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Transcript: The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, 1/25/22

Guests: Jonathan Chait, Kurt Andersen, Stuart Stevens, Gabriella Cazares- Kelly

Summary

Today, Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco said the Justice Department is investigating attempts to replace Biden electors with Trump electors in states won by Joe Biden. Today, "Business Insider" notes that Newt Gingrich launched his attack on the January 6 Committee this weekend about two weeks after the panel subpoenaed his longtime former aide who also coauthored a book with him. Since the introduction of COVID-19 vaccines, Kurt Andersen says, quote, "The right`s ongoing propaganda campaign against and organized political resistance to vaccination, among other public health protocols, has been killing many, many Americans. Senator Sinema was censured by the Arizona Democratic Party`s executive board.

Transcript

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.

And thank you for reporting on the delivery of the free COVID-19 tests to everyone in America. I did a little reporting work this weekend, stumbled upon an email where I clicked the link that took me to the federal government website to order those at home tests. And I was shocked at how easy it was to order them.

It`s the easiest thing I`ve done with a computer in as long as I can remember. And I thought, well no, there`s got to be several more pages of things. No, that was. It name, address, click. And they`re on their way.

You know, I haven`t reported on that because I didn`t know that, you just taught us that we are allowed to report on things that the government does well. That is something -- because I know, if it wasn`t working, and if the launch of the system -- which, by the, way we must note, the federal government has never end its history ever attempted to do this, the post office has never attempted to do this, everyone involved is doing something that hasn`t been done before in human history, and it is apparently working shockingly well.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: It`s true. So, therefore it`s not a story, right?

O`DONNELL: It can`t be. It can`t be! That`s why I was confused when I saw you covering it and I thought, wait, but it`s not a complete disaster, and the website isn`t crashing every ten minutes and -- what`s to report?

MADDOW: I mean, the speed at which they announced it and we`re rolling it out, and the speech seemed impossible. Then they launched it, it had some minor glitches that they seem to work out kind of in the first day, and now it`s working and people are getting their tests. And everyone is saying, oh yeah we`ve always had that.

Of course, oh yeah, the federal government free test distribution, of course. We`ve had that since Thursday. I mean, it is a new, practical, administration initiative that is working which is worth noting because it`s going to make a big difference in people`s lives.

O`DONNELL: The question that I have sort of imprinted in my brain and covering anything is always compared to what? Because that will give me the perspective. If we say, you know, this is going well, or this is going very, very badly. You say, compared to what?

And if it`s something that has never been attempted before in human history, I`m very forgiving about how many mistakes you`re allowed to make. In my view before you get a right. This is really astonishing to watch.

MADDOW: It`s also, as you put it, as you described, in absolute terms, a very slick system. I do everything online. I do lots of online shopping. I mean, I do a lot of online government stuff. It`s the first of the year.

So a lot of places you need to get a new fishing license, so I`ve gone through the fishing -- it`s all government websites are terrible. Almost all the e-commerce websites are terrible. This is one of the few that is very simple and works immediately and it`s, like, they ought to get some credit.

O`DONNELL: I, of course, will be giving my tests away because my benevolent employer provides free testing whenever I need it, and just on a routine basis. At first I thought, I won`t get them because I don`t need them. And then I said, I want to do, it I want to see how it works, and then give it to people that I know who desperately need it.

MADDOW: You should set up a website where people can apply to you for it.

O`DONNELL: I`ve only got four. I won`t need a website.

(LAUGHTER)

MADDOW: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel. Well, Donald Trump`s friend and mad men, Alex Jones, told his online audience today that he testified to the January six committee yesterday and that he took the Fifth Amendments, quote, nearly 100 times. Alex Jones also told his audience that he did know the answer to half of the questions, for which he took the Fifth Amendment.

That means, there were about 50 questions where Alex Jones did know the answer but he took the Fifth Amendment because he believed his answer could lead to him being charged with crimes. Alex Jones also told his audience that he took the Fifth Amendment because he was afraid of being charged with perjury if he answered a question under oath.

