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Transcript: The ReidOut, 4/13/21

Guests: Ralph Godbee, Katie Phang, Vin Gupta


The Minneapolis area is on the edge after police shooting. Chauvin prosecution rests, defense presents its case. Floyd and Wright families hold joint news conference. Aunt says, George Floyd`s girlfriend was nephew`s teacher. Officer who shot Daunte Wright resigns. Brooklyn Center Police chief resigns. Protesters gather for third night in Brooklyn Center. Officer says she mistook pistol for taser.


ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: "THE REIDOUT" with Joy Reid is up next.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone. We begin THE REIDOUT tonight with the tension bubbling over in Minnesota. The Minneapolis metro area is on edge after two nights of protest following the police shooting of 20 year-old Daunte Wright during a traffic stop in Brooklyn Center on Sunday.

Outraged over the needless death of yet another black person in America at the hands of law enforcement, demonstrators last night gathered outside police headquarters where they engaged in a tense standoff and were met with tear gas.

Tonight, the cities of Minneapolis, St. Paul and Brooklyn Center, have all imposed curfews in anticipation of further protests. This comes as the defense began presenting their case today in the Derek Chauvin murder trial just across town in downtown Minneapolis. Word also seems clear that Chauvin`s lawyers are intent on putting the victim on trial highlighting George Floyd`s prior arrests in and assailing his character.

This afternoon, the Wright family together with the Floyd family held a press conference with Attorney Ben Crump. Wright`s grieving mother described the moment that she called to see if he was okay only to find out he had been fatally shot.


KATIE WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT`S MOTHER: I never imagined this is what was going to happen. I just thought maybe he was being arrested. And then when I called back, the girl that he had in the car answered the phone and it was on a FaceTime and she said -- she was crying and screaming and she said that they shot him and that she pointed the phone towards the driver`s seat and my son was laying there unresponsive.

That is the last time that I seen my son. That`s the last time I heard from my son and I have had no explanation since then.


REID: Daunte Wright`s aunt expressed outrage over the loss of her nephew who left behind a one-year-old child.


NAISHA WRIGHT, DAUNTE WRIGHT`S AUNT: They murdered my nephew. She killed my nephew. My nephew was 20. Did you all not see my little great nephew? Did you all not see that beautiful baby? He is fatherless, not over a mistake, over murder.


REID: Daunte`s aunt also said her nephew had a personal connection to George Floyd.


N. WRIGHT: And the craziest thing is to find out today that my family has connections to this man, to this family. His girlfriend was a teacher for my nephew.


REID: The officer who shot and killed Daunte Wright is Kimberly Potter, a 26-year-old Veteran of the Brooklyn Center Police Department, who had also served as President to the Police Union.

Yesterday and, again, this morning, Brooklyn Center Mayor Mike Elliott made clear that Potter should be fired and he had the power to do so. That`s because the city council granted the mayor command authority over the agency last night. They even recommended that Officer Potter be fired. Instead, we learned from Mayor Elliott in a chaotic press conference today that Potter had resigned, a move that could preserve her pension. But the mayor seemed unclear of the implications of that resignation, which is a distinctly different thing than being fired.


REPORTER: Since officer potter was allowed to resign, is she allowed to keep her pension and can she join another police department?

MAYOR MIKE ELLIOTT, BROOKLYN CENTER, MINNESOTA: You know, I do not have the answer to that.

REPORTER: Did the city ask her to resign?

ELLIOTT: We did not ask her to resign. That was a decision she made.

REPORTER: When did she make this decision and did she get word that you were planning to terminate her?

ELLIOTT: I do not know if she got wind of an impending termination or not.


REID: Mayor Elliott later clarified that he had not necessarily accepted her resignation. But the problem is it`s not uncommon for bad officers to resign, keep their pensions and move from one police department to another. That`s what happened with the Ohio police officer who resigned from his position under scrutiny of his competence then moved on to Cleveland where he wound up leaping from a police cruiser and gunning down Tamir Rice back in 2014.

And as a former president of the Police Union, Kimberly Potter would certainly know whether resigning would help preserve her future job prospects. Multiple outlets have also pointed out that Potter played a role in advising officers who were involved in shooting and killing another black victim in 2019. Potter was first at the scene where she instructed the two officers responsible for shooting and killing the man who was on the autism spectrum to get into separate squad car, turn off their body- worn cameras and not talk to each other, according to the investigative report.

