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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 5/13/21

Guests: Ashish Jha, Tim Ryan


CDC lifts mask restrictions for vaccinated people. Today, President Biden continued his push for a bipartisan infrastructure bill by meeting in the Oval Office with six Republican senators led by West Virginia`s Shelly Moore Capito who`s the top Republican on the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, which has jurisdiction over all of the traditional forms of infrastructure like roads, bridges, airports, rail systems and more. Trump White House counsel Don McGahn is finally going to testify under oath to the House Judiciary Committee about Donald Trump`s attempts to fire special prosecutor Robert Mueller. Today the day after that Republican lie about Trump tourists in the capitol was told, a major in the marine corps became the first active-duty military service member to be criminally charged in the January 6th attack on the capital.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, thank you very much. You`re promoting this town hall is something like we`ve never seen an MSNBC. Really appreciate all the support you gave us on that.

And today, Rachel, I began the day by walking around Washington, D.C. outdoors with my mask off, because last night, Dr. Fauci said in the special, you can -- if you`re vaccinated, you do not need a mask outdoors.

And I pressed him on that one, back and forth. What about if you`re near unvaccinated people? He said, okay, no problem. You can do anything you want outdoors. If you`re vaccinated, you don`t neat a mask outdoors. That`s as far as I went.

I was one question away from what about indoors? But it didn`t occur to me. So in my history -- you know that thing we have, Rachel, after every one of these shows -- oh, I should have asked, I should have said.

MADDOW: Yes, yes.

O`DONNELL: I forgot about indoors. I forgot about it last night.

MADDOW: He wouldn`t have gotten ahead of the CDC. He would have said, well, stay tuned for some interesting news on that tomorrow at best. He wouldn`t have spilled the beans.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, and this news today is kind of disorienting. You`ve talked about it. I started walking around in California outdoors without a mask when they said you could if you were vaccinated, I felt strange. It had become such a habit that it felt odd to me not to have it. I kind of came to like it.

And I was forcing myself to do it. But wondering what people were thinking of me because I was doing it. It`s just a -- it`s a complicated dynamic.

And in Washington, Rachel, I have never seen mask compliance like this. It`s 100 percent. I mean, outdoors, 100 percent, and it will be fascinating to see what it is tomorrow after this announcement tonight.

MADDOW: Yeah. And we`re all going to have to -- I mean, I appreciate the fact that both Dr. Fauci and President Biden and Dr. Walensky with me tonight talked about the fact that we basically need to rewire ourselves in terms of way we perceive others and their mask wearing. Because up until now, if you`re around other people and not wearing a mask, basically you were behaving as kind of a jerk, and now it means you may be following CDC guidance.

And so, we`re going to have to think about what it means together as Americans, as people, in terms of how we view masks on others. And for me, I`m going to have to rewire my brain on that. I really am going to have to.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, it`s been quite a journey. I remember I was in Los Angeles before masks were mandated, and I went into a small grocery store, and everyone -- almost everyone was wearing a mask that day. It just happened suddenly that day without any mandate at all.

I wasn`t wearing one. I didn`t have one with me and I felt terrible being in the store. I thought, these people have a right to be afraid of me right now. And then we all got mandated maybe two or three days later and it became so much more comfortable to know what we were supposed to do.

That was such an important thing to know. But this change is really kind of a triumphant moment because it is that moment where vaccinated people really get their lives back as they know it.

MADDOW: Yes. That`s exactly right. And we have been now -- having spent the last year wearing a mask as a sign of consideration and respect and care for others to now be told wearing a mask is no longer required, you can still -- you know, you can still be considerate of others while not wearing a mask. I mean, it`s going to be -- I think it`s going to be a slow change for a lot of people, even with the pronouncement -- the full-throated pronouncement from the CDC.

I think it`s going to be hard for us to think of this in a new way after the trauma and the fears that we have been through and the -- you know, the bottom lands that we`ve gone through as a country over these issues over the last 14 months.

O`DONNELL: It feels like with we need psychologically -- and of course we won`t have this -- but, you know, the "I voted" sticker. You know, we need to I`m vaccinated sticker. I feel like I want to declare as I`m walking down the street to these people on the other side of the street, I`m vaccinated. I`m vaccinated.

