Summary
A team of federal and state officials were executing search warrants in raids that rounded up 13 men now accused in a terrorism plot in Michigan that included planning to kidnap and murder the Democratic governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer. Interview with Democratic Senator Gary Peters of Michigan, ranking member of the Homeland Security Committee. Last night, Mike Pence refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power when he and Donald Trump lose the Electoral College. Donald Trump's doctor who refuses to reveal the most important information about Donald Trump's medical conditions now says that Donald Trump is ready to go back on the campaign trail and have more public super spreader events starting on Saturday.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.
And you just broke some news with Attorney General Dana Nessel as far as I can tell, because I've studied this Michigan case today. And nowhere in the reporting that I found prior to you asking her about this was it revealed that these people were actually present at these protests at the state capitol where they were out there with their guns and being as menacing as they could possibly be.
The attorney general just told you that yes, people are indicted and charged with this today, they were there. Not only there but that it was part of their recruitment.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": That was the part to my. There is a reference to one of the confidential human sources they are using talking to one of the named defendants at those armed rallies -- armed right wing rallies at the state capitol.
But her describing some of these defendants as being in widely circulated photos from that event, them having participated in and specifically like you just said, them using that as a recruiting location for their plot to kidnap the governor in order to try to bring about a civil war, I do think that was the attorney general making some news here tonight.
O'DONNELL: And then you just broke the news of the president's tweets tonight. Not a word, not a word of sympathy or concern for the governor, just attacking the governor, and trying to claim credit for this FBI investigation as if it was his idea.
MADDOW: Yeah. I will say, though, that the president hasn't actually expressed empathy for anybody, even as he has apparently been at the center of a coronavirus crisis at the White House that includes the infection of his wife and almost all of his closest aides. He hasn't had any feelings that he felt the need to express even about those people being infected with a potentially lethal virus around him.
So, him not being able to conjure empathy for somebody from the opposite political party who's been targeted by his adherence, in part for the types of criticism he continues to levy against that governor, that isn't -- I guess this doesn't strike me as news. It strikes me as the caption on the encyclopedia entry for eternal damnation.
O'DONNELL: You are -- you are right again, Rachel.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: Thank you, Lawrence.
O'DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.
Once again, a debate moderator lost control of the debate last night and allowed Mike Pence to interrupt and get more speaking time than Kamala Harris. Caroline Randall Williams will discuss how and why that happened at the end of this hour tonight.
And while you were watching that vice presidential debate last night, a team of federal and state officials were executing search warrants in raids that rounded up 13 men now accused in a terrorism plot in Michigan that included planning to kidnap and murder the Democratic governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer.
Six men are facing federal charges of conspiracy to commit kidnapping which carries a maximum sentence of life in federal prison. Seven other men are facing a total of 19 state felony charges. Each of the state defendants is facing at least one felony charge that carries a 20-year sentence.
Richard J. Trask II is a special agent with the FBI and tells the story in a written affidavit, accompanying the federal complaint. Agent Trask specifies that he and the FBI know much more than what they have revealed in the affidavit. Quote: This affidavit is intended to show merely that there is sufficient probable cause to support the issuance of a criminal complaint, and does not set forth all of my knowledge about this matter.
Special agent Trask says that investigators who've been following this plot since early this year. The FBI infiltrated the group with undercover agents and converted at least two members of the group to become informers for the FBI.
On July 24th of this year, Adam Fox, one of the group's leaders, said in a phone call that was recorded by one of the FBI's informers: In all honesty right now, I just want to make the world glow dude. I'm not even f-ing kidding. I just want to make it all glow, dude. I don't f-ing care anymore. I'm just so sick of it.
That's what it's got to take for us to take it back go. We're just going to have to everything's going to have annihilated, man. We're going to topple it all, dude. It is what great frickin' conquerors, man, we're just going to conquer every frickin' thing, man.
The great frickin' conquerors are all in jail tonight, all of them.
Three days later, Adam Fox asked in an encrypted group chat with four of his co-conspirators, which included one of the FBI's informers: OK, well, how's everybody feel about kidnapping?
