Summary:
MSNBC`s coverage of Donald Trump`s second impeachment trial. This is
what the Trump Republican Party has become, the home of Holocaust deniers,
the home of poisonous anti-Semites who believed that Hitler did not execute
enough Jewish people, that six million were not enough. Georgia`s Fulton
county district attorney Fani Willis is conducting an investigation into
Donald Trump`s phone call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad
Raffensperger.
Transcript:
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.
Rachel, I`ve been waiting to see, hear, and I hope someday to talk to Fani
Willis since the story broke in Georgia last month. I remember the first
night we covered it as a possible criminal prosecution of Donald Trump in
Georgia, remember saying then that Fani Willis is on the threshold of
becoming the most famous district attorney in American history, period,
done, because if she ends up being the first and only district attorney in
history who prosecutes a former president of the United States, her place
in history is assured.
The mystery for me as we`ve been covering it, and reading all these
articles about it, is who is she, what is she like, and you answered that
tonight, Rachel. This is someone who knows exactly why she`s investigating
this. She`s very solid and sure about what she`s doing. Very, very
impressive interview in this last hour.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: I was really, really, really psyched to book
her. And credit to my staff, credit, I will -- I`m not supposed to do this,
but credit in particular to a staff member of mine named Valerie who did
incredible work on this. I`m really happy that we got her.
And I was -- that`s kind of as far as I went. I`m not sure that I was
setting expectations in terms of what I expected from the D.A. I was just
prepping for the interview. But, oh my god, like, she --
O`DONNELL: Yeah.
MADDOW: -- blew me away. And I think about this whole part of the future of
Donald Trump as a former president differently now than I did before that
interview. Seeing how grounded she is in the material of this case and what
she has to work with. It`s just, like, it`s -- it has blown my mind.
That very rarely happens to me on live TV with something that I planned to
do on my own show, but I am blown away.
O`DONNELL: It was -- it was great. I really -- I feel like I now understand
this case so much better than just reading what we`ve been reading about
it.
And, Rachel, little historical note, that presidential phone call that she
is investigating as a possible crime occurred the day after she was sworn
in as district attorney. You`re sworn in one day --
MADDOW: Oh, my god, that`s right.
O`DONNELL: -- the next day, the president of the United States makes a
phone call into your jurisdiction and decides, this is a good day to commit
some crime.
MADDOW: That`s a felony.
O`DONNELL: Yeah. Yeah.
MADDOW: That is --
O`DONNELL: Yeah.
MADDOW: That is --
O`DONNELL: An amazing --
MADDOW: -- astonishing.
O`DONNELL: -- role of history for her.
MADDOW: I mean, yes, her future (ph) is incredible.
O`DONNELL: Yeah, really is.
MADDOW: Yeah.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.
MADDOW: And, you know, Lawrence, I will say that -- thank you very much.
Thank you very much. I have to go to collect my thoughts. Yes.
O`DONNELL: No, no, please, please, no, go ahead, Rachel, well -- come on.
You got to finish it. What were you going to say?
MADDOW: Okay. I am very sorry. I am flustered, like I am -- my brain is
going a million miles an hour. I will just say, it now occurs to me that if
you -- whatever happens with the impeachment article in the Senate, with
this Senate trial, we`ll see the president`s defense tomorrow, all those
things.
There are really two specific crimes under the one article as laid out in
the impeachment article. It is the incitement of violence. The incitement
of the violent attack on the Capitol and it is the pressure on Georgia
elections officials to overturn that call.
The latter of those is being investigated as a potential state felony in
Georgia, potentially year in prison for the former president if he is
convicted of that. Charged and convicted of that.
But the other part of it could also be charged locally in Washington, D.C.
Again, by the D.C. district attorney`s office. In the same way that the
Fulton County district attorney`s office is charging the other half of the
impeachment article. And the evidence is just as fresh for criminal
prosecution of these things as it is for the impeachment trial that we`re
seeing now.
And this makes me newly very interested in the prospect that the incitement
part of it, the incitement to violence, incitement to riot, part of it,
could also end up being a serious criminal charge.
