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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 9/9/21

Guests: Francis Collins, Kelly Gomez, Jamie Raskin, Melissa Murray


President Joe Biden announced a sweeping new vaccine mandate or a set of mandates that could get as many as 100 million workers vaccinated as part of a new initiative to curb the Delta variant. Los Angeles. Los Angeles County took a bold step in the direction of the majority and President Biden`s priorities with the school board voting to mandate vaccinations for all students age 12 and over. Today is the deadline for tech companies and federal agencies to comply with the January 6 records request. Justice Department sues Texas over Abortion ban.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My message to unvaccinated Americans is this. What more is there to wait for?

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): The President speaks up and acts out for the silent majority.

BIDEN: We`ve been patient, but our patience is wearing thin and your refusal has cost all of us.

HAYES: Tonight the White House goes big to bend the Delta curve with NIH Director Francis Collins. Then --

MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today, after a careful assessment of the facts and the law, the Justice Department has filed a lawsuit against the state of Texas.

HAYES: What the new DOJ lawsuit against Texas means for reproductive rights in America. And Congressman Jamie Raskin on where the January 6 investigation stands on the first deadline day for document production when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Just a few hours ago, President Joe Biden announced a sweeping new vaccine mandate or a set of mandates that could get as many as 100 million workers vaccinated as part of a new initiative to curb the Delta variant.


BIDEN: My job as president is to protect all Americans. So, tonight, I`m announcing that the Department of Labor is developing an emergency rule to require all employers with 100 or more employees that together employ over 80 million workers to ensure their workforces are fully vaccinated or show a negative test at least once a week.

Some of the biggest companies are already requiring this, United Airlines, Disney, Tyson`s food, and even Fox News. The bottom line, we`re going to protect vaccinated workers from unvaccinated co-workers.


HAYES: The tone of Biden`s speech today I thought was pretty striking. You know, it`s been clear from the beginning, right, from back in the campaign through Inauguration Day, to now. The administration has understood from day one, their number one mandate, number one goal was to contain, even suffocate the virus, to restore some sense of normalcy.

And it`s also been clear the best way to do that, the best tool they have that we have is vaccination. And yet, despite the fact that a big majority of eligible Americans are vaccinated, and that is true across lines of race and class, there are tens of millions who have not. And the cost of that has been enormous.

BIDEN: My message to unvaccinated Americans is this. What more is there to wait for? We`ve been patient, but our patience is wearing thin and the refusal has cost all of us. So, please do the right thing.


HAYES: In order to make this happen, the President signed a string of executive orders he laid out a six-point plan to defeat COVID in the country centering around vaccinated the unvaccinated but also further protection for the vaccination through booster shots, keeping schools safely open, increasing testing and requiring masking, and protecting the economic recovery we`ve seen since Biden took office, and improving care for the many 1000s of people with COVID.

Biden also made it clear that he holds Republican officials responsible for the spread of COVID, the huge outbreaks we`ve seen this summer saying he will use the power of his office to make sure school officials who are trying to keep kids safe are protected.


BIDEN: All school officials trying to do the right thing by our children, I`ll always be on your side. Let me be blunt. My plan also takes on elected officials in states that are undermining you in these life-saving actions. Right now, local school officials are trying to keep children safe in a pandemic while their governor picks a fight with them and even threatens their salaries or their jobs. Talk about bullying in schools.

If they`ll not help, if these governors won`t help defeat the pandemic, I`ll use my powers president to get them out of the way.


HAYES: The President also announced he was cracking down on people who violate mask mandates and scolding the wildly anti-social behavior we`ve seen in so many videos that have gone viral in recent months.


BIDEN: I`m announcing that the Transportation Safety Administration, the TSA, will double the fines on travelers that refused to mask. If you break the rules, be prepared to pay. And by the way, show some respect. The anger you see on television toward flight attendants and others doing the job is wrong. It`s ugly.


HAYES: The directness with which Biden deliver the speech indicates to me at least that he and his administration, and his political advisors understand they are on the right side of both the politics and the substance here. They need to get COVID under control and it is not contained right now.


A recent Gallup found 61 percent of people approve a vaccination requirement traveling on an airplane. 58 percent approval requirement to attend events with large crowds, 56 percent approve of it to go to the office or worksite. More than 75 percent of Americans 18 and up have gotten at least one shot. So, this is not -- I mean, it`s a country that`s divided on everything, but it`s not that divided on this. It`s not -- this is not an abortion. This is not, you know, immigration. It`s 75 percent.