On top of Potter`s resignation today, the Brooklyn Center police chief also resigned just a day after he characterized the Wright shooting as an accident. He said Potter had confused the holster containing her taser with the one holding her firearm. Never mind that there`s a dramatic difference in weight between a plastic taser and deadly weapon, and that because of where the holsters are placed in that department, it was a simple question of knowing your left hand from your right hand.

Now, The New York Times is reporting that it was a more common problem among police than we necessarily knew with at least 12 documented incidents since 2001. Unfortunately, in severe cases, the officer did not serve much jail time or any.

Joining me now from Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, is NBC News Correspondent Ron Allen. Ron, give us a sense of the situation there. I can see crowds massed behind you.

RON ALLEN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Joy, the battle lines are drawn again, yes, there is a crowd back there. They`ve been gathering for the last hour or so. Protests, the curfew still several hours away here and over on this other side here in front of police headquarters, you can see that the National Guard are here backing up and reinforcing the police department. So we`ve been seeing them bring in reinforcements all afternoon.

So there`s still a lot of anger. There`s still a lot of frustration. There`s still a lot of outrage out here. Yes, it was positive but in the protesters will tell you the officer resigned, the police chief resigned but they want to see her prosecuted. And we`ve been hearing from local prosecutors that a decision about that may come as soon as tomorrow. They`re reviewing the case but it`s another example perhaps of how authorities here are trying to move quickly, trying to be transparent about what they`re doing to try and bring calm to this city.

Also tonight, it will be interesting to see how aggressive the police are when they -- if they choose to disperse the crowds. The city council here yesterday passed a resolution banning the use of tear gas and other chemical agents and also banning -- trying to basically make the situation here less hostile.

But, again, now we see officers, police, National Guard in military fatigues so, again, there is an air of the military here, which is the thing that a lot of protesters are complaining about.

And you heard the families today. George Floyd`s relatives, Daunte Wright`s family, you saw the grief and the pain. They`re trying to support each other. We had an interesting chat this afternoon with Chyna Whitaker who is the mother of Wright`s little boy whose name is Daunte, as well, cute little boy who`s one, he`ll be two in July. And, you know, to hear her talk about how this little boy will have to grow up without a father and how Daunte, she says, was such a role model. He was a hard working, doting father who was very present in his son`s life.

Just a very emotional conversation we had with her that really drove home, you know, protesters are one thing and police and all that another thing, but when you get down to just the families and the individuals who are devastated by what has happened here and how their lives have been changed forever, it`s just very moving to see, but the bottom line is, people here are hoping for some progress. They want to see this woman prosecuted. They want to see justice.

You know, so many people have said, you know, there wasn`t due process for Daunte, so there shouldn`t be this slow process for this officer as well. They want to see justice happen quickly and they`re going to be out here again tonight. We`ll see what happens when curfew comes whether the police let this go or whether they, as they did last night, disperse the crowd, tear gas, rubber bullets and move people out of here. Joy?

REID: Yes. Ron Allen, thank you so much, my friend. I really appreciate your reporting. Thank you.

And with me now is former Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee and Jonathan Capehart, Host of THE SUNDAY SHOW on MSNBC.

I just want to start with sort of maybe the most obvious question, Chief Godbee. I want to put up a New York Times graphic showing the police service weapons, a glock service weapon and a taser. And, you know, taser is a brand name. They can look different. They can have different shapes and different colors, but generally the same shape but can come in different colors but this is The New York Times sort of depiction of what a taser looks like and a typical police service weapon looks like. Are police officers supposed to be familiar enough with their weapon, their service weapon to know it`s not a taser?

RALPH GODBEE, FORMER DETROIT POLICE CHIEF: Unequivocally, Joy. Watching that press conference yesterday as a former chief, my blood was boiling, first, for the chief who should have resigned and I don`t know if he resigned in lieu of termination but he did a horrible job yesterday representing what happened in that community and Daunte`s murder.

The weight between a gun and a conducted electrical device, i.e., a taser, it is so distinctly different. Unfortunately, after the Fruitvale incident with Oscar Grant, when that was the reported reason why he was killed, it became a training standard and a policy standard that the taser is worn on the opposite side or your weak hand side, it`s a cross draw function. So for her to say that it was an accident, it is really incredulous to me at this time and I have to see and hear a lot more before I`m convinced that this was an accident.

And then the second point that I think it`s very important for your viewers to understand, there`s no such thing as an accidental shooting. You have to purposefully put your finger in a trigger guard and the amount of pound pressure to pull that trigger is so much different than it is for a taser. So the fact that the officer resigned, I`m suspect about that because that`s preservation of a pension. That has nothing to do with any kind of altruism or any kind of regret for the loss of life of Daunte Wright.