O`DONNELL: It seem like the Senate trial is very unlikely to be the last
trial of Donald Trump on these matters.
MADDOW: Yeah. Exactly. I`m sorry to fall all over myself but that`s what I
think.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.
Well, lead House Manager Jamie Raskin named his son, Tommy, after Thomas
Payne. Congressman Raskin told us at the beginning of the Senate trial that
he buried his 25-year-old son, Tommy, the day before the Trump mob attacked
the capitol.
And so in a powerfully poignant final moment on the Senate floor today, you
could feel Congressman Raskin`s two favorite Thomases standing with him as
he quoted Thomas Payne in his last line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): The more difficult the struggle, the more
glorious in the end will be our victory. Good luck in your deliberations.
(END VIDEO LCIP)
O`DONNELL: The more difficult the struggle. Jamie Raskin could not have a
more difficult struggle than trying to convince Republican senators to hold
the Constitution and their oaths of office above their public fealty to
Donald Trump. The more difficult the struggle.
Jamie Raskin is facing another struggle with astonishing dignity and grace.
Norm Ornstein, who lost his son, Matthew, when Matthew was 34, wrote this
today: When I lost my son I was in a fog for weeks nearly paralyzed with
grief. To imagine that Representative Raskin has not just gotten up every
day but has done this master class and constitutional law, philosophy,
logic, patriotism, and more, with eloquence, force, passion, my God, what a
hero.
Yes, there are heroes in that room. There are more cowards in that room.
And those heroes are speaking directly to those cowards in a noble hope of
trying to change their minds. They`re not trying to turn cowards into
heroes. They`re trying to turn cowards into minimally decent human beings
for the first time since those cowards surrendered themselves completely to
Donald Trump.
Congressman Raskin told the cowards what they should be listening for
tomorrow when Donald Trump`s lawyers speak in his defense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RASKIN: We would pose these preliminary questions to his lawyers, which I
think are on everyone`s minds right now, in which would have asked Mr.
Trump, himself, if he had chosen to come and testify about his actions and
inactions when we invited him last week. One, why did President Trump not
tell his supporters to stop the attack on the Capitol as soon as he learned
of it? Why did President Trump do nothing to stop the attack for at least
two hours after the attack began?
As our constitutional commander in chief, why did he do nothing to send
help to our overwhelmed and besieged law enforcement officers for at least
two hours on January 16th after the attack began? On January 6th, why did
President Trump not at any point that day condemn the violent insurrection
and the insurrectionists?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Donald Trump didn`t just refuse to condemn them. He told them
that he loves them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOE NEGUSE (D-CO): When they -- the police -- still barricaded and
being attacked with poles, he said in his video to the people attacking
them, we love you. You`re very special.
What more could we possibly need to know about President Trump`s state of
mind?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: When Donald Trump put out that video saying "we love you" to the
Trump mob attacking the capitol, he had already seen them on television
attacking police officers. And he still said, "we love you". And he never
said, "we love you" to the police officers.
He never said "you are very special" to the capitol police. He has never
said one word of regret about the murder of Officer Brian Sicknick by the
Trump mob. Not one word of sympathy from Donald Trump about Officer Brian
Sicknick killed by the Trump mob.
And what did Donald Trump mean when he said, "we love you." Who is the
"we"? Does the "we" include the Republican cowards in the Senate? We will
find out when they vote on the verdict in this trial.
That vote will tell us if they love the Constitution or if they love Donald
Trump or whatever Donald Trump loves more than the Constitution, including
the mob who invaded the Senate chamber where they all sat today.
We`ve always known that Donald Trump was lying every single time he told
you how much he loves the police, but now we know that the Republican
cowards in the Senate and the House have always been lying about their
support for police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DAVID CICILLINE (D-RI): Listen into how the Trump mob talked to these
officers. You heard that with your own ears.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
CICILLINE: F-ing traitor. So much for backing the blue. Just a couple more
examples.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
CICILLLINE: They called law enforcement officers traitors. You have to
wonder who these rioters sworn to, to whom do they believe the police owe
their loyalty?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Of course, all that profanity was not bleeped live on the Senate
floor today when that was played. And all those profane words will appear
in print in the congressional record where they will live forever.
