Summary:
CDC Director Rochelle Walensky is interviewed. Republican lawmakers
in Georgia were gearing up to pass a sweeping voter suppression bill that`s
being called the most restrictive voter law since Jim Crow.
Transcript:
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That`s "ALL IN" on this Monday night.
"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you, my friend. Much
appreciate it.
And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Happy Monday.
This weekend, the great state of New Hampshire got 11,000ish doses of the
one-shot, one-dose Johnson and Johnson vaccine for COVID. And they decided
to use it all instantly in one big mass vaccination blast.
And they targeted an interesting group of people. Everybody eligible for
the vaccine in New Hampshire who had already signed up to get a vaccine but
had been put at the end of line, they`ve been told that hey couldn`t get
their shot until April or May. The state called all those people in the
state. Everybody who had late appointments and said, we know you`re
interested in getting a vaccine, how about this weekend instead?
And in one weekend, they did a drive-thru mass vaccination clinic for more
than 11,000 people. And they did at the New Hampshire Motor Speedway, the
NASCAR track, which is a place that my brother-in-law Paul is intimately
familiar with.
My brother-in-law loves NASCR. Loves it. He loves all kinds of car racing,
everything from Formula One to drag racing to like motorcycle stuff and
everything, but mostly, he loves NASCAR.
And I am absolutely convinced that that is why my brother-in-law Paul is
now vaccinated against COVID-19. He heard that they were doing this at the
racetrack and he was like, oh, it`s a racetrack? And so, yeah, the answer
from him was yes please. I will get up early and go get my vaccine there.
And the big news in our family is because Paul decided he was going -- drum
roll, please -- Susan`s mom agreed that she would go too. She would go with
Paul.
Susan`s mom is in her 90s. She has a bull`s eye on her terms in
vulnerability to this virus if she ever got it. We`ve been calling and
calling and calling, and calling, and we were seriously stressed about the
fact that she did not have an appointment to get vaccinated until well into
April.
But then she got the call that she could come this weekend instead because
of the Johnson & Johnson shipment to New Hampshire. And so, Susan`s mom, my
brother in law, they went together. She and Paul both stuck their arms out
the car window and now, they`re done. One shot, done and dusted.
Eleven thousand-plus New Hampshire residents fully vaccinated in one
weekend at the NASCAR track, all with the one-dose vaccine. They`re all
done.
And that is just one little snapshot of one little corner of the country
that happened to intersect with my family and some of my greatest family
COVID concerns.
But something has clearly ticked over for us as a country. I mean, you`ll
remember here last week on the show, we reported that the U.S. had finally
hit a really big benchmark. The U.S. had finally hit two million vaccine
shots administered in a single day. We talked about that in the show last
week. We hit that 2 million shots in a day record for the first time last
week.
But then this weekend, on Saturday, we as a country shattered that record.
We just hit 2 million last week. Saturday, we hit 2.9 million shots in one
day. Absolutely fantastic. And that was on the day the Senate passed the
COVID relief bill as well.
So, we get this $1.9 trillion relief bill and we get 2.9 million vaccine
doses all administered that day. That`s a great day. That is -- that is
more where we need to be.
And, you know, numbers can be alienating. Particularly, big numbers can be
alienating. But, man, does this have a personal affect on people?
If you have been vaccinated, I haven`t yet been vaccinated. I will as soon
as it`s my turn. But if you have been vaccinated, if the people in your
family who you are most worried about have been vaccinated, you know how it
feels when they finally got their shots, right? I mean, it`s like you
didn`t know what that stress had been doing to you until it`s lifted.
I mean, for me and Susan, I know that Susan`s mom is one who got the
vaccine this weekend, but Susan and I were so happy and so elated by it. We
felt like we were the ones who were on drugs. I mean, it`s just -- it`s
such a relief when somebody who you`re very worried about, somebody who you
love and you know is in danger gets that protection, it is such a relief.
It`s just this very unfamiliar feeling of hope.
And one thing that`s nice is that you can also see the effects of that in
health care workers, in the doctors and nurses who are signing up for
vaccination duty to give people their shots, whether it is just the hours
that they are doing shots at particular health care facility or it is one
of these mass vaccination clinics. They are psyched. They are so happy to
be able to do it.
I mean, after a year of catastrophe for health workers and, you know,
irresolvable, retractable illness and menace to themselves and so much
death, here is something that they are now doing that just unequivocally
good that people cry happily about when they finally get to their place in
front of the line.
Today, the Centers for Disease Control put out guidelines -- we expected
these maybe late last week but they came out today -- advising people who
have been fully vaccinated what they can do now that they couldn`t do
before. Among other things, if you can get vaccinated and the people you
want to hang out with can also get vaccinated, you really can hang out with
them together, at home, without masks and without social distance.
