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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 11/8/21

Guests: Adam Schiff, John Yarmuth, Jennifer Gosar


Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) is interviewed. Rep. John Yarmuth (D-KY) is interviewed. Republican Congressman Paul Gosar seemed troubled and confused when he was speaking on the House floor on January 6, just before the invaders of the Capitol forced Paul Gosar to stop talking and leave the House chamber. The January 6 committee`s investigation of Donald Trump`s role in the attack on the Capitol overlaps with a criminal investigation of Donald Trump being conducted 640 miles south of Washington in Atlanta. Senator Joe Manchin has been at the center of the nonstop negotiations on the Biden legislative agenda. And "Mother Jones" Washington bureau chief David Corn is now reporting the senator has also found time to pursue a book deal.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: I`m so glad you mentioned that, Rachel, because I have been struggling all day with this one-hour time zone change, more than when I fly across the country. I don`t get it. I don`t know why it should have thrown me. And I didn`t think it did throw me. But then I noticed I was hitting fatigue spots yesterday and today that aren`t supposed to be there.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: No, I just keep making all the wrong decisions. I went fishing yesterday. I was like, just enough time to fish if part of the river and that part of the river and get back to my vehicle before it gets dark. And there is me in the woods in the dark at the end of it.

Having completely miscalculated all of it. I can`t adjust. We shouldn`t do this anymore.

O`DONNELL: Just strap a flashlight to your, backpack now for the next month.

MADDOW: Forehead.

O`DONNELL: It`s going to take you a while. It`s going to take you a while, Rachel.

MADDOW: I know. Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

Well, tonight we begin with the breaking news of the night that contains a mystery. In the middle of it that we hope to clarify with our first guest tonight, Congressman Adam Schiff.

The House Select Committee investigating the January 6 attack on the capitol issued six new subpoenas. Three of those subpoenas are to Trump campaign operators. The other three are to three people who eagerly joined Donald Trump`s plot to steal the election. Two of them actually have pleaded guilty to federal crimes long before they joined the effort to steal the election.

The giant mystery at the center of today`s news is why was Rudy Giuliani not included in this subpoena list today? One of the people subpoenaed today is Bernard Kerik, who Rudy Giuliani installed as New York City police commissioner when Rudy Giuliani was mayor.

Bernard Kerik pleaded guilty to committing federal crimes as police commissioner and was sentenced to four years in federal prison. The only reason Bernard Kerik was subpoenaed is because he was operating as a right- hand man to Rudy Giuliani in an attempt to steal the election. Why was Bernard Kerik subpoenaed but Rudy Giuliani wasn`t?

We`ll see what Congressman Adam Schiff, a member of the January 6 Committee has to say than in just a minute.

Michael Flynn is also on today`s list of subpoenas. He, of course, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and was pardoned by Donald Trump on the night before Thanksgiving last year, three weeks after Joe Biden was declared the winner of the presidential election. The pardoned Michael Flynn immediately threw himself at high speed into trying to help Donald Trump steal the election.

Attorney John Eastman was one of the six subpoenaed. He is the author of the infamous and utterly false legal memo claiming that Vice President Mike Pence had the authority to reject Electoral College votes.

Angela McCallum, who worked in the Trump 2020 campaign was subpoenaed to testify about her part in attempting to steal the election. The evidence of her attempts to commit election fraud were actually left on voice mail.


ANGELA MCCALLUM, TRUMP CAMPAIGN NATIONAL EXECUTIVE ASISTANT: My name is Angela McCallum. I`m calling from Trump campaign headquarters in Washington, D.C.

Tomorrow, as you might be aware, Mayor Giuliani will be presenting experts and witnesses from Michigan who will be able to show that the vote totals are fatally flawed and do not accurately represent the will of the voters as well as your constituents. You do have the power to reclaim your authority and send us a slate of electors that will support President Trump and Vice President Ppence. We want to though when there is a resolution in the house to appoint electors for Trump if the president can count on you to join in support.


O`DONNELL: You do have the power to reclaim your authority and send a slate of electors that will support President Trump. That was a lie. That was an interstate lie. They did not have that power.

They legislated that power away. The law did not allow them to just seize that power back. They would have had to pass a new law that would not have been signed by the Democratic governor. And so that was impossible.


That woman was urging those people to try to commit a crime. The other two subpoenas went to Bill Stepien, the Trump campaign manager, and Jason Miller, a Trump campaign adviser.