The Trump mob and the Trump cowards in the House of Representatives and the
Senate do not care about police because they don`t care what happened to
those police officers on January 6th. The Trump cowards in the House of
Representatives and the Senate do not care that Donald Trump got capitol
police officers killed by that mob.
How many capitol police officers does it take to separate the Trump cowards
in the house and the Senate from Donald Trump? We don`t know.
While Donald Trump was watching the capitol being invaded on live
television, he tweeted this: Mike Pence didn`t have the courage to do what
should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving
states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent
inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands
the truth!
And that, that tweet, was one of the many smoking guns that the House
managers exhibited today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEGUSE: The fact that he didn`t stop it, the fact that he incited a lawless
attack and abdicated his duty to defend us from it, the fact that he
actually further inflamed the mob, further inflamed that mob, attacking his
vice president, while assassins were pursuing him in this capitol. More
than requires conviction and disqualification.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Our first guest tonight tried to preside over the House of
Representatives and keep the House in session after Speaker Pelosi was
rushed out of the chamber. That left House Rules Committee Chairman Jim
McGovern as one of the very last members on the House floor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Chairman McGovern was one of the last members to
leave the floor. As he left through the House lobby just after 2:40 p.m.,
he was spotted by the mob.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
SWALWELL: Minutes later, at 2:44 p.m., Ashli Babbitt attempted to climb
through a shattered window into the House lobby. To protect the members in
the lobby, an officer discharged his weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight, Democratic Congressman Jim
McGovern of Massachusetts, he`s the chair of the House Rules Committee.
Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
And I have to ask, that video that we saw of you being that close to the
invaders, had you seen that video before it was presented in the trial?
REP. JIM MCGOVERN (D-MA): I did see it before. A "Washington Post"
journalist had shared it with me, but it`s a moment I`ll never forget as
long as I live.
O`DONNELL: And what were you feeling as you were looking -- seeing the mob
that close to you?
MCGOVERN: Well, first, I was in disbelief because I couldn`t believe that a
mob that size could reach the United States Capitol.
And then my other emotion was one of sadness and one of anger. You know,
that these -- that this mob of white supremacists, of neo Nazis, of
homegrown fascists, stormed the Capitol, were breaking a glass window that
leads into the speaker`s lobby, and I looked right into their eyes and I
saw hate.
And I knew that these weren`t protesters, that these people weren`t here to
make a political point, that they weren`t here to hand me a leaflet. They
were here to kill us, and they were here to destroy and desecrate the
United States Capitol.
And, so, you know, my feeling then was, how dare you? How dare you do this
to the United States Capitol? How dare you threaten my colleagues, the
staff, the people who support the Capitol, the cafeteria workers, everybody
who was there?
And I`m still angry, to be honest with you, and I`m angry at them. I`m
angry at Donald Trump for inciting this mob to attack the Capitol. And I`m
angry at some of my colleagues who gave oxygen to Donald Trump`s big lie,
to -- that created a culture that resulted in this terrible insurrection,
you know, that took place on January 6th.
O`DONNELL: When I -- when I hear your anger, which is so perfectly
understandable, I`m sure that that is a very common feeling in the House,
and yet when I see the House managers on the Senate floor, they are
handling this so professionally under these circumstances. They must have
found a place to put their anger before going out there.
MCGOVERN: They`re incredible. I`m proud of all of them. I mean, and they
have presented the case in the way it should be presented. They`ve stuck to
the facts. They`ve told the truth.
And quite frankly, the facts are irrefutable. Donald Trump incited this mob
to attack the Capitol, to threaten the lives of all those who were there
including his vice president and the other fact he is did nothing when the
attack began. I mean, he basically sat and watched as they ushered his vice
president out to safety.
