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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 7/9/21

Guests: Angelo Carusone, Ashish Jha, Andy Kim, Wade Henderson, Meagan Hatcher-Mays, Teresa Kumar


Right-wing personalities were outrage over Biden Administration`s door-to-door vaccine push. Rep. Andy Kim donates the suit he has worn on January 6 to Smithsonian. 17 states have already passed restrictive new voting laws controlled by Republican governors and legislature. Toyota will stop donating Republicans who objected to election certification.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Three, three Guinness World Records for juggling basketball, and has some really impressive goals.




AVANT-GARDE: I`m going to -- yes, going to Harvard to play basketball and then maybe going to WNBA or overseas or something before I go into my next thing of like working with NASA or something like that.


REID: Oh, she`s so cute. That is tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN.

BRIAN KILMEADE, CONTRIBUTOR, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: Ask yourself if you have a problem with this. They`re going to knock on your door, they`re going to demand that you take it. This administration is panicking and they`re infiltrating our life.

HAYES: The deadly consequences of right-wing backlash politics is the door knocking starts and schools begin mandating vaccines.

Then, new video of the hand-to-hand combat at the Capitol as we get a date for the first Select Committee hearing.

Plus, what we know about what the Biden administration is planning after yesterday`s voter rights summit at the White House.

And one senator is filling the blank space of Republican ideas with cultural war nonsense.

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): If we have Marxism, you are going to be the first ones who will be cut off. Taylor Swift would be the first victim.

HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Here`s the thing, the way that right-wing politics works in this country is that the main purveyors of it are constantly testing, sniffing out new messages to find what works best to motivate and agitate their shrinking base. They are like truffle pigs for reactionary backlash.

We saw this with Donald Trump. We see it with the host of Fox News who will always follow the base where it leads them. And now we are seeing this play out in those folks mobilization against the vaccine. It seems hard to believe but it was not always this way. Here are the hosts of Fox and Friends back in May talking about getting a vaccine.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand there are people that have vaccine hesitancy, but we all three are vaccinated, and I will tell you when I got it, it was just like, OK, now, exactly.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now I know I`m not going to get it. I`m not going to die from it. If I do get it, there`s a small percentage of chance that you could get it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. But it`s the people who have not gotten the shot which, you know, ultimately, they`re the ones who are in peril.


HAYES: Good for them. Seriously, that`s a good message. I`m glad they told everyone. Hopefully, some people went out and got the vaccine after seeing that. I told you all when I got the vaccine, shared my celebration dance. Rachel Maddow talking about getting the vaccine. A lot of my colleagues and friends and just people across the country posting pictures getting the vaccine. I`ve actually loved that content. I personally feel comfortable talking about it. I was desperate to get it, relieved when I got it. I really think it is protecting me and my family. It`s afforded a peace of mind and also the ability to go back to a semblance of normal.

Looking back now, it`s hard to conceive of that same Fox and Friends clip from May happening now. And that is because as the Republican conservative base continues to view the vaccine through the lens of the roiling backlash politics that`s been cultivated and encouraged by right-wing media, by the Fox and Friends hosts, most notably Tucker Carlson, who night in night out is doing things like comparing the vaccination efforts to eugenics and forced sterilization.

Now, again, this is all being done with a tremendous degree of bad faith because Tucker Carlson will not say whether he`s been vaccinated or not. Ben Smith in the New York Times tried to find out just, you know, asking the question, texting to ask whether he gotten the vaccine. This was Tucker`s reply. "When was the last time you had sex with your wife? In what position? We can trade intimate details?

I`m going to take that as a really weird, yes, I guess. Really? What -- like what`s going on here? What are you hiding? People talk about this all the time. Just ask your colleagues and Fox and Friends. You can just say it. It`s not scary. Instead, the right has started to build up this cult of privacy and personal choice just around the vaccine, which I will note is in direct opposition to their position on abortion in every way.

And they`ve also bought up this coy just asking questions, flirtation, cultivation of anti-vax feeling that is going to lead to more unnecessary death, and it is already doing it. The most recent study says that the accelerated vaccine schedule under the administration saved nearly 300,000 lives, 300,000 lives.

Take a second to just take that in. We lost 600,000 people to COVID. Some number of that was entirely unnecessary. Accelerating vaccinations saved 300,000 lives. As Dr. Ashish Jha, the Dean of Brown University School of Public Health has pointed out. we also have evidence the benefits of vaccination was born out in two states, South Dakota and Vermont. And they demonstrate perfectly the stark difference between the states that have managed to fight back and vaccinate and suppress the virus and those who did not.


