Summary
Former Trump fixer and attorney Michael Cohen discusses the presidential race. Actor Jeff Garlin speaks out. What do the states President Trump is visiting say about the state of the presidential campaign? Is Rudy Giuliani being used in a Russian disinformation campaign against Joe Biden?
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.
Happy Friday, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Happy Friday, Nicolle.
I have a very brief trick question for you on this happy Friday.
If you had to guess who's on THE BEAT tonight...
WALLACE: Are you going to finally ask me about rap?
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: No, I wouldn't do that to you, unless you want to talk about rap.
WALLACE: Is it the Republican in me?
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: No, there's all kinds of -- there's all kinds of love in hip-hop.
In fact, there's a famous song, since you brought it up, called "Black Republican" about diversity, political and otherwise.
But, no, I want to ask you, who do you think's on THE BEAT tonight? Trick question.
Former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen or Jeff Garlin from "Curb Your Enthusiasm"?
WALLACE: Oh, my God, Jeff Garlin is my favorite. He was in "The Goldbergs" and he wore like boxers. And I asked him if they were actual boxers once.
I'm really hoping it's both or Jeff.
MELBER: It's both, including Jeff. You got it.
(LAUGHTER)
WALLACE: Oh. I'm running upstairs to watch.
MELBER: Have a great weekend.
WALLACE: You too.
MELBER: Great. Yes, thank you, Nicolle.
Always good to chat with Nicolle Wallace was heading into a big weekend.
And I want to thank you for joining us on THE BEAT. We're going to get to those great guests.
But we begin with this, the surest sign tonight that Trump is on defense. I think we have it right here. Yes.
You are looking at Donald Trump spending precious time not in a swing purple state, not walking through a crowd on offense in a blue state like Wisconsin, which, politically, is what he was able to do this season last cycle.
No, the hats you see, the scene you see, the cheering, what you're looking at is Donald Trump in Georgia. And that right there, this scene relays much of what you actually need to know about the status of this race 18 days out, because while anything could change, the race shows Biden surging, Trump on his heels.
And here's the evidence. Republican nominees don't spend October in Georgia from a position of strength. This is a GOP stronghold. Reagan won his reelection there by 20. Points. Bush 41 carried it by the same margin in his election.
Years later, when his son ran in the same state for his reelection, he, of course, George W. Bush, you're going to see, had a 17-point margin.
So we know how popular incumbent Republicans roll. They carry Georgia easily.
Now I want to show you Trump. Trump, even as he struggled with religious voters last cycle -- we will put the numbers up -- won it handily by five points. So, come back to me, and I will tell you it like this.
This campaign, this Trump campaign, bottom line, not confident about this margin right now.
Now, it would be very hard for Trump to win this Electoral College without holding Georgia. That's why he's there today. And that's why I can tell you, we all know there's spin. We all know both campaigns say all kinds of things. Where they go and where they have to go is a sign.
You don't want to be this late, 18 days out, in a Republican incumbent presidency fighting to defend Georgia. That could be a fight for your life.
Now, there's other signs that are even more obvious. Politicians don't like to make a closing argument against their party's own president, unless they have to. But Republicans are increasingly, some of them, seeing that as a political necessity.
Loyal supporters and paid staff now saying Trump is toast. Fact-check, unknowable. You can't say whether a piece of bread is toast unless it comes out of the toaster. And, well, for most of the bread of this race, if you will, if you want to use this analogy, the bread are the ballots, and they have yet to be cast, most of them; 18 days is an eternity.
But we are seeing people peeling away from Trump and the Republican Party, which is a sign of where they think things, are at least today, 18 days out.
As for the substance and the policy, well, we have an especially unusual year, with pandemic voting, which changes how people turn out. We have a second debate that was nixed and the third and final debate next week.
Now, voters could still see things that motivate or depress turnout or that change their minds. Now, for all of Trump's bluster, he's making his closing argument on defense, not only on the map I mentioned, but also on the issues.
Now, would he have expected four years ago that this final argument from Donald Trump fighting for reelection to the White House would be him saying -- you're about to see it -- that he backs Obamacare-style protections more than Obama?
This is a policy contradiction he was just pressed on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": Your administration is about to go to the Supreme Court to argue to throw out the rest of Obamacare, which includes the protections for preexisting conditions.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's right. That's right.
GUTHRIE: So your administration is in court right now, trying to get rid of that protection.
TRUMP: In order to replace it with a much better health care.
GUTHRIE: You repealed, but you haven't replaced.
TRUMP: No, no.
GUTHRIE: Now, you've been in office almost four years.
TRUMP: We have done...
GUTHRIE: You have both houses of Congress, Senate and House, in Republican hands, and there is not a replacement yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Let's get right to it.
Michael is the former RNC chair. Michelle Goldberg is here from "The New York Times." And Blake Zeff is a writer who's also worked for Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and other officials.
Good to see all of you.
