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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 10/1/21

Guests: Paul Butler; Becky Pringle; Wes Hodge


Jan 6th, Committee Could Use Criminal Contempt Referrals For Witness Who Defy Subpoenas; Rep. Raskin: Jan 6 Committee Exploring Possible Links Between Trump Orbit & Far-Right Groups; Government: Watchdog Mobs Overwhelmed Park Police Hours Before Capitol Was Breached; School Boards Request Help To Combat Threats; Threat & Violence Against School Boards Rise Sharply.



JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC HOST: Yes. It`s been a bananas day, Ali, but I have to ask you before I let you go. Given the travels that you make around the country and I can`t wait the see your discussion with the folks there in San Antonio. But given your travels around the country, I just wonder, are you more hopeful than, say, the stories that we cover and the politics that we have to cover?

ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: It`s an interesting question. I`ll say this. I am more worried about disinformation because I run into it all the time. But when people -- I bring groups of six people together all the time. Sometimes from different parties, sometimes with opposing views, and they manage to have a good conversation with each other all the time.

So I am much more hopeful about the -- that discourse can get us somewhere, that empathy still lives, but people are dwelling off of a lot of bad information. They are making decisions off of entirely false information, usually that they are getting off of social media. That part worries me.

CAPEHART: All right. Well, I look forward to your conversation on Saturday -- you said Saturday?

VELSHI: Saturday and Sunday. I`ll bring it to -- out to both days.

CAPEHART: Okay. All right. Well, I`ll see you on Sunday, Ali.

VELSHI: I`ll see you Sunday morning.

CAPEHART: Thanks very much.

VELSHI: Thanks friend.

CAPEHART: We`re going to get this done. Just maybe not today. That`s how President Biden described the state of his spending plans after meeting with the House Democratic Caucus this afternoon, one day after the House missed its self-imposed deadline to vote on the Senate-passed bipartisan infrastructure bill.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I`m telling you, we`re going to get this done.


BIDEN: It doesn`t matter when. It doesn`t matter whether it`s in six minutes, six days, or six weeks. We`re going to get it done.


CAPEHART: President Biden called on House Democrats to delay voting on the bipartisan infrastructure bill until they reached an agreement on the larger reconciliation bill. According to NBC News, President Biden told Democrats that negotiations on the budget reconciliation bill are now in the $1.9 trillion to $2.3 trillion range. That`s well below the original goal of $3.5 trillion.

After the meeting, the chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, acknowledged that progressives would need to come to the table with cuts in mind.


REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): He was very clear the two are tied together. We`re going to have to get -- and look, he said, I support them both entirely. If I thought I could do it right now, I would, but we need to get this reconciliation bill. And you know, it`s going to be tough. Like, we are going to have to come down in our number and we are going to have to do that work. So, we`re going to get to work and see what we can get to.


CAPEHART: Tonight, in a letter to Democrats, Speaker Pelosi made it clear that the House will pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill once there`s an agreement on the larger spending bill.

"While great progress has been made in negotiations to develop a House, Senate, and White House agreement on the Build Back Better Act, more time is needed to complete the task. Our Chairs are still working for clarity and consensus. Clearly, the bipartisan infrastructure bill will pass once we have agreement on the reconciliation bill."

Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan. She is the senior Democratic whip. Congresswoman Dingell, great to see you again. You were in that meeting with the president. How was it?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): You know, I think it was great for everybody to hear from the president, understand what he wants from us as a caucus, what his priorities are. You know, I have said for a week, as you know, we are unified at the caucus and failure isn`t an option. We`ve got to get this done. We`ve got to get both bills done. Build Back Better bill has so many critical (inaudible) in it (inaudible) and now we are all rolling up our sleeves and going to get both of these bills done.

CAPEHART: Congresswoman, what was the mood inside the room? I`ve been wondering was there a sense that moderates and progressive will come together on this.

DINGELL: I think -- I think people want to tear the caucus apart and the caucus knows we`ve got to get this done. I say the "D" in Democrats for deliver. And we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do things like get lead out of pipes (inaudible). There is a study that shows that 50 percent (inaudible) have lead in their blood.

And, you know, I`m from Detroit. I`m an (inaudible). We made a plan to get to 50 percent EV sales by near 2030. That is the perfect (inaudible). There are a lot of things that we all want. (Inaudible) in my district alone (inaudible). We got to build resiliency. We need to get all of that done. We`re going to have to figure out how we come together and get it done.


