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Transcript: The Rachel Maddow Show, 4/13/21

Guests: Vivek Murthy, Marquita Butler, Missy Ryan


The Biden administration announced today that the U.S. war in Afghanistan will finally come to an end. U.S. Surgeon General, Dr. Vivek Murthy is interviewed. Live coverage continues of the third night of protest in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, after killing of Daunte Wright.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That is ALL IN in on this Thursday -- Tuesday night.

"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now.

Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: It`s always Thursday somewhere. I I don`t think that is actually how it goes.


HAYES: Thank you.

MADDOW: I understand, my friend. It`s a long week already. Thank you.

And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour.

Wow, what a news day this has been. The Biden administration announcing today that the U.S. war in Afghanistan will finally come to an end. And multiple presidents have tried.

Even in the George W. Bush administration, which started that war, they said by the time that George W. Bush left office. They were trying to end it. They wanted to bring proofs home from Afghanistan back then. They sent targets for withdraw, and conditioning on the ground never improved enough to warrant hitting those targets. So the troops didn`t come home then under the president who started that war.

President Obama wanted to bring that troops home from Afghanistan as well but then he famously surged more troops into Afghanistan, to try to improve things on the ground. Because they hoped to be able to end the U.S. war there, based on improving conditions on the ground. But in the end, surprise, conditions on the ground never improved. So the troops did not come home.

Under President Trump, he often appeared confused about the Afghanistan war, often talking about the conflict as if he had ended it, as if he had brought all U.S. troops home from Afghanistan. He did not. He may have wanted to bring them home, heck with him you have to consider the possibility that he may have falsely believed he did bring them home, even though he did not.

But whatever the previous president may have thought, or said, U.S. troops did not come home from Afghanistan either.

But now, finally, President Biden is due to give a speech tomorrow, explaining that at long last, this really will be it. Starting before the end of this month, before the end of April, and ending before September 11th this year, 20th anniversary of the al Qaeda terrorist attack on our country, that led us to invade Afghanistan in the first place.

President Biden tomorrow expected to announce that this is not another one of those target dates for withdrawal, that we are aiming at. But it will depend on conditions on the ground. This instead, is actually just a date by which we will be gone, full stop.

Senior administration official previewing the president`s announcement today by saying quote, the president has judged that a conditions-based approach, which has been the approach in the past two decades, is a recipe for staying in Afghanistan forever. Officials said President Biden quote has long known that military force would not solve Afghanistan`s internal political challenges. It would not end Afghanistan`s internal conflict. And so, we are ending our military operations.

Again, we will hear more from this and President Biden directly tomorrow. But this new policy, this new decision, out completely, on or before September 11th of this year. With only enough troops left in that country to protect our embassy there.

The Biden administration is signaling that this is something different. This is not a conditions-based target. This is something that is a date certain, regardless of what happens inside Afghanistan between now and then. And it will apparently also include the 2,000-plus NATO troops that are there alongside U.S. forces as well. But they say in NATO, it`s in together out together.

When it means in this circumstance is, all coalition troops, all U.S. and NATO troops, everyone out this year. At long last, 20 years down the road.

If you know, any servicemen and women, any veterans who have served in Afghanistan, or people who have had family members serve in Afghanistan, this might be a good time to reach out, practically once the president has given his speech tomorrow. It has been a horrendous conflict there, in part, because of the surrealism of how long it has drifted and dragged on.

There are American service members who have recently deployed to that war, who were literally not yet alive when the 9/11 attacks happened, which is what the Afghanistan war was extensively all about. Finally, that is going to come to an end, for a generation of post-9/11 Afghanistan veterans in this country. It is going to be a very big deal.

So keep them in your thoughts. If you have veterans and service members, military families in your life, in your circle, who have a connection in Afghanistan war, as I say, might be time to reach out.

But as I mentioned, it will be U.S. troops and all NATO troops, out at the same time. And right now, the Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the U.S. Secretary Lloyd Austin are at an emergency meeting called by NATO. NATO summoned all the defense ministers and all the foreign ministers from their member countries to come talk about Russia amassing 80,000 Russian troops on the border of Ukraine. That`s more troops than Russia has put their since they invaded Ukraine in 2014, and took part of that country. They took Crimea and made it part of Russia instead.

We are expecting new U.S. sanctions on Russia as early as tomorrow. There was a call today between President Biden and Vladimir Putin. Putin`s government is now threatening to start force-feeding Russia`s major opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, who have a locked up in a penal colony outside Moscow.

But, again, our foreign minister and our defense minister are at that, our foreign minister, meaning our secretary of state and our defense minister, meaning our secretary of defense, are at that emergency NATO meeting right now to discuss the situation with Russia right now and what may be, what feels like, a diplomatic confrontation with Russia. That`s much more serious than anything we`ve seen in recent years. But they are there, at the time this huge announcement is about to be made, affecting us and all the NATO countries that have been fighting the Afghanistan war for these two decades, all of these things happening at once.

