.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with a critical and uncomfortable question. What is wrong with us? Why is our country like this, so chaotic, so violent, whether it`s police, on citizen or citizen, on citizen? Many of us woke up this morning to learn of, yet another, mass shooting, a 19-year-old gunman who opened fire at a FedEx facility in Indianapolis, killing eight people before also killing himself.

This news, mind you, this news mind you come on the 14th anniversary of the Virginia-tech shooting, when 32 people were gunned down. Meaning, we have arrived at a place, where mass shootings occur on the anniversaries of other mass shootings.

Here is what President Joe Biden had to say, today, about the epidemic of gun violence in America.


JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: This has to end. It`s a national embarrassment. It is a national embarrassment, what`s going on. And it`s not only these mass shootings that are occurring. Every single day, every single day, there`s a mass shooting in this -- in the United States, if you count all those who were killed out on the streets of our cities and our rural areas. It`s a national embarrassment and must come to an end.


REID: It is an embarrassment. I mean, learning of a mass shooting is always jarring, regardless of when it falls. But this one literally came as this country was reeling from a horrific night, the night, many of us watched, newly released body-cam video of Adam Toledo, a 13-year-old boy shot and killed by a Chicago police officer while he had his hands up. Adam Toledo, just 13, like Tamir Rice, just 12, should still be alive.

This, of course, is all happening, alongside the murder trial of former Minneapolis Police Officer, Derek Chauvin, in the death of George Floyd, in a courthouse just-ten miles from where Daunte Wright was killed, on Sunday.

So, I repeat, why is our country like this? Of course, it`s been like this for a long time. And our country is kind of always been this way. Think about how this country was founded, how it was built, how it emerged as a superpower, violently. So, in a way, of course, we`re like this.

According to the Prison Policy Initiative, U.S. police kill civilians at a much higher rate than police in other, wealthy countries. The U.S. locks up more people per capita than any other nation, by far. The U.S. leads in guns per capita and, in fact, has more guns than people, according to a study on Global Firearm Ownership.

And in the past month, we have seen 53-mass shootings in this country, alone. Some of those shootings included the killings at three Atlanta area spas, where six of the slain were Asian women, a community that`s faced an alarming spike in hate incidents, since the pandemic took hold, and the president slapped the racist brand name on it.

Less than a week after that at a supermarket in Boulder, a shooter armed with a military-style semiautomatic rifle took the lives of ten people. And about a week after that, the gunman opened fire at a California real estate office, killing four people, including a nine-year-old boy.

This country is at a breaking point, folks. It`s just a breaking point, partially because of our refusal to reconcile our violent, racist past, a pursuit the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. died for. Years before his assassination, he penned on this day, in 1963, his letter from a Birmingham jail, a letter written in solitary confinement after he was arrested for leading a march against segregation, included in the letter, were these words.

For years now, I have heard the word, wait. It rings in the ear of every negro with piercing familiarity. This wait has almost always meant never.

This is a moment, when we, as a nation, have to take a hard look at who we are, who we are, as a country, a country, where violence just feels inevitable. Waiting has failed us. So, when will it stop?

With me, now, is Paul Butler. former Federal Prosecutor, and Marq Claxton, Director of the Black Law Enforcement Alliance and a Retired NYPD detective.

And Marq, I`m going to start with you. Because, you know, we have this situation where we have police investigating shootings but police also being the people that many of us are more afraid of than random -- or just as afraid of, I guess, as random shooters. This feels unsustainable to me. I wonder how it feels to you.

MARQ CLAXTON, DIRECTOR, BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT ALLIANCE: Yes. It is unsustainable. And I think what`s really important is something that you just mentioned that that is the significance of understanding the history. Just as we have to understand the history of the origins of this nation, in regard to gun violence, we have to understand the history of policing as it relates to enforcement of laws in the community and the relationships between the police in the black and brown communities. It`s hugely significant, the history of it.

But the short answer is, we cannot sustain the way in which we`re going. There is an absolute lack of trust, confidence, and faith, faith in the current system of policing. So, it has to be re-imagined. And it has to be re-imagined, if the police come kicking or screaming, or not, but it requires a certain level of deconstruction, and rebuilding, in order for there to be a restoration of effective policing in this country, if we are to continue with policing model.

REID: Yes. And, you know, Paul, you know, the -- so, you have the Tamir Rice family asking the Justice Department to reopen that case, right? That is the case in which something like preventive policing was taking place, where police roll up on people who they think might commit a crime. And in this case, kill a 12-year-old boy in kind of like a drive-by, literally jumped out of the car shooting because he had a toy gun in his hand.