Michelle, I went through just some of the signs. But, in particular, that moment on Obamacare suggests he's not playing on his own turf.
MICHELLE GOLDBERG, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think that he's been extremely disingenuous about health care.
I mean, it's kind of amazing that you're -- he's basically in the last two weeks of his reelection saying, vote for me, and I will and I will reveal my health care plan, right? It just underlies the really astonishing lack of any sort of enumerated second term agenda at this point.
The other thing -- excuse me -- the thing that I thought that was really telling that has happened today is the revelation of this phone call that Ben Sasse, this constituent call that Ben Sasse made, senator from Nebraska, where he is basically saying all of these things about Trump that we all know to be true, that Republicans all know to be true, about his family using the presidency as a business, about him playing footsie with white supremacists, about his love affair with dictators, all these things that Republicans, I think, have been saying privately for close to four years now.
What was telling to me is that he now feels emboldened to say it semi-publicly.
MELBER: Yes, I think that's obviously part of what's happening. And you can look at it as true things being said out loud, or political things that are now useful, Blake, for Republicans to say.
And it's not just people running for office or in the Senate, where people are in different cycles, a majority of the Senate, by definition, not up in a race right now. But look at John Kelly, who's now putting word out, Blake, that, when you look at Donald Trump -- quote -- "The depths of dishonesty is astounding to me, the transactional nature of every relationship, though it's more pathetic than anything else. He's the most flawed person I have ever met in my life."
Blake, thank you, John Kelly, for coming around to this now?
BLAKE ZEFF, JOURNALIST: That's not a great reelection slogan?
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
ZEFF: ... bumper sticker, well, it's kind of says the president's very flawed.
So, no, I don't think that's very helpful from the president's former chief of staff. And, look, yes, we are seeing figures come out from the president's party trying to distance him. This is a very classic thing that happens in the final weeks of campaigns, when they look at their own reelection numbers and see, I might be in trouble because the guy at the top of the ticket is dragging me down.
MELBER: Yes.
Michael?
MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, absolutely.
These guys are perfecting the Heisman stance. Everyone has got that, yes, no, no, no, no, not Trump.
The reality is very simply this. And it's the math. And it's the states. And when they don't align for you, you wind up in Georgia two-and-a-half weeks out from a presidential election. And that's the reality. You wind up playing hard in Florida. You wind up going back to Michigan. You wind up hanging out in Arizona.
And so the reality for the president's campaign is -- and I have said this before, and, Ari, we have talked about it -- they're trying to reconcile two campaigns. One is the one that Trump is running, and that we see in these town hall meetings, events and the debates.
And the other is the one his campaign is actually trying to do, and if he could just stay on that script, you then maybe avoid some of the stuff that you see happening now. Maybe senators don't distance themselves as readily. Maybe your former chief of staff that doesn't basically call you a loser.
But the reality of it is, that's where we are. And so how do you make that up in 18 days? Where do you get the numbers from?
Now, there may be some secret sauce, but we don't know what it is yet. Voters are voting. They're making very clear by the fact that, what, over 17 million, 18 million, 19 million voters have voted so far. And that's only going to increase.
So, where do you go with your numbers when the states and the numbers don't align?
MELBER: Yes. And the states matter.
I mean, Blake, I'm observing this as a student of these campaigns. And you go back far enough, I worked for presidential. You have worked presidential campaigns. I was on record in '16, not that I knew it was going to happen. But when I saw they were sending Obama to Michigan on November 1, I said, not a great sign, because it means Michigan's in play.
There's a lot of states where Obama is popular you might rather have him. That was late in the game, a little clue. This is relatively earlier in the game, but what does it tell you, Blake, that they're in Georgia? That's not where Republican incumbent presidents want to be.
ZEFF: No, you're right. It says everything.
And to your point earlier, you're exactly right. Don't listen to the spin. You can just look at the map and it tells you everything. Look at the schedule.
The fact he's in Georgia, they don't want to be defending Georgia -- it's supposed to be a red state -- with two or three weeks to go. It's a terrible, terrible sign, because like your banner earlier said, it means he's on defense, not an offense.
You would ideally like to be able to have some reach states that you can pick off maybe from the other side to give you a cushion. He's trying to defend a state he has to win.
Now, one caveat to that, though, which is, one of the things we learned in 2016, to your point, is, you cannot take for granted the states that you're supposed to win. You have to hold on to those states. A good campaign, a winning campaign protects the states they are supposed to win.
So, for the Clinton campaign, there were some Midwestern states in there that they did not hold on to. So it makes sense to try to really hold on to the ones you're supposed to win. That being said, that's not what's happening here.
There are a number of states that Donald Trump is in trouble in that he won last time and that he needs to defend at all costs.
MELBER: And, Blake, while I have you, given 2016, we hear from a lot of folks any time you mentioned it, this ain't 2016, which is true. I mean, it's not. We're not in a time machine.
