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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 8/30/21

Guests: Atia Abawi, Andrew Bacevich, Sheri Fink, Corey Herbert, Olivia Beavers, Ruth Ben-Ghiat


The United States ended its 20-year war in Afghanistan today with the conclusion of the largest non-combatant airlift in American history. Hurricane Ida has left catastrophic damage across southeastern Louisiana, leaving much of the New Orleans area without power, interrupting phone service amid a surge in COVID. Politico is now reporting that as lawmakers were evacuated to a safe room, Rep. Jim Jordan and Rep. Matt Gaetz called Trump to tell his supporters to stand down. Anti-maskers harass public officials amid protests.




CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN.

GEN. KENNETH `FRANK` MCKENZIE JR, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTCOM: I`m here to announce the completion of our withdrawal from Afghanistan.

HAYES: America`s longest war is now officially over.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The military mission is over. A new diplomatic mission has begun.

HAYES: Tonight what the end means for America, for the Taliban, and millions of citizens of Afghanistan.

Then, as search and rescue operations continue in the Gulf, the desperate hours for hospitals already overwhelmed by a pandemic. Plus --

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I don`t know if I spoke with him in the morning or not. I just don`t know. I have to go back -- I mean, I don`t -- I don`t that -- when those conversations happened.

HAYES: What we`re now learning about Jim Jordan`s multiple conversations with the President on January 6 and why the select committee is seeking his phone records.

And how the unhinged response to public health measures during the pandemic is taking a very dark turn.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going in with 20 strong men. I`m going to speak to one of the school board and I`m going to give them an option. They can leave or they can be removed.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. On September 26, 2001, almost 20 years ago, was 15 days after the U.S. was attacked on 9/11, a dozen CIA operatives landed in northern Afghanistan. Their mission was to lay the groundwork for the U.S. invasion of the Taliban-controlled country.

Since that day, for nearly two straight decades, there has been an American military presence in Afghanistan until today. This afternoon, America`s longest war was brought to a close.


MCKENZIE: I`m here to announce the completion of our withdrawal from Afghanistan and the end of the military mission to evacuate American citizens, third-country nationals, and vulnerable Afghans. The last C-17 lifted off from Hamad Karzai International Airport on August 30 this afternoon at 3:29 p.m. East Coast time. And the last manned aircraft is now clearing the airspace above Afghanistan.


HAYES: In so many ways, the US military`s exit from Afghanistan has been as wrenching and morally fraught as the occupation and the war itself. There`s been a continuity in fact between the two. Last week, after the fall of the country to the Taliban again, and as the U.S. withdrawal continued, an attack near the airport in Kabul killed 13 U.S. service members and more than 100 Afghan civilians. ISIS-K, an affiliate of the Islamic State claimed responsibility.

President Joe Biden and First Lady Jill Biden paid their respects to the fallen yesterday, joining their families for the dignified transfer of their remains at Dover Air Force Base. And on top of that brutal loss came the news of our retaliation.

In response to that act of mass murder, the U.S. military launched a drone strike targeting and Islamic State car bomb that Central Command said posed an imminent threat to the airport. That strike killed 10 Afghan civilians according to family members. All 10 were extended family and several were small children.

An Afghan journalist told the BBC, the family were planning to come to the United States on Special Immigrant Visas.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family were expecting an SIV. They had received a call that, you know, a car will come and get you to the airport any day now. And that`s why there were so many people in the house. They had all relocated to that one house and we`re waiting to leave. And this is something that the neighbors in the family kept saying. If you were willing to give them a visa to come to your country, how could you end up killing them and accusing them of being (INAUDIBLE)?

HAYES: The Pentagon says they are, "Not in a position to dispute those reports and they are investigating." This is precisely the horrifying moral truth of the entire war, a war that was initially justified not at all crazily by the fact that the Taliban did indeed harbor a man who had pulled off the most lethal terrorist attack on U.S. soil, a wart that metastasize for 20 years punctuated by unspeakable violence effectuated often by Americans towards Afghans, often Afghan civilians. A war with the supposed aim of propping up an independent Afghan government that fell in a matter of days. A war that has now ended with the return of the Taliban.

For all the arguments happening now but the moral shortcomings of the U.S. military`s exit and the Afghans left behind, I`m reminded of a saying. The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now. The best time to leave Afghanistan was years ago, but the second best time is now. Now, it is done.

That does not mean of course that this is the end of the story. By any means, Afghanistan remains a country nearly 40 million people facing dire circumstances. But the U.S. now gone, the Taliban in charge, and the economic future very much doubt, the Taliban who gave al-Qaeda safe haven are indeed a vicious faction of ideologues, infamous around the world for the violent mayhem of their misogyny particularly. It was of course, a member of the Taliban who shot a young girl named Malala Yousafzai in the head, because she advocated for education of girls.