But at the same time, what we actually need police for are investigating, you know, real crimes, right? We have mass shootings. We have investigative needs in this country that police are the ones, presumably, they have to fill.

I saw you talking earlier on MSNBC with Stephanie Ruhle about like some of the ideas that people have had about what we can change about what it is police are doing with their time. Do we need to go to a model where we are using police for investigative work for, you know, post-crime and leaving this sort of pre-crime, you know, function to someone else?

PUAL BUTLER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely, Joy. So, think about the driving-while-black stops that we learned about this week, that resulted in tragedies, Lieutenant Nazario, Daunte Wright, classic stops by police, which aren`t really about law enforcement, they`re about tickets. We don`t need people with guns giving tickets because too often that leads to tragic results.

REID: Well, here is the problem though, Marq. In a country that is soaked with guns and has more guns than people, if you are giving -- if you`re having non-law enforcement, unarmed people giving out tickets, they could get shot, right, because everybody has guns. And if you have non-law enforcement people knocking on doors to do wellness checks, they could get shot because everybody has guns.

Like it seems like we are kind of at an intractable position where there are too many guns in the world, and so, police can easily say I think this person had a gun, I think that person had a gun because everybody`s got guns, right? But we also -- police just don`t seem to be fundamentally built emotionally, you know, or -- or in terms of maturity to deal with sort of crimes where you -- situations, not crimes, but situations where you need empathy, not guns.

CLAXTON: Yes. Well, you know, part of what`s called reimagining police, and I think it requires for people to really think outside of their box and outside of their comfort zone. I know I have had to do that because I have an obvious bias. I had a career in the policing profession. So when you talk about eliminating police, believe you me, even with my positions and my progressive mindset, there is some pushback.

But I think when you break it down to the simplest forms, for example, you know, Paul mentioned about traffic infractions, there`s nothing wrong with, for example, noting and taking the license information, instead of making an actual stop for a violation that you observed, like registration, take down the license-plate information and mail in that summons or court appearance, et cetera. It`s those type of things that really have to be examined, and broken down.

And I think we can take the boogieman-ism out of out of reimagining police if we start to deal step by step with police responses. There is no reason in this day and age for police to have to respond along with or ahead of fire officials to fires, or for every medical emergency that occurs, or every car accident with a no injuries or with injuries itself. So, I think if we`re honest and open about it, there are many ways and many things that could be done to safely reimagine policing and have people still have confidence that they`ll remain safe.

REID: Well, let me play this sort of maybe hopeful thing. Pat Robertson, who you would never expect -- I don`t think anybody expected Pat Robertson put their head down on their bingo card. Here he is this week talking about police conduct.


PAT ROBERTSON, CONSERVATIVE TELEVANGELIST: I am pro-police, folks. I think we need the police, we need their service and they do a good job, but if they don`t stop this onslaught, they cannot do this. We cannot have a bunch of clowns running around who are underpaid and who really are not the best and brightest. We got to have the best in there.


REID: And I mean, Paul, he makes a good point. I mean, we have a story out this -- in The Guardian, as some other reporters have done it as well, that you have police and public officials like donating money to Kyle Rittenhouse, treating him like a hero, bigging him up, you have got people whose sort of mental constitution feels like the wrong thing to have around black people, right, to have around people of color. And that is around Christian crowd-funding website, is where cops giving money to that.

So it feels like -- Pat Robertson agrees that maybe it`s the personnel that are getting hired that need to change. Maybe it`s the type of people who are being recruited into the field. And both of you can take that, but Paul first.

BUTLER: So I think part of the problem is bad apple cops. But part of the problem is this system is working the way it`s supposed to. Our criminal legal process and our police are laser-focused on black and brown people. So I`m really happy that Pat Robertson is suddenly woke. I do wish that he had thanked the activists in the movement for black lives for educating him because those activists are responsible for this social movement, that`s the largest in our history.

And, Joy, in a week of bad news about policing, there are slow signs of progress. The Chicago videotape came out after a month. The city said in the video of Laquan McDonald`s death for over a year. The officer in the Brooklyn Center case was charged three days after he was killed.

REID: Yes.

BUTLER: None of this would have happened without the work of the movement for black lives. So, God bless those activists, as Pat Robertson might say.