In June, Adam Fox said that they needed 200 men to storm the capitol building in Lansing, Michigan, to take hostages, including the governor. By July, having given up on the 200 men, the conspirators decided it would be easier to capture the governor at her vacation home.
The group met repeatedly at Adam Fox's place of business in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The special agent Trask tells us, as part of Fox's operational security, the attendees met in the basement of the shop which was accessed through a trap door hidden under a rug on the main floor.
Fox collected all of their cellular phones in a box and carried them upstairs to prevent any monitoring. Confidential human source number two was wearing a recording device, however, and captured the audio from the meeting. At the July 27th meeting at Adam Fox's secret basement, which was once being secretly recorded by confidential human source number two, one of the FBI's informants, Adam Fox, said snatch and grab, man. Grab the f-ing governor, just grab the woman, he didn't use the woman, of course. Because at that point, we do that, dude, it's over.
Now, if you are a member of a group in this country that calls itself a militia, you are in trouble tonight, and your friends are in trouble tonight, because the FBI is watching you. The FBI is watching you because Timothy McVeigh, the honorably discharged army veteran who killed 168 people in Oklahoma City in 1995 got his start in a group in Michigan that called itself a militia. And if you are in a group like that, some or all of the people you are associating with in your falsely labeled militia are dangerous to you and your family and your future and your family's future.
If anyone in your group talks like Adam Fox, and the others recorded by the FBI, you may find yourself spending the rest of your natural life in federal prison or you might find yourself like seven other men tonight, facing state charges that can put you in prison for more than 20 years. And you should all note that every single person facing state charges is facing the charge of carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, which carries a mandatory two-year prison sentence in Michigan, and that sentence must be served after any other sentence you serve for any other crime that you might commit.
And the reason they are all facing the charge of carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony is that they always carry and possess their firearms, always. That is their crazed public badge of honor, carrying their firearms. If you are carrying your firearm while providing material support for terrorist acts, then that firearm alone is going to get you two years in prison.
Material support for terrorist acts is the state charge that every one of the state defendants is facing because they are not members of a militia, no matter what they might call themselves. They are, according to the attorney general of the state of Michigan, terrorists. This is not a story of what these people call themselves. This is a story about what federal and state prosecutors call them, and they call them terrorists.
And they are all on tape discussing the crimes that the FBI has accused them of committing. And they are on tape because the FBI infiltrated the group and converted at least two members of the group to become informants.
So, if you go to another meeting of a group that calls itself a militia, look around the room because someone in that room with you is either an undercover FBI agent or is reporting you to the FBI.
So, if your husband is in a group that calls itself a militia or your brother is, or your uncle, or your boyfriend, next time they go to a meeting, you might never see them again except on visiting day in their prison, because no matter how much Donald Trump might encourage people in groups like that, he cannot stop the FBI from infiltrating them and charging them with crimes.
After the charges were announced today, Michigan's Governor Gretchen Whitmer made a statement that focused mostly on how difficult this year has been for the people of Michigan and for this country in dealing with the challenges and life changes being forced on us by the coronavirus.
It seemed clear that the governor knew about this plot against her before the arrest were made and had taken measures to increase her safety.
Here is some of what the governor had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Just last week, the president of the United States stood before the American people and refused to condemn white supremacist and hate groups like these two Michigan militia groups. Stand back and stand by, he told them. Stand back and stand by.
Hate groups heard the president's words not as a rebuke but as a rallying cry, as a call to action.
When our leaders speak, their words matter. They carry weight. When our leaders meet with, encourage, or fraternize with domestic terrorists, they legitimatize their actions and they are complicit. When they stoke and contribute to hate speech, they are complicit.
Let me say this loud and clear: hatred, bigotry and violence have no place in the great state of Michigan. If you break the law or conspire to commit heinous acts of violence against anyone, we will find you. We will hold you accountable and we will bring you to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Breaking news, in addition to the story tonight, Joe Biden has just released a statement about this, saying that presidential words matter. He says: They can heal divisions or incite violence.
