Summary
Rapper Busta Rhymes speaks out. Georgia senatorial candidate, Jon Ossoff discusses his race. Rachel Maddow discusses her new book, "Bag Man: The Wild Crimes, Audacious Cover-Up, and Spectacular Downfall of a Brazen Crook in the White House.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: "THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER" starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you so much.
And welcome to THE BEAT. I am Ari Melber.
Tonight: Donald Trump is getting a preview of what it will be like to be an ex-president, because he's watching from the sidelines while new decision-makers do what they do and make important decisions.
President-elect Biden making news here, adding Pete Buttigieg formally to his Cabinet. Meanwhile, lawmakers working to try to reach an actual COVID relief deal, often treating this lame-duck president as an afterthought.
And Leader Mitch McConnell's acknowledgment of Joe Biden's victory, meanwhile, while finally helping move Washington forward an inch, is so tardy, after so much coddling of Donald Trump's blatant denial, the whole thing is actually ripe for late-night treatment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": With yesterday's Electoral College results, some Republicans have been forced to face their biggest fear: reality.
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": McConnell said, as of this morning, our country officially has a president-elect, as if we hadn't had one for the 40 more things before that.
SETH MEYERS, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS": Wow. No, hurry, Mitch. What else did you formerly recognize? Alaskan statehood?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Meanwhile, President Trump's schedule has been famously quite lean since losing the election. But he is finding some time -- we're seeing reports of this -- to focus on items of personal and political interest to himself and his future, trying to potentially supersize the legal probe into president-elect Biden's son, which could try to lengthen it during the next administration, also clashing with his own lawyers over talk of potentially firing another FBI director amidst reports there could also be significant terminations in national security or intelligence before Trump leaves.
The focus on law enforcement comes as Trump's legal issues mount. After losing every major election challenge this year, Trump is facing separate legal setbacks in cases, for example, regarding his business, a federal judge siding with New York prosecutors who will pry new evidence from Trump.org.
So, with these 35 days left until inauguration and a changing of the guard Donald Trump showing no signs of the formal concession that is long overdue, while it seems Washington has treated his concession as a silent fait accompli.
We're joined now by former Barack Obama pollster Cornell Belcher and BBC news Washington anchor Katty Kay.
Good to see both of you.
Cornell, it is a big contrast. We have discussed and reported on the grave problems around the nation, actual attempts to get some COVID relief bill done, while Trump is either MIA or focused on things that are essentially personal in nature.
(LAUGHTER)
CORNELL BELCHER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
And I'm reminded that, just this past weekend in Washington, D.C., we had a lot of Trump supporters marching and actually rioting in the streets to keep this man in office who is actually paying almost little to no attention to them and their needs right now.
It is bizarre, to say the least. At a moment where you have millions of people plunging into poverty and the holiday season upon us, you would think that -- and, quite frankly, some of his supporters are, in fact, the most economically vulnerable.
You would think he would -- if he really cared about his job or really cared about holding on to the presidency, he would least be trying to do his job and try to move something for the millions of Americans who are suffering right now.
But, instead, he's trying to settle scores and pick beef, quite frankly.
MELBER: Yes. Yes.
And the Hunter Biden interest there being an example of that.
Katty, I don't know who would be the British version of Geraldo. I don't know if you guys have one over there. But Geraldo occupies a special place in American life. I will say that on the record.
And he has been an ally of Donald Trump, who now is doing a little bit more of the breaking -- if you want to call acknowledging the reality that there's a new president-elect breaking with Trump -- he was speaking out. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS: It is over. I want the president, my friend, the current president, the 45th president, to understand it is over. The Electoral College has voted. The longer we drag this out, the more we damage the fabric of our democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Katty?
KATTY KAY, BBC NEWS: Yes, in a way, it doesn't surprise me that we're getting these reports at the moment that the president wants to have some kind of a special counsel investigation into Hunter Biden and his associates, because the president is increasingly losing people who had been stalwarts around him.
We have had Bill Barr. We have had Mitch McConnell. We have had Geraldo even come out and say, look, this is over.
And the president appears to be so exercised by his loss in the election and a feeling that people did not stand with him firmly enough, whether it's Christopher Wray at the FBI or Bill Barr in the Justice Department, to try to get him the election, that he -- that he's suggesting things like a special counsel, kind of doing anything he can to mitigate his loss in his own mind, perhaps.
But I think it's not surprising. People are drifting away from him, and so he is going to reach for increasingly desperate or difficult measures.
MELBER: Yes.
And that goes to some of this reporting I mentioned.
