Summary:
New lawsuits target election lies from Trump allies. Congresswoman Karen Bass speaks out. How can Americans prepare for natural disasters? President Obama speaks out on race.
Transcript:
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: “THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER” starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you so much.
Welcome to THE BEAT. I am Ari Melber.
And, tonight, we`re tracking the demands for accountability and the process for getting it, Congress probing not only the MAGA insurrection, but the wider evidence of mounting hate in America, from the Auschwitz shirts, the Confederate Flags displayed on January 6, to a growing white supremacist threat that, at times, has been minimized for political reasons, which House Judiciary Committee members probed -- you see here -- at a hearing today, officials stating that most ideologically motivated killings are now tied to far right extremists, like white supremacists, and recounting the warning signs that were there before the insurrection.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The threat of white nationalist violence has been weaponized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 2016 election of President Donald Trump gave them a tribal chieftain they can all rally behind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI choose not to prioritize the investigation and prosecution of white supremacists and far right violence. The failure to prepare for the January 6 attack on the Capitol is an indictment of the counterterrorism intelligence enterprise built since 9/11.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could see future attacks that make the Oklahoma City bombing pale in comparison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: You can see the intelligence experts there Zooming in, like you might for any other pandemic era discussion, but it was, of course, deadly serious, as they tried to implore the Congress to really take this all the way, to do what past administrations sometimes haven`t.
For their part, Republicans used their time today to divert from that topic to periods when racial justice protests last year involved some reported looting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANDY BIGGS (R-AZ): Antifa laid siege to some of our cities much of last year.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Violence that took place across our country in major urban areas throughout the summer of last year. Democrats looked the other way. Some encouraged the violence.
BIGGS: Left-wing domestic terrorism exists.
JORDAN: Violence, whether in Washington, D.C., or Portland, Oregon, or any other place in this country, should be condemned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So, that was one angle from some politicians.
But even as they try to divert the focus away from the stated topic, it was actually a law enforcement witness this week, former Capitol Police Chief Steven Sund, who has emphasized a point that needs to be understood during this series of accountability hearings.
He said what we saw on January 6, to him, was the worst attack he has ever seen in his career.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN SUND, FORMER CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: The events I witnessed on January 6 was the worst attack on law enforcement and our democracy that Iowa seen in my entire career. These criminals came prepared for war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That is -- that`s from one of the other hearings this week about that very day, the former chief saying he viewed the MAGA rioters as being on a -- quote -- "warpath," basically out for blood.
Multiple officials also recounting that police were overwhelmed by the armed insurrectionists breaking into that building with what they called a battle plan.
This is an important story about accountability and what Congress is doing.
And I want to get right to it with Congresswoman Karen Bass of California. She chairs the Judiciary Subcommittee on Terror and Homeland Security. We`re also joined by Pulitzer Prize winner Gene Robinson.
Congresswoman, there is more than one hearing, as I mentioned. What do you see as the purpose and the accomplishments thus far of this set of investigative hearings?
REP. KAREN BASS (D-CA): Well, first of all, in terms of our subcommittee hearing today, one of the goals is, is to begin to entertain legislation to address domestic terrorism.
I am concerned about that, however, because I think, with the best of all intentions, I am concerned that we pass laws on domestic terrorism and then they get enforced on African-American activists, just like over the last few years, we were fighting the FBI`s categorization of black identity extremists, which I don`t even believe exist.
But what you saw in the hearing, though, is that you saw my colleagues on the other side of the aisle just outright lie. How you could make a comparison to rioting to the attempted overthrow of the government is just absolutely no comparison.
And so because, for the last four years, we had a liar in chief who has essentially normalized lying, I`m now seeing my Republican colleagues essentially adopt that behavior as well. They always did to a little extent, but now the wholesale mischaracterization of what happened on January 6 is extremely dangerous, because, in the last four years, white supremacist organizations have mushroomed.
And if we don`t get a handle on it, I agree with Malcolm Nance, more to come is going to be much worse.
MELBER: Yes.
And bringing Gene in, we`re discussing facts that have been under assault and hate. And when you have those two things together, it`s a real problem.