And now, the Taliban are back in power after 20 years with a state to run. They claim they will respect women`s rights this time. They claim women will be allowed even to attend universities and female-only classes, as long as their studies are in line with the Taliban`s interpretation of Islamic law.

But they are also a faction that (INAUDIBLE) is governed, must run a state after 20 years as militants. And the last time around, it didn`t go very well. In fact, the lack of international support or a handful of nations that recognize the Taliban helped pave the way for their objection from power. And so, perhaps it`s not actually all that surprising the Taliban did, in fact, cooperate with the United States military for security purposes after the last -- over the last couple weeks.

The Biden administration got a lot of flack about "trusting the Taliban," but it is a fact they were in a position where they could have killed a lot of U.S. troops and a lot of civilians, they did not. And that fraught and tenuous partnership with the Taliban, the U.S. military was able to pull off one of the largest airlift in history, evacuating more than 120,000 people since last month, an incredible logistical achievement.

Tens of thousands of Afghan refugees have now touched down in countries around the world from Qatar to Albania to here in the United States, all hoping to find somewhere to rebuild their lives in safety. And so, here we stand, a new chapter for Afghanistan, a new chapter for us. It is a fact that ending this war requires a level of resolve that no one had prior to President Joe Biden.

It required standing up to the vast establishment consensus and confronting the fickleness of American opinion. Joe Biden has done that. The actual evacuation of all U.S. troops has finally happened. And while there`s very little joy to find in any of this long, painful story, the actual end of this war is a remarkable thing.

Atia Abawi is a Foreign Correspondent and MSNBC International Affairs Analyst. She spent nearly five years in Afghanistan where she ran NBC News`s coverage there. And retired Army Colonel Andrew Bacevich is the co- founder and president of the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, author of the book After the Apocalypse: America`s Role in the World Transformed. In this week`s issue of The Nation, he wrote about why we lost in Afghanistan, and they both join me now.

Colonel, maybe let me -- let me start with you. On your feeling now on this day, you`ve written much about the war on terror, much about us overseas war over the last two decades. Did the President do the right thing?

ANDREW BACEVICH, PRESIDENT, QUINCY INSTITUTE FOR RESPONSIBLE STATECRAFT: I think there`s no question about that. Prolonging the war beyond 20 years, would not have served any purpose, at least not who served any American interest. So, this day had to come. It`s sad, disturbing that the evacuation had to occur the way it did, ill-planned, ill-managed with more U.S. casualties, although, as you correctly said, at the end of the day, it really is a remarkable achievement.

That said, I would insist that the real story here is not what has happened over the past two weeks or so, but what`s happened over the past 20 years. We failed. We embarked upon a major effort to build a nation, to create a legitimate government, to build an army that would defend Afghanistan. We failed on every count, a costly failure in terms of blood and money.

And therefore, it seems to me the imperative of the moment is to -- is to ask the question, how did this happen? What do we need to do to make sure it doesn`t happen again?

HAYES: Atia, you were -- you were in Afghanistan for years during this war, and a few people pointed out today that the sort of final closing chapter in which ISIS Khorasan, you know, commits this act of savage mass murder killing hundreds of civilians and 13 U.S. service members. And then a strike by the U.S. that appears to have taken out children, civilians, is one small chapter happening in Kabul of a war -- of a cycle that has happened for 20 years often in rural -- remote areas.

ATIA ABAWI, FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that one thing that we do need to realize is the war might be over technically for the U.S., but the war is not over for the Afghans. It`s not over for the Taliban either. As you mentioned, ISIS Khorasan is an enemy of the Taliban. In fact, some of them were members of the Taliban. We might even see ranks of the Taliban going over into ISIS-K.


And there is a vacuum that`s been left behind. 20 years, there has been a lot of failures and a lot of blame to go around. But there has also been a lot of success. A lot of Afghans who relied on the U.S. and NATO mission there, on their partners there, and that vacuum is going to be filled by we don`t really know what. We assume it`s the Taliban. We assume that the Taliban, they`re showing on a good front, but they`re divided in their own ranks.

They`re terrified right now of not being able to form a proper government, not being able to provide for the people, and really, the infighting that`s going to take place. You know, Afghanistan has been known for its past, for warlords, and the different factions and fighting as you mentioned. And we`re seeing a new group of so-called warlords or power brokers that are going to try to fill that vacuum and try to take that power from different members of the Taliban regime.