I mean, Cornell, he came in firing James Comey as FBI director, sparking a Mueller probe that Donald Trump resented, and that Bill Barr was still obsessing over in his goodbye letter. I mean, it's like they can't get over it, even though it's over.
And yet we are seeing these reports about wholesale terminations, ousting the Pentagon chief. The president has that lawful right. Ousting another FBI director, which, ironically, would give Biden more room if Trump did it, because you would have a lot more of a reason to potentially put in a new person if the new -- if there was an interim hole, rather than leaving a Trump FBI director in place.
What do you think it says that Donald Trump still is being sort of boxed in and talked out of things that are, even by the narrow standard, probably against his interests?
BELCHER: It says that this is a man in administration who is -- who's been about him and his own interests, more so than the interest of the American people, and certainly has run roughshod over the rule of law and has played it quick and fast with the rules and regulations.
But I got to say him going after the -- president-elect Biden's son, Ari, it really is a new low in an administration that has seen a lot of new lows. But to be going after the -- this Biden's son in such a personal way to try to undermine Biden and try to sort of hurt Biden, it's so unbecoming of the office.
And I know we have said that before 1,000 times about things that Trump has done. But I got to say, this is just a new low, where he's going after another man son in such a personal way just to hurt by Biden.
MELBER: Yes.
And the overhang of this, Katty, is something that we're still going to just have to follow. There was a lot of prediction about post-Trump, if he loses, what this would feel like. And some of that hasn't come to fruition yet.
There's certainly a lot going on, a lot of interest in the news. There's certainly an evolution on the Republican side, both some holding so steadfast to Trump, even though he lost, that that kind of blows up some of those predictions.
And Senator Peters out of Michigan was out there today. I want to show people this, if they haven't seen it yet -- a lot going on -- really concerned about the other overhang, which is this sustained and long-term attack on our election system itself.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. GARY PETERS (D-MI): Whether intended or not, this hearing gives a platform to conspiracy theories and lies. And it's a destructive exercise that has no place in the United States Senate.
Despite the title of today's hearing, there were no widespread election irregularities that affected the final outcome. These claims are false. And giving them more oxygen is a grave threat to the future of our democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The idea that, well after the election and after all legal challenges have been exhausted, the Upper House, the cooler saucer to the hot tea cup, if you want to go all the way back to George Washington, a rapper that I know Cornell likes, is not being very responsible, according to the facts, but is actually, as Senator Peters and others have pointed out, is fanning what is really only a Trumpian market.
We didn't have those same attacks on democracy four or eight years ago, before Trump took over the party.
KAY: Yes.
And, look, I think everybody is concerned about the fact that there are tens of millions of Americans who still do not believe that this was a free and fair election, despite all of the evidence that has been produced so far, and what impact does that have on Joe Biden as a president? And that's the kind of pessimistic take on all of this.
The optimistic take, I guess, is that the institutions, as Joe Biden said the other night, did survive. The institutions of democracy did survive this onslaught. And we are going to have Joe Biden sworn into the presidency on January the 20th.
And, moreover, you had state officials around the country, much less so from Washington officials, and particularly Republicans, who still seem to be absolutely terrified of Donald Trump, but, around the country, you had state officials in Arizona and in Georgia and in Michigan standing up and doing the job, whether they were Democrats or Republicans, that they were elected to do.
So, actually, I look at this process. And, yes, it was remarkable to see this election being litigated far beyond the sell-by date of when it should have been litigated, but it was also impressive to see individuals stand up, like Gabriel Sterling in Georgia, say, this has to stop, we have to protect the institutions of democracy, even though he's a Republican and a conservative and has been a Trump supporter.
He did stand up and say, democracy comes first.
MELBER: I won't go as far as to say half -- a half-full glass, given everything that's gone wrong this year, but you're more of a maybe a quarter-full.
KAY: I'm trying to do a little bit of holiday cheer here.
MELBER: Yes, the glass is not...
KAY: A little bit of holiday cheer.
MELBER: It's not empty. We will take it, quarter-full eggnog and growing.
Before I lose you, Cornell, why don't you tell us what's in your background? Because I'm noticing that. We will take it in fall and give us a room tour.
(LAUGHTER)
BELCHER: It's a painting of, of course, the famous King photo from when he was arrested.
So, it's a little art, but a little art with meaning.
And, Ari, as I have this moment, I got to say I'm a little disappointed that you didn't pick up on my beef reference to launch into Notorious B.I.G. What's beef, right? Beef was when you are afraid to start your jeep, right?