And, of course, I used to give my daughter my "I voted" sticker when she was like, 11, so it isn`t exactly accurate, even the "I voted" sticker isn`t totally accurate all the time.

MADDOW: Yeah, you were the source of those voting fraud theories about the kids voting, I know.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, yep. Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Well, our world changed today, it really did. The way we live in America changed today. It`s the day our masks came off, not just outdoors but indoors. For those of us who are already vaccinated and people who are going to get vaccinated, today really, really is a great day for America.


JOSEPH R. BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today is a great day for America, in our long battle with coronavirus. Just a few hours ago, the center for disease control and prevention, CDC, announced that they`re no longer recommending that fully vaccinated people need wear masks. This recommendation holds true whether you are inside or outside.

I think it`s a great milestone, a great day. It`s been made possible by the extraordinary success we have had in vaccinating so many Americans so quickly.


O`DONNELL: A hundred seventeen million Americans had their lives changed today by this announcement. This declaration of safety outside and inside for the 117 million Americans who are already fully vaccinated.


O`DONNELL: If you have been fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. Let me repeat -- if you are fully vaccinated, you no longer need to wear a mask. But if you have not been vaccinated or if getting a two-shot intervene and you`ve not gotten -- you`ve only had your first shot but not your second or haven`t waited the full two weeks after your second shot, you still need to wear a mask.


O`DONNELL: President Biden`s message today for everyone who is not yet vaccinated is vaxxed or masked.


BIDEN: The rule is very simple -- get vaccinated or wear a mask until you do. It`s vaxxed or masked. Get vaccinated. If you`re vaccinated you can be around the vaccinated or unvaccinated people.


O`DONNELL: Today, Joe Biden remembered all of the important moments that were missed last year that will not be missed again by people who are vaccinated.


BIDEN: So many months that our kids couldn`t be in school. You couldn`t see your friends or family. All the moments that mattered so much from birthdays to weddings to graduations, all postponed.


O`DONNELL: And as of today, life no longer has to be postponed for people who are vaccinated.

Like victory in World War II, today`s public health triumph is framed in tragedy, something Joe Biden never forgets.


O`DONNELL: I carry a card in my pocket with the number of lives lost to COVID as of close of business yesterday, 580,073 lost lives. So many empty chairs. So many times, a husband or wife leaned over to touch their spouse, they`re not there. Moms and dads, sons and daughters, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, grandparents, your neighbors, your coworkers.


O`DONNELL: Today, shortly before President Biden`s speech, the masks came off inside the White House.


JONATHAN LEMIRE, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: It`s a new day here at the White House, too, and the president, we just heard from him in the rose garden, but he marked it a short time earlier. He was in with a meeting of Republican senators in a plan to talk about infrastructure, and while he was in there with the six senators word came down on the CDC guidelines and they all looked at each other, Senator Capito, and they all took out of their masks, including President Biden, right there at in Oval Office.


O`DONNELL: What a difference a day makes. I was at the White House yesterday for what turned out to be the last masked day outside and inside the White House.

Here`s a photograph of President Biden arriving in the blue room for our interview yesterday. The president then sat down for the interview and took his mask off only when we started to record the interview. And as soon as the interview was over, we both put our masks back on and President Biden stood and spoke with me privately for several minutes before leaving in the masked White House yesterday.

Yesterday in the president`s meeting with the big four leaders of congress, everyone in the oval office was wearing a mask for that meeting. Every time we have seen Joe Biden walk up to a microphone to deliver a speech, he`s always taken off the mask when about to speak then immediately puts the mask back on as he was leaving. That didn`t happen today.

Today, President Biden and Vice President Harris walked away from the podium after delivering the good news without masks just like Joe Biden and Barack Obama used to walk around the White House grounds.

Later this afternoon, Vice President Harris chaired a meeting of the White House task force of worker organizing and empowerment, and for the first time in a Biden/Harris White House meeting, everyone at the table was able to see each other smile.

Here is how the vice president began that meeting.


KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nice to see you. Literally. Nice to see you.


O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight, Dr. Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health.