Dr. Jha points out that Vermont and South Dakota are actually quite similar. Both have slightly older white rural populations, comparable median incomes. They both have Republican governors. This is not partisan. These days, they look super similar on current infections. Those states are in a pretty good place right now these days. But he explains it is how they got to that place that matters. Vermont has vaccinated more of its population than any other state, nearly three-quarters of population has gotten at least one dose.

South Dakota is right in the middle of states at 51 percent. But because South Dakota and Governor Kristi Noem have followed the Donald Trump get out in the battlefield herd immunity route, and Vermont from the beginning has called the fight the virus and then get vaccinated route, the two states ended up in a sort of similar place in terms of case resistance by the cost of many, many more lives of South Dakotans who did not have to die.

Look at this chart, nearly six times as many people in South Dakota died of COVID as in Vermont. It could have been that curve on the bottom. They didn`t need to die, but they did because of choices that their leaders made. Right now, one of the biggest challenges in the U.S. is the 20 to 35 age group, young people who are inclined to feel invincible, OK.

We know they`re lagging in vaccination, many of these young people go to colleges. And in order to get into those colleges, there are all kinds of things you can and can`t do in college, right? Requiring admitted students to do things before they come to college is part of what goes into colleges. Vaccinations, requiring them as many universities have done, is not crazy. It`s not out of line with a lot of other things. And for a minute, just consider where COVID is most happy.

COVID loves settings with lots of people crowded indoors talking closely to each other, going to bars and clubs, getting drunk, maybe not being super sanitary, and basically I`ve just described a college dorm. Last year, we saw a ton of college outbreaks across the country. In fact, there`s lots of evidence suggesting those outbreaks then spread to the greater community as fall started last year. I want to play you this incredible snapshot of the problem from Miami University of Ohio last fall.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many people are in the house?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like 10 of them just came by that they`re leaving. They`re going somewhere else, so 20.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 20 people inside?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never seen this before. There`s an input on the computer that you tested positive for COVID.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was like a week ago?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you supposed to be quarantining?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That`s why I`m at my house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you have other people here and you`re positive for COVID? You see the problem?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How many other people have COVID?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They all have it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody has it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guys, that`s what we`re trying to prevent, man.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to keep this town open.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why I was staying home. I just walk out to --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, but there were probably seven people -- seven or eight people that left our house when you told them to leave. So, you`re not quarantined if you`re mixing with other people.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, everybody here has it?




HAYES: Yes, officer. I know. That`s why I was having a house party in my house. That`s how I was quarantining. So, all of this to say, if there is one place you would want to mandate vaccines, it would be on college campuses, right? That seems pretty reasonable. And yet, there`s already a proactive right-wing movement in place to make sure that doesn`t happen. Republican governors in Texas, Georgia, Arizona have ordered public universities not to mandate vaccinations of students. Indiana University announced in the spring it will require all students and employees to be vaccinated. 20 Republican legislators lobbied the governor to block the move.

Mitch Daniels the president of Purdue University, also in Indiana, former Republican governor of the state, last April when the U.S. pandemic was still in its first wave, he was the one who was very proudly announcing they were going to open in person in the fall. Mitch Daniels announced his university and more than 45,000 students will not require vaccines in the fall.

Now, I don`t know how that`s going to turn out. I hope well, maybe people are vaccinating already. But again, the principle here is extremely hard to determine. Particularly since this defensive, private bodily autonomy is not exactly a watchword among conservative Republicans when it comes to the extremely high stakes intimate personal health decision of a woman`s pregnancy.

So, it sure seems like the principal is essentially just backlash politics. We perceive that liberals are trying to get you vaccinated which is by the way, not true, so don`t take the vaccine. And it doesn`t have to be this way. It has not been this way for lots of other people, tens of millions of people of all different ideological stripes who voted for all different kinds of people who I probably don`t see eye to eye to on anything. And that`s fine. It`s a big country, people disagree who`ve gotten the vaccine.

Just look at the hosts on Fox and Friends. Again, this is an active choice by an almost incalculably cynical set of political actors to harness the power backlash politics in pursuit of more sickness and more death.


I`m joined now by Dr. Ashish Jha, the Dean of Brown University School of Public Health, which is requiring all students to be vaccinated in the fall. Angelo Carusone, the President and CEO of Media Matters, which monitors and corrects conservative misinformation in the media.

Angelo, let me start with you because again, I don`t spend as much time studying this as you do. But my perception is that there`s been a kind of acceleration towards this view over time, as we`ve gotten further into the Biden administration, of this kind of just asking questions trollingly, you know, opposition to any pro-vaccine moves? Is that -- is that a fair characterization?

