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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 7/27/21

Guests: Jim Clyburn, Adam Schiff, Adam Serwer, Barbara McQuade, Anthony Fauci


Today, more than six months after the attack on the Capitol, four officers who were on the ground in the line of fire on January 6 bore witness to the truth on the Select Committee hearing in Congress. U.S. Capitol Police officers are testifying today about a truly ridiculous press conference held by Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, Matt Gaetz of Florida, Louie Gohmert of Texas, and Paul Gosar of Arizona. The CDC announces today that all Americans, including those who are fully vaccinated, should wear a mask inside of areas with high transmission of the virus.


TIFFANY CROSS, MSNBC HOST: Ever. And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN.

HARRY DUNN, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: It was an attack carried out on January 6 and a hitman sent them.

HAYES: The true horror of the insurrection.

AQUILINO GONELL, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: I was more afraid to work at the Capitol than my entire deployment to Iraq.

HAYES: The nature of the crowd and their supporters.

MICHAEL FANONE, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER: The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful.

HAYES: And the demand for accountability.

DANIEL HODGES, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: I need you guys to address if anyone in power had a role in this.

HAYES: Tonight, damning testimony from officers on the front line as Trump supporters attack the Capitol.

Then the Republicans who take democracy seriously.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): This cannot continue to be a partisan fight.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Do we hate our political adversaries more than we love our country and revere our Constitution?

HAYES: And the clown show that was chased away from their own press conference. Plus --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can tell you, the folks back home were done with mask.

HAYES: Once again, the CDC revises the mask guidance. Dr. Fauci joins me to explain why when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. You know, I find that these days, it is so important to simply bear witness to what is true, to say what it is we clearly an unmistakably seen from our own eyes. And that`s because it feels like there`s a constant effort by so many forces to make us doubt ourselves, to make us doubt what we know we have seen, to make us doubt what we know to be true.

That is especially important with regards to January 6. We all watched what happened that day. We`ve seen the footage of it for the past six months, read the pleadings in court. And yet there has been this insidious attempt to erase and rewrite what happened. It`s been a barrage of lies from Donald Trump on down about how January 6 was a big party with a bunch of harmless loving people.

Today, more than six months after that attack on the Capitol, four officers who were on the ground in the line of fire on January 6 bore witness to the truth. They saw what they saw. They know what they know. And they would not let anyone deter them from telling those simple facts about the horrifying unprecedented battle to protect the Capitol.

One of those officers who testified today at the first hearing of the House Select Committee investigating January 6 is someone we`ve had on the show, Michael Fanone. Officer Fanone began his career with the Capitol Police feeling called to serve in law enforcement after the September 11 attacks.

A nearly 20 year veteran of the Metropolitan Police Department in Washington D.C., Fanone is an officer who works in plainclothes. The majority of his works in special units involving things like narcotics or violent crime where he has worked undercover and as a lead case officer.

Today, Fanone said that he thought prior to January 6, he had seen it all many times over. But he did not expect the attack that day. When you heard the commotion, he raced to put on his uniform for the first time in nearly a decade, and went out to the Capitol.

Part of what you see here are footage from his body camera. Officer Fanone was grabbed, beaten, tased by riders who also attempted to take his firearm. He lost consciousness, transported to the hospital where doctors said he had suffered a heart attack. He now suffers from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. But as Officer Fanone told the select committee, he was also unprepared for the ensuing storm of lies.


FANONE: What makes the struggle harder and more painful is to know so many of my fellow citizens, including so many of the people I put my life at risk to defend are downplaying or outright denying what happened. I feel like I went to hell and back to protect them in the people in this room. But too many are now telling me that hell doesn`t exist, or that hell actually wasn`t that bad.

The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. My law enforcement career prepared me to cope with some of the aspects of this experience. Being an officer, you know your life is at risk whenever you walk out the door, even if you don`t expect otherwise law-abiding citizens to take up arms against you. But nothing, truly nothing, has prepared me to address those elected members of our government who continue to deny the events of that day, and in doing so, betray their oath of office.



