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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 11/18/21

Guests: Sean Patrick Maloney, Tim Gosar, Hakeem Jeffries, Mark Pocan


Interview with Rep. Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY). Interview with Rep. Mark Pocan (D-WI). Interview with Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney (D-NY). The House is going to vote on Build Back Better bill tonight. New York Democratic congressman on Democrats holding 1,000 events around the country to promote the infrastructure bill. Republican Congressman Paul Gosar`s brother said his punishment was appropriate after the congressman retweeted a violent video against Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. FDA expected to authorize coronavirus boosters for all adults nationwide as soon as tomorrow. GOP Senator John Kennedy questioned Biden`s comptroller of the currency nominee implied as a communist.



And I have a theory of what Kevin McCarthy is doing. I think he saw that you for the first time tonight exhibited some optimism about this bill actually passing, and Kevin McCarthy thought, I`ll show Rachel Maddow, I`ll show her. I`ll add a couple of hours to this process.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, "TRMS": What it is is that he knows that I got up extra early this morning to go fishing and so I`m going to have a hard time staying up extra late to do coverage if it goes until like 4:00 in the morning. He`s like I`ll out last her, she didn`t even catch anything. I know.

O`DONNELL: He`s actually running for speaker. He knows that if the Republicans win back control of the House, he is not a shoe in for being speaker. And on the same day that mark meadows was quoted as saying, Donald Trump should be the next speaker of the house, there`s Kevin McCarthy out there tonight running for the job on the House floor.

MADDOW: What did you think of Meadows saying that? That was like an unprompted thing that he brought up. This was a crack pot idea that Republicans had circulated months ago that had disappeared from the discourse, and then Meadows brought it back today, and I tend to think that he`s not a person who does that sort of thing literally because a whim just crossed his mind.

What did you think of him putting that back on the radar today? Are they really going to try to make that a real idea again?

O`DONNELL: I doubt it, but what it is a shot at Kevin McCarthy. If you --


O`DONNELL: If you are in any sense supportive of Kevin McCarthy, you do not say that. You absolutely say it. You don`t raise that. You don`t throw that into the storm and chaos that is the Republican House of Representatives.


O`DONNELL: And so that is Mark Meadows not trying to make the day go better for Kevin McCarthy. Donald Trump at some point will discover, he`ll see an organizational chart at some point, and discover that the speaker of the house is actually ranked lower constitutionally than the president or vice president, like he`ll be, you know, he`ll be junior to Kamala Harris if he wants to be speaker of the house, so I, you know, I kind of doubt it.

MADDOW: It`s always been interesting to me, too, in terms of McCarthy`s position among House Republicans. He doesn`t really have any constituency, you know what I mean, like on the house side, Nancy Pelosi, not just through seniority, but through longevity, and through the work that she`s done, like Democrat will sing her praises and talk about her as a good leader, even those that disagree with her on some things or aren`t ideologically in the same place.

I have never heard a Republican of any stripe say I`m team McCarthy. He has the position by dent of the way the line of succession went ahead of him, but it does feel like people would be pushing on an open door if he was in fact going to be potentially shoved out of leadership. I guess we shall see.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, and that`s a great contrast with Nancy Pelosi that you made, which I hadn`t thought of before with McCarthy. Nancy Pelosi has a specific and personal relationship with every single Democrat in the House, from the most moderate to the most liberal. And the, you know, closeness of those relationships may vary, but she has a real working relationship with every one of them.

And Kevin McCarthy absolutely does not have that.

MADDOW: No. And it`s not like there`s anybody else who brings them all together. They`re a fractious bunch but it does seem like he`s in a weak spots. Maybe he`ll shore that up with his filibuster.

O`DONNELL: One more thing for Donald Trump in case he`s watching, the speaker of the House does not get a free place to stay in Washington. That`s another consideration.

MADDOW: Ooh, you just sealed it. You just sealed it, what, he`s going to pay rent. Exactly.

O`DONNELL: Yeah. Thank you, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Well, part two of the Biden infrastructure plan is poised for a vote in the house tonight if Kevin McCarthy ever stops talking. Things moved very quickly today after the Congressional Budget Office came out with its official analysis of the Biden social infrastructure bill, and according to the nonpartisan CBO`s official estimate, the social policy and climate policy bill would increase the federal deficit by $367 billion over the next ten years.