ANGELO CARUSONE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, MEDIA MATTERS: That`s exactly right. It has certainly, you know, it started much more just asking questions, opposing public health measures undermining it. But there was a switch in May where Tucker Carlson really started pushing the idea that the vaccine was killing tens of thousands of people, a very, very minor conspiracy theory that was circulating online in the fever swamps. And he plucked it out of there, and gave it a lot of push, and that was really when things started to shift over at Fox News. And since then, it`s just intensified and amplified.

HAYES: I should just be clear here about what he did, because I think it`s worth taking a second to just talk about how dishonest and despicable it was. There`s a public record of vaccine outcomes that`s traced, and millions of people are getting the vaccine. So, some percentage of those people die after getting the vaccine in the same way that some percentage of all people, particularly when you are vaccinating seniors die or get sick.

And they basically -- this started online people taking those examples and saying, look, two plus two equals four, the vaccine is killing people. It`s just like, obviously, like, deeply, deeply stupid, like aggressively stupid to misunderstand that intentionally or not. But that was what was being done, right?

CARUSONE: That`s correct. It was a conspiracy theory. And he did it on purpose. It was intentional. Like he said, a lot of this is intentional. It`s very clearly intentional.

HAYES: Dr. Jha, can we talk about the sort of contours of mandates? Because I -- again, I`ll step -- I`ll sort of hop to the other side and briefly argue against myself, which is that I can see -- I can see ways in which mandates in certain environments might be counterproductive, or they might make people feel like they`re being pushed and persuasion and outreach is probably a better way to go. So, I`m curious what your view is of mandates broadly, and then in the -- in the narrow context of colleges and universities.

ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, so Chris, persuasion is always the first effort. And I think we`ve tried that. And we got to continue trying that. I`m not saying we`re done there. But we are fighting a pretty well organized, very well-funded anti-vax movement that has ulterior motives. It is not trying to promote freedom or choice.

And, you know, for universities, for businesses, they have a very specific choice which is do they want to create a safe environment for their workers to come back? Do they want to create a safe environment for their students? Do they want to have mass and social distancing in class? Or do they want classes back to some version of normal?

And universities like mine, Brown University, our president basically said I want a normal fall. I want a normal semester. And that meant mandating vaccines for everybody, not just the students, but also faculty and staff. That`s what`s going to be essential. I think that`s ultimately what`s going to drive a lot more vaccinations.

Companies and businesses and people are just going to decide they`re tired of all the restrictions and the best way to get rid of the restrictions is to get people vaccinated.

HAYES So, you think -- so, just to follow up on that. And I will say that I went to the university that you are now the Dean of the public health school at. And I remember what I getting mail, my freshman year, saying like, here`s a million things you have to do. Like these are -- these are non-negotiable things you have to do before you come to campus.

Like -- so, It wasn`t like it was like it`s personal freedom, dude. Show up however you want and just do your thing. Like, even at Brown, which sort of values that. But do you think that -- do you think there`s actual like there`s real marginal gains to be made here with institutional mandates, not government ones, but institutional mandates like in colleges and universities?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And look, we can look to like the Houston Methodist Hospital in Houston, Texas that mandated it for his workers. 99.5 percent of workers end up getting vaccinated. This is -- most people who are resisting are not willing to lose their jobs are not willing to lose out on going to college. I think people will do it. We`ve seen this with other mandates from measles vaccines. I think this is how we`re going to get a large majority of people vaccinated is when companies, businesses, hospitals, colleges step up.


HAYES: Angelo, what is driving this I talked about sort of the, you know, the truffle pigs for reactionary politics. I sense that they`re following where people are on this more than leaving them there. But what`s your sense?

CARUSONE: I think that it`s worth keeping in mind here that it`s not just an anti-vaccine, which is somewhat passive in some ways. They`re building something that is actively anti-public health measures of which avoiding the vaccine as a part of it, but it`s also flouting a whole range of other support services connected to it.

And that helps explain what`s behind it, which is that if you think about what happened to the 2020 election, right, Trump`s theory was that he could expand his base by bringing in a couple of new people by going further down into the fever swamps and pulling them in. The theory behind this is that you expand your base by pulling in people that typically were really, really far out on the edges, and so they`re harnessing power on the fringe.

HAYES: Right. That`s an interesting phrase and a useful one. Dr. Ashish Jha, Angelo Carusone, thank you both.

CARUSONE: Thank you.

HAYES: Six months on, the January 6 attack holds a kind of liminal space. I think in our minds. On one hand, it feels almost like it`s continuously unfolding. I mean, particularly in the political context of what huge parts of Republican Party and conservative movement are doing. Just today, the DOJ released brand new footage from one of the most violent battles in the attack. At the same time, it`s a piece of history that we`re trying to understand, recent history.

