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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, January 11, 2021

Guests: Sheila Jackson Lee, Chris Murphy, John Scott-Railton, Melissa Murray, Paul Fishman


The House is now planning to vote on President Trump's impeachment for the second time on Wednesday. Rudy Giuliani asks Senator Tuberville to slow the electoral count in the wake of the insurrection on the U.S. Capitol. The FBI warns of armed protest being planned at all 50 state capitols. Capitol Hill insurrectionists are being arrested after being identified online. A Democratic congresswoman tested positive for COVID after being isolated with maskless Republicans during the Capitol riot.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Well, indeed, and our refusal to talk about white people as terrorists and not willing to cross that line and have that conversation, but we did it tonight. Kathleen Belew, Nikole Hannah-Jones, thank you both so much. That is tonight's REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to walk down to the Capitol.

HAYES: The second impeachment of Donald J. Trump, this time for incitement of insurrection.

AMERICAN CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.

HAYES: Tonight, the desperate push to secure the country, as the FBI warns of new violence and D.C. plans the inauguration. Plus, stunning new scenes of brutality inspired by the president, the digital detective work to find and arrest the perpetrators, the constitutional tool to prevent Trump conspirators from holding office. And the President's lawyer caught trying to steal the election after the Capitol siege.

RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: We need you, our Republican friends to try to just slow it down.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York, I'm Chris Hayes. The President is likely to be impeached again the second time. The House now planning to vote on Wednesday night and that has never happened before in this nation's long history. And the urgency of removing Donald J. Trump from office, sanctioning him and removing him from public life gets more apparent by the hour as the full weight of what transpired last week sinks in.

With each day that goes by, we learn more about the Capitol -- about the attack on the Capitol, the scale of the destruction, the violence and the existential threat it posed to our democracy. Five people are dead from that violence including 42-year-old Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick.

Another Capitol Police officer who was on duty at the Capitol on Wednesday died by suicide this weekend. A lawyer for the officer's family tells BuzzFeed News. His name was Howard Liebengood and he was 51 years old. It has been five days since the attack and there has still not been a single federal official briefing on what happened. Not one. Which means everyone is piecing it together through interviews and reporting and the copious amounts of footage recorded that day.

Now, I have to warn you, this next video is disturbing. It's another example of just how vicious and violent the mob was. Watch closely here at that arched doorway where the rioters drag out an officer defending the Capitol. They bend down and pull him down the stairs and they start beating him.

Keep an eye on the left side of your screen for the bearded man in a gray jacket who stands above the officer wielding the American flag. And he beats him with it repeatedly bringing it down on him, beating an officer with an American flag. Because there have been no official briefings about what happened on Wednesday, we don't know who that officer is or what condition he or she is now in or just how many incidents like this one captured here on camera there were amidst the mayhem and the violence sprawling in the Capitol Complex. We do know that the rioters came prepared for action, for this kind of action.

A Capitol Police officer who fought off the mob last week told BuzzFeed, "That was a heavily trained group of militia terrorists that attacked us. They had radios. We found them. They had to weigh communicators and earpieces. They had bear spray. They had flashbangs. This unsettling video shows a group of men in military-style gear wearing helmets and body armor, methodically making their way information up the Capitol steps.

ProPublica and PBS identify them as members of a far-right militia group called the Oathkeepers. We are learning more of the efforts to bring the writers who committed crimes to justice. The Secretary of the Army told the democratic congressman that at least 25 domestic terrorism cases have been opened as a result of the assault on the cabinet.

Officials are on further alert -- high alert for further unrest. The FBI issuing a bulletin warning of armed protests being planned at all 50 state capitols and the U.S. Capitol starting this week. They are also aware of a group planning to storm government offices in every state on the Inauguration Day.

The head of the National Guard said today that at least 10,000 troops will be deployed to Washington D.C. ahead of the inauguration, ahead of the peaceful transition of power. They will be in place by Saturday with another 5,000 possibly being requested from other states.

Now, apparently, fearing the President may incite further violence, a who's-who list of social media companies finally kicked him off their platforms. The President and his allies use those platforms to urge his supporters to commit insurrection against the United States.

The rioters planned the violence online in plain sight in forums. They spoke openly of hanging people they saw as traitors. This was a lynch mob, the ones that made it up to the Capitol.When they made it inside the Capitol, you can hear the rioters chanting, hang Mike Pence over and over.

At least someone in the crowd constructed what appears to be a functional gallows near the Capitol reflecting pool. This was no paper machete prop. Someone went to a lot of work here. They brought lumber. They built steps up to a platform, complete with a noose.