Also joining our discussion, John Heilemann, MSNBC national affairs analyst, host and executive producer of Showtime`s "The Circus", and host of "The Hell and High Water" podcast from "The Recount". Also with us, Zerlina Maxwell, host of the program, "Zerlina", which airs on Peacock.

Dr. Jha, let me begin with you. I want to share Kamala Harris` joy today with that phrase "nice to see you." It is going to be a different world we`re living in among -- especially with vaccinated people.

What do you have to add by way of kind of details of behavior that you think we should be aware of now under these guidelines of vaccinated people can basically do what they want without a mask outside and inside?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Yeah, so, Lawrence, first of all, thanks for having me on on this really momentous day. It is a momentous day. It marks a important change in the pandemic.

It means that people who have gotten fully vaccinated can go back to their daily lives the way we knew them before the pandemic. There are a few things that remain, right? I am fully vaccinated, obviously. I would still put on a mask if I was in a super crowded space indoors or maybe even outdoors, in big kind of dense crowds for long periods of time. You just have a different level of exposure, but we`re talking about very rare things that will happen infrequently.

Other than that, I think basically if you`re fully vaccinated, you are good to go in terms of about your daily business. Obviously, we have a lot challenge with a lot of unvaccinated Americans, some of whom have chosen not to get vaccinated, other`s can`t, kids for instance. So, we still have a lot of --


O`DONNELL: Let`s get into this dense version of it. Dr. Fauci said last night when I asked him about outdoors, he said if you`re vaccinated, you don`t need a mask outdoors. Then he added the idea that if you were somehow in a very, very dense crowd outdoors, you would need a mask. And I did not get the sense that he meant Dodger Stadium or Yankee Stadium. I got the feeling that he meant something more like, I don`t know, possibly an outdoor concert where people are almost standing on top of each other.

JHA: That`s right. And part of it is if you are at Fenway Park, for instance, you get a nice breeze going, and the truth is that you`re going to not really be in any way susceptible to somebody else who might be vaccinated a few seats down. It`s not going to be a big deal. And it is again, that very rare instance outdoors.

Indoor concerts, probably higher risk, again, because it`s indoors. It`s one of those things whereas infection numbers fall in our community, even those things will become safer. Right now, if I were going an indoor concert I would put on a mask, but I think that could change over time as well.

O`DONNELL: So, the way it was said today is you don`t need to social distance. That`s the way Dr. Fauci said about outdoors -- you don`t need a mask or to social distance if you`re vaccinated. Does that mean in terms of indoors, a Broadway theater -- "Hamilton" is scheduled to re-open in September at this point. Can they sell every seat now and have people sitting elbow to elbow in the theater?

JHA: They can if everybody there is vaccinated. That`s going to be the challenge. They have two choices. They can make sure everybody`s vaccinated or they can test everyone before they come in.

This is where the whole issue of vaccine passports come in. The government isn`t going to be running programs, but you can imagine the theater owner saying I only want vaccinated people here. I want proof you`re vaccinated. That would make it much easier to sell every seat.

O`DONNELL: John Heilemann, this moment today for Joe Biden for me seemed like for me the most triumphant and possibly the only triumphant moment so far. I mean, getting your legislation passed has a certain history to it. But he got a really giant bill passed a COVID relief bill, and it`s the size that`s so impressive. But that science of getting it done is something he knows how to do.

This was not a promise. This was in the in the 100 of day promise, in the in the 114-day promise that you`ll be taking your mask off if you`re vaccinated on day 114.

This seems to be to me something the country needs to hear, wants to hear, and Joe Biden has been able to deliver it -- it`s taken me by surprise, actually, that this announcement comes now.

JOHN HEILEMANN, MSNBC NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yeah. So, you know, I got my second vaccine shot this week on Tuesday, so, you know, I will remember, I think, for the rest of my life is two days afterwards is when this change happened. I think that`s not a so lop cystic reference. I think it is -- you know, in politics the defining event that was the most impact are not the ones that come on schedule or are not the result of planned effort.

