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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 6/24/21

Guests: Faiz Shakir, Jennifer Rubin, Chris Murphy, Danya Perry, Michael Daly, Adam Schiff


This afternoon, President Joe Biden walked out to the White House driveway surrounded by Democratic and Republican senators to announce they have a bipartisan legislative deal on infrastructure. Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT) on the new bipartisan infrastructure deal. 99 individuals are unaccounted for after a building in Surfside, Florida collapse. Rudy Giuliani, the former mayor of New York City, gets his law license suspended for spreading the big lie. Speaker Nancy Pelosi announces a select committee to probe into the Capitol riot.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: And maybe it will spark changes to a really toxic system much in need of reform. Free Britney. And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let`s just sign in the bipartisan bill and forgetting about the rest I proposed.

HAYES: The President reaches a tentative deal on infrastructure as Republicans keep moderating on policy while radicalizing against democracy. Then, Democrats move forward on their own investigation into the Capitol insurrection after Republicans blocked a bipartisan commission.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): They wanted to make it about Black Lives Matter. That wasn`t what happened on January 6. Plus, Rudy Giuliani gets his law license officially suspended for lying about the election.

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER PERSONAL LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: What they did should be a problem for them. They should be investigated.

HAYES: And nearly 100 people still missing in Florida after the collapse of a 12-story condo building. The latest on the desperate search and rescue effort when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. You know, it`s the kind of thing we really do not see happen often anymore. This afternoon, the President of the United States, President Joe Biden, walked out to the White House driveway surrounded by Democratic and Republican senators to announce they have a deal, a big bipartisan legislative deal on infrastructure.


BIDEN: This reminds me of the days we used to get an awful lot done up in the United States Congress. We actually worked with everyone. We got a bipartisan deal and bipartisan deals means compromise.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you confident that you`re going to have all of the Democrats` support in the Senate?

BIDEN: (INAUDIBLE) but it does feel good.


HAYES: Now, we`re going to get into the details of the deal which includes $579 billion in new spending on new projects across the country in a somewhat complicated to-track strategy in which Democrats would also pass a supplemental package alongside that. In fact, I`m going to talk to Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut about all of that in just a moment.

But first, I just want to take a step back to put this deal in context with a very strange politics of this particular moment. Back in the beginning of February, you know, after the insurrection and sort of taking in the aftermath of the election, I published this piece in The Atlantic in which I made the argument that the Republican Party was radicalizing against democracy even as it was moderating on some core elements policy. And the events of the past few days have, I think, borne out that thesis.

I mean, remember, just 48 hours ago, I was sitting at this desk talking to you, right? Senate Democrats attempted to expand voter access to create a kind of nationwide floor of voting rights standards. And that bill, the For the People Act faced uniform, total opposition from Republicans who used the filibuster to block it. Not a single Republican would vote to even start debate on the bill.

And Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell made it clear that there`s basically nothing Democrats can do to ever get any Republican support on any part of that bill. Certainly, not on things like for instance, changing the standards for partisan gerrymandering, or even reinstating the parts of the Voting Rights Act that the John Roberts Supreme Court gutted.

I mean, let`s keep in mind, this is the same Voting Rights Act which was last reauthorized in 2006 with a massive bipartisan majority in the House and a unanimous vote in the Senate. In fact, the person who got all the Republican senators to vote for it was then-Majority Whip Mitch McConnell. That same voting rights act now faces essentially implacable Republican opposition.

So, that`s what I mean by radicalizing against democracy. And we`re watching this radicalization happen at the state level, of course, where Republican-controlled governments are passing restrictive voting laws. Multiple states are now trying to follow Arizona`s lead and launch and audit the 2020 election results.

In fact, new polling, get this, shows 46 percent of Republicans, almost half, believe it was appropriate for Republican legislators in states where Joe Biden won to just ignore the popular vote and to try and assign their state`s electoral votes to Donald Trump. That is about as radicalized against democracy as you could possibly get.

Now, two days later, what do we have in the White House driveway? We have an old-fashioned sausage-making infrastructure deal announced on the White House driveway with a bipartisan group including 11 Republican senators.