But that is a technical finding that the CBO admits is not reality. The CBO noted that the enhanced IRS tax enforcement provisions in the bill would bring in at least an estimated $270 billion of new revenue. But for technical reasons, that piece of the estimate was not included in the official estimate.

And if you do include those $207 billion in the revenue included in the overall score, then the bill only adds $160 billion to the deficit over ten years but there`s more. There is a competing estimate by the Treasury Department that says increased tax enforcement would actually generate twice as much, more than twice as much revenue as that CBO estimate.

The Treasury estimates that the enhanced IRS enforcement would generate more than $400 billion in new revenue, close to $500 billion in new revenue, and so that would mean that the legislation would not add anything to the deficit over ten years.

And in a statement about this, the Senate Finance Committee Chair Ron Wyden said, I`m confident in the Treasury Department`s estimate which is backed up by experts and IRS commissioners appointed by Republican and Democrat presidents, if anything, the Treasury Department`s estimate is too conservative, and not too aggressive.

The White House called the CBO score very good news for Democrats, following the release of the CBO analysis, White House officials met with moderate Democrats who were eagerly awaiting the CBO score.

Now, let`s take a look at what is happening on the house floor at this moment now that the CBO score is there, now that the house is poised to vote, I think we have a shot of Kevin McCarthy up there, and we`re just going to randomly dip in here for a few seconds of his excitement and let`s see what he might be saying.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): -- happen to that border when you provide a billion dollars in amnesty. What do you think is going to happen when you reward people with $450,000? Where do you get the money, from the hard working taxpayers of America who have less to give, but you know what, they`re going to have to give more because you`re hiring 87,000 IRS agents to come after them.

O`DONNELL: Okay. We can come back from this because the one place they`re going to get the money is on a new tax surcharge on income earners over $10 million, and then an additional income tax surcharge on income earners over $20 million.

Those are the hard working Americans that Kevin McCarthy is out there fighting for tonight, trying to protect them from any tax increases and from any more strict endorsement by the IRS about what taxes they might already be evading in their current tax returns.

Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. He is the chairman of the House Democratic caucus and he is taking a break from listening to the endless comments of Kevin McCarthy.

Congressman, I was afraid we might not be able to get you, but I think Kevin McCarthy has given you the opportunity to spend some time with us, and we are grateful for that.

What is the schedule tonight when Kevin McCarthy finally stops talking?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, it`s our expectation that the debate will conclude shortly as soon as the rambling wreck of a speech that Kevin McCarthy is delivering, he`s certainly no Winston Churchill or John F. Kennedy. As soon as he concludes the tirade, which is in defense of the tax cheats, well off and well-connected, I expect that we`ll hear from our speaker, Nancy Pelosi, to close out the debate, and then we will proceed to vote.

This is a great week for the American people, a great week for the economy, and a great week for Joe Biden and the Democratic build back better agenda. We started the week by President Biden signing the bipartisan infrastructure agreement. We`re going to fix our crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, airports, mass transportation system, ensure access to high speed internet all across the country, and we`re ending the week by passing the historic build back better act that`s going to create millions of good paying jobs, cut taxes for working families, and we`re going to lower costs for every day Americans as well.

O`DONNELL: It seems like the action really speeded up today when the CBO report came out, and it seems as though this report coupled with the Treasury`s analysis about how much revenue would actually be raised by the new IRS provisions, it seems as though that has brought aboard for this vote any moderates in the House Democratic caucus who were waiting for those numbers.


JEFFRIES: That`s correct. The votes exist to pass the Build Back Better Act. President Biden made two promises on the revenue side of this legislative effort. He said, one, not a single American who makes less than $400,000 is going to pay a dime in extra money in terms of taxes. That is true. And he also indicated that this was going to be paid for by the wealthiest amongst us making sure that they pay their fair share, and to supporting this investment in America, and lifting up and creating prosperity and opportunity for every day Americans, that is also true.

That has brought the entirety of the house Democratic caucus together to support moving this bill forward this evening.