Just this week, the Smithsonian added a new item to its collection of January 6 artifacts. This blue suit, seen here, worn by Congressman Andy Kim as he stayed late into the night picking up the pieces after the attack. My interview with Congressman Kim and that new video right after this break.



HAYES: Today, just more than six months after the violent insurrection attempt at the Capitol, crews started to take down some of the last security fencing around the building which is really a welcome sight because it should be an accessible place for the public. The Justice Department released more body cam video showing the brutal attack on police, really just mind-boggling, as the police tried to hold back the crowd, keep them outside the building.

In case you`ve been misinformed about the nature of the crowd on January 6, a warning, this video is extremely violent.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to die tonight.


HAYES: You`re going to die tonight is what you heard there. Investigative reporter Scott MacFarlane, NBC News 4 in Washington who`s been tracking all these developments joins us now with the latest. Scott, what`s the context for these new releases of video?

SCOTT MACFARLANE, NBC4 WASHINGTON: Chris, these videos are very important. In the next few days, you`re going to see a number of defendants try to get themselves released from jail pending trial. After half a year, they`re getting particularly uncomfortable there.

Federal prosecutors are submitting these videos to judges to try to hold some of these defendants. These videos just released by court order tonight were submitted in the cases of Jeff Sabol and Jack Whitton. And the videos show according to prosecutors, police being beaten on the front lines dragged into the mob.

These videos were effective. Judges ordered Sabol and Whitton to be held. Prosecutors say Whitton is that man who allegedly said you`re going to die tonight to police. They say Sabol had zip ties with them, steel-toed boots, a radio and an earpiece, and he came ready for battle, upset about the 2020 elections. And in this beating, gave one officer a massive head wound that required staples to fix.

When the officers were dragged into the crowd, prosecutors say, he was stripped of his radio, he was stumped, he was beaten. These videos are visceral to give you a new glimpse, Chris, a new angle, but they`re also very relevant. That`s where we are in these cases, Chris, arguments over who to hold till trial. Trials themselves likely not till 2022.

HAYES: It`s really remarkable to look at this. The only thing I can think of is Game of Thrones because it`s a style of like intensely brutal, essentially hand-to-hand combat that`s happening, just complete melee. And you also see one of the things that, I should just point out, there`s another -- a woman, one of the people at the Capitol, I believe, who has passed out and would be pronounced dead later there.

So, there`s like the crowd is rushing over her as she lays prone. It`s really, really grisly stuff. Scott MacFarlane, as always, great reporting. Thank you.

One of the lawmakers who is inside the Capitol when it was stormed, Democratic Congressman Andy Kim of New Jersey. Late that night, you might remember after the insurrectionists were cleared out of the building, after Congress finally certified the election results, Congressman Kim was photographed on his hands and knees still in the same suit he wore to work helping clean up the damage left behind.

That blue suit has now been donated to the Smithsonian at their request. And Congressman Andy Kim joins me.

Now, Congressman, it`s good to have you. I know you`ve talked about this before. You and I have never had an opportunity to talk about it. And I`ve thought a lot about those images which are -- which are kind of haunting about what was going through your mind that night when you were doing that.

REP. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Thanks, Chris. Honestly, not much was gone through my mind as I was so, you know, still reeling from the day. Everything was very instinctual as I walked around the Capitol just seeing this beautiful room with the rotunda in this gorgeous building, you know, this temple of our democracy, and seeing that room in such shambles with debris and garbage everywhere.

I just remember even cigarette butts put out on statues. I just felt an instinct to do what I can. It was really just trying to right the wrongs as quickly and as tangibly as possible, which is why I did what I did

HAYES: What -- how did this go down? Did the Smithsonian reached out to you about this?

KIM: That`s right. The Smithsonian reached out to me shortly after the insurrection and, you know, asked me about, you know, the possessions that I had on me and requested the suit. And I thought about it. I honestly was pretty caught off guard. You know, if the suit itself it`s not a remarkable suit. It`s a blue suit that I bought to wear to the inauguration. It`s off the rack from J Crew, something I got on sale during the holidays. Never anything I thought that would ever be something that would be at the Smithsonian.

And my actions, honestly, as well were ordinary actions. I was -- there was a mess there at the Capitol and I wanted to clean it up. So, I never really thought that that would be a story that should be told. But I think, you know, talking to the Smithsonian, it was something I realized was an image that gave a lot of people some sense of hope and resilience on an otherwise tragic and dark day in our democracy.


