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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 12/2

Guests: Hakeem Jeffries, Roy Cooper, Eric Swalwell, David Frum, Debbie


Interview with Democratic Governor Roy Cooper of North Carolina. "I wanted him to win," says Vladimir Putin, the leader of the Russian attack on the 2016 presidential election, an attack aimed at helping Donald Trump win the presidency. Congress passed resolution to avoid government shutdown. Interview with Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY). Interview with Governor Roy Cooper of North Carolina.



And Stacey Abrams is off and running, and she started the campaign in the right place, "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW".

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: You know, she is -- I was not -- in all of the parlor games about what will Stacey Abrams do next, I definitely did not think what she would do was run for governor again.

But in talking to her about it and reading everything I read about the decision, it really seems that is the job she has always wanted. That is her dream job. She is devoted to Georgia.

She has spent her entire political career in Georgia and worked in every possible aspect of it. She`s been the Democratic leader there in the legislature. That`s what she wants to do, and I think she`s going to keep going for it until she gets it.

O`DONNELL: You know, I gave up a long time ago trying to guess what people in her position will do next. As soon as I heard it, it made perfect sense. It seemed like, of course. If you`d ask me two days before I would have said I don`t know, I have no idea. But the second I heard it, like oh, yeah, that`s exactly what she should be doing.

MADDOW: And it`ll be really interesting to see a campaign in Georgia next year when Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock are the senators there. I mean, they`ve got a Republican legislature, this very, very conservative Republican governor who wants to run for re-election, but he`s got the whole Trump wing of the party against him. I mean, the dynamics are nutty even just internally within the Republican Party. But you add in these very interesting, very talented Democratic politicians up and down the line, too, and it`s just -- it`s just going to be the best possible race in the country and going to spend tons of time covering it.

O`DONNELL: And Senator Warnock is going to be running for re-election. He`s going to be running for reelection.

And so, you have right now the two most high profile races of the year both in Georgia.

MADDOW: Yeah, with these two unbelievably talented, charismatic black leaders who happen to be from the same state, who happen to be from the same generation, who happen to be on the ballot at the same time.

But both Raphael Warnock and Stacey Abrams are Democratic leaders of national stature, and they`re going to be running in that same fishbowl, hopefully running campaigns that are copacetic and mutually beneficial.

Georgia has so much Democratic Party talent right now, and they`re so good at what they`ve done. And they`ve been so great at registering voters and all the rest of it. But in the middle of that maelstrom in terms of Trump contesting that election and going after all the Republicans who didn`t help him cheat, it`s going to be crazy.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, and there seems to be something dynamic when they have the two very high profile races happening at the same time that seems to add to voter turnout in a way that possibly the single race wouldn`t quite reach.

MADDOW: Think about it. I mean, if you`re a Democratic voter in Georgia, and you`re like not a particularly devoted voter and maybe you only turn out for the big races or whatever, next year if you have a chance to vote for both Raphael Warnock and Stacey Abrams on the same ballot, you`re probably going to turn out. You know what I mean?

It`s like if you`re on the academy -- you know, the motion picture board of whatever it is, the people in the Oscars and you`re like do you want to vote on Bogart and McCaul or would you rather sit it out this year? These are leading lights.

O`DONNELL: Rachel Maddow on Oscar voting, we`re going have to devoted more time to that, because I know that`s your expertise.

MADDOW: I don`t even know what the body is that votes. The Academy, people, the movie. Oscar -- there`s a man named Oscar.

O`DONNELL: Is it a roll call vote? All right.

MADDOW: Do we have a quorum? Yes.

O`DONNELL: Exactly. Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

A complete and total melt down. Those are the words that Democratic Congressman Hakeem Jeffries used to describe what is happening on the Republican side of the House of Representatives. Today, dozens of House Democrats called on the Republican house leader, Kevin McCarthy, to strip Republican congresswoman of her committee assignments after making repeated anti-Muslim attacks against Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.


And, of course, Kevin McCarthy remains completely silent. The silence of the coward.

In a statement, those Democrats say: We refuse to standby as Islamophobia, anti-blackness, anti-immigrant sentiment and xenophobia are trafficked into the halls of Congress by members of the Republican Party.

In an exclusive interview yesterday, Congresswoman Omar told Mehdi Hasan why this rhetoric is so dangerous.


REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): What I am afraid for is that this kind of rhetoric is going to get people killed as it has before, and if we do not stem it out and if we do not strongly condemn it, and if we do not come together as a country and say what is happening and the example that is being set by members of Congress, it`s wrong and it`s dangerous. Then, you know, I really am scared for what is to come.


O`DONNELL: The anti-Muslim attacks have led to in-fighting among Republicans, especially between Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace and Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene. Marjorie Taylor Greene, of course, was stripped of her committee assignments for comments that she has made.


REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): What it says to me is if you say something that`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crazy, you say something extreme, you`re going to raise money. And that is the only reason that she does that. I mean she`s a grifter of the first order, and she does it to raise money. She takes advantage of vulnerable Americans and vulnerable conservatives and makes promises she cannot keep.


O`DONNELL: Republican Congresswoman Mace also said this about Marjorie Taylor Greene. She`s a grifter. She lies to grift, and it`s not okay. She is pulling the wool over so many eyes, so many vulnerable people, lying to them like she`s fighting for them.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries said this.


REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): What more does Kelvin McCarthy need to see? I mean, what more does this guy really need to see? He`s got Marjorie Taylor Greene completely out of control, Gosar out of control, Lauren Boebert out of control.

They`re having a complete and total meltdown. Instead of focusing on the problems of the American people, they are attacking each other. It`s not a three-ring circus. It`s a four-ring malignant circus. And the so-called leader has no control over what`s happening.


O`DONNELL: This morning, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi lost her patience when a reporter asked her and not congressional Republicans to explain to American voters why the federal government was this morning facing once again the looming threat of a government shutdown.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: How do they explain to the public that they`re shutting down government because they don`t want people to get vaccinated? Why don`t you go ask them? This is so silly. This is so silly that we have people who are anti-science, anti-vaccination saying they`re going to shutdown government over that. And you`re asking me, what`s our message?

Our message is that we have to respect governments and we have to respect science, and that`s what we are doing.


O`DONNELL: Tonight, the shutdown was averted once again when Democrats in the House and the Senate once again did the responsible thing and passed legislation to fund the government until February 18th. And today, the Biden White House announced an aggressive new strategy to fight COVID this winter and the new variant as more cases of the new variant were identified today in Minnesota, Colorado, New York, California, and Hawaii.

President Biden`s plan includes a new campaign to speed up booster shots for all adults, launching hundreds of family vaccination clinics to get more school age children vaccinated, and also free at-home tests that will be covered by private health insurance.

The administration also announced new protocols for travelers entering the United States. "The Wall Street Journal" reports that international travelers coming to the United States will have to be tested within a day of departure regardless of vaccination status rather than the 72 hours currently required for vaccinated travelers.

Mr. Biden said, the new testing rules will take effect on Monday, December 6th. According to a senior administration official who said airline industry representatives were notified at the timing Thursday, the requirements apply both to U.S. citizens and foreign nationals flying into the United States.

Here is President Biden today.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My plan I`m announcing today pulls no punches in the fight against COVID-19. And it`s a plan I think should unite us. We knew there`d be cases of Omicron here in the United States, and it`s here. But we have the best tools, the best vaccines in the world and the best medicine and the best scientists in the world. We`re going to fight this variant with science and speed, not chaos and confusion.


O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. He`s the chair of the House Democratic Caucus.

Congressman Jeffries, we out here watching you there in the Capitol doing your jobs, do so with a certain wonder about how you can do it, how you can maintain your patience, how you can go through the day attempting to govern using the normal tools of governing while there is this utterly crazy group of people -- not all the Republicans in the House -- but a very substantial number of Republicans in the House, as you put it, out of control.

JEFFRIES: Good evening, Lawrence. Always a pleasure to be with you.

The cult is totally out of control and we don`t have a functional two-party system in America right now. We`ve got Democrats. We`ve got a handful of reasonable Republicans, and then we`ve got people who continue to bend a knee to the cult of Donald Trump.

What keeps us going, however, is the fact that the challenges facing the American people are so significant. We have work to continue to do to crush this virus. Joe Biden, our president, has been an amazing leader in that regard. She stood up a very strong and robust public health infrastructure, one of the reasons why he`s prepared and America is prepared to deal with this new Omicron variant. But there`s still more work to be done in that regard.