REID: Yes. I don`t think she expressed any in her resignation letter, but she said she just sounded a bit of a joy (ph) to be a police officer, which is great for her.

Jonathan, you know, if I worked at a fast food restaurant and it had a mouse problem and I accidentally put mouse poison in the McFlurries, it would take about four seconds for my manager to fire me because I poisoned the McFlurries and somebody died. It`s a problem to me and I want to you comment on this that it is -- that it takes so much to try to remove a bad police officer even after they rack up complaints, as we saw in the Derek Chauvin case, where he had 17 complaints in his 19 years, that it`s so difficult to remove a bad police officer and that one could, in theory, resign, preserve her pension and do like the police officer who killed Tamir Rice did.

One other question, Tulsa, a year after the acquittal in a manslaughter case, an woman name Officer Shelby, Betty Shelby, who was acquitted in shooting Terence Crutcher in Tulsa Oklahoma in 2016, she bopped on over to another city and became a new deputy and got herself a new pension. Your thoughts.

JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC HOST: Well, this gets to something that I know you`ve talked about before, Joy, and the police chief knows about as well, and that`s police contracts. I mean, it is the police contracts that make it, oh, so difficult for police -- for police departments, for municipalities to rid themselves of bad cops. And bad cops are few compared to the overall size of police forces around the country, but those bad cops do bad things. And it should not be such a high hurdle or impossible task to protect the community from a police officer that has done harm to the community.

And I watched that video. You know, Joy, I try not to watch many of these videos because there have been too many. There have been too many accidents when it comes to African-Americans. But when you watch her body cam video, she has that gun in her hand for an awfully long time. And to my mind, you ought to know at that point after ten seconds whether what you have in your hand is a gun or a taser and when she`s screaming, I`ll tase you, taser, taser, taser, you can see the gun in the frame.

So, for the police chief to come out -- former police chief to come out and say that this was an accidental shooting is unacceptable and the fact that he and Officer Potter, former Officer Potter, were able to resign, that question at the press conference today was very important, does she get to keep her pension, does she get to go to another jurisdiction, because another jurisdiction is now going to have to worry about this cop in their ranks, but also why didn`t the mayor know the answer to that question? And why didn`t he fire her after the council gave him the power to do so?

I feel -- I went to college in Minnesota. I love Minnesota. I have relatives in Minnesota, in-laws in Minnesota. I really feel for the people of Brooklyn Center.

REID: Amen, Jonathan, I wish you could scootch up right here next to me if it wasn`t COVID and we could ask the mayor together because he`s supposed to be on later. You could sit right here or maybe across six feet and, yes, I have the same question, sir, a lot of questions.

Ralph, and you wonder why people want to get rid of these police officers` bills of rights because it keeps bad cops in place. Ralph Godbee, former Chief and Jonathan Capehart, thank you both very much.

And next on THE REIDOUT, much more on the killing of Daunte Wright. There are mounting questions tonight about what legal consequences the officer who shot him will face.

Plus, after a series of powerful prosecution witnesses, the defense in the Derek Chauvin murder trial begins and it`s pretty much what you`d expect.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt that Derek Chauvin was justified, he was acting with objective reasonableness.


REID: And the government hits the pause button on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Just how big of a deal is this as COVID cases continue to spike in some areas.

THE REIDOUT continues after this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s just a lot of chaos going on right now. We`re just trying to wrap our heads around the situation and try and create some calm, right, and that can kind of transition into we`d like some calm for the community, just some pause and community calming, as we -- as we try and wrap our heads around the entire situation.


REID: Brooklyn Center, Minnesota`s new acting police chief got an earful from community members, who joined in at the city`s press conference today.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just really concerned that the acting chief here, he can`t wrap his head around that, what went on with Daunte.

I wrap my head around it every day. You can`t wrap your head around it? But you go home, and you wrap your arms around your kids every day, every day. I`m going to need you to wrap your mind around it.

I`m going to need you to get in tune. I`m going to need you to put your boots on the ground and act like you care about black, brown and indigenous bodies. You don`t know what it feels like. I`m sick of you all.

You can take the trash out, but it has a way of recycling itself.


REID: Wow.

At one point, the acting chief, who seemed, quite frankly, well in over his head, cited his bringing food to community members as community outreach, which an organizer later called out as meaningless.