How do we make sense of this? Well, the Republican Party`s ideology on core matters of governance has dissipated into incoherence. I mean really core questions about political economy specifically right? Free enterprise and the market are so detached from the actual material interests of its base. Those policies that they`ve been championing forever, right, tax cuts for the rich, you`re on your own economics, they become so unpopular. They have been surely but slowly walking away from it all at least in rhetoric and messaging.

Because here`s the thing, they`ve lost the ability to rile the base, the current base, the Trump base. They`ve lost the ability to rile them up on those core issues anymore. It doesn`t work. The base doesn`t care. I mean, compare that, right, to where we were 12 years ago, and the unrelenting backlash against the Obama stimulus which came in response to the Great Recession.

In 2009, the American Recovery Act, which was less than $1 trillion was passed with zero Republican votes in the House.


JOHN BOEHNER, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: For a bill that was supposed to be about jobs, jobs, jobs, has turned into a bill that`s all about spending, spending, and spending.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Do you know that in this porkulus bill, it has been learned, in addition to everything else, illegal immigrants will also be given checks.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: I look at this as smother the private sector in terms of a stimulus package. I don`t see this as a stimulus package.

GIULIANI: And if you think you`re going to get your way out of this recession by all kinds of social programs, welfare programs, you just going to make it much worse.


HAYES: Right. Oh, the immigrants getting free checks, welfare, social programs. Look at Barack Obama just spending that money around. OK, compare that to back in March when Joe Biden signed the COVID stimulus package, right, because for the second time in two transitions, a Democrat had to take over from a Republican that left the Republican ruins, right?

So, apples to apples comparison, Biden passes the American rescue plan, right? No Republican votes. I`ve barely heard a word from Republicans about that package twice as big as a stimulus, nearly $2 trillion package that passed on a party-line vote in the Senate more than three months ago. I`ve haven`t heard a word except to praise aspects of it. They want their constituents to take advantage of it. There`s nothing there to mind.

What riles up the Republican base now is fear of multiracial democracy, cancel culture, George Floyd protests, Black Lives Matter, censuring Dr. Seuss, critical race theory, constant, constant moral panic about the threat of those other people who either do not look like you or do not share your values taking power and wielding power the way that they dominate the institutions of American life outside of politics. That`s what it`s about. That culture war, whose culture it is, whose America it is, is what the base cares about.

They could give about inflation or taxes or even welfare. I mean, all this stuff that`s been tried and true Republican reactionary rhetoric for literally decades, all the rhetorical fire has moved away from the deficit down to some random school superintendent in Maine after his district dared to denounce white supremacy after the murder of George Floyd. Now, those are the kinds of lines Republicans cannot cross, but spending hundreds of billions of dollars on infrastructure, whatever, no problem.

Then, of course, I mean, we got to talk about the obvious, right? The additional glaringly obvious aspect of all this, when you compare the first six months of the last Democratic president`s administration to this one. Barack Obama faced total opposition on the right from the outset. Now, Joe Biden is faced a lot of opposition too, but there`s just no universe as someone who covered this from Washington D.C. up close in which 11 Republican senators would have come out, posed on that driveway to strike a deal like this with Barack Obama in his first six months in office. No universe. The hatred of Barack Obama was so boiling hot from the base.

The base doesn`t hate Joe Biden. I mean, we`ve seen it over and over since the campaign when T-shirt vendors at Trump rallies couldn`t sell any derogatory Joe Biden shirts. The Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton stuff, however, that`s still sold like hotcakes. Boy, look at those three faces, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Joe Biden.

Now, what could it possibly be about Joe Biden that does not inspire the same visceral ire of the Republican base that doesn`t render him toxic and threatening in the same way as those other two figures? Joe Biden, the 78- year-old white man is not a living embodiment of the existential threat that the Republican base fears. And that existential threat, that fear of the country being governed by people other than them broadly construed, that`s what they really care about. The rest, they couldn`t care less.

Faiz Shakir is a senior adviser to Senator Bernie Sanders, formerly a senior advisor to Democratic Senator Leader Harry Reid. Jennifer Rubin is an opinion columnist at The Washington Post. And they both join me now.