Small groups of fully vaccinated people can be together in the home without
taking COVID precautions, that means without taking masks. I mean, if
everybody is fully vaccinated, that means yes to a poker foursome, mom and
dad. That means yes to a hug.
I mean, still, they`re saying no in terms of unnecessary travel. So,
getting vaccinated doesn`t mean you can hop onto next flight to the place
you most missed visiting. CDC also says no change as well for vaccinated
people in terms of still needing to wear a mask and do social distancing
when you are out in public. But some things in your life will start to open
up.
And let`s talk about that. Let`s talk about that and much more with the
director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC director,
Dr. Rochelle Walensky, who`s here tonight for "The Interview".
Dr. Walensky, it`s real privilege to have you here. Thank you so much for
taking the time.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: Thanks for having me. Always great to
be with you.
MADDOW: So, roughly 20 percent-ish of the country has at least one dose of
the vaccine. Just under 10 percent of the country is fully vaccinated now.
Tell me about the bottom line of import of CDC`s new guidelines about how
life can change for people who are fully vaccinated.
WALENSKY: First, I just want to indicate the stories that you just told
are the inspiring stories we`re hearing every day. We`re up to nearly 3
million people vaccinated a day and we`re really -- we have more and more
supply of vaccine coming and we really just want to encourage people to
roll up their sleeves and get vaccinated when it`s your turn.
As you indicated, we`re nearly 10 percent of the population vaccinated, but
that also means we have 90 percent of people who are not yet protected. And
so, we intend to take baby steps to make sure that people have hope, people
who are vaccinated can be back with their loved ones in their -- in their
homes and the privacy of their homes, while still being cautious because,
in fact, 90 percent of the population is not quite there yet.
MADDOW: In terms of the sort of how far the guidance went today for what
people are vaccinated can do and what ways they still need to be cautious,
talk to me a little bit about the travel decision because it seems to me,
if fully vaccinated people are protected from becoming seriously ill
themselves, they are protected in -- to a very large, from getting sick
enough that they potentially could die from COVID. But there`s still a
slight chance that they could infected with mild or asymptomatic infection.
There`s a slight chance that maybe they can pass it onto somebody else.
That understanding about what vaccines do -- how does that map on the
guidance that people shouldn`t travel? I think I expected today when this
guidance came out that vaccinated people would be told it`s OK to fly.
WALENSKY: So, this is the first initial step of our guidance. And we do
need to -- we will need to and will update the guidance as more as more
people get vaccinated. We`ll update as if we information about how the
dynamics of his disease are changing through the country over time.
And as we have more emerging evidence, here`s what we know about travel. We
know that right now, there are a lot of variants here in this country. Some
have brought in from travel. Others have emanated from inside the country.
We know that after mass travel, after vacations, after holidays, we tend to
see a surge in cases. And so, we really want to make sure again with just
10 percent of people vaccinated that we are limiting travel. We`re avoiding
the upcoming surge just as we`re trying to get more and more people
vaccinated.
MADDOW: When you said that this today at the White House, when you said
this was initial guidance and that you did expect that this may evolve,
this may change over time, what you just reiterated here -- what is the
data that we`re waiting for in terms of how this -- how this -- how advice
to, again, vaccinated people may change? Is it that we don`t necessarily
know how the variants will behave in various populations? Is it that we
don`t know enough yet about whether or not vaccines protect people from
actually getting the virus and being able to transmit to others even if it
doesn`t make you, yourself, sick?
WALENSKY: That`s exactly right. So, we know from the clinical trials that
people who are vaccinated do not get severe disease. They don`t get
hospitalized. They don`t die.
We don`t know that they don`t get disease at all, these breakthrough
infections. And, in fact, when we have seen data from other countries,
emerging data from Israel, we see that people can get infected once they`ve
been vaccinated. And when they do, they tend to have a lower amount of
virus. So, breakthrough infections, you tend to have a lower amount of
virus than people who are unvaccinated.
Even so, those asymptomatic vaccinated people with a low amount of virus
might still be able to give disease to somebody else. And that`s really
what we want to be able to see is, is that possible? Can they still
transmit disease because that does have implications for who they might be
unmasked with and whether they are at high risk for disease?
And then the other point is exactly as you said, the more virus that`s
circulating, the more variants that are possible, and those variants can
emerge and diminish the effect of the vaccine. So, while we`re vaccinating
people, we really do want to make sure that there`s less and less virus
circulating that doesn`t put our vaccine efficacy at risk.