HAYES: You represent a district that is a swing district, I think it`s fair to say. I think it`s also fair to say that you`ll probably have a pretty competitive race. In these midterms, you`ll be I think, what we call a frontline target, I imagine there in New Jersey. What is the mood in your district in a place where your reelection is not guaranteed, where people do have a broad spectrum of political beliefs, as we emerge out of the shadow of the insurrection and the worst of the COVID pandemic?

KIM: Yes. You know, you`re right. I mean, my district is a district that Trump won in 2020 and 2016. I`m one of only seven Democrats left in the entire country that represents a district that Trump won this past year. So, I see this every single day. You know, I was able to outperform Biden by eight points to be able to win this district.

And when I go around this district, what I`ll tell you is a lot of people, they honestly are just sick and tired of just the vitriol and contempt in our politics. Now, they just look at this and just how have we gotten this bad? And how has our country got to this point where we are literally thinking of each other as the enemy.

So, you know, while my district is, you know, a frontline district in that way, considered to be competitive, it is not a battle space. It is not a place where we are waging war against each other. It is actually a place that is sick and tired of just the politics of hate and just, frankly, this addiction to anger that we have as a nation right now.

HAYES: Congressman Andy Kim, represents his district there in New Jersey, thank you so much for your time tonight.

KIM: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, with voter access under siege in states across the country, is President Biden doing enough? What can he do? My next gen guest just met with the president pushing for more action. What he learned next.




KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is about all voters. It`s about all voters. This is not about Democrats or Republicans. This is about Americans. Let`s be clear about that.

And who is prepared right now to stand up for what we say are some of our fundamental values, some of the fundamental pillars to a democracy, to our democracy?

This is the fight of our lifetime. This is the fight of our lifetime.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: At a meeting with civil rights leaders yesterday, Vice President Kamala Harris laid out in stark terms the urgency of the voting rights crisis. This is the fight of our lifetime. You heard her say right there.

17 states have already passed restrictive new voting laws controlled by Republican governors and legislature.

Similar bills are under consideration in dozens of others. And with equal access the ballot under attack in Republican state legislatures across the country, voting rights legislation currently being stalled in the Senate because of a Republican filibuster.

Civil rights leaders are ringing the alarm without major federal reform before the next election cycle. The United States could see further drastic Democratic erosion.

Joining me now is Wade Henderson, he`s the interim president of Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights. He was there for yesterday`s meeting with President Joe Biden and Vice President Harris.

Mr. Henderson, maybe you can just start by telling us about what the meeting was like, what the agenda was and what the exchange was like?

WADE HENDERSON, INTERIM PRESIDENT, LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE ON CIVIL AND HUMAN RIGHTS: Well, thanks, Chris. You know, it`s important to note that it was the president who convened this meeting out of a shared belief that American democracy is in peril, like nothing we have seen in the modern era.

It was the president who recognized that much is at stake for the reasons that you`ve mentioned. And in addition, the Supreme Court`s decision of last week, putting yet again, another hole, gaping hole in the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Those things when taken together pose the greatest threat to American democracy that we`ve seen.

Now, for our part, the civil rights community made clear that we need the president to lead, Congress to act, that we need both to for the People Act and the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, and that they must be done urgently now, time is of the essence. We can`t afford a significant delay.

And certainly, we can`t allow the arcane rule Senate rule of the filibuster to stand in the way of producing important legislation that a majority of Americans support.

Failure is not an option and the president reiterated that as well, as did we.

HAYES: Did the president -- I mean, again, it`s so strange and frustrating to me that I keep ending up in the same place, which is that these high stakes questions about American democracy come back to this like procedural question about the filibuster, but it is the nature of the thing right now.

Did the president indicate anything on that? I mean, that is what it is, right? I mean, there are probably -- I think you can get 50 votes for some modified version of where the People Act and get 50 votes for restoration of Sections 4 and 5 of the Voting Rights Act. I think probably like 51, maybe even 52.

But you can only do it without getting rid of the filibuster and the question is, is the president behind that effort?

HENDERSON: Well, I see -- think certainly the president had heard this. He understands better than anyone, Chris, how the Senate operates. He was a senator for many years. He`s an expert in Senate procedure. He understands what`s at stake, and certainly he`s prepared to use I think his authority to help bring about a change.


HENDERSON: Now, without going into specifics, I think we both agree -- we all agree that failure is not an option and that what is needed will be done to help ensure that these bills become law.

But in addition to what you`ve said about the Voting Rights Act, we also believe that Congress has the ability to repair the damage done from last week`s voting rights decision and Brnovich versus the DNC.

After all, Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1 of the Constitution gives the Congress the ability, equal advantage or allow states to set the parameters for elections in our country. It gives Congress the ability to override that, to establish its own procedures in every way, but for the election or places where senators are elected.