Faiz, let`s talk about your view of this as someone who is in -- working in Democratic staff circles back during those days of the Obama campaign. Like, do you agree that that picture in the driveway was an impossibility under Obama, and for some reason is not now?

FAIZ SHAKIR, SENIOR ADVISER TO SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Yes. They certainly made it almost impossible for Obama because of the way in which they demonized him personally and as I think what you`re driving at that that was not an individual that they could ever strike a deal with, right? They kind of tore him down to the point where if you ever did anything with a llama, it would just be toxic.

And so, I tend to agree with a lot of your thesis there, Chris. But I think the only thing I would quibble with a little bit is if you look at the state level, right, we`re trying to differentiate Republicans here.


SHAKIR: If you look at the state level, they are certainly cutting SNAP benefits, they are cutting employment benefits. They are still engaged in that kind of ideological struggle against the working class. But you`re right that at the national level, they`re still adhering to Trump ideology and taking their cues from a Trump party.

HAYES: Yes, and it`s a good point. And I don`t want to oversell the point because it`s -- look, they still want tax cuts for the rich. They`re still not -- like, they don`t want a broad safety net. Like, all of that vestigial kind of ideologies here.

But what I think happened, Jennifer, with Barack Obama as the first black president, all of that was operating the visceral level. So, they -- you know, the Tea Party was talking about the deficit. But that`s not what they were talking about. But you could -- you could nicely fuse the concerns of the donor class in the Chamber of Commerce with the base and say deficit and spending and everyone got it. Like, oh, the immigrants are going to get checks. Trump sort of pry those apart and said, just talk about the like, you don`t like immigrants and all that spending stuff. He`s like, detach the signifier from it. And now it`s hard to get it back.

JENNIFER RUBIN, OPINION COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: I think that`s exactly right. Listen, the Republicans still engaged in donor maintenance. That`s why they wouldn`t raise taxes even on people that pay zero taxes. They aren`t going to go near that. But that`s not the base. Those are the donors. Those are corporate overlords who keep them afloat in election cycles.

You`re right. They don`t really have much to say about anything else. And although they opposed 100 percent the American rescue plan, again, on this kind of old style thinking. As soon as it passed and became very, very, very popular, they started touting it as you said. They couldn`t say enough about -- good things about the restaurant revitalization program. They were telling their constituents to get out there and get them -- getting when it`s good.

So, I think there is some schizophrenia. Listen, they`re not going to give up on deregulation because again, that`s their corporate overlords. They`re not going to give up on tax cuts for the rich. And let`s also remember that there are a whole slew of social issues on which they are even worse than they used to be. And I would say abortion is one of them.

HAYES: Absolutely.

RUBIN: They are criminalizing abortion in state after state. Now, you can say that`s part of the state apparatus, but really, that`s the federal Republican Party as well. So, it`s a really mixed bag. But if you want to put that in the bin of cultural issues that are going to light the bass on fire, I guess you could slot it that way. But on guns, for example, on women`s rights, they`re no more moderate than they ever were.

HAYES: Totally.

RUBIN: Not at all.

HAYES: No, I totally agree with that. All of that is maximalist zealotry on all those issues. On sort of this core kind of political economy like government spending -- I mean, the thing I keep thinking of, again, you know, we`ve got this big -- this big spending package today, right? I mean, the thing I`m thinking about, Faiz, as we get blocked by Sherrod Brown the other night about the child tax credit, right, the fundable tax checks credit, great social program. I mean, there`s a world of Republican reactionary politics that I myself have covered as a younger reporter where they would be talking about it all the time. It would just be this constant welfare shaming, they`re sending checks, everyone`s going to be lazy. And it`s just not there anymore. I mean, and I think it`s been taken other arsenal partly because the base wants the checks.

SHAKIR: Yes, right. We suffered through the pandemic. Inequality -- I mean, if you just look from Obama to now the inequality suffered by people is far more painfully real in people`s lives. And so, it isn`t going to be as easy to get out there and talking about welfare Queens and, you know, people on free rides etcetera, etcetera, when they need that school meal program and they need that child tax credit, they need that unemployment benefit just to get by. It`s not going to be easy politics for them. They become far more detached on economic issues from where the people are.