MADDOW: And so, I feel like when -- especially those of us who aren`t
health care professionals, those of us who aren`t doctors talk about the
vaccine and the variants, a lot of what we talk about is whether or not the
variant strains are susceptible to the vaccine or whether or not they`re
going to defeat the vaccine in some way. But it sounds like we should be
thinking about it the other way too, that we need to vaccinate as many
people as fast as possible as -- really as suddenly as possible. We need --
we need a mass vaccination rate in part to prevent the emergence and
circulation of the variance -- of the variants, is that fair?
WALENSKY: You are exactly right. So, we know that mutation -- that RNA
viruses mutate and they mutate the more virus you have. So, the more virus
that is out there and replicating in an individual person and in all of the
society, the more likely that variants are going to emerge which is why we
really want to keep the case numbers down. We really want the keep the
amount of virus down. That will keep the amount of mutations down.
And as we do that, those mutations won`t emerge that put the risk of
efficacy of our vaccines.
MADDOW: So, that makes clear what we`re in is race. That it`s the virus,
and specifically the mutating virus, that we are racing against with our
vaccination efforts. That makes me happy that we are speeding up our
vaccination efforts, that we hit 2 million, then 2.9 million and hoping --
hoping we`re still going to increase that pace.
Dr. Ashish Jha from Brown University said last hour on MSNBC that he`s
hoping that we can get up to 4 million doses a day.
How fast do we need to go on our side of the race in order to out pace the
mutation -- the mutating virus?
Dr. Michael Osterholm has a terrifying interview out with "New York
Magazine" right now in which he says that we`re losing the race. He`s
predicting another big surge over the new few months, saying that the
variants are transmitting fast enough, that our pace of vaccination right
now isn`t enough to stave off another big surge.
What -- how fast do we need to be going? What are you aiming at in terms of
how fast our vaccination efforts need to get?
WALENSKY: I think we need to understand that March and April are critical
periods here. We have variants in this country. Those variants are
increasingly transmissible. We know that they are more transmissible than
the wild type virus.
We also have more and more vaccine coming. And this is really why we have
said for the next couple of months, while we are scaling up vaccination as
much as we can, as fast as we can, as much vaccine as we can, please, wear
your mask, continue with the mitigation strategies and give us a fighting
chance of making sure we can get vaccine into possible as soon as possible.
And as individuals, when that vaccine is available to you, you roll up your
sleeve and get it so that we can really be sure that we are winning this
race.
MADDOW: I will say, just on psychological level, something uncomfortable
and annoying like mask wearing is easier, at least for me, to do. It`s
easier for me to take as a public health imperative and as a sort of good
citizen request if I know that I don`t have to do it forever.
Being told, like, listen, these next couple of months are critical, we can
get there. The end is, at least, reasonably in sight provided that we can
push through and finish strong, I feel like that`s actually quite
motivating, that people who may be tired of it ought to at least feel like
we`re doing it for a reason and we can get to a place where a lot of these
measures can be relaxed safely because we go a low enough amount of virus
circulating and high enough level of immunity that we`re okay.
WALENSKY: I think you`re exactly right. And I would say, you know, today
to me was a really hopeful day. Yes, it was baby steps. But people can
finally start seeing what a life without mask might look like. People -- I
can`t tell you how many people texted me on my cell phone while I was
giving the press conference to say you mean I can go see my mom again.
Those baby steps matter a lot. We can spend time with our loved ones again.
MADDOW: Now, at the same time, last week, CDC released an MMWR that said,
among other things, that mask mandates are associated with decreased
transmission and decreased deaths from COVID. It was essentially a fairly
definitive result. And then we get the news out of Texas and out of
Mississippi and out of now Wyoming. They are dropping their mask mandates
anyway, just at the time that you`re saying is sort of a crucial, finish
strong last couple of months. They`re dropping not only mask mandates, but
also almost all, in some cases -- in Texas, all the business restrictions
designed to limit the transmission.
Did these states consult with CDC at all before they made these decisions?
WALENSKY: I was not aware of any consulting they did with us specifically
on these decisions.
What I will say is every state, every governor has to make these decisions.
I think our guidance has been pretty clear. I think science has been pretty
clear. We are asking people to wear masks.
And, in fact, I have said before and I`ll say again, I do not wear mask
because my governor tells me I need to wear a mask. I wear masks because it
protects me, it protects my loved ones, it protects my community, and
because I want to be out of this.
MADDOW: Uh-huh.
Let me ask you about a policy thing that I can sort of see coming or
anticipating is coming that is going to potentially be an interesting
either point of conflict or opportunity here depending on how you look at
it.