Joe Biden says about this: There is a through line from President Trump's dog whistles and tolerance of hate, vengeance and lawlessness to plots such as this one. He is giving oxygen to the bigotry and hate like we see on the March in our country. We have to stop it.
Joe Biden says: I just spoke a few days ago in Gettysburg about the cost of division in this country and the need to stand up and shut down violence and hate. The moment has come. We need to come together for the country I know, for the country you know. We need to make our voice heard. Last word of this statement is "vote".
Leading off our discussion tonight, Democratic Senator Gary Peters of Michigan. He's a ranking member of the Homeland Security Committee.
Also, with us, Olivia Troye, a former senior staff member of the White House coronavirus task force and a former homeland security counterterrorism adviser to Vice President Mike Pence.
Senator Peters, let me begin with you and the situation in Michigan tonight. You began your day trying to advance your re-election campaign. And now, Michigan gets drowned in this story tonight.
What is the situation as you know it in terms of the governor's own safety tonight? Has it been changed or increased in any way since these charges were made public?
SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): Well, certainly, every effort is -- is being made to protect her safety. And that has actually been -- some of that has been ramping up prior to the apprehension of these individuals.
You know, it's a -- it is a time right now where there is increased anxiety. You have folks who are very concerned about the future and dealing with this COVID crisis.
And as you were saying earlier here in this program, words matter. And when you hear some elected officials calling out a governor and using words that are inappropriate that they can actually stoke people's anxiety and lead to some really bad behavior, you know, when you have a president saying to Michigan, liberate Michigan. Liberate Michigan from the oppression that is happening right now by the government, you see that can have an impact.
And what I'm particularly concerned about and my work in the Homeland Security Committee is that you're seeing a rise of white supremacist groups, of anti-government group, anti-Semitic groups. It's a trend we've been seeing in this country for some time. It's very concerning.
We need to collect more data about it. But the groups showing this is saying if you look at domestic violence and violence internally, 92 percent of that just this year has been related to domestic terrorism anti-government groups. You've seen that over the last decade.
This is continuing to accelerate. We need to be sure that when we're out there talking, that we're talking about bringing people together, not stoking people's violent tendencies. This is a very dangerous time that we're in right now. And it's up to elected officials to show leadership and bring down the tension that we're seeing in this country.
O'DONNELL: The governor has responded to Donald Trump's attacks on her tonight on Twitter. The president has attacked her on Twitter, and she has said, Mr. President, I thought you weren't interested in a virtual debate, mocking the president's refusal to participate in a virtual debate.
And she said: You clearly didn't watch my speech earlier. And she links to her speech -- which is so true, Senator. The governor's speech was something that Donald Trump could not even, I think, comprehend.
There was no feeling sorry for herself. There was no real even focus on herself and the danger to her family. It was all about trying to help Michigan get through this very difficult year.
PETERS: Absolutely. And that's what we would hope that we would hear from the president of the United States is bringing people together and the difficult times that we are in.
And when you think about the work of law enforcement, which was extraordinary, and when we're dealing with domestic terrorism, we know that we have to have federal agents working with local officials. We saw that here in Michigan. The FBI working closely with the state police. We should celebrate that.
And you would hope that the president would have celebrated that. And instead, he launched some tweets, basically attacking the governor and saying she is doing a terrible job.
This is a governor who had a life-threatening real attack against her. How could someone not step up and say this is something that is completely unacceptable in this country. We have to condemn hatred. We have to condemn bigotry. We have to condemn this insidious rise of domestic terrorism and violence.
It's up to the president of the United States to show leadership, to unite this country instead of continuing to create increased tensions and anxieties that can lead to some violent actions.
This is completely unacceptable behavior on the part of the president.
O'DONNELL: Senator, you're a Democrat. You're a Democratic senator running for re-election this year in Michigan. You support this governor.
Do you fear for your own safety in your state?
PETERS: I don't fear for my safety. I think what we have seen with these individuals don't -- certainly doesn't represent the people of Michigan. It's a small group.