As you said, obviously the COVID bill is a huge accomplishment, but it`s something that, as you said, Joe Biden knows how to do, not from the point of view of being president, but has seen a lot of legislation as vice president. This is a thing that has a cultural, emotional, psychological, human quality to it, where, you know, it signals to people, if you stand up and say, I have 100 million doses deliver in the 100 days, and we doubled that. It`s very abstract to a lot of people. It`s very real, but it`s very abstract.

The thing that in our lives that we have had for the last year plus has been the mask. For those of us who cared about public health, we all wore a mask. So this kind of change I think as a symbolic thing that everybody understands, that everybody will feel.

And that no one is anything but overjoyed by is the kind of thing that a presidency can really be buoyed by. You knew it was going to come someday, but you didn`t necessarily know it would come this soon. It`s going create positive ripples and effects for this administration.

O`DONNELL: And Zerlina, the president specifically spoke to the kind of culture war craziness around masks that developed in this partisan resistance to public health. He said, look, some vaccinated people will want for their own comfort to continue the wear masks. It`s a habit, or there`s other reasons they want to continue to wear masks and be nice to them. He said, you know, if someone`s wearing a mask, treat them with kindness and respect and don`t presume why someone is or isn`t wearing a mask.

ZERLINA MAXWELL, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, when`s the last time we heard that from a president, right? It`s been a number of years since we heard the president lead with the empathy piece first and treating other people with kindness. I cannot imagine Donald Trump having that thought.

So, I think today was -- it felt cathartic to see a government function, and I think one of the things that was so destabilizing over the course of the last four years was to have a government that was so incompetent, and then to face a once in a generation crisis and every day wake up as the crisis is getting worse and feeling like the people that are in charge either don`t care or don`t know what they are doing.

So having the Biden administration come in, and they didn`t make any excused. They frankly could have come in and made excuses as to why things weren`t happening faster, but to set a goal, meet the goal in half the time, double the goal, meet that in under the 100 days, which was the original goal, and now to have a surprise announcement like this one, I think it demonstrates to the American public that the government can function if you put the right people in place.

The government`s not different than it was in the Trump administration. It`s that you have competent leaders in positions of power to pull those levers of government to work on behalf of the American people. And that is a good thing to see. It`s a good thing to know that it`s still possible.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, this really is a triumph of good government.

Dr. Jha, before you go, I have been wondering, so many universities were scheduling virtual commencements again this year or some drastically scaled down version of commencement. According to what we heard today you could go back to a full-scale commencement, couldn`t you?

You`re at Brown University. Does this shake any of Brown`s commencement plans this year?

JHA: Well, we just had our commencement. We did do it outside.

O`DONNELL: Here you go, too late.

JHA: But what it means is in the fall, we`ll have a normal fall with classes and dorms and all the craziness and wonderfulness of a normal fall, and don`t we all just want a normal life back? That`s what this today really signals.

O`DONNELL: Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you on this truly historic and important night for this country. We really appreciate you joining us.

If you have questions about the new CDC guidance on masks, tweet them to #MSNBCanswers. A team of doctors will answer them tomorrow on Craig Melvin reports at 11:00 a.m. Eastern. You don`t want to miss that. All your questions.

Zerlina Maxwell, and John Heilemann are going to stay with us for their analysis of what Joe Biden declared to be his red line today in legislative negotiations with Republicans. That`s next.


O`DONNELL: Today, President Biden continued his push for a bipartisan infrastructure bill by meeting in the Oval Office with six Republican senators led by West Virginia`s Shelly Moore Capito who`s the top Republican on the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, which has jurisdiction over all of the traditional forms of infrastructure like roads, bridges, airports, rail systems and more.

Yesterday, the president had an obviously office meeting about infrastructure with the congressional leaders of both parties and he told me that that meeting was mostly about just agreeing on a definition of infrastructure.


BIDEN: I get into what constitutes infrastructure. I want to make it clear -- I want to get a bipartisan deal on as much as we can get a bipartisan deal on, and that means roads, bridges, broadband, all infrastructure.


O`DONNELL: The Biden infrastructure bill has over $2 trillion of funding for what both parties agree is infrastructure. But the Biden bill has an additional $2 trillion for things like home health care that don`t fit the traditional infrastructure.