But again, the president speech announcing the end of the Afghanistan war, that should be tomorrow. It is expected to have a one-on-one with the president of Afghanistan the following day.

Here at home tonight, of course, all eyes are on the Minneapolis region, where last night several dozen people were arrested, in angry protests, over police killing yet another unarmed black man, 20-year-old Daunte Wright, who was pulled over in some kind of traffic stop, a police officer threatened that she was going to tase him. But then she shot him with her service pistol, and he was killed by that single gunshot to the chest.

That was Sunday afternoon. We have had two angry nights of protest and confrontation with police and some looting on the two nights since that happened.

Tonight, the police chief and the police officer involved in the shooting of Daunte Wright have both resigned in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. The city manager in the Minneapolis suburb where this has happened has also been fired by that town.

The town Brooklyn Center in Minneapolis where broadly some surrounding communities have set a curfew for tonight, just as they did last. Tonight`s will actually start later, which is interesting, well after nightfall. Tonight`s curfew starts at 10:00 p.m. local time, which is 11:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

More demonstrations are expected. Right now, "The Minneapolis Star Tribune`s" reporters on the scene are saying they at least about 1,000 people out in the street right now in Brooklyn Center, Minneapolis. Excuse me, Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, as night begins to fall.

We`ve got multiple reporters on the scene tonight. We are going to be speaking live, in just a moment, with a member of the city council, from Brooklyn Center. So, again, eyes there. You see information, protesters outside the police facility in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, after what`s been a couple of very angry nights.

Like I said, it`s been about ten days worth of news, in today`s news.

And our first guest tonight is, I`m honored to say, is our nation`s surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy. You may recall served as surgeon general in the Obama administration as well. He was there through the end of the Obama administration, and then fired by President Trump. He was brought back to reprise the role by President Biden.

He is now taking the job back up in a time of international health crisis without parallel in the modern age, with COVID epidemic raging in this country, and the COVID pandemic raging around the world.

I should tell you that Dr. Vivek Murthy takes this post with a unique personal relationship to this crisis. He has lost multiple members of his own family to COVID-19 in the past year.

But even as the Biden administration has really turned the aircraft carrier around and set a totally new pace with consistent, science-driven, not crazy, regular pronouncements from the White House, and its COVID team and the CDC about scientific developments, about vaccines, about the course of the epidemic, about measures to mitigate the course of the epidemic, even as they have taken the United States from the worst response in the industrialized world, to arguably the best, with the biggest, fastest vaccine distribution system now of any large country in the whole world, even as the Biden administration has made those strides -- today was a setback, and a controversial one.

Today, the CDC and FDA announced a pause on the administration of one of the three vaccines approved by the FDA for emergency use in this country to prevent COVID-19.

Now, the Pfizer and Moderna two-shot vaccines are not affected by this announcement at all. But the administration of one shot, Johnson & Johnson vaccine, is being stopped on a dime, because of six cases of blood clots, among women who had recently been vaccinated with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

Here to answer, hopefully, the approximately one gazillion, very detailed questions I have about this is our nation`s surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy.

Dr. Murthy, it is a real honor to have you here with us tonight. Thank you so much for taking the time on I know what has really been an intense day.

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Well, thank you so much, Rachel. It`s good to be here. And I`m looking forward to your one gazillion questions.


MADDOW: Let`s jump right in.

This is six adverse events. Six incidents in the United States after nearly 7 million doses of this vaccine were administered.

When it is such a rare, rare occurrence like that, literally, less than 1 in a million doses having -- being correlated with this adverse occurrence, how do the FDA and the CDC, how does the administration decide that something that that`s rare is nevertheless worth alerting the country, taking this dramatic step of stopping the administration of this vaccine?

MURTHY: Well, Rachel, it`s such an important question, and what it gets at the heart at, it gets to the heart of is what`s important and what`s the priority right now, and that`s safety. As you mentioned, these are six incidents out of 6.8 million people who have received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

But what was concerning about them, Rachel, is that these were serious side effects. These are rare but serious blood clots that developed. And in one case, somebody died.

And so, the CDC made a difficult but important decision with the FDA to take time in investigate it and to push pause on giving further vaccine until we can determine whether there was, in fact, a connection between the vaccine and these dangerous blood clots.

I should just mention, Rachel, this also, pausing is not uncommon. When new drugs come out, new vaccines come out, it`s actually not unusual to pause when you see a signal, to investigate it, and then to unpause, and go back to where you`re doing before, or to resume with modifications, or in some extreme cases, to stop it altogether.

But this is a reflection of how deeply we are prioritizing safety, recognizing that if people -- we want people to take this vaccine, they got to know it`s effective and it`s safe.

MADDOW: Blood clots are a thing that happens. They`re not the most rare medical complications in the world, in the normal course of things.