REID: Amen. Absolutely. And last one to you, Marq Claxton. Is part of this that we need to start drawing police from the communities that are being policed? Because Paul is absolutely right, there are too many out-of-town people policing in black neighborhoods where they have no empathy for those people. They don`t see those kids as their kids. They have nothing -- no empathy for them, even the children in the community. Do we need to start making policing local?

CLAXTON: That could offer some advantage. But I`m not one of those people who believes that there will be significant or substantive change if you make people local. Or even -- here`s one, even if you have more people who look like the people that they`re enforcing laws against. If people are so assumed (ph) by toxic police culture, you will have the same level of tragedies moving forward.

REID: Yes, unfortunately. Real talk from Paul Butler and Marq Claxton. Happy weekend, gentlemen. Thank you both for being here in this tough day.

And up next on THE REIDOUT. Dr. Anthony Fauci is here one day after he put a foaming-at-the-mouth Jim Jordan right in his place.


REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Are we going to be here two years from now wearing masks? Now I`m asking Dr. Fauci the same question?


JORDAN: No, I`m not ranting.

FAUCI: Yes, you are.


REID: Plus, 100 days since the insurrection and none of the Republicans in Congress who pushed and continue to push the big lie Have suffered any consequences.

And my thoughts as one of the cops in the Breonna Taylor killing snags himself a book deal.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.


REID: Despite leading the world in the number of vaccinations, new-COVID cases in this country are up 8 percent over the last two weeks. The spike is especially dire in Michigan, a state which now accounts for more than 10 percent of the country`s daily cases, according to The New York Times.

This comes as the state`s top-medical expert warns that they are on track to potentially see a surge in cases that`s even greater than the one that we saw in the fall. The New York Times reports that, while there is no- single reason for the surge, data suggests small-social gatherings were driving case increases. And children are also accounting for a higher percentage of cases.

And yet we`re still seeing pushback against mask requirements, like, in the town of Hudsonville, where parents pounded at the doors of a school board meeting yesterday demanding that masks be made optional for their kids. It comes as Republican leaders continue to oppose COVID precautions. Senator Ted Cruz is now defying CDC guidelines by refusing to wear a mask on the Senate floor. And Republican governors in Florida and Texas have taken steps to stop some businesses from requiring vaccines for service.

Additionally, the temporary pause of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine has spurred a new wave of misinformation on social media. As NPR reports, the most-popular link on Facebook about the Johnson & Johnson news was shared by a conspiracy theorist who thinks the pandemic is a cover for government control.

All of this may explain why a person`s politics is the leading indicator now of whether they`ll get vaccinated, according to a new Monmouth poll. They found that, among Republicans, 43 percent say they will never take the vaccine compared to just 5 percent of Democrats. That`s why it was so refreshing to see Dr. Anthony Fauci stand up for science when Congressman Jim Jordan tried to bully him in a public hearing, yesterday.


JORDAN: What measure, what standard, what objective, outcome, do we have to reach before -- before Americans get their liberty and freedoms back?

FAUCI: You know, I -- you`re indicating liberty and freedom, I look at it as a public-health measure to prevent people from dying.

JORDAN: When do Americans get their First Amendment liberties back?

FAUCI: You know, I don`t think anything was censured because they felt they couldn`t disagree with me. I think you`re -- you`re making this a personal thing, and it isn`t.

JORDAN: It`s not a personal thing.

FAUCI: No, you are. That is exactly what you are doing.

We`re not talking about liberties. We are talking about a pandemic, that has killed 560,000 Americans.

JORDAN: The American people want Dr. Fauci to answer the question.


JORDAN: What does it have to be?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But your time expired, sir.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): You need to respect the chair and shut your mouth.


REID: Come through Maxine Waters.

With me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and chief medical adviser to President Biden.

And, Dr. Fauci, thank you so much for being here.

When I saw that, I just thought to myself, thank God that Dr. Fauci mentioned the dead.

I want to ask you, does it shock you, frustrate you? How do you feel when you are peppered with questions about restrictions and freedoms, and the dead, the 560,000 dead, are not mentioned?

FAUCI: Well, it`s very frustrating, because, as a public health official, I`m very much aware of this issue of COVID-19 fatigue, about people really being worn down and tired of the kinds of restrictions that we have when we do public health guidelines.

But the numbers speak for themselves. I mean, I understand. I`m very -- Congressman Jordan mentioned the people of Ohio. I care very much for the people of Ohio. I don`t want to see them get sick or die, because we have 560,000 Americans that have died so far.

So, we`re looking at it from different perspectives. I`m looking at it from a public health perspective. And he was talking about the infringement upon liberties.