Jon Stewart used to joke about reality having a well-known liberal bias, and there are larger pockets of the country that, when they hear certain facts, like what I just mentioned officials saying what the threat is, right, there was a time when there was a larger foreign threat related to ISIS and al Qaeda terrorists. That was a larger threat.
But, right now, they hear that, oh, white supremacists and other white hate groups are the threat, and they feel, wrongly, like that that`s a bias, when, indeed, it`s the reality.
And for that point, Gene, and your analysis, we did want to show something we have put together briefly that will be familiar to the congresswoman as well, which is every living FBI director speaking to this point regardless of party. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: Much of our history is not pretty. Law enforcement enforced the status quo, a status quo that was often brutally unfair to various groups.
ROBERT MUELLER, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: Domestic terrorism is also an important an issue as the international terrorism, whether it be white supremacists, militia extremists, sovereign citizen extremists.
CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: A huge chunk of those domestic terrorism investigations involve racially motivated violent extremists fueled by some kind of white supremacy.
And I would say the most lethal activity over the last few years has been committed by those type of attackers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Gene, all violent hate is wrong, but there are FBI directors emphasizing the larger problem with violent hate in the United States today is from white thugs, killers, terrorists.
EUGENE ROBINSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that`s just a fact.
And -- but you see the developing Republican narrative. I know you will be shocked at this, but they seem to be ready to try to gaslight the nation into believing that what happened at the Capitol was actually equivalent to what happened last summer and nothing all that special.
They seem to want to ignore the fact that it was, in fact, in many ways an attempted coup. It was an attempt to overthrow the government, to stop a government`s functioning, and the orderly transfer of power.
It`s a very serious thing. They`re ignoring the fact that these people came prepared for war, prepared for combat and battle, and that they are organized in groups that have been around for a long time.
And, as Merrick Garland said at his hearing, you can draw the line straight back from what happened at the Capitol to the Oklahoma City bombing. You can draw the line right back from there to the birth of the Ku Klux Klan after Reconstruction.
It`s there. It`s happening. It`s the truth. But they`re going try to obscure the truth with the fog of lies.
MELBER: Yes.
And, Congresswoman, there are surely leaders in government, yourself, Maxine Waters, who we have discussed this with before, who have been sounding the alarm about many of these issues, including the racial disparities, for a long time.
We also have covered the fact that other leaders, not exclusively, but often black leaders in America, have been warning about this outside of politics for a long time, and recounting stories and documenting what`s happening in their community.
Dave Chappelle is known to many for many things, but he`s got a brand-new series that I guess you could call it a comedy piece, but, boy, is it serious at times.
I want to play a little bit of it for your reaction, because it`s his reaction, his take on January 6. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: I`m from Washington, D.C. A lot of my friends growing up are Capitol Hill police officers. I say: "What did you do that day?"
"What did we do? We were kicking cracker downs the steps like mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) "300." They carried a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Confederate Flag through the Rotunda. The Confederate Army didn`t even do that."
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) went very far.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He is a Washingtonian. He is upset to the degree that some of it we, of course, can`t air on a family broadcast. But yet that raw emotion is what we heard from other officers and other people around the country.
I`m just curious your reaction.
BASS: Well, absolutely the same. I mean, the raw emotion, the anger, the idea that this would actually take place and people were allowed to run amok here, and we were not prepared.
And the idea that the FBI sent notification, but the Capitol Police didn`t get it, well, why the heck didn`t they pick up the phone when someone didn`t respond to their e-mail? It is just absolutely inexcusable.
I know that Malcolm Nance said that this was known for a long time. As a matter of fact, he was writing a book, and he waited until after January 6 to finish the book, because he was waiting to see what was going to happen. So, this was widely known.
It`s just inexcusable. And if you want to talk about white racial terror, you have to go back many, many, many years, as a matter of fact, a couple hundred years. So, this kind of white supremacist behavior is nothing new in our communities.
And what I am hoping now, since it was on the display for the world to see, is that maybe we will finally begin to address this problem.
MELBER: Yes.
Congresswoman, I want to thank you for joining us.
Gene, I have one more political item for you.
Congresswoman, thank you on a busy day.
BASS: Thank you.