But am I right in understanding that in this instance, part of what was alarming, part of what was dangerous -- that was truly unusual, is that what was seen here in the six instances was a combination of the patients having blood clots and also low platelets? And that`s a strange combination that you don`t usually find.

So, it`s both unusual and also had implications for how you would treat blood clots presenting in this kind of circumstance. The kind of treatment that you would usually issue, a blood thinner that you would usually give somebody who`s facing a blood clot is something that actually shouldn`t be administered in this case. Is that right?

MURTHY: You`re exactly right, Rachel. Clots are not rare events. They happen, and they happen with significant frequency.

What is unusual about this was that these blood clots were happening at the same time as another finding, which are low platelet counts, and platelets are these cells that helped your body in the clotting process. The fact that you had clotting happening at the same time as low platelets was a warning sign. And we do see that in rare circumstances, and rare conditions, but those conditions have to be treated with the utmost of care. They often involve getting hematologists, specialists involved.

And very importantly, they are not treated with the typical blood thinners like heparin that you might a patient who comes in with a routine clot. Which brings up why this pause was instituted, Rachel. It`s not only to investigate a potential connection, but also to give us time to speak to and engage the medical community to help them understand what we were seeing, so that they can keep an eye out for similar symptoms that may indicate to us that this was happening in other patients.

MADDOW: So if somebody watching this right now has had the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, a woman between the ages of 18 and 48 had the vaccine and they are now watching for the sort of symptoms that the CDC has told people to watch for, leg pain, abdominal pain, shortness of breath, severe headache, and the advice is to go to the doctor if that, if you sort of fit the profile and you had the vaccine in this period of time, and you`ve got this -- you`ve got one of the symptoms now. What would the doctor do in that circumstance?

If I went to my GP, presumably, they would do a check to see if I also have low platelets. Would they contact a specialist immediately because this would be difficult to treat? How alarming is it if I was going to present it to this to my local hospital or my local GP if I had one of these concerns?

MURTHY: Well, it`s an important question, Rachel, and what we -- the first thing your doctor would do is evaluate the severity of your symptoms, including doing a neurological exam to see if you had any, what do we call, a neurological deficits that may be associated with a stroke.

And after doing that assessment, they would likely quickly if they were concerned, they`ll get you to a setting like a hospital where you could see a series of tests done. This would include blood tests, they would look at your platelets, you know, your platelet count, your clotting cells, and then may also involve imaging, like CAT scans or MRIs, depending on where they were concerned a clot maybe localized.

But what`s also important, Rachel, to note here is you -- is what kind of symptoms we are worried about. And I`m so glad you brought this up, because many people who received the vaccine, whether it`s Johnson & Johnson vaccine or other vaccines, will experience some flu-like symptoms for a few days after they get the vaccine. This might include fatigue, they might have a low grade fever or they might feel some chills or might fell, you know, nauseous. They may feel like they have the flu for a day or two.

We`re not worried so much about those symptoms and they sometimes include a mild headache, because those go away within a day or two, and they don`t have lasting consequences. What we are more concerned about are symptoms that include severe headaches, abdominal pain, swelling in the legs, shortness of breath, which may indicate a clot has travelled to the lungs.

These are more of the circumstances that would alarm, you know, a clinician and these are reasons why you should call your doctor if you have any of these symptoms and if you had the J&J vaccine recently.

MADDOW: Now, you mentioned the sorts of reactions that people have frequently had to the vaccines. Last week, we saw a few sites in a few different states stop administering the Johnson & Johnson vaccine temporarily when people had seemingly less scary reactions that you`re describing, things like light-headedness, dizziness.

Are -- is -- those experiences last week, with those temporary pauses in a few different locations that were administering the same vaccine, is that unrelated? Is that totally different? Have those been looked into as to whether or not those might be, might have been something serious as well?

MURTHY: Well, looking at the totality of the data around Johnson & Johnson, like all of the concerns that may have been raised, whether they are mild or whether they are major, that`s all part of the process, Rachel, that`s going to take place over the next few days.

Tomorrow, the ACIP, which is the committee, you know, the advisory committee of the CDC on immunization practices is going to be meeting and looking at the breadth of data we have available to us and they`re going to help us understand, you know, working closely with the FDA, whether there was, in fact, a broad -- you know, a link between these concerning clots and the actual vaccine administration.

But, Rachel, I think the really important thing for people to realize here who may have received the J&J vaccine or whose family members or friends who have gotten it, is that the vast, vast majority of people, the vast majority of the 6.8 million people who received the vaccine in the United States have done well.

And if you received a vaccine and you`re hearing this news and you`re wondering, hmm, am I going to be okay? The odds are, absolutely yes that you will be okay. What we are investigating are rare occurrences and we`re doing it out of an abundance of caution.

But we recognize that we want people to take this vaccine. If we want to turn this COVID pandemic around, we have to make sure that people have the right information and that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that we`re taking their safety seriously and investigating any and all possible concerns.