I mean, he basically turned his back at a moment when his vice president
could have been murdered, and what a disgusting individual to even -- to
allow that to happen. And, again, I hope that the Senate will vote to
convict. I mean, to me, this is an open-and-shut case. I don`t know where
the gray area is here. The evidence is overwhelming.
O`DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, when I saw the vote in the House on impeachment, I
realized a certain -- at a certain moment in the vote clock as it was
ticking down, look at the numbers and how many Republicans, that really it
wasn`t a vote on the evidence. It wasn`t a vote on what they -- for the
Republican side. It wasn`t a vote on what they actually experienced on
January 6th. It was a vote about who the Republican Party is in the House
of Representatives. That`s the way it felt to me.
Is that the way it feels to you now when you look at the Senate, that
what`s on trial is not the evidence, but what`s on trial is the Republican
side of the United States Senate?
MCGOVERN: I think that`s an accurate description. Look, the evidence is
overwhelming. We know what happened. We know who`s responsible.
The issue is whether enough Republicans have the guts and the courage and
the love of country to do the right thing. I mean, there too many
Republicans who feel they need to genuflect to the altar of Donald Trump.
They`re still afraid of him. And it really is disheartening.
I mean, there are people who I`ve worked who have I have respect for who
caved, who voted to not certify the election results, who voted to
basically acquit him when we had the impeachment vote in the House.
They did so not because they think he`s innocent, not because they think
he`s a great man or a good president. They did so out of fear. And that is
really disappointing to me.
Donald Trump is a criminal. And what he did in terms of inciting that crowd
to attack the United States Capitol, to threaten the lives of so many
people -- people died. People died. Blood is on this president`s hands. And
to do nothing, how dare he?
And for the United States Senate to acquit him, for Republicans not to do
the right thing, is really disgraceful.
Now, look, there was some Republicans who we know will never it the right
thing -- Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley.
Quite frankly, you know, they look at this differently because if they met
face-to-face with the mob on January 6th, they had no fear for their lives.
They would have been embraced. They would have been cheered. The rest of us
would have been killed.
But, you know, they approached this from the point of view that Donald
Trump approached it. You know, maintain power at all costs. No matter what
it means, no matter how many lives.
And so, I hope and pray that the Senate will do the right thing, but our
House managers presented a case that I thought was impeccably argued and
I`m incredibly proud of them. And I`m especially proud of my friend, Jamie
Raskin, who I serve on the Rules Committee with. He`s an incredible human
being.
O`DONNELL: Certainly is.
Mr. McGovern of Massachusetts, thank you very much for leading us off
tonight. We really appreciate it, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
MCGOVERN: Be safe.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Coming up, former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance will join us with her take
on today`s Senate impeachment trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D-CO): On January 6th, we know who lit the fuse. Donald
Trump told these insurrectionists to come to the Capitol and stop the
steal. And they did come to the Capitol. And they tried to stop the
certification. They came because he told them to.
RASKIN: There`s no merit whatsoever to any of the free speech rhetoric, the
empty free speech rhetoric you may hear from President Trump`s lawyers. He
attacked the first amendment. He attacked the Constitution. He betrayed his
oath of office. Presidents don`t have any right to do that. It`s forbidden.
NEGUSE: He reacted exactly the way someone would react if they were
delighted and exactly unlike how a person would react if they were angry at
how their followers were acting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now, Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney.
She`s a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law and MSNBC
legal contributor. And she is the co-host of the podcast, "#sistersinlaw."
Joyce, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
And with your local experience, I don`t want to presume to guide you, I
just want to open it up for, give us your highlights of what you saw in the
Senate trial today.
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think the first thing we have to
say, Lawrence, is that this was a real prosecutorial dream team, seasoned
professionals through and through. Just about the facts and the law with an
elegant presentation that will create the record for history that we need
of these events.
But the ultimate takeaway here, I think this is your comment, the Senate is
actually on trial here and the prosecutors very deliberately gave senators
the option that they could be in the Trump camp, that they could be part of
the insurrection or there was a possibility for Republicans and Democrats
alike to stand up for what was good in our country and to say, you cannot
do this, you cannot tell the big lie. You cannot threaten the Georgia
secretary of state. You cannot bring the crowd to D.C. on January 6th. You
cannot set them on the Capitol. You cannot stand by and do nothing as they
overrun the Capitol.