O`DONNELL: One thing that the CBO does not specifically calculate in these estimates is what will the effect be on inflation of this legislation. What is your best analysis of that?

JEFFRIES: Well, leading economists across the country, including those at Moody`s have made clear that the bill will not add to any inflationary issues that we`re dealing with in America, and here`s what`s most important, in this legislation, we are going to lower costs in the area of child care, for instance, the average American family pays about $8,600 per year in child care. For many Americans we will lower that to zero, and certainly no more than 7 percent of their annual income.

We`re going to lower costs in the area of health care, drive down the high cost of life saving prescription drugs. Many seniors now pay about $6,000 per year, even if they`re on a fixed income. We`re going to drop that to no more than $2,000, and perhaps lower for many seniors throughout this country.

We also are investing approximately $150 billion in the creation and preservation of affordable housing, so we will be lowering housing costs as well, and so not only is the bill not going to add to the current inflation issues that we`ve got to deal with, and hopefully we`ll see enhance monetary policy coming out of the Federal Reserve so deal with this dynamic, but it`s also going to lower cost in critical areas for the American people.

O`DONNELL: Congresswoman Jayapal told Rachel Maddow in the previous hour that not everything in this bill that you`re going to vote on tonight has been wired already with the United States Senate, that there could be some changes forced on the Senate.

What will that do to the procedure if the Senate makes changes?

JEFFRIES: Well, Lawrence, I have great respect for the institution where you once served the people of this great country, but I`ve learned in my four plus terms here in Congress not to predict what may or may not happen on the other side of the Capitol, other than to say that I expect we are going to be able to come together. We as Democrats understand the moment that we`re in.

We`ve had just a handful of objectives this year. Crushed the virus, and we made substantial progress in that area, particularly with the American Rescue Plan. Provide relief and assistance to every day Americans who are struggling, and laid a foundation to super charge our economy, create opportunity and prosperity in every single zip code.

And the Build Back Better Act is the final piece of that legislative trifecta, began with the American rescue plan, we`ve got that done, the bipartisan infrastructure agreement, check, and now, the Build Back Better Act, so I think the Senate will work its will after the House exercises its prerogative and advances this legislation, and then I believe we`ll be able to come together hopefully sooner rather than later to get the bill to President Biden`s desk.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much for starting off our live coverage of this vote tonight, really appreciate it.

JEFFRIES: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: And joining us now is Democratic congressman of Wisconsin. He is the former chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, but he`s still progressive.

And you, Congressman, I guess, agree with the new leader of the Progressive Caucus, Congresswoman Jayapal, that this bill is on track for passage tonight.

REP. MARK POCAN (D-WI): Absolutely, and you know, I think when people were so concerned about whether we were voting on a Monday or a Wednesday or the next Wednesday, what day we were going to get the bills done, we have said all along what mattered really is what`s in the bills, and right now, we have got so much of what the president wanted to get done in the Build Back Better agenda, between this bill and the infrastructure bill. And when we finally get this through the Senate, we`re going to have really delivered for the American people in a very serious, substantial way.

You heard Hakeem Jeffries talk about all the savings that will be there for the American people in addition to the tax cut through the child tax cut that`s in there as well as the creation of millions of jobs, many of which tackle climate change, and again, it`s all paid for.

So we`re very happy that this is being sent to the Senate. We expect that they`ll send it back to us really soon, and that`s when we can talk about how much the American people are going to benefit from this bill.

O`DONNELL: So, the scoring controversy, it`s a very rare thing for the CBO and the Joint Tax Committee to have a tax provision, and the IRS enforcement provision is essentially a tax provision. To have someone like that that they can`t figure out how to score, and basically what they`re saying our techniques we have used in the past do not apply to this kind of enforcement change.

And so, the Treasury consulting former IRS commissioners and other IRS enforcement professionals, they have come up with their estimate of what it will be. They`re saying it could be $400 billion, it could be $500 billion. In additional revenue, and that`s the number. That`s the money that balances this bill.

And it is for technical purposes being balanced outside of the official scoring process, and I take it that that has been considered good enough by the members of the more moderate members who were waiting for this official score.