I'm really disappointed, Ari.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Beef is when you need two gats to go to sleep. Beef is when I see you as guaranteed to be in ICU.
(CROSSTALK)
BELCHER: Be in ICU, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: I'll tell you -- all right, you are going to call me out.
I heard it. It was so high in the program that I didn't take it. Had it been a little later in the hour, but since you're calling me out, man...
(LAUGHTER)
KAY: Tough crowd.
MELBER: Cornell -- yes, tough crowd, indeed. But we're -- we're the smarter for it.
Cornell and Katty, two expert guests kick us off. Thanks to both of you.
BELCHER: Thank you.
MELBER: I got to tell the audience here, I'm actually very excited about the rest of tonight's show.
We have a special lineup. Let me tell you exactly what it is, the one and only Rachel Maddow, Georgia Senate candidate Jon Ossoff, and music icon Busta Rhymes. You see it here, three figures on the news and in the news.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL MADDOW, HOST, "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW": Senator Harris joining us live tonight.
SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT: Thank you, Rachel.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Honk for your next state senators. Jon Ossoff.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Like Busta Rhymes, right? You talking about Busta Rhymes. Man, come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: We will start the candidate who could turn the balance of power in the Senate, Jon Ossoff, when we're back in just 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Here's a riddle in Washington.
If a Democrat wins the White House, but Mitch McConnell still runs the Senate, is there really a Democratic administration?
Both parties see the issue here. Democrats see Mitch McConnell as a Supreme Court-stealing, Obama-blocking menace. Republicans see McConnell as a Supreme Court-protecting, Obama-blocking Grim Reaper, his words.
So, if you think about how much of the Biden era may come down to whether Mitch is still in charge, giving Obama a hard time, will he be able to give Biden the same hard time, well, a lot of Democrats are saying it all comes down to demoting Mitch, so they don't even have to worry about it.
It's a strategy that depends in part on this candidate, Georgia Democrat Jon Ossoff, running for one of the two seats the Democrats need to win back the Senate, along with Georgia Democrat Raphael Warnock.
Ossoff hitting hard in recent debates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON OSSOFF (D), GEORGIA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Perhaps Senator Perdue would have been able to respond properly to the COVID-19 pandemic if you hadn't been fending off multiple federal investigations for insider trading.
It is not idle chatter, Senator. It's 220,000 Americans killed by a virus.
It's not just that you're a crook, Senator. It's that you're attacking the health of the people that you represent.
Are you done, Senator?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Perdue refusing to do any more debates, leading Ossoff to recently go on stage -- you see there -- next to one empty lectern.
Jon Ossoff joins us now at a busy and pivotal time in the campaign.
Thanks for being here.
OSSOFF: Ari, you like the bus?
MELBER: The bus behind you?
OSSOFF: We're on the road. This is the Health Jobs and Justice Tour across Georgia, affordable health care for every Georgia family, infrastructure and clean energy and jobs and a new Civil Rights Act. We're on the road right now.
Thank you for having me.
MELBER: You bet. Yes, it looks crisp. So I -- and you jumped right off the bus to talk to us, which I appreciate.
There's so much going on.
For someone who lives in Georgia, who may be less interested than we are here in the national press about McConnell, what changes for their lives if you win?
OSSOFF: I think Georgia voters recognize the stakes and that the Senate majority hangs in the balance, and remember what Mitch McConnell did when he controlled the Senate and Obama was in the White House.
And he's going to try to do the exact same thing to Joe and Kamala if he maintains his grip on power. And that means that establishing health care as a human right for every Georgia family. That means that investing in economic recovery, in infrastructure, jobs, clean energy, rural broadband, transit, and transportation.
That means passing criminal justice reform, a new Civil Rights Act and a new Voting Rights Act. All of that will be stopped in its tracks unless we win these two races in Georgia. The stakes are very clear. The contrast between the candidates couldn't be clearer.
We have got two incumbent United States senators in Georgia, who, when they learned about the threat COVID-19 posed to their own constituents, they called their brokers, instead of attending to the needs of the citizens here.
So, we are getting out the vote to win these races...
MELBER: Yes, let's...
OSSOFF: ... so that we can get things done.
MELBER: Let's get into that.
You hit hard on that, we just saw. That's a way a lot of people have been asking Democrats to go harder, when they have the arguments on their side there.
What does it tell you that there was this type of personal profiteering against a humanitarian crisis?
OSSOFF: Well, it reveals that the corruption in Washington is totally out of control.