MADDOW: I will say as a person who received -- personally received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine within the last week who turned 48 at the same time, I felt like on the one hand, you know, you never want to take up and see a headline that says, oh, this thing that you just got turns out there might be an issue.

On the other hand, I feel a little bit of sense of relief knowing that this is a decision that was made at the FDA and the CDC based on the science because they`re being vigilant about it, because it was so rare, even though it was less than one in a million. They`re on it. They want to make sure that they`re nailing down every potential -- and any potential danger that they want to make sure that they understand.

And so, just speaking from a personal perspective, I can tell you that I`m having both feelings at once. What should we expect from that ACIP process? Obviously, the FDA is looking at this. The advisory committee for the CDC is going to be looking at this tomorrow.

What do you think we should expect in terms on of how long a review this will be? How long a pause this will be, if they decide that this is correlative and not -- and not caused by the vaccine, and that is safe to restart. How long of a process do you think that would -- that would be, beginning to end, before we know the resolution?

MURTHY: Well, Rachel, I tell you, the intention here is to do it as quickly as possible. There`s a great sense of urgency around making sure this process is expedited and that it happens fast. That`s why the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices is meeting tomorrow.

So, I would expect that this would happen under order of days, to maybe a few weeks, as opposed in the order of months or longer.

And I`ll just say, look, I`m so glad you got vaccinated, Rachel. It`s just one more person who is --

MADDOW: Me, too.

MURTHY: -- protected against COVID.

But I also think it`s so important in this moment that we not let today`s news make us lose sight of the broader progress that we`ve made. We have vaccinated so many people in our country, more than 120 million. As a result of that, particularly because we focus on vaccinating older people who are vulnerable, we have seen deaths among the elderly drop, particularly in nursing homes.

This is a preview of what we can do all across America, Rachel, if we focus on vaccinating people, getting them the right information so that they can make decisions for themselves and their families. And I know it`s tiring because, you know, we`ve been at this for more than a year, and people see news of cases ticking up, it just feel exhausted and, gosh, tell me -- I can tell you, I can relate to that.

But we are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel getting brighter and brighter. We just have to hold on a bit longer, keep wearing our masks, keep washing our hands, keep avoid indoor gatherings, and get vaccinated as soon as you possibly can. That`s the key to ending this pandemic.

MADDOW: Dr. Murthy, let me ask you one last question that`s actually not about vaccines but is about COVID and it`s about something that we`ve actually talked quite a bit here on the show, even though it hasn`t had a lot of national discussion. And that`s the issue of treatment, therapeutics for people who do get infected with COVID.

Obviously, the idea of a vaccination is that you want to prevent yourself from getting infected, but there are these monoclonal antibody treatments that if people can take them, get an infusion of these treatments before they need to be hospitalized, they`ve shown incredible effectiveness at keeping people out of the hospital.

Now, we`ve just seen this really interesting development in the last few days which is that it appears that as Michigan is having this very difficult surge right now both in cases and hospitalizations, the administration, the federal government is not surging vaccine to Michigan, which is what they`ve been asking for, but is trying to surge antibody treatment to Michigan, basically to make it more available and more easily accessible there, so that people who do get infected can get one of these infusions and stay out of the hospital.

Is that right? Is that what`s happening? Again, there isn`t a lot of attention to this, even though I`m fascinated by this part of the pandemic. And if that is happening in Michigan, should we see that as kind of a pilot project to try to increase the uptake of these very effective drugs?

MURTHY: Yeah, no, it`s a really astute point, Rachel, and I`m glad you raised it because it brings up the broader question of what is the appropriate response to a regional surge? And what we have learned from the past year, if you really want to tamp down on a surge, given the tools we have, there are several things you`ve got to do.

Number one, you want, yes, to get vaccines into arms. But getting vaccines in arms is different from getting more vaccines to a state. Because right now, we have significant inventory in many states and that`s why one of the steps we`ve been taking is actually surge people and expertise and tools to states to actually allow them to translate more of their inventory into shots in arms, and that`s part of what`s happening in Michigan.

But we are also surging therapeutics like monoclonal antibodies. We`re also surging testing, it`s really important actually during a surge, so you can both diagnose people, but also do surveillance testing.

But perhaps, Rachel, one of the most important and quick things you can do in a surge like this are the behavioral modifications, actually getting people to pull back on higher risk activities. We are seeing that, for example, as people go back into restaurants and gather indoors for family dinners, you know, with multiple households, as people get together for youth sports and have pizza afterwards, these are the activities that we find that are often facilitating spread.

And as painful as it is, that`s what we have to focus on pulling back if we want to reduce that surge, because vaccines will help in the longer term. But they take time to build an immune response in your body. And that is longer than we have, given the surges we`re seeing in Michigan.

MADDOW: Dr. Vivek Murthy, our nation`s surgeon general, a second tour of duty as the nation`s surgeon general, and we`re thank you -- we thank you for your service tonight, Doctor, and thank you for your time being here tonight. Thanks.