And you`re right to say that, you know, Donald Trump brought up a full populism on economic issues to the -- to that party that they I think they`re still trying to grapple with and figure out how to how to deal with it because it doesn`t naturally flow with their ideology.

So, instead you have them trying to figure out how to extract things out of Joe Biden. Will you do a gas tax? Will you -- will you impose some of our conservative privatization schemes? How about -- how about we get you to be the Trojan horse to try to push our conservative agenda?

HAYES: Jennifer, quickly. I mean, the other part of this is what I said in the end there is like, Joe Biden, I consumed a lot fair amount of right- wing media. He does not inspire rage and contempt the way that Obama and Hillary Clinton did. I mean, just flat out, it`s pity, he`s a bumbling old man, he`s not competent, he`s being manipulated, but it`s not raging contempt. You can`t get lock him up, lock him up chance going. And that makes a big difference too, I think.

RUBIN: It absolutely does. Now, you can attribute that to some longevity in Joe Biden that a lot of these people know him and he was out there glad- handing Republicans he served for in decades. But in point of fact, you`re exactly right. He`s an old white guy. He does not come with a foreign- sounding name.

And so, they take out their venom on women of color who have been nominated for appointments in this administration. Those people they will demonize. Those people they will (INAUDIBLE) but not Joe Biden.

HAYES: Oh, yes. To compare the coverage of the Vice Presidents to the President, it`s very, very clear. Faiz Shakir and Jennifer Rubin, thank you both.

SHAKIR: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, so there`s -- we`re still going to talk about the deal here, right? There`s something bothering me today because I`m not entirely sure what to make of the deal itself, which I`ve just sort of talked around in that first block. You`ve seen, right, President Biden had an announcement that he and this group of bipartisan senators have reached a deal on infrastructure. But I can`t actually tell if this is a huge win for the Democrats or if they just got rolled by Republicans. I`ll ask Senator Chris Murphy what he thinks next.


HAYES: OK, so today`s bipartisan infrastructure deal is a -- is a strange move in certain ways because it appears as if either President Joe Biden and the Democrats are just massively rolling the Republican Party or they are massively getting rolled. I can`t figure out yet which is which. All right, let me explain.

Back -- the last day of March, right, the White House unveiled their very ambitious infrastructure plan at a cost of $2 trillion paid for in part with raising the corporate tax rate among other things. Now, Republicans immediately said no chance. But a group of Democrats most notably Senator Joe Manchin in West Virginia said he did not want Democrats to use the 50 vote straight majority reconciliation process to just go it alone and pass the Biden plan as they had done with the American Rescue Plan. Instead, Manchin and a few others wanted to see if a bipartisan deal was possible. So, they started negotiating with Republicans.

OK, as this was happening, the fear among progressives was always been that a bipartisan deal would be much smaller and crucially, most crucially, not include a lot of the most vital climate and green energy investments of that original proposed $2 trillion package. And so, the choice has this been playing out appear to be OK, pass a big ambitious climate centered bill through reconciliation, needing only Democratic votes, right, 50 plus one. Or pass a smaller bill much more focused on roads and bridges that leaves out most of the climate stuff but can overcome a filibuster with 10 Republican votes because you strike a deal.

What is strange about what happened today is the White House and a bipartisan group of senators announced the smaller deal. It`s definitely the smaller deal. But also, President Biden, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Manchin all committed to having a reconciliation bill alongside it to basically pass the stuff that got left out, a kind of cake and eat it too approach.


PELOSI: We will not take up a bill in the House until the Senate passes the bipartisan bill and an emphasis -- and a reconciliation bill. If there is no bipartisan bill, then we`ll just go when the Senate passes a reconciliation bill.

BIDEN: I expect that in the coming months this summer before the count -- the fiscal year is over, that we will have voted on this bill, as well, the infrastructure bill, as well as voted on the budget resolution. And that`s when they`ll -- but if only one comes to me, I`m not -- if this is only one that comes to me, I`m not signing it. It`s in tandem.