If OSHA -- which was sleepwalking, forgive me, for much of the Trump
administration on COVID, in particular -- if OSHA comes out with rules that
say workplaces need to protect their employees by requiring masks from
everybody on the premises. I can`t -- I don`t know that OSHA is going to do
that. I can definitely anticipate that as a possibility from this it ration
of OSHA at this time of the pandemic.
If that happened, would that effectively create a sort of federal mask
mandate at all workplaces, I mean, regardless of what`s happening in
individual states? If OSHA is requiring that for all workplaces, that would
mean all restaurants, all bars, anywhere anyone works, wouldn`t it?
WALENSKY: Yeah. I mean, I think we`re going to have to take this based on
where we are at a given period of time. I think we need to be wearing masks
right now. I think it`s the right thing to do to protect the public, to
protect one another as we have more and more people vaccinated, as
vaccinations become -- you know, vaccines become available all around the
country for anybody who wants it. I think the calculus in that is all of
this and who should be wearing masks and when will change, and I really
look forward to the day we get to make those decisions because so many
people are vaccinated.
MADDOW: The last time you were here, Dr. Walensky, we talked about
teachers and CDC guidance about reopening schools safely, concerns among
people -- adults who work at schools whether it`s teachers, school
staffers, janitors, counselors, you know, school bus drivers that whatever
the CDC guidance is about how to safely reopen schools, they were concerned
about not being vaccinated before that happened.
So, Dr. Kessler -- Dr. David Kessler was here on the show last week and
said starting this week, March 8th, teachers and school staffers and school
bus drivers and janitors and child care workers would all be eligible for
vaccines no matter their comorbidities. And we saw this with this directive
go out from HHS telling all states, whatever else is going on in terms of
your eligibility rules in the states, by the end of March, we expect
everybody who works in a school to have one dose of a vaccine.
I just wanted to ask you, if this is live and active? If you think it is
plausible that everybody who works in the school can get at least one dose
by the end of March? Are you on track to make that happen?
WALENSKY: I`m really enthusiastic about this. The Advisory Committee on
Immunization Practices has said since -- before I came into the
administration, that teachers and educators and child care workers as front
line workers should be vaccinated in 1B. That is with people who are over
the age of 75.
They`re now 9,000 pharmacies in the federal pharmacy program that are
distributing around two million doses of vaccine a week. Yes, I believe
that we can do this. We have about five to seven million educators that we
need to vaccinate and about 36 states we`re already doing this before this
program. So, yes, I believe this is doable.
MADDOW: So, newly in states where teachers and school staffers -- and
again, I stress this includes school bus drivers and people working in the
cafeteria, everybody who is a school staffer in any way, if you -- you`re
talking to people right now who are in states where they weren`t previously
eligible, they are now -- regardless of age or any comorbidities -- do they
need to go through this CDC`s Federal Pharmacy Program explainer in order
to do this? Do they still contact their state normally as if they`re just a
newly eligible group in their state even if they weren`t before -- before
this month?
WALENSKY: You know, that`s going to be state by state situation. So, I
can`t speak on generalities.
What I can say is that these -- through the Federal Pharmacy Programs,
teachers and educators should be able to access vaccine at every state.
It`s a high bar. We`re trying to reach a lot of people in 28 days or 22
days.
But we are -- we are motivated. We have, you know, all hands on deck. We
have tool kits to try to ensure that teachers can have access. We have
stakeholders, everybody involved to go full court press to try to make this
happen by the end of the month.
MADDOW: Because the Trump administration didn`t publish reliable COVID
data, other people tried to pick up the slack. Groups like the COVID
Tracking Project which did phenomenal public facing work, throughout the
pandemic. They closed up shop yesterday I think in part in the expectation
that you`re going to be able to pick up the slack and that once again, CDC
will become the authoritative, definitive source of data about the
epidemic, not just for practitioners and experts, but also for the general
public, because so many of us want to be tracking these things day-to-day.
I mean, to be frank, as of right now, none of that information,
hospitalization numbers, new case numbers, death numbers, vaccination
numbers, none of that information is easy to find or well-presented on the
CDC`s website right now, even as other people who are good in this space
are leaving so that you can take up that room.
What are the plans that you`ve got to improve that, so the general public
can go to CDC again to get the best data on this pandemic?
WALENSKY: You know, data monitorization has been a huge effort with the
CDC. This is something we are actively working on. We are relying on data
from all states and territories and tribes to compile all those data. The
infrastructure and data was really thin, has been pretty frail for the last
many years, not just because of -- not just during COVID.
And so, we`re actively working to ensure that we have more electronic case
reporting, more laboratory reporting and more reporting from all of these
states. It`s an active area of work. And I really -- I`m looking forward to
resources from the American Rescue Plan to help facilitate that.