And we need to certainly count on the FBI and our folks at Homeland Security, our local law officials to be able to track these individuals.
As you mentioned, folks are communicating in these groups via social media. They're connecting. They're using encrypted communications. But it does require intelligence services from the federal government working in close cooperation with local officials so we can protect elected officials but every day citizens.
Domestic terrorism often is indiscriminate in their attacks. What they're trying to do is to sow chaos, to sow fear in the community. We have to come together as a country and as a people and condemn this and support the folks who are on the frontlines of protecting all of us from this type of violence.
O'DONNELL: Senator Gary Peters of Michigan, thank you very much for joining us tonight on this very difficult day for your state. We really appreciate it.
PETERS: Thank you for having me on. Appreciate it.
O'DONNELL: We turn now to Olivia Troye.
Olivia, you used to -- you are a counterterrorism expert. You were working on that in Homeland Security before you went to work on Mike Pence's staff, the vice president's office, working on the coronavirus task force.
I want to get your view of this case as a -- as a counterterrorism expert in homeland security.
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER SENIOR STAFFER, WHITE HOUSE COVID TASK FORCE: Yeah, I think you're seeing the president's rhetoric and encouraging of this time of extremism play out before our very eyes. And we have been tracking these patterns, these trends, of increasing domestic terrorism in our country. I personally believe that other than cybersecurity, domestic terrorism is a significant threat to our country. We are watching this happen.
We are watching extremes quite frankly on both sides that are exploiting opportunities. And the president has given them a platform now, especially to the far right. And, you know, I don't see him changing his rhetoric though because he believes these are his voters. Unfortunately, he -- they are focused on them and they are part of his base.
And quite frankly, when you have Stephen Miller as one of your main advisers who is in your ear day and night and he's writing your speeches, I don't -- I have no words for that. I mean, that says -- that tells all of us everything we need to know.
O'DONNELL: Olivia Troye, you joined us the night before the vice presidential debate and you said you wanted to hear Mike Pence ask about how he could support a White House that was basically engaging in super spreader events. He was asked a version of that question last night. And what his answer was, basically we trust the American people to take their own precautions.
What was your reaction to that?
TROYE: I thought once again I was watching the vice president pander to the president and pivoting on a critical issue that he was the leader for the task force. And, quite frankly, tat answer just wasn't enough for me.
O'DONNELL: Olivia Troye, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight. We always appreciate it.
TROYE: Thank you for having me.
O'DONNELL: Thank you.
Well, last night, Mike Pence refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power when he and Donald Trump lose the Electoral College.
And today, Donald Trump sounds worried that his Attorney General William Barr has so far failed to deliver the October surprise that Donald Trump seems to be counting on. Neal Katyal joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: As if following orders from his boss last night, Mike Pence refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if Joe Biden and Kamala Harris win the Electoral College. But don't worry, because, luckily for us, the transfer of power does not depend on any action or statement by the president.
After the Electoral College votes, the chief justice of the United States will swear in the winner of that vote on January 20th. And the Secret Service will escort Donald Trump out of the White House at that time, unless, as I strongly suspect, Donald Trump spends Inauguration Day sulking at his Florida home, which is actually a hotel, because as "The New York Times" recently revealed in his expose of Donald Trump's taxes, Donald Trump cannot afford a standalone home that is not part of an income-generating business.
Today, Donald Trump expressed increasing impatience with his attorney general's failure so far to deliver an October surprise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (via telephone): Unless Bill Barr indicts these people for crimes, the greatest political crime in the history of our country, then we're going to get little satisfaction unless I win because I won't forget it. But these people should be indicted. This was the greatest political crime in the history of our country. And that includes Obama and it includes Biden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Joining our discussion now, Neal Katyal, forming acting U.S. solicitor general during the Obama administration. He is an MSNBC legal contributor.
Neal, let's start with what the president just said. He seems to be expecting an October surprise from William Barr.