I mean, look, you have got United States senators who, while they have access to privileged and classified intelligence about a global pandemic, are buying stock in manufacturers of medical equipment and vaccines, dumping their assets to protect their portfolios.
But it's deeper than that. I mean, the reason that we can't make the investments in clean energy that we need, the reason that the private prison industry continues to lobby for mass incarceration, the reason that insurance and drug companies are allowed to rip off citizens of the state is because of corruption in the political system, the Citizens United decision, which allows limitless corporate spending.
My opponent, David Perdue, who's too much of a coward to debate me, who hasn't held a public town hall in six years, literally sells meetings for corporate PAC checks. And we have got to pass campaign finance reform to return government to the business of the people.
MELBER: We have seen a lot of people focus in on Georgia, given everything that's at stake, including a lot of artists, big figures. You can go to some actor and celebrity Instagram accounts, and they're just -- they're all talking about Georgia, because it matters to everything.
We have got a little bit of 2 Chainz urging people to get registered. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
2 CHAINZ, RAPPER: All right, what up, what up? It's 2 Chainz here.
And the Georgia Senate run-off ends February 5. So, I want to see everybody vote. I want to know that everybody votes.
So, what I'm doing is, I'm teaming up with HeadCount, and I'm giving away a free Tesla. That's right, a free Tesla. All you have to do is go to HeadCount.org/2Chainz for your chance to win.
That's it. Let's do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Do you have any indication of whether all the new interest, eyes on Georgia in a special run-off is helping turnout, where we have seen a early turnout surge, or specifically helping your campaign and Democrats, or do you just not know?
OSSOFF: We're seeing record-breaking turnout and we're seeing huge turnout among young voters.
And getting voices from the culture involved is so important, because the reality is, most people are not watching cable news. No disrespect, Ari. Most people are not scrolling Twitter for political content.
Most people see the political circus for what it is. So, when people from a different part of the culture can enter the conversation and encourage people to participate, it makes a big difference.
And, by the way, I had a huge day about two months ago, when President Barack Obama came to campaign in Atlanta. Not only did I get to meet President Obama. That same day, I met 2 Chainz.
So, 2 Chainz, thank you for getting involved in the campaign here.
MELBER: There you go.
Yes, you're talking about the culture.
Before I let you go, if you have time, I can tell you a terrible joke, which we do on the show. I know you're new to THE BEAT.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: But it sounds like you're starting out...
OSSOFF: Go for it.
MELBER: You're starting out for the culture, but, if this works and you win, you will be doing it for the cloture.
OSSOFF: There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
OSSOFF: There you go.
MELBER: Sorry.
OSSOFF: We can talk about Senate rules changes next time I come on.
(LAUGHTER)
OSSOFF: But, for now, let the message stand that this is about health, jobs and justice for the people, health, jobs and justice.
Help us get out the vote. ElectJon, ElectJon.com.
Thank you for the opportunity to come on the show.
MELBER: You got it, sir. And we will be keeping an eye on whether you are casting cloture votes to cut off the filibuster.
Senate parliamentary jokes, as you know, they do very well in every state.
Jon Ossoff, thanks for being here, sir.
OSSOFF: Thank you so much. Take care.
MELBER: Appreciate it.
Coming up, we have a lot more in the program. I told you it's a special episode.
Well, we have got fast-track news about the second COVID vaccine. We also have lame-duck Trump talking up pardons, getting ready to leave office with some major legal exposure that may rival Nixon's.
We're going to get into all of that and more with Rachel Maddow, live on THE BEAT next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Thirty-five days, that's how long Donald Trump has left as president.
Nobody knows what comes next in this lame-duck period or on day -- call it day 36, when Trump will lose the power of the presidency.
We do know that, like Nixon, Donald Trump leaves office with many legal headaches, talking up pardons for himself, his family or even a blitz for others.
With Attorney General Barr leaving next week, those final pardons, if they come, would come with potentially even less internal supervision, though it's not like Trump was very restrained before.
He has these multiple convicted advisers and already used the pardon power to grant lenience to Flynn and Stone, key figures from the Russia probe, while another aide who pled guilty to Mueller is also publicly seeking a pardon by January 20.
It even came up on this program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK GATES, FORMER TRUMP DEPUTY CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: I think everybody should have an opportunity where the president says, this is not right, this is not fair, and, yes, ultimately, he pardons all of us.
MELBER: You hope that the president, before this, before he's out of office, gives you a full pardon?
GATES: Well, before out of office, absolutely, because that's the only time he can do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Nobody disagrees about that in terms of the timeline.