Right now, what we need to do is get this pandemic behind us. And we will do that. And it will not be an indefinite period of time. The thing that we have so much in our favor is that we now have 80 million Americans fully vaccinated, and 127 million have had at least one dose.

Each day, we get three to four million people vaccinated additionally, each day that goes by. So, what we need to do is just hang on there a bit longer, until we get the majority, the overwhelming majority of people vaccinated. And you will see the level of infection continue to come down.

And when it does, then you will see a relaxation of the kind of restrictions that people would like to get rid of because they want to get their lives back.

I certainly want to get my life back. But I also put as a higher priority the health and the safety and the lives of the American public.

REID: Well, you know, and I am one of the fully vaccinated. I`m fully Fauci`ed, as I tell everyone. I am all Fauci`ed on team Pfizer.

But the question I have is, are we really going to get to the end of it? Because Dr. Fauci, at this point, it is political. There are paranoiacs who are paranoid about you. They have decided that they don`t trust you. They don`t believe anything you say. They think you`re trying to have the government take over their lives or putting nanobots in them, and Bill Gates is going to physically control them if they get the vaccine.

I mean, it isn`t just hesitancy now. It`s paranoia. You had Tucker Carlson going on and basically saying that you`re not telling the truth, that, if you`re vaccinated, there`s no reason to wear a mask anymore.

You have people screaming at store clerks because they don`t want to wear masks. This is not rational at this point, Dr. Fauci.

So, I wonder, what do we do about the irrational resistance to doing the basics, getting vaccinated, wearing masks?

FAUCI: You know, there`s no easy answer to that, because when you`re talking about irrationality and conspiracy theories and things like that, there`s not a good logical answer to that, to just hope that people will finally realize, when they look around them, and maybe see loved ones who get infected, who gets seriously ill, that they realize that we`re dealing with a very serious problem.

I just hope that that happens. I mean, I`m very concerned about that, because, if we get a substantial proportion of people who don`t get vaccinated, then we will not get to the point that people want to get to, I mean, the point that Congressman Jordan -- and I totally understand where he wants to be. I mean, that`s a logical thing. He wants to get back to normality.

But when you have a substantial proportion of people who refuse to get vaccinated, it makes it that much more difficult.

REID: Yes.

FAUCI: And the reason it makes it that much more difficult is that, when you don`t have that many people vaccinated, you still have a lot of dynamics of virus.

Just what you said yourself a few moments ago, Joy, when you would just leading into the segment, if you look at the number of people each day who are getting infected, it`s well over an average, a seven-day average of 60,000-plus...

REID: Right.

FAUCI: ... people per day who are getting infected.

That is a very precarious place to be.

REID: Yes. And...

FAUCI: Because that would lead, with a little bit, right up to a surge.

REID: And this is the worry.

The Johnson & Johnson hold, I think, has accelerated that hesitancy and fear. Before the pause, 52 percent thought Johnson & Johnson was safe. After, it`s only 37 percent. There are now vaccine appointments that are going unfilled, NBC News is reporting. There`s like a nationwide crisis. Up to half-a-million vaccine appointments or not -- people just aren`t going to their appointments.

So, I guess my question to you would be, the message is not getting through to a certain percentage of people because of political party. Do you think, at this point, we need to, I don`t know, give Donald Trump $10 million to do a PSA?

I am sort of out of ideas as to how to get people...


REID: ... who are politically opposed to cooperating to cooperate.

FAUCI: Right.

Well, let`s just hope that there`s some shred left of looking at data and evidence. And the data and evidence are very public and very transparent.

So, when you talk about the issue with J&J, what the CDC and the FDA did, by a surveillance system that picks up adverse events, picked up one, two, three, and then finally six serious adverse events, mostly among young women, usually a week or two following the vaccination.

When you do the numbers, it`s less than one in a million.

REID: It`s very few, yes. Yes. Yes.

FAUCI: So, what -- yes.

So, what -- yes, but the important thing is that what you then see is that we take safety very, very seriously.

REID: Exactly.

FAUCI: So, if we were going to put a pause on one in a million...

REID: Yes. Yes.

FAUCI: ... then all of the other vaccines, the mRNA that we were talking about, the Pfizer and the Moderna, there should be no reason whatsoever to cancel an appointment...

REID: Yes.

FAUCI: ... because the same surveillance system that picked up the six would have picked up something with the others.

REID: Yes.

FAUCI: And there was nothing there, no red flags.

So, there`s no real logical reason not to get vaccinated.

REID: Yes.