GRUENIG: We want to reach out to the community. We do that on a regular basis. We will continue to do that, offering -- at times, we offer food, so we can engage with our citizens and kind of interact and get to know them better.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t need your police officers to get to know me, my name, my family before they humanize me and respect me.

I need them to do their job. And their job is to protect and serve. And they don`t need to know me to serve me. So, all -- the whole food thing and everything else, that means nothing.


REID: Wow.

And yet another community member said Brooklyn Center felt like a sundown town, you know, the name for towns in America where black people couldn`t be out after sundown.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you do going forward to make sure that this racial profiling -- because, right now, Brooklyn Center looks like a sundown town. Black people better not be traveling through here after sundown.


REID: Joining me now is Katie Phang, trial attorney and MSNBC legal contributor, and former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance.

And I want to note for our audience that we were supposed to have the mayor of the city of Brooklyn Center, Mayor Mike Elliott, but he suddenly was unavailable. We received information to our booking team that said there`s a situation that he`s dealing with, and he`s not doing any media tonight.

So, that was an interesting development.

So, I want to really thank Katie and Joyce for actually being in a bit early to try to deal with what he should have been dealing with tonight himself.

He had a rough day today. It was a difficult day to be him.

And, Katie, I want to go through just a few of these things just to start off.

First of all, the fact that this young man was pulled over for apparently having a dangling air freshener in his car, and then they said there was a tag violation, except that we know, because of COVID, it`s -- there`s been delays in making sure that automobile tags are given out in a prompt manner, because it`s something had to physically do in an office.

And even if the thing that he had a warrant out for -- at least I have seen in reporting that it was a misdemeanor. So it wasn`t like he was some sort of serious master criminal.

Give me your just sense just looking at this as an attorney of how likely - - each -- I`m going to ask each of you, but I will ask you first, Katie, and then, Joyce.

How likely does it look like this is something that we`re going to see a prosecution come out of?

KATIE PHANG, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Look, unfortunately, I have to say, as a former prosecutor in two different jurisdictions, we had several cases that were based upon these stops that were made for the broken taillight being out, the expired tag, the too dark tint, and that reasonable suspicion to effect that traffic stop or to stop that person in the car sometimes gives rise to probable cause to actually effect the arrest.

So, from a pure procedural standpoint from law enforcement, if there was an expired tag, or if there was something that was wrong that was a traffic offense, then stopping the vehicle was actually OK.

But then we actually get into the idea that they`re pretextual, though, right, that they`re really not the important issues, right? The dangling of the air freshener, in and of itself, is not a crime. It`s not a traffic offense or anything like that. It`s the driving while black pretext is what we have going on here, right?

And, unfortunately, we have this occurring less than 10 miles away from where the Derek Chauvin trial is going on. So, we`d like to expect that there would be a criminal prosecution, at a minimum, of manslaughter of former officer Kim Potter.

But above that and beyond the criminal prosecutor briefly, Joy, I`d like to just touch on this. It`s the idea of the abolishing of qualified immunity, the idea that where you can`t hit them where it hurts the most, which is your pocket sometimes, when you can`t sue for the violation of civil rights, because there`s this immunity that is afforded to officers that are violating civil rights on a daily basis.

That`s really something that gives people this carte blanche idea that they can run around as cops and do the wrong thing. And so I think that we need to have a conversation. I know, in Minnesota, just a couple of weeks ago, the House passed a new bill -- it doesn`t have a sister accompaniment yet - - that allows for a cause of action civilly to sue a cop or a peace officer for the violation of a constitutional right.

But that`s just in the backyard of Minnesota.

REID: Yes.

PHANG: We need to see this across the United States.

And so I think that I`d like to see a criminal prosecution, but I`d love to see a civil case, because I think that that`s where people get motivated, unfortunately, these days, which is money.

REID: Amen.

And, Joyce, there are there all these sort of compounding things, right? I think that that was an important point, that, in Virginia, we see Lieutenant Nazario is personally suing the two officers who stopped him. He`s claiming a Fourth Amendment violation, and he`s suing them individually. I believe he might be suing the department as well.

So, in some states, you can, some states, you can`t. Some states have these very strong police bills of rights, which afford, obviously, the union, the police unions, which is the last really super strong, powerful union in the country. They have such a symbiotic relationship with prosecutors. They have such empathy, because they are team members with prosecutors.

And there`s so very few times when people get prosecuted. And then you look at a place like Brooklyn Center, which is 29 percent black. It has the second highest percentage of black residents in all cities in Minnesota. It`s only one of two cities that are non-majority white.