Now, many presidents faced some kind of investigation in office, but very few ever leave office with serious exposure for potential prosecution. Now, that was the case for Nixon, who cut off the real risk of federal prosecution by engineering a pardon from his successor, a controversial one.
But that's what makes Donald Trump's tweets and recent leaks about a self-pardon so striking. The only rough sort of ballpark precedent here would be the historical low point of what Nixon did to try stay out of jail, to try to stay out of jail.
And that capped a tense and often improper approach to the entire Justice Department. Nixon's team wanted to control independent Justice. And they grew more reckless when those probes reached near them. Nixon and his V.P., Spiro Agnew, went after the DOJ, which Rachel Maddow traces in her book and podcast "Bag Man."
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MADDOW: What Spiro Agnew unleashed in that packed convention hall was an all-out attack on the Justice Department, the likes of which nobody had really seen before in U.S. politics.
SPIRO AGNEW, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Irrespective of the claims of certain individuals in the Department of Justice, it was not through my fault that this became a non-secret procedure, but through deliberately contrived actions of individuals in the prosecutorial system of the United States.
And I regard those as outrageous and malicious.
(APPLAUSE)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: You may know that hit podcast
It is now a book, "Bag Man," with history lessons on power, justice, and the spectacular downfall of a White House crook.
Rachel is here live to discuss her work and this wild news week after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: We are back with my colleague Rachel Maddow, host of "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" and the podcast "Bag Man," which is the title of her new book, a deep dive, as discussed, into the downfall of the Nixon administration. It's out now. We highly recommend you get it.
You're pretty busy, as evidenced by the book. Thanks for making time, Rachel.
MADDOW: Ari, it's so great to see you.
And I cannot believe you just made a cloture/culture joke with Jon Ossoff.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: I was like, is he actually going to -- is he going to -- I felt like I was in a car that was actually crashing, and there was no brake.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: I was like, stop, don't do it!
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: It was going to crash the whole time. You're correct about that.
We look at this book. History is old, but it rhymes and echoes. And we hear all that. And you have been so interested in these stories and brought them back to light, I think, for a different audience.
And here we are post-election. What about this do you think resonates today?
MADDOW: The thing that carries forward directly, not even as an echo, but is just a direct link, is the fact that the president's immunity from prosecution goes to an OLC memo at the Justice Department.
The origins of that OLC member at the Justice Department are the Agnew scandal. And so, learning that history, which is actually something that we mostly learned after Mike and I finished the podcast -- it's part of the reason we wanted to write the book, because we did new reporting about the origin of that policy at the Justice Department, which Trump, as you know, has benefited some -- benefited from so greatly.
So that, to me, feels important, that we should understand where that policy came from, because it's not where you would think. It's not like a founding fathers kind of thing. It's a crooked Spiro Agnew origin.
But you totally right in the way you set this up, Ari. Like, we haven't seen somebody leave office since Nixon who potentially was looking down the barrel of serious prosecution for multiple felonies.
And Trump can -- I mean, CNN is reporting today that one of the people Trump's considering pardoning is not only himself, but Allen Weisselberg, who is the top financial guy at the Trump Organization. I mean, if the president pardons him, pardons the top financial guy at his own business on his way out of office, I just -- I mean, this is -- it's worth contending anew with the threat to the republic of having a felon in the White House.
MELBER: Exactly.
And what you point out here in this work and what people study for long periods of time is, the problem in a system of, well, who will watch the watchers? OK, the CIA is good at surveilling. Who watches them? OK, who will have accountability for the chief executive, who's supposed to create the accountability?
They are tough questions. And when faced with accusations, we get a similar response. We have very briefly here just Trump and Agnew comparison here. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AGNEW: I want to say at this point, clearly and unequivocally, I am innocent of the charges against me.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It was a complete and total exoneration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Pardons hang over Nixon...
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Right?
Pardons hang over Nixon, as everyone knows, from the way he went out, and with what Trump is doing.
How important is it, do you think, that we have a knowledgeable enough civic culture to say, well, the pardon is a commutation of and a reference to your guilt?
MADDOW: Yes, exactly, and that we have some, I think, renewed and more nuanced discussion about whether or not the pardon power can be used corruptly.
I mean, the -- if the pardon power is used to prevent the discovery of another crime or to prevent the implication of the executive himself or herself, that -- I mean, I know the pardon power is black letter law of the Constitution, but it's -- if it is used for corrupt purposes, is it potentially something that could be pushed back on by the judiciary?