The committee`s letter to Jason Miller says "you participated in a meeting on January 5th, 2021 at the Willard Hotel in Washington, D.C. in which Mr. Giuliani, Stephen Bannon, and others met to discuss overturning the rules of the November 2020 election by, among other things, pressuring Vice President Pence to not certify the electoral college results.

Page 234 of Bob Woodward and Rob Acosta`s book "Peril", quotes: Jason Miller in that meeting at the Willard Hotel telling the vice president`s chief of staff by phone, quote, the vice president has the ability to do this. He needs to be loyal.

Bill Stepien has experience as both a suspect and a witness in criminal investigations. He was one of Chris Christie`s political operatives who survived the investigation known as bridgegate, which involved creating traffic jams on the George Washington bridge to punish a New Jersey mayor.

The committee`s letter to Michael Flynn states that he, quote, attended a December 18th 2020 meeting in the Oval Office during which participants discussed seizing voting machines, declaring a national emergency, invoking national security emergency powers and continuing to spread the message that the November 2020 election had been tainted by widespread fraud.

And leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California. He is a member of the January 6 Select Committee, and he is, of course, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Thank you very much for joining us tonight, Congressman Schiff. We always appreciate it.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Thank you. Great to be with you.

O`DONNELL: So question number one is, is everyone around Rudy Giuliani on January 5th now has been subpoenaed. Steve Bannon, Bernie Kerik, Jason Miller. Why hasn`t Rudy Giuliani been subpoenaed?

SCHIFF: We have subpoenaed records involved in communications between Giuliani and the White House. The fact that he is not in this group of subpoenas shouldn`t imply that we`re not interested in his testimony. But in most investigations, you want to interview people around a particular potential witness, gather the facts from them before you interview perhaps a more important witness.

So I wouldn`t read too much into the fact that he wasn`t on this list. We`re deeply interested in Mr. Giuliani and his pivotal role in this plot to overturn the election. Because obviously he was deeply involved in these bogus legal cases brought around the country and he has very important information the committee wants.

O`DONNELL: Well, one other reason to not subpoena him is that he is cooperating or you have indications that he might cooperate without being subpoenaed.

SCHIFF: Well, I can`t comment on who is cooperating or not cooperating. And so I don`t want to infer one thing or another.

But, look, there are a number of people that are very high level. Frankly, we don`t anticipate are going to be eager to cooperate with the committee. Most people are. Most people are volunteering. We`ve interviewed over 150 people by now.

But there is some by virtue of their past resistance to lawful process that we`re much more skeptical about, and we`ll just have to leave it at that until we can disclose our intentions vis-a-vis Mr. Giuliani.

O`DONNELL: What do you hear in that phone call, that voice mail that we just played. Do you hear the federal crime of election interference and election fraud in that phone call?

SCHIFF: I certainly hear someone who is urging a legislator from the state I guess in that case was it Michigan or Pennsylvania, seeking to overturn the election, implying they have an authority they don`t have. And I think it`s part of the broader plot to overturn the election.

It is shocking to hear that, and listening to that that you just played out really just grabs you and shows just how naked this effort to overturn and corrupt our election process was. But you know what? You know what stands out is that recording of Donald Trump on the phone with Brad Raffensperger trying to get the secretary of state in Georgia find 11,780 votes that don`t exist.

And to me that`s a far more clear indication of criminal activity, and I think had anyone else been recorded on that call, they would be under investigation by the Justice Department by now.

O`DONNELL: We`re going to be reporting more on that Georgia investigation later in the hour because there is new developments in what may be the impaneling of a special grand jury there.


But let me ask you about that. "The New York Times" is reporting that there is obviously an overlap between your committee`s investigation and the criminal investigation that`s happening in Atlanta. And that the committee`s investigation has slowed the Atlanta criminal investigation.

What can you tell us about that?

SCHIFF: You know, I`m not aware of that, whether there is anything that our investigation is doing that would inhibit any other investigation, and I would hope that frankly there would be a synergistic relationship between -- to bring out the facts, both civil or criminal. So I`m not aware of that.

And I certainly hope that if we find evidence of criminal activity, that we will disclose-knit the proper manner, just as we did during the Russia and Ukraine investigations when we discovered activity, in some cases it was perjury or what we believe was perjury to our committee, that we would make the appropriate references to the Justice Department.

O`DONNELL: So, Stuart Stevens who worked on Republican presidential campaigns and was the top strategist on some of them said something tonight that I think could be helpful to your investigation. Let`s listen to this.