We, of course, passed the bipartisan infrastructure to fix our crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, our airports, mass transportation system, bring about universal broadband access so necessary in the midst of a pandemic where everyone needs access to high-speed Internet. It`s the urgency of the issues.

And of course, finally, getting the Build Back Better Act over the finish line and protecting voting rights. It will be nice if we had partners on the other side of the aisle to try to tackle s of these challenges we`re facing as Americans. But we don`t. And so we proceed onward, thankful for the leadership of President Biden.

O`DONNELL: What I`ve noticed in what Republican Congresswoman Mace was saying about Republican Congresswoman Greene is it sounded exactly like, and I mean exactly like what Marco Rubio was saying about Donald Trump when he was running against him for president, what Ted Cruz was saying about Donald Trump when he was running against him for president. And we`ve seen both of those men completely shrink and shrivel and melt into door mats for Trump, slavishly devoted to Donald Trump.

It doesn`t seem like that`s where this is going with Congressman Mace. She`s calling Greene a grifter. She`s using language that you can`t pull back.

JEFFRIES: She was part of the first group of women that graduated from the Citadel in South Carolina. She represents a somewhat diverse district. She flipped a blue seat, made it red in 2020.

I think she`s a woman of integrity but also someone who recognizes that politically, her constituents are not the type to embrace the radical right Republican rhetoric that we`re hearing from members like Marjorie Taylor Greene or Lauren Boebert or Paul Gosar and the rest of the deplorable group that is so predominant now on the other side of the aisle.

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to something Liz Cheney said about Jeffrey Clark and his intention to take the Fifth Amendment when he testifies to the January 6th Committee on Saturday. This is very important business of the House, and let`s listen to the way Representative Cheney sees this.



REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Mr. Clark last night indicated that he intends to invoke the fifth amendment privilege against self-incrimination apparently because he believes testimony about his interactions with President Trump would tend to incriminate him, and thus may subject him to criminal prosecution. We will depose Mr. Clark on Saturday, and at that point, we will know exactly what testimony Clark believes may incriminate him. We are making rapid progress.

We anticipate next year, we will be conducting multiple weeks of public hearings, setting out for the American people in vivid color exactly what happened every minute of the day on January 6th.


O`DONNELL: And so what`s so striking about that is that the time they want from him is basically his exchanges with Donald Trump. And he`s saying that he believes it`s possible that some of his answers to those questions could lead to him being charged with federal crimes.

JEFFRIES: And I expected that absolutely could be the case. I mean, Donald Trump and all of the president`s men make Richard Nixon and his group look like choir boys. And the January 6th commission operating in a bipartisan fashion is going to continue to follow the facts, apply the law, be guided by the Constitution, let the truth fall where it may and then present nothing but the entire truth to the American people.

And I think it`s going to be deeply troubling when that is revealed. And so clearly, Jeffrey Clark is already signaling perhaps that crimes may have been committed either by himself or in partnership with others. And that`s why he`s not saying anything. He`s clamming up.

And by the way, it is Donald Trump who said only guilty people plead the fifth. Now, I respect the presumption of innocence, but this is Donald Trump`s own standard of what may be signaling criminality.

O`DONNELL: Before you go, I just want to get your reaction to where we stand tonight in your state of New York dealing with this new COVID variant. President Biden wants new rules on people entering the country through JFK airport, one of the principal ports that you have in your state. Governor Hochul has already said that the state needs -- is stepping up in terms of dealing with this new variant, which has now been discovered in multiple cases in the state of New York as we knew that it would be.

Are you confident that the governor and the president have the right approach to this?

JEFFRIES: I think the governor and President Biden have shown extraordinary leadership and are prepared for this moment. They, of course, have to be flexible to see where the science leads us. There`s still a lot of information that we need to acquire from the data, and I know the public health professionals are hard at work.

But I think I just urge the American people to remain vigilant. Make sure you`ve been vaccinated. If you`ve been vaccinated, make sure that you get your booster shot and continue to rely upon the advice and guidance being presented by the public health professionals.

And collectively together New Yorkers and America, we`re going to get through this. We have great leadership. The best is yet to come, and when we pass the Build Back Better Act, millions of good paying jobs are on the way, lower taxes for working families and lower costs in areas like child care and health care and affordable housing.

This great country of ours is in good hands, and I`m thankful for that.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for starting off our conversations tonight. Really appreciate it.