HAYES: Colonel, why do you think it took this long for us to get this point? I mean, it is striking when you think about the U.S., how long it`s been a nation, how many military engagements it has been involved in, that this is on the books the longest war that we have fought. Why?

BACEVICH: I think we have a hard time as a nation confronting some very uncomfortable facts. You know, with the end of the Cold War, we dubbed ourselves the indispensable nation. We declared that history had ended. We concluded that the future was going to be our future, that liberal democracy was going to triumph everywhere.

There was plenty of evidence before 9/11 that that was not in the cards, but 9/11 really drove the point home. And so, we embarked upon this enormous folly called the Global War on Terrorism, to give the lie to those facts, to try to demonstrate that yes, we were indeed the indispensable nation, the one and only superpower.

And the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan together really demonstrate the extent of the folly, and I think call upon us today to rethink who we are as a people as a nation, where we fit in the global order to move to a posture that is more restrained perhaps in the use of military power, and that doesn`t fancy that the rest of the world is going to be remade in our image. That`s the real source of the problem.

HAYES: Atia, there have there been so many stories, wrenching, awful stories about folks that are trying to get out people that had worked with U.S. forces, students, for instance, at the American University in Kabul. You know, one thing that I had a hard time getting my head around when they say 122,000 folks who got out, there -- Blinkin is saying close to 100, probably between 100 to 200 Americans left there was what`s the universe of folks in Afghanistan who would have say, qualified for the SIV visas who wanted to get out? You know, what do we have our arms around as a population and what their lives look like now?

ABAWI: There are a lot of people left behind. I`m in contact with green card holders who have been left behind who had gotten their green card by being SIV candidates. There are people who are qualified for P2 that are terrified for their lives. There`s a woman who is a lawyer, his father was a colonel in the Afghan army, who has bullet holes throughout her wall outside of her house because they`re trying to scare her and her mother and her younger siblings.

It`s a terrifying experience that`s left there. And I should also note, it`s a traumatic experience for the Afghans clearly. It`s also a traumatic experience right now, for our U.S. service members who spent time there, our diplomats who spend time there, American civilians and international civilians who spent time there, because they are seeing some of their people, many of their people, people who they relied on to help keep them alive while they were in Afghanistan. And they`re terrified that their lives are going to be lost and they weren`t able to help them.

I`ve talked to these service members, I`ve talked to these diplomats, and it`s a -- it`s a horrible -- it`s a horrible feeling. And we need to keep that in mind on this really heavy, heavy day that especially those service members who already suffer from PTSD, I would like to say, if you know, a friend or family member or family who has lost a loved one, please reach out to them especially today in the coming days, because it`s a hurtful time and we need to remember that.


HAYES: Atia Abawi and Andrew Bacevich, thank you both for joining me tonight. I really appreciate it.

ABAWI: Thank you.

BACEVICH: Thank you.

HAYES: The intersection of the pandemic and climate change tonight. A hurricane supercharged by the hot waters and the warming Gulf and hospitals already full of COVID patients who could not be evacuated. The latest on the situation Louisiana is next.


HAYES: On Sunday hurricane it made landfall in Louisiana as a Category 4 storm, 150 miles per hour winds. It was the fifth strongest landfall in the history of the entire continental U.S. And although Ida has now weakened to a tropical depression, it brought gusts powerful enough to just tear the roof off the hospital and send debris barreling forward.

Torrential rain caused dangerous widespread flooding. Here`s the view outside of a fire station in St. Bernard Parish. Here`s the same area just one hour later, completely submerged. Rescue efforts are now underway in the state. Teams are using trucks and boats to navigate flooded neighborhoods. Some armed with chainsaws to clear debris trapping people in their homes.

One million people are without power right now as a result of incidents like this where an electrical tower was left just utterly crumbled by the storm. Now, it could take days or weeks even for power to be fully restored, which is obviously ominous and terrible for a number of reasons, setting aside the massive inconvenience and the potential danger from the southern heat, which is very real.

There`s also the brutal reality of the Coronavirus, which has been ravaging Louisiana. In one ICU, doctors and nurses were forced to manually pump air into patient`s lungs after generator failure caused their ventilators to shut off. A harrowing reminder the virus does not pause for natural disasters. And so, medical professionals are left balancing a once-in-a- century pandemic on top of our changing climate, which makes extreme weather events both more common and more dangerous.

Sheri Fink is a New York Times correspondent who has been reporting on this. She`s a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, author of a really masterful account called Five Days of Memorial, which is about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in one New Orleans hospital. And she joins me now.