HAYES: Michael Fanone`s fellow officer at the Metropolitan Police Department, that`s the D.C. Police Department, Daniel Hodges, also testified today. Just 32-years-old, Officer Hodges is a member of the MPD Civil Disturbance Unit. On the morning of January 6, his unit was assigned to maintain high visibility near the President`s park where of course the president at the time, Donald Trump, was speaking at a rally.

Early in the afternoon, as the riot began, they were ordered to respond to the Capitol where this utterly horrific scene took place. Officer Hodges is the man you see here being crushed in a doorframe as he attempted to keep the mob from entering the building. Officer Hodges described those people as terrorists, and he told the committee about the many attacks they waged on him and his fellow officers.

They threw a heavy object at him hitting, him in the head and making him disoriented. Another attempted to gouge out his right eye. And yet some of those terrorists claimed to be supporters of the police.


HODGES: Terrorists, we`re scaling the scaffolding on both our sides of the tower that was in front of us and attempting to breach the waist high metal fencing. That was the only barrier we had aside from ourselves. The sea of people was punctuated throughout by flags, mostly variations of American flags and Trump flags.

There was Gadsden flags. It was clear the terrorists perceive themselves to be Christians. I saw the Christian flag directly to my front. Another read Jesus is my savior, Trump is my president. Another, Jesus is king. One flag read, don`t give up the ship. Another had crossed rifles beneath the skull, emblazoned with the pattern of the American flag.

To my perpetual confusion, I saw the thin blue line flag, a symbol of support for law enforcement more than once being carried by the terrorists as they ignored our commands and continued to assault us.


HAYES: Members of the Capitol Police were of course the first line of defense on January 6 and some face some of the worst attacks. Like Sergeant Aquilino Gonell who immigrated to the U.S. when he was 14 years old from the Dominican Republic, and was the first in his family to graduate college. He joined the Capitol Police after serving in the Army where he was deployed to Iraq.

From time to time, he would volunteer to travel on IED-infested roads to conduct supply missions, and yet he says he was more afraid of the Capitol on January 6 than any point in Iraq. Sergeant Gonell sustained injuries to both his hands, his left shoulder, his left calf, and his right foot in the course of the day defending the Capitol. At one point, he too was crushed by writers and can feel himself losing oxygen. He told the committee he remembers thinking this is how I`m going to die.

Today, Sergeant Grinnell described the emotional and physical anguish he felt finally coming home to his family at the end of that awful day.


GONELL: I arrived at home I nearly 4:00 a.m. on January 7th. I had to push my wife away from me because she wanted to hug me. And I told her no, because of the all the chemical that I -- my uniform had on. I`m sorry.

I couldn`t sleep because the chemical reactivated after took a shower and my skin was burning. I finally fell asleep two hours later completely physically and mentally exhausted. Yet, by 8:00 e a.m., I was already back on my way back to the Capitol. And I continue to work for 15 consecutive days until after the inauguration.


HAYES: The other member of the Capitol Police testifying today was Private First Class Harry Dunn. He`s a 13-year veteran the force. Officer Dunn grew up in the suburbs of Washington D.C., joined the Capitol Police after graduating from James Madison University with a master`s degree.

On January 6, as rioters breach the fencing at the Capitol, Officer Dunn Ramsey action wearing a 20-pound steel chest plate and carrying an M-4 rifle. And his testimony today, done describe the vile racial abuse he and other black officers endured from Trump`s mob. And a warning here, the language used is shocking. We felt however, it was important to play Officer Dunn`s own testimony as he spoke it uncensored.


HARRY DUNN, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: I told him to just leave the Capitol. And in their response, they yelled, no man. This is our house. President Trump invited us here. We`re here to stop the steal. Joe Biden is not the president. Nobody voted for Joe Biden.


I`m a law enforcement officer. And I do my best to keep politics out of my job. But in this circumstance, I responded, well, I voted for Joe Biden, is my vote not count. Am I nobody? That prompted a torrent of racial epithets.