It`s a political fight President Biden should want to have. He clearly does. Unsurprisingly, there`s been a fair share of yelping from Republicans. Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky claimed this is absolutely unconstitutional. Arizona Governor Doug Ducey said this is exactly the kind of big government overreach we`ve tried so hard to prevent. Congressman Dan Crenshaw tweeted quote, "Are you people trying to start a full-on revolt? Honestly, what the hell is wrong with Democrats? Leave people the hell alone. This is insanity."

Full-on revolt. What do you think he meant by that? It`s amazing how common it`s become for Republican politicians to threaten something like full-on revolt in the face of policies they do not like. We`ve got a lot of vaccination requirements in this country. I bet you, Dan Crenshaw, has had to get vaccinated for oh, I don`t know, his service in the U.S. Armed Forces or enrolling in school. And we have them all for the same reason. Because communicable diseases, communicate. They move through populations, even vaccinated populations. It`s just a numbers game.

Today, that was a clear message from President Biden, the summer has been brutal in many parts of the country, particularly throughout the south. Too many American lives lost, too many preventable deaths. And we had the fall and winter with the school back in session. It`s time to reset our priorities to battle this horrible disease together through whatever means necessary.

Dr. Francis Collins is the Director of National Institutes of Health, and he joins me now. I want to start, Dr. Collins, with something that you and I spoke about the last time you`re on my program. The National Institutes of Health runs a hospital and you told me somewhat surprisingly to me that because the vaccinations were under an emergency use authorization, you could not mandate it in your hospital. That has changed now. I imagine it has been mandated in your hospital. What are the results of that been?

DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Well, I think it was very readily accepted by the people who deliver care in our hospital, which sees particularly sick patients, many of them cancer, immunotherapy patients who are very dangerously at risk for this virus. So, it was not a hard sell.

But the legal abilities to do so got a lot better when FDA gave full approval to the Pfizer vaccine. And that cleared away the one last legal hurdle in our being able to mandate this. And as you heard today, the president aims to act in that situation, I think, quite effectively and aggressively to make sure that we`re not missing out on the chance to try to do something to drive this pandemic back away from where it is right now in a pretty dangerous surge. We can do this.

And I hope that came across that this was both an a very forceful, muscular approach. But it has a point. It has a point of trying to get us past this. This is how we can get there.

HAYES: I want to say -- Ron DeSantis said something the other day that I felt encapsulated, a line of thinking that has been consistent throughout and has really caused massive havoc in this country. And he said, look, if you get -- if your decision about getting vaccinated doesn`t affect me, basically like what do you care one way or the other?

And obviously, I think you and the president other people feel differently. Explain to me why this isn`t simply an individual choice, like, you know, what t-shirt you put on or, you know, what kind of music you like.

COLLINS: Right. I`m glad to answer that. And, again, this is a place where I think freedom has gotten misinterpreted. Freedom is about rights, but it`s also about responsibilities. We have a free country where we take care of each other when our actions might hurt somebody else. If you`re unvaccinated, and you are therefore much more likely to get infected with Delta and be asymptomatic, quite likely for a couple of days, you are spreading that around to others around you, including kids under 12 who can`t be vaccinated.

So, it`s not just about you. For me, this is really an occasion to think about loving your neighbor, not just yourself. And that`s what the President was trying to say. If we really want to get through this, we`ve got to figure out how those 80 million people who still haven`t rolled up their sleeves, can see this as an opportunity and a responsibility not just about them.

HAYES: Yes, you just mentioned children. I was looking at these statistics about children. I want to put them up because it`s striking here. I mean kids under 12 can`t get vaccinated and the vaccination rates in lots of the part of the country for teenagers is very -- it`s been quite low. And we`re seeing this huge divergence. I mean, you know, when you talk about what the collective responsibility is, you know, in states that are lightly vaccinated, you see these huge spikes in hospitalizations. And that`s hospitalizations, both for adults and kids under 18.

You see it there on the right of your screen, this 10 those vaccinated states. You basically see that flatline for kids under 18. I mean, there is a countable number of children placed into direct danger such that people`s children are getting put in the hospital with this thing as a result of low vaccination rates.


COLLINS: Well, indeed, and people are concerned about kids under 12. And actually, asking FDA, would you please hurry up and approve vaccines for kids, which I know they are doing everything they can as soon as they get the data. But if you want the kids to be safe right now, the best way to do so is surround them by other vaccinated people, their older siblings who are old enough to get the shot, their parents.