This is, Sheri, something that you have written about for decades now, I think it`s fair to say. First, let`s just start with how hospitals appear to be holding up in the area that was struck so far.

SHERI FINK, CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, unfortunately, this is a pattern and I have been writing about it for a long time. And I should say that I`m just starting to book leave to work on a book about COVID. And so, I`m down here mostly for that. Hopefully, people are following my amazing colleagues who are all-out to the region with the Times.

And what they`re finding and what I`ve been hearing as well as I`ve been speaking to doctors and hospital staff, listening to the press conferences and speaking to people, is that hospitals have had problems. We have hospitals in the bayou area, which is about sort of southwest of New Orleans, they have had to evacuate a number of them, one of them a rather large hospital.

And as you pointed out, COVID is making this much more difficult. The governor stated ahead of the storm that hospitals would not be evacuating patients off, and they do ahead of the storm. For the most part this time, they did not because there were not hospitals that had the capacity to take that.

Today, I spoke with one hospital officials in Baton Rouge who`s preparing to take patients from Terrebonne General Hospital in the Houma area. And he said, they informed the state that we will take those patients, we will make some room, but we need staff because of the COVID pandemic. Their staff has just already overstretched. So, they want staff to arrive with the patients.

So, these are some of the concerns. And the power outages, you know, many, many hospitals are operating on backup power. They have already had, as you mentioned, difficulties with those generators. We`ve seen that over and over in many storms. And the governor today recognize that this is a high priority because they can fail. They`re not -- you know, they don`t hold up for long periods of time often.


FINK: So, this is a big issue.

HAYES: I also want to bring in Dr. Corey Herbert who`s a pediatrician on the ground in New Orleans, Louisiana. And, Doctor, tell me what you`re hearing from fellow doctors there and how things are looking generally in New Orleans right now.

COREY HERBERT, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, LSU HEALTH SCIENCE CENTER: Well, you know, people are a little bit frustrated. I mean, you know, it`s the trifecta. People still have PTSD from Hurricane Katrina, and then COVID-19 with the hospital shortages. And now with Hurricane Ida, it`s almost like deja vu all over again.

And that is a real problem, because not only is it just a physical issue where people are very sick, but it`s also a mental issue where people are trying to escape. Meaning, they`re starting to drink a lot of alcohol, they`re starting to smoke. And then what happens is they`re not going to be able to have any ability to leave this city because there`s not gas, there`s not electricity, so they`re in these hot houses, they`re dehydrated from drinking, and then they don`t get enough water, and then they end up in the hospital. And that`s -- and then they can`t even go to the hospital.

HAYES: Well, it seems to me the key issue here, Sheri, is the timeline for power restoration. I mean, the one time that I`ve been in a serious storms aftermath, which was hurricane Irma in Florida, it was just so apparent that, you know, 12 hours out without power, 24 hours, not great. You start to push out to three days, particularly in a hot place, you start to really start to run up against some real limitations for people`s health and security.

FINK: This is so, so true. And it`s not just the hospitals -- and by the way, some of those do not have their air conditioning systems attached to the backup power.

HAYES: On the vent -- yes.

FINK: So, that is as exactly as you said, a real threat to patients when it gets hot. But really the many people at home, including many people at home with COVID who are being treated, you know, with oxygen, those are the real priority now. And we`ve seen that over and over again that, you know, hospitals it`s easy to focus on them. But many, many people live at home with durable medical equipment that rely on power, and there needs to be outreach to these individuals who may need assistance.


HAYES: Dr. Herbert, you know, you talked about the PTSD of Katrina 16 years ago. And I wonder how much obviously, the levees here have held as far as - - as far as we know, which is, of course, massively important as we saw 16 years ago. If there have been hardening -- if there`s been hardening of the infrastructure in terms of having a city and a medical infrastructure particularly better prepared this time around than it would have been 16 years ago.

HERBERT: Yes. And I really do feel like even though, you know, the medical infrastructure right now is fragile because of COVID-19, it is much better than it was 16 years ago, because we had a loss of life that was -- that was over, you know, three or 400 people in the hospital settings because they weren`t prepared. They didn`t have generators. So, now at least, we do have generators.

But, you know, what`s happening because doctors are frustrated, they`re having to move patients that really need care and for -- and mostly unvaccinated people that are in the hospital admitted, doctors are frustrated. But the patients, the people are frustrated too. And the reason why is because this is actually a super spreader event. And the reason why is because if you have let your guard down, you`re frustrated, you`re upset.

The last thing you`re going to want to do is sit in your house and wear a mask with all of your family members around huddled because you`re -- you know, it`s hierarchy of needs at this point. So that`s going to make the Delta variant spread even more so. And that is a real problem.