MURTHY: Thanks so much, Rachel. Take care.

MADDOW: You too. Thank you.

All right. Much more ahead tonight. As I mentioned, just a moment, we`re going to go live to Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. A large crowd has gathered tonight once again to protest the police killing of Daunte Wright this Sunday in that Minneapolis suburb.

We`ve got a member of the city council that`s going to be joining us. We`ve got multiple reporters on the ground.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: This was the front page of "The Minneapolis Star Tribune" today. You see the headline there: Holy, dot, dot, dot, I just shot him.

Tonight is the third straight day of protests after a police officer in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, shot and killed a 20-year-old unarmed African man named Daunte Wright. Police say the officer who shot and killed Mr. Wright shot him by mistake.

Body cam footage of the incident appears to show the officer intending to tase him. In the footage, she can be heard yelling, I`ll tase you, I`ll tase you, Taser, Taser, Taser, before she shoots him with her gun. Officers then heard her saying holy bleep, I just shot him.

That officer is now resigned from the Brooklyn Center Police Department, as has the Brooklyn Center police chief.

The county attorney assigned to review this case says charges against the officer who shot Daunte Wright could be announced as soon as tomorrow.

But as you see in these live images, protesters are once again in the streets there tonight. Remember, this is just about miles away from the courthouse hosting the trial of Minneapolis -- former Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin for the killing of George Floyd in a Minneapolis police encounter last year.

Protesters started the night with a vigil this evening for Daunte Wright, and then a rally and march through the city. Earlier tonight, they did march to the Brooklyn Center Police Department when they arrived, they were met with this chain-link fence and jersey barriers that have been erected around the police station. There are also dozens of National Guardsmen and Women who are stationed outside that building, upwards of 2,000 National Guard troops have been deployed to the Twin Cities metro area tonight.

Reporters say a group of about 500 protesters marched to a big FBI building in town after they were at the local police station. When they got to the FBI building, a caravan of honking horns, car caravan escorted the protesters around the FBI building. You can then see the snow start to pick up.

Protesters -- excuse me -- protests are ongoing at this hour. Reporters on the ground estimate that this crowd is about a thousand people. The crowd after having spent time at the FBI building today has marched back to the police station in Brooklyn Center. The city of Brooklyn Center, as well as the surrounding Twin Cities areas once again are going to be under curfew tonight. The curfew will start three hours later than it did last night. Curfew is set to begin at 10:00 p.m. local time, which is 11:00 p.m. Eastern.

Joining us now is Marquita Butler. She is a member of the Brooklyn Center City Council in Minnesota.

Councilmember Butler, thank you very much for being here. I know this is a very, very difficult time for you and for your city.

MARQUITA BUTLER, CITY COUNCILMEMBER, BROOKLYN CENTER, MN: Thank you so much for having me, Rachel. I really appreciate it, and yes, it is a very difficult time for all of us.

I would just ask, we are looking -- we`re covering this is developing story. We sort of threw out everything we were planning on doing last night in order to cover a lot of this live as it unfolded. It was very tense.

There were confrontations we are again tonight seeing pepper spray. We are seeing some flash bang grenades. We are seeing right now, these are live images. Some stuff being thrown at police and police again responding with gas.

I just have to ask if you have you have words for your community tonight, if you have anything that you want them to know from your perspective as a community leader.

BUTLER: Yeah, so, I think that a quote that I`ve been reflecting a lot on is from Dr. Martin Luther King, and he said a riot is the language of the unheard. And with this quote, I think it`s really important as leaders and as citizens that we listen and respond appropriately.

We know that our community is hurting. We know that safety for everyone is of the utmost importance. We do want to allow everyone that wants to protest peacefully to be able to express themselves and be able to grieve, but we do want to keep everybody safe.

MADDOW: Can you tell us about the decision made by the city council to fire the city manager? Obviously, that seems like sort of a bureaucratic thing but it`s quite an operationally important thing here in terms of municipal employees and the police department answering to that city manager. Why did you and your colleague colleagues on the city council decide to -- that the city manager should no longer be in that job?

BUTLER: Quite simply, the council lost confidence and the ability for the city manager to execute his duties. We felt like they could no longer -- we felt that he could no longer deliver what the community needed during this volatile time.

MADDOW: Do you feel like the mayor of your city, your fellow councilmembers, the treatment that you`ve had from the governor and from state agencies, do you feel like things are being handled properly in Brooklyn Center in the wake of what`s happened and given the increasing anger in the streets? Are there are there things that you that you`d like to ask for from the state in terms of the way this is being handled or from local officials?

BUTLER: Yeah. I think that you know we`re all -- this is not something that we`re we`ve experienced before as leaders here in Brooklyn Center. Yes, of course, we have experiences as a community not that long ago. But in terms of us being leaders and operating in the space, you know, we`re doing the very best that we can.