MADDOW: Interesting.
Are there other things that are going to be newly possible for CDC because
of the COVID relief bill, because of the American Rescue Plan that haven`t
been possible until now? Obviously, there`s a big chunk of this plan that
is -- of this bill that is targeted to try to improve the COVID response,
and not just rolling out vaccine, but everything else.
What`s in that bill that`s going to make your job easier and make the CDC
more capable?
WALENSKY: There`s so many component offense that bill from vaccine roll
out, vaccine education, engagement, testing. There are many things that are
components of the American Rescue Plan that we will deeply rely on in the
months and year ahead.
I will say that the public health infrastructure of this country has really
suffered over the last decade, 56,000 jobs have been lost in public health
in the last decade, 180 in this last year alone. If we are going to build a
public health infrastructure that is able to tackle issues such as H1N1,
influenza, Ebola, Zika, we`ve all seen them in the last year as the public
health infrastructure has been frail and COVID-19.
We need a public health infrastructure. We need resources to pay for the
workforce. We need laboratories. We need epidemiologist.
And all of that is -- I`m looking forward to and data monitorization as you
noted. All of that I`m looking forward to in the years ahead.
MADDOW: One last question for you, Dr. Walensky. For all the progress that
we have made, we are still up nearly 60,000 new infections per day. I was
interested to see Dr. Fauci briefed today at the White House on anti --
progress in antivirals and experimental antivirals.
How close do you think we are to effective antiviral treatment so that
people who do get infected -- again, still tens of thousands of Americans
getting infected still every day now -- how close are we to something that
will a cure for people who do get infected, who do get sick?
WALENSKY: I think we shouldn`t lose sight of the fact we made
extraordinary progress in 14 months with this disease. We have three
vaccines that are safe, effective. They have been proven in clinical
trials.
We have more work to do in therapeutics, new investigational drugs that Dr.
Fauci talked about today.
This virus is going to be with us for some period of time and I think we`re
going to have some period of time to start working on further antivirals.
We have them for inpatients. We have them at our IV. We need more potent
therapies.
MADDOW: Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of our nation`s CDC -- Dr.
Walensky, it is really an honor to have you here tonight. Thank you very
much for making the time. I don`t know you don`t have to do it and we`re
really appreciative that you can do -- that you do when you can.
WALENSKY: Thank you so much for having me.
MADDOW: All right. Good luck.
Much more to get to here tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: So, I just spoke with Dr. Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC,
to talk about, among other things, these new guidelines for Americans who
have been fully vaccinated, including the rules for travel for anybody
who`s had the vaccine. As of right now, travel restrictions are not
changing for people who are fully vaccinated, which is interesting.
Dr. Walensky talking about the expectation that guidance will evolve as we
come to understand not only the effect of the vaccines, whether or not they
protect us from being able to transmit the virus, in addition to protecting
us from getting sick, but also as we get more information about the
behavior of the variants of the virus, the mutated virus that`s sweeping
the country. Dr. Walensky just told me that the variants are, quote,
increasingly transmissible. They are more transmissible than the original
wild coronavirus.
She sort of offered a call to action for Americans of every age and every
risk level. She said, wear your mask. Give us a fighting chance to beat
this thing and when it is your turn, roll up your sleeve and get the
vaccine.
Dr. Walensky calling this a hopeful day. And that means that a lot of
people within the foreseeable future are going to, say, get to see their
mom and dad, or their grandkids or their elderly pals who they have been a
part from.
Over the weekend, of course, the Senate also passed the $1.9 trillion COVID
relief bill, critical funding for vaccine distribution, schools safely
reopening, state and local governments rental assistance and boosted
unemployment so people who are out of work because of the pandemic don`t
end up on the street because of it.
Dr. Walensky also told me, which is a surprise I guess on this but the
COVID relief bill will also apparently result in the CDC finally having not
garbage data on COVID as well. Maybe. So used to the CDC being the gold
standard in terms of public health data, their public facing data on the
coronavirus from the beginning has been garbage. She said that`s part of
what the COVID relief bill will fix. That`s fantastic.
When the Senate finally passed the COVID relief bill on Saturday, you might
have seen Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown told reporters, quote, this is
the best day of my Senate life. It really is.
There`s a lot going on right now and a lot of it is good, and I don`t know
how to deal with that, not even know how to process that anymore. I don`t
have the right neurons.
Joining us now to help is my friend Chris Hayes, the host of "ALL IN WITH
CHRIS HAYES" and the best all-arounder general knowledge focused guy on
COVID and where we are as a country.
You read more widely and have more of an interesting take on where we are
in COVID than anybody else that I know, Chris.