CAPEHART: Let me have you listen to what your colleague, Congressman Peter Welch, said earlier today.


REP. PETER WELCH (D-VT): The focus for us, I think, should be less on the number than on what those policies are because that`s what is popular with people. Like in West Virginia, there would be about $80 million coming to families with kids. In Arizona, there would be $400 million going to families with kids in reduced taxes.

When you have Pre-K, you have paid family leave, things that are really good for you whether you voted for Trump or you voted for Biden. That`s the strength of what the Build Back Better bill is.


CAPEHART: Do you agree? Should Democrats be focused more on the policies and less on the price tag when selling this bill to their constituents?

DINGELL: Absolutely. But by the way, the president made it very clear. He said, when I ask you what you want in this bill, I`m not talking numbers. What is it that your constituents want to want? What are the policies that you appreciate? That`s where we need to begin. Each of us represents different districts of different needs and it encouraged me to sort of say (inaudible) talking what are the programs that are met, critical. What do we need to -- they were met is how I think the caucus needs to be talking about this.

CAPEHART: Yes, and you know, Congressman Dingell, I`m wondering, why are we having -- why are we having this conversation now about why aren`t we talking about what`s in -- what people want as opposed to the price tag? Has it been a mistake among Democrats to have this fight over 3.5 as opposed to specifically what the 3.5 would pay for programmatically?

DINGELL: You know, Jonathan, I would actually argue with you that the media has made this 3.5 figure a big discussion deal. But we have been talking inside of our caucus for the last year. I mean, first on the American Recovery Plan and all the different programs that we know that we need to deliver on.

Global climate (inaudible) to talk about (inaudible) 3 million women have left the work force because of a lack of child care. And I`m someone that`s very focused on senior care, long term care. These are all issues that we have been talking about all year. And now we are talking about how are we going to deliver to the American people on these very issues.

CAPEHART: Okay. Point taken on the criticism, Congresswoman. But I have to ask you this. How concerned are you about what happens in the midterms if, say, Democrats can`t pass both bills?

DINGELL: Look, I keep saying failure is not an option. You have heard me say this at (inaudible). It`s not an option. They are expecting us. We elected Joe Biden on the Build Back Better Plan. This is what he campaigned on. This is what he said he would deliver. Many of us also talked to our communities, talked to the people who elected us and talked about these priorities.

That`s what we have to focus on right now. We have got to focus on delivering the Build Back Better Plan and what those issues are. And when will we deliver for the American people, we won`t have to worry about the midterms than we should.

CAPEHART: All right. We`re going to have the leave it there. Congresswoman Debbie Dingell of Michigan, thank you very much for coming to "The Last Word."

DINGELL: Thank you. Be safe.

CAPEHART: All right. You, too. Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Mark Pocan of Wisconsin. He is the former chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Congressman Pocan, great to see you again. Did you hear what you needed to hear from President Biden today?

REP. MARK POCAN (D-WI): Yes, thanks for having me, Jonathan. Absolutely. You know, it`s the same thing he said to us a week ago in the White House. He`s extremely committed to this agenda, which is why we were committed to this agenda. These is really -- these are going to be big benefits we`re delivering to American families.

And, you know, he came today saying, look, we`re going to get both of these bills done. We`re going to have to do a little compromising. We`ve been waiting for the last week for a few folks to come to the table. I think now that process has begun.

And, you know, I think it`s just a matter of time that we`re going to have a really strong package of these two bills done, the Build Back Better agenda, and the American people are really going to see some great benefits for their families.

CAPEHART: So, it sounds like you still feel the same way you did earlier today because earlier today you said that you feel confident both bills will get done, it`s just a question of when. So, all these hours later, you are still in the same place?

POCAN: I`m going to quote your words back to you from Sunday. This is the storm before the calm, and much of this is just part of the legislative making, you know, sausage-making process. Some of this, as Debbie Dingell just said, has been quite honestly, not you Jonathan, but other reporters saying what day are you going to vote? Not what are you going vote on? What day are you going to vote? Or, you know, talking about the number rather than what`s in the bill.


We`re focused on what`s in the bill. We`re going to make sure that this tax break for 40 million American families happen. We`re going to make sure that child care provisions and community college provisions and paying less for prescription drugs, all those provisions that save American families is get passed.

We`re going to create millions of jobs many of which tackle climate change and it`s paid for. The bill will be paid for by people who make more than $400,000 and corporations that haven`t paid their fair share. That`s the president`s agenda and we will get that done.