I do have confidence that we`ll continue to lead the community in the best way we`re able to and tapping into people that have gone through this, being able to rely on that their advice. I -- what I have seen that I don`t like are the rubber bullets, the tear gas, and I think, you know, working with the governor and the state police, the troopers and everyone that in the military that are present, to see how we can come to resolution to keep everybody safe but also for those that are not engaging in violence to be able to do -- to be able to continue to protest and not be harmed.

MADDOW: Marquita Butler, a member of the Brooklyn Center City Council -- sorry, carry on, I didn`t mean to interrupt you there.

BUTLER: No, it`s fine I was just saying as community leaders, we have to continue to work with our governor and the leaders in Minnesota in general to come to a resolution on how we can keep everybody safe.

MADDOW: Marquita Butler, a city councilmember in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, we are looking at live images here on the screen here from Brooklyn Center tonight -- Ms. Butler, thank you very much. I know -- I know it`s going to be another difficult and long night.

Keep us apprise. Come back to us if you think there`s more that the country needs to know about what`s happening in your community tonight. All eyes are on you and lots of people`s thoughts and prayers are with -- are with Brooklyn Center tonight.

BUTLER: Thank you so much.

MADDOW: Again, what you are seeing here is -- these are live images. You see a lot of press there. You also see a lot of protesters there, and then on the right side of your screen, we see police and perhaps National Guardsmen defending what has been set up effectively as perimeter around the police station in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota.

Brooklyn Center is a suburb of Minneapolis. It`s about miles from the courthouse where the Derek Chauvin trial is been -- has been underway for the past two and a half weeks. He`s, of course, on trial for the death of George Floyd who died under a police officer`s knee, in the street in Minneapolis.

It is hard to extricate these two story lines, the killing of Daunte Wright and the killing of George Floyd, not just because of the geography here, but because of the continuous -- the continuation of anger and outrage and grief over these two men`s deaths, these two black men dying and at the hands of white police officers in the Minneapolis area.

Again, this appears to still be a growing crowd we`ve got reporters on the scene who are watching this. There were a few dozen arrests last night. There were also a few stores that were looted, although it was not described as large-scale looting. But we are expecting this to proceed over the course of the evening and then it`s an open question as to what will happen when the curfew is instituted.

But local authorities made an interesting decision tonight to push the curfew back three hours later than it was last night. Obviously, one of the points of contention once we saw protests after dark last night was police telling protesters that they were out in violation of the curfew and they must clear the streets. Protesters quite blatantly ignored that.

It`s possible that the thinking tonight is that by pushing the curfew back to 10:00 p.m. local time, 11:00 p.m. Eastern Time, that it might be a more enforceable curfew since people will have been out and had the opportunity to protest at that point and maybe more amenable to respecting the curfew, or following it as an order if it`s brought down -- if that curtain is brought down later in the evening.

Again, we`ll keep watching the scene. We`ll be back with more live coverage right after this. Stay with us.


MADDOW: I told you we`ll be keeping an eye tonight on Brooklyn Center, Minnesota and we are. Just within the last few minutes, law enforcement on the scene of an increasingly large protest there in the streets outside police headquarters, law enforcement has given a bullhorn warning that the protest is an unlawful assembly and has given the protesters minutes to disperse.

Joining us now from that scene is MSNBC correspondent, Cal Perry.

Cal, thank you so much for being with us. I know you are right in the thick of it. What can you tell us about what you`re seeing?

CAL PERRY, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So the escalation in just the past five minutes is protesters have thrown these smoke grenades, and I`ll let mark get in -- smoke grenades into the line of police officers. What you`re hearing coming back is pepper spray shot in these little pellets and then you`re going to hear these very large flash banger days that everybody now is accustomed to hearing, actually firing it from the roof basically attach these little bottle rockets.

It`s gotten bad in the last minutes because you said there was about a thousand people, I think it`s more like 500, it`s thinned out just since you said it as these flash bangs went off, and the sort of 500 people that remain are very dedicated to having a confrontation with the police. This is a very frustrating crowd obviously, and, Mark, if you could see the -- I want to show Rachel, I want to show the umbrellas. There`s a line of protesters that have their umbrellas open fanned at the police, they`re just about 15 feet past the barricades. It is that line of protesters that is throwing the bottles, throwing things at the police and they rush forward.

They sort of hit that fence hard, Rachel, and then they`re pushed back and it`s been this back and forth, and I`m not sure it`ll last until curfew. I think police will probably try to get it cleared before then, Rachel.

MADDOW: And, Cal, when you say that people are throwing something that seems like smoke grenades, you`re talking about things being thrown from the protest side at the police?

PERRY: Yes, and it looked like a packet of like those M80 fireworks that you may have played with as a kid that put off the smoke. It wasn`t like a professional smoke grenade that you would see from law enforcement, it was a firework type thing and you can see now the sheriff`s office is firing these flash bangs. And you can probably see these bottles of water. It`s the bottles of water that the police are not going to put up with.