[22:0:09]

Alex Jones said that the January six committee already has, quote, everything that`s already on my phones and things. They have everything.

Donald Trump actually befriended Alex Jones after, after Alex Jones repeatedly told the despicable lie that the mass murder of kindergarten students and first graders along with teachers and staff at Sandy Hook Elementary School did not happen. Alex Jones claimed it was all fake, all staged.

Parents of the victims of that mass murder successfully sued Alex Jones for that defamation. Alex Jones lawyer say they will appeal that verdict. Attorney John Eastman who wrote a memo for Donald Trump telling the lie that Vice President Mike Pence could block the congressional certification of Joe Biden`s electoral college victory also claimed a Fifth Amendment protection from the committee`s January six committee subpoena. John Eastman invoked his Fifth Amendment rights to refuse to answer 146 written questions from the committee.

The committee has issued a subpoena to Chapman University to obtain John Eastman`s emails from their server, a federal judge is considering easements attempt to block that subpoena on the grounds of attorney-client privilege.

Today, Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco said the Justice Department is investigating attempts to replace Biden electors with Trump electors in states won by Joe Biden. The Trump electors would then have changed the outcome of the Electoral College. The January six committee is in position now of hundreds of documents from the Trump administration that had been turned over to the committee since the Supreme Court crushed Donald Trump`s attempt to block the delivery of those documents.

And among those documents include certificates that contain these signatures of Trump supporters who falsely claimed to be the rightful legally lawful electors in Georgia, Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Nevada and New Mexico, all states that President Joe Biden won.

Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco said this about those elector certifications. Our prosecutors are looking at those and I can`t say anything more on ongoing investigations. But more broadly, look, the attorney general has been very, very clear. We are going to follow the facts in the law wherever they lead to address conduct of any kind and at any level. That is part of an assault on our democracy.

It has now been 42 days since the House of Representatives sent a criminal referral of White House -- former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows to the Justice Department recommending that Meadows be charged with contempt of Congress. The Justice Department charged Steve Bannon with contempt of Congress 22 days after the House made that criminal referral to the Justice Department.

Today, Elmer Stewart Rhodes, and nine alleged coconspirators with the group that falsely calls themselves Oath Keepers, pleaded not guilty to seditious conspiracy. Judge Amit Mehta set a July 11 trial date for the group with a possible backup trial date of September 26, a free trial motions require more time.

Leading off our discussion tonight is Daniel Goldman, who served as the House Impeachment inquiry council for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. He`s also former assistant U.S. attorney for the southern district of New York and an MSNBC legal contributor.

Also with us, Claire McCaskill, former Democratic senator from Missouri and an MSNBC political analyst.

Claire, I want to begin with when we heard from the deputy attorney general today because you have been demanding from this Justice Department some understanding, some acknowledgment of what they are investigating and she said very clearly that our prosecutors are looking at those, those -- meaning those false fraudulent electoral certificates.

When you put that together with what we heard Attorney General Garland say in his speech generally about this, before January 6th, what is your take now on where the Justice Department is and what they are pursuing?

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it`s very hard to say how seriously they are pursuing all of this. Obviously, this was good news today that there was an acknowledgment that there was facts that existed, that showed people were trying to falsely claim that they were electors in order to overturn a free and fair election in the United States of America.

[22:10:15]

But I go back, Lawrence, to what I`ve been complaining about. You know, these criminal referrals on Bannon and on Mark Meadows, they are -- I mean, Daniel has been a fed, I was a state prosecutor, maybe he can explain to me what investigation needs to be done. This is just a matter of making a decision, are they going to go -- it`s not like they have to uncover a bunch of documentary evidence or a bunch of facts or interview a bunch of witnesses.

Make up your mind and tell the country whether or not Mark Meadows is going to be held accountable for refusing to cooperate with Congress.