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I mean, it's the last gasp of a desperate failing man. To back up a bit the Justice Department for decades has been a crown jewel in our democracy, in which law enforcement is doled out in a nonpartisan way.
You know, I saw it first hand even when the Clinton administration, Ken Starr -- one of Ken Starr's officials did something horribly wrong, we didn't just throw the book at him. We thought about it and actually didn't, because we thought be even handed. Don't just use the prosecution power to exact revenge.
And so, presidents don't interfere with prosecutions. Now you've got this president who's calling for his predecessor, Obama, to be indicted, calling for his chief political rival in an election in 26 days, Joe Biden, to be indicted. And then part of the Trump's statements that you didn't play over the last 24 hours, he said Attorney General Barr is either going to go down as the greatest attorney general or a sad, sad situation in history if he doesn't bring these indictments.
And that is not the way presidents behave, at least not presidents of the United States. I don't know about Russia, presidents of Russia or something like that.
And, you know, the last thing I'll say about this is Trump has had more bites at this Lawrence, than anyone. I mean, he had Jeff Sessions look into this whole Obama-Biden thing. He had the inspector general look into it. He had the House Intelligence Committee look into it. He had the Senate Intelligence Committee look into it. He had John Durham, the U.S. attorney in Connecticut, look into it.
And at the end of all of this, Donald Trump is empty-handed as any student who's ever attended Trump University.
O'DONNELL: Well, isn't the Durham investigation supervised by William Barr that the president is expecting to reveal something for him any minute now?
KATYAL: Yeah, it's desperate and hopeful. You know, hope springs internal with him. But the fact is you've had all these multiple different investigations come forth with nothing going on.
And indeed, Durham, Durham's own deputy, Nora Dannehy, who's a very respected prosecutor, career prosecutor, resigned just last month basically saying, according to "The Hartford Courant" that there was political interference with this investigation, and that the White House was trying to pressure the Justice Department to bring some sort of tarnishment or something against Joe Biden.
O'DONNELL: Now, the attorney general has been quarantining, he says, because of his attendance at that super spreader event at the White House. And so, we haven't heard anything from him lately, but the attorney general's able to read poll as well as the rest of us. And you have to wonder as he watches this complete collapse of this Trump campaign, how much does he want to do for someone who is going to lose very, very badly if that is the attorney general's reading of these polls?
KATYAL: Well, I think, Lawrence, you started by saying something really important. You said the transfer of power is up to us, the American people, not up to the president and so on.
But there is an asterisk here because the president and his Justice Department are trying to use the Justice Department in ways to try and prevent the election from unfolding in a democratic way. So just yesterday, it was revealed that the Justice Department has modified its long-standing policy for decades of never announcing a prosecution -- a political-based prosecution of a political entity right before an election.
They changed it because they said well, now we are worried about all the so-called election fraud and things like that. that's never happened. So you do have this attorney general who may be quarantining but is still up to some pretty nefarious, mischievous things.
At the end of the day, the American people can swamp all of this by overwhelming votes at the polls, but you know, we can't take anything for granted.
O'DONNELL: Neal Katyal, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.
KATYAL: Thank you.
O'DONNELL: And when we come back, Donald Trump's doctor who refuses to reveal the most important information about Donald Trump's medical conditions now says that Donald Trump is ready to go back on the campaign trail and have more public super spreader events starting on Saturday.
Ron Klain, an adviser to the Biden campaign will join us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: The American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: The Washington D.C. Health Department is now urging the White House to do contact tracing of everyone at the Rose Garden's announcement of Donald Trump's nominee to the Supreme Court because that event has become a super spreader by Washington D.C. standards where the coronavirus has been largely under control.
Mike Pence's press secretary is denying tonight that the Pence campaign has cancelled its schedule tomorrow because of a coronavirus infection. "Nobody is sick. There's no positive tests," says Mike Pence's press secretary.
A new investigation by "U.S.A. Today" finds that Donald Trump and other White House insiders infected with COVID-19 carried the virus across the country in a matter of days potentially exposing hundreds, perhaps thousands of people as they went about their business.