And making the point which I think is the ultimate argument and so
compelling, if the Senate votes to acquit former President Trump, all of
that conduct, that entire series of circumstances, is something that a
future president can do or that president Trump could do if he runs again.
It`s a compelling argument for conviction.
O`DONNELL: Joyce, were you able to find in this presentation the single
thing that you would end your closing argument on and in that last moment
in this trial which is coming for Jamie Raskin?
VANCE: I wouldn`t presume to be half of the prosecutor that Jamie Raskin is
because it -- what he did today was word perfect. You know, his invocation
of Thomas Payne and summer soldiers and making the point that it`s easy to
stick up for democracy when the going is easy, but now the going is tough.
That`s a brilliant point.
But I think where they`re likely headed with this is the most compelling
piece of evidence, the evidence that Trump intended precisely the outcome
that he got here was his long-term insistence of winning at any cost, but
the fact that he sat silent and did nothing for so many hours as Congress
was being overrun, that he let the Capitol Police go to great risk. You
know, he was watching it on TV like everybody else.
We know he had a call with Tommy Tuberville, and he knows that Mike Pence
was ushered very quickly out of the Senate and the rest of the senators had
to leave. He knew precisely what was going on and he did nothing.
There is no possible scenario under which that`s not a violation of a
president`s oath of office, and I suspect we`ll hear a lot more about that
when the Democrats close.
O`DONNELL: Joyce Vance, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
VANCE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thanks.
And after this break, John Heilemann and Professor Eddie Glaude will join
us to consider who and what is really on trial in the United States Senate
this week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): President Trump`s lack of remorse shows that he will
undoubtedly cause future harm if allowed. Because he still refuses to
account for his previous high-grade crime against our government.
You know, I`m not afraid of Donald Trump running again in four years. I`m
afraid he`s going to run again and lose because he can do this again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining our discussion now: John Heilemann, the host and
executive producer of Showtime`s "The Circus" and host of the "Hell and
High Water" podcast from The Recount. And also with us, Professor Eddie
Glaude Jr., chair of the Department of African-American studies at
Princeton University. Both are MSNBC analysts.
Professor Glaude, let me start with you and what we just heard from
Congressman Lieu. That notion of the real thing to fear in Donald Trump
running again would be what would happen if he lost.
PROFESSOR EDDIE GLAUDE, JR. MSNBC ANALYST: Absolutely. The continued
challenge to the legitimacy of our democratic process. We saw when he ran
against Hillary Clinton that he did this. We saw this in this moment that
there is this congoing effort on his part to delegitimize the basic
elements, the foundations of our democratic process. So, I thought that was
a very powerful point, a very powerful point.
But I want to pick up something really quickly, Lawrence, that you
mentioned with Chairman McGovern and with Joyce. And that is who`s --
what`s on trial, who`s on trial in this moment, right? And I`m reminded
September of 1955 and I want you to bear with me for a second
Remember the trial of the murderers of Emmett Till, it wasn`t about the
facts. According to the jurors, and according to Blunt and Neelam, it was
about what was at stake was a way of life. So, we -- I mean, everything
that the managers presented today just seems spot-on to me.
But the facts don`t matter. It seems to me that the senators, Republican
side, that they are in some ways defending a way of life. And that`s what
we need to see that there are two Americas that are on full view in this
moment. And we see one side defending one version of America and another
side defending another if that makes sense.
O`DONNELL: Yes, exactly.
And John, to that point, the sides are also the pro-Capitol police side and
the "we don`t care about the Capitol police" side. We don`t care how many
get killed when Donald Trump sends his mob up to the Capitol.
JOHN HEILEMANN, MSNBC ANALYST: Right. Lawrence, this is like -- for the
Republicans who -- who are, we think -- again, I keep saying that we have
to be open to the possibility that some minds will be changed and that
we`ll end up with more Republican votes. Let`s hope and pray, given the
strength of the case that the prosecution`s put forward and what we know
now, what the defense is going to look like tomorrow from the president`s
team.