CAPEHART: You know, the storm before the calm looks a little more, you know, serious than usual because I think we`ve sort of forgotten what legislating looks likes over the last few years. You know, Congressman Pocan, your colleague, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez today told reporters that a framework is not enough. Have a listen.


UNKNOWN: Is a framework enough, an agreed upon framework?

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): We need a vote. We need to be real. Are we going to be deliver universal Pre-K to this country or not? Are we going to expand health care to our seniors and include vision and dental or not? Are we going to invest in housing so that people back home in NYCHA can actually get hot water in wintertime or not? That`s what we need to know.


CAPEHART: Now, Congressman Pocan, I`ll admit, I don`t know if that -- if what the congresswoman said was before or after the meeting with the president. But to your mind, do you -- do you need a vote or will a framework on what will be in the reconciliation be enough for you?

POCAN: I think that was before the president came and then after the president, all of us, including Alexandria were in a meeting of the Progressive Caucus. And what we said is, you know, ideally we have a vote to ensure it`s going to happen in the Senate, but at minimum, an ironclad agreement.

And that doesn`t just mean a framework. That means something that there is no way that someone in the Senate can go back and somehow change things after there`s agreement. But again, I think everyone`s working towards this. That`s the good news. I don`t think anyone wants to go back to Arizona or New Mexico and say, yes, I didn`t deliver child care because we couldn`t agree to something because there wasn`t enough trust.

I think these are Democratic values. They are American values. And because of it I really believe it`s just a matter of time to work this out with a couple of senators and a handful or so of folks in the House. But, you know, the other several hundred of us are rowing together and again, I`m still as confident as I have been that these two bills will pass.

CAPEHART: You know, you used an interesting word there a moment ago. And that`s the word trust. And so far, leading up to -- until the meeting with the president, it didn`t seem like there was a whole lot of trust between House Democrats and Senate Democrats. Has that trust been repaired somewhat since the meeting with the president?

POCAN: You know, what we`ve been asking for and the president asked for last week when I was at the White House, he was saying tell us what you`re for. That`s what he was asking for. And then finally this week, about mid- week, we kind of got from Senator Manchin what he`s for. We have a little idea what Senator Sinema is for.

Once you know what you are all talking about we can negotiate. That`s what we`ve really been trying to get. So, again, it`s not so important that it happens in a week or two weeks, but it`s -- that we now have some idea of the values that we`re all going to be able to negotiate over.

And once we have that, because we are all Democrats, I mean, these are things that all of our constituents are going to benefit from. Its imperative we get it done, again, as Debbie Dingell said. And, you know, every conversation I have with even the most conservative Democrats on our caucus, we all want to deliver on this.

Si, I`m very assured that we are going to get something done. It`s just a matter of at what point. And again, I don`t think that`s as important as what is in the bills we pass.

CAPEHART: It`s a big day on Capitol Hill. Congressman Mark Pocan, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

Coming up, the infrastructure conversation continues with our panel, Jonathan Kott, Maria Teresa Kumar, and Jonathan Alter. That`s next.




JEN PSAKI, WHITE PRESS SECRETARY: I would say anyone who`s ever been through a legislative fight before or covered it on the Hill knows that the negotiations and the deal making always happens at the end. It doesn`t matter how the process works or how many weeks there are. It always happens at the end. We`re clearly at the late stages of the process here. This is exactly the moment where people put their bottom lines down. They put their best ideas forward and there is heavy negotiating. And that`s exactly what`s happening.


CAPEHART: Storm before the calm. Joining us now are Jonathan Kott, former communications director and senior adviser to Senator Joe Manchin. Jonathan Alter, columnist for "The Daily Beast" and an MSNBC political analyst, and Maria Teresa Kumar, president and CEO of Voter Latino and an MSNBC contributor. Thank you all very much for being here.

Jonathan Kott, I`m going to start with you since you know the man that everyone has been talking about and that`s Senator Joe Manchin. These last- minute negotiations began yesterday with Senator Manchin making his top line number clear.

Now, our reporting is that President Biden has told House Democrats the top line number is somewhere between $1.9 trillion to $2.3 trillion. Does that sound like something Senator Manchin can support?

JONATHAN KOTT, FORMER ADVISER TO SEN. JOE MANCHIN: I think so. And I think he put out his -- first off, he put out that proposal earlier in the summer. So, he was laying out where he was comfortable with based on what revenue we could generate so it was paid for, and then based on what he thought the priorities were that the country needed to address.