O`DONNELL: Daniel Goldman, the Justice Department in the past has acted on criminal referrals from Congress like this in a matter of days, like eight days a week. Steve Bannon was about 22 days.

What can possibly be going on with the Mark Meadows referral?

DANIEL GOLDMAN, MSNBC LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: So I play devils advocate here and I think that they`re a couple things that might be going on. First of all, there was some cooperation by Meadows. We know that he turned over 9000 text messages or something along those lines.

Second, he does have, or at least there was, potential for executive privilege claims that Steve Bannon just did not have. So he is in a slightly different footing. I think legally that`s irrelevant because the best case that the Department of Justice can bring is that he simply didn`t show up to his deposition. He could`ve shown up and claimed executive privilege, but he can`t just not show up.

But I do think it`s important to understand how these things work. Which is, that the DOJ will have to analyze every single communication between the committee and Meadows and Meadows`s attorneys, and Meadows attorneys will make a presentation to the department as to why he should not be charged.

So, it`s unclear how much communication there was and whether that gives the DOJ pause, it`s unclear whether that presentation was to be given, so there are some variables here, but it`s certainly getting along in the tooth for them to pull the trigger.

O`DONNELL: And, Senator McCaskill, Alex Jones showed him how you do it. You show up, that`s what you do when you are subpoenaed. You show up. Alex Jones takes the Fifth Amendment to at least half of the questions he`s asked.

MCCASKILL: Yeah, I think it`s important to remember, Lawrence, that taking the Fifth Amendment is not always so straightforward. What has happened is they were all hiding behind this phony claim of executive privilege.

There are very few people that have the right to claim executive privilege. Most of the people who are saying those two words had no right to them. And some of them who thought they had the right to them, the Supreme Court said, no, you don`t, turn over the documents.

So, now, all they have left is the Fifth Amendment. But that doesn`t usually apply to producing documents. So Alex Jones realized, when he was there talking to the committee, how much voluminous evidence they have gathered. And that is going to be justice`s best friend going forward. That there are text messages, emails, documents, that will be the roadmap for this committee to hopefully begin public hearings sooner rather than later and inform and educate the American people exactly what was going on in the Oval Office. As the former president over turn -- try to overturn the election.

O`DONNELL: Let`s turn to the investigation in Georgia, which maybe the investigation with the most direct criminal liability for Donald Trump or he`s on a recording asking for votes to be created, in that election. "The Atlanta Journal-Constitution" is reporting that the District Attorney Fani Willis team is also examining the abrupt resignation of former Atlanta- based U.S. attorney BJay Pak, a November 2020 call from Senator Lindsey Graham to Brad Raffensperger, we knew that already, and the false claims made by Rudy Giuliani during a hearing in front of the Georgia Senate -- and there`s a particular Georgia state law about false statements made in those governing settings.

Daniel Goldman, let`s go to that point about the sudden resignation of the U.S. attorney which mystified all of us at the time, seemed extremely suspicious at the time, what would a local prosecutor be looking for in that resignation?

[22:15:05]

GOLDMAN: Well, they would all understand the pressure campaign that clearly was exacted against him. That forced him to resign. When you resigned that abruptly, you`re doing it in protest. And so, clearly, there was something that was asked of him that he refused to do and rather than execute whatever order or request was made, he decided to resign.

We don`t know much detail because even though he testified he did not reveal a tremendous detail what was asked of him, but clearly it was something related to -- what we do know is that it was related to overturning this Georgia electoral count.

And, Lawrence, you make the point, and I can`t underscore it enough, this District Attorney Fani Willis in Fulton County has in front of her what appears to be the tightest and best case of Donald Trump and those around him liability, criminal liability. You have a recording which is incredibly damning evidence.

You have a host of other phone calls from Trump and those close to him to senior officials and Georgia to overturn the election. You then pair that with the Jeffrey Clark stuff where Jeffrey Clark drafted a letter to the Georgia legislature I believe telling them that they need to an certify the electoral count, and the list goes on. I mean, there is Lindsey Graham as you pointed out, there`s BJay Pak.