POCAN: I think what they were looking for is just making sure that it`s consistent with the other analysis that are out there. And it has been. I think they`re convinced and they`re right to be convinced that this bill will be paid for, that only people who make more than $400,000, and corporations that often have found ways not to pay their fair share, they`re the ones that are going to be paying for this bill.

Completely different than in the Trump era, they passed a tax cut that 86 percent of the money went to the top 1 percent. They didn`t pay for a dime of it. We`re doing just the opposite. This is a bill that will be paid for, won`t add to the deficit, and will save American families quite a bit of money.

O`DONNELL: It was the joint tax report on this that I was looking at tonight was just incorporated in the CBO score is unlike any I have seen because I was turning pages and pages of it and all of the provisions, the tax provisions were losing money from the treasury because they are things like tax credits for environmental issues like the tax credits that support the purchase of electric vehicles, for example, and there`s a tremendous amount of outflow for the Treasury in support of the environmental agenda through tax credits.

And then I came to the corporate provisions, and bang, the numbers started to pop, the giant revenue that`s coming in through the corporate taxation, and then the taxation on the very high income earners.

POCAN: You know, I have been a small business owner for 34 years, and so many people like myself back in Wisconsin, and across the country pay our taxes on a regular basis, and these big corporations have found ways, whether it`s hiding money overseas or having, you know, very high paid lawyers and accountants, they figure out how to scam the system. This bill goes after that. Has a minimum tax that they have to pay and it`s finally bringing that tax fairness.

So as a small business owner, I especially appreciate this because it adds to my competitiveness as a small business and also it`s showing that no one can get away with not paying their fair share like all of my constituents do. So, it`s one of the stronger provisions in the bill is how we actually pay for it.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Mark Pocan, thank you very much for joining us. I`m sorry that we took you away from listening to Kevin McCarthy`s speech. We appreciate your time.

POCAN: I think I`m going to watch it on rerun a few times tonight, in order to get to sleep. It won`t be a problem. Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you very much, Congressman. Appreciate it.

POCAN: Take care.

O`DONNELL: And coming up, the chair of the Democratic congressional campaign committee, Sean Patrick Maloney, will join us on the day that Kevin McCarthy decided to make the next election a referendum on Paul Gosar. That`s next.



O`DONNELL: Kevin McCarthy is still speaking on the House floor in what is now the longest speech of his life. Most House members only get to speak for one minute at a time on the house floor, but the leaders of each party basically have unlimited speaking time in situations like this. Kevin McCarthy is using that unlimited time as no one on the losing side of a vote in the House ever has before. He is clearly a desperate man on that floor tonight, desperately not trying to win the vote, but desperately trying to hold on to the job of Republican leader in the House, especially in the hope that the Republicans win control of the house next year and he will become speaker. As Rachel and I were discussing at the beginning of this hour.

Let`s dip in to a sample of where the mind of Kevin McCarthy has wandered to in what is now the second hour of his ramble.

MCCARTHY: I`ll be sure and let you all know that date. You`re celebrating the bill. Celebrate with Russell, and tell him where he`s better off. Just think for a moment that in America, children can`t play outside on their own property for fear of their safety from cartels and traffickers. I`m not talking about the cities where you defunded the police.

O`DONNELL: Okay. We`ll just stop on the lie since there are no cities anywhere in America where anyone defunded the police, certainly not the Democrats in that room. That has never happened.

So the danger of dipping into Kevin McCarthy is the exposure of just the lies that he`s been spewing as he`s been out there.


Instead of listening to more of that, we will be joining now by Democratic Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney of New York, the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

And, Congressman, I just want to begin with one point that Kevin McCarthy made earlier in the day when he promised that if the Republicans win control of the House next year, Paul Gosar will get his committee assignment back. Kevin McCarthy apparently wants you to have a congressional campaign next year that is a referendum on Paul Gosar.

REP. SEAN PATRICK MALONEY (D-NY): Right, well, we should probably remember that before he was made famous for, you know, advocating violence against his colleagues here in the House of Representatives, he also was best known perhaps for forming the white supremacy caucus, you might remember that.