So, from our standpoint, the Constitution is on our side, and we can repair the damage done to the Voting Rights Act based on last week`s decision.

But I think the president understands what`s at stake. And certainly, he`s prepared to give voice to those concerns.

After all, he announced that he is speaking on Tuesday in Philadelphia about these issues. That`s the president`s call. He`s made that commitment to use his power, his voice to make this an important issue for the American people.

HAYES: Yes, I just want to read briefly from the dissent -- Kagan`s excellent dissent in the Brnovich Democratic DNC case, the voting rights case.

He says what is tragic here is the court has yet again, rewritten in order to weaken a statue that stands as a monument to America`s greatness and protects against its basest impulses.

There is something maddening about watching the Roberts Court defenestrate this signature law that really facilitated the first real sustained period of multiracial democracy in our history.

HENDERSON: Oh, that`s absolutely correct. And that`s what`s at issue. I mean, I think what we saw in the 2020 election was the full flower of American`s diverse, Democratic electorate coming to power. And what`s at stake here is something far more important than the partisan divide between Democrats and Republicans. That`s why this issue is so critical.

HAYES: All right, Wade Henderson, thank you so much for joining us this evening. I really appreciate it.

Coming up, defunding the Sedition Caucus. The public campaign that made Toyota reverse course and what it will take to keep them accountable after this.



HAYES: So, in the wake of January 6th and the shock, there was a palpable sense that some lines have been crossed. And we saw a variety of companies and lobbying organizations say they`re not going to give any donations to those Republicans have voted against ceding the electors to make Joe Biden president or they were suspending donations altogether.

Then, two weeks ago, we brought you this story about Toyota. That Toyota actually had a strange distinction and ignoble one that they leave companies in election object your donations.

And then, another story, this comes yesterday. Toyota will stop donating Republicans who objected to election certification.

I wish ALL IN with Chris Hayes segments -- all ALL IN with Chris Hayes segments were that effective, but it was more than that. But it`s significant that they reverse themselves and I think says something significant about the political moment we`re in.

I want to discuss it tonight with our panel with us tonight. Hayes Brown columnist and editor of MSNBC Daily. Meagan Hatcher-Mays, who serves as the director of democracy policy at Indivisible, the national grassroots action group that sprung up after the election of Donald Trump. Maria Teresa Kumar President, CEO of Voto Latino, another grassroots group aimed at empowering and registering Latino voters.

Maria, let me start with you, because you know, you`ve been around D.C. and sort of know -- I think some of the sort of culture of Capitol Hill on K Street particularly.

And it just seems to me like Toyota and a bunch of people, you know, are like new -- memories are short, new cycles move on, we`ll just creep back. And then they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. And it is significant -- and it`s striking to me that they reverse themselves.

MARIA TERESA KUMAR, PRESIDENT & CEO, VOTO LATINO: Well, it`s because they were trying to other it, they`re like, well, it was no big deal. The fact that there was an insurrection on a certified fair election, no one`s paying attention, let me start playing both sides of the aisle because I`m going to need favors. That was basically Toyota`s mindset.

And what the Lincoln Project said, this is different. This is not politics as usual. We are not trying to say that we are preventing you from advancing a policy, what we`re trying to say is that you`re now funding people who don`t believe in our democracy.

And I don`t think that Toyota expected the, you know, that that light we shone on them so visibly, and the fact that they are technically a foreign company, it just didn`t sit well with the majority of I believe, Congress itself, and the American people, and I believe that`s why they stepped back.

But let`s be clear, they`re not the only ones that are funding the insurrectionists. And we have to have a conversation around what is acceptable. And this idea that not funding individuals who don`t believe in our democracy, have a fair -- a fair election, should be a bit of a stark, Chris, and that`s something that we should be able to agree on across party lines.

HAYES: Yes, that -- I mean, I think that`s the key, right? The specialness and specificity of the violation represented in that single vote, which I think was palpable Meagan in the aftermath, but keeping it alive, I think is difficult and partly difficult because look, it`s the majority of Republican members of Congress voted that way. But -- and I think have no regrets about it.

But having people understand that that crossed some line that you can`t recover from unless you ask for forgiveness.

MEAGAN HATCHER-MAYS, DIRECTOR OF DEMOCRACY POLICY, INDIVISIBLE: Yes, and actually, I think keeping it alive is actually one of the concerns I have about kind of pursuing corporate accountability as a strategy. It`s kind of like, yes, I think boycotts work, but they only work as long as the companies feel as though they are being scrutinized by the public. And it`s really hard to expect consumers to maintain like kind of constant vigilance over what company is doing what where, which they kind of have to do this in conjunction with big sweeping reforms.