It`s going to be, you know, the clear right outcome here is pretty obvious,
but if we end up where we think we`re going to end up, we will have a
Republican Party in the senate saying they don`t care about Capitol police,
saying they don`t care about the whole history of Republican legal thought.
They`ll be rejecting originalism, constitutionalism, framers`, founders`
intent, original intent. All the things Republicans said they believe
because they all are going to claim that this is an unconstitutional
process.
They`ll be not caring about that, not caring about their integrity,
ideology, and electoral consistency, the facts, the truth. All of the --
they`re saying they don`t care about all that. All they`ll be saying they
care about is their own careers.
They have convinced themselves that to go against Donald Trump would be to
imperil their careers and so they will look away from everything else and
pledge oath to Donald Trump and really by doing so pledge oath to Donald
Trump`s voters because they think that`s the only way that they can keep
their jobs.
I think they`re wrong in that assessment but we can talk more that but, I
mean it`s incredible display of vacuousness but also stupidity because I
think we`ve learned now that Donald Trump was loyal to no one but Donald
Trump as his behavior towards Mike Pence so vividly laid out by the
prosecutors yesterday and today makes clear.
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Senator Bill Cassidy had to say. He`s one
of the six Republican senators who voted to have this trial. This was after
today`s trial session.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): I still have people back home who swear that
the Dominion machines were rigged, even though -- even though different
news outlets have printed retractions, apologies, and otherwise
disassociated themselves from that story.
But obviously, the president repeated it over and over. That clearly had an
impact. So when the point was made, people felt as if they had no recourse
because their vote was being stolen. Well, the president built that story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Professor Glaude, he seems to be able to evaluate the evidence
clearly. He doesn`t have the impediments that apparently the cowardly side
of the Republican Party has.
GLAUDE: Right. So, there is this openness to the facts. He`s willing to be
convinced. He`s in some ways fulfilling his oath. But then you contrast
that with what we heard -- what we read in Lindsey Graham`s tweet about the
profane -- how profane and absurd this was. Right?
So, I think it`s really important for us to understand. I think John -- you
know, the self-interested politician may very well be the generous read. It
may very well be the case that these folks are self-interested, and they
are committed to the world view that is being put forward by those who
sacked the capitol.
And I think that`s what we have to get at. What is motivating this? I don`t
think it`s just simply fidelity to Trump. I don`t think it`s just -- I
think it`s, obviously, self-interest.
But I think what we are confronting here is a clashing of two Americas. A
dying America that is clinging to life and a new America that`s trying to
be born. And I think we need to, you know, dive deep into the substance of
that difference in this moment.
O`DONNELL: John, the Republican Party is now a party that knows it cannot
win the big elections if everyone has a fair chance to vote. They know they
are outnumbered. They`ve become the anti-democratic party -- anti-democracy
party. And they might just be at the point where they`ll take the fight
wherever the fight goes. And one day, the fight happened to go into the
Capitol. But it`s a fight against democracy that they will continue to
fight in other ways.
HEILEMANN: Yes. Think that`s right. And to Eddie`s point, I don`t dispute
Eddie`s deeper analysis. I think we`re saying -- this is are the and/both
situation as opposed to either/or situation.
I think, you know, this is the demography -- you know, Eddie has a moral
layer on top of the demography, which again I agree with. But in the purely
political terms, the older America, the dying America, is the America that
is the white America, the white grievance America more particularly.
And Republicans had a chance coming out of 2012, they told themselves that
they needed to modernize the party and try to open themselves up to non-
white voters. They made a choice with Donald Trump to go in the opposite
direction.
And now as you say, Lawrence, they are -- they are fighting democracy
itself, and the tide of that that`s attached to the changing America. So,
yes, I think that`s right.
I think they have an increasingly -- it`s a path to political suicide, is
what it is, and that gets back to why I also think they`re such idiots to
be going down this path because I think it`s ultimately self-defeating.
It`s going to consign them to permanent minority status if they go this
way.