Mitch McConnell has said he`s prepared to agree to $800 million in infrastructure. Yesterday, President Biden seemed to say he would take what he can get in an infrastructure bill and go back and fight for the rest.


BIDEN: I`m not giving up on the fact that we have 2 million women not able to go back to work because all the day care centers are closed or out of business and so they can`t go back to work. I`m not going to give up on a whole range of things that go to the question of productivity of increasing jobs, increasing employment, increasing revenues. I`m not willing to give up on that. So, I`m going to fight those up. I want to know, what can we agree on? Kick start this. Fight over what`s left. See if I can get it done without Republicans if need be.


O`DONNELL: Back with us, John Heilemann and Zerlina Maxwell.

And Zerlina, I was given by the White House ten minutes with the president yesterday, and there were so many follow-ups you couldn`t get to, including timetable and all that stuff. But it seems pretty he`s going to try to get whatever that is, $800 million, whatever it is, out of the Republicans on an infrastructure package, get that through the Congress, and then go back for the rest.

MAXWELL: I mean, I think that sounds like a pretty commonsense man to anybody listening, right? I think that his approach to big legislation has been that so far. If you know anything about Joe Biden, which all of us do and especially you, Lawrence, he knows how the Senate works. He understands how get things through.

And in this particular Congress, I think it`s important to say to the American people in that type of setting, look, we need these things. There is a sense of urgency with infrastructure in a way that maybe previously we hadn`t seen that urgency. So, now it`s like, look, we need to get these things done, and I am running the government now, and we`re going to do things on behalf of the American people.

Going back to my point previously about the fact that I think by doing things for the American people and having a results-oriented approach, the Biden administration is sort of proving the point that the government can function if you have the right people in charge.

Meanwhile, you know, Mitch McConnell, he can think he`s going to have, you know, play hardball on the amount of money in the infrastructure package, but the Republicans are a complete mess right now. I mean, they don`t stand for anything. They`re kicking people out who refuse to tell lies.

So, I think Biden`s approach is just going to land right when the American people hear his perspective on this legislation versus what the Republicans are putting up as their -- you know, their plans.

O`DONNELL: John Heilemann, Mitch McConnell in the White House driveway after that meeting said his red line is you cannot touch the Trump tax cuts, so that means none of the tax provisions that Joe Biden currently is using, like an increase in the corporate tax rate, to pay for his bill. The White House issued a statement today after a meeting with Republican senators said President Biden`s red line is getting an infrastructure bill.

HEILEMANN: Yeah. And, Lawrence, I think -- you know, look, what you guys have just been talking about, I think the president wants to do a bipartisan bill in the old-fashion sense. They believe this thing about bipartisanship extending outside Washington into the country. How can they get support for things even if they can`t get Republicans in Congress to sign on?

Joe Biden wants to have old-fashioned bipartisanship, and I think it`s purely as a way to answer the Republican criticism that he talked a big game of bipartisanship and then didn`t do anything.

If they can land a $1 trillion to $2 trillion spending bill on infrastructure on old-fashioned infrastructure, that would be a very strong argument, a way of saying shut up to Republicans who say he doesn`t really mean it on bipartisanship.

But I think that as a political matter it will be a huge win for him and to be able to do -- to basically break this legislation up, I think the challenge is, as McConnell says, McConnell has made clear, the challenge is not going to be on the spending side. The challenge is going to be on the pay-fors and that may be the place where this deal has the hardest time to come together on any element is on the question of -- if it`s going to be bipartisan that is, on the question of the revenues where the Republicans are not going to give an inch.

O`DONNELL: The pay-fors are always the tough part. The president told me yesterday they haven`t discussed the pay-fors yet with Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy yesterday.

Zerlina Maxwell, John Heilemann -- thank you both for joining us tonight.


O`DONNELL: And up next in tonight`s episode of "Defendant Trump", we`ll get Andrew Weissmann`s analysis of the legal implications for Donald Trump with Donald Trump`s White House counsel Don McGahn finally agreeing to testify under oath to the House Judiciary Committee about what Andrew Weissmann believes is the federal crime of obstruction of justice. That`s next.