MELBER: Gene, take a look at this moment between these two Republican leaders today, a real fissure. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Do you believe President Trump should be speaking or former President Trump should be speaking at CPAC this weekend?
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Yes, he should.
QUESTION: Congresswoman Cheney?
REP. LIZ CHENEY (D-WY): That`s up to CPAC.
I have been clear in my views about President Trump and the extent to which, following January 6, I don`t believe that he should be playing a role in the future of the party or the country.
MCCARTHY: On that high note, thank you all very much.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: Quite a fissure.
Gene?
ROBINSON: Yes, on that high note.
There, you see -- there you have today`s Republican Party. That`s the situation right now. And, sadly, Liz Cheney is in the minority in the Republican Party on this issue of the continued involvement of Donald Trump, the continued leadership and domination by Donald Trump.
And so we`re going see this play out for -- indefinitely, for some time. It is ridiculous. The party has a chance or had a chance to rid itself of this scourge and did not take that chance. And so now they`re stuck with this fissure, this division going forward, at least until the next election, probably until the next two or three.
MELBER: Yes, it was a striking moment, an almost complete personification of those wings, as you say, the Cheney wing smaller, as they literally divert out of the leadership press conference.
(LAUGHTER) We want to get that in as well.
MELBER: Gene Robinson, always good to have you, sir.
ROBINSON: Good to be here, Ari.
MELBER: Thank you.
We have our shortest break coming up. Stay with us.
On the program tonight, why more people are preparing for the end of the world.
Plus, President Obama`s revelation about punching someone over a racist word.
And next: how the law is catching up with the big lie. My report -- when we`re back in just 30 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Congress has been bearing down on the danger of election lies, many of which grew from coverage online and on TV.
Now, apart from what we were just covering earlier in the program tonight, Congress also held a whole different hearing today on this kind of propaganda and its media amplification.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We also saw the rise of the stop the steal movement fomented by former President Trump and propagated by members of the media.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was months of disinformation about the presidential election results that helped flame that attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rampant disinformation and the conspiracy theories that we witnessed to overturn the election results led to the insurrection on the United States Capitol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: You have that big lie. We`re all familiar with it. Donald Trump pushed it to the end.
But it also had many different ingredients, many smaller lies throughout. And that included a very pernicious and false series of attacks on voting machines themselves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all went in and vote using hardware. The hardware that we voted on was called Dominion.
We have had countless efforts and everybody has shown there is irrefutable proof of voter fraud.
LOU DOBBS, FOX BUSINESS NEWS: Dominion Voting Systems used in 28 states across the country, including battleground states.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You infiltrated an Antifa conference this past September and accidentally came upon a top Dominion Voting Systems executive.
MICHAEL LINDELL, CEO, MYPILLOW: Because we have all the election problem with these Dominion machines.
Because everything is on the line here. Everything is on the line, our freedoms, my American dream that I have lived, everybody`s American dream. You can`t have the biggest crime in history, just let it go, and nobody is doing anything about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Much of that was false, provably so, rejected by fact-checkers and courts alike.
And some of Trump`s allies were mocked for it, like MyPillow CEO Mike Lindell getting roasted on "SNL."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN JOST, ACTOR: So, Mike, you were just banned from Twitter for spreading all this voter fraud lies that inspired the insurrectionists.
BECK BENNETT, ACTOR: Well, hold on there, bucko. I just suggested the military overthrow the government. And, look, if that`s not democracy, I don`t know what is.
JOST: Yes, I think you might just not know what it is.
(LAUGHTER)
BENNETT: Wow. My pillow said Dominion overran the voting machine algorithms.
JOST: What?
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Yes. He might not know what it is.
And while some of the claims about voting machines were laughable, this problem is also serious, so much so that Dominion reached out to those very critics at the time, warning that Dominion employees were getting death threats because of the lies.
But Lindell was not concerned about that or the fact that his claims were false, with judges rejecting Trump cases based on those and other election objections. Instead, he was defiant.
Lindell said in January: "Dominion threatened to sue me, and I said, bring it on, but they won`t do it. And you know why they won`t do it? Because they know all the evidence will come out."
They won`t do it. Well, count that up as another Lindell claim that`s proven to be completely false, because the news now is, Dominion is suing him. It`s investing its money and energy in this fight, because they say it`s important to not only to defend their business, but to protect the truth.