And I think he is willing to work with the president. He is willing to work with anybody to get something done and that`s just what he`s here to do. He wants to negotiate a deal. He wants to find a compromise. He did it on the $1.2 trillion infrastructure deal and I`m (inaudible) he will do it on reconciliation.


CAPEHART: Jonathan Alter, what impact do you think President Biden`s trip to the capitol will have?

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it had a big impact. It was kind of like a chill pill for the Democratic caucus like, you know, we got this. This is going to happen. It might not happen in the next six minutes but more likely in the next six days. I hope it is not the next six weeks because then it starts to get in the way of Joe Manchin`s arguably historically important bill that he wrote.

He sponsored -- not just sponsored, but co-wrote, the Freedom to Vote Act, which will protect our democracy that he co-wrote with Amy Klobuchar. So we`ve got to make sure that we have room and time for that that bill. And that means getting passed these budget negotiations as quickly as possible.

CAPEHART: Yes. Not only that, but also don`t forget that the X date for crashing through the debt ceiling is October 18th.

ALTER: Right.

CAPEHART: So that`s in 17 days.

ALTER: That`s true.

CAPEHART: Maria Teresa, Congresswoman Jayapal said President Biden promised that both bills will be linked again. Do you think progressives will believe the president? It sounds like the Congresswoman Jayapal does.

MARIA TERSA KUMAR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTIR: Well, I think that the ones that are more disappointed that he didn`t divorce the two bills are the centrists in the Democratic Party. They were hoping that they were going to do business as usual and that later on they were going to discuss how the people that are voting to be building -- how the vote wars were going to be built quite frankly.

And this is a testament to the Biden administration recognizing who helps get him elected to power and it is a multicultural America who is demanding a progressive agenda especially coming out of a pandemic where so many Americans have been impacted both on the economic front and on the health front.

And when the -- you know, when Psaki today said that negotiations happen until the last minute, she is absolutely right, Jonathan. I used to work on appropriations and this is how the hustle happens. This is where it (inaudible) gets really good because people start being very honest of what their bottom line is. And there is almost a better reading of the tea leaves so to speak.

So what she say is not wrong. It`s more all the time when we have is negotiations are arbitrary deadlines. Is there was no sunset in this. There were no default for that matter. It was more of okay, let`s keep pushing it down, but let`s be clear that we`re not going to divorce these two bills.

CAPEHART: You know, I mean, for Congress, there`s nothing like a deadline to focus the mind. But, you know, Jonathan, Jonathan Kott, you know, some protesters in kayaks including West Virginians confronted Senator Manchin on his House vote about getting reconciliation done. I know you`ve seen it, but watch.


UNKNOWN: They made it.

UNKNOWN: Hold pharma accountable.

SEN. JOE MANCHINI (D-WV): I agree you with one thousand percent. We are on the same page, gang. We really are.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible)


UNKNOWN: Adding dental, vision and hearing coverage to Medicare, that`s a real opportunity that we can do.

MACNHIN: Well, we have -- let me just explain on that one. We will get to that eventually, but right now we can`t even take care of -- it`s going to go broke in 2026. Let us fix and repair that first.

UNKNOWN: No, that`s not true.

UNKNOWN: Tax the rich.

MANCHIN: We`re taxing the rich. I agree. We`re going to make the rich and the famous pay.


CAPEHART: So, Jonathan, what do you think of that exchange?

KOTT: I think that is what he does every day. I, I mean, working for him for seven years, you couldn`t go anywhere in West Virginia and not have him stop for hours and talk to people. He would see people on the street, they would come up to him on the way to vote. People would yell out his name and he would stop and talk to them.

He was constantly late for stuff because he just wants to talk to people. And if you`re a West Virginian, you`re going to get to talk to him whether you walk up to him, whether you take a kayak or you drive. I mean, you`re finding some way to get his ear, but I think you heard there.

He is willing to listen and talk to anybody. He is laying out what he wants to get done. He wants to work so we make sure we have -- we protect the social programs we already have. And he is willing to protect young children. He`s willing to protect seniors. He just wants to make sure those most vulnerable get it and that we pay for it.

CAPEHART: You know, Jonathan Alter, Senator Sinema left Washington for a medical appointment. But as the "New York Times" reports, on Saturday she is also scheduled to attend her Political Action Committee`s retreat with donors at a high-end resort and spa in Phoenix. Can you explain what her game is? What is Senator Sinema`s game?