And then you`ve got a lot of evidence, and it corroborates the very devastating recording. So I think that Georgia is the place that those interested in criminal prosecution of Donald Trump should be focused on.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, Senator McCaskill, that`s what I`ve been focused on from the start, I just thought, okay this is a smoking as a gun gets. And we don`t know what the grand jury and the prosecutors in Manhattan have found about Donald Trump, but we do know what`s the hottest piece of evidence is in the Georgia case and we had a former local district attorney from the neighboring county whose friends with Fani Willis on this program the other night reminding us that Fani Willis is a expert on RICO. She actually made her name on RICO cases in that county, and she suspects that Willis is developing a possible recall case against Donald Trump and others involving much more than just that one phone call.

MCCASKILL: Well, it looks to me that she`s building a conspiracy case. And they`re a couple of Georgia statutes that would apply, conspiracy to impact an election overturn an election, change an election, and all of this would go towards this conspiracy. All of this evidence would be admissible and a conspiracy charge. And the tricky part about this, this grandeur that has been called, they can`t indict, but they can in fact subpoena.

And I think they have to get Raffensperger on the record again saying, everything Donald Trump was alleging was not true.

O`DONNELL: Former Senator Claire McCaskill and Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for starting with our conversations tonight.

GOLDMAN: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

MCCASKILL: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Newt Gingrich and Donald Trump have so much in common, they have the same number of wives, and now, Newt Gingrich is adding members of Congress from the January six committee to the long Trump list of people who should be thrown in jail. Jonathan Chait has just written the definitive article about Newt Gingrich for "New York Magazine" and he will join us next to show how Newt Gingrich, the most radical Republican leader of the 20th century, paved the way for Donald Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:22:19]

O`DONNELL: Gingrich seems to be very worried about the January six investigation, so wary that he suggested that the members of the committee should end up in jail. Here`s something that might explain Newt Gingrich`s fear of the January six committee. Today, "Business Insider" notes that Newt Gingrich launched his attack on the committee this weekend, quote, about two weeks after the panel subpoenaed his longtime former aide who also coauthored a book with him.

On January 10th, the committee subpoenaed Ross Worthington who the committee said worked on a draft a speech that Donald Trump told his followers to go to the Capitol and fight like hell. Ross Worthington worked for Newt Gingrich before joining the Trump White House. He coauthored a book with Gingrich in 2012 after serving in Newt Gingrich`s losing presidential campaign.

Here`s what Newt Gingrich said about the committee this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH (R-GA), FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I think when you have a Republican congress, this is all going to come crashing down, and the wolves are going to find out that they are now sheep, and they are the ones who in fact are, I think, face a real risk of jail for the kind of laws they are breaking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: In a tweet, vice chair of the January six committee, Liz Cheney, said this, a former speaker of the House is threatening jail time for members of Congress who are investigating the violent January 6th attack on our Capitol and our Constitution. This is what it looks like when the rule of law unravels.

Joining us now is Jonathan Chait, writer for "New York Magazine". His new article is entitled, "Newt Gingrich invented Donald Trump`s lock-them-up politics: How one man was the bridge from Reaganism to Trumpism".

Jonathan, thank you very much for joining us tonight and thank you for guiding me back to through that memory lane, from Newt Gingrich`s start in the House and where we are with him today.

One of the striking things about Gingrich prior to now, prior to the last two years or so, is how long he was accepted among, say, the Sunday morning shows as a Republican in good standing, who had important things to share with the nation about the way he saw governing in America.

JONATHAN CHAIT, WRITER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: That`s right. He`s always had a knack for presenting himself as a high minded idealist. But really, the main reason he was able to take control of the Republican Party, in the 1990s, was because he went to Republicans and said, you guys are too nice.

[22:25:04]

You`ve got to get rough. You`ve got to get tough, you`ve got to be as vicious as the Democrats are. You have to destroy them. You have to practice politics in a completely different way.