But look, what you`re looking at there on the House floor is the sound of Kevin McCarthy losing, and people should look very closely at that because this is a good night for America. And what they`re left with is nothing but a bunch of, you know, random musings and trying to whip people up over nothing when in fact, right now, on the House floor, we are moving the chains. We are getting closer to the end zone on a bill that will bring down costs for Americans on everything from taking care of their kids to child care to their health insurance premiums, to the cost of prescription drugs for our seniors, the cost of staying at home for elder care.

I mean, this is a good day for America, and it`s a huge win for House Democrats.

O`DONNELL: I want to consider what`s in the bill that the president signed on Monday that is already in law, the bipartisan infrastructure bill. Just for your state of New York, just for the state of New York, $13.7 billion in highway funding, $1.9 billion to replace and repair bridges, $9.8 billion to improve public transportation, $685 million in funding for New York`s 24 airports. And $150 million for electric vehicle charging infrastructure just in the state of New York and $100 million to upgrade internet service in New York state.

What is that going to mean in your district?

MALONEY: Well, it`s huge. So I wrote part of that bill that will help fix the 1,700 structurally deficient bridges in New York, about 170 of them are in the Hudson Valley, and it`s huge, in this bill, nobody talks about this, debt forgiveness for small farmers, up to $150,000 of loan forgiveness, that`s going to affect almost all the farmers in my district who have FSA loans through the USDA, that`s a huge help to them as they try to stay on the farms.

There`s so much good stuff for folks trying to afford drugs. If you`re paying for insulin, you`re going to pay 35 bucks instead of a hundred. If you`re trying to take care of a parent at home, and if you`re trying to figure out how to take care of kids and pay for the rest of the things you have to in this life, you`re getting a child tax cut for working and middle class families. My mom and dad raised six kids, my sister had a serious developmental disability. I can tell you what, there were a lot of weeks when funds were tight. That would have meant a lot in their marriage when they were starting out.

There`s so much more in here, if you care about the climate, if you care about moving the needle on so many things that have been holding our country back. We`re really excited to tell people about this. We don`t expect them to know it. We`ve got to go out and explain to the American public what`s in the bill, but we know it`s going to work a miracle in a lot of lives out there.

Let Kevin McCarthy rant. People who care about their country should feel good tonight.

O`DONNELL: There`s also in the legislation, the strongest version of tax credit for the purchase of -- to buyers of electric vehicles, people who go shopping for a new car, they`re going to be looking at everything out there, when they start looking at the electric vehicles, there`s going to be a $7,500 tax credit on every electric vehicle, but on the electric vehicles that were built by union labor, those are going to have as high as a $12,500 credit. That`s basically just taking 12,500 off whatever sticker you`re looking at.

MALONEY: Yeah, isn`t that amazing, and you`ll be able to drive that car from coast to coast with the thousands of electric vehicle charging stations that we`re installing with good-paying union labor all over the country. I mean, you`ve got it, and when you add that to the other infrastructure projects there`s a reason that pipe fitters and plumbers and carpenters, and iron workers are standing up with Democrats just like they did with me the other day in Newburgh, New York, to say this is jobs as far as the eye can see.

Millions, millions of jobs, good paying jobs, you can raise a family on that are going to get created every year under the infrastructure bill, and under the investments we`re making our families. So, don`t take our word for it. Talk to the men and women who work for a living who take a shower after work. They`ll tell you this is a good day


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Kevin McCarthy says that the American people do not want or need the family support that`s in this legislation. He says that the child tax credit will basically corrupt people and make them not want to work.

MALONEY: Right. And he said the same thing about Medicare, and he said the same thing about the Affordable Care Act, and they say the same thing about every investment we make in work in the middle-class families. They don`t mind so much about giving tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires, and you know, that 90 minutes he spent out there on the House floor, well, that`s 90 minutes more than he`s ever spent trying to bring down the cost of prescription drugs for people.

It`s an hour-and-a-half more than he`s ever spent trying to make sure people who don`t have health insurance can get it. I mean, my goodness, what are we talking about? He should talk to the 128,000 folks that are going to be affected in my district by that tax cut for working- and middle-class people. I hear from them every day. It means they can get their car fixed if it breaks and keep going to work.

It means that the groceries don`t run out on Thursday when you need them until Saturday so you can go shopping again. Look, anybody who grew up in a family where you had to watch every dollar knows what this means.