One woman in a pink MAGA shirt yelled, you hear that guys? This nigger voted for Joe Biden. Then the crowd, perhaps around 20 people joined in screaming, boo, fucking nigger. No one had ever, ever called me a nigger while wearing the uniform of a Capitol Police Officer.

In the days following the attempted insurrection, other black officers share with me their own stories of racial abuse on January 6. One officer told me he had never in his entire 40 years of life, have been call a nigger to his face. And that streak ended on January 6.


HAYES: Now, these officers are all veterans. They`ve all been around the block. You can hear in their voices, however, see in their eyes. None of them had ever dealt with anything like this before because nothing like this has ever happened in America, honestly. That kind of scene, no crowd anywhere is allowed to engage in hand-to-hand combat with police officers for hours, cursing at them, beating at them, trying to kill them, threatening to take their guns.

I mean, I`ve covered crowds that were on the threshold of some kind of violent action, and they have been tear-gassed or chased out or had rubber bullets fired at them. What happened on the steps there for hours, there is no precedent for what happened. And for what they endured that day.

The third-ranking Democrat in the House of Congress is Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, and he joins me now. Congressman, let me just first start by getting your reaction to what you saw today in that committee testimony.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): I saw four patriots, four public servants, four people who take apart the work they have undertaken, to help, protect, (INAUDIBLE) of whoever did it. This Capitol building that is held in such high esteem. They saw it under assault and they thought it was their responsibility to do what`s necessary to preserve this building, to help perpetuate this democracy. And it`s a shame that they have been so disrespected all in just silliness, the kind of stuff that you will never believe adults would adhere to.

And so, I listened to the aftermath of that, not able to see the hearing in real-time because I was conducting a similar error hearing for the Select Committee on the Coronavirus, but I have watched those tapes since. And I believe that it would be in the best interest of this committee to continue its pursuit of the truth. We`ve got to find out who and why. We know what when and where. You got to find out who and why.

HAYES: I wanted get your reaction particular to the testimony we played from Officer Dunn there. That`s not the kind of thing that we play on television very often and understandably, I think, but I`ve heard people calling the question oh, when you say the crowd was white nationalist or it was a white nationalist insurrection, people say what are you saying? And that testimony from Officer Dunn which was corroborated by a lot of black officers about what they faced on that day, and as someone who`s worked in that building for many, many years, and worked on the project basically of creating American multiracial democracy in its current form, what do you feel when you hear that testimony from Officer Dunn?

CLYBURN: Well, you know, I`ve always said that people`s experiences are the -- are the best teachers. I know Officer Dunn`s experience. I have experience much of what he`s talking about in this hearing. And I can tell you, it`s not a good feeling. But you don`t give up your pursuit. You try to do what is necessary to bring people around to what`s in the best interest of this country.


And I know Officer Dunn, in spite of this experience, we`ll continue to do what is necessary to help make this country a better place. Our hope my Republican colleagues will take heed, and do what is necessary to join in our pursuit of the truth. For Kevin McCarthy to take all of his Republicans off of the committee says to me, he hate the truth. He doesn`t want to hear or see the truth. And that doesn`t make any sense to me. That betrays everything that this country stands for.

HAYES: Yes, Kevin McCarthy, along with Mitch McConnell, a whole bunch of other Republicans today were asked questions about the testimony and the hearing. You know, a lot of versions of I didn`t get a chance to watch it, I was busy doing other things. It seems quite evident that the approach to this is to either sort of attack it in bad faith or to just pretend it`s not happening.

And I don`t -- can you imagine any other Republicans essentially putting their shoulder to the wheel behind this effort other than the two who were on the committee or is it sort of been polarized in precisely those lines?

CLYBURN: Well, I think it`s been polarized. I really believe that this is part of a much broader undertaking. And that`s why this committee is so necessary. You know, I spent four years in the southern governor`s office. And I can tell you that there is a lot of work to be done here. We`ve got to get to the bottom of this because I think that all that you`ve seen today, as bad as it is, there`s much, much more to be uncovered in this. There`s much, much more truth to come out.