O`DONNELL: John Heilemann and Professor Eddie Glaude, thank you both for
joining our discussion tonight.
HEILEMANN: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And when we come back, the Republican cowards in the Senate cast their
votes -- when they cast their votes at the end of this trial, they won`t
just be voting for Donald Trump. They`ll be voting in support of the racism
and anti-Semitism that filled the Capitol on January 6th. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prejudiced elements could be seen visibly in the
attack -- the crowd that attacked the capitol. Pictured here is Robert
Packer. Robert Packer is an avowed white supremacist and Holocaust denier
who proudly wore that sweatshirt which states quote: Camp Auschwitz.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: This is what the Trump Republican Party has become, the home of
Holocaust deniers, the home of poisonous anti-Semites who believed that
Hitler did not execute enough Jewish people, that six million were not
enough.
The Trump Republican Party is the home of the mob who rampaged through the
capitol screaming the n word repeatedly, endlessly, at black Capitol police
officers. In the 1950`s a Trump-like Republican senator Joseph McCarthy was
famously challenged with the question, have you no decency?
That same question can now be asked of the entire Republican Party. Our
next guest hosted a conference call of over 120 Republican former
government officials who have been considering whether the Republican Party
should be saved or should be abandoned in favor of a new party.
Joining us now is Evan McMullin, executive director of Stand Up Republic.
Evan, thank you very much for joining us tonight. You`ve worked for
Republicans in government and House of representatives, elsewhere.
What was this call like to be taking place now with this Republican former
president on trial in the senate, where every single bit of the evidence is
so fully condemning and yet, and yet, you`re looking at a Republican senate
that seems to be leaning toward forgiving Donald Trump for all of this.
EVAN MCMULLIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, STAND UP REPUBLIC: Well, Lawrence, thank
you for having me on.
And really, you just painted a picture that describes the impetus for the
meeting, for the gathering. I think, you know, together all of us are
looking at these circumstances. Looking at Donald Trump`s presidency. The
history of the four years of that presidency. How it really all led to
January 6th.
And then to see that violent -- that deadly insurrection happen that
threatened our democracy and then to watch a majority of House Republicans
still vote to overturn the results of the election, and then to watch all
of this additional evidence come to light and to still learn that Senate
Republicans will overwhelmingly vote to protect the president, even though
he committed -- or even though he led a violent insurrection to overturn an
election so that he could stay in power.
All of that just describes, of course, a party that is sick. That is rotten
to the core. Are there good Republicans out there? Look, I know some, but
there are -- they`re all deeply disturbed by what`s happening and
uncomfortable with the direction of the party and demanding something new.
For the last four to five years, many of us have fought for a new
direction. We were 10 percent to 15 percent of the party. Now we`re at 25
percent or 30 percent of the party that think it`s time for something new.
And so we gathered people from the Bush, Reagan, even from the Trump
administrations -- people in elected office and now Republicans in elected
office, recently -- people who`ve recently retired as well, 120 top
political and intellectual Republicans, intellectual leaders in the
Republican space, to talk about a new direction.
And we debated about whether it should be a faction within the party or
independent of the party. A pro-democracy faction to try to pull the party
back, or pull the party to a position of, you know, committed to our
founding values, committed to our democracy.
Or whether we need to start something entirely new. A new party.
O`DONNELL: It looks like your section of the party is represented by five
or six Republicans in the United States Senate and so even though you may
represent a larger amount of the actual Republican voting population,
you`re certainly not represented in the congress.
MCMULLIN: Well, that`s absolutely right. And, Lawrence, as you and many of
your viewers understand the reason why that is a reality is that our
primary systems are such that the base primary voter of the Republican
Party is -- they are supporting Trump-like candidates. And so those of us
who occupy a smaller part of the party can`t get our candidates through the
primary process in most cases, so we are not represented.
And that`s also what is an impetus for our meeting, for our gathering on
Friday and for the additional steps that we`re going to take. You know, the
party simply does not represent us, does not represent people, Republicans,
conservatives who are committed to democracy, committed to our founding
values, committed to truth, reason and decency.