O`DONNELL: Congressman Sean Patrick Maloney, thank you very much for joining us on this important night.

MALONEY: My pleasure. It`s a good night.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, after Congressman Paul Gosar was censured by the House yesterday, his sister Jennifer Gosar joined us last night. His brother, Tim Gosar, will join us next.



O`DONNELL: Yesterday, before he became the 24th person in history to be censured by the House of Representatives, Paul Gosar said this.


REP. PAUL GOSAR (R-AZ): It was not my purpose to make anyone upset. I voluntarily took the cartoon down, not because it was itself a threat, but because some thought it was. Out of compassion for those who genuinely felt offense, I self-censured.


O`DONNELL: Compassion. Here was his sister`s reaction to that last night on this program.


JENNIFER GOSAR, REP. PAUL GOSAR`S SISTER: It`s absolutely garbage, Lawrence, and in fact, he re-tweeted it today. Today. After that censure vote, my brother re-tweeted that same anime video that was copied to him by another admirer.


O`DONNELL: And after Jennifer Gosar said that last night, her brother once again deleted that new tweet with video animation of him assassinating Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And so it seems Paul Gosar is either a pathological liar or mentally ill in a way that sends him into spasms of public self-contradiction. I`ll ask his brother about that in a moment.

Today Republican House leader Kevin McCarthy sounded like he`s ready to turn next year`s congressional elections into a national voter referendum on Paul Gosar.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you plan to give Marjorie Taylor Greene and Paul Gosar their committee assignments back if you take the majority?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): They`ll committees. The committee assignment they have now, they may have other committee assignments. They may have better committee assignments. I think with Gosar, those are the ones he wants. Taylor Greene, she was just a freshman. I know she has requested others. She has a right to serve on committees.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Tim Gosar, brother of Congressman Paul Gosar.

Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. What was it like for you yesterday watching your brother censured by the House of Representatives?

TIM GOSAR, REP. PAUL GOSAR`S BROTHER: Good evening, Lawrence. It`s great to be here. Thank you for having me. Appropriate. I mean, I think the conduct and what`s happened fits the crime and the punishment fit, so it was appropriate. Disappointing that he`s pushed things this far and he`s become this unhinged, but the censure was totally appropriate.

O`DONNELL: So we saw him on the House floor yesterday afternoon say out of compassion he deleted the tweet that the video was in. And then, as your sister pointed out here last night, after the vote, after he was censured, he then re-tweeted it, in effect, tweeted the video once again, and then a few hours after that, after your sister mentioned it here, he then deleted it again.

What are we watching there? What is happening to that man as he goes through that day doing those things?

T. GOSAR: He has no regard for Speaker Pelosi, the rule of law, or the House norms and customs. He believes in the cult of Trump and that is the true leader of this country. He`s one of Trump`s fascist foot soldiers and he believes that he is above the law, Lawrence, and you referenced it earlier that he`s either mentally ill or, you know, he does whatever he wants to do, and either one of those makes you unfit for office.

And that is the status here. He is unfit for office. But I believe that Speaker Pelosi could re-censure him.

O`DONNELL: You`ve been watching him longer than any of us. What do you think it is? Do you think your brother is mentally ill?

T. GOSAR: Well, I mean, I think growing up, there were some issues, right. I think he had some issues with telling the truth. We used to call him in our family telling windies, and so Paul was the windy teller in our family. I think coupled with that is he doesn`t have the requisite skills for this job. He`s not intelligent enough, he`s not a good listener, he`s immature and insecure.


He doesn`t surround himself with people that check his worst impulses and ideas, so basically what he`s done is he`s traded integrity, character, honesty for power, and power if he had to steal it, no problem. Power if he has to try to organize a plot to overthrow the government and steal it that way, no problem. So could he be, you know, suffering from some sort of mental deficiency, sure, but he also has some character issues as well, and he has traded those character traits that we were taught for power.

O`DONNELL: As I recall, you first came out with your sister as a family in opposition to your brother`s political -- his reelection basically in 2018. You have been saying for a while as your sister has that he`s getting worse. What is it like for you as a family to be trying to deal with this?