Very quickly, before I let you go, for those of us who are vaccinated, give us a list of what you think is safe to do. Is it safe to eat in indoor restaurants, to get on a plane, to hug our grandmas? Like, what`s safe to do once you have been fully vaccinated?

FAUCI: You know, it depends on the level of infection in your community.

It doesn`t matter what the level of infection is. If you are vaccinated and you want to have something in the home, you, your family, if they`re vaccinated, if grandma wants to come in, and she`s vaccinated, and see her grandchildren, they don`t necessarily, obviously, need to be vaccinated. They can`t. Nor does the mother need to be vaccinated, as long as they don`t have an underlying disease...

REID: Yes.

FAUCI: ... that would make them very susceptible to a severe outcome.

So, you can go to a restaurant, if you`re -- but it`s a relative risk. When you have a lot of infection in the community, then you want to be careful.

REID: Yes.

FAUCI: That`s why we say wear a mask.

REID: And that -- and I don`t understand why that is -- freaks people out so much and people get so mad.

Look, get a cute mask and make it fashion. Just put a mask on. It saves some lives.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, thank you very much. Your name is now a verb. And I hope that at least you feel good about having been -- the vaccine, we just say we just get a Fauci, and that`s what we say now.

Thank you very much, sir. Have a great weekend.

FAUCI: You too. Thank you.

REID: Thank you.

And still ahead: It`s been 100 days since the Capitol insurrection, and we`re learning more about the insurrectionists and the intelligence and security failures that helped make it possible.

Two congresswomen who were inside the Capitol on January 6 join us next.


REID: Today is exactly 100 days since the January 6 Capitol insurrection.

The images of that day, a lynch mob of MAGA insurrectionists laying siege to the United States Capitol after being whipped into a frenzy by the former president`S big lie, remain indelible, as are the images from inside the Capitol, with insurrectionists violating the people`s house and lawmakers becoming witnesses forced to flee for their safety.

Michigan Congressman Dan Kildee captured video of Capitol Police officers with guns drawn just inside the door of the House chamber. And Pennsylvania Congresswoman Madeleine Dean was photographed in a gas mask as she and other members were evacuated that day.

And later, as a House manager in the impeachment trial, she movingly reflected on what she experienced.


REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): Someone shouted up to us: "Duck. Then lie down. Then ready your gas masks."

Shortly after, there was a terrifying banging on the chamber doors. I will never forget that sound.


REID: One hundred days later, we`re still learning more about the perpetrators of that horrific day and the security failures that led to it.

This week, the Capitol Police inspector general issued a scathing report, saying Capitol Police ignored critical intelligence, including a warning that Congress itself is the target. And just today, prosecutors secured the first guilty plea in connection with the siege.

A founding member of the far right group the Oath Keepers pleaded guilty to multiple felonies and has agreed to cooperate against others, becoming the first defendant to flip in the domestic terrorism investigation.

Meanwhile, in Congress, there is still no bipartisan 9/11-style commission looking into the January 6 insurrection. But House Speaker Nancy Pelosi reiterated calls for one in a letter to colleagues marking the anniversary.

I`m joined now by Pennsylvania Congresswoman and former impeachment manager Madeleine Dean and Washington Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal.

Congresswomen, thank you both for being here.

And, Congresswoman Dean, I want to start with you and just get your kind of reflections 100 days later, particularly in light of the fact that you faced continuing threats, a Trump supporter having been charged with harassment after threatening phone calls to you in voice-mails, including sexual remarks directed at you, at members of your family and grandchild.

It feels like this kind of hasn`t really 100 percent ended for you. Is that accurate to say?

DEAN: It hasn`t ended for me. It hasn`t ended for Pramila. It hasn`t ended for any of us.

I think of our staffs, what they have to worry about. They have to receive these incoming threats. You`re absolutely right. My own family, myself have been threatened. I wound up with a protection group of Capitol Police officers. I could go on for hours about the professionalism and the humanity that they brought to their job protecting me for more than two- and-a-half months, in light of these threats, as I was impeachment manager, and then thereafter.

This is a protective agency. And they were underprepared. As the report shows, they were under-resourced. And the fault, I have to tell you, from my own experience dealing with rank-and-file sergeants and upper-level members, was not theirs. We owe them, Congress owes them the protection, so that they can protect us.

Pramila, I don`t know what you think, but I can`t believe it`s been 100 days.

REID: Yes.

DEAN: We were talking recently, just today, talking about how close we were up in the Gallery together.

REID: Yes.