At least 6,000 people attended meetings, rallies and other gatherings with them within a week of the Supreme Court nomination ceremony September 26th in the White House Rose Garden. More than 120 people came dangerously close to Trump and the others during that week, the U.S.A. Today investigation found.
Donald Trump and his White House doctor are refusing to reveal when Donald Trump last tested negative for COVID-19 which means there is no reason to believe that we know when he first tested positive for COVID-19 and without making any of that information public tonight, Donald Trump's doctor who has admitted lying publicly about his patient's treatment has said that the COVID-infected president can return to quote, "public engagements" on Saturday.
So a Donald Trump super spreader event could be coming to a location near you as soon as Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think I'm contagious at all. I'm essentially very clean. I'm looking forward to doing the rallies. I would love to do a rally tonight. I wanted to do one last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Joining us now, Ron Klain, a former senior aide to Vice President Joe Biden and President Barack Obama. He is now an adviser to the Biden campaign. Ron Klain was in charge of the Obama administration's response to the ebola virus.
So Ron, Donald Trump says he doesn't think he is contagious at all so that settles it, right?
RON KLAIN, BIDEN CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Oh sure. I'm good with that. Look, I mean the problem here is that the White House hasn't been straight and they haven't been careful. And that is a dangerous combination when you put the two together.
You know, people are going to get this virus. They are going to get ill, that's going to happen. But -- and that's no one's fault when it happens as long as people are being responsible and taking care.
And in fact, we have seen just the opposite, before and after. Before he got sick and since he's got sick, the president continues to essentially mock people for wearing masks, defiantly removing his mask on his return to the White House. You know, continuing to oppose any measure.
His chief personal medical adviser Scott Atlas, the person advising him on the coronavirus response, instead of listening to Tony Fauci announced the day that Trump got home from the hospital that nothing is going to change in the coronavirus response as a result of his personal experience.
So this administration has been reckless and erratic before the president got ill, it seems reckless and erratic right now and that is putting a lot of people in danger.
O'DONNELL: So Mike Pence canceling campaign events and the Mike Pence press secretary saying it has nothing to do with coronavirus. There have been no positive tests for coronavirus on their campaign. How are we to take that?
KLAIN: Well look, Lawrence, I mean I think we'll have to see. I mean I know that they've said he's going to resume his travel schedule on Saturday. I certainly hope Vice President Pence, I hope Mrs. Pence aren't sick. I mean I don't want anyone to be sick from this virus.
My -- the point I think all Americans have to focus on is that the president and the vice president who's in charge of this task force doesn't have a plan to keep other people from getting sick. In fact, people keep on getting sick at the White House.
You know, I thought the most interesting news development today Lawrence, actually was Mitch McConnell, Donald Trump's most loyal ally saying he has not come to the White House since early August because he does not trust how they handle COVID.
Well, if Mitch McConnell says it is unsafe to be around the president and his people why should anyone be around the president and his people?
O'DONNELL: And that's Mitch McConnell running for reelection in Kentucky where he found his way today to distance himself from Donald Trump on something that even Kentuckians can accept. It isn't safe to go to the Trump White House.
KLAIN: Yes. I mean it's social distancing and political distancing on behalf of Senator McConnell. And that should be a flashing yellow light for everyone on both scores. It's a sign that the Republican Party is recognizing that Trump's failed COVID response is a giant political liability for them.
It is a sign for the American people. That people who really know what they are doing, know what they're talking about don't trust Donald Trump to handle COVID in his own house let alone in your house.
O'DONNELL: Ron, once again, Mike Pence last night refusing to commit to a transfer of power. You were involved in the most contested election of our time in 2000 in Florida on Al Gore's side of this.
There could be a big legal battle going on in multiple states by the time we get to November 4th, a day after this election. What is the Biden/Harris legal team strategy for all of that?
KLAIN: Well first of all, Lawrence, I want to really commend and highlight what you said earlier. It is not up to Donald Trump to decide who won the election. It's not up Mike Pence to decide who won the election. We have a legal process in this country for counting votes and legal process for recognizing that count and ultimately a legal process for the electoral college to meet, cast its votes, and for that vote to be certified.