ALTER: Well, she`s not up until 2024 so I`m not sure why she has the raise this money right now. She goes to the beat of her own drum and that`s fine. You know, this idea that you read in the "New York Times" and other places that Democrats are feuding is just wrong. They are not feuding. They are legislating.

This is what it`s supposed to be like. Of course, it`s ugly when you shine a spotlight on it, but you know, the process is ungamely, but it is working.


And by the way, if they don`t get dental for Medicare, which the dentists are completely against and they are pretty powerful. But if for whatever reason they don`t get it, people shouldn`t cry in their beer. I think they should keep in mind a date in January that is not January 6th. January 4th. That`s when the Democrats got two Georgia Senate seats.

Why do I mention that? Do you know how much Democrats in the country would have gotten if that election had gone a different direction? Zero. Do you know how much they are likely to get now? More than $4 trillion. So people should take yes for an answer and celebrate the victory that comes out of this even if it doesn`t meet all of their expectation.

CAPEHART: Take yes for an answer. You know, Maria Teresa, DNC Chair Jamie Harrison was on with Joy Reid tonight. Have a listen to what he Had to say. I`ll ask you about it on the other side.


JAMIE HARRISON, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIR: The bid between 1.5 and 3.5 that is a beltway to beat. In the barbershops and the beauty shops, all they care about is what are you doing for me and my family and my community? And so that`s the thing that I am telling my members you got to focus on.

Just get something done so that we can go to the American people and say when we ran the last time we promised you this. Now, when we are in power, we were able to deliver this. Now, we need a bigger majority so we can do even more.


CAPEHART: I mean, technically, Maria Teresa, that`s the Jonathan Alter rule. Take yes for an answer.

KUMAR: I think what he is saying is that you voted, your vote works, because you are now getting economic relief. But I do have to say that it`s not just enough of economic relief. It`s also communicating. What these challenges that the Democrats are facing is that people have the child tax credit hit their accounts in the middle of July, paying it forward, and they`re not quite sure how the money got there.

So, unless the Democrats communicate, over-communicate that it is the fact that they voted and a Democratic majority is what is now allowing for economic relief, it`s going to get lost. That`s one. The other is that I do think that Sinema, while she does dance to the beat of her own drum, she`s in trouble in Arizona.

The fact that the Arizona Democratic Party, Raquel Teran, has basically said that she has to get in line with the values of the Democratic Party in Arizona that there is huge draft of creating a path against Sinema. You have now three different organizations coming out fiercely saying we`re going to raise money for your opponent if you do not get in line with the Democratic values and with the Biden agenda.

And there is another one that is saying draft Ruben Gallego, the congressman from Arizona. I think she might be in more trouble than folks actually realize.

CAPEHART: Jonathan Alter, how devastating would it be if only the bipartisan infrastructure bill passed or neither of these bills pass for Democrats` hold on Congress, but also President Biden`s hold on the White House when he has to run for re-election in four years?

ALTER: Devastating. So, you know, this is an Apollo 13 situation for the Democrats. As everybody has been saying, failure is just not an option. You can`t go to the American people and ask them to have you hold the Congress or hold the White House and not have delivered on your domestic program. It just doesn`t compute.

And it would make it extraordinarily difficult for Joe Biden to get re- elected and for Democrats to hold the House and Senate next year if they don`t pass these two bills. And that`s why it`s going to happen.

CAPEHART: You know, we`ve got the makings of a law firm here. I think we`ve made history as well. Three Jonathans on one screen. And also, we sounds like a law firm, Kott, Kumar, Alter and Capehart. But Jonathan Kott, Jonathan Alter, and Maria Teresa Kumar, thank you for joining us tonight.

Coming up, new information tonight from the January 6th select committee. The panel is considering criminal contempt referrals for witnesses who defy their subpoenas. More on that next.


CAPEHART: Breaking tonight Chairman Bennie Thompson told NBC News that the January 6th Select Committee has been meeting, including today with voluntary witnesses while also preparing to use criminal contempt referrals for subpoenaed witnesses who defy their orders.


REP. BENNIE THOMPSON, CHAIR, JAN 6 SELECT COMMITTEE: We did 11 subpoenas this week, we started questioning some of the volunteer witnesses today. And we`ll continue that process. We`ll have other subpoenas scheduled to come out. And we`ll continue to do our work.