That`s why we need like a huge campaign finance system that actually works, that has really strict disclosure requirements that, you know, it sets limits on corporate donations and dark money so that we actually know what`s going on.

Because it`s really hard to ask, you know, your average person to, you know, keep in -- keep in touch with what every Fortune 500 company is donating their money to. So, you kind of have to do both things at once for it to really be effective.

HAYES: Yes, I agree. And I think that in some ways, the sort of the issue, the money that Toyota is giving isn`t the thing that are funding these people, right? It`s much more about preserving the taboo, right?

Because, Hayes, that to me -- I mean, the thing I worry about the most, or I think about the most, we cover, obviously January 6th a lot. And you know, it`s important to sort of understand that in its fullness and what it represented.

But if you took that out of the picture, and that never happened, the vote itself is one of the most dangerous, treacherous votes and precedents set in recent American history, honestly. And we see -- you could see coming a million miles away in 2000 -- in 2024.

HAYES BROWN, MSNBC DAILY COLUMNIST AND EDITOR: Yes, for sure. I think that`s what`s really interesting about that vote is that Toyota originally told Axios in a statement when they were called out on their donations that, well, we don`t hold these members to just that one vote as far as giving donation. That`s not our threshold for the level that they will take per as a cut off our money to these candidates.

But I think like that`s something that really tracks with a lot of the people who were casting that vote at the time, too. I feel like it`s really interesting that Republican politics is so much about optics instead of reality at this point, that much like the Texas challenge to the election that when the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court that laughed it out of the chambers. But over a hundred Republicans signed on to the Texas attorney general`s attempt to overturn the election.

And so, I feel like they had that same mindset going into this vote for certification. This idea that, well, wasn`t matter, Biden will still become president. I`ll look good in terms of my, you know, constituency, but it didn`t turn out that way.

And so, it`s become this black stain on their record that I really think that made them we`re not expecting. I think corporations who are placing basically bets with their donations through their political action committees on who`s going to win, they spread it across both parties for that reason, they weren`t prepared for how serious that one vote really was either.

They`ve yet to really process what that vote against certification really means and but now I feel like they are going to really get the message.

HAYES: Yes, and I think there`s a real benefit to staying vigilant about this. Crew has been tracking the money that has been going into the -- into the pockets of this -- the 147 members. You can see that, you know, the donations went away and then they`ve come back from January one to the end of May. And that of course includes the, you know, the NRCC and NRC which of course are sort of broad committees across the entire party.

But you know, those folks are back -- at some level, back to normal and that really is the problem.

I want you guys to stick around. I want -- I also want to hear your respond to just an incredible, incredible tour de force bit of sound from Senator Marsha Blackburn on her attempt to describe why when the Marxist revolution comes, Taylor Swift will be first up against the wall. I`ll play you what she said, next.




SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): When I`m talking to my friends who are musicians and entertainers, I say if we have a socialistic government, if we have Marxism, you are going to be the first ones who will be caught off because the state would have to approve your music.

And you know, Taylor Swift came after me in my 2018 campaign, but Taylor Swift would be the first victim of that because when you look at Marxist socialist societies, they do not allow women to dress or sing or be on stage or to entertain or the type music that she would have.


HAYES: Yes, ever think about that, Taylor? I bet you haven`t. Hayes Brown, Meagan Hatcher-Mays and Maria Teresa Kumar are still with us.

So, here`s the thing that I love about that clip. And something that I feel like is actually broadly representative, is that, honestly, I think that the huge animating grievances of the conservative movement right now are cultural.

They don`t like the fact that Taylor Swift is a liberal and they don`t like the fact that corporations treat Black Lives Matter and they don`t like the fact that there are commercials about you know, racial equality and they don`t -- they don`t like the fact that they feel that the commanding heights of American culture are occupied by people who are not them.

And they`re not even wrong in that way. In some ways, like the cultural sensibilities of people who do occupy the commanding heights of American culture are not MAGA heads by and large, but there`s no actual political solution for it.

And so, there`s this very weird mismatch, which is that all of the animus is riled up about the fact that like, Taylor Swift is not a conservative, but there`s nothing you can do about it. There`s no law you can pass, there`s no policy.

So, you have this very weird thing where like, the actual fuel for the grievance is completely detached from any actual policy program you could ever imagine.


HAYES: And so, Hayes what you get are like the fight these constant battles about critical race theory in school or Hollywood or woke capital or whatever, because that`s the thing you`re mad about and there`s no solution for it.

BROWN: I mean, they could try to pass laws about all of these things. I mean, they`re trying to pass laws against critical race theory, but keep running up against the First Amendment.

HAYES: Well, that`s right -- that`s right, yes.

BROWN: -- against the freedom of speech.