Friday night, we showed you this disturbing video from status quo taking it one entrance to the Capitol in which the violent mob crushes against police as they try to gain entrance. Later in that same video, the insurrectionists can be heard trying to convince Capitol Police to do their bidding, to join them in attacking members of Congress that they are convinced are traitors.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to arrest those (BLEEP).


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want to hurt you, guys.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you OK? Are you hungry? Are you OK?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take it off. Take it off.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close the door.


HAYES: Here's the thing. These people were one part of a broader effort engaged in by Donald Trump, the President of the United States, right-wing media, members of the United States House of Representatives and Senate all together to overthrow the democratically elected government of this country, the incoming one, flatly an act of sedition.

And as we try to digest this footage and think about what happened as everyone terrorized by that day tries to move on, or pick up the pieces, or figure out what happened, what is so horrifying is the fact that all of these people from Donald Trump at the very top down to the guy in that video with a gas mask on his head, they were all working towards the same end.

After an election in which more than 156 million Americans voted, a record, and seven million more people voted for Joe Biden than Donald Trump, and he got more than 270 electoral votes, making him the rightfully elected leader of the United States, all of those people from Donald Trump on down to the guy in the gas mask, they were all together trying to do the same thing. They were trying to install the defeated man as the head of our government against the will of the American people via any means necessary. That is the project in which all of them were engaged, including a lot of prominent Republicans and conservative activists. From Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk, who tweeted about sending 80 busloads of people to the Capitol on January 6th, and later deleted that tweet, to Texas Congressman Pete Sessions who tweeted on January 3rd about encouraging people from stop the steal to keep fighting and that he was looking forward to doing his duty on January 6th.

And a whole bunch of his colleagues like Congressman Andy Biggs and Paul Gosar of Arizona and Kevin Brady of Texas, and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and senators Ted Cruz, and Josh Hawley, and Rick Scott, and John Kennedy, every last one of them up to an including the President, and the people around him have engaged in the same plot in the open to seize power for the man who lost, the man that was repudiated by American voters in American democracy.

And for all the talk about 1776 and the Don't Tread On Me Gadsden flags, it is those folks who are on the side of tyranny. They err on the side of a would-be crown. They err on the side of might over people power. They wanted to cease power from you, from us as democratic citizens. They wanted a small group of congressmen to take it away. That is what the Republican Party has now associated itself with, or in large part has become.

Now, this country has been through trauma and disaster and war and civil war. And we have wrestled with treason and sedition, and those who would seek to destroy American democracy, especially, genuinely equitable, multiracial American democracy, we fought those battles. The threat posed by these people, frankly, is as serious as anything we have seen at least since then.

If there is not accountability for it, they will try again, and will have a better chance of succeeding. And if there is any doubt that all these pieces are all working together towards the same end, then keep in mind, the President wanted the mob to go to the Capitol. He told them to go there so they could intimidate Congress out of counting electoral votes for his opponent, so they can spook Mike Pence into stealing it for him.

And then after they storm the Capitol in this violent attack, after the beatings of the cops and came within minutes of possibly actually setting upon members of Congress themselves, and as they started to pick up the pieces with the blood still on the ground, this is what the President's lawyer Rudy Giuliani was up to.

This is Rudy Giuliani in a voicemail he left for Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama, one of the President's most stalwart supporters, telling him to do whatever he can to further delay the counting of electoral votes.


GIULIANI: Senator Tuberville, or I should say Coach Tuberville, this is Rudy Giuliani, the President's lawyer. I'm calling you because I want to discuss with you how they're trying to rush this hearing, and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislators to get more information to you. And I know they're reconvening at eight tonight, but the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow, ideally, until the end of tomorrow.


HAYES: Take a listen to think about what you just heard. The President's own lawyer -- this is after the seizure of the Capitol, after its overrun, after they're cowering in a secure room so they don't get torn to shreds by the lynch mob and they're reconvening to go do their constitutional duty, Rudy Giuliani, the President's lawyer, after all that is calling and he wants the Alabama senator to do whatever he can to pick up the baton from the mob. The mob did its job. It delayed things. Now, you use your position as a U.S. Senator to stop the peaceful transfer of power and a lawful recognition of the democratically elected president.

Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee of Texas has been at the forefront of discussions about impeaching the president both the first time and now. Remember, the House Judiciary Committee who just introduced her own impeachment resolution. And Congresswoman Jackson Lee joins me now.

Congresswoman, my understanding is there is -- there was a long call with the speaker today, three hours I believe, to talk about this week. What can you tell us about the sentiment of the caucus right now?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): One thing that we do know for sure that the President of the United States Chris is a clear and present danger to the United States of America and to the people of the United States. And while he has been fueling the fires of domestic terrorists, it is tragic that close to 4,000 people every day are dying of COVID-19, again, a dereliction of his duty. We realize that he must be removed immediately.