The most important thing I can say to people is the vote. I mean I think the problem, ultimately our fundamental problem in Bush v Gore was it was a very, very close election and it was subject, because it was so close to all kinds of chicanery on the part of the Bush campaign.
The only way to have a safe election in 2020 is to have an overwhelming result in 2020. That is in all of our hands. The Biden campaign is absolutely ready to fight this in court if that's needed. They're absolutely ready.
They have aggressive voter protection (INAUDIBLE) all these things but the single best line of defense for democracy is people exercising their right to vote and making it clear they want the era of Trump to end.
O'DONNELL: Ron Klain, no one knows more about closely fought presidential elections than Ron Klain. Ron, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Always appreciate it.
KLAIN: Thanks, Lawrence. Thanks for having me.
O'DONNELL: And when we come back, why did Mike Pence interrupt Kamala Harris 16 times last night? And why did the moderator of the debate make sure that Kamala Harris did not get equal time to speak in that debate?
That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: We have it within our power in these next 27 days to make the decision about what will be the course of our country for the next four years. And it is within our power, and if we use our vote and we use our voice, we will win. And we will not let anyone subvert our democracy with what Donald Trump has been doing as he did on the debate stage last week. When again in front of 70 million people he openly attempted to suppress the vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: After last night's unnecessarily dangerous debate where the candidates and their staffs had to fly to Salt Lake City, it took a revolt of the Presidential Debate Commission's own staff to force the commission to announce that the next scheduled presidential debate would be a virtual debate with the candidates joining from separate remote locations, that the Debate Commission was endangering the lives of about 55 workers who set up these debate venues for the commission around the country.
"The New York Times" reports the decision was made after members of the commission's production team objected to the safety risks of staging another in-person event at an indoor venue. The first debate with the candidates in remote locations was held 60 years ago in the first year of televised presidential debates when John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon were on separate sides of the country, appearing remotely, joined by the magic of network television.
Donald Trump refused to participate in the debate scheduled for next week, the virtual debate. So Joe Biden will do a nationally televised town hall with voters in Philadelphia instead.
Here is more from last night's debate where Kamala Harris was continually interrupted by Mike Pence and the moderator gave more speaking time to Mike Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: The vice president is the head of the task force. And knew on January 28th how serious this was. And then thanks to Bob Woodward we learned that they knew about it and then when that was exposed the vice president said when asked why didn't you all tell anybody he said because the president wanted people to remain calm.
(CROSSTALK)
HARRIS: No, but Susan, this is important.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Susan, I have to weigh in here.
HARRIS: Mr. Vice President, I'm speaking.
PENCE: I have to weigh in.
HARRIS: I'm speaking.
SUSAN PAGE, DEBATE MODERATOR: You have 51 seconds and then we'll give the Vice President a chance to speak.
HARRIS: Thank you.
So I want to ask the American people, how calm were you when you are panicked about where you are going to get your next roll of toilet paper? How calm were you when your kids were sent home from school and you didn't know when they can go back? How calm were you --
PAGE: Thank you.
HARRIS: -- when your children couldn't see your parents because you were afraid they could kill them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: We'll have more on last night's debate after this break with Caroline Randall Williams.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: As I said last night in our debate coverage, were it not for Donald Trump, Mike Pence would be the rudest debater we have seen on the debate stage.
Karen Atia (ph), global opinions editor at "The Washington Post" writes. "The way Susan Page more aggressively tried to limit Harris' time was all too familiar in how white women can also be complicit in silencing black women. Harris pushed back at both Page and Pence and tenaciously fought to make her case for a Biden presidency. Harris made walking that tightrope look easy. But I wish black women didn't have to work so hard. I yearn for an America where non-white women don't have to battle for the bare minimum to be allowed to speak."
Joining our discussion now is Caroline Randall Williams. She is a writer in residence at Vanderbilt University. She wrote a highly-acclaimed opinion piece for "The New York Times" titled "You want a confederate monument, my body is a confederate monument".
Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
As I was watching that last night and I was watching the dynamic playing out on stage with two people interrupting Kamala Harris and making sure that Mike Pence got more speaking time I just kept wondering what does Caroline think about what we're watching here.
CAROLINE RANDALL WILLIAMS, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Oh, Lawrence, I was yelling at my TV, is the first thing I can say. I was so grateful to Kamala for being everything that the world -- all the things that she is because the world is too hard and she has overcome them. I was so grateful that she is with all of that grace that she possesses last night because she just didn't put one toe out of line.
But you know, the thing that really drove me insane last night was when Susan Page would just keep saying, "Thank you, Mike Pence, thank you, thank you, thank you". And I just kept wondering why on earth are you thanking this man for breaking the rules instead of demanding that he behave appropriately.
And then you know, when it was Kamala's turn she'd say thank you Senator Harris, and then she'd sort of connect with Kamala, she'd try to make eye contact like it's just us girls, why don't you follow the rules because this boy is being dumb.
And I thought that is not how we play this game, not in this moment, not when white women have been taking so much away from black women throughout history. And when actually we're both trying to figure out how to get rid of this like toxic neo-conservative masculinity that we're all having to witness.
O'DONNELL: I want to show the final lines of the debate from Kamala Harris because it was one of those moments that tends to be hokey in these debates. Susan Page asked a question from an eighth grade girl and Mike Pence did a talking points answer that didn't acknowledge the existence of the girl really. And then Kamala Harris took on the question directly, and it was about why when this eighth grade girl looks at politics does she see so much yelling and discord and just argumentative conduct.
Let's watch what Kamala Harris said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: When you think about the future I do believe the future is bright. And it will be because of your leadership, and it will be because we fight for each person's voice through their vote, and we get engaged in this election. Because you have the ability through your work and through eventually your vote --
PAGE: Thank you Senator Harris.
HARRIS: -- to determine the future of our country and what its leadership looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Caroline, what struck me about that is that's the question you can't prepare for. That won't be in the briefing books because that's an eighth grade girl asking about the way she sees the world, and Kamala Harris addressed her answer to the eighth grade girl.
WILLIAMS: That's right. She addressed it to the eighth grade girl because she is looking to the future. You know, Mike Pence, all he can do is look backward and attract flies. Kamala Harris is a former prosecutor. She knows the best of what this country can be even within the parameters of its rules.
You know, she is the dream. That's why she confuses them. She's this woman who embodies, you know, the best parts of American ideals made manifest to their fullest, most complete extent.
She is serious. She's free. She's judicious, she's disciplined, and she's forward-looking. And I think that that was the part of that that struck me the most because Mike Pence was sort of this nostalgic gesture toward an across-the-aisle America that just meant that there are old white guys on both sides of the aisle. And you know, a Biden-Harris ticket is going to be one that if they figure out how to navigate across the aisle politics again is going to be one where we're both actually seeing each other and working towards some sort of common truth.
And that's one of my biggest hopes for the potential of their partnership in the White House.
O'DONNELL: The most unlikable politician in American history, Donald Trump, called Kamala Harris totally unlikable. He said this to a woman interviewer this morning, said she's a communist, not a socialist. And repeatedly to this woman interviewer on Fox who didn't object at all, repeatedly referred to Kamala Harris as this monster.
WILLIAMS: Look, I'm -- I'm tired of that kind of language. You know, I just -- I have to circle back around in this moment that I have to circle back to what Mike Pence said when he was talking about George Floyd. And he said there's no excuse for what happened to George Floyd, but -- and there is no but. And Kamala Harris took a moment. She just was so ready to speak that truth to power, and I'm so invested in making sure that that is the last message that we take this evening.
O'DONNELL: And that is tonight's LAST WORD.
Caroline Randall Williams gets tonight's LAST WORD. Thank you very much for joining us once again.
WILLIAMS: Thank you for having me.
O'DONNELL: "THE 11TH HOUR WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS" starts now.
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