But that the underlying fundamentals are different. Given that that conversation is playing out, and we were reporting on air this week how the Biden folks have come back around to try to tamp down what they view as potentially the kind of overconfidence that could hurt turnout -- they just want the maximum number of turnout they can get -- where do you come down, having lived it and worked for Hillary Clinton on what is and isn't the lessons of '16 this year?
ZEFF: Well, I would say, look, the classic thing you do in any race is, you never want your supporters to be complacent.
You don't want them seen -- it would be terrible right now for the Biden campaign for -- if people saw a huge poll victories, and they will think, oh, we're up by a lot, and then their voters don't come out to vote. So you want to always emphasize -- and, in fact, you see -- you saw this week the Biden campaign manager actually tweeted that, we think this race is very close, don't take anything for granted.
And that is absolutely the lesson for every race, but particularly now, because you know that there's going to be a lot of states that are contested. There is a whole judicial plan that both campaigns likely have in place for post-November 3, for the counting and tabulation.
So, if you're the Biden team, you want to make sure that margin is as high as possible, so that it simply cannot be contested in the way it was in 2000.
MELBER: Michelle?
GOLDBERG: Well, look, I also have a lot of PTSD from 2016 and am somewhat uneasy having conversations about how Trump is so far down in the polls, and all these states, like Arizona, are in play. People were having those conversations in 2016.
There were people rushing to distance themselves from Trump in 2016, although they glommed right back onto him after they won. So I understand why people are scared. I'm scared too.
But some things that I think are really, really different are, A, the number of people that are already voting, the much smaller number of people that say they're undecided. So, there's simply fewer people that Trump kind of has the possibility of winning over.
But then, finally, of all the things that I'm worried about, and there's a long, long, long list, the one thing I'm not worried about is Democratic complacency, because I'm not the only one who is scarred for life by what happened four years ago, right?
You're just not going to get Democrats saying, oh, look at the polls, we have got this in the bag, right? I mean, that is just kind of psychologically inconceivable.
And you see in the long lines, you see in the really robust early voting and absentee voting rates, I think the one thing Democrats do not have to worry about is taking this thing for granted.
MELBER: Interesting.
I want to thank Michelle Goldberg and Blake Zeff on that.
And Michael stays with us, because we're turning to another vital issue for voters, which is facts vs. lies and propaganda.
Now, this could be dangerous. And I want to give you the context before we fact-check Donald Trump. He has been fanning conspiracy theories, like QAnon, which can hurt people in the real world offline, just as past propaganda against his opponents has led to real violence, a gunman opening fire to D.C. pizza shop in 2016, or, of course, just this month, when feds thwarted this political plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor.
Now, as Trump pushes propaganda and defends the man indicted for two murders recently in Wisconsin, other candidates are also mainlining this in the Republican Party.
We talked about Trump campaign today in a state, Georgia. That is the same state where the Republican congressional nominee publicly backs QAnon even more directly than Trump, stating she's fighting a -- quote -- "global cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles."
Trump endorsing her as a rising star. There's also racism in there.
Now, this is real. This is not random fringe talk, which a politician can say, look, they don't know everything anyone ever said who's a supporter?
As I just showed you, they know about this. They're embracing it and benefiting from it.
Now, given Michael Steele's knowledge of the Republican Party's evolution, I want to bring you back in here to get your views on two key moments, first this on the QAnon conspiracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUTHRIE: Let me ask you about QAnon. It is this theory that Democrats are a Satanic pedophile ring and that you are the savior of that.
Now, can you just, once and for all, state that that is completely not true, and...
TRUMP: So, I know...
(CROSSTALK)
GUTHRIE: ... disavow QAnon...
TRUMP: Yes.
GUTHRIE: ... in its entirety?
TRUMP: I know nothing about QAnon.
GUTHRIE: I just told you.
TRUMP: I just don't know about QAnon.
GUTHRIE: You do know.
TRUMP: I don't know. No, I don't know. I don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, as was said to his face, he knows. We showed the violence around the country.
What is your view of this? And is this something that should be inbounds, that voters consider over whether to hand this man another four years?
STEELE: Absolutely, it should be inbounds, because, remember, this is the same man who told us he didn't know who David Duke was, OK?
So, for me, yes, this is inbounds. We know you knew who David Duke was. You're a man in his 70s running for president of the United States. You didn't know who David Duke was, who was a candidate for the United States Senate? Come on. Stop lying.
Oh, QAnon, you don't know what QAnon is? You mean to tell me no one in the White House has briefed you about this organization and what they're doing? No one? Stop lying, all right?
MELBER: Stop lying, yes.
STEELE: So, yes, the American people should bake this in. They should understand exactly, when the president is confronted with the truth of what's out there and what these groups are doing, and the truth of what it means to them, and his response is, well, I don't know, whenever the president -- whenever Donald Trump tells you he doesn't know something, you damn skippy he knows all about it.
MELBER: Yes, Donald Trump -- I appreciate the way you put it so clearly, Michael.