And as we come together on the impeachment resolutions and debated on this coming Wednesday, we will take a vote to remove this president by way of impeachment as quickly as we can. And let me just say this. I want to remind Americans of those senators, Republicans, who after we worked so hard, documented so much in the impeachment proceeding earlier in the last year, I heard individuals say I could not vote to convict because I truly believe he has learned a lesson.

What are they thinking now when six people are dead because of his provoking and stoking the fires of violence and domestic terrorism? Six people have died, including two of our precious Capitol Hill police officers.

HAYES: Where -- have you heard anything along the lines of contrition or self-reflection from Republicans in the House? I've seen a lot of Republicans fan out over the last few days, intent on changing the topic or just glossing over it. They are very focused on how many Twitter followers they have. As you said, as 3,000-plus Americans die every day as we put the pieces together on this violence that was beset upon the Capitol.

Is there anyone in the Republican Party talking about the accountability needed at this moment before we can talk about unity?

JACKSON LEE: You know, Chris, I was one of those in the gallery, of course. And having been in the Capitol during 9/11, I might just say that this was probably the most frightening because I think in 9/11, we got out as quickly as we could. In this instance, we were cowering as the -- not in shame and not because we were fearful so much that we couldn't function.

But we were told to bend as much as we could, because they were ramming the House and because of the bravery of plainclothes officers with guns drawn, they never penetrated the floor of the House of Representatives. I would think after we broke and went into an undisclosed place, and people had time to reflect, that we would hear more Republicans.

I have heard some, but I've not heard any today. And I hope that we will -- they will join us on Wednesday to vote for the impeachment resolution. That's the quiet reflection that we need. But you know what, Chris, we need more than quiet reflection. These are many of their constituents that are now planning to storm this seat of democracy, that sacred place again.

I'd like to hear some Republicans take into the public space, the public sphere, and be able to say, calm these individuals, seek their higher standing their affection for the flag, their affection for democracy, their understanding that this nation stands for justice for all and equality for all. That's what we need to hear in order to safeguard this country and in order to respond to more of the American people who, frankly, have been bombarding our e-mails our text by saying they are appalled, they're frightened.

They want this nation to be united, and they want this nation to have respect and dignity to be maintained for this place of democracy and for our desires to be utilized on the floor of the House and Senate. That's where we debate and show our disagreement, not with mobs and terrorists raiding through, tearing up precious items, and seeking to attack members of Congress to kill our speaker and to kill the Vice President, the United States.

Can any Republican with a group of them join in and take to a podium and ask for peace? I will join them on that podium. Can we do that together?

HAYES: It's a great idea, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. And I think if people are serious about unity, then they should be talking about that, and talking about knocking down the lie the President has told them and they have engaged in that this was stolen. It was not. And that would go a long way as well. Congresswoman Jackson Lee, thank you very much.

JACKSON LEE: It would and thank you so very much for having us. Anyone listening that is a Republican, we beg of you to join us in unifying this nation.

HAYES: Thank you. Five days ago, Senator Chris Murphy was rushed out of the Senate chamber along with his colleagues as the mob broke into the building. Now, he and several other more Democrats are calling for faster deployment of troops to Washington to prepare for security breaches ahead of inauguration. Senator Murphy joins me now.

Senator, what is your understanding about the -- who exactly is running the United States government at this moment?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I think the point you raised earlier about the lack of any public-facing briefing is a really important one. Part of the reason why it is important to remove the president is that it's pretty clear that he is orchestrating a cover-up of what happened on Wednesday, and that he is prohibiting individuals in the federal government leading federal agencies from standing before the cameras and explaining to the American public what they're doing to prevent this from happening in the future.

If you had federal law enforcement standing in front of the cameras right now telling people how many folks have been arrested, what will happen to you if you come to Washington for the inauguration to try to disrupt it, that would be a really important statement. It would be really important to the protection of the peaceful transition of power.

Right now, my feeling is that these agencies are not speaking to the public because no one's in charge. And one of the things we're working on right now is creating a really clear, unified command structure for the inauguration to make sure that there is at least, on that day, one person who is making all the decisions about how to protect the capital. That is part of what we learned failed us on Wednesday. There were far too many people that had to sign off on the military or anyone else coming to the rescue of members of Congress.

HAYES: I want to ask you about your colleagues. You have -- there are seven members of Senate -- seven Senate Republicans who voted to object to not seat the electors, the rightfully certified electors of states that Joe Biden won, that President-Elect won. I just -- I feel like those votes -- the significance of those votes have gotten lost a little bit behind the obvious trauma of the destruction and violence.