And of course, if they`re going to school, avoid them catching it from another kid in the classroom by wearing those masks. This all just makes such perfect sense. You know, Chris, it just breaks my heart that somehow something as simple as these public health measures we`re talking about right now has turned into such a political fray. It`s sort of found its way into this dreadful circumstance, we have a culture war.

And this culture war, in this case, is killing people. It`s not just a philosophical political argument. It`s killing people, including, I`m sad to say, some children. We have to get past this if we really have a future as a nation. And history is going to look back on this. And maybe I would like to say particularly to those leaders who are on the wrong side of this, what Lincoln said one time. Citizens, we will not escape history. Do you want to be looked at in the lens of that backward look 10 years from now and defend what you did when in fact, we are losing 10s of thousands of lives that didn`t have to die.

HAYES: There`s also another sort of public cost of this, right, out beyond people that are making a decision for themselves, which is the public -- the health system. I mean, I have heard from so many doctors and nurses, just in my sort of reporting and anecdotally of the level of burnout and fray.

There`s this piece in Slate saying this healthcare system has collapsed. I know personally people that have walked away from the medical profession after this. There`s a real worry that we`re -- that the whole system is running in very, very thin margins right now.

COLLINS: It is and, you know, the people who are on the front lines, gosh, we they are heroic. They should not have had to be in the place they are right now. They suffered greatly through last year when we had no vaccines doing the best they could. And now, I`m sure they`re all wondering, why am I doing this, again, when the 90 percent plus of the people whose lives I`m trying to save are there because they didn`t get vaccinated and they didn`t need to be here.

That`s got to be tough as a health care provider. And I know they`re all doing the best they can and they`re not going to complain, and they are sacrificing. But to have that be in the face of something that could have saved so many of these folks, it`s got to be really tough to get up in the morning and go to work as an emergency room doctor and ICU doc.

HAYES: All right, Dr. Francis Collins, thanks so much for coming back. We`d love to have you anytime. I`m glad to be with you, Chris. It`s a big day to day. This is a big deal.

HAYES: I think so. So, what does the President`s new move to require vaccines for tens of millions of workers across the country mean practically? Stephanie Ruhle is NBC News Senior Business Correspondent, host of "STEPHANIE RUHLE REPORTS" right here on MSNBC. And she joins me now.

Stephanie, my understanding here is that this is going to be done through the Department of Labor and there`s actually fairly straightforward existing workplace regulatory architecture to do this. This is not like some crazy new test of the law.

STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: No. This is something that we have seen many presidents use to protect us from things like airborne diseases. They`re going to OSHA and they`re using this emergency safety rule. And really, Chris, it`s sort of a brilliant workaround from this administration, to get America vaccinated, right?

It`s been a three-pronged approach. The government came up with a vaccine, the medical community educated us, and now it`s businesses, they`re the ones that hold the carrot to get us vaccinated. I mean, what they`re doing with the Labor Department, this is going to impact over 80 million Americans.

And I can tell you, yes, are they going to be sued right off the bat? No doubt. But the message from corporate America to this White House is yes, please, and thank you. It is the air cover every CEO needed to get vaccine mandates for their employees. It`s what they want.

Because think of it. If you ran a business and so did I, and I suddenly say, I`m going to put in place a vaccine mandate, and I have workers who don`t want to do it, well, they may quit and go work for you if you have more relaxed rules. This way, it levels the playing fields. And all these businesses get to say, it`s not me, it`s the government. You got to get vaccinated. It`s exactly what they wanted.

HAYES: Also, am I -- am I crazier is? It`s still the case that you can vaccinate or test once a week. I mean, I was going to 30 Rock every day through the fall and winter. And we were -- we were there with other folks that we`re with every day. We`re getting tested three, four times a week.

I mean, this is just -- I mean, just forget about every politic. It`s just common sense. You`re going to have an indoor place where people are coming with a communicable disease. You better catch outbreaks. Like this seems -- you know, the fact that that option exists seems to me like a slam dunk.

RUHLE: It`s a slam dunk. This is completely obvious. And think about it. People getting tested a few times a week is cumbersome, it`s difficult. Businesses just want to know what are the exact rules and then I will follow them. Having to decide -- getting pushback from employees is a headache they don`t want to deal with.

And it`s not just their employees. Think about all the businesses that have customers. You and I both have children under the age of 12 that aren`t vaccinated. But we`re currently living lives where we`re taking a lot more risks than we did before we were vaccinated. We`re bringing more risk into our houses. That`s worrisome.