JEFFRIES: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, the Democratic governor of North Carolina welcomed Vice President Kamala Harris and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg to Charlotte today where they were able to see how the new Biden infrastructure law is going to help the electric bus system there and several infrastructure projects. The governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper, joins us next.




KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And as significant as it is, as historic as it is, our bipartisan infrastructure law is part one of two. Part two of two is our Build Back Better Act. The president and I know that families are stretched thin, and we take that very seriously. And we have designed the Build Back Better Act to build to help address the reality of the needs of everyday folks.


O`DONNELL: The vice president went to Charlotte, North Carolina, today to let people know that help is on the way for the Charlotte area transit system, thanks to the $7.5 billion in funding for zero and low emission buses and ferries in the Biden infrastructure bill that the president signed into law last month.

Vice President Harris and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg visited the Charlotte area transit system bus garage to tour electric vehicle operations.


PETE BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: Generations ago, cities like Charlotte moved past horse-drawn transit in part because they were thinking about safety, pollution and efficiency.


Today, we`re beginning another new chapter in our transit history, to make it safer, cleaner and more accessible than ever.


O`DONNELL: Here is the outline of what the new Biden infrastructure law will provide to North Carolina as described today by the vice president, $7.2 billion for highway projects, $457 million for bridge replacement and repairs, $109 million for electric vehicle charging stations, $910 million for public transportation, $100 million for broadband access, $1.1 billion for clean drinking water improvements.

And joining us now is the Democratic governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper.

Governor Cooper, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it.

GOV. ROY COOPER (D-NC): Glad to be with you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: I want to begin with that last item that was on the list of what the vice president was talking about in North Carolina today, and that is the $1.1 billion for clean drinking water improvements. What clean drinking water improvements does the state of North Carolina need at this point in the 21st century?

COOPER: Well, President Trump promised and promised an infrastructure bill, and the states waited and waited. And finally, it took President Biden to deliver.

When you`re talking about clean drinking water, it`s something that every family should expect. In North Carolina we already have an infrastructure that is ready for this money. We`re emphasizing regional drinking water systems, trying to get counties and cities to work together. And many of our smaller towns in our rural areas are leaning on water systems that are 70, 80 years old, and we need an upgrade.

This money comes to us at exactly the right time. And we`re glad to see them today. And we`re glad to see this funding finally get to us.

O`DONNELL: What is it going to mean for the charlotte area generally? You know, when you put money into electric buses in charlotte, it doesn`t just affect the buses and the people riding on the buses.

COOPER: Well, that`s right. And Charlotte is one of our fastest growing, an economic engine for our state. We know we`ve got to get people from one place to the other in a faster and cleaner way, and public transportation is a way to do that. And we`ve recognized in North Carolina already that the technology, electric vehicles is what`s going to help get us there.

We`ve got to step up to fight climate change. And we know the transportation sector is a great contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. And, you know, every day people want to get to and from work, and I think the people of North Carolina support us moving to the clean energy economy. Not only because it helps us step up and fight climate change but because of the great paying jobs it`s going to bring to our state.

We`ve been happy with the way we`ve been moving to electric vehicles on the transportation side. But we`ve also just passed legislation which requires a carbon standard for our power generation, requiring a 70 percent reduction by 2030, carbon neutrality by 2050. It`s great for a southern state to step up and to require that.

We`re excited about the future. We`re excited about this funding that`s going to help us get there. And we look forward to the build back better plan because that`s going to affect the infrastructure of every day families.

When you talk about child care and the work force, like a middle class family making together about $100,000 a year, they can save $5,000 a year on quality child care. That`s going to help families. That`s going to help the work force. And we`ve got to get to phase two of this through Congress. And the states are going to be ready for that, too.

O`DONNELL: Governor, I`ve been eager to talk with you for some time, because you seem to know something that most Democrats do not know how to do. And certainly I don`t claim to know how to do it. And that is you have gotten Trump voters to vote for you.

Last year 2020, Donald Trump won the state of North Carolina, he got 50.1 percent of the vote. And there you are as governor getting 51 -- he got 50.1 percent. You got 51.5 percent. You got more votes than Donald Trump.

And that just means mathematically that some of those people who voted for Donald Trump to let him win on his slot in the ballot had to switch parties to vote for you, for you to win.