ALI VITALI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: In terms of depositions. I know that some of them are coming close for meadows and others. Do you think that they`re going to show up? Have you heard from those legal teams?

THOMPSON: Well, one thing I can say is the committee will probably for those who don`t agree to come in voluntarily. We`ll do criminal referrals and let that process work out.


CAPEHART: Joining us now is Paul Butler, a Former Federal Prosecutor. He is a Law Professor at Georgetown University and an MSNBC Legal Analyst. Paul, great to see you. So is the criminal contempt referral, the best way to ensure that witnesses comply with the committee`s requests.

PAUL BUTLER, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR: There`s nothing like the threat of going to prison until you cooperate, to make reluctant witnesses will come clean. And so the difference between this administration and the Trump administration is that Trumps justice department wasn`t going to enforce the subpoenas from Congress. Biden`s Justice Department has a very different posture. And so a lot of these witnesses are huffing and bluffing. We don`t have to come. But make no mistake. The threat of prison will be a powerful incentive.

CAPEHART: You know, listen to Congressman Jamie Raskin, who`s a member of the Select Committee on MSNBC last night.


REP JAMIE RASKIN, (D-MD): We`re just trying to fill in the details now. And we are trying to figure out exactly what the connections are between the Trump entourage and the Trump White House and the oath keepers, the 3 percenters, the different armed insurrection groups, and who paid for the attack from the U.S. Congress because you don`t knock over the Capitol of the United States of America for free.


CAPEHART: You know, Paul, are those, the main questions to answer?

BUTLER: Yes, I think so, Jonathan, so the January 6, insurrection was not as spontaneous event. It`s not just like 1000s of insurrection just showed up and decided right then and there to take over the Capitol. There was obviously financing organization, administration, and the select committee, as subpoena literally 1000s and 1000s of documents, and some of Trump`s closest allies, including his Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, and Steve Bannon, so they want to know what the relationship is between the White House and the insurrectionist, did they ornate and plan together?

CAPEHART: You know, Paul, there are some incredible audio has been released from the ethics watchdog crew more than eight hours of never before heard police radio recordings from the U.S. Park Police on the day of the attack showing how the pro Trump mob overwhelmed law enforcement hours before the Capitol was breached.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. It`s perfect into the monument. Everyone`s breaks to the bike rack, if there`s a large crowd that`s following us we`re going back into the monument with the individual is under arrest. They`re breaking through the bike fence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re inside. There as part of the gate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prisoner is inside the base of the monument with multiple Park Police officers that they are completely surrounded with protesters and are trying to figure out a plan has to get the price arrestee down to the wagon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I have both my squad of horse set up here on the south side; if they can exit the building and come out to us we should be able to escort them all the way down to the wagon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s your ETA? We got people starting to congregate around the horses.


CAPEHART: How will this - how will information like this inform the committee`s work?

BUTLER: Well, first of all, it helps us remember how serious this was. Again, this was the most devastating attack on the United States Capitol since the war of 1812. And these law enforcement officers, some of them hate with their lives. And so what the committee is doing now is this subpoena this week went to the people who organize the rally, it went to this organization that got their permit or the rally, they have to turn over documents, and they have to submit to depositions, which will be behind closed doors. But Chairman Thompson is going in Jonathan again. He`s asking all of the questions that we would want. And at the end of this, there will be an opportunity and not just for our report, but also for criminal referrals.

CAPEHART: You`re right, Chairman Thompson is going in and I am here for it. Paul Butler, thank you for joining us. Coming up - coming up 1000s of school board members across the country are urging President Biden to protect them. As more and more educators are facing threats of violence, over COVID protocols in schools. That`s next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I`d get a comfort everybody that comes at my kid with this stupid, ridiculous mandate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know. We know. And we know it, who you are.


CAPEHART: Those are just some examples of the threats that educators are facing across the country over mask mandates. Yesterday, the National School Boards Association sent a letter to President Biden asking for federal assistance, including from law enforcement to protect students, school board members and teachers from what the letter describes as a form of domestic terrorism. "As these acts of malice, violence and threats against public school officials have increased the classification of these heinous actions could be the equivalent to a form of domestic terrorism and hate crimes".

Joining us now are Becky Pringle the President of the National Education Association and Wes Hodge, the Chair of the Democratic Party of Orange County, Florida. Thank you both for being here. Let`s watch some other threats educators are facing.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t put masks on our kids anymore, because I`m telling you what. I`m a mom who`s fearless and I will come after you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re allowing child abuse. You`re allowing child abuse, you`re allowing child abuse, you`re allowing child abuse.