But those votes in the House and Senate side were vote that -- you know, we have the longest presidential election of basically any western country as far as I can tell. It goes on -- it starts in 2015 -- you know, it starts in 2019 and goes for a year. It's billions of dollars are spent when all of a sudden done.

They were voting to say that doesn't -- we're taking that away from you. It doesn't matter how you guys voted, you the people, the 156 million. Like, we're just going to give it to him. And I don't think there's a precedent for that in American history.

MURPHY: Yes. They will claim that what they were asking for was a new commission to investigate allegations of fraud and abuse. But they didn't even ask for the establishment of that commission. They didn't even try to get a vote on that on Wednesday. The consequences of their actions, if they were successful, would have been for the decision over who becomes president to be thrown to the Congress. And because more states are controlled by Republicans and Democrats, it's likely that Donald Trump would have been made president again for the next four years, notwithstanding his landslide loss.

So yes, what they were asking for was unprecedented. Their claims of simply wanting an investigation were disingenuous. I will say, though, that it is also important through all of this to recognize the difference in conduct between the leadership of the Republican Party in the House and the Senate.

I have been disappointed over and over again by Mitch McConnell. I was not disappointed by his speech on Wednesday. That stands in direct contrast to Kevin McCarthy, the leader of the Republicans in the House, who participated in the effort to overturn the election.

So, while we should focus on the actions of those seven, we should also recognize that there were other Republicans who did the right thing that day. Kevin McCarthy is not one of them.

HAYES: What do you think about the -- what the impeachment means for the Senate? There's a lot of question now about -- you know, there is the president-elect's cabinet to confirm. There is pressing matters as Sheila Jackson Lee just said, we're losing 3,000-plus people a day, on average, to COVID. It is intensifying. We're getting 200,000 cases a day. There's a lot that has to happen.

How do you think about that when you think about the House handing you for the first time ever the second impeachment of a president?

MURPHY: Well, what I know is that there are 24 hours in a day. And so, if the Senate is prepared to work, then there's an ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. My sense of history is that civilizations that skipped the accountability phase after an attempted coup are those that are doomed to have that insurrection rise again. And this accountability has to include the president.

So, I have no doubt that we can process impeachment and also confirm Joe Biden's appointees and also move forward some high-profile issues in those early days. I just think that we'll have to work extra-long hours to get it done. But this is an exceptional moment that commands us to be able to do more than one thing at once.

And if we don't do this accountability the right way, then I think we're just inviting for there to be a permanent insurrection in this country that will plague the Biden presidency for the next four years.

HAYES: Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, it's always good to hear your thoughts. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks a lot.

HAYES: Next up, the nationwide search for those interactions. I'll talk to one man whose crowdsource efforts on social media have already led to positive ideas including that man in the black you see here. How he's doing it, after this.


HAYES: There's a lot of harrowing footage from Wednesday's attack on the Capitol. One the most jarring was shot by HuffPost politics reporter Igor Bobic. It was posted while the attack itself was still happening. And it showed the Trump-incited mob and a lone police officer facing off inside the Capitol Hill.

The officer is clearly outnumbered as he starts to retreat upstairs. And when he gets the top, there's a moment where he looks to his left down a corridor that actually leads right to the Senate, the Senate chamber, and it's a quarter that appears to be unguarded.

As far as we can reconstruct, this was all happening while senators were still in that Senate chamber. And so, the officer puts himself between the mob of the corridor that leads to the Senate, and then he pushes the guy in the front and leads the mob in the opposite direction preventing them from gaining access to the entire Senate. And who knows what else.

Now, it can be incredibly difficult to identify members of the mob that stormed the Capitol, though it is made easier by the fact that many of them were wearing masks and a lot of them were live-streaming. The FBI has put out a request for any information that could help bring these people to justice. Many have already been identified thanks to CrowdSource digital sleuthing.

The guy wearing the big Q in his shirt at the front of that mob that chased the courageous officer up the stairs, well, he is now been identified as Doug Jensen of Des Moines, Iowa, in part, because he tweeted a photo of himself inside the Capitol. He was arrested by the FBI and now faces five federal charges.

Law enforcement officials are now warning about active plans for more attacks in the coming days and weeks increasing the urgency to find all the people who storm the Capitol. I want to bring in NBC News Reporter Brandy Zadrozny who has been covering extremism on the internet since well before the Capitol insurrection last week, and John Scott-Railton who's a senior researcher at the Citizen Lab, University of Toronto's Munk School, who has been leading some of the online CrowdSource efforts to identify the rioters at the Capitol.