The projectiles, once they really start going, that`s when the police are going to start pushing back and they`ll probably use that pepper spray and more of that that tear gas, Rachel.

MADDOW: And, Cal, are they -- are the police making audible announcements in terms of what they want people to do? Are they kettling protesters? Are they pushing back the perimeter? What are their -- what are police tactics as we can see all these projectiles being aimed at them right now?

PERRY: So the police are staying within this barricade so far tonight. Last night, they pushed out into the street and then about a half mile down this road and they push protesters all the way back to again a series of like gas stations about a half a mile away.

But right now, they`re inside these barricades and what they`re doing is they`re slowly ratcheting up the verbal warning. So, 30 minutes ago, it was a curfew reminder. Fifteen minutes ago, it was a curfew reminder, 10 minutes ago, that`s when we heard that this is an unlawful assembly and they make the announcement very clear in these situations.

I`m just going to make sure we`re okay here, we`re fine here. They make these announcements very clear you are now part of an unlawful assembly, we can and will arrest you. You need to disperse right away.

After they give that announcement, it`s sort of a sign I think to the folks who are not dedicated to being pepper sprayed or taking some kind of projectile possibly or facing off the police, to get out of the area and that`s when I think we saw about half the crowd leave we went down from about a thousand to I would say four or five hundred people, Rachel.

MADDOW: And, Cal, you mentioned you just checked to make sure that you and your crew are okay. Are people being hostile to you? We saw some not particularly dangerous, but some angry confrontations last night with people not happy that the press was there covering it? How have people been toward you and your crew and other journalists there?

PERRY: Tonight, they`ve been okay. I was sort of expecting to be harangued and harassed a little bit more tonight and I certainly hope that won`t happen. The frustration tonight is directed solely at the police.

The police have sent out somebody from the sheriff`s office who is now waving forward this -- this APC, this armored personnel carrier. I don`t really know how else to describe it. There`s certainly a name for it, but this armored personnel carrier now coming through this gate is a sign that things are going to deteriorate quickly.

And you can see protesters are again just throwing these bottles at police and they haven`t let up at all. And throughout this, and you probably can`t see are these little pepper spray rounds that police fire from a sort of plastic rifle. I mean, they`re firing it into the crowd and it`s not making any difference, Rachel.

MADDOW: So this is like a SWAT vehicle or an MRAP, some sort of up armored vehicle and it looks like the police are massing behind it. Can you tell if this is National Guard or police that are it looked like it was sheriff markings on that on that vehicle, Cal?

PERRY: Yeah. Sheriff markings right behind.

Mark, you want to show the officers falling in behind the vehicle. They`re sheriff`s officers you can see the shields. They`re clearly marked sheriffs. The National Guard soldiers seem to be back a couple of rows and I don`t think that they`re going to come out. I`ll certainly keep an eye on it.

They usually fall into this support role. This past year, this country has a pretty bad history of National Guard getting involved on the streets. We saw things get out of control in Louisville. And so, for that reason, I think the National Guard sort of deploys well in the rear and they want the sheriff`s office and really the local police.

In this case, it`s going to be the sheriff`s office because this is now reaching beyond what local police could handle. Again, you can see it this APC is just sort of this armored vehicle is just sort of staged here at this gate.

The thing the two lines that protesters seem to have crossed at least for law enforcement traditionally tonight were the bottles which again are continuing and now they`re punching sort of holes in the side of soda cans and throwing them so they then spin, and the second one was pushing and trying to break down the fence.

Anytime protesters try to break down the barricades around a police facility that`s usually a line, Rachel.

MADDOW: Cal Perry, on the ground for us in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, you and your crew stay safe and get back with us if there`s more you need to report to us. We will keep eyes on your shot, Cal.

I want to bring into the conversation now, NBC news national reporter Deon Hampton who is also in Brooklyn Center tonight.

Dion, what can you tell us about your vantage point and what you`re able to see.

DEON HAMPTON, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: Well, Rachel, thanks for having me on.

From what I see I see a juggling high crowd. I`m going to take you this way. And this way, you know my colleague earlier mentioned that there was about 500 people that was left that were demonstrated. But here, you have very peaceful proud, people who were praying, people who were telling the other the other protesters not to become violent.

And so over here, you have people, hands up, don`t shoot, you have one bullhorn, and you have people who are saying, we don`t want any violence.

Now, if you if we pan the camera this way and we go towards this way about maybe 75 yards down the street, it`s a completely different crowd. This crowd is provoking the police. This crowd is agitating the police, and again, they`re very just opposed to what`s going on here.

So the police have been saying that they want the crowds to stop being unruly and you have the protesters down there who were throwing the water bottles and the other debris and the arms understand that again that is unlawful.

So, captain has come on and I`ve given people 15 minutes to leave the premises before they start to come out. But this happens a lot with these protests that all of sudden (INAUDIBLE) is very peaceful, Rachel, during the daytime. But then at nighttime, as the crowd goes down, you have a lot of divers who become much more active and they get a lot more courageous, and that`s when you start to get the commotion between the protesters and the police.