CAPEHART: I`m without words, Becky what resources do you need to protect the educators and students?

BECKY PRINGLE, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION: It`s good to see you again, Jonathan. My goodness, that`s hard to watch, isn`t it? Threatening, people who have stepped up who are in public service, many of them educators, Jonathan, I don`t know if you know this or not. But many of our educators, current and retired educators have gone on to continue their service to our students in our public schools, by becoming school board members. And for them to be threatened, intimidated, bully, some of them have been straight on, their families have been threatened.

These are educators, people of the community, parents themselves, because they don`t want their children to wear masks, a proven strategy to protect the public health against COVID-19. It is unacceptable. And Jonathan, we stand with the National School Boards Association and calling on the federal government to step up and help from the Justice Department to the FBI, whoever it is that we need to ensure that all of them, our school board members, our educators, our students are safe, and continue to learn in person.

CAPEHART: You know, Becky mentioned the word you know, mentioned what`s happening at school boards Wes, you`ve also seen these threats. I want to have the audience watch what happened during a school board meeting in Orange County.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Y`all, you`re playing with some dangerous water, if you do not do the right thing. We`re not going to wave the White Flag. We`re going to waive the Black Flag, which means no quarter, no surrender. Just so you`re aware, and it`s getting real close to that time.


CAPEHART: Wes, are those death threats becoming the new normal? Well, what other threats are you seeing?

WES HODGE, CHAIRMAN ORANGE COUNTY DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Well, Jonathan, first thank you for the invitation. And Becky, I could not agree more with what you were saying. We have seen a ramp up of the rhetoric and the violence or threats of violence here in Orange County. That video was we all set there. It was absolute disbelief, listening to what we were hearing. Our school board chair has been called a Nazi.

Our school board members have been called Nazis compared to Hitler. And again, I mean, this is over a proven method to keep our students safe in school is really, really disheartening. And unfortunately, it feels like our governor here in Florida is feeding this notion that masks are somehow evil or bad.

CAPEHART: You know, Becky, I just sometimes wonder, you know, if these threats could possibly undermine the quality of education for children, I mean, is that a valid concern?

PRINGLE: It is a very valid concern, Jonathan we know that last year, just the added pressure for educators to our teachers and school bus drivers, we can`t find school bus drivers now. And other educators, who have dedicated their lives to educate and keep educating America`s students we know that with these the increase in threats against them, our administrators, in our schools, our school secretaries, who are on that front line, as people come into the buildings, we know that that additional pressure and fear has caused so many of our educators to say they are either retiring early, or many of our younger educators to say, we`re not saying the profession we know that directly impacts the quality of education our students get.

And you know, Jonathan, I taught science for over 30 years, can I just say to you, it hurts my heart. That people don`t believe in science. As a science teacher, and as an educator, for us to be in a position where they are politicizing the safety and well being of our students. It is unacceptable. And we stand with the school board members and principals and educators and the parents don`t come by the way who you`re not hearing from, because we`re showing we`re talking about the majority of the parents agree with us put in place every layer mitigation strategy to keep our students safe.

CAPEHART: And yet Wes. I mean, you`re in a state where the government - or the government, meaning the Governor Ron DeSantis is standing in the way he`s having. You know, he`s targeting schools, school districts for defying his ban on mass mandates, talking about the impact of that.

HODGE: Yes, absolutely. He has gone after any of the school boards should have put in sensible reasonable mass mandate measures to protect our students and teachers and staff. And he has targeted those specific school board members have voted in favor and withholding their salaries from the school board budgets. Fortunately, the Biden administration and the Department of Education have stepped in and fulfilled that funding.

But it`s a very, very scary thing because he is 100 percent targeting the individuals that are setting up for sensible measures here, you know what Becky said earlier, something that I`m definitely concerned about. We have these school board members right now, but you know, the outside public is looking at this where`s our next generation of school board members going to come from, they`re seeing this intimidation and these attacks and they want nothing to do with it. So I`m very scared of where we`re going down the road.

CAPEHART: Becky Pringle and West Hodge thank you for joining us tonight.

PRINGLE: Thank you.

CAPEHART: Coming up, coming up. We`re live in Haiti with the latest on the developing migrant situation. What the United Nations is saying to the Biden administration next.