STUART STEVENS, FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: The person, if I was in that I would focus on who I think is the most normal and would feel some genuine patriotic duty to do the right thing is Bill Stepien. If you read these books about the Trump campaign, he is sort of the odd man out and he is sort of the most normal, who`s just trying to do a job as a Republican operative would do.


O`DONNELL: There is a scene in Bob Woodward and Robert Costa`s book where Bill Stepien goes to the White House oval office to the president to try to tell him that it`s all over. Obviously, that didn`t work.

But that`s Stuart Stevens who knows these players saying you might actually get a fair and honest response from Bill Stepien.

SCHIFF: Well, I hope -- I hope that he is right. And I hope that we do. And I hope that he is Cooperative and meets his lawful obligation to testify and to provide all relevant documents. Many people are. And we rely on that. And for those who don`t, we`re going to rely on the Justice Department to prosecute them.

If we can`t effectuate our subpoenas, we`re no more a real Congress than a court that can`t compel witnesses to testify in a case in that courtroom. So, we`re using all the tools that we have. I hope that he is right about this particular witness, and we can count on their willingness to adhere to the law and testify and do so truthfully and completely.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to one of the pieces of evidence that`s actually referred to in your letter -- your community`s letter to Michael Flynn with his subpoena. This is him speaking on December 17th.


MICHAEL FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The president has a -- and I just mentioned one of the options. He could immediately on his order seize every single one of these machines around the country, on his order. He could also order -- he could order the within the swing states, if he wanted to, he could take military capabilities and he could place them in those states and basically rerun an election in each of those states. I mean, it`s not unprecedented.


O`DONNELL: What do you want to ask him about that?

SCHIFF: Well, that is just so shocking to hear that tape and to realize that someone who even for a very brief period of time nonetheless was the national security adviser to the president of the United States, and is talking so cavalierly about seizing voting machines and calling out the military really takes your breath away.

So all of what you heard in that clip we`ll want to ask about. We`ll want to know also about a December Oval Office meeting in which he similarly made reference to the president`s ability to declare a national emergency and seize voting machines. All of this is part of the same plot to overturn the election.

They tried it with bogus litigation. They tried it with corralling state legislators. They tried it by urging the vice president to ignore his constitutional duty. And here it appears based on that interview as well as what`s been reported about that December meeting in the oval office, they may have even contemplated using the military.

And the country deserves to know about every element of this plot, who is involved, how far along it went, and what we need to do most importantly to prevent this kind of attack on our democratic process in the future.

O`DONNELL: If you eventually do get Attorney Eastman in front of the committee under oath, he presumably would have strong incentives to take the Fifth Amendment because he`s at risk of losing his law license for the faulty advice that he was giving the president and everything that he created there.


Is there any -- is there any way around witnesses invoking the Fifth Amendment with the committee?

SCHIFF: Well, the only way around that is to grant immunity to witnesses. And I don`t want to speak with reference to this particular witness, but this the general, if it came to that, we would have to consider what are the Department of Justice`s equities? Is there any chance the department may wish to prosecute that witness for some underlying crime they committed? We wouldn`t want what we`re doing to interfere with a potential prosecution.

I don`t know that frankly the prospect of his losing -- in the case of Mr. Eastman his law license, something I think the Senate has already urged that there is any way that the Fifth Amendment would -- could be invoked properly in those circumstances. I think it would have to be something that threatened his liberty.

But regardless, we would have to examine any particular circumstances of any given witness.

I`ll say also with respect to Mr. Eastman, publicly in his public pronouncements, he has been all over the map about whether he believed the legal theories he was offering that Mike Pence could use to overturn the election or he didn`t believe them. And we`ll certainly want to know who is in on this, what their understanding was of the bogus nature of that legal argument, and how close they came to trying to coerce the vice president to using it.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight. Really appreciate it.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

On Friday night, President Biden once again accomplished something Donald Trump couldn`t by passing his infrastructure bill through the House of Representatives. Some Republicans like Kentucky`s most powerful Senator Mitch McConnell are already taking credit for what that bill can do in their states. Kentucky`s most powerful member of the House of Representatives` Budget Committee Chair John Yarmuth joins us next.




JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Finally, infrastructure week. I`m so happy to say that. Infrastructure week.