What is it that you have said to those voters about what you want to do in government as a Democratic governor that has pulled those voters to you?

GOV. ROY COOPER (D-NC): I think it`s more about what I`ve done and what our team has done. I think that people will disagree with you on issues if they believe that you`re doing the right thing and that you believe in your values.

And that`s what I`ve done in North Carolina. I was polar opposite of Donald Trump and opposed him and his election. But at the same time I think people want us to try to work together in a bipartisan way. That`s why I`m excited about this infrastructure bill in Washington where the president has worked very hard to try to bring Republicans onboard. They`ve been very obstinate about almost everything, even though they`ve agreed with an infrastructure bill policy in the past.

In North Carolina I`ve had to work with a Republican legislature, and we`ve come together in a bipartisan way to pass strong funding for our schools, for our universities and community colleges. And it just -- it takes leadership.

And I`ll tell you what. Governors have become more and more important in this country particularly looking at our U.S. Supreme Court. They`re going to put responsibility back on the state to protect the rights of women`s health, protect voting rights, environmental safe guards.

I`ll be chair of the Democratic Governor`s Association next year. We`ve got 36 governors races. I just talked to my friend Stacey Abrams today. She`s going to run for governor of Georgia.

We know how important these governors are going to be across the country, and we`ve got to zero in on these gubernatorial elections in 2022.

O`DONNELL: The political miracle worker, the man who gets elected as a Democrat statewide in North Carolina. Governor Roy Cooper, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

COOPER: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, Donald Trump`s other -- the other big lie. That`s next.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you want President Trump to win the election, and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?

VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (voice over): I wanted him to win because he spoke about normalization of Russia-America relations.


O`DONNELL: "I wanted him to win," says Vladimir Putin, the leader of the Russian attack on the 2016 presidential election, an attack aimed at helping Donald Trump win the presidency.

That Russian attack on our election has become what our next guest, David Frum, calls Trump`s other big lie. David Frum`s new piece in "The Atlantic" is titled "It Wasn`t A Hoax". The piece corrects a mistake being made by some members of the media who seem to suggest that because some portions of the Steele dossier have been discredited, that means that Russia did not interfere in the election with the cooperation of the Trump campaign.

David Frum writes that "Some journalists want to use the Steele controversy to score points off politicians and media institutions that they dislike.

It remains fact that Russian hackers and spies helped his campaign. It remains fact that the Trump campaign welcomed the help. It remains fact that Trump`s campaign chairman sought to share proprietary campaign information with a person whom the Senate report identified as Russian intelligence officer.

It remains fact that Trump hopes to score a huge payday in Russia even as he ran for president. It remains fact that Trump and those around him lied and lied and lied again about their connections to Russia."

Joining us now are Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He served as a house impeachment manager in the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump. Also with us, David Frum, senior editor at "The Atlantic".

And Congressman Swalwell, let me begin with you. I fear that David is going to have to rewrite this article and republish it roughly every six months or certainly every year now that we live in the age of the big lies.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): It`s a great piece, Lawrence. I`m afraid that as we look back on the post-2016 election, all of the evidence was sitting right in front of us, and we were looking for more and more. But at the end of the day everything Donald Trump did was in plain sight, plain view as you would say in criminal law.

He had invested for years in the Russians, and the Russians had invested in him. The Russians offered him help at that Trump Tower meeting. He accepted it. He wanted more help and asked for the Russians to hack Hillary Clinton`s e-mails, and hours after he did that, they did.

And by the way, when he was asked if he had any investments in Russia, he said no, and it was revealed that he sought to build the largest building in Russia, a Trump Tower there. He lied and lied and lied about it.

He has attempted to erase the history of Russia, the history of January 6th and the history of his corrupt, racist, misogynistic presidency. And it`s incumbent on people like David to keep reminding the public what really happened.

O`DONNELL: The Senate report that David references in his article is from the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was published last year.


O`DONNELL: Back when the Republicans controlled the committee Marco Rubio was actually sitting as chair at the time. That Senate Intelligence Committee report, bipartisan report says "It is our conclusion based on the facts detailed in the committee`s report that the Russian intelligence service`s assault on the integrity of the 2016 U.S. election process, and Trump and his associate`s participation in enabling of this Russian activity represents one of the single, most grave counter intelligence threats to American national security in the modern era."