John, let me start with you because I've been following those efforts. And I want to start by saying that digital CrowdSource efforts of identifying people on the internet can go horribly awry and wrong and off the rails and I've seen that happen. And you have been very responsible in how you're conducting this and for that I praise you. What -- how much progress have you been able to make in identifying some of the folks most notoriously captured?

JOHN SCOTT-RAILTON, SENIOR RESEARCHER, CITIZEN LAB, UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO: Well, for the record, I don't really like that guy's shirt, but I appreciate people who wear highly visible distinctive things.

HAYES: Right.

SCOTT-RAILTON: Because that's, we're using to track these folks down. And when I say we, of course, there's me. But there are thousands and now tens of thousands of people who are trying to do something to figure out who these people were, as a first step to helping understand what on earth their plans were that day.

HAYES: One of the people -- I want to talk about one of those people who's been named Zip Tie Guy, because I think one of the most menacing images and one of the most disturbing was this individual inside the gallery -- and I don't -- I can't remember if it's the Senate or the House. That's in there. He's in tactical gear. He appears to have mace. He might have a pistol. It's hard to tell.

But he definitely has zip ties and camo pants. And it's the zip ties that I think really are so worrying because that's a person who's going to take hostages. That's someone who's going to capture people. That's the only reason you bring those. What have we been able to learn about that individual?

SCOTT-RAILTON: Well, we now know his name, which is Eric Munchel of Tennessee. And we know it because this gentleman wore a series of clues all over his body, even though he took extreme efforts to conceal his identity. You'll note, he's wearing a mask, he's wearing gloves. His arms are covered. He's wearing long baggy pants.

But he's wearing on his chest, a thin blue line flag superimposed on the state of Tennessee, and a hat with Black Rifle Coffee Company which also has operations in D.C. From those clues and a tremendous amount of scrutiny of what he was wearing, we were able to first find him outside and find him with a woman who appears to be his mother, and then traced him back to his hotel that night.

HAYES: Brandy, I've seen people express some surprise at some of the profiles of some of the individuals who are being identified. We have several elected officials. We have -- we have some -- a number of military veterans. We have the lieutenant colonel, the second zip tie guy, Larry Brock, I believe his name is. Ronan Farrow, I think working, in fact, with John and sort of identified him. Larry Rendell Brock, retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel.

As someone who has been covering this movement online, what is your reaction to what we are learning about who these folks were?

BRANDY ZADROZNY, NBC NEWS REPORTER: Of course, it's not a surprise. You know, we've seen all these people before. Even, you know, that guy from Nashville, we saw him at the Nashville anti-lockdown protest, anti-Black Lives Matter protest, wearing in fact -- I think, John, this is correct -- the same outfit that he wore at those like, Second Amendment rights -- the Second Amendment rallies.

So, we've seen all these guys before. They're the militia groups, the Proud Boys the Boogaloo Boys, the QAnon extremists, white supremacists, COVID deniers, anti-vaxxers. And then, you know, you're generally more peaceable generic sort of MAGA types. You know, again, we've seen all of these people before at the state level. They came together on this day to heed the President's call. But none of that is surprising.

When you talk about the military aspect too, that's absolutely not surprising. We can look back to the spring and the summer when we saw the Boogaloo arrests. People that were threatening the lives of Black Lives Matter protesters with planned terrorism attacks who killed law enforcement officers, these were ex-military people, too.

So, we have a problem there with ex-military people coming back and getting radicalized and joining these groups.

HAYES: You know, I think it's useful here to talk about -- that the individual right there, Robert Keith Packer who is wearing the Camp Auschwitz shirt, which many people noted, which was quite prominent features in a lot of -- a lot of that footage. He has also been identified there.

Brandy, I think it's sort of useful to think about concentric circles here. I mean, you keep hearing Republicans talk about the insult to the 74 million Americans that voted for Donald Trump, but that's a lot of people, a huge number of people, right? The people that come to D.C. to begin with for this event is incredibly self-selecting.

I mean, it's one thing if you're a Trump fan and he comes to a rally in your town to go, right? It's another to fly across the country and get a hotel. I mean, you're already dealing -- the people that are coming to the Capitol, you're already dealing with incredibly self-selecting group. And then among them, an inner part of the concentric circle, the people that rushed to the capitol, you're dealing with like the hardest of the hardcore there.

ZADROZNY: Yes, absolutely. Like, these are the most radical people -- the most radical conservative, the most radical extremists surrounding, you know, the pro-Trump ecosystem that we -- that we can really see. Now, what is also concerning is that while this was going on in the Capitol, on the sixth, there were also state capital protests happening in dozens of cities throughout the country where people were listening to the events, listening to the sacking of the Capitol and cheering.