HAYES: Do you think, Sheri, in terms of physical damage to these hospitals -- the hospitals, you also talked about the staffing issue. And this is something that I`ve just been hearing more and more, both Louisiana and Florida that there is a real -- we`re hitting a real crunch here. And I can imagine, when you mix in folks that have evacuated, healthcare workers that have evacuated, and the staffing shortage and the sort of capacity hospitals, there`s -- that has to be a real front of mind concern for everyone in the medical community in the entire area.

FINK: This is so, so true. And I`ve spent much of the last year and a half reporting from within hospitals and the staff are tired. You know, we`ve been hearing these stories. They`re just so demoralized. There`s that horrible feeling of now being treating, as you pointed out, people who could have been vaccinated who most likely would not have gotten critically ill if they had been, so preventable illnesses. And other severe staff shortages. This is very, very true.

One interesting thing that was mentioned yesterday, and the governor mentioned this, is that the state, because of this terrible shortage, and they have just had their worst COVID wave to date, the fourth wave was the worst. The numbers are still very high. And so they had contracted additional medical staff to arrive. But they couldn`t arrive because they were supposed to come, you know, the day before the storm and the governor has said there weren`t hotels for them. So, this adds to this difficulty. It is a very, very real concern.

HAYES: Dr. Herbert, there`s -- according to some reports, 100 patients that were transferred from one hospital facility in Houma. The CEO of the healthcare system -- hospitals on Luling, Raceland, and Houma have said that their buildings have roof damaged. Do you know at least -- are folks in safe buildings now, at the very least, in terms of -- as we get more information of what happened after the storm.

HERBERT: Yes. They were transported by ground transportation mostly and they are in safe areas right now. Those patients were not critically ill patients. But once again, it`s still -- you know, it`s very disheartening when you have to do that, when you have to move a patient that is on IV fluid, that is requiring dialysis.

This makes this all -- the all the much worse when it comes to looking at this in a microcosm of why is this happening all the time. The infrastructure must be built so that -- it`s not like where you can have levees hold but you don`t have that electricity or you can have electricity and then the levees don`t hold.

This is not a golf game. It`s not like you`re driving and you`re not putting the same in a good way that day. This is real life that we have to do better.

HAYES: Dr. Corey Herbert, Sheri Fink, thank you so much. Stay safe down there. We`re, of course, all thinking about everyone in this forest path.

Turnings investigation into the January 6 insurrection. One mystery may have been solved.


TAYLOR POPIELARZ, REPORTER, SPECTRUM NEWS OHIO: On January 6, did you speak with him before, during, or after the Capitol was attacked?

JORDAN: I`d have to go -- I spoke with him that day after -- I think after. I don`t know if I spoke with him in the morning or not. And I just don`t know. I`d have to go back and -- I mean, I don`t -- I don`t know the that - - when those conversations happen but --



HAYES: After months of homina, homina, homina, we finally have some inkling about what exactly Jim Jordan was talking to Donald Trump about as rioters swarmed the Capitol. That`s next.


HAYES: Back at the end of July, a reporter from Spectrum News Ohio named Taylor Popielarz interviewed Republican Congressman Jim Jordan a week after speaker Nancy Pelosi had vetoed his appointment to the January 6 Select Committee. And what`s truly amazing and great about this interview is how polite but persistent the reporter is in all his questions. He doesn`t get confused. He stays focused. And how shady and dodgy Congressman Jordan is when responding.


POPIELARZ: First off, yes or no, did you speak with President Trump on January 6?

JORDAN: Yes, I mean, I speak -- I spoke with the President last week. I speak with the President all the time. I spoke with him on January 6. I mean, I talked with President Trump all the time and that`s -- I don`t think that`s unusual. I would expect members of Congress to talk with the President of the United States when they`re trying to get done the things they told the voters in their district to do. I`m actually kind of amazed sometimes that people keep asking this. Of course, I talked to the President all the time. I talked to him -- like I said, I talked with him last week.


POPIELARZ: On January 6, did you speak with him before, during, or after the Capitol was attacked?

JORDAN: I`d have to go -- I spoke with him that day after -- I think after. I don`t know if I spoke with him in the morning or not. I just don`t know. I`d have to go back -- I mean, I don`t -- I don`t know that -- when those conversations happen, but what I know is I spoke to him all the time.


HAYES: That`s almost a full minute of Congressman Jim Jordan just squirming as he`s unable to answer this very simple question. Did you speak to Donald Trump on the day of insurrection? It did not stop there. The reporter pressed Congressman Jordan about a number of topics, including whether he`s involved in planning the Trump rally the morning the attack on the Capitol.