So, the fact that they`re putting these rules in place are a good thing. All of this is to help us get safer in our own homes. We need to do it, Chris. And think --


RUHLE: Do you want to go to a store with your children right now, if you have no idea if the employees are vaccinated? No, you don`t. But if you know everyone is you will absolutely frequent that business. And always remember, CEOs are not voicing their political opinions through their companies. They want to make money, they want their employees to go to work. They don`t want a huge absenteeism problem, and they want customers there. They want to make money.

All of this will help us get safer in terms of our health and help our economy get back on its feet in a real way.

HAYES: Yes. I mean, that last point is also key here. I mean, it`s also just the case that actual suppression of the virus is to everyone`s benefit whether you`re a worker or a boss, whether you`re in the private sector in the public sector. Like getting to a world where we have 1000 new cases a day in this country, where community transmission has been stamped out. Like that`s just a better world win-win for everyone, including like Fortune 500 CEOs trying to run businesses or hotel chains.

RUHLE: Yes, they want their customers back. They want their employees coming to work. They want all of it. This is how we get there. And if you think of the other thing we saw today, right, you have three major companies, Kroger, Walmart, Amazon now selling at cost, right, reduced cost, so, they`re not making any money, these at-home rapid tests, also a game changer. And you`ve got the government using the Defense Production Act to start producing more and more tests.

We have both experienced this. We have the benefit of working in a great company where we can easily get tested. But when you need to go get a test out there, it`s not easy and the results take a while. If suddenly we have inexpensive rapid tests in our home, it`s going to make us a lot safer because we as a country have a culture of going to work sick.

We have little kids at home. As soon as we think maybe they have a little something, boom. If we can test them at home on a regular basis and it doesn`t cost as much money, that`s huge. And the government didn`t subsidize it to these companies. That`s important. Because you know, there are going to be some far right conspiracy theorists who are going to say, well, this is just big business getting paid by the government. No, they`re not. It is not subsidized. They`re selling it at cost because they`re putting public health first.

HAYES: Yes. And this is -- we talked about this the other night, rapid tests can be a real game-changer. Also, don`t go to work sick even when we`re out of this pandemic. Stephanie Ruhle, thanks for making time tonight.

It`s no surprise there`s already an anti-vax backlash to the President`s announcement today. Just look at what`s been happening at school districts around the country requiring masks for kids. Tonight, Just hours ago, the second-largest school district in the entire country just took a dramatic step in keeping kids safe. What happened in Los Angeles is next.



President Biden`s announcement today extending vaccine mandates to tens of millions of workers is already facing a backlash not surprisingly. But that`s nothing new. We`ve already seen backlash after backlash after backlash all the way back last spring against all COVID restrictions. And it`s been building for weeks especially focused on mask mandates in schools as the new school year begins around the country.

We saw one of the first examples in early August in Franklin, Tennessee where parents hounded health care workers leaving a school board meeting or they advocated for a mask mandate.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are. You can leave freely but we will find you. We know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will never be allowed in public again. You will never be allowed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know who you are.


HAYES: You call that like speech and debate or something else when you look at that. A couple weeks later, a Republican candidate for local office in Pennsylvania just straight up suggested removing pro-mask school boards by force.


STEVE LYNCH, COUNTY EXECUTIVE CANDIDATE, NORTHAMPTON COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA: Forget going into these school boards and bringing data. You go into school boards to remove them. That`s what you do. They don`t follow the law. They don`t follow the law. You go in and you remove them. I`m going in with 20 strong men. I`m going to speak in front of the school board and I`m going to give them an option. They can leave or they can be removed.


HAYES: This week back in Tennessee, we saw this truly gross display by anti-mask adults at another school board meeting as a student shared her personal story of loss.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This time last year, my grandmother who was a former teacher at the Rutherford County school system died of COVID because someone wasn`t wearing a mask. This is a very --this is a very --



HAYES: Also on Tuesday, another pretty shocking display from parents in Michigan caught on video encouraging their children to violate a county order and school mandate to wear masks.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can go in, guys.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can go in. Go on in, guys.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they can`t enforce it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys, they can`t touch you. You just go ahead and go in.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They can`t touch us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They cannot touch you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go in. They can`t touch us.


HAYES: It`s happening all over the country in school after school. It remains the case that this loud anti-masker faction are in the minority. Recent polling shows nearly 60 percent of Americans support mask mandates in school for both teachers and students. A similar numbers were in vaccine mandates for teachers and 55 percent support vaccine mandates for eligible students.