And you saw that actually with Judge Emmet Sullivan in the Flynn case raise that in open court, when he had to -- he had to announce formally that he would -- the Flynn case would end because of the pardon that had been issued by President Trump for Flynn.
But he said at that moment that, if the pardon power is misused, judges may query it. Judges may push back on it. And I think Trump is up against that.
And, I mean, what we learned with -- what we learned with Agnew is that the system isn't pushed to the breaking point by virtue of the fact that there are people in power committing crimes. The system is pushed to the breaking point when the people who are supposed to police that are themselves cowed or corrupted.
And as long as you have got people with a backbone and people with civic duty guiding them in law enforcement, then the Constitution works to police bad behavior. Bad men aren't the problem. Bad officials who are supposed to hold bad men in power, that's the problem.
MELBER: Well, that's such an important point you raise, which is straightforward, but not often fully examined, which is, if doctors are doing crime, that might be worse than a random person, given the personal authority they have, right, over patients, right? Policing is another example we have debated a lot.
There's no expectation that these politicians will have a lower crime rate than others. And depending on how unchecked their power is, they may have a higher one. The question is not, how do we get, as you say, angels to do zero crime, but does the system work?
And it brings me to reading from your book.
You write about the pushback: "Agnew was signaling he was willing to employ a scorched-earth survival strategy: The allegations against him were fabrications. The witnesses were crazy. The prosecutors were zealous and out to get him. It was a" -- there it is everyone -- quote -- "witch-hunt."
If it's good enough to work, it's good enough to plagiarize. Why come up with your own slogans?
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Why is it that those public rhetoric attacks at least work in the short term -- above my pay grade to say where we are in 10 years -- but that some of them worked then at first, work now, if not forever?
MADDOW: Because it takes incredible bravery not to fall prey to that sort of thing. I mean, one of the things -- one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast on Agnew and I wanted to write this book about it is because I feel like the good guys in this story need their song sung a little bit.
Like, we tell each other tales of heroism and patriotism to try to help ourselves plan for and wish for and build ourselves into the kind of people who would follow those examples. And in the case of George Beall, the U.S. attorney in Maryland, he's just got line prosecutors who are pursuing penny-ante local corruption.
They stumble upon what the sitting vice president is doing, taking envelopes stuffed full of cash in his vice presidential office. He gets such pressure. Kleindienst, the corrupt attorney general under Nixon who's there at the start of the organization, leans on Beall and tells him to drop it.
His brother, the U.S. attorney's brother, who's a Republican senator helped into office by Agnew and Nixon, leans on him, tells him to drop the prosecution.
George H.W. Bush, running the Republican Party at the time, leans on him, tells him to drop the prosecution. The White House leans on him, tells him to drop it. And he just stands up to it and does what's right, never even lets his line prosecutors know about the pressure he's getting.
That is extraordinary civic heroism. And George Beall should be famous for it. I mean, he's passed now, but I think his story can strengthen our own spines now to do the right thing, because Bill Barr is as much of the story of the Trump era, in terms of what went wrong in this country, as Donald Trump is.
And men like Elliot Richardson and George Beall from the Agnew era are the reasons that one went right.
MELBER: It's really -- it's really important when you put it like that, and it goes to -- like everything else, history has a narrative bias, depending on who was in charge then and what's interesting or available to look back on.
So, I think it's a safe observation here for MSNBC viewers that Rachel will go that much deeper to find the other stuff. And if it has a point, then great.
The last thing I want to ask you about before I lose you, Rachel, because this is your -- you're busy this year, first time on THE BEAT in 2020.
Boy, what a journey. And we just have a little bit of tape from something that I -- is maybe harder than it looks, which is the breaking news side of it.
And this is -- we're going to look at Rachel 2016 election night after the call...
MADDOW: Wow.
MELBER: ... as you're processing this and telling the story to America, and also this cycle's election night, for some reflections on the other side.
Let's take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Muslim Americans and Latino Americans and immigrants documented and otherwise right now are in fear for what the country just did and for what our country means, not just what Trump will do, but what it means that our country just endorsed him, after what he threatened.
This is uncharted territory for an American president and for American democracy to have one of the two major party candidates, let alone the incumbent president, saying that the election ought to be over and he ought to be declared the winner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Wow.
MELBER: How do these two election nights stack up, with a little time to reflect on both of them for you, and the whole road ahead?
MADDOW: Well, that just reminds me how hard it is to do live TV with no scripts and no prep and no reporters.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: That's part of what -- that's part of -- you're giving me a little bit of a traumatic stress flashback.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDOW: But I do think that this election -- I mean, this lame-duck period has been so weird.