That was how he toppled the Republican leadership in 1990. And that was the spare it brought to the, quote, unquote, Republican revolution in the 1990s. The way that they fought with against the Clinton administration reflected the spirit. They really saw Bill Clinton as being totally illegitimate. They were checked out of government and they would impeach him because they didn`t think he had any right to stand in the way of their policies in spite of the fact that he had been elected president of the United States.

So, I think, you know, if you want to go back and look at the Republican Party`s historical evolution into its current phase, where Donald Trump is the leader of the party, Gingrich is really an important figure to study. That`s what I tried to do.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, and his rhetoric was a version of Trump before Trump and his recklessness, his lying accusations when he was a junior member of the House going to the house floor at night when the C-Span camera was on to accuse Democrats of being sympathizers with communism, Tip O`Neill then ordered the C-Span camera to pan the House, to show that Gingrich was speaking to an empty chamber.

But, because of C-Span, he was speaking to people out there who are beginning to form what is now the Trump cult.

CHAIT: Yeah, and I think he was also pioneering in understanding that they want to go around the mainstream media and speak through conservative media that would simply amplify their claim, that wind subject and to any traditional journalistic scrutiny. So, in the 90s, that medium was talk radio, Fox News wasn`t invented until 1996, that eventually supplanted it. But he really was a bridge figure to Trump and he was an important figure in getting the party to embrace Trump.

Of course, when Trump first ran for president in 2016, most Republican elites were disgusted by him and said we would never accept him. And Gingrich was one of the first people, as I know, he`s really got something to say, we should listen to this guy. So he knew in which direction the party was head again.

O`DONNELL: And prove thereby that Mute Gingrich never believed in any principles of governing whatsoever, none of the policy positions he claimed he believed and when he was in office himself since Trump violated so many laws.

Jonathan Chait -- sorry, we have to go. But I want to make sure everyone reads your piece in New York magazine. It is not too long and you will learn everything you need to know about Newt Gingrich, and you`ll see that nothing he said this weekend is surprising.

Jonathan Chait, thank you very much for joining us.

CHAIT: Thank you.

And coming up, Kurt Andersen will join us to discuss his shocking article in "The Atlantic". It`s a scholarly analysis of the history of human sacrifice. It carries the title, "The Anti-Vaccine Right Brought Human Sacrifice to America". Stuart Stevens will join the discussion and join his expertise as a former Republican strategist about why Republican leaders are willing to watch their voters die.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:32:35]

O`DONNELL: Today, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. once again issued a public apology for comparing public health vaccine protocols to Hitler`s murder of 6 million Jewish people during the Holocaust. Mr. Kennedy issued a similar apology that he obviously did not mean in 2015.

The proof that he does not mean these apologies is that he has kept invoking Nazism in the Holocaust in his moneymaking crusade against vaccines which began long before the coronavirus pandemic.

Bobby Kennedy Jr. did not earn public attention, he inherited it. And he shamelessly trades on his assassinated father`s name to this day. He actually dragged his father into the statement this weekend that he is now insincerely apologizing for.

At an anti vaccine rally in Washington, Robert Kennedy Jr. said, "Even in Hitler Germany, you could cross the Alps into Switzerland. You could hide in an attic, like Anne Frank did. I visited in 1962, East Germany with my father and met people who had climbed the wall and escaped.

Bobby Kennedy Jr. was eight years old on that trip and apparently he did not learn then that Anne Frank was not hiding in an attic in Hitler`s Germany. Anne Frank hid in an attic with her family in Amsterdam before the Nazis captured them and sent them to the death camps where Anne Frank died.

Bobby Kennedy told his audience that Anne Frank hiding in the attic had more freedom than they do now. He said that to a group of people who traveled to Washington, some by plane without ever having to show proof of vaccination or a recent COVID test. Robert Kennedy Jr. has not apologize for the thousands of people who are dead tonight because they made the mistake of believing him, or others who deliver the same deadly anti- vaccination message.