So, it`s in a particular area. And you see police being told, stop a lot of people, because, as Katie said, it`s just pretextual. Stop a bunch of people and you may find other crimes. And you may find other things you can fine people over. And cities like Ferguson, Missouri, we know, notoriously use this for revenue.

So, black people then become just income generators. We just stop them all, until we get enough crimes to charge.

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Brooklyn Center reminds me so strongly, Joy, of Ferguson.

And it was something that Mayor Elliott said at the press conference today that really grabbed my attention. He made the point that none of their police officers live inside of the city.

REID: Yes.

VANCE: And that was what happened in Ferguson. And we all know that that`s what really makes it so much easier for these departments to objectify people here, where you have a lot of white police officers who don`t live in the city. As you point out, it can become a profit-making mechanism for the city. And so it goes unchecked for far too long.

What this really points out is how critical it is for Joe Biden and Merrick Garland to get their ducks in a row at the Justice Department and get some of their senior-level people confirmed by the Senate and in place, because it`s clear that DOJ will have a lot of work on its hands going back to the consent decree process that`s used to transform entire police departments, to require them to not just pay lip service, but to actually update use of force policies...

REID: Yes.

VANCE: ... to train officers to engage in communities.

So, your original question was, will there be a prosecution? I think there will likely be one here. Federal law, which will be changed if the George Floyd Act passes in the Senate, as it has in the House, will make it easier for federal prosecutors to prosecute. Right now, it`s really difficult, because you have to prove a malicious intent to deprive someone of their civil rights. And that`s a heavy standard.

REID: Right.

VANCE: But the state of Minnesota has shown that it`s capable of prosecuting.

The problem is, that this looks a lot more like a manslaughter and maybe even some sort of a negligence charge than a murder.

REID: Yes.

I feel like the ghost of sort of Philando Castile, which also happened in that state, is hovering over this. But it would be nice if police departments hired people that were colorblind in the administration of justice, and not actually colorblind and can`t tell the difference when a yellow Taser and a black Glock.

Katie and Joyce are going to stick around.

Up next: The defense begins its case in the Derek Chauvin murder trial, same state, trying to blame George Floyd himself for dying under Chauvin`s knee.

Stay with us.


REID: The defense wasted no time today putting George Floyd on trial for his own murder, forgetting, apparently, that this is in fact the murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin.

In just the first day of the defense`s case, we have already heard all the excuses, including Floyd`s past drug use, the superhuman black man stereotype of excited delirium. And, of course, we cannot forget the menacing crowd, including that 9-year-old girl.

Surprisingly, the judge allowed the defense to question a former police officer and paramedic, not from the deadly 2020 incident, but from a prior drug arrest in 2019, when Floyd was suspected of consuming pills.

The defense was allowed to show body cam video of that arrest. But you know what`s different? George Floyd was not thrown to the ground or put in a prone position or had an officer`s knee on his neck for more than nine minutes. And, surprise, he survived that encounter, while the defense has tried to make the case that George Ford`s death was caused by his drug use.

You would think that, during his 2019 arrest, where he allegedly consumed controlled substances, he would have presented at least some of the same medical symptoms that he did under Chauvin`s knee.


ERIN ELDRIDGE, MINNESOTA ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: He indicated that his respiratory effort was normal, correct?


ELDRIDGE: He was not in respiratory distress, correct?


ELDRIDGE: His blood oxygen level was normal, right?

MOSENG: Correct.

ELDRIDGE: His pulse was normal, correct?


ELDRIDGE: His heart rhythm was regular or normal, right?

MOSENG: Correct.

ELDRIDGE: He didn`t stop breathing.


ELDRIDGE: His heart didn`t stop.


ELDRIDGE: He didn`t go into cardiac arrest.



REID: With me are Katie Phang and Joyce Vance.

Let`s go through it. I want to start. This is cut two for my producers.

Let`s start with Barry Brodd, who was one of the experts that was called by the defense. He actually is an expert witness who`s -- you might not remember him, but you will remember the case that he most famously testified in. This was the Laquan McDonald killing in Chicago, in which he testified that it was a legitimate use of force to shoot Laquan McDonald 16 times.

Officer Van Dyke in that case was convicted of second-degree murder and aggravated battery. He shot a man who was running away 16 times. Barry Brodd thought that was a perfectly fine use of force.

Here`s Barry Brodd attempting to explain how keeping George Floyd in this prone position, with 91 pounds of downward force on him, was not use of force at all, because it doesn`t hurt at all.