HAYES: Congressman Jim Clyburn of the state of South Carolina, third ranking Democrat in the House of Representatives, thank you so much, sir.

CLYBURN: Thank you for having me.

HAYES: Much more to come tonight, including committee member Adam Schiff on what the officers want them to do when we return.



DUNN: I use an analogy to describe what I want is a hitman. If a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. But not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person who hired them does. There was an attack carried out on January 6, and I hit sent them. I want you to get to the bottom of that.




HAYES: Today was the first day of hearing for the community to investigate January 6. And while there are only two Republicans on the committee, what we saw today felt much more actually bipartisan than I think it would have been if the folks who originally had been named the committee like Jim Jordan of Ohio and Jim banks of Indiana had actually been there.

And they were both picked for the committee by Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, and then rejected by speaker Nancy Pelosi. So, instead of a wrestling match or, you know, Benghazi part 900, today we got actual Republicans, conservative Republicans, Liz Cheney of Wyoming, Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, just they`re taking the investigation seriously.


CHENEY: If those responsible are not held accountable, and if Congress does not act responsibly, this will remain a cancer on our constitutional republic, undermining the peaceful transfer of power at the heart of our democratic system. We will face the threat of more violence in the months to come and another January 6, every four years.

Will we adhere to the rule of law? Well, we respect the rulings of our courts? Will we preserve the peaceful transition of power? Or will we be so blind and by partisanship that we throw away the miracle of America? Do we hate our political adversaries more than we love our country and revere our constitution?

KINZINGER: You guys may like individually feel a little broken. You guys all talk about the effects you have to deal with and, you know, you talk about the impact of that day, but you guys won. You guys held. You know, democracies are not defined by our bad days. We`re defined by how we come back from back from bad days.


HAYES: When Speaker Pelosi chose Liz Cheney and then chose Adam Kinzinger over the objections of their own Republican Party, it was pretty unprecedented. We -- you know, we go through the record. You can`t quite find a perfect precedent for it. But I think today showed it paid off. Today`s hearing was informative, it was respectful, it was genuinely bipartisan, and honestly, really seems like everyone is better off for it.

I want to bring in one of the Democratic members of that committee, Congressman Adam Schiff of California. And first just start on that. There was a lot of back and forth and a lot of beltway press, sort of second guessing of what went down with Kevin McCarthy`s appointments, three of the -- two of them being sort of blocked by the speaker and then this, you know, arrangement that you ended up with. But to me, it felt like I was transported into like a different universe today. And I didn`t long to go to the alternate universe of Jim Jordan up on the dais. How did you feel as a member of that committee?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): Well, it`s interesting that you had introduced the segment this way because that was exactly my feeling walking out of that hearing today, which is my God, we got to hear from the witnesses. All the committee members, Democrats and Republicans were interested in getting to the truth. They were interested in what the witnesses had to say was about them and their experience.

And it was so breath -- you know, breathtaking in that it was how hearing shouldn`t be done. So,yes, very different experience than if we had the McCarthy disrupters on the committee. And I think it was a tribute to these officers, the way it should have been, we -- that we heard what they had to say.


HAYES: I want to play something that Congresswoman Cheney said. She has been very clear about subpoenas and the use of those subpoenas. She even mentioned today the possibility of members of Congress being called as witnesses. Here`s what she had to say. Take a listen.


CHENEY: Congressman Jordan may well be a material witness. He`s somebody who was involved in a number of meetings in the lead-up to what happened on January 6, involved in planning for January 6, certainly for the objections that day, as he said publicly, so he may well be a material witness.


HAYES: Can you imagine calling members of Congress as witnesses in this committee?

SCHIFF: I can. You know, I think that all of the members are determined to get to the truth and follow the evidence where it leads of people with relevant knowledge of what went into the planning of that violent attack on the Capitol. They may very well beat material witnesses, as Liz Cheney has to say.