HAYES: Thank you.
MADDOW: Because of that, I want to ask you how we deal with good news
because I realize there`s still a lot of bad news and I am clinging to that
because that makes sense to me. It seems like what`s happened over the past
few day, 2.9 million doses on a day, 1.9 trillion COVID relief bill on its
way to passing. I can`t process it.
HAYES: Yeah, it is hard to process. I mean, just to separate them out, on
the COVID side, I think you saw in the CDC director how hard it is to
message this moment for precisely the reasons you talked about and she
spoke about in the interview, which is that -- we`re -- I mean, we`re world
leaders right now in vaccination, OK? We`re near the top. We`re probably
the second best country in the world after Israel.
We`re certainly -- Ashish Jha just said this, certainly the best big
country right now in vaccinations. The 2.9 million a day, if we can get to
3 rolling average, like we`re doing a good job. There`s really competency
on display here in the way we haven`t seen.
And at the same time, it`s spring, and people are restless and there`s this
thaw feeling people have and the CDC doesn`t want behavior getting out
ahead of the virus, because we`ve seen what this does before. So, it`s a
really fraught and difficult moment.
But I keep holding onto the fact like when you run the math, 30 million
COVID cases, right? Probably the real number is like 3x of 90 million, we
do two and a half million a day, we`re doing, you know, 15 million a week.
Pretty soon, there`s 230 million adults in America, like pretty soon, you
just start getting to a point where like the math looks good for the first
time. The math looking good has not happened yet. The math always looks
bad.
And the math has been crushing and implacable and remorseless for an entire
year. And yes, we are at a point where there`s a lot of ways in which the
math is looking better and better.
MADDOW: So, Chris, given that, given we can try to live up to the
challenge of keeping both of those things alive and in our heads and active
at the same time, how do we think about this next couple of months as we
steam toward the mass vaccination numbers that we think are going to make
difference in terms of immunity and transmission getting into a good,
positive stasis. I mean, if we`re going to see big spikes in new
transmission as states led up, as individual people get hopeful as we`re
starting to get towards the end of this, how much can we shoot ourselves in
the foot now?
HAYES: A lot, unfortunately. One thing to think about is it`s always been
a case from the fatality perspective that massively disproportionate
amounts have come from seniors and have come from long term care
facilities. As you`ve done better reporting on this than anyone, OK? And
so, your viewers know this.
But it`s also the case those are the places where we`re having the highest
vaccination rates. So, I think, you know, even if we got an outbreak,
right, I have some hope that the vaccine should already be doing some of
its protective job in keeping people protected and alive in way we wouldn`t
see the kind of death spikes.
That said, I`m not public health expert. I don`t run the CDC. I`m not
(INAUDIBLE).
But the one thing I keep thinking about is the outside/inside distinction
still has not sunk into people. When you think about spring and you think
about spring break, you think about people down -- like don`t -- if you`re
a college student and you`re listening and going to go on spring break,
you`re going to drink beers with someone outside, do it outside. Don`t go
into a nightclub, for the love of God.
Like there`s an enormous difference between ventilated and non-ventilated
spaces, between outdoors and indoors. And if there`s one think that we
could hammer home to people, in this spring period, as the country warms up
and particularly parts of the country are getting quite warm and quite
beautiful out, take it outside, take it outside, take it outside.
MADDOW: Uh-huh. Chris, on the COVID relief bill, we keep saying $1.9
trillion, $1.9 trillion like that`s title of it or like that`s some easy
moniker to understand. How big -- how big a legislative accomplishment do
you think this is?
I`m asking in part because I feel like you and Steve Benen on THE RACHEL
MADDOW SHOW who writes Maddow Blog are the two people who I go to first in
terms of assessing particularly Democratic policy and its impact. Steve,
like hasn`t caviling since Saturday. Like I can`t even understand and he`s
basically jubilating instead of talking all the time now because of what a
big he thinks this bill is.
Are you also on the sort of maximum side of crescendo in terms of how
excited you are?
HAYES: I am. I mean, it`s -- look, the largest Democratic legislative
domestic policy bill of our life is the ACA because of it sort of way it
restructured markets, the fact it`s survived attempts at repeal. In terms
of direct aid to Americans expansion of the welfare state in this very
direct way for the child tax credit, like there`s never been anything on
this scale in my time covering politics and more than that, I think the
people, the reason you see Steve so excited and Paul Krugman on my show is
it feels like we drove a stake through the certain kind of anti-welfare
austerity politics that was incredibly powerful for four to five decades.
You know, from Reagan`s welfare queen to this bill, that the good guys, for
lack of a better word, won the intellectual, ideological and political
fight about what government can do when we`re underutilizing our resources.