BARRY BRODD, EXPERT WITNESS ON USE OF FORCE: The maintaining of the prone control, to me, is not a use of force.

ERIC NELSON, ATTORNEY FOR DEREK CHAUVIN: Why is it not a use of force?

BRODD: Because that`s a control technique without -- it doesn`t hurt.

STEVE SCHLEICHER, MINNESOTA PROSECUTOR: I need to ask you if you believe that it is unlikely that orienting yourself on top of a person on the pavement with both legs unlikely to produce pain?

BRODD: It could.

SCHLEICHER: If this act that we`re looking at here in Exhibit 17 could produce pain, would you agree that what we`re seeing here is a use of force?

BRODD: Showed in this picture, that could be a use of force.


REID: OK, Katie, you`re here to explain the defense side of this.


PHANG: Yes, no.

I mean, yes, the defense failed today. Brodd was unlikable. I don`t know why the defense put him on, other than maybe they couldn`t find anyone else that would come and testify as an expert on behalf of Derek Chauvin at this trial. He clearly failed at the Laquan McDonald trial.

So, I mean, I don`t know if his track record was so good. What was really critical about this expert today, Joy, is that he was trying desperately to show, in a very clinical way, that use of force has to be done compliant with police procedures, et cetera.

The problem is, the defense must assume that the jury is not paying attention, because we heard from the actual guy, Lieutenant Mercil from the Minnesota Police Department, who testified for the prosecution, who said that that restraint technique that Derek Chauvin used is not taught by the Minnesota P.D.

So we already have the person who`s actually in charge of everything, including the chief of police, saying, we don`t condone this, like, we don`t authorize this.

And the other critical mistake that was made today by the defense was through this guy Barry Brodd. Brodd said, you know what, you have to look at what the reasonable officer was doing, meaning, we need to put the jury in the shoes of this officer, so this officer can -- the jury can feel whether or not and determine without this officer acted reasonably or objectively.

Here`s the problem. And Joyce would agree with me. As lawyers, there is something called the golden rule. You are not allowed to ask the members of the jury to put themselves in the shoes of the party. That`s a mistrial, right?

So, what`s critically wrong with this and with this argument that they`re doing, if you ask the jurors, any of these 12 jurors to put themselves in the shoes of Derek Chauvin, none of them are ever going to say that what that cop did was reasonable, objectively, subjectively, was it reasonable?

So, that was a major mistake, because none of those jurors are going to say that nine minutes and 29 seconds on somebody without a pulse is something they would ever do as a reasonable officer.

REID: Right. Yes.

Let me play...

PHANG: So, that was a critical problem.

REID: Let me play one more Barry Brodd set.

This is him trying to use the terms resting comfortably in any way related to George Floyd.


SCHLEICHER: What part of this is not compliant?

BRODD: So, I see his arm position in the picture that`s posted.


BRODD: That a compliant person would have both their hands in the small their back and just be resting comfortably, vs., like, he`s still moving around.

SCHLEICHER: Did you say resting comfortably?

BRODD: Or laying comfortably.

SCHLEICHER: Resting comfortably on the pavement?


SCHLEICHER: At this point in time, when he`s attempting to breathe by shoving his shoulder into the pavement?

BRODD: I was describing what the signs of a perfectly compliant person would be.

SCHLEICHER: So, attempting to breathe while restrained is being slightly noncompliant?



REID: I`m just going to leave that there for the audience to absorb and move on to Officer Peter Chang. He was the fifth officer, the other officer who was there, because the other piece of the defense case, Joyce, is that he`s trying to say, well, the crowd also killed George Floyd, because they were mean.

So, here is the other officers raising the concern about that supposed threat. Take a listen.


MATTHEW FRANK, MINNESOTA PROSECUTOR: And you assumed, when you were doing, that those four officers were OK over there because there were four of them, correct?


FRANK: And if they had radioed for help, you would have heard it over your radio?


FRANK: And they never radioed for help, did they?



REID: That felt like a strong cross to me, Joyce, because it`s true.

If they were so menacing, why didn`t they call for backup?

VANCE: The defense puts these witnesses on the stand to try to create reasonable doubt in the mind of at least one juror, so they can avoid a guilty verdict.

And this was not a successful day for the defense, I don`t think. You know, the caveat, joy, is we can`t see the jury.

We don`t know how they`re reacting. It`s possible that the defense has identified a juror that they`re trying to single out, and hope that that juror will hold out against rendering a verdict.