So, no one is off the table. And, you know, at the end of the day, if we`re going to produce a comprehensive report that makes recommendations about how to protect the country going forward, we can`t afford to say, we won`t look at this area. We`re going to willfully have a blind spot. So, yes, we`ll go where the evidence leads us.

HAYES: I have to say, and I don`t know if you`re going to be able to answer this, honestly, on the record on TV, but I`ll ask it anyway. In my conversations with members of Congress, both on air and off, on the record and off and in my reporting on this, you always come up against this sense from people that there`s more to that day than we currently know and that they kind of know, there`s more than we know, but can`t say anything about it. That is what I have encountered.

Now, that might not be true, it might not -- It might be. Why does that keep coming up? Why do I keep getting that sense in every interaction that I have reporting on that day?

SCHIFF: Well, I`m not going to give you that sense, Chris, because I really have a lot of unanswered questions. And I have pre-determined conclusions. But you know, I will say this. Those insurrectionists, many of them, they believed what they were doing was ordered by the commander in chief. They believe that the election had been stolen. And a lot of my colleagues in Congress that were pushing the big lie, no, it was a lie.

And in that sense, they`re as culpable as anyone because they understood that they were laying the foundation for, you know, a real diminution of our democracy, a breakdown of our institutions. But in terms of whether we already know significant facts that are not public, I can`t say that I do. We`re trying to find out just in the Intelligence Committee before the select committee what do the intelligence say, why were we so ill-prepared, and we still don`t have the answers.

HAYES: There was a development today for the Department of Justice pertaining to Department of Justice policy about former Trump administration officials testifying before the committee. Now, normally, this is sort of zealously guarded by the executive. They tell -- tend to take a very broad interpretation of executive privilege, and not love Congress calling around them.

But a letter today to a former acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen saying the extraordinary events in this matter constitute exceptional circumstances warranting an accommodation to Congress in this case. That`s about the possibility of testifying. How important is that to your committee?

SCHIFF: Oh, it`s very important. It means that one of the major obstacles that we encountered over the last four years and getting answers may not be an obstacle. That is, there may be people in the Trump administration that we need to testify, and they may fight it. But we won`t be fighting the Justice Department at the same side at the same time.

And if it does go to court, we will have the Justice Department making the argument with us, not against us. So, that`s huge. And you`re right, it doesn`t come easily, it doesn`t come naturally to the executive branch that wants to preserve even the possibility of a privileged someday. So, I consider that a very, very good sign.

HAYES: All right, Congressman Adam Schiff, who is on that committee, we`ll be hearing more from you in the weeks and months ahead. Thank you very much.

SCHIFF: Thank you.

HAYES: Don`t go anywhere. Much more to come ahead.


DUNN: There`s even a sentiment that`s going around that says everybody`s trying to make January six political. Well, it`s not a secret that it was political. They literally were there to stop the steal. So, when people say it shouldn`t be political, it is. It was and it is.




SGT. AQUILINO GONELL, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: We got people right now in front of the Justice Department asking to release some of the very same people to be released. Even though we are testifying about the trauma and the agony. Everything that happened to us is pathetic and they shouldn`t be elected officials anymore.



HAYES: That clip we just played there is one of the U.S. Capitol Police officers testifying today about a truly ridiculous press conference held by Representatives Marjorie Taylor Greene of Georgia, Matt Gaetz of Florida, Louie Gohmert of Texas, and Paul Gosar of Arizona.

All the four officers who are testifying about the savagery they experienced on January 6th, Congressman Gaetz and his cohorts held their stunt event outside the Department of Justice in support of the mob that stormed the Capitol.

When a small group of protesters showed up, they managed to shut the whole thing down after only a few minutes led by a person seemingly very interested in Matt Gaetz`s criminal investigation.


REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): They owe the people of this country the answers to the questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got to go. We need a break. (INAUDIBLE) press conference, we need to end it.

REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): Thank you. For those of you that really care about the process. Thank you.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you a pedophile?