[22:34:47]

O`DONNELL: Revolutionary War General John Stark of New Hampshire once said, "Live free or die". In 1945, the Republican-controlled government of New Hampshire made that the state`s motto. In 1971, the Republican-controlled government of New Hampshire put that on every license plate in the state including the license plates on the cars of people who knew that the phrase was absurd on its face.

"Live free or die" means that everyone, in every prison, including Nelson Mandela at the time, should immediately commit suicide. But brave sounding phrases that people don`t actually live by have long been the staple of American politics, especially Republican politics.

In an important new piece in "The Atlantic", Kurt Andersen adjusts the New Hampshire motto to describe the current Republican Party as the "Live free and die GOP". The article is titled, "The anti-vaccine right brought human sacrifice to America".

Since the introduction of COVID-19 vaccines, Kurt Andersen says, quote, "The right`s ongoing propaganda campaign against and organized political resistance to vaccination, among other public health protocols, has been killing many, many Americans.

In other words, what we`ve experienced, certainly since the middle of 2021 is literally ritual human sacrifice on a mass scale. Millions of Americans have been persuaded by the right to promote death and potentially to sacrifice themselves and others, ostensibly for the sake of personal liberty."

Joining our discussion now, Kurt Andersen, contributor to "The Atlantic" and "New York Times" bestselling author. His latest book is "Evil Geniuses: the unmaking of America".

Also with us, Stuart Stevens. He`s a veteran of Republican presidential campaigns. He`s the author of, "It was all a lie: how the Republican Party became Donald Trump".

Kurt, your piece, which is just an astonishing survey of the history of this kind of mass deaths and death cults makes the point that there are -- there are actually people out there saying that death is better. Death is better than having to deal with masks or vaccines, public health protocols.

KURT ANDERSON, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE ATLANTIC": Yes. For instance, there is an extraordinary piece in the right-wing magazine, "The Federalist", published last fall written by its executive editor, which is right around the time I was beginning to look at this. When I decided, oh I`ve made a joke here or there in the past about you know, ritual sacrifice and Trumpism being a cult. But I started thinking, wait, is this just a figure of speech? Is this just rhetoric? And I started studying the history and anthropology.

Anyhow, one thing you find as you look at where this takes place is it`s in places where the state governance and kind of highly supernatural religion are completely intertwined.

So this "Federalist" magazine piece was literally, "Why you should die, Christians. It`s a good thing to die. You can`t extend your life an extra second by quarantining or wearing masks or getting vaccinated, or anything else."

It was an extraordinary piece sort of saying just in absolute blunt terms this idea that, for the good of Christ and freedom, you should not take any measures to reduce your chances of dying.

But there are so many ways -- as I look through the history and anthropology, I was just stunned to find that all of the main features of this, and societies around the world, because it`s mass sacrifice has been carried on by the elite, political and social elites, for thousands of years.

And the main features again and again and again have absolute parallels in what`s going on in the United States the last year. And I distinguish between the early days when it was figures of speech, when who knew what would happen to the economy and the last year when vaccines can save lives, clearly, absolutely, and amazingly.

And yet, the political orthodoxy on the Republican side and in their media complex has continued to disparage and undermine and spread lies about vaccines.

To what end? Well, according to the anthropologists, the end is social control. It increases political power of those who can effectively order their citizens or subjects, to die -- to voluntarily die.

And that`s the other thing. Many historically, over thousands of years, even as recently as a couple of hundreds of years ago where human sacrifice was still going on in an obvious way, people often volunteer. But of course, volunteering is sometimes blurry. Whether it`s involuntary or not.

[22:40:01]

O`DONNELL: Stuart Stevens, Kurt documents that just during the period of the vaccines` availability, we have 163,000 that`s through November -- 163,000 unnecessary deaths that could`ve been prevented by the vaccine.

Donald Trump apparently, might be the only Republican politician who`s counting these and thinking, well, you know, we can`t afford to lose 10,000 in one of these swing states. And he`s the only one on the Republican side who`s willing to in some ways say, I have taken the vaccine and the booster.