O`DONNELL: President Biden is reveling in accomplishing what Donald Trump never could. After 20 infrastructure weeks in a row, Joe Biden passed his infrastructure bill in the house of representatives with a bipartisan vote of 226-206. The bill already passed the Senate with a bipartisan vote in August that included Mitch McConnell`s vote.


BIDEN: Vice President Harris and I look forward to having a formal signing ceremony for this bipartisan infrastructure soon. I`m not doing it this weekend because I want people who worked so hard to get this done, Democrats and Republicans to be here when we sign it. I`m also proud that the House took a big step toward forward to pass my build back better act.

Let me be clear. We will pass this in the House and we will pass it in the Senate.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Democratic Congressman John Yarmuth of Kentucky. He is the chair of the House Budget Committee.

Congressman Yarmuth, how surprised were you that Mitch McConnell is already taking credit for what the bipartisan infrastructure bill is going to do in Kentucky?

REP. JOHN YARMUTH (D-KY): Yeah, you want to see my shocked face?

No, I`m not surprised at all. Actually, he`s already taking credit for many of the investments that were made under the American Rescue Plan which he opposed. So I`m not surprised at all.

You`re going to see Republicans all over the country showing up at ribbon cuttings as a result of the passing of the infrastructure plan. Some of them have a case, 19 Republican senators voted for it and 13 Republican house members did. So they`re entitled.

But you`re going to see a lot more Republicans out there taking credit.

O`DONNELL: Your career is long enough that you can legitimately feel like you`ve seen it all. But the truth is none of us have seen an infrastructure package this big move through the Congress in one piece. This is normally years and years and years of infrastructure legislating combined. But since it`s been neglected for so many years, it had to be a big package just to catch up.

YARMUTH: It did. And when you think about the number of bridges, I think it`s something like 600,000 bridges across the country are in need of repairs, hundreds of thousands of roads, miles of roads. We have water systems all over the country still using lead pipes. We have places in Kentucky where there really is no access to clean drinking water. We have areas with no broad band.

We`ve seen what`s happened with their congestion at our ports. You fly into LaGuardia airport. I know they`re spending billions of dollars in renovating it now. But that came after many, many years of neglect.

So throughout the spectrum of our infrastructure, we have failed as a country over generations in keeping pace. And this is an incredible step forward in correcting that.

O`DONNELL: So now that the bill is passed and that we`re just trying to schedule the signing ceremony, which is obviously going to be a big deal.


And no doubt the president will extend bipartisan invitations to attend the signing ceremony, including possibly to Mitch McConnell, it will be interesting to see if Mitch McConnell feels he is allowed to go there, or whether that will get him in too much trouble with Donald Trump.

YARMUTH: Yeah, well, my guess is he wouldn`t show up. But I think Mitch is -- Mitch is probably beyond worrying about Donald Trump too much for himself. What he worries about now is his colleagues in the senate, some of whom are very vulnerable in next year`s elections. And I think he is going to want to play that calculation very carefully because, you know, his primary mission is to regain control of the Senate so he can be majority leader again. Not that he has any policy objectives in mind in becoming a majority leader, but that`s what he wants to be. So, I think that`s the way he`ll play all of the next few months.

O`DONNELL: There is a fascinating and long new profile of Mitch McConnell in "The Washington Post" in which you`re quoted extensively, and that`s where I learned how far back you go with Mitch McConnell, which is actually much farther back than I do. I mean, I knew him as a Republican senator, a reasonable member of the Republican Senate in the 1990s.

So I`ve been shocked to see what he has become. You are it turns out much less surprised than I am, and you go back to when you were both kids in Washington.

YARMUTH: Yeah. I was actually -- I met Mitch when I was still in college, and we worked on a U.S. Senate campaign in 1968. We traveled around Kentucky together, setting up college campus organizations.

I was a Republican then. And a very liberal Republican, but you could be a liberal Republican then. And what struck me about Mitch then, and as nobody will be surprised to hear now is that Mitch only cared about winning. This was his mission was winning elections, winning power, and maintaining power.

And that was when he was -- I think he was probably 24, 25 years old at the time. But he really hasn`t changed. And he was a county executive here in Louisville, Kentucky back in the `70s and early `80s.

And he was quite a progressive leader at that point. Was in favor of collective bargaining for public employees, actually was for financial disclosures of campaign donors. Actually, even opened the door to public financing of campaigns.