SCHIFF: Is this America what you saw?

DUNN: Everybody even sitting at this table for the different battle that day, but it was all for the same war. And as Black officers, I believe we fought a different battle also.

And the fact that we had our race attacked and just because of the way we look, you know, to answer your question, frankly, I guess it is America. It shouldn`t be. But I guess that`s the way that things are.


HAYES: It`s a question of course that fame civil rights organizer Fannie Lou Hamer, we were talking about her last night and asked nearly 60 years ago, is this America, or Black people need to fight to be treated as decent human beings. And as officer Harry Dunn testified, the answer is still obviously, yes.

Adam Serwer is a staff writer for The Atlantic Empire and Barbara McQuade is a former federal prosecutor in the Eastern District in Michigan and they both join me now.

Adam, you know, I couldn`t get over the fact of how much race and racial animus and racial hatred and racism hung over the day. And I thought this - - I want to play what Officer Hodges, who was himself is white, said when he was saying here`s why I call these folks white nationalist. There`s an anecdote in there that I found really, really telling. I wanted to get your reaction too, so just take a listen to what Officer Hodges had to say.


DANIEL HODGES, OFFICER METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: The crowd was overwhelmingly white males. Usually a little bit older, middle aged, older, but some younger. They didn`t say anything especially xenophobic to me but to my Black colleagues, and anyone who`s not white.

And they would -- some of them would try to -- try to recruit me. One of them came up to me and said, are you my brother?

There are many known organizations with ties to white supremacy that had a presence there, and there are like Three Percenters, Oath Keepers, that kind of thing.

And everyone I`ve ever -- people who associate with Donald Trump are far more likely to subscribe to that kind of belief system.


HAYES: That moment there, Adam, where someone tried to recruit him, are you my brother, that just was one of the most sort of jaw dropping moments to me the whole day.

ADAM SERWER, THE ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER: Yes, look, I mean, there`s a version of American nationalism that has always held that this is a white man`s country and should remain a white man`s country and the police, until 1965, were charged with enforcing that belief in much of the country.

So, it`s not surprising that, you know, a few short decades later that there would be people that not only still believe that but want the police themselves to believe that and think of the police as the political arm of what they believe to be true America, white Christian America, the real America, the America that deserves to win every election, regardless of whether or not they win the most votes.

HAYES: One of the things that was so surreal to me about today, Barbara was, you know, we are a year plus after the killing and murder of George Floyd, the protests afterwards, the backlash to those protests.

And here you have this scene in which, you know, the sort of worst nightmare that Donald Trump and his political allies painted of the country was that there would be this unruly mob overrunning police officers.

And here you have the thing actually happened in front of our eyes being interrogated with these officers as multiracial group of officers, while the Republicans sort of put their fingers in their ears.

BARBARA MCQUADE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes, in fact, we heard some of the officers say that. You know, people who claim to support law in order are the very ones who are denying that this happened. Who are portraying the crowd as ordinary tourists or a loving group.

I think that the officers today did an excellent job of debunking some of those myths, talking about their injuries, talking about the weapons they saw, and also debunking any claim that this was Antifa or that this was Black Lives Matter supporters or that this was the FBI who was at the Capitol that day.

They said, no, these were Trump supporters. They were there to stop the steal because Donald Trump asked them to.


HAYES: And that point that -- I mean, I thought it was such an important moment, Adam, that Officer Dunn said when he said, they keep saying I tried to make it a political issue, because this was fundamentally political, inescapably, unavoidably political.

And, of course, it wasn`t, of course, that`s why Republicans don`t want to talk about it, because the leader of the Republican Party whipped up a violent mob to stop the peaceful transfer of power. That`s what happened.

SERWER: Yes, I mean, there`s no question that it`s political. It was a mob that was there to overturn the result of a Democratic election, because the person that they didn`t want to win won. I mean, how could it not -- and how could it not be political?

And the officers by resisting that political effort became traitors to the mob, because their obligation -- in the mobs` eyes, their obligation was to uphold that racial hierarchy that they subscribe to, that they were expressing to the officers themselves.