Donald Trump's "I don't know" is the same thing in court or in congressional hearings when you get the "I don't recall." And it's a tell.
STEELE: Yes.
MELBER: And then it can be frustrating as content. But this isn't content. This is a choice. People can assess it and make up their own minds. We're showing the evidence.
But assess what you get when someone's lying about, as you put it, what they do know.
The other thing, which kind of bad news for Trump, not the most important thing in the world, I will stipulate, but he's famously obsessed with ratings, Michael.
STEELE: Yes.
MELBER: There are reports he wanted to go into this town hall last night with a plot to then say publicly they beat Biden.
Here are the numbers. Biden's town hall on ABC, a huge 14 million viewers, apples to apples on another network, which happens to be our sister at NBC, 11 million viewers, Biden winning by a lot in TV terms. And that's just network.
This was also simulcast on other cable channels. And even when you add that in, three channels to Biden's one, if you want to do a comparison, Michael, Trump's still losing badly. Your thoughts?
STEELE: Well, that -- them's the numbers. How do you talk yourself out of that?
I think the Biden numbers tell more than the Trump numbers in this regard. The Biden numbers are those voters who are now coming into Biden, and they want to understand a little bit more about him. They want to hear a little bit more from him. They want to get to the point where they feel comfortable in the choice that they're about to make.
And the Trump numbers just reflect, we already know this dude. We have listened and we have learned, and we have heard enough, and so we're done. I don't need -- I can watch it for the entertainment value of it. But, substantively, politically, there is no redeeming value to it for me.
So I get that. So I will tune in and check out the guy that everyone's telling me to look at. Check out the guy my grandmama is planning to vote for, or my cousin told me I should learn some more about. And I think that's why you see those numbers where they are.
And that's a good thing for Biden, because, as I tweeted out last night, Ari, if you weren't flipping back and forth between those two, you needed to. Why? Because you saw the contrast in both substance and style, but, most importantly, the demeanor and the character of a president and someone who wants to be president.
And that, I think, will go a long way to help the Biden narrative much more than it helps Trump.
MELBER: Very interesting.
I want to keep you around, if you will come back again to the show, so you can hang out with Jeff Garlin from "Curb Your Enthusiasm," all right?
STEELE: Sure. I'm looking forward to that, baby, absolutely.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: All right, and to end the week, we will get to that.
We're going to fit in right now our shortest break, 30 seconds.
A lot of news, with the feds investigating whether Giuliani was duped again by a foreign power, a top Republican warning of a blue tsunami.
But, when we're back in 30, Michael Cohen is back live on THE BEAT.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: We're tracking lots of news in the campaign homestretch of 18 days out.
And we turn now, back on THE BEAT, to Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's former lawyer, host of a new podcast, "Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen," and the author of the book "Disloyal."
Thanks for coming back, Michael.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY/FIXER FOR DONALD TRUMP: It's good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: Good to have you.
You have spoken out. People have read and heard some of what you had to say and your evolution. We were just discussing this top of show, but I haven't played it yet.
Republican Senator Ben Sasse, a conservative, a Republican, and someone who has been a part of a Trump coalition, as you once were, take a listen to what he's saying now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEN. BEN SASSE (R-NE): The way he kisses dictators' butts.
The United States now regularly sells out our allies under his leadership, the way he treats women. He mocks evangelicals behind closed doors. He's flirted with white supremacists.
I think we're staring down the barrel of a blue tsunami. I'm now looking at the plus possibility of a Republican bloodbath in the Senate.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, your analysis of that, the input of it coming before the election, and the big question that people ask me sometimes when I have had you and other guests on, why do so many people start out looking up to Donald Trump and end up being some of his most virulent, detailed, vociferous critics?
COHEN: Well, as I have said, many, many times, I talk about it in the book, and I talk about it constantly on "Mea Culpa," I was part of the poll.
I wasn't just part of the cult. I helped create the cult.
Ben Sasse is new to the cult. So he was far from indoctrinated to the extent that I was indoctrinated.
I mean, I helped to create this cult. Good for him for finally standing up. And I'd like to see more Republicans do it. Do I think it's a little too late, like watching Chris Christie doing the same thing, all of a sudden, taking a sidestep the way that he did and now attacking in some respects the president for various different things?
I mean, everybody is complicit, as I believe, and this is what I was told, that both Chris Christie and Rudy Giuliani were instrumental in instructing the president during the debate with Vice President Biden to interrupt him as often as possible, because Biden has an issue with stuttering, and that they have learned that, if you do that, and you interrupt somebody who has a stuttering issue, that you can really throw them off track, which is why Trump looked so foolish, and interrupted as often as he did.
MELBER: Well, let's get to each of them, starting with Chris Christie now.
You're saying you think what about his change of heart? Because he released this lengthy statement saying, time in the hospital gave him time to reflect.
And, as always, we wish everyone well. COVID is ravaging the world.
COHEN: Yes.