POPIELARZ: Did you ever take part in any meetings or discussions about the Trump event, the rally down at the White House that was being planned ahead of time?

JORDAN: It wasn`t at the rally. I didn`t go. I didn`t attend the event.

POPIELARZ: Did you help plan it at all or were you involved in any discussions?

JORDAN: Well, that was done by their -- that was done by their political team I think. I`m not -- I`m not sure who planned it, but I didn`t.


HAYES: The reporter also pressed Jim Jordan on what Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming said about possibly calling him before the Select Committee as a material witness. Well, new reporting today shows Congressman Jordan was on the phone with Donald Trump that day, and you would not believe what they were discussing. Next.



HAYES: On January 6, then-President Donald Trump got a frantic call from House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy. At the time, the mob was reportedly breaking into his office through the windows and McCarthy begged Trump to stop them from over running the Capitol. But Kevin McCarthy was not the only person who pleaded with Trump on the phone call to call off the attack.

Politico is now reporting that as lawmakers were evacuated to a safe room, Congressman Jim Jordan of Ohio was joined by Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida. Together they, and in this Politico reporting, "implored a Trump to tell his supporters to stand down per a source with knowledge of that call."

And asked about the call by Politico`s Olivia Beavers, Congressman Jordan responded, "Look, I definitely spoke to the president that day. I don`t recall -- I know it was more than once. I just don`t recall the times. He is getting very good at that.

The January 6 Committee, this raises important new questions, did Leader McCarthy know about this call when he tried to appoint Jordan to the committee? And will the committee call Jordan and Gaetz to testify given they are now in the center of the insurrection timeline?

Olivia Beavers, congressional reporter for Politico who broke this story. Joyce Vance is a former U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, also co-host of the Sisters in Law, a legal podcast as well as an MSNBC Legal Analyst. And they both join me now.

Olivia, just -- if you can sort of flesh out your reporting here about what we know about this phone call when it happened, what may or may not have been said in it.

OLIVIA BEAVERS, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Certainly, Chris. So, we know that when lawmakers were evacuated from the House chamber, they essentially went into this back room where Congressman Jordan in his cell phone, was trying to reach the White House, was patched in with President Trump, and Matt Gaetz participated in that phone call in what source of knowledge says that they basically were telling Trump that he had to tell his followers to stand down.

The source declined to say what Trump said in response. What was not included in the report is that I was also told -- this source knew also that there were other phone calls made to Mark Meadows after these phone calls. So, we`re kind of getting some clues and details into how Trump`s allies were basically reaching out to the White House as there were rioters trying to break in to the Capitol building.

And it raises more questions about what these conversations and what the nature is and whether any other allies were also trying to call Trump and say you need to say something.

HAYES: I just want to -- just to -- I want to sort of make this subtext to text here for a moment, then Joyce, I`m going to turn to you on a legal question. But just to follow up, Olivia. So, the one theory, right, when -- I mean, we`ve all seen Jordan`s performance. I think as a reporter, you get a pretty good nose for when politicians don`t want to answer a question. You don`t actually have to be professional reporter to see that Jim Jordan. He`s been very squirrelly.

And I think one theory was like, oh, well, he was somehow complicit in this or he was like, cheering it on or something. But what emerges from your reporting, and it`s -- you know, it`s not definitive yet, we`ll find out, is that like, it`s the opposite. He like all sensible people were saying, dude, call off the dogs braying at our doors.

And he doesn`t want people to know that, because if they know that, that implies that he understood as Matt Gaetz did, and anyone with half a brain that the President was obviously responsible in some ways for them being there.

BEAVERS: Absolutely. I mean, the suggestion is that they were trying to say, this is bad, you need to get involved. That was the message to the president that they had. And as to whether or not how the president responded, we still don`t know. But there were frantic phone calls being made, and that (INAUDIBLE) place him in phone call away from other members trying to implore him to, you know, get involved.

And we saw that speech that he made hours later that was basically reluctant, hesitant, and far too late. So, you know the President did eventually speak, but not when these phone calls were being placed.

HAYES: Yes. He said I love you after they bashed a bunch of cops brains. And I want to ask you this legal question, Joyce, because this is fascinating terrain for me. So this is NBC News reporting that the committee is going to ask phone companies for public and lawmakers records. The records of Lauren Boebert of Colorado, Jim Jordan, Mo Brooks, Madison Cawthorne, Matt Gaetz, Louie Gohmert, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Jody Hice, Scott Perry, Andy Biggs, Paul Gosart. It`s sort of the usual suspects there.