And when they -- when they refused to uphold that hierarchy, when they instead chose their oaths to the Constitution of the United States, rather than to this ethno-nationalist version of the United States that the mob subscribed to, they became traitors to the mob.

And that, you know, fundamentally, is an expression of the choice here between an America that is Democratic, that recognizes the actual outcomes of elections. And one that you know, is the exclusive provenance of one particular ethnic and religious group.

HAYES: I think that`s exactly right. I wonder what you think, Barbara? I know, you`ve written about this, and obviously, someone with a long history in criminal investigations.

This sort of investigative portfolio here today was incredibly -- I thought incredibly important in just sort of setting -- the level setting of like, what the reality was that day. But there remain, I feel as someone who`s covered this full time for six months, so many things I don`t -- I feel like I just don`t have a good handle on.

MCQUADE: Yes, and I completely agree. You know, today was the beginning, but certainly not the end. And I think that even the officers in setting the stage as you said, raised some important questions that needs to be answered.

Why were they so terribly outmanned that day? So, I think we need to examine the intelligence failures. I mean, I think most of us who pay just a little bit of attention to the news knew that there would be a very great risk of danger that day at the Capitol. And yet, somehow, the FBI didn`t know that. I think we need to look at that.

I think we also need to look at why there was such a drastic delay between the time they realized things were out of hand at the Capitol, and the time the National Guard actually showed up to provide that relief and clear the capital.

And then I think we also have to take a look at was there an organized effort to be there that day? We`ve seen some charges of some small conspiracy groups, like the Oath Keepers and some others who conspired to obstruct an official proceeding, the vote count, but those are small groups.

Was there anybody taking a bigger picture, organizational role in funding this, as well as inciting it? And so, I think those are some of the big themes that remain to be explored by this committee.

HAYES: Finally, Adam, you know, the thing I kept finding about that as I`m listening to their officers talk about this as, you know, I`ve reported on protests a lot and there`s never been anything like what happened to the Capitol because no other crowd of protesters is ever allowed to get anywhere within spitting distance of what that crowd was allowed to do.

SERWER: Well, you know, we`ve had incidents like this, not -- maybe not as bad, but we`ve had incidents like this, you know, at other state capitals. And throughout American history, there have been forms of political mob violence that have been intended to overturn the results of Democratic elections.

But even in this committee, uncovers nothing new, it is actually significant for the mere purpose of setting down an official record of what occurred and why it occurred. If that is the only thing that the committee does, then it will have been worth it.

Because what you`ve seen over the past, you know, seven months is an effort by Trump and the Republican Party to rewrite the history of this incident, why it happened, who was there and why they were there.

And if all this committee does is set down a historical record that lasts into the future that establishes beyond a shadow of a doubt, the intent behind this attempt to overthrow a Democratic election because the mob view the voters who supported the rival candidate as fundamentally illegitimate and naturally American.

If it only sets down that record, and uncovers nothing else, it will be worth it.

HAYES: Adam Serwer who is author of The New York Times bestselling The Cruelty as the Point, which you should check out in bookstores or wherever you buy your books right now and Barbara McQuade, thank you both for making time tonight.

MCQUADE: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Still to come, Dr. Anthony Fauci on the surprise announcement to the CDC today, why vaccinated people are being urged to mask up again. That`s next, don`t go anywhere.



HAYES: So, once again, Centers for Disease Control has changed its guidance on masks and COVID. The CDC now says announcing today, all Americans, including those who are fully vaccinated should wear a mask inside of areas with high transmission of the virus, which according to the CDC community transmission map, which highlights areas of high transmission red, appears to be a whole big swath of the country.

To help explain this change in policy, I`m joined by Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and Chief Medical adviser to President Joe Biden.

Dr. Fauci, Dr. Walensky was saying that at the announcement today that this was based on data they`ve been collecting sort of in real-time about Delta variant transmission. So, what`s the data? And what about the data pushes towards this is the policy recommendation?