And you and I did just have to have this whole discussion about whether the president's going to pardon himself and who else he is going to pardon and whether these trailing prosecutions are going to follow him home.
I mean, we have been through the bottomlands with these last four years. And I think all of us are -- however you feel about the election, I think a lot of us, maybe all of us, are praying for sort of a return to normalcy, a return to politics being boring again, at least to a certain extent.
It's been -- it's been a wild ride.
MELBER: Yes. Yes.
And it's sort of, how does everyone -- whether you're really into this and you're writing and working on it, like you are and news reporters are, or whether you're just a human, what does it mean to get out of a habit, potentially, of this being a constant federal D.C. chaos?
MADDOW: Exactly.
MELBER: And I say that knowing that the pandemic is unpredictable, and there's many reasons, political or not, that we don't know what comes next.
Rachel, amidst a busy week, thanks for being here.
MADDOW: Thank you for having me, my friend. It'll be sooner than last time before I come back again. Ask me back sometime soon. I'd love to be with you anytime.
MELBER: OK, great. We will hold you to that.
I want to remind everyone, the new book is "Bag Man." It's out now. And we checked. It just hit number three on the "New York Times" national bestseller list.
Of course, you can catch more Rachel tonight. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" airs 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.
We have a lot more in the program, including, how are artists taking on COVID, Trump and the future? Busta Rhymes is here. He's got a new album that is quite political.
But, first, an update on great news about fast-tracking the next COVID vaccine.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: An update to a question many have been asking: When will president-elect Biden get his own COVID vaccine? Well, as soon as next week. Vice President Pence, meanwhile, getting the vaccine in public this Friday.
All it comes as the U.S. and Pfizer negotiate this deal for 10 -- millions more vaccine doses. The U.S. is also about to fast-track a different vaccine from Moderna, where the trials were also promising. In fact, we heard from the first person ever to receive Moderna's vaccine back at the beginning of the process, as well as the second person to ever get the vaccine towards just the end of the trial last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER HALLER, FIRST VACCINE RECIPIENT: I am so excited that there was actually something that I could do.
The chance that I could have something to do with helping save lives is huge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want to see any more suffering and pain than we have to.
As a member of the human race, if I can step up and help and do something, I feel like it's my obligation to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Shout-out to the volunteers and all these health care workers.
Here we are, nine months after what you just saw first began, and we're seeing the rollout, health care workers like Dr. Adam Berman getting the actual vaccine, putting their health, of course, right on the line, along with others, saying, this is the way we get safe and telling everyone, join in when it's your turn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ADAM BERMAN, LONG ISLAND JEWISH MEDICAL CENTER: I feel great. I feel the same way that I felt after I got the flu vaccine.
We don't want to squander our ability to get ahead of this.
So, I think that, as much as people may want to wait, the time to get the vaccine is now. And I would encourage everybody to get it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Doctor's orders.
We also had a quick and less important question for Dr. Berman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Finally, are you ever afraid of needles?
(LAUGHTER)
BERMAN: I don't think that I could do my job if I was afraid of needles, so, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Shout-out to all the doctors and all the volunteers.
An interesting update. It is good news, amidst this busy year.
When we come back tonight, my special guest is Busta Rhymes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: This week, electors formally cast the votes determined from this year's election, which had record-breaking turnout, despite, of course, an ongoing pandemic.
We have also lived through a year of reckoning over race in America. It has been busier and more chaotic for all the reasons we know. And that's how many people asking, what kind of art and music will come out of all of this adversity of 2020?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE DANIELS, "EMPIRE" CREATOR: I think some of the best work that we have ever had, that we're capable of will come from this darkness.
AL PACINO, ACTOR: When it's personal, because that's really art.
KATY PERRY, MUSICIAN: A lot of artists are working from a place of pain. And from sometimes great pain comes great art.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And we're already seeing it begin even before this year's formally over.
Take the new album from Busta Rhymes. It eyes world facing racism, plagues, the prospect of extinction. Busta cites all the civil rights activism and asks in a new song: "How many more protests, how many more marches? Zero results. It's so grotesque. Don't even get me started."
Big questions we will dig into.
The legendary rapper Busta Rhymes is here to tackle them right now. The 12-time Grammy nominee got his name from Chuck D of Public Enemy and has performed with everyone from Biggie Smalls to A Tribe Called Quest. You have probably danced to one of his hits over the years, whether you know it or not, from "Woo-Hah!!," "Got You All in Check," to too "Dangerous," to, of course, "Pass the Courvoisier."