MELBER: But notwithstanding that, the man is a former governor and U.S. attorney and transition planner for the president.
He had time to reflect on Donald Trump's COVID leadership before this last week.
COHEN: Yes, that, he did. And, unfortunately, he didn't.
And, again, he helped to promote this nonsense of not wearing a mask, and he was very out front terms of not wearing the mask. He's responsible, as well as the president, for the bad advice.
Do I think that he is truly legitimate in his beliefs and what he's saying right now? Look, far be it for me to turn around and to question anybody's motives for why they're doing it. I don't believe that he's being honest with the American people.
I don't believe he's being honest with himself. Chris Christie is very similar to Trump, in that he will do anything that's expedient and benefits him when it comes to politics.
MELBER: One of the things we have learned over time is, we don't know, we cannot know exactly what is moving different people as the information gets out there.
And that's an interesting part of the news or democracy. But it has to make us a little bit humble.
We don't know whether the exposure of many aspects of Donald Trump's taxes, including being such a deadbeat, is affecting people or not. We know that he's done everything he can to hide it. He's doing everything he can to distract from it.
But here we are in October, where what we do know is, more people are watching. We do know more people are paying attention. We do know early voting is up. So we have some awareness that people civically are engaged.
And I want to play a moment for your analysis, Michael, from last night where I showed how many people have been watching things. And they see Donald Trump pressed on his taxes and his debt, which may be a national security issue. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I have a very, very small percentage of debt compared -- in fact, some of it, I did as favors to institutions that wanted to loan me money -- $400 million, compared to the assets that I have.
GUTHRIE: Are you confirming that, yes, you do owe some $400 million?
TRUMP: What I'm saying is that, it's a tiny percentage of my net worth.
I will let you know who I owe, whatever small amount of money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael?
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: Yes, it's a tiny percentage of his stated net worth.
Donald Trump is the first one to turn around and tell everybody: I'm really rich.
I mean, I have told you before already that I have watched him go from $5 billion to $7 billion, $7 billion to $8 billion, $8 billion. You know what, let's just make it a cool 10.
So, what his percentage of equity vs. debt is, nobody knows, because, again, that's where you need to the tax returns, you really do need, in order to determine whether he's worth a billion dollars, $3 billion or $10 billion.
Nobody knows. The truth is, Donald Trump himself doesn't know. That's the saddest part. He makes up numbers, just as he makes up statistics and fact.
MELBER: Yes.
COHEN: He's just a habitual liar.
MELBER: Well, I was going to say...
COHEN: And he will lie to himself, which makes him a really -- which makes it really problematic.
MELBER: Yes.
And a made-up fact is a lie. And lying to yourself is a different problem. But when you're president and when you're running a campaign, there's a fact-check. That's why we mentioned Georgia. He can say, I'm up everywhere. He can claim whatever he wants.
But the people booking the actual rallies are saying, well, we got to go to a red state, because you're not up the way you think you are.
Michael, will you stay with me? I want to get into this other big story. Will you stay with me for one more segment?
COHEN: Sure. Sure, Ari. My pleasure.
MELBER: Michael Cohen stays.
There's another big story with heat on Rudy Giuliani and a foreign influence campaign. We're going to get to that right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Developing news tonight on Donald Trump's infamous lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who has been tapped to help lead legal fights in the upcoming election, anything that comes after.
But now there's this, "The Washington Post" reporting aides warning Giuliani has already been targeted by Russian intelligence with misinformation.
The warning is important, in light of the so-called, but maybe not, October surprise, which really wasn't, Giuliani trying to push alleged e-mails relating not to even directly the candidate, but to a family member, Hunter Biden.
Trump supporters viewed this as the plot twist that they were hoping would play out like 2016, when WikiLeaks did release many e-mails that were later confirmed to be hacked by Russia that were tied to the Clinton campaign and her campaign manager, John Podesta.
Now, remember, that news was treated as a big bombshell. It at times overshadow those "Access Hollywood" tapes. Media outlets were reporting on it, and some didn't really give enough context, especially given what we learned later about the foreign operations.
"USA Today," for example, was just reporting how certain e-mails were the juiciest. "Fortune" was discussing Washington's hot new hobby of reading through them. Vox, a relatively serious policy outlet, dove into the e-mails to discuss Podesta's -- quote -- "secret for making creamy risotto."
At times, it was ridiculous. It certainly didn't age well.
But here's something that's really notable tonight and why I'm giving you the context. This supposed October surprise from Giuliani, it's not playing the same way. Within hours, outlets online like "Business Insider" noted, the story itself was riddled with holes and red flags.
TechCrunch, which deals with technology issues, said there was plenty of skepticism here. "New York Magazine" sarcastically dismissed this, like, totally, these weren't stolen by Russia, when, obviously, the joke being they were. Handle with care.
And that's not all.