T. GOSAR: Jennifer, Dave, and I feel like we have to come forward, push back against this sort of fascist authoritarian idea that he is, you know, right, front and center of, but also to clear our good name. We aren`t like this. Integrity, honor, character are the hallmarks of what we were taught, and I believe what each of us has in our lives, except for Paul, except for Paul.

So it`s about confronting the dangers to our country and to our democracy, but it`s also to show people that that`s not how we were raised and that`s not who we are.

O`DONNELL: Tim Gosar, I really -- I have to tell you, I really admire how you and your sister and your brother have handled this situation. It`s been a difficult one, I`m sure. And it`s a model for the rest of us of how to handle something like this if we`re ever in something like this.

Tim Gosar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

T. GOSAR: Thank you, Lawrence, for having me.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, there could be an update in the federal guidelines for coronavirus vaccine booster shots tomorrow. What you need to know about all of that is next.



O`DONNELL: There will be an update in the federal guidelines for coronavirus vaccine booster shots tomorrow. The FDA is expected to authorize coronavirus boosters for all adults nationwide as soon as tomorrow. Currently the CDC recommends booster shots for those aged 65 and older and adults over 18 who are at a greater risk of infection because of underlying conditions or increased risk of exposure.

Fourteen states and New York City have already expanded access to booster shots beyond the federal guidelines. Public health officials in California earlier this month sent a letter to local health care and vaccine providers that said, "In part do not turn a patient away who is requesting a booster if the person is 18 or older and has waited the required period after their first vaccine series."

Earlier this evening, Dr. Anthony Fauci said this in a discussion with Chris Hayes.


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Vaccine efficacy wanes over several months. It`s still a very, very effective vaccine, but as we`ve seen from studies in Israel, most recently from the U.K., when you boost an individual with a third shot who has had an MRNA boost, that you dramatically increase the protection against infection, against hospitalization, and in the Israeli study, even against death.

So there`s no doubt about it, the data are very clear. What I like about what will likely happen tomorrow is that there`s no more ambiguity, no more people are going to try and figure out what category do I fit in or not.


FAUCI: If you`re 18 or older, and you`ve been primarily vaccinated, go get boostered.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Dr. Kavita Patel. She was White House health policy director during the Obama administration. She`s a clinical physician, a Brookings Institution fellow and an MSNBC medical contributor.

Dr. Patel, I take it we should all get a booster now?

DR. KAVITA PATEL, MSNBC MEDICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, Lawrence, and especially, I think, as you heard Dr. Fauci say, six months from your primary series we`re seeing cases across the country double digit increases, and a shift where more people who are vaccinated, not many, but more than before are coming through with breakthrough infections and the ones ending up in the hospital tend to be people who had qualified for a booster and didn`t get one, and I think it`s because of that ambiguity and the confusion.

O`DONNELL: So how did we get to the ambiguity, and then it seems like what Dr. Fauci was saying is, as of tomorrow, the ambiguity is going to be over.

PATEL: Yes, I mean, it`s been months in the making. Look, first we had the Biden administration talk about boosters being available for everyone in September. Then you had the FDA and CDC advisory committees meet and put the brakes on it, saying, listen, the data is not there. It`s there for select populations, over 65, certain people with chronic conditions, but not everyone, and I think that really, Lawrence, just put a lot of public health officials, doctors like me, pharmacists in an awkward position because people were confused and many of us were confused, and then fast forward to here we are, finally facing increasing cases, something of a fifth wave as many of us are seeing on the ground, and we`re all just trying to kind of prevent as much as possible.

And the booster is what I think naturally would happen in a vaccine series. This isn`t a failure of the primary series. This is a novel virus. We`ve never had a vaccine for it before and as we`re learning like many other viruses, we need at least three doses, maybe more, but at least for now, three doses to constitute a full immunity for at least a year.


O`DONNELL: Now when they put the brakes on, did more information and more data get clarified that, OK, there`s no need for a break here, let`s just go ahead with everybody getting a booster?

PATEL: Yes, I think it was two things. One, there was a pretty compelling set of data from Pfizer, 10,000 patients, average age was 53 years. People who were completely healthy as well as those with chronic conditions, and it showed that this booster wasn`t effective, it`s basically bringing immunity back up to the levels after that original series, which is incredible, and preventing hospitalization and death.