HAYES: Yes, good point.

BROWN: So, they keep trying to -- they want to have this world where they can be socially, very conservative, and fiscally, who even knows anymore. But it there`s no way to turn that into any sort of policy agenda.

And so, you have them ranting about things like socialism. And apparently there have been no communist women artists ever, which was really confusing from Senator Blackburn.

And I just don`t know where they`re trying to go with this. Except they think that these cultural grievances will push them into power, help them stay in power, because it`s shared -- this revanchism is shared by the people who they want to vote for them.

And then once they`re in office, they`ll stay in office because they`ll be able to say, well, I guess there`s no socialism here. So, we`re doing a great job? Question mark.

HAYES: I also find the endurance of socialism Marxism as the -- as the focal point of the attack, like truly wild and somewhat baffling. Mo Brooks was at I guess CPAC. They decided to do two CPAC this year. He was -- I just saw a speech of him in Dallas, you know, warning about Marxism.

And like, I think about my departed grandfather, God bless him, Roger Hayes Sr., staunch anticommunist, big right winger. But you know, he was around when like, there was the Soviet Union and the Cold War. It`s just it`s wild to me that this has continued down through the generations as such a central talking point, Meagan.

HATCHER-MAYS: That`s right. And actually, like, just on the merits, I don`t think that Taylor Swift would be the first in line in the Marxist revolution. I think that she`s built up a lot of goodwill. I think that, you know, she`s somebody who --


HAYES: True. She would -- no, she would.

HATCHER-MAYS: I`m sure as your viewers know, has spent the last two years trying to reclaim ownership of her labor or her songs in this case.

But you`re right, I mean, it feels like there`s this a really big wheel of fortune that conservatives spin once a year and decide what cultural grievance they`re going to bring up again.

Actually, speaking of critical race theory, when I was in law school back in 2012, I took a critical race theory class, and we were reading Derrick Bell and Kimberle Crenshaw and all this.

And at the time, a big scandal that the right was trying to whip up was that Barack Obama in the 90s had hugged Derrick Bell and was going to bre - - usher in this wave of like critical race theories in schools.

And so, they kind of spun the wheel again, landed on critical race theory again, and they`re just going to keep doing it.

It`s a great Boogeyman for them because they don`t have to define it. And anything that they don`t like can just be critical race theory.

So, Taylor Swift is critical race theory, this, you know, voting is critical race theory. Anything that they don`t like, Harry Potter books, whatever, that`s all critical race theory and that fits very neatly into this gigantic jug of grievance.

And it`s very easy for them, because they haven`t really been able to get attacks on Joe Biden or other Democratic leaders to stick.

HAYES: That`s -- that is such a perfect point, though, about Biden. And this is the other weird thing, I think about the right discourse and the political discourse in the country right now is, at this point in the Obama presidency, there was so much focus on Obama. He riled up the base, he was -- and the -- and the tea party was like a vow to Barack Obama.

Now, it`s like they don`t -- there`s not a black man whose president so they have to go create like one of those like little Voodoo avatars, and name it whatever critical race theory because that will whip up the the frenzy honestly that they`re looking for because Joe Biden does it, Maria.

So, again, we`re having a bunch of like, sequential controversies whipped up to credit fuel that white backlash that can`t find its object and Joe Biden in the way that it found it in Barack Obama.

KUMAR: And I think Chris, if this wasn`t done in a vacuum where it was only conversation, then, I think it would be easier to shrug it off.

But what Blackburn just did was that she created an amplification of her disinformation that folks are airing, and it actually gets into our psyche.

And at the same time, what we see what`s happening in Washington and at the local level of the disenfranchisement of people of color, and people who espouse these ideas and progressive policies, that`s where the danger happens.

Is that, one, there`s an amplification of this misinformation that clearly, Taylor Swift was not going to be the target of Marxist society because Blackburn`s opponent was not Marxist, he was a Democrat.

At the same time that, amplification does get into people`s inability to distinguish with whether or not the Democrats are socialists, number one.

But at the same time, these -- the Republicans are actively trying to disenfranchise a vast majority of Americans who do espouse progressive policies, who do believe in climate change, who do believe that we should be talking about race and recognizing that there is implicit bias. And so, that`s the challenge.

It`s not that they don`t have power, they have a lot of power and they`re using it in very strategic ways that we will fall victims to if we don`t sound the alarm and say, the house is on fire.

HAYES: I`m now imagining what a Taylor Swift actual struggle session would look like. I`m trying to conjure that and think about it over the weekend.

Hayes Brown, Meagan Hatcher-Mays Maria Teresa Kumar, thank you all for joining us.

That is "ALL IN" for this week. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.