It`s part of Dominion`s wider legal strategy, with lawsuit against Trump allies like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell. And those are political lawyers who may have crossed lines, while this MyPillow suit is especially interesting, because it uses the legal process and pressure to lift the lid further on these propaganda efforts.
We all know about Giuliani`s many lies for Donald Trump. And as those 2020 legal losses piled up, we all watched his increasingly desperate and at times downright baroque, flailing efforts.
But less may be known about the evolving business of this propaganda, with new outlets online and on air that are not only to the right of FOX News, but maybe even shouldn`t be categorized on any ideological spectrum, according to these legal challenges, because the larger complaint is, they just lie.
Newsmax has seen its audience not only double or triple. No, it`s actually -- we checked -- more than quadrupled in the first month after the election, while other sites which are not traditionally journalistic, say, OAN, its video programming, or Gateway Pundit, they saw their traffic double in 2020.
Now, to be clear, there may be plenty of free speech and legal defensible opinion from those outlets as well. But there`s mounting legal pressure here on where the big lie becomes big business.
Now, the traditional press has plenty of shortcomings. I bet you can think of some. We discussed some. But real journalistic outlets won`t run with a completely false story just for traffic or ratings. They don`t report Trump won, when he lost. But that`s exactly what some places were suggesting for weeks after the election.
And as for the business part, this brings us into the juicy details in the new Dominion lawsuit, which argues that Mike Lindell is not some businessman dabbling in MAGA politics as his side hobby, but, rather, it argues that profiting off false stories online, like these other groups, his whole business model has increasingly relied on exploiting the political energy to make money, that he is just another grifter.
Dominion`s filing asserts he -- quote -- "sells the lie to this day, because the lie sells pillows."
And they offer evidence in this new suit that MyPillow uses a -- quote -- "defamatory marketing campaign" to sell pillows to perhaps even unsuspecting MAGA fans with explicit promotional codes like QAnon.
Does it work? Is this just some wild weird idea run amok? Well, again, we`re learning now things because of this suit that Mr. Lindell so defiantly said would never happen. The suit asserts in its evidence that those campaigns I just told you about, type in QAnon, actually grew sales by up to 40 percent, that Lindell is benefiting in profits from the lies and a circle of influence where Trump, they say, will also endorse any future political campaign by Lindell.
Now, for their part, these defendants, Lindell, Giuliani and others, have stressed that they`re expressing their free speech rights and that they have them, that they have, in a sense, the right to be wrong.
Now, we`re walking through this tonight amidst these other hearings and this call for accountability because election lies, when they are false, provably so, demonstrably, knowingly false, they don`t just raise the issues of libel and defamation.
As we see in what we`re living through, they raise questions of whether we`re going to be able to hold on to a democracy when the very facts of our election results are put into tremendous doubt.
It`s an important story, and I`m thrilled to tell you we`re going get into all of this live with "New York Times" legal writer Emily Bazelon right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Welcome back to THE BEAT. I`m joined by Emily Bazelon, staff writer from "The New York Times Magazine."
Good to see you.
EMILY BAZELON, "THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE": Thanks.
MELBER: Emily, we`re covering the backlash to a lot of what happened on January 6 and a lot of the propaganda, specifically lawsuits over election lies.
There`s layers. But what do you think of the Dominion argument that some of this is really bad faith grifting?
BAZELON: Well, I think that Dominion has a problem, in the sense that they -- Mike Lindell -- sorry -- three, two, one. Let me start over.
I think that Mike Lindell has a problem, in that...
MELBER: Take your time.
(LAUGHTER)
BAZELON: Thank you. We`re trying to get the facts right tonight.
I think that Lindell and MyPillow have a problem, because they have been repeating facts about Dominion, which Dominion put them on notice were false. And we all have the right to make mistakes. You go on the air, you screw something up.
MELBER: Sure.
BAZELON: But you don`t have to lie over and over again, once you know that something`s not true. And particularly if you`re damaging the reputation of a company or an individual, that`s when you start to get into the terrain of defamation.
And that`s what this suit is about. It`s really hard to win a defamation suit in the United States. We have a high barrier for that, because we want to give people a lot of freedom of speech, a lot of right to make mistakes.