HAYES: Senator Manchin also told me she knew that this to stretch strategy for infrastructure is "the only strategy we have and that reconciliation is inevitable." Here`s how former Harry Reid staffer Adam Jentleson put it. Still many unknowns, but if the bipartisan piece is just a sidecar to the larger reconciliation package, as the Pelosi plan and Biden`s statement suggest it is, then this is effectively one big bill and Republicans are just giving Democrats bipartisan sprinkles on a progressive Sunday.

That`s the hope at least. But man, I don`t know what to think. And again, what matters way more than anything more than who wins or loses or whatever is simply this, whether we get the scale of climate investment we need to forestall doom and hit the Paris Climate Agreement targets.

Senator Chris Murphy is a Democrat of Connecticut, and he joins me now. I tooled with that script a lot because I was trying to explain the messy process. Senate process is really like, the tar pit of cable TV news, but here we are. What is your understanding of what happened today?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Yes, you expect me to decipher this for you, Chris. I`m humbled.

HAYES: Well, it`s your job, Senator. This is what you do for a living.

MURPHY: So, listen, I think you were getting it right near the end of that monologue in that -- listen, the bottom line is, are we making a difference in people`s lives and you are not if you aren`t solving the climate crisis. You can build all the infrastructure you want, but if the planet is on fire, it`s not going to do much good 20, 30 years from now.

Similarly, in my state, we need infrastructure. We need better roads and rails and bridges. But if folks can`t afford childcare to get a job, then they can`t even sniff the train station. So, it is true that there`s a sizable group of us in the Senate who have made clear to leadership and the White House that we`re not going to entertain this smaller bipartisan package unless we are also moving forward on a budget reconciliation bill that pluses up some of the accounts in this bill they`re too small, passenger rail for instance, that includes significant climate legislation and attacks some of these issues with which prevent people from ever getting to the infrastructure which brings you to work like a lack of childcare.

And I was buoyed by what, you know, Speaker Pelosi said what the President said today, and even what some of my conservative colleagues in the Democratic caucus said. It does appear that we`re, you know, on track to be able to consider this package developed with Republicans and also consider a significant additional bill that will do all those other things.

HAYES: OK. I almost feel like I want to -- I don`t want to do this on camera, but that`s too late now. It`s like, part of me wants to pretend that I find this outrageous and that the reconciliation part is making me furious as liberal. But like, why are the Republicans going to go for this? Like, if this is the plan -- if the plan is to have your cake and eat it too and like, pass this one thing, but then all the other things they don`t like get past a reconciliation, like, what am I missing about why they`re going to vote for it?

MURPHY: Well, so right, I`m definitely the wrong person to answer that question but I can certainly engage in reckless speculation. And I guess my guess would be this. As Jennifer Rubin said in your prior segment, Republicans, you know, were kind of uncomfortable in voting against the American Rescue Plan and then not being able to go out and take credit for it.

HAYES: Good point.

MURPHY: They did it nonetheless. But, you know, there are a bunch of Republicans, not all of them, but many of them, you know, who actually do want to be able to go out and trumpet projects in their districts --

HAYES: That`s a great point.

MURPHY: And so, for many Republicans, this is an ability to, you know, put their name on a package and then be able to disavow parts -- other parts that they may not be as comfortable with. So, there is an ability for Republicans to have their cake and eat it too as well here.

HAYES: Well, that`s a great -- that is -- that is a great point and I hadn`t thought of it that way. And I think that I have been so locked into the zero-sum thinking which is McConnell-ism insurer, right? I mean, the McConnell -- the sort of McConnell theory of the case, from the first days of Barack Obama is that like, there are no win-wins to be had. That if you`re -- if the opposition party is successful in driving its agenda, that makes them more popular and it hurts you, right?

Prior to him, there was more of a sense, and not always, but a little more of a sense of like, you can find stuff that everyone gets a win out of, right. And so, what I`m hearing view is like, look, there are people that want to be able to vote for an infrastructure package and go home and say like that -- we built that bridge there.