Before I bring back Michael Cohen, I want to give you context about how the world is changing, partly because of positive factual pressure campaigns. Digital companies have huge power separate from those of us in traditional journalism. And they have been stepping up this week. They have been either flagging or minimizing the aspects of this story that either are not verified or appear to be false foreign propaganda.
What's different this time? I want you to know one thing. Government, investigators, independent prosecutors, so they worked on this a lot, remember? We have been warned by everyone from lawmakers to Mueller to even some inside the intelligence wing of the Trump administration.
Never forget, Bob Mueller emphasized one big thing that he wanted everyone to be crystal clear about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. WILL HURD (R-TX): Did you think that this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election? Or did you find evidence to suggest they will try to do this again?
ROBERT MUELLER, RUSSIA PROBE SPECIAL COUNSEL: No, it wasn't a single attempt. They're doing as we sit here, and they expect to do it during the next campaign?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Bob Mueller worked hard. He warned us. They are doing it in the next campaign.
And, Michael Cohen, you obviously are positioned interestingly within all of this.
I want to start, as promised, with Giuliani, and we can then widen out.
But do you think Rudy Giuliani is being used as a tool and a hack of the Russians, whether or not it passes a legal line? And do you think that's wrong?
COHEN: Well, of course it's wrong. And the answer is, yes, Rudy is being played by the Russians.
First of all, if he would -- he's 100 percent susceptible to being used by the Russians, because the information that they're providing to him, the disinformation, he runs right back to President Trump like a child running to a parent: Oh, look, what I have. Look what I have.
And let's not forget, I was in Trump's office when Roger Stone contacted Mr. Trump at the time to tell him about the e-mails that were going to be dropped, ultimately learning several days later that they were the Podesta e-mails.
So Trump knew it. I talked about it all the time, that Trump speaks and behaves like the mob boss. And this is exactly what he's doing. He's using his soldier. The problem here is that Rudy's not a soldier. I mean, Rudy is -- Rudy is drunk all the time, which is a big problem.
And that's what makes him susceptible, because his faculties are gone. He behaves crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Now, as a journalist, then I have to ask you, are you sharing an opinion, or are you sharing an observation, like you have seen him drink X amount? That's the same thing an investigator would ask.
COHEN: Oh, I have seen -- no, no, I have seen him drink, to the point like he's a high school drunk. And it makes him susceptible.
And he takes the information that he gets, and he provides it off to the president, and simply because Rudy, who used to be considered a -- I mean, a real litigator, and he was considered to be America's mayor, is now really just a joke.
MELBER: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: And he takes it right back to Trump. And Trump listens to it.
MELBER: And I will say this.
And you know this, Michael. And I emphasize this to viewers. We invite people on. We had Rick Gates on this week. We have invited Giuliani on before this year. He hasn't come on. He's welcome to come on and get a fair hearing.
I just -- you know, I have to say that.
With regard to this reporting, Michael, you have NBC and others reporting the feds are examining whether these Biden e-mails are linked to foreign intelligence. If they are, and people were conspiring knowingly, they could, as you know, face more criminal heat than in '16, where a lot of the defense was, well, people didn't really know on the Trump side, Michael.
COHEN: Yes, the problem here is that the whole story is just so strange.
Hunter Biden leaves a computer at a fix-it store. The guy, for some reason, goes into it. He copies it. He gives it the Robert Costello, who tried to become my attorney, at Rudy Giuliani's behest, so that he could find out everything that I was doing. Then he could report back to Rudy, so that baby Rudy can go running off to big Donald.
I mean, the whole thing is just...
MELBER: They tried to set you up, then.
That's interesting. I know you have touched on this. But you're saying, which is, among other things, a violation of legal ethics, that they would have someone come in, not to serve your interests, but to be a fake lawyer to protect Trump?
COHEN: That's correct.
And we have all the e-mails. And the FBI had it, and the House Select Intelligence, the Senate Select Intelligence, the House Oversight, everybody saw those text messages.
And then, when I turned around, I said, no, I'm going to go with a different lawyer, felt a little uncomfortable, he then tried to send me a bill, on top of everything.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Well, you could pull a Trump, and just not pay any of the bills.
Michael, you have been through so much of this.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: By the way, I learned from the best, and I did not pay him. I pulled a Trump.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: Because I had no obligation to pay him, unlike Trump.
MELBER: One thing all lawyers could agree on across all other spectrum of disagreement, lawyers do overbill.
COHEN: Yes.
MELBER: They do overbill.
Michael, you have been through so much of this. You have been very candid. We have had you on alone. We have had you on in interesting settings. I hope you will continue to join us and edify our viewers on THE BEAT here in these last 18 days. I'd love to have you back.
COHEN: Well, I think it's really important. And that's why I do come back when you ask.
First of all, I find your show to be balanced and fair, which is a compliment to you and to MSNBC.
One of the things that I tried to project with the book and with the podcast and even these appearances, it is extremely important to get out and vote, because, if you don't, you have no right to complain about the monster that's now sitting in the White House.