This, combined with growing U.K. data, growing data from the E.U. as well as from Israel all just leading to the same conclusion that we really do need a booster to be completely vaccinated for the coronavirus.

O`DONNELL: And is there any sense at this stage what the efficacy of the booster will be? If you get a booster on December 1st, you`re covered for how long?

PATEL: Now so that`s going to be, I think, the next series. We do hope that it`s longer than six months, and I think that`s why none of us can say, you know, Lawrence, you`ll need a shot every year, every six months. We don`t know, but we`re hoping that this lasts a little bit longer than the six months that we know the original series lasts.

Here`s the good news. And a lot of Americans don`t realize it. That unlike the first series where you have to wait two weeks after that second dose, you really do get the benefits of that boost approximately 48 hours after that dose, almost immediately. So having this authorized tomorrow, Lawrence, and having the ability to start giving boosters to everyone over the age 18 as early as Saturday can make a big difference going into the weekend next week.

O`DONNELL: No, that actually clarifies my thinking. I was thinking about when do I schedule a booster.

PATEL: Right.

O`DONNELL: And I was thinking about when am I going to get on an airplane next, I should do it two weeks before that. You`re telling me you don`t have to add that into your calculation.

PATEL: No, you don`t. We have (INAUDIBLE) plots of kind of the immunity reaction, the clinical reaction, as well as what we see in a microbiology fashion, technically, and we do see a response. Think of it as really this is the boost to prime what your body has already gotten used to from that original series. So the reaction is much quicker.

O`DONNELL: Dr. Kavita Patel, thank you very much. I learned a lot. Really appreciate it.

PATEL: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

Tonight`s LAST WORD is next.



O`DONNELL: Today, this happened.


SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): I applaud the Biden administration for this historic nomination. Professor Omarova will be the first woman, the first person of color, the first immigrant to serve as the Comptroller of the Currency. She`s one of the most qualified nominees ever for this job. She`s widely regarded as a leading expert on banking, law, and policy. She holds a doctorate from University of Wisconsin-Madison and a law degree from Northwestern.


O`DONNELL: Comptroller of the Currency is a job in the Treasury Department established during Abraham Lincoln`s presidency. The first Comptroller of the Currency, Hugh McAuliffe, like Abraham Lincoln, was not a college graduate. The last Senate-confirmed Comptroller of the Currency appointed by Donald Trump was at least a college graduate, but like me, he was no more than a college graduate.

And that was good enough for every Republican senator to vote to confirm Joseph Awning, who is now living in Las Vegas where he owns a golf club, tennis facility, and spa. President Biden`s nominee for Comptroller of the Currency is Professor Saule Omarova, whose previous service in government was in the Treasury Department for Republican president George W. Bush.

Today Professor Omarova, the most academically distinguished nominee for Comptroller of the Currency in history, who was born in Soviet-controlled Kazakhstan, faced an ugly challenge from a Republican senator who is always lying whenever he says the words, "I don`t mean any disrespect."


SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Good morning, Professor.


KENNEDY: You used to be a member of a group called the Young Communists, didn`t you?

OMAROVA: Senator, are you referring to my membership in the Youth Communist Organization while I was growing up in the Soviet Union?

KENNEDY: I don`t know. I just -- I wanted to ask you that question.

OMAROVA: Senator. I was born and grew up in the Soviet Union.

KENNEDY: Yes, ma`am, but were you a member of that organization?

OMAROVA: Everybody in that country was a member of the Komsomol, which was the Communist Youth Organization. That was --

KENNEDY: So you were -- you were a member?

OMAROVA: That was a part of normal progress in school.

KENNEDY: I don`t mean any disrespect. I don`t know whether to call you professor or comrade.

OMAROVA: Senator, I`m not a communist. I do not subscribe to that ideology. I could not choose where I was born. My family suffered under the communist regime. I grew up without knowing half of my family. My grandmother herself escaped death twice under the Stalin regime. This is what`s seared in my mind. That`s who I am. I remember that history.

I came to this country. I`m proud to be an American. And this is why I`m here today, Senator. I`m here today because I`m ready for public service.


O`DONNELL: Professor Saule Omarova gets tonight`s LAST WORD.