MADDOW: Deon Hampton for us live from Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. Deon, thank you and thank you for giving us that context so we can understand the different types of protests going on simultaneously. Remarkable shot there.

With Deon with a peaceful and mostly silent protest except for one person speaking into a bull horn. Those protesters also being warned calmly, those calm protesters being warned by a police captain as Deon described it, that they must disperse.

But as you can see when he got his camera pan down the street, it`s only about 75 yards from what is a much more chaotic and confrontational scene here at police headquarters in Brooklyn Center, Minnesota, where we have a lot of projectiles going beyond that perimeter fence. We`ve got the sheriff`s department based on the markings on the side of the vehicle and that up-armored vehicle with what appeared to be sheriff`s personnel masks behind them obviously kitted out for riot duty.

We`ve seen the use of pepper spray, a considerable amount of pepper spray, fireworks, projectiles, bottles thrown, very angry scene. Just down -- just down the street from that more peaceful, calm, but still angry protest just yards away.

Remarkable scene today as the story continues to develop Brooklyn Center, Minnesota. We will stay with it. We`ll be right back after this.


MADDOW: As we reported at the top of the hour tonight, there is going to be some very long awaited history made tomorrow. President Biden expected to announce for the White House that all U.S. troops will be withdrawn from Afghanistan by September 11th of this year, 20 years after the U.S. first invaded.

Joining us now is "Washington Post" national security and Pentagon reporter, Missy Ryan, who is first to break the news of Biden`s withdrawal plan today.

Ms. Ryan, thank you so much for being with us tonight. And thanks for your reporting on this.


MADDOW: Why now? Why is the president making this decision now?

RYAN: The Biden administration was facing a May 1 deadline under a deal that was negotiated by the Trump administration to withdraw all U.S. troops from Afghanistan and so they faced this quandary coming into office, have three months to figure out whether or not they try to comply with the deal, pull out all American forces in the middle of an ongoing piece negotiating process or whether they stay beyond that deadline.

And what Biden a denounced which was not a huge surprise today was that they are going to stay an extra four months, and they will bring all troops home by September 11th which is the 20th anniversary of the attacks of 9/11.

And, you know, it`s really a moment where the Biden administration is trying to pivot American foreign policy and engagement with the world. We`ve had these two decades of counter-terrorism and counter insurgency wars and now they`re really are looking to engage more, focus more on competition with China, with Russia, on global health and climate change, and they are hoping that ending the war in Afghanistan will allow them to do this.

MADDOW: I feel like people who are hearing this news, and even hearing you talk about it right now maybe having a sense of deja vu because so many previous presidents have talked about ending the war in Afghanistan. In this case, it is sort of a qualitatively different decision though, isn`t it?

This is -- as the administration made clear, today and as you make clear in your reporting, this is not a conditions based thing. This is not a target date, if X happens then we`d like to leave by why. This is a date certain no matter what is happening on the ground. It is a final decision.

Is that fair?

RYAN: It is fair. At least, as you suggest those of us who would be covering Afghanistan for a long time there have been so many reversals and twisted turns but as it stands right now, and I think it is reasonable to expect that they will fulfill its commitment to go down to close to zero by September, there will be some sort of small military presence to secure the embassy in Afghanistan. But it`s important to remember that we are all ready at the lowest level, about 2,500 to 3,500 troops right now already at the lowest level that the United States have had in Afghanistan since the early days of the war.

And you know at the height of President Obama`s surge, it was around 100,000 troops. So it really is a very different moment and I think the big question right now will be what occurs in the aftermath of the American departure, what occurs with the peace process that everyone hopes will result in some sort of sustainable peace and a new traditional government in Afghanistan, some sort of stable governing arrangement.

And what happens with the Taliban. Will they try to press their military advantage and really go forward and try to take over Kabul, which is sort of their worst case scenario that some of the critics have been talking about today.

MADDOW: "Washington Post" national security and Pentagon reporter, Missy Ryan, who again broke the news today about the president`s expected public announcement tomorrow that the war in Afghanistan will finally end. The U.S. troops will be gone by September 11th of this year. Missy, thank you so much for being with us, I really appreciate it.

Again, and keep in mind that as big of a news that as this, and I know that Afghanistan and some people particularly Afghan war veterans sometimes call it forgot-istan, is something that has stayed off the radar for a long time given that it has been an ongoing U.S. war for 20 years. But for American veterans, military families who have served since 9/11, the end of this war is a really big deal, and particularly people who have served in that conflict over the past 20 years, it ending in U.S. troops leaving full stop.

The only troops that will be left behind is those who protect the embassy. It is something that has been more than long-awaited and it`s an historic moment. I`m looking forward to seeing the president`s remarks on it tomorrow.

All right. That will do it for us for now. See you again tomorrow night.


Good evening, Lawrence.