David, in court that`s when they say case closed.

DAVID FRUM, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE ATLANTIC": Well, I think one of the problems we`ve had is that people keep trying to take this case to court. I mean they`re trying to keep turning this into a criminal matter when it`s a counter intelligence matter. It`s a matter of what are the facts?

What motivated me to write this article, and I think what motivates you to talk about it and the congressman to talk about it is there is now a pushback not coming from only pro-Trump people because what do you expect form them, but for many people who have good records in the past four years, where they were trying to score some other points by saying, well, we want to back away from the Russia business.

The Steele dossier wasn`t all that it should have been. It got overplayed. There are many things we still don`t know. and so we want to tell a different kind of story in order to score points off politicians. We don`t like Hillary Clinton, like TV programs like this one that they don`t like for other reasons.

We have to keep in front of us the plain fact that everything you saw, everything that happened that was important you saw it in front of your own -- with your own eyes. You saw the Russians hack. You saw the Trump campaign try to persuade the world that the hackers were not Russians but were poor, murdered (INAUDIBLE). And in fact insinuate that the Clinton people had somehow not only packed themselves but murdered the people who were the instruments of their hack.

You saw Donald Trump on television welcome the help. And all of these things would have been the biggest scandal in American electoral history except that Donald Trump kept creating even bigger scandals than that.

Through the Trump years there have been many secrets but no mysteries. What you know, you know and you are being gaslit and only by pro-Trump people but unfortunately by people with distinguished records who are now trying to score some another political point, a very subtle one, by denying what was true.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Swalwell, there is, of course, the famous Donald Trump moment into a microphone, "Russia, are you listening?" The Mueller report documents exactly what happened in Russia after he said that when they were, indeed, listening and how that amped up their attack processes on the election.

SWALWELL: That`s right. They were listening, Lawrence. And they acted -- at his behest. And you know, it`s important for us to look backward and make sure that history is properly recorded.

But I`m a lawmaker. Our job is to the make sure this doesn`t happen again. Congressman Adam Schiff has legislation called the Protection of Our Democracy Act which would put into law, you know, a number of different policies that would prevent foreign interference.

I have legislation that would put in place a duty to report, that if you receive help from a -- or you`re solicited by a foreign actor that you would have to report it or it would be a crime.

That`s, of course, something that Donald Trump, Jr. did not do after the meeting at Trump Tower. So we have to learn from this. And just because Congress -- prior Congresses did not have an imagination to put in place laws that would protect us against what Donald Trump exploited, doesn`t mean we shouldn`t do that going forward.

And to just talk about one other finer point David referenced trying to score political points. Look what Donald Trump has been able to do by trying to erase race what happened with Russia in 2016 you now have senators like Tom Cotton trying to delay and Marco Rubio delay the National Defense Authorization Act because they want us to put tougher sanctions on Nord Stream 2 against Russia forgetting that the reason Russia was able to advance so much economically and militarily in the last four years is because the person that they covered for and supported didn`t do anything, and in fact enabled Putin.

O`DONNELL: Thank you both very much for joining this discussion tonight. David Frum, thank you for writing this piece. Let`s just pencil in, I don`t know, six months from now we`ll talk about it again because I`m sure we`re going to need to repeatedly on the calendar.

And Congressman Eric Swalwell, I`m not sure you got the memo from Donald Trump. He said that if Joe Biden was elected president you Democrats we`re going to end Christmas and I think that`s a Christmas tree behind you in the shot. I don`t know how --

SWALWELL: Christmas is thriving here.

O`DONNELL: -- I don`t know how Donald Trump explains that Christmas tree.

Thank you both very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.


SWALWELL: My pleasure.

O`DONNELL: And coming up. Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell`s office has been vandalized, her office in Michigan. That happened after months of threats. Congresswoman Dingell joins us next.


O`DONNELL: Earlier this week Congresswoman Debbie Dingell`s Michigan office was broken into and vandalized. The windows were smashed and items inside destroyed including memorabilia belonging to her late husband, John Dingell, the longest serving Congressman in U.S. history.

No one was in the office at the time. U.S. Capitol police and the Dearborn Police Department are investigating the incident.

Joining us now is Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan.

Congresswoman Dingell, first of all, I`m very sorry this has happened to your office. And have you been facing increasing threats? Is this something that you`ve felt could happen?


REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): No. Quite frankly, it never occurred to me that something like this would happen. Look Lawrence, I`m worried about the level of anger, hate rhetoric that`s out there. I`ve certainly seen a very increased amount of it in the last couple of years and at times things that have happened that, you know, have scared me a little.

But this obviously unsettled me a little on Monday, given the Personal nature of it. No electronics were taken. But I`m worried about what`s happening in the country. I think we all need to take a collective deep breath.

While I was upset on Monday, what happened on Tuesday at Oxford High School upset me a lot more. I knew some of the kids that were there at the time.

When are we going to wake up? Are we not worried about what we`re seeing happening in our communities across the country? The House of Representatives is reflective of the communities in our country. Anger and hatred has taken over too many in our communities.

O`DONNELL: The situation in Oxford is such an enormous tragedy. How do you -- how do you deal with it in your capacity as an elected official when you know you can`t stand up and say to people, legislatively, here`s what we`re going to do because you know there`s no legislative route through the United States senate now to do anything about what`s happening in school shootings.

DINGELL: I react to it as a human being. I react to -- and by the way, I don`t know if people realize how many of our -- several school systems in just my district have sent out notes to parents tonight on getting them one-by-one about other anger, other threats that are happening.

We had multiple school systems that were closed today and more are closing tomorrow. I`m scared. I`m scared for our kids. I`m scared for our communities. And I want people to stop and think. You know, I`ve got to talk about it, but all of us do. Why are people so angry? Why is this happening? And maybe we`ve got to look at what the roots of it are even before we talk about why the kids have access to guns. Why do parents not lock them up?

But there`s something going on that`s attacking the fundamental roots of our democracy. And you know what? I have good friends -- I can`t tell you the number of Republicans that came over and hugged me, told me they were sorry about it.

I want all of us to take a collective deep breath because I care about this country. I care about what`s happening. I care about the anger, the hatred, the division.

O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I`m very sorry about what happened at your office and, of course, the tragedy in Michigan with the school shooting is just another unbearable tragedy that we must bear, as we continue to do nothing about it.

DINGELL: Thanks, Lawrence. Let`s all say we`ve got to work together to stop it, period. Thanks.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

And coming up, 16-year-old Annie Maluku will get tonight`s LAST WORD.



O`DONNELL: Malawi is one of the poorest countries in the world, and one of the many things that the government of Malawi cannot afford to provide is free public high school for everyone. So, most kids in Malawi don`t go to high school.

And if a family can`t afford to pay the fees for high school -- if they can afford to pay, they are more likely to send a son to high school than a daughter. The girls` high school graduation rate in Malawi is less than half the boys` high school graduation rate.

The easiest thing for a girl to do is give up trying to go to high school. But every day, thousands of girls in Malawi refuse to give up, girls like Annie Maluku.


ANNIE MALUKU, KIND FUND SCHOLAR: They say I should go home, but still I kept coming to say, no, this has to (INAUDIBLE) so it was a bit hard. I was worried. Many times I was worried what will go on. We will continue to school, leave school.


O`DONNELL: Annie isn`t worried anymore thanks to the scholarship you have provided for her through the KIND Fund. Kids in Need of Desks is the partnership I created with UNICEF and MSNBC to deliver desks to schools in Malawi that have never had desks, and to provide scholarships for girls to attend high school.

You can contribute any time at No contribution is too small. Every dollar will help provide desks or send a girl to high school.

You can make a contribution as a gift to anyone on your holiday gift list and UNICEF will send them an acknowledgment of your gift. Your generosity has already provided scholarships for over 20,000 girls who are able to remain in high school in Malawi thanks to your kindness.

The KIND Fund Scholarships are much more than just tuition fees. Your contributions also supply clothing for the girls, including the school uniforms they wear and shoes.

Shoes are expensive in Malawi and for some girls the shoes they receive as part of their scholarship are the first shoes they`ve ever worn.


MALUKU: The scholarship (INAUDIBLE). They paid for me. (INAUDIBLE) They helped us a lot. They gave us shoes. Shoes is expensive right now and my mother can`t afford this. She`s a single mother, so she can`t afford.



O`DONNELL: Last week when we asked Annie what it feels like to not have to worry about school fees anymore, she said, "I feel it in my heart."

16-year-old Annie Maluku gets tonight`s LAST WORD.