STUART STEVENS, FORMER REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I think this is one of these rare cases where Trump`s ego and the common good coincide. He is for the vaccine because he sees it as a Trump vaccine, so therefore the Trump vaccine must be great in the same way, you know, Trump properties are great.

That`s good, it`s better than him being against it. But all of this started inside the Trump White House. This whole politization of a disease started inside this sort of palace of lies that has become the heart of the Republican propaganda machine.

There`s a direct line between saying that vaccines are dangerous to kill more people than COVID to believing that Donald Trump won the election. It`s an alternative universe that you have to live in. And sort of the ultimate field key test of that would be willing to die for it.

And I think -- I hope everybody reads Kurt`s piece, I think it`s brilliant. And it really points to a sort of insanity that is inside this room, that is growing inside the Republican Party, that is sort of a normalization of what at any face value you step back from it and just say, this is just nuts.

O`DONNELL: The article is in "The Atlantic". Everyone should be reading it. Kurt Andersen, Stuart Stevens, thank you so much for joining us.

ANDERSEN: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

And coming up, we will be joined in her first appearance on this program by a former Arizona political activist turned Democratic-elected official. No, not Kyrsten Sinema. She is still refusing our open invitation to appear on this program just as she continues to refuse to appear on any television program to explain her otherwise inexplicable positions on the issues to voters.

Fortunately, Gabriella Cazares-Kelly has a more open view of public accountability, and she will join us, next.

[22:42:37]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: "Punchbowl News" reports that four term Congressman Reuben of Arizona was in New York this weekend where he met with some of Senator Sinema`s New York donors about a Democratic primary challenge in 2024 when Senator Sinema is up for reelection. Political pressure has been building against Senator Sinema since she voted against changing a senate rule just one time to allow a vote on voting rights legislation.

Senator Sinema was censured by the Arizona Democratic Party`s executive board. Senator Bernie Sanders said he`s open to supporting a primary challenge to Senator Sinema. Emily`s List, one of Senator Sinema`s top donors in 2018, has cut off funding to the Sinema campaign, as has the abortion rights group NARAL. And Voto Latino has committed to spending six figures in what they`re calling their "Adios Sinema 2024" campaign.

Our next guest, like Kyrsten Sinema, was an activist in Arizona Democratic politics before being elected to office herself. In September of 2019, Gabriella Cazares-Kelly discovered that the County Recorders Office in her county, Pima County, Arizona maintains voter registration records.

In 2020, Gabriella Cazares-Kelly ran for the office herself and won. She recently told Ezra Klein, in a "New York Times" article, "One thing I was really struck by when I first started getting involved in politics is how much power there is in just showing up to things. If you want to get involved, there`s always a way."

And joining us now, in her first appearance on this program as Pima County, Arizona Recorder, Gabriella Cazares-Kelly. She is the first Native American elected to a Pima Countywide seat.

Thank you very much for joining us tonight. I know we have booked you in the past and had to delay it because of other breaking news situations. I am glad to finally have you here.

We discovered you in Ezra Klein`s reporting, where he was showing examples of people who were just taking charge of the politics that they saw around them in their own lives. Tell us about the decision you made about running for office.

GABRIELLA CAZARES-KELLY, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA RECORDER: Well, thanks for having me. I didn`t ever expect to run for office. It was -- I really started this entire endeavor simply by registering voters at a local tribal community college where I worked as an academic adviser. And I started running into so many systemic issues that were keeping students from simply getting registered to vote.

And so I started calling the Pima County Recorder`s Office. I started visiting their Web site and offering suggestions on ways to make it more accessible. And that was kind of on deaf ears.

And so when I heard that the previous recorder was retiring, I thought, I have to at least try.

[22:49:59]

O`DONNELL: And what can you tell us in how things have changed since you have taken the office?