So with him, it`s really a matter of expediency how he feels about different policy matters. But he`s been very successful. I`ve said before, he`s the most focused person I`ve ever known in a competition other than Tiger Woods.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, that I get. That part I get. But I was surprised.

And I really did feel enlightened by reading your insights on Mitch McConnell in that "Washington Post" piece, and what you`re telling us right now, because I made the mistake during earlier parts of his career of thinking he actually meant what he said and that he would hold to this over a period of time.

And what you point out in "The Washington Post" is no, he`ll just go wherever the power play is at any given moment.

YARMUTH: Exactly. He is to a certain extent -- well, to a very large extent shameless. He doesn`t care about being called hypocritical. His position on the Merrick Garland nomination and then the Amy Coney Barrett nomination totally 180 degrees apart.

But that doesn`t bother him. And partially because he knows in this environment he can get away with it, and most politicians can get away with it these days. The voters don`t really hold many politicians accountable for contradictions in their own personal positions.

O`DONNELL: Budget Chairman John Yarmuth, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. We always appreciate it.

YARMUTH: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, Arizona Republican Paul Gosar has tweeted his homicidal fantasies about killing Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and threatening the life of President Biden. Paul Gosar`s sister, Jennifer Gosar, will join us next.



O`DONNELL: Republican Congressman Paul Gosar seemed troubled and confused when he was speaking on the House floor on January 6, just before the invaders of the Capitol forced Paul Gosar to stop talking and leave the House chamber. Paul Gosar was one of the people who encouraged the attack on the Capitol earlier in the day.

Paul Gosar is a dentist. And you would think how he would understand how a COVID mask is supposed to be worn. But as you can see, he doesn`t.

And as a member of Congress, you would think he understands that he cannot use Twitter to threaten the lives of another member of Congress and the president of the United States in the tweet that we will not be showing you but has been seen by nearly three million people.

Paul Gosar, no doubt with the help of his staff on the government payroll, created an animated video that shows him stabbing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to death in the back.


O`DONNELL: After he assassinates Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Paul Gosar then uses the same knives to threaten President Biden. Paul Gosar released that very same video on Instagram after releasing it on Twitter.

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is one of the most threatened members of the House of Representatives. Twitter and Instagram, which is owned by Facebook and run by Mark Zuckerberg are allowing those videos to remain on their sites. They are aiding and abetting the deeply perverted homicidal fantasies of Paul Gosar.

Joining us now is Jennifer Gosar, Paul Gosar`s sister.

Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I know this is difficult for you. You and your brother Tim have spoken about your brother Paul. What -- what is wrong with him? And is it getting worse?

JENNIFER GOSAR, REP. PAUL GOSAR`S SISTER: You know, yes, it`s getting worse because he has not been held accountable in any way, shape or form. He has not been censured. He has not been expelled, and he has not had his seat forfeited by any of the leadership.

And by or that I don`t mean to specify Minority Leader McCarthy and McConnell. I do mean Speaker Nancy Pelosi. I do mean Senate Leader Chuck Schumer. I do mean Attorney General Merrick Garland.

I mean where are these people? Does he need to act on his sociopathic fantasy for Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? I am very concerned for she and other members. And this is absolutely unacceptable. I do not understand it. And I`m livid, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez tweeted a reply tonight. She said so while I was en route to Glasgow, a creepy member I work with who fund raises for Neo-Nazi groups shared a fantasy video of him killing me. And he`ll face no consequences because Leader McCarthy cheers him on with excuses."

She obviously puts up with more threats than most people in the history of the House of Representatives, but what is new is that those threats are coming from a member of the House of Representatives.

GOSAR: And you would think that those very members alongside this person would hold him accountable. No. They leave it to family members to come forward in the public and it`s on a show like yours, which by the way, thank you for letting me speak out here again.

This is my first time on your show, but I appreciate any opportunity to put a spotlight on this awful man. I mean, honestly, is there one policy, is there one insight that Paul has ever brought to his district, to Arizona, to the United States of America? And absolutely unequivocally the answer is no.

And, in fact, what he is expounding upon in his sick fantasies is the fact that he cannot even approach the intellect of Representative Ocasio-Cortez. He cannot respond with his word salad and somehow meet her intelligence or her information.

So what he has to do is call out his (INAUDIBLE) brothers and sister, whoever they may be, and like show them what he wishes, lest one of them act on it. It`s very concerning. He must be stopped.

O`DONNELL: When you say he is getting worse, is there a mental deterioration that you`re observing?