Well, today, one of the largest school districts in the country, Los Angeles County, took a bold step in the direction of the majority and President Biden`s priorities with the school board voting to mandate vaccinations for all students age 12 and over.

Kelly Gomez is the president of the LA Unified School District Board of Education. She just voted to enact that vaccine mandate. And she joins me now. Great to have you in the program. First, I guess, talk me through the process that led the school board to this vote this afternoon.

KELLY GOMEZ, PRESIDENT, LA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT BOARD OF EDUCATION: So, thank you for having me, Chris. Well, throughout the pandemic, our school district has really been at the forefront of COVID safety. Since we opened our campuses last spring through our weekly testing program, a vaccine mandate for all of our employees, and more. So, this step is really a continuation of that commitment to protecting our students, families and staff.

This fall as our schools have reopened, despite all of those multi layered protection strategies, we`re seeing increased case rates due to the Delta variant and outbreaks at our schools. So, we know that if we want to keep our schools safe and open for students to learn and thrive, this is a necessary step. And vaccinations are the single best way to protect our students individually and collectively from the threat of COVID-19.

HAYES: Was it a unanimous vote?

GOMEZ: It was unanimous vote, yes.

HAYES: And what is parent reception been like as this -- as you move towards this process in the wake of this sort of previewing of the announcement yesterday?

GOMEZ: You know, I`m a mom of two young kids myself too young to be vaccinated. And I know how hard it is, as a parent in this pandemic to know exactly what`s the best way to keep your children safe. So, we know in a district where we serve 500,000 kids that not every family is going to agree with this step.

And there`s legitimate reasons why. There`s been intentional misinformation from people like Donald Trump and his allies. We know that our Black and Brown communities have experienced discrimination and the medical system in the past. And so it`s understandable that parents have legitimate questions and concerns. And we are here to answer them, to have compassionate conversations with every family so that they know the science and the facts about the vaccine and that they can meet this mandate when it kicks in January of 2022.

HAYES: So, it`s going to be January 2022. Are you also offering on school site vaccination? Like, will it be -- or are you relying on the network that exists already?

GOMEZ: Oh, absolutely. So, we have already provided opportunities to be vaccinated at all of our secondary schools. We relaunched mobile vaccination clinics which are going to every middle and high school in the district this fall. And we have community vaccination clinics where students can get vaccinated as well as their family members.

And we really want to emphasize to our community that these vaccines are free, they`re safe, effective. It doesn`t matter if you have health insurance or what your immigration status is. The vaccine is available to you at your local public school.

HAYES: Final question, this is just such an obvious one but I have to ask. I mean, it`s obviously the case that in the LA Unified School District, children enrolling already have a variety of vaccine requirements, correct?

GOMEZ: Yes. There is a whole host of vaccine requirements that they have to meet in order to come to our public schools in person. So this is just adding to this tradition, where we are requiring vaccinations to keep our schools safe and keep our communities safe.

HAYES: All right, Kelly Gomez, I appreciate your compassion and equanimity. Thank you so much for making time.

GOMEZ: Thank you for having me.

HAYES: Next, today is the first deadline for the sweeping documents request from the January 6 Committee and committee member Congressman Jamie Raskin is here to tell us what we could learn after this.



HAYES: Just two months ago today, on July 9, the fencing around the Capitol that have been put up in the aftermath of the January 6 attack finally began to come down. Now, two months later, law enforcement officials are planning to put it back up because there`s a new pro Trump rally planned outside the Capitol on September 18 for the more than 600 members of the pro-Trump mob that were charged in the January 6 insurrection that these people claim are, "political prisoners."

Remember, many of the people who stormed the Capitol have been charged for attacking and injuring at least 140 police officers with things like metal poles and bear spray, not to mention the fact that they`re on tape, you know, entering a building they cannot enter. And so, on September 18, those officers will mobilize again to protect the Capitol and all those inside.

This is all happening as Mother Jones reports that FBI is investigating seditious conspiracy charges related to January 6 attack, according to a search warrant served Tuesday night on a lawyer for the far-right Oath Keepers` militia group. The January 6 committee does its work to investigate the insurrection any role other lawmakers may have played in the attack.

Congressman Jamie Raskin, Democrat of Maryland, serves on that January 6 Select Committee. He`s also the lead House manager for the second impeachment of Donald Trump and he joins me now. Congressman Raskin, first let`s get an update on this these document requests. I think there`s two sets of thoserequests with different deadlines. But one of them if I`m not mistaken was today to federal agencies. Do you know the status of that?


REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Yes, it went out to the executive agencies. And it was due not at the close of business but just today. So, we would expect documents to be flowing in all the way up until midnight through electronic transmission.

HAYES: Something that really that I`ve found funny when I first started covering Congress and Capitol Hill is that Capitol Hill works on deadlines the way college freshmen do. Like, everything happens at literally at the last second. If it`s midnight, it`s going to come at midnight.

RASKIN: Yes, well, in this case, it`s worth the wait because there`s so much that we`re trying to find out about the attack on the Capitol in the Congress and the onslaught against Vice President Pence. And I`m especially looking for all the evidence of coordination among the different violent elements and the planning that took place beforehand.

I mean, you don`t knock over the U.S. Capitol spontaneously one day. That requires a lot of planning, millions of dollars of money invested and surreal organization. And so, we`re going to get to the bottom of it.

HAYES: Yes. So, you`ve got -- and the federal agency, you`ve got -- you`ve got essentially a partner, right? I mean, you don`t have you have lawsuits. You don`t have stonewalling. The document production from the telecom companies that that may involve other members of Congress and Trump officials is a little more fraught. What is your view sort of legally and constitutionally, about the legitimacy of that request, and its -- and its status and future?

RASKIN: Well, for one thing, if you look at what Kevin McCarthy was objecting to, it`s silly, because what he objected to was a document preservation request, where we told the companies to hang on to any documents that they`ve got a relevance to our investigation. And he said, if they comply with that, there would be some kind of unspoken retaliation against them if and when the Republicans come back into power.

So, essentially, he`s saying, don`t preserve the documents. He`s saying if you (AUDIO GAP) according to our request, that then there will be hell to pay on the other end. And it`s just absurd, but you got to ask yourself. And this is what America needs to understand. Why are these people continually trying to blockade an investigation into an attack against the Congress?

What is their interest in trying to impede a congressional investigation, which of course is illegal anyway, but why? What is it they`re covering up? It`s an amazing thing.

HAYES: Yes, I don`t -- I don`t think I realized it. This is probably on me for not carefully reading that there was a document preservation as opposed to a document production request. So, him saying, if you comply with a document preservation request, there will be retaliation from a Republican majority, to your point, just to make this clear, is saying destroy documents, right? I mean, implicitly, that`s what the (INAUDIBLE).

HAYES: Right. He`s saying, if you don`t destroy the documents, we`re going to exact revenge against you. So, I`m not quite sure McCarthy even understood that. I mean, they`re just lashing out at this point. But what an interesting comparison to make is what they`re saying now with what they said on January 6 through the day after, because they were so rattled and shaken by the violence that overtook the Capitol, that a bunch of them were saying exactly what we`re saying now.

I mean, Ted Cruz, called it terrorism. He called it -- they said they were domestic terrorists. McCarthy was calling for the censure of Donald Trump, for actions taken that today he`s trying to completely whitewash and pretend we`re nothing at all.

Lindsey Graham said, all of us could have died that day. One of them could have gotten him with a bomb, which of course is true because you had hundreds and hundreds of people entering the U.S. Capitol without going through security or having any background check. And of course, a lot of people thought somebody was going to, you know, pull out a gun and start firing, which is a last how far too many violent incidents end in the United States today.

So, I would just like them to go back and look at what they were saying or just go back and look at what Donald Trump`s lawyers were saying in the Senate when we brought the House impeachment over there. And his own lawyers numerously represented that they would never have anything positive to say about the insurrection, and that they would do nothing but denounce it.

And today, of course, they`re doing everything that they can to give comfort to those people who are being tried for assaulting federal officers, destroying federal property, interfering with a federal proceeding and so on.


HAYES: Finally, on the rally that is being planned, again, I mean, it`s sort of a strange thing. You don`t -- you know, you don`t want massive overreaction. It is a public building. At the same time, the last time that there was a kind of under reaction that led to this like, catastrophic event. How are you thinking about -- how are -- how are folks on Capitol Hill thinking about this rally?

RASKIN: Well, we`ve got a new Capitol Police chief, Chief Manger of Montgomery County, Maryland, nonetheless. And this time, of course, the Capitol Police force will be ready. Backup forces will be ready. And Congress isn`t there. And there`s no particular proceeding that they could be disrupting.