What do you -- what do you think about that request? what legal status is it going to have? How much of a fight is that going to be?

JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: There`s a larger question here, because the legal issue that`s unresolved, Chris, is whether a committee like this can subpoena a member of Congress for testimony. And these records are a little bit different from testimony itself. But certainly, we should expect to see these members try to delay the committee`s process by challenging in court whether there`s some sort of extended speech or debate clause protection for these records.

Spoiler alert, I don`t think that there is. I think the law is pretty well established that not everything that a member of Congress does is done in their official speech and debate clause capacity. And we`ve got this interesting tape from DOJ in the civil lawsuit filed against Mo Brooks and the former President and others where DOJ talks about conduct that is outside of the official function because it`s, for instance, electioneering, or one might think that fomenting an insurrection might be outside of a congressperson`s official scope of responsibilities.

So, these subpoenas can go forward. The information that the House Committee will get is probably pretty limited at the outset. It will let them see which numbers were calling other numbers. And that may help them devise a strategy for which witnesses they actually wish to call to speak and take testimony from in person.

HAYES: Just to follow up on what I just said to Olivia, in terms -- I mean, we saw during the inauguration, right -- I`m sorry, during the integration -- during the second impeachment, that there was, you know, the case presented, right? The theory of the case is that if you have people calling the president to say, call off the dogs, the obvious logical entailment of that is that they think he controls the dogs, ergo he`s responsible for them. And that if you show more members of Congress doing this, it just further bolsters that view of the responsibility, whether that`s just ethical or legal responsibility.

VANCE: So, here, we`re talking about political accountability, as opposed to what might be happening up the street from Congress in the Justice Department where they could have an investigation into criminal responsibilities. In terms of creating a public record, I think you`re absolutely right, because if members of Congress are treating the former President as though he had control of the mob, that gives you an awful lot of insight into what they believed.

And it`s important to put people on the record under oath because something we haven`t talked enough about the work of this House Select Committee is that its goal is to build a historical record that people can rely on. Nothing says reliability like putting people under oath.

HAYES: Great point. Final very quickly question. Am I right, Olivia, your reporting indicates there are multiple calls with Jordan and Trump on that day?

BEAVERS: That is what Jordan told me when I asked him about on his phone call with Gaetz. He said that he doesn`t recall when, but he recalls that he has had multiple conversations. And then, he sort of then goes, you know, it probably would make sense that one of those phone calls would have happened in that safe room where they were evacuated. So, he didn`t, you know, directly confirm.

But you know, one other point I wanted to quickly make. I`ve had a few sources saying, you know, if you keep on saying I don`t recall, you could just go back and look at the record so you could start filling in those blanks if you really wanted to.

HAYES: It`s a great point. Joyce Vance, Olivia Beavers, thank you both. Up next, more public officials personally threatened for doing their jobs.


JASON LEFKOWITZ, ANTI-MASK AND ANTI-VACCINE ORGANIZER: The list of all council people`s homes that are voting on the vaccine mandate, OK.


LEFKOWITZ: Whoever votes yes, we`re coming to your door. We`re coming to your home. You want to feel intimidate -- you want to intimidate us? We`re coming to you now.


HAYES: The increasingly violent intimidation being brought to bear on mask policies next.



HAYES: In a big announcement today, the Department of Education`s Office for Civil Rights said it opened investigations into five states that have barred schools from requiring masks among students and staff, Iowa, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Utah.

This investigation is happening amid fierce backlash to mask mandates across the country. The Backlash is growing more and more intimidating and menacing in nature. A few weeks ago in Williamson County, Tennessee, protesters surrounded and harassed public health officials leaving a school board meeting with one man telling an official "we know who you are, you can leave freely, but we will find you."

Yesterday, there was this terrifying display as the Los Angeles City Council looks into a proof of vaccination mandate was put on by Jason Lefkowitz. He`s a comic and server at a Beverly Hills Restaurant turned anti-mask and anti-vaccine organizer.


LEFKOWITZ: The list of all council people`s homes that are voting on the vaccine mandate, OK.


LEFKOWITZ: Whoever votes yes, we`re coming to your door. We`re coming to your home. You want to feel intimidate -- you want to intimidate us? We`re coming to you now. Civil war is coming, people. It sure does.

HAYES: I think he says civil war is coming, people, Mr. Lefkowitz there telling people he`s going to come to their door, a pretty unmistakable threat that he`s offering there. Yesterday at a rally in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, this man, that`s Steve Lynch. He`s a Republican candidate for North Hampton county executive. And he floated this plan for local school boards.