And so, you know, we`ve got to continue our fight. Our fight is -- some of
us have been fighting for four and five years but now we have more joining
us and that`s a positive thing.
O`DONNELL: Evan McMullin, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
MCMULLIN: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thanks.
Well, you saw Fani Willis in the last hour with Rachel in her first
television interview about the investigation of Donald Trump that she is
conducting as the district attorney of Fulton County, Georgia. We have been
covering this story all of last month.
Michael J. Moore will join us next. He is a former U.S. attorney in
Georgia. He has been analyzing this case for us, and now we have the new
information that we heard from Fani Willis tonight with Rachel. We`ll be
back with that discussion right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Here is Georgia`s Fulton county district attorney Fani Willis,
making news with Rachel Maddow just an hour ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: The way your investigation has been reported in
the press as I understand it is that it is centered on but not limited to
this phone call that former President Trump made to Georgia secretary of
state Brad Raffensperger. Is that a fair way to understand it?
FANI WILLIAMS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I`ve been in
this business now for 25 years, 19 of those years have been spent as a
prosecutor.
What I know about investigations is they`re kind of like peeling back an
onion. And as you go through each layer you learn different things. To be a
responsible prosecutor you must look at all of those things in
investigation to be fair to everyone involved.
This is a very important matter as you`ve already highlighted. And so, yes,
the investigation seems that it will go past just this one phone call that
we`ve discussed and that you played for your viewers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Michael J. Moore, former U.S. Attorney for the
middle district of Georgia. Michael, you were here just the other night
when the secretary of state announced an investigation.
You said on this program you didn`t like that very much. You thought it
would be better handled by the district attorney. The day after you said
that District Attorney Fani Willis announces that she`s doing the
investigation that the way you thought she should.
It seems she was clearly already underway with this, but what was your
reaction to tonight`s interview?
MICHAEL J. MOORE, FORMER GEORGIA U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, I thought she gave a
good interview, and I`m glad she watches the show and maybe she took some
advice. I do think she needs to move forward with the investigation.
I think that she`s right, that she`s probably the most non-compromised
elected official and investigative agency to do that. I think there are
real problems as I mentioned to you the other night about having the state
attorney general involved.
This is a Georgia crime. The law allows for this case to be investigated in
Fulton County, and I think it`s the right move.
I think she`s wise to take a slow approach to the investigation. That is
she referenced peeling back the onion. And I do think that an investigation
whether you talk about it being like an onion or pulling on a piece of
cloth -- pulling on a thread on a piece of cloth and the whole thing
starting to unravel. I think that`s what you see with a methodical
investigation and hopefully she`ll do that.
O`DONNELL: Look, Michael, the language of the statutes is so clear that
it`s very obvious that Donald Trump violated them. And so this
investigation although it may go slow, it doesn`t seem to have very
significant roadblocks in front of it.
You know, the unique thing about this case is that you essentially start
with a confession.
O`DONNELL: Yes, you do.
(CROSSTALK)
MOORE: You`ve got this hour-long phone call that really lays out the case.
And you hear him, essentially the former president threatening the
secretary of state with criminal prosecution or that bad things were going
to happen to him.
And this is just the language of a mob boss, and there`s -- you can listen
to about any tape of an organized crime case or a drug distribution ring
and you hear this kind of language. So she starts with that.
And that gets pretty close to solving our closing out the day on the
investigation for interference with the official performance of a
secretary`s duties in this case. And so I really think that that part puts
her head and shoulders above where she would be if she were to start from
scratch.
He just made a bad decision to call into a state where one party can record
a call without consent and to get in front of a prosecutor who`s at least
willing to take a look at his efforts to commit election fraud.
O`DONNELL: Luckily for the truth Donald Trump has consistently had very bad
advice around him.
Michael J. Moore, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I`m sure
we`re going to be hearing from you again on this case. We really appreciate
it.
MOORE: I`m always glad to be with you, thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
That is tonight`s LAST WORD.
"THE 11TH HOUR WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS" starts now.
END
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