DEAN: Pramila just having had surgery, and the surreal nature of it.

The reason that I spoke about the nature of the sound -- the, Pramila, I don`t know if you felt this also -- the series of commands that we got, I felt like we`re safe here. We`re certainly safe in this chamber. This can`t be that great a threat.

But, of course, it was an extraordinary threat.

REID: Yes.

DEAN: And the intelligence shows that Congress itself was the target.

What does that tell you about the administration that knew that?

REID: It is frightening to think about it. And I still -- I have not gotten over it, even though I wasn`t even they`re in proximity to it.

And, Congresswoman Jayapal, I mean, on top of the threat from banging on the doors, that God knows what they would have done had they been able to get through to any one of you, in addition to that, I wonder how you feel 100 days later about some of your colleagues who were not taking seriously the other threat, which was the threat of spreading COVID, and you having to be in close contact with them in these secure rooms with no masks, and people laughing at those who are trying to distribute them, and sort of adding to that threat?

I just wonder your reflections on that or even just on the day, 100 days later?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, Madeleine is absolutely right. This isn`t over for any of us.

You might know that I started a text chain of all the people who were in the Gallery. I call it the Gallery Group, because, Joy, it has been really traumatic.

And I will tell you that every -- there are all kinds of triggers, just like with any trauma, when we see something happen, when we read about the Oath Keepers, when we see somebody on television, when we see the images again.

And we have all had to go through, as well as our staffs, a lot of work to just process all of that and to live with the continuing fear, because our colleagues are not taking this seriously.

And, yes, I contracted COVID because I was just to the left -- Madeleine and I figured out I was just to the left of where she was looking down on the floor. And so our group was sort of the last group to be led out, I think, now in looking at everything.

And by the time we made it to the room, the secure location, it was packed. There were a couple hundred people. And that video you showed was our colleague Lisa Blunt Rochester...

REID: Yes.

JAYAPAL: ... trying desperately to get people to wear masks.

We were trying to shelter in secure lockdown. But they were refusing to wear masks, and laughing when Lisa was offering those masks to them. And the minute I walked in there, Joy, I knew that it was a super-spreader event. And the minute I was done voting on the floor at 4:00 a.m., I went home and I told my husband: "I`m going to get COVID, so I`m not leaving the house. I`m isolating."

And, in fact, three days later, I tested positive. Five days later, he tested positive. And the Republicans are still not taking this seriously.

And so I think the whole experience -- you know, Mad and I were talking earlier today. And it feels unreal still because it`s hard to imagine that something like that could happen. I remember a text right at the beginning, when we first heard that the crowds were breaching the Capitol.

And my husband said: "I think you should come back to the office." And I said: "Oh, no, I`m here in the Capitol with the speaker. This is the safest place I can be."

And that gap of perception between how safe we felt or we thought we were...

REID: Yes.

JAYAPAL: ... and how safe we actually were is something that is continuing today.

I think we all feel like, without these additional security measures, without the additional 200 positions that the Capitol Police is down, without the retractable fences, all the things that General Honore has proposed with his review...

REID: Yes.

JAYAPAL: ... and without -- I mean, we just had the first person -- the Oath Keeper plead guilty, but there`s a lot of people out there who were involved in this and, worst of all, all our colleagues who are still perpetrating the big lie.

And that is...


JAYAPAL: ... the scariest thing.

REID: Well, that is the question I wanted to ask both of you, is, how -- is, what is the level of trust?

Because you have -- I mean, I still -- by the way, I`m so chilled by just - - I remember talking with Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley about her panic button not working, and all of these things that -- they have got to remain traumatic.

But then you have members on the Republican side who are doing things like forming a caucus for Anglo-Saxon values that sounds like it`s repeating the 14 words, and still trying to push through anti-voter legislation and still supporting the big lie and pretending they don`t know who won the election.

What`s the level of trust within the Congress, when you have members who it`s not clear what side they`re on when it comes to the siege, Congresswoman Dean?

DEAN: You know, I really want to say publicly that the big lie and the continuation of by our top elected officials on the other side makes everyone in this country unsafe.

It`s not just about electeds like Congresswoman Jayapal and me. It is about our staff. It is about the very Capitol itself. It is about -- think of it that we not only lost Officer Sicknick, but then Billy Evans.

REID: Yes.

DEAN: Just this week had -- we had to have him lie in honor.

We are all less safe. So, I call upon our colleagues. And Pramila and I both serve on Judiciary, where many of the big lie spreaders are, in addition to the super-spreaders. And I call upon them to reflect, to say, I owe you the truth, because I make all of you less safe as I promote the big lie and I tell people that something was stolen from them.