O`DONNELL: Trump White House counsel Don McGahn is finally going to testify under oath to the House Judiciary Committee about Donald Trump`s attempts to fire special prosecutor Robert Mueller. Does that mean Donald Trump might now be indicted for obstruction of justice in the Mueller investigation?

Our next guest Andrew Weissmann who was one of the lead prosecutors in the Mueller investigation believes Donald Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice. "The Wall Street Journal" is reporting that the Manhattan district attorney has subpoenaed records from a private school where Donald Trump may have paid $500,000 in tuition for the grandchildren of Donald Trump`s accountant Allen Weisselberg.

Does that mean Donald Trump and Allen Weisselberg could be implicated in the tax evasion scheme for that $500,000? And if Donald Trump is indicted by the Manhattan district attorney, can he try to hide out in Florida under the protection of Florida`s Republican governor who might block Donald Trump`s extradition to stand trial as defendant in New York City?

And will Trump imitator, Florida Congressman Matt Gaetz have the worst day of his life on Monday if his friend Joel Greenberg pleads guilty to any of the 33 federal charges he currently faces?

If Joel Greenberg pleads guilty and becomes a cooperating witness in the federal investigation of Matt Gaetz, then Monday is going to be an even worse day for Matt Gaetz than the day he was arrested for drunk driving or the many days that he publicly humiliated himself in the House of Representatives.

If I could choose one person to answer all of those questions it would be Andrew Weissmann who was the head -- who was one of the lead prosecutors in the Mueller investigation.

And joining us now is Andrew Weissmann, former FBI general counsel, and former chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of New York. He is an MSNBC legal analyst and author of "Where Law Ends: Inside the Mueller Investigation".

Andrew, I don`t know if a subway station has moved closer to your home tonight, but I was just hearing what sounded like the rumble of that. We have a big legal docket to try to get through here, but let`s begin with Don McGahn`s testimony which you are the expert on.

What are the legal implications of this for Donald Trump?

ANDREW WEISSMANN, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, your intro was what we call a very long compound question with lots and lots of issues. But starting with Don McGahn, you know, Don McGahn`s testimony will be great to hear what he has to say under oath, except I think the American public should take a deep breath because it`s not going to happen live before them. It`s going to happen first in private, which gives the White House and other people a chance to object if there`s any concern over executive privilege.

But to remind viewers, the reason Don McGahn is so important and as outlined in the Mueller report is Don McGahn was asked by former President Trump to fire Robert Mueller and he refused.

But that`s not really the critical part. It`s that when this came to light and the Washington Post reported on it, Trump said, I want you, Don McGahn, to lie about my requesting that you fire Robert Mueller. And Don McGahn said, I`m not doing that, and he was going to resign.

So a critical question to ask Don McGahn is, like, if you didn`t think he was committing a crime, why were you going up and resign? You know, you don`t do that unless it`s quite serious, I mean he was the White House counsel. And clearly, you know, there was so much he was willing to stomach.

And I think that is going to be what I would say is damaging testimony, but I would not hold my breath also for expecting there to be an obstruction indictment of the former president.

O`DONNELL: Couldn`t the House Judiciary Committee just hand their transcript of this testimony over to the Justice Department with a recommendation for an investigation of some kind of prosecution?

WEISSMANN: They absolutely could. It`s worth remembering that the Justice Department already has that because the Mueller investigation consisted of FBI interviews, including detail notes of those interviews.

So they know exactly what Don McGahn told the FBI as part of the special counsel investigation. Now there will be additional questions. It will be under oath by Don McGahn. But the basic information is something the Justice Department has. So it really is a question for this Justice Department as to whether they`re going to hold a former president to account for what he did.

O`DONNELL: So we`re looking at a possible $500,000 gift in effect from Donald Trump to Allen Weisselberg through some form or other. The IRS gift limit is $15,000. You don`t have the pay taxes on a gift $15,000 or below. But a gift above $15,000, which this sounds like, is a taxable gift. So this looks like an area that could be really problematic.

WEISSMANN: Yes, although I don`t mean to again have cold water on people thinking this might lead directly to a Trump indictment. To me what this is, (AUDIO GAP) district attorney`s office has against Weisselberg.