Some of the leaders of the Proud Boys apparently are saying this is a false flag operation meant to tease out criminal suspects from January 6 so that (AUDIO GAP) some of the attendance. But nonetheless, we are planning for something really big because Donald Trump and his allied forces continue to embrace the insurrection.

So, at this point, I hope (AUDIO GAP) overly partisan, Chris, but we`ve got a party of democracy in America and we`ve got a party of insurrection. And that`s the choice that`s confronting the American public today.

HAYES: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you so much for your time.

RASKIN: My pleasure.

HAYES: Tonight, the Department of Justice responds suing Texas over the state`s abortion ban. A look at what happens next. What this means for other states playing to follow Texas`s lead coming up.



HAYES: In two days, America marks the 20th anniversary of the worst attack on American soil. President Joe Biden will commemorate the solemn occasion by paying tribute to those we lost at all three of the attack sites on Saturday. Former President Barack Obama plans to visit the 9/11 Memorial in New York City. Former President George W. Bush will address families of the victims of flight 93 at their Memorial there in Pennsylvania.

Former President Donald Trump will be the casino in Florida with Don Jr. spending the 20th anniversary of the attacks doing live commentary for a heavyweight boxing match. Now, this is -- well, it feels like a parody of the kind of thing that Donald Trump would do, but it`s of course, perfectly fitting for this disgraced ex-president essentially exiled from polite society to spend this solemn occasion doing boxing commentary on pay per view.

Frankly, everyone who was a part of Trump`s administration, which stumbled through a year this pandemic with no regard for human cause should never be welcome in polite society ever again, particularly Kellyanne Conway. Kellyanne Conway who really deserves to be well shunned for her years of brazen dishonesty and obsequiousness in service of Donald Trump. Like, when she Christen the then-new Trump administration by coining the term alternative facts in defense of a lie of the crowd size of the inauguration or when she cries it criticize former President Obama, is one of my favorite moments, for letting the "Bowling Green massacre happen under his watch," which was news to people in Bowling Green because no such event ever took place. Or when she misled the country about the alleged criminal conspiracy surrounding the then-president even though it was not her most dangerous and destructive lie.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, FORMER ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: The HHS Secretary said this morning that we`re ramping. We`re ramping up with the commercial labs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why now? Why didn`t they do it while it was contained to get ahead of it?

CONWAY: It is being contained. And do you not think it`s being contained in this country?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not a doctor or a lawyer.

CONWAY: But you said -- you said it`s not being contained. So, are you a doctor a lawyer when you say it`s not being contained? That`s false. You just said something that`s not true.


HAYES: Oh, you just said something that`s not true. You just said it wasn`t being contained. Do you not think it`s being contained? Oh, I don`t know. That was March 26, 2020. 600,000 people have died since then, 600,000, the size of Nashville. Like if we`ve dropped a nuclear bomb on Nashville, that`s the number of dead Americans because the pandemic was not contained in no small part, because of Kellyanne Conway`s administration`s failure to properly prepare.

But Conway, well, he`s finally facing some tiny semblance of a consequence. You see as his presidency was coming to an end, Donald Trump appointed a number of his enablers and lackeys Conway and former press secretary Sean Spicer -- remember that Dude? That was like the inauguration. Crowd size dude -- two positions overseeing our country`s military academies.

And the irony, of course, is that these are institutions built on the foundation of a strict code of ethics and responsibility. Just look at the Air Force Academy which Conway was overseeing on the board where hundreds of students were punished earlier this year for cheating on exams. Two students were dismissed from the academy entirely because there are consequences for dishonest and unethical behavior.

Yesterday, President Biden decided to bring some consequences of his own against those Trump appointees for their dishonest and unethical behavior. He told him to resign or they`d be fired, a clear message that those who peddled and lies and conspiracy for Donald Trump should not be rehabilitated.




GARLAND: This kind of scheme to nullify the Constitution of the United States is one that all Americans, whatever their politics or party should fear. If it prevails, it may become a model for action in other areas, by other states, and with respect to other constitutional rights and judicial precedents. Nor need one think long or hard to realize the damage that would be done to our society if states were allowed to implement laws and empower any private individual who infringe on another`s constitutionally protected rights in this way.


HAYES: That was the Attorney General the United States Merrick Garland earlier today announcing that he is throwing the full force of the Department of Justice at the state of Texas, suing them over their near abortion ban.

Now, this comes just over a week after Supreme Court refused to block the blatantly unconstitutional law in a five-four decision issued in the dead of night push through by five conservative justices, including three Trump appointees.