So, we -- it's not like we've got them all. It's not like they're all -- you know, we're still looking for the rest. John and others are ID-ing them now. But these people are still generally out there. And they went to fulfill this mission. Especially the QAnon people, they went to go execute members of Congress to see the great storm realized. And now most of them are back at home, doing who knows what. Likely, we hear from the DOJ and the FBI and we see online still, that they're not done.

HAYES: Part of what is so striking, John, is -- when you talk about Eric Munchel who took pains to conceal his identity, although he was -- he was with his mom, and she was not concealing her identity. That hurt. But a lot of the others didn't. I mean, I think part of what's so striking, right? I mean, the guy who's walking with the podium, whose name is -- he's now been identified Adam Johnson, he's actually been -- he's been arrested and charged. I mean, you know, he's smiling, like, ha, ha, isn't this funny? I've stolen the speaker's podium.

Like, you're -- it's amazing how many of these people didn't seem to think that it mattered that they were recording themselves committing serious crimes.

SCOTT-RAILTON: Well, you know, I think what's really important to do here, as we're getting more footage, more information is to understand how many different categories of people there were that day. There were people who are really ready and prepared for something. Some came as lone wolves, some came as groups. There were people who were LARPing, were playing dress up as a military people. And there were Instagram tourists who didn't have any idea what they wanted to do once they were inside the Capitol.

Each of those is a different set of people. A different series of motivations took them there that day. And I think it's very important as we're trying to understand all this to make that distinction. Let me tell you one entity, though, that didn't have any Instagram feed, that didn't have a Twitter feed, and that's the pipe bombs that are placed at the RNC and the DNC. And for me, that is really concerning because that's pretty clear evidence that there's some kind of a plan, (AUDIO GAP) there was a goal of diversion like (AUDIO GAP)

I wonder what happened if those bombs exploded and the SWAT teams (AUDIO GAP) to respond to that. Where would be right now?

HAYES: Final question for you, Brandy, is about -- and that's a really good point. Like, if those had exploded and everyone had gone there. You know, the concern about the future, Brandy. I mean, it seems to me that -- I think the question of the sort of social media platforms and what they've done is very complicated one for a lot of reasons in a policy perspective and a presidential perspective. It does seem to me that there is a fear on their part about essentially being the platform for something worse. And that is what's driving some of the actions right now. Do you think that's right?

ZADROZNY: 100 percent. I mean, this is a big step for them. And so, I think it's a big step and the banning of the president from social media platforms would only be taken if there was a great threat. And indeed, you know, there is. I think we saw -- we saw what militia groups were capable of planning when -- especially like the Governor Whitmer plot to kidnap her and murder her.

After that happened, that is when face -- after those people were arrested, that is when Facebook decided that militias -- homegrown militias in America were dangerous organizations and would ban them. So, that's what happened, right? There was that existential -- that real -- sorry, threat, and then the Facebook action.

This happened on the sixth, and now we have the platform's taking real action. But it's still -- it's just it's not - it's, it's too late, A, because all of these people have brain worms, and it's affected everyone. And those people still believe all the things that they believe. And now they're just moving on to smaller platforms.

So, what we have is OK, they can't infect the larger population anymore. But what they've done now is they've been telegraphing for weeks that they're going to be taken off these platforms, and to follow me on telegram or other places that I won't even mention, but to follow us there. And so, what you have now and we're watching these spaces is a concentrated group of real extremists of, you know, brain worms people who are all talking about the next event. It's very worrisome.

HAYES: Brandy Zadrozny and John Scott-Railton, thank you both for taking some time explaining all that tonight. I really appreciate it. Still to come, the growing number of Democrats calling for Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley to either resign or be expelled from the Senate. What that would look like, just ahead.


HAYES: One of the many disturbing videos to emerge from the Trump mob siege at the U.S. Capitol was this footage of House lawmakers in protective isolation during the attack after they've been rushed off the House floor. In it, Democratic Congresswoman Lisa Blunt Rochester trying to hand masks to at least six of her maskless Republican colleagues. They all turned her down.

One of them, Oklahoma Republican Markwayne Mullin can be heard saying, "I'm not trying to get political here as he refused the offer." Well, that was Wednesday. Yesterday, the Capitol's attending physician notified lawmakers that they may have been exposed to Coronavirus while on lockdown.

And today, Democratic Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman, a 75-year-old cancer survivor who underwent chemotherapy three years ago said she had tested positive and is experiencing mild symptoms. In a statement, her office said, "She believes she was exposed during protective isolation in the U.S. Capitol building as a result of the insurrectionist riots.