GOSAR: I think so. I mean I think it`s apparent. I see comments consistently about his head movements, his speech. I mean, I`m using the word "word salad" and I think I`m using it correctly in a clinical way. He doesn`t speak in complete sentences. He is often word-finding. He can`t find the right word. He often uses malaprops. But it`s not a malaprop. It`s a neurological problem.

And I suspect he has a neurodegenerative condition, but I don`t know that. You can ask him. He`ll deny it. But of course, like everything else that my eldest brother says, it is a lie.

O`DONNELL: What is this like for you personally, to have your brother out there with your name behaving this way, saying these things? I see you`ve taken the responsibility to publicly come out against him. What is this burden like for you personally?


GOSAR: I do not want to use an expletive on your program, but I have struggled all day. I would cry. I`m so angry because I wouldn`t throw things or break things.

But what I saw in that video was not only the slicing of a representative who I very much value, has fought for me, even here in Seattle, the policies that she supports very much help better my life too. And she has so bravely done that, right?

I don`t have to not like Leader McCarthy and wish him death. I can just wish him not to be re-elected. Isn`t that enough?

But what I do see in that video, and I want to point this out is that it not only points out Representative Ocasio-Cortez, but it looks at immigrants as if they are the locust plague.

It glorifies those horseback border agents that beat the immigrants there at the border. I mean, it is so despicable. And Lawrence, I have spent 15 years working as a medical interpreter for Spanish and English speaking, you know, appointments.

And I am absolutely beyond aghast at how much this man has gotten away with. I don`t know what he would need to do for any one of those people in a, quote, "leadership position" to hold him accountable, and I must ask Attorney General Merrick Garland, where are you? Where are you?

O`DONNELL: Jennifer Gosar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it.

GOSAR: Thank you very much again for letting me speak.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, Daniel Goldman will join us on how the January 6 Committee might help the criminal investigation against Donald Trump in Fulton County, Georgia. That`s next.



O`DONNELL: The January 6 committee`s investigation of Donald Trump`s role in the attack on the Capitol overlaps with a criminal investigation of Donald Trump being conducted 640 miles south of Washington in Atlanta. The "New York Times" is reporting that the congressional investigation in Washington has slowed the criminal investigation of election fraud by Donald Trump in Atlanta.

What may be the most important piece of evidence in the criminal investigation in Atlanta has been public since early January when Georgia`s secretary of state Brad Raffensperger released an audio recording of Donald Trump`s phone call to him on January 2nd.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have.


O`DONNELL: The "New York Times" reports that Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis is considering empaneling a special grand jury to, quote, "focus solely on the potential case against Mr. Trump and his allies. Ms. Willis is likely to soon take the step according to a person with direct knowledge of the deliberations, speaking on the condition of anonymity, because the decision is not final."

And joining us now is Daniel Goldman, former House impeachment inquiry majority counsel during the first impeachment proceeding against Donald Trump. He is also the former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and an MSNBC legal contributor.

Daniel, what do you read in these new reports about what`s happening in Atlanta and what`s happening in Washington? How these two investigations coordinate and how they bump into each other.

DANIEL GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: I would be surprised if the congressional investigation -- any of them, January 6 Committee or the Senate Judiciary Committee investigation where they interviewed the former U.S. attorney in Atlanta who would have some relevant information to the district attorney`s investigation. I`d be surprised if those slowed down the district attorney`s investigation.

My sense is from being on the Hill that if the district attorney wanted information that the January 6 committee had gathered, that the committee would figure out a way to get it to the district attorney.

It really works one way because the district attorney`s investigation is a criminal investigation, is confidential and may be a grand jury investigation where secrecy is required, the district attorney would be very unlikely to give any information to Congress.

But Congress is not subject to those same confidentiality requirements. And so my sense would be that if they wanted information from the committee, the committee would figure out a way to do it.

And it`s a lot easier by the way to do that, because the January 6 Committee has nine members who are all acting in unison. We`re not hearing very much about, you know, objecting to any of this. We`re not getting leaks about the depositions or any of the interviews because everyone is of a single-minded purpose to get to the bottom of this. So it could be that it`s happening already and we just don`t know about it.

O`DONNELL: So one possibility, for example, in Georgia is that Mark Meadows, for example, is subpoenaed to the January 6 committee. He hasn`t testified yet, but if you`re the D.A. in Georgia, you might want to know what his testimony to the committee is before you proceed because he`s involved in the criminal investigation that you`re conducting in Georgia. So what do they do in a case like that? Do they sit there in Georgia and think well, let`s wait until we get a transcript of what Mark Meadows says in Washington?