But this knowing and repeated spreading of the lie about a company that damaged their business, that`s a classic defamation suit.
MELBER: Yes.
And you have a lot of echoing that`s going on, which is outside of what we might call the conventional civic space. It has blurred lines of entities that are sort of media. Or some of them say, hey, we`re a blog, we`re not doing journalistic fact-checking.
And then you have the QAnon code I mentioned. You`re typing in QAnon to get a pillow discount. And so it does echo and blur this in a way where the unsuspecting citizen viewer or consumer might think they`re getting something that they`re not, might think they`re getting news, when they`re not,
I want to play a little bit of Tucker Carlson on all this. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS: It`s worth finding out where the public is getting all this false information, this disinformation, as we will call it. So we checked.
We spent all day trying to locate the famous QAnon, which, in the end, we learned is not even a Web site. If it`s out there, we could not find it. Then we checked Marjorie Taylor Greene`s Twitter feed, because we have heard she traffics in disinformation. CNN told us, but nothing there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: This is sort of a trolling question approach to try to give comfort to these conspiracy theories, which are on the Internet, which are on chat rooms, which are on Parler, which are on apps. And then some of them, aspects of them, get repeated, as we just documented in the last segment.
Do you think that this is primarily a problem of politics, or business, or both?
BAZELON: Well, I think that it is odd for Tucker Carlson to say that, because he can`t find a Web site called QAnon, or a person called QAnon, that there is no such thing as this dangerous, violent conspiracy theory that lots of people have been talking about, joining, taking part in online.
There is, like, no question that this conspiracy theory has been growing. In terms of whether this is politics or business, I mean, I think, for people who want the support of QAnon backers, and who are willing to join up with them, and really welcoming them into the Republic Party, and there are some Republicans like that, this is about politics.
It`s about a really loyal base. It`s about playing to people who are -- you want as your supporters.
You know, for someone like Mike Lindell at MyPillow, who is using QAnon as a promotional code, yes, that starts to be about business. And it`s really interesting that his use of that code actually really helped to increase sales at MyPillow.
I would not have necessarily known that was going to happen, but he seems to have a knack for realizing the business potential here.
MELBER: Yes, that`s a fascinating aspect of it. And it helps us understand some of what might be afoot, even amidst the political backdrop where, as you say, people are out there trying to find their voters.
Emily Bazelon, always good to see you.
BAZELON: Thanks so much for having me.
MELBER: Absolutely.
Coming up, I want to tell you we have something very special that involves this:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN FREEMAN, ACTOR: The comets are still headed for Earth.
JAKE GYLLENHAAL, ACTOR: Come on! Come on! Come on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: If it feels like we face more disasters than ever, whether you`re talking about movies or real life, it`s because, increasingly, we do.
So, up next, we have one of our very special reports that we want to share with you about the threats and how to prepare.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEMAN: The comets are still headed for Earth.
GYLLENHAAL: Come on! Come on! Come on!
JUDE LAW, ACTOR: On day one, there were two people, and then four, and then 16. In three months, it`s a billion. That`s where we`re headed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: A natural disaster that upends life as we know it, a virus that spreads faster than humans can hope to contain it, these apocalyptic scenarios may feel like a feature of hyperbolic movie plots, not regular life.
But, these days, sudden and existential threats are increasingly part of our interconnected world. Human life on Earth has always been fragile, but the Earth is getting hotter than ever. There`s more evidence of concern about natural disasters, from the recent deadly storms in Texas, to the dangerously extreme weather patterns we see, to wildfires, to the coronavirus pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: In California, an epic battle against fire and wind.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Millions of Texans do not have safe drinking water.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Growing and severe shortages of critical medical supplies.
DON LEMON, CNN: They had no heat. They`re running out of food, water, and gas.
HOLT: Flames threatening homes, forcing the evacuation of almost 100,000 people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The U.S. now leading the world in coronavirus cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: As individuals, we can`t prevent most of these disasters. We know that.
We can try to prepare for some of them. Texas saw last-minute runs on supermarkets, stoking shortages of food and water, a situation that compounds the original problems.