Again, all these Republicans just refuse to wear a mask. Everyone is in the same room together. One of their colleagues now, a cancer survivor, has tested positive. It doesn't seem like she's asking too much. It's just courtesy, simple courtesy to put it on, but they didn't want to get political, I guess.

Anyway, it's worth noting that Congressman Watson Coleman had already received the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine and still tested positive. Remember, while the vaccine provides a significant level of protection, especially after both doses, it is not a guarantee and particularly not for one. And everything happening in the country right now is happening against that backdrop of an accelerating plague.

We are now losing on average of more than 3,000 Americans per day to this virus. Last Thursday, we lost more than 4,000 in one day. In fact, just this year 2021, in 12 days, more than 30,000 Americans have died as a result of COVID. We are now at 367,000 total fatalities in this country. By Joe Biden's inauguration, it could be 400,000 deaths.

And while the vaccine rollout is going far slower than we hoped, it prevents -- it presents an enormous challenge for the incoming Biden administration, just one of many challenges. Another big challenge is what to do about the elected officials, Donald Trump, and Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, and many others who helped bring about the Trump riot.

They probably aren't going to resign despite widespread calls for them to do so. But there are ways to ensure that certain politicians can never serve in our government again. What that might look like next.


HAYES: It's been striking in the wake of what happened on Wednesday to watch folks like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley who played a role as I said at the top of the show in working towards the same end as the rioters, tried to overturn the presidential election to seat Donald Trump over the rightfully democratically elected man. But there is zero, zero sense of anything remotely resembling contrition after the mob beat a police officer to death. Just take a listen to how Ted Cruz justified his actions and took no responsibility.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You led the charge calling for an objection pending and Electoral Commission, a lot of tension yesterday. Do you feel some responsibility for what happened yesterday?

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): The job that I was elected to do is to fight for the people of Texas. And what I was doing is debating on the floor of the Senate election integrity, how we can protect the integrity of our elections.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking at everything that happened yesterday, and with the objections, if you had it to do all over again, would you?

CRUZ: Yes, absolutely I would object an urge that we should follow the law and follow the Constitution.


HAYES: That's a disingenuous lie, as are the excuses Josh Hawley came up with. What they were trying to do was block the seating of electors to throw it to the House where Republicans could make Donald Trump president. They were engaged in an act of -- again, this is sedition. I mean, it sounds so extreme to say that word, but what else do you call it when you are actively working to get the election overturned?

Like I said at the top of the show, we have dealt with sedition before. In fact, the 14th Amendment explicitly deals with it because they were dealing with the aftermath of Civil War. The framers of that, the authors of the 14th Amendment include a section three. It reads as follows. No person shall be a senator or representative in Congress or elector of president and vice president or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath as a member of Congress or as an officer of the U.S., or as a member of any state legislature as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each house remove such disability."

To talk about what can be done to punish and isolate lawmakers who played a continuous role in helping to spread Trump's lies and undermine the basics of American democracy, I'm joined by Melissa Murray, Professor of constitutional law at New York University School of Law, co-host of Strict Scrutiny podcast. And full disclosure, my wife Kate Shaw is also hosted that. And Paul Fishman, a former U.S. Attorney for New Jersey.

Melissa, let me start with you on this -- the 14th Amendment. It was interesting to me. This is a kind of dormant part of the Constitution. We don't see it activated very much. It was of course, pressing on the mind of the Republicans, the radical Republicans who wrote it dealing with the aftermath of secession.

Nancy Pelosi, mentioning in her letter to colleagues last night, "I'm grateful to all members for the suggestions, observations, and input you've been sending. Your views on the 25th Amendment, 14th Amendment, Section 3 and impeachment are valued as we continue."

So, you can see there that this is something that is floating around Congress as something needs to be activated here.

MELISSA MURRAY, LAW PROFESSOR, NYU SCHOOL OF LAW: So, as I said before, this administration really is the gift that keeps on giving for constitutional law. Lots of people are really digging in and finding these old chestnuts in the document that they really never had reason to look at before.

But as you say, Section 3 was ratified in the aftermath of the American Civil War. And the threat there was that the southern states were actively electing former members of the Confederacy and trying to install them in Congress in order to thwart the aims of reconstruction. And so, this particular provision was included in the 14th Amendment to provide the Congress with a way of keeping those who had previously taken an oath to the Constitution had backed out on that oath by serving in the Confederacy from serving in the future in the United States Congress or other offices.