And I know he's a monster, because in all fairness, I was the Dr. Frankenstein that created him. He doesn't care about anyone or anything other than himself.
And when Rudy gets caught with Robert Costello and the rest of them in this fake disinformation on the Bidens, he will drop Rudy to the same extent that he dropped me, and throw him under the bus.
And I -- actually, I look forward to seeing it.
MELBER: Michael, thank you for that. Thank you for your warning.
People, I think, are listening.
The book, again, "Disloyal," is out now.
We appreciate Michael Cohen coming on.
Up ahead, we have a lot more, as mentioned, our friend Michael Steele, with our new friend, comedian and "Curb Your Enthusiasm" star Jeff Garlin. We're going to get into all of it, including how to live and laugh through even hard times in 2020.
Also, there's something special going on behind the scenes with the Obama presidency. You may have heard a little bit about it. We have more on that also in tonight's program.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: It's Friday on THE BEAT, and that means it's time to "Fallback."
And what an epic duo here, the legendary comedian Jeff Garlin eating his way into the segment. I love it.
You know him from stand-up, Netflix specials. He's been in "Toy Story," hit TV shows like "The Goldbergs," which Nicolle Wallace shouted out tonight on live TV, to "Arrested Development," to, of course, our favorite, HBO's "Curb Your Enthusiasm," where he teams up with Richard Lewis and the icon Larry David.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF GARLIN, ACTOR: She chose a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) dog over her own father.
LARRY DAVID, ACTOR: You sat down, you laid it out, you told her?
GARLIN: I talked to her. I told her, daddy is sick. He can't stay in the same house with Oscar. She wants Oscar!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: We were just making a wrestling film.
GARLIN: Well, now you're just sitting in my lampless room making nothing. I'm shutting it down!
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Check it out. Dad is wrestling the camera.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: Camera! Camera! Camera! Camera!
GARLIN: Where's the button? Something? Damn it! That's it! No more wrestling in this house.
I am immensely successful.
(LAUGHTER)
GARLIN: No, I am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: And we're joined by friend of THE BEAT Michael Steele, the former lieutenant governor of Maryland, ran the Republican Party, but most importantly, you see right here on your screen, he was forever turned into how we know him best, a lovable Muppet, on Jon Stewart's "Daily Show."
We will never forget it. He's also been staying up late with us during MSNBC's special coverage. We have debuted the unofficial, but ever entertaining late night and punchy with Michael Steele, coming to you after any late-night debate.
Good to have both of you here.
STEELE: Hey, man, what's up?
GARLIN: Great to be here.
MELBER: What's up, Jeff?
GARLIN: So, literally, I mean, two minutes ago, they said, all right, he's got one segment. I don't know what that is. But you will be in the segment after that.
That's why, when I looked up and saw myself on the screen, I'm like, what? All right. I'm good.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Hey, thanks for rolling with us.
We brought you in earlier, Jeff. You were eating on camera. You are a professional. So you have been around the camera. You know the camera is on.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: I was having a coconut fruit bar.
STEELE: It's good. It's good. That's good.
GARLIN: Yes.
MELBER: I'm going to throw something briefly at Michael Steele. Then we're going to go to Jeff.
Michael, look at this ballot box size. Talk about things that should maybe fall back.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: They put a drop box sign on a trash can.
Take it away, Michael.
STEELE: Yes. I mean, look, I know you want to get off the vote, but you want to make sure it gets there.
(LAUGHTER)
STEELE: So, people -- look, we're dealing -- we're dealing with folks, right? We're dealing with people out there. And they come up with their ballot in their hand, and they look at the sign and go, oh, OK. And they drop it in the trash can. Could be a problem.
They need to fall back on the sign placement. All right? Not every place is the most appropriate place to put a sign to go vote.
MELBER: Yes.
STEELE: I guess it. You got that arrow pointing in a certain direction.
But people don't look down that far. OK? They just don't.
MELBER: And, Jeff -- I mean, Jeff, you know what the kids say when they don't like something? Like, if they don't like an album or a movie, they say, that's trash.
I mean, that whole placement is trash, Jeff.
GARLIN: I just want to say, officially, I have no idea what the kids say.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Well, you -- we just saw you bantering with kids on the set.
GARLIN: I don't have a clue.
And, by the way, can I be honest? I have no interest in what the kids say. They can say whatever the hell they want.
(LAUGHTER)
GARLIN: And I want to say for the record, everyone comes down on millennials. I love millennials. Let them do what they want.
Being a child (AUDIO GAP)
MELBER: Let me ask you a question, Jeff. How do millennials feel about...
GARLIN: You can ask me anything you want, Ari. I'm your guest. Go!
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: How do millennials feel about you shouting all your lines in every project that you're in?
GARLIN: I can go very soft, Ari, and very real.
I happen to enjoy getting excited. Whether it's stand-up or "Goldbergs" or "Curb Your Enthusiasm," getting excited, big bowl of fun.