And while Texas storms and COVID don`t have much in common, that rush to get supplies, some necessary, some not, the barren shelves, echoes early responses to this pandemic, with those long lines for food and supplies and toilet paper. And some buying reflected preparation. Other buying reflected a panic or hoarding, which, of course, can hurt others who are trying to prepare logically.
Now, these shocks to the system force us to consider some tangible questions these days. How long can you survive in your home without new purchases of food? What`s your plan if the water shuts off and you have to stay home for safety?
In a security emergency, how can you protect your home from entry? And what is your plan if people breach your home in an emergency looking to harm you or your family?
These aren`t the kind of questions that most people like to ponder. They do feel more relevant these days. All of this is also the preoccupation of one group of people, people who think about and actively prep for some of the worst possible disasters.
We`re speaking, of course, about doomsday preppers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If survival is the goal, it`s into the spider hole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m preparing for an electromagnetic pulse that will disable the transportation system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have weapons for every individual in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to survive a genocidal siege by building a tunnel that will lead my family to safety.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the economy fails, anybody that could find the trail could be a potential threat. I need to be able to hide my family, and that`s why I`m building an invisible tree house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Some of this looks extreme, even deliberately, entertainingly so, but some preppers are pretty practical, and they have straightforward reasons for their approach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like getting car insurance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I grew up in hurricane country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prepper is what I am. I am preparing for disaster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All we can do is help the person next to us and our neighbors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So, there is dramatization. The extreme examples do get more attention.
But this approach, to be clear, is not reserved to a small group of alarmists.
One out of five Americans have tended to say they spend their own money preparing for disasters. That`s as of 2019. But it`s more than doubled to almost half of Americans since the pandemic.
And that`s in line with what the federal government recommends, which is having at least 72 hours worth of food, water and basic supplies, if you were stranded at home.
Now, some preparation is prudent, given unavoidable disasters like a pandemic. Let`s be clear, there`s also other trends at work. Despite the wealth of the United States, despite its mighty military, our government`s faltered in several big disasters, from the Bush administration`s epic failure after Katrina, to the foreseeable breakdown we have been covering in Texas from letting private corporations put their own profits above basic disaster prep and winterizing.
There are also the structural problems with America`s aging infrastructure and a food supply chain that can leave a city going hungry within as soon as four days if there are shutdowns.
There is also America`s broader libertarian streak towards the government, which can feed attacks and basically stem political investments that might make the government more effective at this stuff.
Now, just as America is a richer country than, say, Germany, its approach to public health care and government prep have left it with more than double the rate of COVID deaths compared to that country.
And disaster preparedness experts stress, this American problem stretches across different disaster events.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The U.S. is one of the top five countries in the world in terms of the number and severity of disaster events. FEMA is getting stretched, really stretched. And now they have said, be prepared to be on your own for 72 hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Be prepared to be on your own. The government`s emergency advice is, prep to be on your own.
So, people are prepping, which makes sense, when FEMA is basically sounding a little bit like they`re quoting the Grateful Dead`s Bob Weir, who is saying history`s page will be neatly carved in stone. The future is here. We are it. We are on our own, on our own, on our own. There is a fear down here we can`t forget. Hasn`t got a name just yet.
Weir may have been talking about the fear and pain on a planet that can look so peaceful from afar and what we as people do with fear. This is deep stuff. Too much fear can be debilitating. Too little can be dangerous to ourselves.
Take a look back, say, at 2012. Americans weren`t thinking about pandemics. The big health care news was the Supreme Court upholding Obamacare, not COVID. People were debating a presidential election. There was a scandal at Penn State.
And amidst all that in 2012, let me tell you what Donna Nash was doing. She was afraid of something else, a pandemic. Specifically, she was concerned a flu-like pandemic would spread easily, the government couldn`t curb it, and that initially the best safety measures would be what individual people did on their own, getting masks, sanitizing, not anything that might happen later at a policy level.
And she was right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONNA NASH, DOOMSDAY PREPPER: I am most afraid of the flu because it`s so common. If someone on one side of the country had the disease, and they flew across the country, by the time they get to the other side, people are taking it home, they`re taking it to work.
In my kits, I have isolation gowns, antiviral tissues, exam gloves, N95 masks. My worst fear is that I would somehow contract the pandemic.