And in some ways, it`s the details of this bill and the fact it will cut
child poverty in half, the fact that adult dependents will be able to get
checks which is massively helpful for people. There`s help for pension
funds that are going to be in trouble and state and local vaccination, all
that stuff.
But the kind of marketing of an era of transition of the politics of
government support and investment to me is as significant as anything that
I`ve seen in the time of politics.
MADDOW: Government actually being expected to help and doing so in a way
that the meaningful and targeted to people who most need the help and the
help getting there in a timely way.
HAYES: Exactly. The fact they had no messaging. The idea there was period
of time, they say, you just send people $1,400 checks. That would have
worked as an argument. Like those people earned those checks, it`s like
that politics have been blown out of the water. They got to tell you that,
you know, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is going to get a check.
It`s like the Tom Cotton argument against this. Like, you know, that`s how
desperate they are to find an argument against this.
MADDOW: That`s right. Not noting, of course, that prisoners also received
support from --
HAYES: The last turnaround, yep.
MADDOW: The Trump era bills that Tom Cotton supported as well. Chris
Hayes, my friend, thank you for staying late to talk to me about this stuff
tonight. I was really hoping that you could. Thank you.
HAYES: Great pleasure, thanks.
MADDOW: All right. Much more ahead tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: In Selma, Alabama, yesterday people gathered for the 56th
commemoration of Bloody Sunday, the day in 1965 when hundreds of civil
rights protesters in a voting rights march were beaten by Alabama state
troopers where they were trying to cross the Edmund Pettus Bridge.
Civil and voting rights group across the country solemnly commemorated that
anniversary for the first time in 56 years without Congressman John Lewis.
Not in the lead, Congressman Lewis passed away within the past year.
As commemoration was under way, yesterday, Republican lawmakers in Georgia
were gearing up to pass a sweeping voter suppression bill that`s being
called the most restrictive voter law since Jim Crow. Today, the Republican
controlled Senate in Georgia passed a series of voter suppression bills.
The bills target everything. They restrict early voting and voting on
Election Day and voting by mail. Any way you want to vote, they have a way
to take it away from you or make it harder.
One of the new plans, for example, limits weekend voting in advance of an
election which disproportionately affects black churches which
traditionally hold souls to the polls events for voting on Sunday. They
also want to ban volunteers from handing out food and water when voters are
stuck in long lines on Election Day, yes, because heaven forbid people have
food and water while they p stand on line for hours. You can`t have that.
The voter restriction bills that are moving quickly toward passage in
Georgia are so onerous and so obvious in their intent that even some
Republicans in Georgia can`t bring themselves to support them. Georgia`s
lieutenant governor actually refused to preside over the passage of the
Senate bill, rolling back absentee voting today. Despite that, these bills
are currently on track to pass out of both houses of the Georgia
legislature in some form.
But the fight isn`t just happening at the Georgia state house. Businesses
are increasingly starting to speak out about what`s happening in Georgia
with this massive roll back of voter rights. A collection of black artists
and athletes from around the country released this ad during the NBA all-
star weekend targeting Georgia residents. The voice you will hear in this
is NBA legend LeBron James.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEBRON JAMES, NBA LEGEND (voice-over): Look what we did. Look what we made
happen. What our voices made possible.
Now look what they`re trying to do to silence us, using every trick in the
book in attacking democracy itself.
But they saw what we`re capable of and they fear it. So, this isn`t the
time to put your feet up or to think hashtags and black squares is enough.
For us, this was never about one election. It`s always been more than a
vote. It`s a fight and it`s just getting started. We`ve been ready.
You with us?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Joining us now is Stanley Dunlap. He`s a reporter who covers state
government for "The Georgia Recorder". He`s been following this effort to
roll back Georgia voting rights.
Mr. Dunlap, thank you very much for making time to be here.
STANLEY DUNLAP, THE GEORGIA RECORDER REPORTER: Thank you for inviting me,
Rachel.
MADDOW: Is this a foregone conclusion in Georgia at this part or are
enough Republicans potentially getting cold feet here that despite their
control of state government, some of these things may not survive to final
passage?
DUNLAP: Yeah, that`s the million dollar question. Today was cross over
day. It was the last chance for bills from one chamber to pass over to the
other. In the Senate what we saw today was sweeping bill that would
eliminate the no excuse ballot law that`s been in place since 2005. Last
year, 1.3 million Georgians used that to vote.
That moves over the House, whether that will gain traction, will kind of
depend. House speaker, David Ralston, also a Republican, has spoken out
against that. We have seen the sweeping bill that moved through the house
is over to the Senate, it includes restrictions but does not go as far as
eliminating no excuse absentee law.