Nothing was stolen from them.

REID: Yes.

DEAN: This election was fair and square. We know it.

REID: It is frightening. And I am frightened for you. And I don`t know how I would be able to go about working with people who were still pushing that, when that is what caused the violence.

And, as you said, people died as a result of it. People got sick because of it. And it`s traumatized the country.

But thank you so much for being here and sharing this evening with us. It`s an important anniversary. We will never forget it.

Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, be well.

And still ahead...

DEAN: Thank you.

REID: Thank you.

More on 100 days since the Capitol insurrection. Capitol Police officer Harry Dunn joins me next. Don`t go anywhere.


REID: January 6 was a fraught day for all Capitol Police officers, with 140 officers injured and one tragically dead as a direct result of the insurrection.

But black police officers had to deal with racism on top of the violence that they were experiencing. In this BuzzFeed piece, which was actually cited by the House impeachment managers, black officers described a harrowing day in which they were forced to endure racist abuse, including repeatedly being called the N-word, as they tried to do their job of protecting the Capitol Building.

One of those officers was Harry Dunn, who later told "The New York Times" that -- quote -- "A lot of us black officers fought a different battle than everybody else fought."

Dunn was recorded by one of the insurrectionists pleading with the mob to think about the officers who were already hurt.


HARRY DUNN, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: We have got dozens of officers down.


REID: I`m joined now by U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn.

And, Officer Dunn, thank you so much for being here. I was very excited to talk to you today.

You talked about fighting a different fight than other police officers, the black officers. Can you -- tease that out a little bit more for me. What do you mean by that?

DUNN: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. It`s -- I`m glad to talk to you also.

The battle, I guess, was just different. Like, everybody, we fought physical fights, and we were emotionally tested. But to have racism rear its ugly head in there, that -- while the fight was happening, I didn`t process it while it was happening.

So, once you -- it`s all over, and you`re attempting to put together in your mind what happened...

REID: Yes.

DUNN: ... you`re faced with, wow, we really were -- got called the N-word.

REID: And you...

DUNN: It`s just -- it`s a different -- it`s a lot more to unpack than just the actual physical trauma we endured.


REID: Yes, I mean, we saw the people beating officers with a thin blue line flag. So, obviously, the -- blue lives matter was out the window.

You talked about, when you spoke with Richard Engel, about, like, being called the N-word repeatedly.

In your mind, did you experience this as specifically a racist attack, that that was their purpose?

DUNN: No. No, I believe that it was a racist -- it was racist people there, and I experienced a racist moment.

More of the purpose of there was a big lie and people that just thought that they were better than -- that they`re above the system and rules don`t apply to them. That`s what -- that`s what it was.

REID: Yes.

DUNN: So...

REID: And there are stories of some white police officers and a very few -- the vast majority of Capitol Police were heroic in trying to beat back this mob.

But there were a few who were taking photos and selfies with some of the insurrectionists. Did you know about that? Have you talked to any officers about that? And what do you make of that?

DUNN: I`m not too -- I`m not too sure about any of that and those investigations that may be going on with the department.

REID: Yes.

DUNN: I`m not familiar with that.

I do know that the officers that I know, the officers that I stood beside, that I go to work with to this day, from day one, we fought valiantly, and we stopped them from their ultimate goal of not having the certification of the election happen,

REID: Yes.

DUNN: So, those officers, the first responders unit, that Brian and Billy Evans were a part of, we are a tight group of officers, and we always have each other`s back.

So, I give nothing but kudos to those guys. So...

REID: This has been a really difficult year for the Capitol Police.

They`re -- you all have lost more officers than in the history of the Capitol Police. At what point did you process? And do you feel like members of Congress were going to die if it went on? Is that the sense that you had at the time? Or did you ever -- did you look back and think, my God, members of Congress, maybe the speaker were in -- at risk of dying?

DUNN: Well, so, it`s interesting that you say, when you process it, because once you attempt to get close to processing what happened on the 6th, then you got this attack that happened on the 2nd of April.

And you`re like, wow, I don`t even have a moment to just breathe and decompress. It`s just something else that just -- it just hits you. And you`re just like, man, can we catch a break?

REID: Yes.

DUNN: So, you`re -- and you`re still going to work, and you have still got to do your job day to day. So, it`s very difficult.

So we depend on each other. We -- we`re encouraging people to talk to therapists, and seek help just to get -- just to cope.