But nothing that we heard today was really sufficient and I`ll make an interesting legal point, the parties give the judge their requests for jury instructions at the end of the trial, the judge will instruct the jury about the law and the jury is obligated to apply that law and the defense asked for an instruction on expert witnesses and the instruction that they wanted is a somewhat standard one that essentially tells the jury they should use their own judgment and that they should use their common sense and they can reject an expert if it doesn`t comport with their common sense.

And so going back to Mr. Brodd (ph), I think the defense will regret having asked for an instruction that`s that strong and what the jury saw today was someone whose testimony just was biased. I mean that`s really what it came down to, didn`t comport with the reality that this jury has heard about or has understood through their own common sense and the day looks like it was a failure for the defense.

REID: Yeah, listen, you guys are lawyers, not me, that is how I looked at it as well, quite an attempt and quite a miss.

Katie Phang, Joyce Vance as we said, we never know with the jury. Thank you very much.

And still ahead, the FDA and CDC are calling for a pause on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine after reports that it could cause blood clots, an extremely rare case. What it means for global vaccination efforts? Well, we`ll find out next. Don`t go anywhere.


REID: Today, the FDA and the CDC announced a temporary pause on the Johnson & Johnson COVID vaccine. This comes as they review six cases of an extremely rare type of blood clot linked to people who received the vaccine. The U.S. cases were observed among women between 18 and 48.

To date 6.8 million people have received the J&J vaccine. That would mean there`s less than a 1 in a million chance of getting a clot.

Just to put it in perspective according to the CDC 9,000 men, women and children get clots each year leading to 100,000 deaths. In fact, certain types of birth control pills increases a woman`s risk two to four times. The CDC`s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices which advises the public health agencies on vaccine uses is holding a special meeting tomorrow to review the J&J data.

The top COVID advisers at the White House moved swiftly to calm nerves and assure Americans there`s more than enough vaccine to go around despite the pause.


JEFF ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE COVID RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Let me start by saying that this announcement will not have a significant impact on our vaccination program. We have more than enough supply of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines to continue the current pace of about 3 million shots per day.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER: The pause not only allows us to take a look at the cases and learn more but it is also a signal out there to help the physicians, so you`re talking about tens and tens and tens of millions of people receive vaccines with no adverse effect, this is a really rare event.


REID: President Biden also tried to reassure Americans.


JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I made sure we have 600 million doses of the mRNA, not of either Johnson & Johnson and/or AstraZeneca, so there`s enough vaccine that is basically 100 percent unquestionable for every single solitary American.


REID: This afternoon, Pfizer announced it will ramp up production of its vaccine and can deliver 10 percent more doses by the end of May.

Joining me now is Dr. Vin Gupta, critical care pulmonologist.

I`m glad you`re here, Dr. Gupta.

Can you start out by explaining they have paused the J&J vaccine? Tell us about the clots and how much at risk are our friends who have gotten the Johnson & Johnson in?

DR. VIN GUPTA, CRITICAL CARE PULMONOLOGIST: Good evening. Good to see you. So the clot that we`re worried about is called cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, technical terminology but a blood clot in your brain. And these six individuals that received it, one passed away. Instance where you mentioned is rare, 1 in 1 million.

Just to give some context, this event, let`s say we`re not in the pandemic and not talking about vaccine happens in about 3 to 4 cases per every 100 million cases baseline. So, this is exceptionally rare, lower than the background rate. For those of you who received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, particularly women between the ages of 20 and 50, there seems like there`s a predilection for it to happen in that cohort vaccine or not.

If you have a severe headache, if you`ve had blurry vision or lost, say, control of a limb, for example, really just a sort of symptoms out of nowhere, that`s when you want to present your clinical provider. Those are extreme symptoms associated with this clot, Joy, and that`s what should tip us off. As to how concerned we should be, the pause is necessary in part because of what Dr. Fauci said.

It`s to alert folks like myself and my colleagues that this is happening, extremely rarely but that this needs to be treated differently than the way we typically treat a blood clot. Typically, you get a blood thinner. In this case you get a different therapy. So this serves many purposes.

REID: So basically the bottom line being, people shouldn`t panic if they`ve gotten the Johnson & Johnson vaccine unless they have a severe symptom and basically now your doctor will know what to do if you do present with these symptom, right?

GUPTA: Absolutely and this is to flag people who received the vaccine that these are exceptionally rare symptoms. This is unlikely to happen to you, but you are noticing one of these, to raise their hand, call your provider, and get anticipatory care as opposed to care away.