In other words, he is the one who is receiving the gift. He is the one who has an obligation if he received $500,000 to report it as income on his tax returns. You don`t overlook $500,000 even if you`re very wealthy.

And so to me it signals that the Manhattan district attorney`s office has not yet flipped Weisselberg, and he really will be an important witness if you`re going to make a case on Donald Trump. So I would say this is a good step, but it`s a step to a cooperating witness.

And in your Florida story about Matt Gaetz, that to me is one where they`re even further along, because there, you know, there clearly is going to be a person flipping, and that is the right hand of Matt Gaetz.

And so it is going to be a very bad day next week for him. And that`s a classic prosecutorial move is to flip somebody and have him testify about the inner workings of a criminal conspiracy.

O`DONNELL: You know, I`ve never in my life had occasion to discuss the possibility of someone not being extradited from one state to another among the 50 states. And we`ve run out of time for it tonight. And so we will carry that one.

That case is going to be continued to next week.


O`DONNELL: Andrew Weissmann, thank you very much for joining us, we really appreciate it.

WEISSMANN: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, I was on the steps of the capitol today, and I`m still alive because there were no Trump tourists there today. That`s what a Republican member of Congress is now calling the violent Trump mob that attacked the Capitol -- tourists.

We`ll get Congressman Tim Ryan`s reaction to that next.


O`DONNELL: I was a tourist in our nation`s capitol this afternoon for an hour or two, walking around some of the buildings where I used to work.

Here`s a picture of one of those buildings where they only needed two capitol police officers outside of the building to protect the majestic main entrance of the Capitol. And the reason they only needed those two police officers today is because there were no Trump tourists trying to get into the building.


REP. ANDREW CLYDE (R-GA): Watching the TV footage of those who entered the capital and walked through Statuary Hall showed people in an orderly fashion staying between the stanchions and ropes taking videos and pictures.

You know, if you didn`t know the TV footage was a video from January 6th you would actually think it was a normal tourist visit.


O`DONNELL: That lie was told by Republican Congressman Andrew Clyde in the House hearing yesterday. Today House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said this --


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): A Republican member on the committee said that happened that day was just like normal orderly visits of people to the capitol. Really? Really?

Well, I don`t know on a normal day around here when people are threatening to hang the vice president of the United States or shoot the speaker on the floor or disrupt and injure so many police officers.


O`DONNELL: Today the day after that Republican lie about Trump tourists in the capitol was told, a major in the marine corps became the first active duty military service member to be criminally charged in the January 6th attack on the capital. Marine Corps Major Cristopher (INAUDIBLE) is facing five criminal counts including assaulting police officers, obstruction of law enforcement during a civil disorder, obstruction of justice and obstruction of Congress, knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority, which everyone in the American military knows is a federal crime. And violent entry and disorderly conduct on capitol grounds.

This is the behavior that Republicans in the House of representatives now call a normal tourist visit.

Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio where he`s running for senate in Ohio now. He`s the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee -chairman of the sub committee of house appropriations that has jurisdiction over the Capitol police.

Congressman Ryan, what was your reaction to hearing about those Trump tourists yesterday?

REP. TIM RYAN (D-OH): Appalling, Lawrence, when you think of over 100 police officers were injured, were getting beat upside the head with lead pipes, trampled on, sprayed with pepper spray, you know.

And for them to just dismiss it, for the congressman from Georgia to just dismiss it I think is absolutely appalling. They continue to make the argument to the American people that they`re completely disconnected from reality. Look at the video you`re showing now, and they`re saying that it was just a normal day on Capitol Hill.

How much more disconnected can you be from reality? And I think, you know, we may have to wait for 18 months for the next election, but the vast majority of Americans look at what we`re seeing right now and they think it`s an insurrection that tried to overturn the peaceful transition of power.

And they can say all they want and it may play well in the Republican primary, but it`s not going play in the largest swath of the American electorate.

O`DONNELL: You know, one of the things I asked President Biden about yesterday was, how can you be in serious negotiations with someone like Kevin McCarthy whose word doesn`t mean anything? He gave Liz Cheney his word that he supported her weeks ago and he did support her, but that only lasted for a few weeks before he completely changed sides.