We have been outside, so let`s make sure that we are clean, OK?
And bring it home to my family, and then have one of my family members die.
When the pandemic comes, those who are prepared will survive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Donna Nash was prepared. We checked in with her this week, and she stands by her work. She passed on joining us tonight.
Like most things, prepping operates on a spectrum, from prudent planning, to rigorous emergency preparation, to more extreme plots to go and get completely off the grid.
But in a world of mounting disaster and these recurring government breakdowns, it is worth, asking what do we want to be prepared for?
We turn to two special guests.
Max Brooks spent years studying some worst-case scenario events. He is the author of the acclaimed "World War Z" about a fictional deadly pandemic. He has lectured at the Naval War College and at the U.S. Army`s nuclear response facilities. General Barry McCaffrey is the retired four-star general, who, among other roles, was director of strategic plans and policy for the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Good to have you both here.
General, we just went through the whole spectrum. Your thoughts from a real military level precision about what people can do on their own, what they should do, and what they probably shouldn`t try.
GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY (RET.), NBC MILITARY ANALYST: Well, look, I always tell people, the good news is, the end of the world only happens once.
And you ought to take it in that context.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAFFREY: By the way, my son and I are absolutely, with our families, prepared to survive two weeks on our own. Seattle, we`re all waiting for Richter scale 9 Armageddon to hit us. It will happen sometime in the next 300 years.
You simply have to check off the blocks of water, nutrition, first aid, trauma measures, security. And people ought to do that. I always admired the LDS Mormon notion of individual families being prepared to survive.
But I think your guest, who wrote the book, probably has a bigger concept that, if you want to survive, you got to have an organization. You have to have a community that is prepared. There need to be block captains. The fire department is absolutely essential. The emergency medical system, is it on generators? Have you retrofitted buildings? Do you know how an evacuation scheme works?
So, if the community is organized, and you personally can go 72 hours to two weeks, this is a gift to your family and your community. And Americans -- one of my principle problems with U.S. combat soldiers is, it`s very tough to scare an American and have them stay scared.
It`s an attribute that I do have. So, I think community leadership, political leadership, has to not just have rehearsals of FEMA and state emergency associations. They need to have community-wide planning, rehearsals and investment.
MELBER: Max?
MAX BROOKS, AUTHOR, "WORLD WAR Z": I couldn`t agree more.
I think the general has hit the nail on the head. I think everyone should have 72 hours` worth of emergency supplies for whatever geographic disaster you are facing. But as a long-term way of life, retreating from the community actually causes the very disaster that you`re trying to prevent.
You just saw clips of people who are building invisible tree houses and tunnels. That time would be much better spent running for city council and making sure that your local emergency services are up to snuff.
You know, Ari, since World War I, our grandparents invested very heavily in creating an emergency network of infrastructure, running water, vaccines, of the electric grid, everything that kept us all safe and alive for generations.
Since the Cold War, we have dismantled that emergency network, in the name of efficiency. And you see that especially when it comes to emergency supplies. FEMA used to be able to pull on warehouses all around the country. And now the model is that they have to draw from the big box stores at the 11th hour.
But guess what? Those big box stores, they don`t have warehouses either, because it`s not efficient. So, what we need to do, instead of digging spider holes and hiding under the bed with beans, bandages and bullets, is understand that our best survival tools is the knowledge of the systems that keep us alive, and use our ballots and our taxes to keep that network operating.
MELBER: But, Max, that`s a little long-term.
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: I think it`s a great point. And the general kind of teed it up. But that also is long-term change.
And what we saw in Texas, whether you call it doomsday prepping or just having more than 72 hours, showed that the breakdown of what you`re calling that preparation and political planning meant that you would be wiser to assume the worst at the local level, right, Max? And, also, what did you think about Donna Nash and her approach to pandemics?
BROOKS: Well, I think, when we`re talking about pandemics, that is a long- term solution.
And you don`t want to bunker down with emergency supplies, because the best way to stop a pandemic is to invest in good public health, because, Ari, the general will agree with me on this. There is a much bigger picture that we`re facing now, which is national security.