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: OK, there are two aspects, Chris. One, we know that the Delta variant is considerably more efficient in transmitting from person to person than the original Alpha variant that we have been dealing with, number one.

The Delta variant is the totally dominant variant now in this country, more than 80 85 percent, and in some regions it`s 90 plus percent.

But even more importantly, it is clear now, that when there are breakthrough infections, namely people who are vaccinated, but still get infected with the Delta variant, which happens because no vaccine is 100 percent, effective. We`ve learned clearly now without a doubt, that people who are vaccinated get a breakthrough infection actually have enough virus in their nasal pharynx, that they can actually transmit it to other people, and have documented transmitted to other people.

So, because of that, the virus has really changed. And that has really triggered the change in the CDC guidelines.

So, right now, the way you correctly said, that even if you are vaccinated, you need to wear a mask in indoor public settings in the areas that have a high degree of transmissibility, namely the orange and red areas of the CDC designation.

HAYES: So, when we spoke about the decision by the CDC to say you didn`t have to mask indoors if you were vaccinated, the key driver there was data about virus transmission amongst those who was vaccinated and you were on the program and there was a little bit of a question. We knew that in -- the in the testing for the clinical trials in a real-world testing, this was doing a very good job of preventing severe illness and hospitalization. There was more question about whether you had viral load to transmit.

The data came back saying you don`t really and that it`s OK to be indoors. Now, I -- so, I guess the data is just different with Delta. But do you understand why people might feel a little whipsawed between the last announcement and this one?

FAUCI: Yes, it`s thoroughly understandable. But there really is a pretty clear explanation of it. And here are the data. When you go back 60 days of the two months ago, when you look at the level of virus in the nasal pharynx of a person who`s vaccinated and gets a breakthrough infection, it was considerably less than the level of virus in the nasal pharynx of an unvaccinated person, the data were clear.

Now, that we have a Delta variant, that has changed the entire landscape. Because when you look at the level of virus in the nasal pharynx of a vaccinated person who gets a breakthrough infection with Delta, it is exactly the same as the level of virus in a unvaccinated person who`s infected. That`s the problem.

So, those data are very compelling. And that triggered the change in the CDC guideline.

HAYES: That is fascinating to me, because I know, basically nothing about medicine. But I guess my intuition would be that the viral load would correlate to severity of illness. And what I`m hearing from you is that like, you`ve got a situation in which Delta is producing a higher viral load and higher viral load shedding by orders of magnitude of the data we have is to be believed, and yet, not leading to severe illness in the way that you would fear, right?

FAUCI: Right.

HAYES: That the big fear was that you`d have -- that it would essentially evade the vaccine.

FAUCI: Right, Chris, you nailed it, because that`s exactly what it is. That the antibody response, the immune response that your body makes, that needs to block virus in the upper airway needs to be much more powerful than the immune response that protects your lungs.

In other words, you need a lower level of protection, the lung is more easily protected then the upper airway. We know that from animal studies, it`s very, very clear.

HAYES: So, I guess the last point here is, do you feel like you should -- there`s a kind of meta communicative point to make here, which is, this stuff`s going to change. Like, this is a fairly dynamic situation and is going to continue to be where not -- it`s not like we`re going to just kind of turn the page on coronavirus, because there might be new variants and there might be different seasonalities and just, you know, that`s going to be part of life.

FAUCI: Well, Chris, it doesn`t have to be. If the overwhelming majority of the people in this country get vaccinated, we could nail this down by just crushing it.

The problem we have, Chris, that you and I have discussed multiple times on your program, right now, we have a hundred million people in the United States who are eligible who are not getting vaccinated. That`s the problem.


HAYES: Yes, look at Vermont where they are at 85 plus percent I think and they have crushed this thing, that could be all of us.

Dr. Anthony Fauci, as always, thank you, Sir. Appreciate it.

That is ALL IN on this Tuesday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now with Ali Velshi in for Rachel. Good evening, Ali.