Like, if I saw that garbage can in person, I would go, what the hell is that? I'd rip it off. Wait. Hold on. I would rip off the sign, and I would stand there and go, they expected you to throw it in here! Give it to me. I will mail it for you.
(LAUGHTER)
GARLIN: As a matter of fact, I want to say, that's what I'm going to do now.
I'm going to stick a drop box thing in front of me, and I will collect them, and distribute them, take them right to the post office.
STEELE: Hey, Jeff?
MELBER: Hey, it takes a village. If you want to get involved in the voter turnout, we love it.
Go ahead, Michael.
STEELE: No, Jeff, I was just going to say, when you do that, bro, I will be there right next to you with an umbrella to keep you nice and comfortable out of the rain, out of the snow, whatever. I'm there, brother. I got your back.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: Well, gosh, Michael, thank you very much.
The man's going to hold an umbrella for me. Being in show business, that happens to me quite often. Whenever I go for a walk to the set, and it's raining, umbrella. Too sunny, umbrella. Completely embarrassing.
MELBER: Well, that would make -- to be clear, that would make you, Jeff, the Diddy to Michael Steele's Fonzworth Bentley, an obscure, but accurate reference to his umbrella holding.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: Hold on a second here. Let's just take a stop here, Ari.
You're a white Jew. Let's stop with the rap stuff.
(LAUGHTER)
GARLIN: I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy it.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Rap is universal, like all music, Jeff.
GARLIN: I enjoy it.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: Hey, I used to be very much into N.W.A. and Public Enemy.
But I got -- and gang-star. But you are out of control. I'm sorry.
MELBER: Shout-out to gang-star.
Michael Steele, Michael Steele, are you with Jeff or me? Because I think music is universal.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: It is universal, but you're quoting it all the time!
All right, go, Michael Steele.
Michael, who are you with? Who are you with, the guy you're holding the umbrella for that you want to keep safe as he's collecting votes, or this -- am I allowed to say schmuck on the air?
MELBER: Well, you just did.
STEELE: I think you just did, so...
GARLIN: OK.
But a handsome, glorious schmuck. You are the best, the best.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: When does Michael get to answer your question?
GARLIN: Right now.
STEELE: So, given that I have got to come back on the air with my colleague and friend, I'm with the man over here in the tie.
I will hold the umbrella, bro.
GARLIN: OK. OK.
STEELE: But when it comes to the music thing, I got to give props to the -- I got to give props to the guy here.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Last thing.
Jeff, I think we will put this in like V.O. I don't think we even have time to play the whole thing.
But we have that famous MAGA scene in a recent "Curb" where Larry's joking, he could wear a MAGA hat, a red hat, and that would help him avoid talking to people, because he's in a blue state.
Walk us through all of that and "Curb" getting political.
GARLIN: Well, you have to understand, we don't look at it as getting political.
It's a comedic opportunity. So, him wearing the MAGA hat is all about being funny, not making a point. We have no time to make points. We -- that's not what we do. We want to point out ignorance or craziness in the world and use it for comedy.
There is no -- it's so funny. Yes, Larry's a liberal. I'm a liberal. All good and fine. But that's not our approach. Our approach is, what is funny? Is it funny? That's all it's about.
And the MAGA hat idea, crazy funny.
MELBER: Well, Jeff -- Jeff, I don't know if you know the saying. If it bends, it's funny.
GARLIN: What is it, from what rap song? From what rap song, Ari?
Go.
MELBER: If it bends, it's funny, but if it breaks, it's...
STEELE: It's money.
GARLIN: Not funny.
MELBER: It's not funny. Alan Alda.
GARLIN: By the way, "Crimes and Misdemeanors," Alan Alda, "Crimes and Misdemeanors," one of the greatest performances of my lifetime.
MELBER: A movie about morality and Judaism, which you sought fit to bring up today, for whatever reason.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: ... with the thing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
GARLIN: Do you like Action Bronson?
STEELE: I still prefer the money.
GARLIN: Hold on. Do you like Action Bronson?
MELBER: Sure. I got to -- I'm out of time. I love Action Bronson.
GARLIN: He's my friend.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: I'm going to fit in a break, as we do in this business.
Since you yell, I'm yelling a little too.
Jeff Garlin, I love you coming on. I hope you will come back. We will do this tandem after the election. You guys can tell us how the vote -- how the vote counting went.
And we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: We had some fun at the end of the week here.
I want to thank all our guests, including Jeff and Michael Steele, and also tell you the programming note that I mentioned earlier.
There is a TV premiere tonight of "The Way I See It." This is a brand-new documentary and explores the Obama presidency through the eyes of someone up close and personal, the talented White House photographer Pete Souza.
"The Way I See It" will air. And, by the way, we're airing it commercial-free on MSNBC at 10:00 p.m. Eastern/7:00 p.m. Pacific tonight.
"THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID" is coming up right after this break.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END
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