And since Desert Storm, our enemies have been investing in asymmetric warfare. What I mean is, they have been learning how to leapfrog right over the military and hit the home front with economic warfare, information warfare, biowarfare and cyberwarfare.
And you can`t tell me that there are some very smart people in Beijing and Tehran, in Moscow who are not taking very careful notes about what just happened in Texas. So, we need to get back to the notion our grandparents had that public health and infrastructure also keep us safe, as well as healthy.
MELBER: Well, General, you could see why a dystopian novelist might get along with some of your Joint Chiefs war planner friends, because he`s got a dark mind for hopefully the right security solution.
I want to play a little bit of the old days, since you kind of both brought it up. We pulled this up, civil defense mobilization, and what the PSAs used to look like. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, folks, I`m glad you can come down to see my fallout shelter. Just finished painting it last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looks like a nice job, Wal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We figure we`d rather be prepared than sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gee, isn`t this nice?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I can certainly live in here very comfortably for at least two weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: General, it sounds like you both think that those days are over, for good reason, because you`re not going live through that nuclear winter.
MCCAFFREY: Oh, I don`t think they`re over at all, by the way.
When you start looking at the potential nonstate actor hostile threats, biowarfare threshold entry is extremely low. We have got high school kids doing gene splicing and using...
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Let me interject, only to correct my question, General.
But let me ask you -- I`m sorry. What I mean, though, is, should people be all trying to have bunkers in their house for those threats?
MCCAFFREY: Oh, no.
But, again, the nuclear threat with dirty bombs to go to a dozen hospitals and pick up fissile materials and contaminate a city center, these are all active possibilities.
The individual can`t protect himself. This is where you need organizational skills. And, by and large, I think we have attenuated public health to almost nonexistence. FEMA -- domestic law enforcement, by the way, is extremely thin on the ground, so that, when you have a major problem, the only organization that has the muscle to move large events are the 2-point million men and women of the armed forces.
So, I think we haven`t thought through it, and it`s not just extreme weather events and earthquakes, but also terrorism, emerging bio-threats. We have to think through this as a society more than we have.
And, unfortunately, it requires investment. You simply can`t make it up once you have got the situation ongoing. It`s going to get worse, I think, over time, particularly the weather events.
MELBER: Yes.
BROOKS: You know, if I can just jump in...
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: All really -- no, I -- well, unfortunately, I have got to get a break and then get to Joy. But we did put aside a lot of time for doomsday.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: So, Max, I hope to have you back, because you have written so thoughtfully about this.
General McCaffrey, always good to have you.
And, look, I can imagine the number of people getting ready for dinner on the East Coast who are really glad we went this deep on this topic, gentlemen.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAFFREY: Good to be with you.
MELBER: Onward.
Thanks to both of you.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: When we come back: President Obama tells Bruce Springsteen why he punched someone in the face.
That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Sometimes, it seems like everyone has a podcast, and that now includes former President Obama with Bruce Springsteen. They have a new podcast called "Renegades: Born in the USA."
The icons sit together, and they converse about all sorts of things.
The idea, like so many personal podcasts, is to get blunt. They have come to know each other over the years through campaigning. And they bluntly discuss racism in a new episode, the former president making some news by revealing an altercation that he had back in school.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I had a friend. We played basketball together.
And, one time, we got in a fight. And he called me a coon. I popped him in the face and broke his nose. And we were in the locker room.
BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, MUSICIAN: Well done.
OBAMA: And, suddenly, blood is pouring down. And it was just reactive.
I just...
SPRINGSTEEN: Yes.
OBAMA: I said, "What?" And I popped him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: You can see what personal conversations is between people. It`s not the kind of thing that Barack Obama brought up that we recall when he was running for office.
But he also went on to address how these types of racial slurs contribute to larger problems.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OBAMA: What it comes down to is an assertion of status over the other.
And that basic psychology that then gets institutionalized is used to justify dehumanizing somebody.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MELBER: Dehumanizing, a man who led this nation, the leader of the free world, recalling back to how he felt he humanized, so that we all might learn something from this.
Count it up as an interesting piece of the podcast. We`re going to keep an eye on it.
We will be right back with one more thing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Thanks for spending some time with THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER.
"THE REIDOUT" starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END