So, it will be interesting to see how this plays out once it gets into the
House committees pretty soon.
MADDOW: Shall we read anything into that somewhat dramatic decision today
when the lieutenant governor handed off the gavel and said he wouldn`t
preside over passing this legislation to rescind absentee voting access.
Should we read anything into that or was that a personal more than
political matter?
DUNLAP: No, I think this is something that Lieutenant Governor Duncan has
been one of the first Republicans who spoke about against the widespread
fraud claims after the election and said it`s time to move past that. It`s
been a secure election. They called for changes that had some controversy
from Democrats as far as absentee ID requirement that would replace the
signature verification.
I don`t think it was a political game necessarily from Duncan. I think this
is something that`s pretty well spoken out against. It`s a show of it I`m
not going to be here and have my name attached to this bill if it gets
through.
MADDOW: We are seeing black athletes and black artists and it seems like
increasingly the business community, specifically in Atlanta but also
perhaps more broadly in Georgia starting to take an interest here, starting
to make this a point of national discussion, trying to align themselves
with the forces that are fighting against these voter rights rollbacks.
Is that having any effect, or how do you expect that to evolve as this all
comes to a head?
DUNLAP: Yeah, I think any time you have business communities, and
sometimes people will call out celebrities who are trying to push their
weight around to have influence, but that`s definitely -- we saw major
dollars that helped improve voter registration, helped get people out
there, encouraging them to vote, so it does have significance. We saw the
Atlanta Chamber put out a statement today saying repealing the no excuse
serves make the process more secure and does so at great risk of
participation.
So I think when you have the Georgia Chamber, the Atlanta Chamber, big time
company celebrities, all that weighing in, people who have influence that
can make political donations and kind of wield great power, I do think they
can have an impact down the line.
MADDOW: Stanley Dunlap, reporter for "The Georgia Recorder". It`s a real
pleasure having you here tonight, Mr. Dunlap. Thank you so much.
DUNLAP: Thank you.
MADDOW: All right. We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: State prosecutors in the state of Georgia, the office of Fulton,
County Georgia district attorney announced last month they were opening an
investigation into former President Trump and whether he illegally tried to
interfere in Georgia`s elections. In letters to Georgia`s secretary of
state and other state officials who had been targets of President Trump`s
campaign to try to overturn his loss in the state, the prosecutor wrote
this.
We reported this at the time but it now seems newly important. Here`s how
she phrased it. She said, quote, this investigation includes, but is not
limited to, potential violations of Georgia law prohibiting solicitation of
election fraud, the making of false statements to state and local
governmental bodies, conspiracy, racketeering, violation in oath of office
and any involvement in violence or threats related to the election`s
administration.
Racketeering, did you say? Of all those potential crimes, the prosecutor
said she was investigating when it comes to former President Trump,
racketeering really kind of stood out as sort of unexpected, right? When we
think racketeering, we tend to think of the mafia.
And while former President Trump has often been accused by his detractors
of acting like a mob boss, is this prosecutor in Georgia really thinking
about prosecuting him like a mob boss?
Well, now that prosecutor has hired a racketeering expert to help in this
case. Reuters first to report and D.A.`s office confirmed that Fulton
District Attorney Fani Willis has, quote, enlisted the help of Atlanta
lawyer John Floyd, who wrote a national guide on prosecuting racketeering
cases under state law.
"Reuters" summed up the legal landscape this way, quote, if she pursues
racketeering charges, Willis will need to prove a pattern of corruption by
Trump, alone or with his allies, aimed at overturning the election results
to stay in power. Racketeering is typically pursued by prosecutors in cases
-- in cases, excuse me, in cases involving such crimes as murder,
kidnapping and bribery, the Georgia statute defines racketing more broadly,
to include things like false statements made to state officials.
I should tell you that a racketeering conviction in the state of Georgia
can carry a sentence of up to 20 years in prison. I will also tell you
we`re going to have much more on this tomorrow night with a former Georgia
D.A. who knows both Fani Willis and the racketeering expert she just hired
for her Trump case who knows exactly how a case like this will work.
Looking forward to that. You will not want to miss it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MADDOW: That is going to do it for us tonight. I want to say thank you,
again, to the CDC director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, for being on the show
tonight.
Joe Biden has not been president for very long. But already, we`ve twice
had the CDC director on the show, and once had Dr. Anthony Fauci here.
We`re hoping to have Dr. Fauci back with us on soon. What a difference a
president makes.
All right. We`ll see you again tomorrow.
Now, it`s time for "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL."
Good evening, Lawrence.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END
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