STEVE LYNCH, REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE, NORTH HAMPTON COUNTY EXECUTIVE: Forget going into these school boards bringing data, you go into school boards to remove them. That`s what you do. Forget -- they don`t follow the law. They don`t follow the law. You go in and you remove them. I`m going in with 20 strong men. I`m going to speak in front of the school board and I`m going to give them an option. They can leave or they can be removed.



HAYES: Ruth Ben-Ghiat is a professor of history at New York University, author of Strongmen: From Mussolini to the Present. And she joins me now. I thought -- I thought of you, Ruth, when I saw that clip, because I thought a fairly succinct articulation of if not fascism, and authoritarian violent worldview is you don`t go in there with data, you go in there with 20 strong men, and you essentially threaten them to leave. Like, that`s kind of it in a nutshell, right? In liberal democracies, we like argue about stuff, you tried to persuade people. And in other places, you go in with, "20, strong men."

RUTH BEN-GHIAT, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: That`s right. And these people see themselves as warriors. And they`re -- it`s the Trump and Bannon plan to take back the country. And they`re doing it, you know, board by board, town by town. And schools are going to be are always of interest to authoritarians, because they`re forming the minds of the next generation.

But as for their methods, yes, democracy is about compromise and consensus politics. But these people have learned also from Trump that if somebody doesn`t agree with you, you threaten them into silence, or you lock them up, or you beat them up. And it just shows how much democracy has in civil society as eroded in this country after four years of Trump.

HAYES: Yes, I have to say I`m really both unnerved and disgusted by how comfortable people seem making explicit threats in public. Just -- this is the -- I want to show that -- I referred to this before. I want to show what it looked like when these public health workers in Tennessee got out of a meeting and gotten their cars. This is what they face. Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are. We know you are. You can leave freely, but we will find you. And we know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will never be allowed in public again. You will never be allowed. You will never be allowed in public again.


HAYES: I mean, again, that`s -- that is achieving your political objectives through other means essentially. It means other than speech and debate, honestly, but to try to intimidate people so that they essentially, you know, submit.

BEN-GHIAT: Well, and the key is that they feel empowered. And this is what`s doubly frightening that they don`t care because they feel protected by their peers and by the law. And this is why accountability is so important. And not only we have so many examples of Trump saying things like, you know, oh, in the old days, you could beat people up and get away with it, because authoritarianism is all about getting away with it, and actually altering the laws so violence is protected.

Authoritarianism is when thugs and criminals become the law makers. So, this is -- this is a terrifying trend, but it`s the result of a lack of accountability. And we talked about January 6 and the lack of prosecutions and this is what you get.

HAYES: You know, you can see -- I mean, you see in these images, right? You can see the kind of like, red faced, almost bloodlust that is in the in the sort of instrument of these folks. And I`ve seen tons of footage like this, and that individual, Mr. Lynch. And then you`ve got -- you`ve got this sort of the crowd like kind of asking for it. And then leaders essentially encouraging or sort of wink-wink-nudge-nudge flirting with it.

Here`s Madison Cawthorn who`s a Republican member of Congress facing a crowd saying some really, really disturbing stuff and, you know, kind of going along. Take a listen.


REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R-NC): The big problem is, we don`t actually know where all the political prisoners are. And so, if we were to actually be able to go and try and bust them out -- and let me tell you, the reason why they`re taking these political prisoners because they`re trying to make an example to say -- because they don`t want to see the mask protests going on.

If our election systems continue to be rigged and continue to be stolen, then it`s going to lead to one place and that`s bloodshed. And I will tell you, as much as I`m willing to defend our liberty at all costs, there`s nothing that I dread doing more than having to pick up arms against a fellow American.


HAYES: OK, so just be clear, when he`s talking to the political prisoners, he`s being asked about the folks who are facing legal consequences or participation in the insurrection. He`s asked about busting them out. He then says, you know, if our election continue to be rigged, you`re going to end up in bloodshed. And then he talks about how much he really does not want to take up arms against fellow Americans but that sort of hangs over as a possibility. Like that`s -- I don`t know, man, that`s not good.

BEN-GHIAT: No, and here`s what -- here`s what -- this is propaganda. And he`s mentioning it for a reason. He`s getting it out there in the public sphere because fascist movements have to work hard at the beginning to get people to see violence differently, to get them to see violence as something positive, and as saving the nation as freedom fighters. And this is what the GOP is doing. It`s all -- it`s terrifying.

HAYES: Ruth Ben-Ghiat, thank you so much for your time tonight. I appreciate it. That is ALL IN on this Monday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.