Now, to your other point about them, at that moment, they -- I have to think back to the particular battle, the fight. It`s easy to say now, yes, they wanted to kill the speaker of the House and they wanted to hang -- that wasn`t known then...

REID: Right.

DUNN: ... because I didn`t find the footage, obviously, because it was all over the place.

REID: Yes.

DUNN: So, it`s hard to say what their intentions were.

They were evil, possessed terrorists who were hell-bent on whatever they thought they were going to do. And they didn`t do it because of the valiant efforts of Capitol Police.

REID: Yes.

DUNN: So...

REID: I 100 percent agree with that.

Officer Harry Dunn, you`re a hero. All of your fellow Capitol Police who fought so valiantly to stop that insurrection in our Capitol, thank you for your service and what you did that day, and for what you do every day.

Thank you very much for being here with us. And have a great weekend.

DUNN: I appreciate you. Thank you for having me. That means a lot to me. Thank you so much.

REID: Thank you. All right.

DUNN: Thank you.

REID: And up next -- thank you.

And up next: the long, sad history of folks cashing in after killing black men, women and children.

We will be right back.


REID: On August 28, 1955, former World War II soldiers Roy Bryant and his half-brother, J.W. Milam, abducted and lynched 14-year-old Emmett Till. He was visiting his cousins in Mississippi from his home in Chicago, and happened into the Bryant store, which sold goods to the black sharecroppers in the area.

The lynching came after Bryant`s wife, Carolyn, lied about Emmett, accusing him of flirting with her. The men beat, bludgeoned and mutilated Till`s 14- year-old body, shot him in the head, and sank his body in the Tallahatchie River, weighted down by a heavy fan. He was discovered three days later.

His mother buried him in an open casket and let "Jet" magazine document it to make the world see the reality of lynching.

During the trial, the killer, whose lawyers volunteered to work for free, became celebrities for many white Americans. Some reporters talked about Roy and Carolyn`s handsome looks and J.W.`s tall stature and big cigars. They even alluded to Carolyn as a crossroads Marilyn Monroe.

The killers were quickly acquitted by an all-white jury, and they sold their story to "Look" magazine for $4,000, about $39,000 today. They admitted to every detail because they were proud of it.

And that`s the story that I immediately thought of when I heard that Sergeant Jonathan Mattingly, one of the cops who shot 26-year-old Breonna Taylor dead in her own home after midnight on March 13 of last year, has snagged himself a book deal. Mattingly is calling his book "The Fight for Truth: The Inside Story Behind the Breonna Taylor Tragedy."

He even scored an interview with Michael Strahan on ABC, in which he made it clear who he thinks the real victim is.


SGT. JONATHAN MATTINGLY, LOUISVILLE METRO POLICE DEPARTMENT: I`m not going to sit here and act like playing the big victim card. But, I mean, I was a victim of this as well. My family has been a victim in this.

They have had to go on hiding. They have had death threats. When somebody sits back from their mansion and accuses somebody they don`t know of being a racist and being a dirty cop and being a murderer, when that`s not the case, that does affect you.


REID: The predictable revulsion caused Simon & Schuster to back out of the project, saying they will no longer distribute the book.

Less clear is whether they will keep doing business with Tennessee imprint Post Hill Press, which is publishing the book, and which also both titles by right-wing demagogue Dan Bongino and Congressman Matt Gaetz, who`s currently embroiled in a sex trafficking allegation involving women and potentially a teenager.

Mattingly isn`t new to trying to profit off killing Breonna Taylor. He previously sued her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, claiming that the warning shot that he fired that hit Mattingly in the leg after hearing what he thought were people breaking into their apartment while he and Breonna were asleep caused him severe trauma, mental anguish and emotional distress.

Mattingly later was criticized by his command for writing an e-mail to his fellow cop, saying -- quote -- "We did the legal, moral and ethical thing that night" by killing Breonna Taylor after showing up at her house with a bum warrant where their suspect was not.

Lord, please grant me a country where killing black people and those who support our right to survive to old age doesn`t make you a right-wing celebrity, like George Zimmerman became for killing teenage Trayvon Martin, or Kyle Rittenhouse, who shot three white, Black Lives Matter protesters, killing two of them, and drew applause and donations from police and conservative public figures.

And now Jonathan Mattingly, who apparently will now seek to graduate from being a guy who ended the life of a young black woman to being a vampire who turns her death at his hands into personal profit and right-wing stardom.

That is tonight`s REIDOUT.

Have a safe weekend.