GOLDMAN: Yes. I actually think the committee -- the congressional investigations could be very helpful to the district attorney`s investigations, particularly because district attorneys often don`t have the same kind of resources.

And so for sure any testimony under oath that a witness could use would be reviewed by the dis attorney. They couldn`t use that testimony at a trial, for example. They`d have to have the live witness there.

But it would mean that they would not have to interview the witness and a lot of the hurdles that would come around trying to figure out what that witness knows could be solved.

So yes, and we had instances when I was on the Hill doing the -- doing the congressional investigations where prosecutors came and reviewed transcripts of confidential witness interviews that we did, and there`s a procedure that you could use so that they could get access to that.

That`s routine, and I`m sure that that will happen here if there`s anything relevant.

O`DONNELL: Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight. We always learn something.

GOLDMAN: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, David Corn has another scoop on Joe Manchin. David Corn joins us next.



O`DONNELL: Senator Joe Manchin has been at the center of the nonstop negotiations on the Biden legislative agenda. And "Mother Jones" Washington bureau chief David Corn is now reporting the senator has also found time to pursue a book deal.

Quote, "Manchin`s position at the center of the latest Washington storm and a tell-all about this complicated sausage-making could catch the fancy of publishing houses. One publishing executive estimated that a Manchin book could fetch up to $1.5 million."

And joining us now is David Corn, Washington bureau chief of "Mother Jones" and an MSNBC political analyst.

Fascinating reporting, David, that Joe Manchin is finding time for this in the middle of these complex negotiations.

DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that`s what I found from talking to people who were familiar with what`s going on. And he`s had several meetings, maybe many more, but that`s what I was able to confirm, to discuss this book project. We don`t know exactly what he would be writing in this book.

There`s nothing, you know, legal wrong about it, but it certainly seems unseemly that at this very moment where he`s, you know, lifting his profile by being the guy who`s blocking this major piece of legislation, at the same time he`s putting together a book proposal that, you know, he will sell hopefully I`m sure from his side, you know, get a lot of money for it.

O`DONNELL: But David, so one of the things that strikes me about it is it`s a better book proposal if it`s about two big bills passing than one bill passing and then the bigger one not passing because it got all muddled.

CORN: Well, I don`t know. I mean if you -- you know, I have a little insight into how Manchin`s been thinking the past couple of weeks, but he also has been telling us publicly.

He really sees this I think as an ideological battle. He calls himself a conservative Democrat who has said to his colleagues, hey, if we get zero, not $1.5 trillion or $3.5 trillion, if we get zero, I can live with that. He`s not, you know, he says he`s not enamored with the idea of expanding government programs, even though he comes from the state with the sixth highest poverty rate, and they certainly could use expanded Medicare there, paid family leave.

I actually spent a lot of time in West Virginia. I have friends out there. And I know how hard it`s -- part of that state, a lot of that state is hurting.

And so -- but he just -- he keeps saying this, that he believes that a big measure like this moves the country toward an entitlement mentality, which is really bizarre coming from a guy driving a Maserati, and who has, you know, family interests in a coal brokerage house.

I mean, who`s entitled here, and who`s entitled to what? So I mean I see your point, but I think, you know, my guess is that he wants to explain himself, explain his reasoning, and you know, see what that can get in the open marketplace if he goes ahead with his book proposal.

O`DONNELL: Yes, but I`m just saying, you know, the book tour, the book buying market -- the book buying market is for these purposes more on the side of give me two big dramas that end in a big dramatic way, and the just kind of dragged it out and nothing ever really happened on the second bill, that section of the book is -- that`s not a selling section of the book.

CORN: I`m not here to give Joe Manchin publishing or publicity advice, but there are networks out there that we know of where the person who stopped, you know, climate change action, the person who stopped paid family leave, the person who stood up against socialism would have a lot of attention. And so, you know, the question is what market does he want to sell to.

O`DONNELL: Yes. That`s a good point, and conservative books do sell very well. So we`ll see how this factors in to the great mystery of what is Joe Manchin thinking.

David Corn, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. We always appreciate it.

CORN: Thanks, Lawrence.


O`DONNELL: David Corn gets tonight`s LAST WORD.


BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC: And good evening once again as we start a new week. Day 293 of the Biden administration.