And it's getting a lot of attention right now and rightfully so because we don't have a lot of mechanisms that we can use to deal with situations such as this one. Although there is also Article One of the Constitution which provides that the Houses of Congress can take -- make rules to expel their own members. And that includes the senate as well.

HAYES: You know, Paul, as Melissa said, I mean, we're constantly in the Trump era dealing with constitutional edge cases. All of these, right? I mean, impeachment is fairly rare. Obviously, the 25th Amendment is extremely rare and has never been invoked in the way people are now contemplating it, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment.

It does seem like we're just in a terrain that calls for a level of sanction that we don't normally use in politics, but it's justified here.

PAUL FISHMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY: Yes, I think that -- I think that's right, Chris. But at the same time, as a former prosecutor, I tend to think about revisiting the tools that are in the criminal law that are actually available for prosecutors across the country. We don't actually see a lot of prosecutions for seditious conspiracy. I think probably six months ago or certainly, four years ago, you would ask people what that meant.

A lot of people -- a lot of people who practice criminal law would have had absolutely no idea. But the truth is, the federal statute for seditious conspiracy is actually pretty simple. It basically says that if two or more people use force to delay the execution of a law of the United States, which were paused by force, the authority of the United States, they've committed a federal crime that's punishable by a pretty severe sanction.

And in a lot of ways, that fits exactly what happened here. There's no question that some number of the folks who broke into the Capitol with malicious intent, however, you characterize it, sedition, mayhem, sedition, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, what matters is the statutes that going to apply to their content. And it's not the only one.

You know, there was -- they attacked federal law enforcement officers, a federal crime. They killed one, a federal crime. And so, in some sense, I leave to the House and the Senate the procedures for invoking that particular clause in the amendment. But for prosecutors who are looking at this, it's in some sense, a very simple exercise.

HAYES: Yes, I just want to be clear here. You're talking here about the people that broke in, not the members of the United States Senate who I don't think you believe nor I believe are guilty of criminal conspiracy. Right.

So, let me -- let me follow up and then come back to you, Melissa. But, Paul, you know, you work -- you're a U.S. Attorney. If I'm not mistaken, you've worked in law enforcement. The absence of briefing -- I've been talking about a lot of people talking, and no official -- we haven't seen Wray, we haven't seen Rosen, we haven't seen anyone come forward and say, this is what we know. This is how many officers were injured. This is who -- this is how many arrests. This is the suspect was making? Does that strike you as strange?

FISHMAN: So, in some sense, it strikes me as strange, and in some sense, it doesn't. You know, typically, you see those sorts of briefings in situations in which there's been -- there's -- the investigation in one particular aspect has not concluded. When you see the Oklahoma City bombing, the 9/11, when they're people are searching for suspects, they're searching for clues, they're searching for answers. That's clearly going on here. Don't get me wrong.

I think that in some sense, the -- I assume that the FBI and the Justice Department are doing what they should be doing, which is looking to see whether there were people who plotted this. But that's not the kind of thing they should be talking about in public. They should be doing what they're doing, which is looking for clues, the same way that your guests before we're talking about it, but also in terms of looking at people's e-mail and text messages and getting search warrants and subpoenas for that sort of information.

What I would like to see in terms of public announcements, I would like to see briefings from those officials on what they're doing to prevent violence, not only in Washington D.C. next week when President-Elect Biden is inaugurated, but in the 50 state capitals and elsewhere around the country where we've now seen reports of threatened violence.

HAYES: To get back to this sort of idea -- again, we're two tracks here, the folks that broke in and the members of Congress who engaged in very different behavior, but again, towards the goal of overturning the election, Melissa. Some of the things being contemplated, like, you know, a second impeachment was going to happen, like have high bar for conviction. My understanding is that Congress can activate that section three of the 14th amendment with a majority vote. Is that our understanding of how it works?

MURRAY: Well, it's not -- we haven't really seen this for some time. But that's my understanding, too, that a majority vote would be required. But then there are some questions and scholars are divided as to whether the particular provision actually authorizes removing sitting senators from the chamber or whether it was purely intended as a disqualification clause to prevent future office holding.

HAYES: Right. Melissa Murray, professor at NYU School of Law, co-host of Strict Scrutiny. Paul Fishman, former U.S. Attorney, thank you both for making time tonight. I really appreciate it.

FISHMAN: Thanks for having us.

HAYES: All right, that is ALL IN on this Monday night. Just a heads up, a new episode of our podcast Why Is This Happening, we'll post overnight tonight. I get a chance to speak with Ta-Nehisi Coates about what happened at the Capitol on Wednesday and where American democracy is at right now. You definitely want to listen to that.

Right now, "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" begins. Good evening, Rachel.


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