And as you watch these House Republicans try to get more distance on January 6th in the hope that people will forget what it is, they don`t even seem to understand that we have video tape -- we still have the video tape of all of it.

RYAN: Yes, no question. And you know, you give the president credit -- the patience of Joe. You know, he`s out there (INAUDIBLE) -- and I think it`s important, Lawrence, that he does that in spite of the instability, in spite of the irresponsibility, that he reaches out and the American people say look at this gentleman. Look at this decent guy really trying to deal with the country, and these guys in many instances are acting like imbeciles denying what is happening in front of our very eyes. Are you going believe me or your lying eyes?

And The president reaches out. He`s going to pull up just like we did during the Rescue package. I mean if they`re not going to be serious brokers and nr honest brokers, we`ll pull up and we`ll go do the transportation bill and the infrastructure bill without them.

But I think it`s important the American people continue to see what decency looks like, what someone who`s really trying to reach across the aisle looks look like and that`s why he`s at a 63 percent approval rating right now. And Donald Trump and the Republican Party is becoming a smaller and smaller constituency.

O`DONNELL: And as the president continues this public outreach to Republicans in Congress, other Republicans in Congress are saying things like they were tourists, they looked like tourists, on January 6th.

So if no deal comes in the end, no kind of bipartisan deal comes, it will mean that the president couldn`t get a deal with a party that sounds increasingly crazy.

RYAN: Yes. Yes. And that`s exactly it. But he still tried. I mean you really want to be in a position where I think most Americans are going to say, ok, like he`s tried and you guys are talking craziness. You`re in la- la land here.

Some of the things you`re saying, you`ve got members of congress screaming at other members of congress. My wife`s a first grade teacher, Lawrence. I mean this is not how we`re teaching our kids. This is not how we`re raising our children. And we have members of congress out on the House floor where, you know, you getting into it. You`re allowed to have -- that little you know opportunity there to show some emotion.

We`re talking about chasing a member of Congress out of the chamber screaming and yelling. This is just -- they`re in la-la land, Lawrence. I don`t know how else to say it. And they`re isolating themselves from the vast majority of the American people.

President Biden is reaching out. Democrats are reaching out. They don`t want anything to do with it, and we`re going to move on and rebuild this country without them because we got some big issues that we`re trying to deal with and they`re talking craziness that everyone can watch the video and see what actually happened.

You know, we were all watching this, this whole time. Not just Americans, around the world and this gentleman from Georgia saying it was just another tourist activity on Capitol Hill.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Tim Ryan, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Really appreciate it. We`ll be right back.


O`DONNELL: Breaking news tonight. The State Department has raised its travel advisory for Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza and is advising Americans to reconsider all travel to the region due to the ongoing violence throughout the region.

NBC News foreign correspondent Molly Hunter has this update.


MOLLY HUNTER, NBC FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: tonight, the Israeli air force lighting up the sky, pounding the Gaza Strip. While the militant group Hamas has fired almost 2,000 rockets from Gaza into Israeli territory, some even breaking through the iron dome defense system. American-Israeli Maya Diananen (ph) hurts bomb shelter near Tel-Aviv runs to her bombshell as she hears sirens.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re also really safe in here.

HUNTER: In all, seven Israelis have been killed, including a child and a soldier. But in Gaza, Palestinians have nowhere safe to run.

12-year-old Varus calls out, "Daddy". His father and brother killed Tuesday, today he told us, our lives are totally changed. More than 100 Palestinians have been killed, including 27 children. And now the violence is spilling into the streets, a challenge for Israel not seen for two decades. It`s neighbor versus neighbor in mixed Israeli cities between Palestinian Palestinians of Israel and is resident. An Israeli ultra- national`s A mob beating a drive unconscious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re talking about an armed population. They are protected by the police.

So of course, scary. I have two kids.

HUNTER: Tamir Nafar (ph), is a Palestinian resident of the city of Lod. Tonight under military curfew. As the sun went down today, Muslims marked the end of Ramadan. Heartbroken families in Israel and in Gaza burying their dead with no end in sight.


O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s LAST WORD.