REID: So, let`s talk about the difference, because the two vaccines that are considered mRNA vaccine, meaning the Moderna and the Pfizer, they`re not included in this. The Johnson & Johnson, the AstraZeneca, they`re a different kind of vaccine. Can you just explain the difference between the two types of vaccines?

GUPTA: Of course. So, Pfizer and Moderna of which, by the way, none of these blood clotting rare events are associated. We have no detectable evidence that this has happened with Pfizer or Moderna. Those are based on mRNA technology.

Basically a little piece of the genetic footprint of the COVID-19 virus, that gets injected into the human being and then your body uses that as a blueprint to build a key part of the virus structure, the spike protein and it builds antibodies. It`s a blueprint from genetic material that gets injected directly into your body.

The key difference here with J&J and AstraZeneca is that they use another virus as a vehicle to insert that genetic material. It`s called an adenovirus vaccine. It`s basically a transport to get the material into the cells so they can build that spike protein on which antibodies can detect the virus if you`re exposed after your fully vaccinated.

There`s a slight difference there. AstraZeneca and J&J are similar in technology to the way we usually build the flu vaccine. It`s all to say that the same type of phenomenon that is rarely seen with the AstraZeneca vaccine is now being seen with the J&J vaccine.

So joy, what`s going to happen? I suspect tomorrow evening when ACIP gathers, there might be some narrowing in terms of anticipatory guidance about who should and should receive the J&J vaccine. Who is to say, but they could potentially redirect folks potentially.

REID: And very quickly, this is the thing I worry about. It`s hard enough to talk some folks into getting vaccinated, as you know. We`ve been through this.

Do you worry this is going to make it harder? Even though the Moderna and the Pfizer -- this has nothing to do with those vaccines. What do we say to people who are saying now, see? I don`t want to get vaccinated.

GUPTA: Well, number one, Pfizer and Moderna -- you saw senior officials really lean into this. None -- Pfizer and Moderna are very effective. I think your team actually has a slide up here, two seconds to show it, what vaccines prevent.

For all of you hesitant or worried about these vaccines, they prevent progression to serious illness, hospitalization to the tune of 100 percent, including Johnson & Johnson. That`s what they prevent. (INAUDIBLE).

What I`ll say is we really need clear guidance from ACIP here, Joy, because there are going to be people here and we have to contend with that fact. So, either we redirect those who we think might be high risk for this rare complication to Pfizer, Moderna in clear terms and then message on that that this side effect doesn`t occur with Pfizer and Moderna and that`s what you saw them leaning in on.

REID: From a layperson, the bottom line is these vaccines are safe. You know what`s not safe? COVID. COVID is actually deadly. Do not get COVID. Get vaccinated so you can protect yourself.

Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you very much. Really appreciate you being here and giving us that knowledge.

And a quick programming note, Dr. Gupta is participating in a big NBC News special coming up Sunday night. It`s called "Roll Up Your Sleeves", aiming to educate viewers and dispel concerns about the COVID vaccines. President Joe Biden and former President Barack Obama will also be taking part. "Roll Up Your Sleeves" air Sunday night at 7:00 p.m. on NBC.

Do not miss it.

And when we come back, a tribute to fallen Capitol Police Officer Billy Evans who lay in honor in the Capitol rotunda today, the building where he served this country. Outside of which he was killed in the second attack on the Capitol this year.

We`ll be right back.


REID: It was day of mourning in the nation`s Capitol again today with U.S. Capitol Police Officer William "Billy" Evans lying in honor in the Capitol Rotunda, the building he was sworn to protect. The casket has since been removed in a departure ceremony that ended about an hour ago. The 18-year veteran of the Capitol Police force died earlier this month when a man rammed his car into him and another officer at the Capitol.

Among those paying their final respects, a person very familiar with loss, President Joe Biden.


JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I didn`t know Billy, but I knew Billy. I grew up with Billys. He`s still with you. He`s still in your heart. Losing a son, daughter, brother, sister, mom, dad, it`s like losing a piece of your soul. But it`s buried deep, but it comes back.


REID: Evans is the second Capitol police officer to die in the line of duty in less than three months, the first being Officer Brian Sicknick who was killed during the January 6th assault on the Capitol. Before this year, only two other Capitol police officers had ever been attacked and killed in the line of duty. Officer Evans is survived by his wife, Shannon, and his two children, Abigail and Logan. He is the only sixth private citizen in U.S. history to lie in honor in the Capitol Rotunda.


REID: That`s tonight`s REIDOUT.