Now, his new music has a video that starts with a pretty relatable scene about the way we live now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. There will be no corona attitude in here tonight.
You're hot, but I want to make sure the temperature ain't the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That one with Bell Biv DeVoe. No corona attitude.
We are joined tonight, making his BEAT debut, a music legend.
Busta Rhymes, thanks for being here.
BUSTA RHYMES, RAPPER: Thanks for having me, Ari. How you doing this evening?
MELBER: I'm doing great.
And I'm excited about so many of the people we have had on tonight, yourself included.
BUSTA RHYMES: Thank you.
MELBER: This album really tackles where you see America right now. It's imbued with discussions of racism, of oppression, corona. What are you telling people with your new project?
BUSTA RHYMES: I'm basically trying to tell people that -- and I have been trying to tell people for a long time, with the constant, ongoing theme and silver lining that connects all of my albums, just through the album titles alone.
My first album is called "The Coming" that I released in 1996, second solo, "When Disaster Strikes" in '97, third solo album, "Extinction Level Event," which was the 22-year anniversary, yesterday, December 15, fourth solo album, "Anarchy," fifth solo album, "Genesis," sixth solo album, "It Ain't Safe No More," seventh solo album, "The Big Bang."
So, it's like, I have been trying to just add these different chapters to the same book. And we're here now with "Extinction Level Event 2," which took me 11 years to record.
And, interestingly, I didn't actually plan on releasing this record this year intentionally. Like, I actually was trying to release this album two or three different times years before October 30, 2020.
But, sometimes, when something greater than your clock is working, that's when it kind of feels like it's a divine thing happening. And...
MELBER: Well, let me -- I will jump in, Busta, to say, that's fascinating, because music hits us different ways.
BUSTA RHYMES: Yes.
MELBER: I'm listening to that album this year, before I knew you were coming on, thinking, this is very now.
I mean, when you have the quotes of Thomas Jefferson, I tremble what will happen when justice is done to the Americans who have oppressed, and thinking about BLM this year, longstanding issues, it felt very now.
BUSTA RHYMES: Yes, well, a lot of the subject matter in the album isn't just now. It's been ongoing since the beginning of this country's inception, especially when it comes to the disproportionate injustice that's been done to black and brown people.
So, it's not a new problem. So, it's not a new subject matter.
But, in reference -- in reference to how it relates in direct correlation of what's going on right now is certain things that I wrote as I got closer to turning in the album that are speaking to the actual moments that are literally happening (AUDIO GAP) this music is actually being shared with the world.
So, the protesting, and the corona, and the black and brown injustice...
MELBER: Yes.
BUSTA RHYMES: ... all of that is still coming in fresh. It's actually resonating in a new way now...
MELBER: Yes, I have got...
BUSTA RHYMES: ... as at any other time in my whole career.
MELBER: Now, I got one minute to Joy Reid.
I got to ask you, why was it important to you to confront Donald Trump, as you called him, Agent Orange, in 2017?
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Do you feel America has rejected him, or that there's still a lot of support for him? How do you view November?
BUSTA RHYMES: I think that, in 2017, I just really couldn't wrap my head around so many things that was just happening on his watch in a way that I have never experienced, seen, heard or couldn't even possibly fathom in my lifetime from any politician as blatantly or as flagrantly as it was happening with him.
Don't get me wrong, there's been plenty of politicians and presidents before him that's just a lot more amazing at describing their -- at disclosing their flagrant political corruption.
But he is not necessarily that type of politician, because he's not really a politician. He just became a president without any political history.
And I think to be doing the things that he was doing at that time, and particularly when we performed at the Grammys with Tribe on 2000 -- in 2017, with the travel bans that he was doing...
MELBER: Right.
BUSTA RHYMES: ... and the way he was focusing on the people of Islam, and the way he was -- just it was resonating in a very strange way.
And it was -- it was -- it felt personal. Now...
MELBER: Yes.
Now, I got to pass -- now I got to pass the mic to Joy Reid, because I'm out of time.
Busta Rhymes, though, I hope you will come back on THE BEAT, because we got more to discuss, sir.
BUSTA RHYMES: oh, absolutely.
And, everybody, please dive into that "Extinction Level Event 2: The Wrath of God," so you can see and understand a little more what me and Ari was going to get into.
I will see you again soon, Ari.
MELBER: There you go, 100 percent.
BUSTA RHYMES: Have a great holiday.
MELBER: Thank you, Busta Rhymes.
"THE REIDOUT" starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.END
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