CAPEHART: Last week after these images were released by a border patrol agents appearing to control Haitian migrants at the U.S. Mexico border with Horace Raines. Members of the Congressional Black Caucus raised their concerns during a White House meeting. Then after that meeting, Congressman Joyce Beatty, the chair of the caucus tweeted the Black Caucus is demanding answers and policy changes to ensure America remains a beacon of hope for refugees. Asylum is and always will be a human right.

Tonight more than 6000 of those Haitian migrants are back in Haiti after they were deported by the Biden administration. They`re returning to a country devastated by a deadly earthquake, the recent assassination of their president and escalating gang violence in the city`s capital. Now the United Nations is urging the United States government to halt deportations. Today, NBC News Correspondent Jacob Soboroff traveled by UN Aircraft to see their food distribution efforts in an area of the country devastated by the recent earthquake.

And he joins us now live from Port-au-Prince Haiti, Jacob. Glad to see you are safe on the ground there. Do we know if the White House plans to make any changes to its - to its plans to deport migrants back to Haiti?

JACOB SOBOROFF, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Jonathan it`s good to see you as well. It doesn`t sound like it, quite frankly, because there was a delegation on the ground here over the course of the last couple days from the Biden administration, led by an NSC official, as well as the official from the State Department.

And while there was an apology for the behavior of the Border Patrol towards those Haitian migrants, there wasn`t any announced plan to stop or change those deportations those expulsions to here in Port-au-Prince and two other places in Haiti. And in fact, they continued, as you mentioned, there`s over 6000 that have happened. And you know, as we are seeing on the ground to some extremely, extremely difficult circumstances here on the ground in Haiti.

CAPEHART: I mean, you just mentioned that their U.S. delegation, U.S. officials meeting with Haitian officials, but anything come out of that meeting? I know you said that the policy is not going to change. But it wasn`t just a meeting just to say, hey, we`re sorry for how it looked.

SOBOROFF: You know, we were over in Lakai, where we were with the United Nations today. And so we weren`t actually present at the meeting. But what the readout seemed to say and suggest is that, you know, they`re going to cooperate on issues like COVID, they`re going to cooperate on issues, like regional security and stability. But nothing about a change in policy, and so I think that that`s what`s so troubling to Democrats back at home is what`s troubling, you know, obviously to the migrants who are going to return here on the ground, many of whom have not been here in years, if not, as long as a decade, having left after the earthquake to go work in places like Brazil, and Chile made their way to the border only to be deported to a place.

Not only that, they don`t know that doesn`t look familiar to them any longer. But, as you said, it is the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, there`s incredible amounts of food insecurity. As we saw with the World Food Program today, the violence in the streets, the gangs control so much of this city, and much of the country. In fact, Doctors without Borders made it sound soft, Dante told us they had to stop operating one of their clinics, because it was so violent, and move everybody to another one. And again, that`s the reality that migrants are going to face when they show up on the ground here. And yet again, there were more explosive place today.

CAPEHART: I`m digging real quickly. I mean, have you have you been to Haiti before? Is this your first time to Haiti?

SOBOROFF: First time.

CAPEHART: And given that it`s your first time, and all the reporting that we`ve ever read about Haiti, particularly after natural disasters is that it is something to behold your impressions, being on the ground there real fast, it?

SOBOROFF: It`s been an extraordinary experience. And as always, you know, a report, obviously, for us a lot of migration when you talk to people here, they tell you the same thing that people in Guatemala told me that people in Tijuana have told me when are reporting in Mexico, people want to stay home, people don`t want to leave their country. This is the home of the Haitian people. Haitians don`t want to leave here.

But the conditions on the ground necessitate basically life or death decisions when it comes to their survival. And that`s why you`re hearing about more outbound migration from Haiti even today a 1000 migrants have been picked up in the Bahamas and by Cuba by boat just over the course of the last 10 days according to recent reports, and that`s not because people want to leave, it`s because they`re leaving because they feel like they have to leave.

CAPEHART: And that is the key thing to understanding all of this. People don`t want to leave home. They feel they have to leave home NBC`s, Jacob Soboroff. Thank you very much. Stay safe. That is tonight`s last word. You can catch me again on the Sunday show. This week, I`ll be joined by Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, the Chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus to discuss the latest movements on President Biden`s spending bills. That`s the Sunday show, Sunday at 10:00 a.m. Eastern on MSNBC. The 11th Hour with Brian Williams starts right now.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: And good evening once again. Day 255 now of the Biden administration, the president probably hoped his visit to the Capitol today would be a victory lap.