Melissa Murray is a professor of constitutional law at New York University School of Law. She clerked for Justice Sonia Sotomayor when she was on the Second Circuit. She now co-host the Strict Scrutiny podcast along with, full disclosure, my wife, Kate Shaw, as well as Leah Litman, and she joins me now.


Melissa, I want to get into the substance here, but I was so struck by the wording there where he says this is an effort to nullify federal law. I mean, nullification has a particularly sharp resonance in constitutional history. There was a Nullification Crisis in the 1820s that was the precursor to the Civil War. It was a very, very strongly worded statement from garland today.

MELISSA MURRAY, PROFESSOR OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW: It was a strongly worded statement, and I`m not sure that it was entirely directed exclusively at the public. I think ultimately, Attorney General Garland recognizes that this lawsuit is in some way bound for the Supreme Court. And so, the idea that constitutional law may be nullified, the protections of the Constitution may be nullified by a state, I think he`s trying to implore the members of the court to remember that this doesn`t just end with abortion, that this can go even further to the point where the Constitution is nothing more than paper.

HAYES: The Department of Justice is seeking an injunction. And I just want to read from the suit here. The United States also seeks an order preliminarily impersonal enjoining the state of Texas including its officers, employees, and agents, including private parties who would bring suit under the law from implementing or enforcing S.B.8.

This seems -- they`re just going straight at the kind of argument that the five justices use. Well, there`s no one to enjoin here and just saying like enjoin at all.

MURRAY: No, it`s a very novel approach. And again, I think that`s warranted. What Texas has done is surely unorthodox, and this perhaps is the best way to meet it. The United States government has the authority to sue states. Texas doesn`t have sovereign immunity against a suit from the United States.

But the question here is whether in including as agents of Texas, even those private parties were authorized under the law to enforce S.B.8 whether they`re still the question of we don`t know who exactly to enjoin if we actually do issue an injunction blocking this law.

It`s all well, and good to say we`re blocking Texas, but the real issue is how to stop those private parties from enforcing this law.

HAYES: Right. And it does seem to me that there`s a very high likelihood of, you know, us getting a five-four decision from the same set of justices basically rejecting this, you know, at 1:00 in the morning. But at some level, it`s like you kind of got to throw everything you have at it legally if you`re the United States Department of Justice.

MURRAY: Well, I think Texas definitely push the envelope in promulgating the statute, which is one that we have never seen the likes of before. And I think the Department of Justice is similarly pushing the envelope in trying to enforce it.

I think, again, I`m speaking to all of those people who for the last week have been imploring the by the administration to do something to step in and intervene to protect constitutional rights in Texas.

HAYES: Are there -- are ther things the Department of Justice could do to your mind?

MURRAY: Well, the terminal justice has some limited jurisdiction here. I mean, there`s certainly the prospect that they floated earlier about enforcing more robustly the FACE Act, freedom to access clinic entrances act, but that really isn`t the issue here. The issue is not getting into clinics, it`s getting into clinics and getting the services that you require.

It`s also possible for the federal government to withhold federal funding from states that infringe upon constitutional rights. So, that is one avenue. But we`ve seen this kind of thing before in our history. It reminds me a great deal of the situation after 1954`s Brown versus Board of Education where the southern states drag their heels about enforcing the integration mandate.

And eventually, the United States Supreme Court stepped in in a case called Cooper versus Aaron to say that when the -- when the court enforces the constitution and interprets the Constitution, those decisions take on the force of constitutional law. And you don`t just get to ignore them or defy them. They have to be obeyed. And then it was then left to the administration, John F. Kennedy`s administration, or rather Eisenhower`s administration to step in and send the National Guard into Little Rock to enforce that mandate.

HAYES: Right. The problem here, though, is the court is saying ignore our own precedent. I mean, you`ve got the court basically saying like, hey, yes, it`s unconstitutional, but we can`t figure it out and basically throwing it on the scrapheap themselves.

MURRAY: Well, that I think is the subtext of the Attorney General`s afternoon press conference. I mean, I think he`s talking to the public surely, but I think he`s also trying to impress upon the judiciary that where does this end if we allow the judiciary itself to facilitate states and avoiding their constitutional duties? Where does it end? It doesn`t end well, and I think he was underscoring that point repeatedly.

HAYES: Melissa Murray, as always, thank you so much. That was great.

That is ALL IN on this Thursday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW "starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thanks, my friend. Much appreciated. And thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. You start in the summer of 1964, you go through the summer of 1965.