CAZARES-KELLY: Well, one of the -- one of the biggest things I have been able to do was reopen a Pascua Yaqui early voting site which was an early voting site on Pascua Yaqui reservation that the previous record had closed.

I think it`s really important to know that this community struggles with Internet infrastructure, with transportation infrastructure. Many homes don`t own a family vehicles and so an early voting site in this location was really, really important. And I was able to restore that.

Currently, right now in the county we are looking at implementing vote centers where instead of people being assigned to only one location, they can go to any location anywhere throughout the county which would reduce the number of provisional ballots and help more people`s votes count.

O`DONNELL: How would you characterize the tension in the Democratic Party in Arizona now over what is happening with Senator Sinema?

CAZARES-KELLY: I don`t know that there is a lot of tension. I think that would have been a nice description a couple of years ago. There was a lot of conflict as to whether or not we should censor her or not. And right now I feel like every single Democrat is on board with what just happened.

It was an extreme failure on Kyrsten Sinema`s part and it really put Arizonans in particular in risk of losing some of our voting rights.

O`DONNELL: How did it feel for you personally, as someone who has been working in Democratic politics?

CAZARES-KELLY: I was very glad that the rest of the Democratic Party has stopped making excuses for this person and is talking about actual consequences and thinking about people who are going to move the party forward as opposed to keeping them from being able to making progress. So I was very pleased.

I`m very -- I think this is a minimum. I think this is the bare minimum of what we could be doing. And I want to -- I want to see more progressive action take place.

O`DONNELL: Gabriella Cazares-Kelly, thank you very much for joining us for the first time and hope you will come back. Really appreciate it.

CAZARES-KELLY: Thank you so much for having me.

O`DONNELL: Thank you. Tonight`s LAST WORD is next.

[22:52:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Many of you are watching recently when Cher called into the show to lend her support to our partnership with UNICEF to provide desks for schools in Malawi and scholarships for girls to attend high school in Malawi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Cher, thank you once again for your kind words about what the audience of this show does for those kids in Malawi.

CHERY, SINGER: Hey Lawrence, oh babe, I`m so proud of you and your audience. I couldn`t believe last night all the money that you`ve raised. I mean I`ve been watching for a long, long time. And I just didn`t realize that it was in the millions and millions and millions. It`s just -- I mean you took on a Herculean task and you rocked it.

O`DONNELL: Well, Cher, you know, you are the closer coming in for us tonight on this because we are really close to $33 million and I think you`re going push us over the top.

Thank you for bringing it to the attention of your billions of fans out there. One of whom I think you know, is the 9:00 p.m. host here at MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, who I normally think of as the Cher of cable news.

And she left a message for you at the beginning of this hour. She told me, she gave me this order, to tell you, please tell you, and these are her exact words, "Hello and I love you". That`s from Rachel Maddow.

CHER: Well, you know what, I don`t drink but I would have a cocktail with her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: They`re going to have a cocktail. Rose tweeted, "I just made a donation to the KIND Fund for desks while you were talking to Cher on the phone, but clicked past the place where you put who you are donating in honor of too quickly. I`m doing it for my kids who are lucky enough not to worry if they`d have desks to sit at."

Cher did push us over that $33 million threshold. And so, in the 11 years since we began telling you about kids in need of desks on this program, you have now contributed a total of $33,138,787 -- an average of over $3 million a year.

We still have a long way to go, most students in Malawi still don`t have desks in their classrooms and most kids still cannot afford to attend high school. Please remember that although I usually only mentioned the KIND Fund during the holiday season, you can make a donation to the KIND Fund at anytime at lastworddesk.msnbc.com and you can do it in the name of anyone on your gift list for birthdays or Valentine`s Day and UNICEF will send them an acknowledgment of your gift.

I can never find the words to thank you enough and it`s always better when you hear the kids at their new desks thank you themselves.

Some happy students get tonight`s LAST WORD.

"THE 11TH HOUR" starts now.

[22:59:59]

MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. I`m Mehdi Hasan. Day 371 of the Biden administration.