MURPHY: Yes. And listen, I think there is a question as to whether McConnell has as much control over this caucus as he did, because you can certainly make that argument that if you are only looking at the politics of this, if all you care about is the defeat of Joe Biden, then you should sort of sit on the sidelines for everything.

But it may be that after four years of Trump, there are a bunch of Republicans who are actually interested in legislating, and that McConnell is no longer able to persuade all of his caucus to sit on the sidelines. And you`re frankly seeing that all over the place, Chris.

HAYES: It`s weird. I know.

MURPHY: I mean, you`re seeing an announcement today on police reform legislation. I`m still at the table on a background checks bill. You know, there`s more sort of conversation at the grassroots happening between the two parties than I`ve ever seen before. And I don`t know if that`s because Mitch McConnell was sort of winning the argument in the caucus.

HAYES: It`s a great point. And I think also, you know, I talked to senators a lot. I`ve been talking to senators. Like, I think even Republicans didn`t love coming in to pass judges and do nothing else. I mean, you know, I just -- and just as almost at a level of like, what am I doing with my life, I think there`s some of them that want to do something, feel like they`re making an impact.

MURPHY: Yes. It`s also not -- shouldn`t be lost on us that a bunch of the Republican senators that are in a lot of these discussions are not running for reelection.

HAYES: Yes, great point.

MURPHY: And maybe in the short run, that is also accruing to our benefit, you know, fast forward to the Senate that replaces this one. Without people like Rob Portman and others, things may look differently.

HAYES: All right, Senator Chris Murphy, thank you for decoding that for me. I appreciate it. Still to come, Rudy Giuliani`s commitment to the big lie catches up to him. Why New York suspended his law license. That`s tough.

Plus, the latest from Surfside, Florida where a 12 story condo collapsed overnight. Nearly 100 people are still unaccounted for. Vaughn Hillyard has the latest next.


HAYES: Nearly 100 people are still missing after a high-rise condo building near Miami Beach partially collapsed overnight. Officials say at least one person died, at least 10 others were injured. Surveillance Camera recorded the moment the building collapsed early this morning. I want to warn you, it is really disturbing to watch. The lights go out as the building false.

NBC News reporter Vaughn Hillyard is at the scene in Surfside, Florida with the latest. Vaughn, what have we learned?

VAUGHN HILLYARD, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good evening, Chris. This morning, there are two individuals that were pulled from the rubble. But ever since the sun rose here over the Miami Beach area, no other individuals have been recovered at this time. Authorities, they just held the press conference in which they said that there are 99 individuals that are unaccounted for at this time. That doesn`t necessarily mean that 99 are missing, but there were 55 units that collapsed at this condo complex here behind us. And they essentially went from unit to unit assessing how many individuals are typically there overnight. And that`s where they got to that 99 number.

The hope is that there`s a number of folks that are snowbirds, potentially leaving unoccupied condos. But what we know here is over the course of the last 13 hours that the rescue crews have been unable to recover any individuals from the rubble. We saw a difficult circumstance here this afternoon in which there was thunderstorms. There was also a fire within some of that rubble that led to a of smoke that overtook the area for about an hour.

The governor was here earlier today, as well as Senator Marco Rubio and Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz. They just took part in that press conference here just a few minutes ago. They announced that there is an emergency declaration and President Biden, the federal government, have sent FEMA resources here.

This last press conference here this evening, Chris, was the last update we will be receiving this evening. They said crews, these rescue crews here overnight will continue to work hoping that there are some individuals that are beneath that rubble and there is perhaps a pocket of oxygen reaching some of these individuals. Those crews, they will be working overnight. We expect the next update to come though at 8:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, Chris.

HAYES: All right, fingers crossed. Obviously, that`s a really, really brutal scene. Vaughn Hillyard in Surfside, Florida for us tonight, thank you. I really appreciate it.

Coming up, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announces there will be a select committee to investigate January 6. Adam Schiff on what we can expect ahead.

And Rudy Giuliani, the former law and order mayor of New York City gets his law license suspended for spreading the big lie. That story next.



GIULIANI: I have it sign in front of my desk, so let`s pretend it`s here right now. I had it there when I was the mayor. I keep it with me now. I`ll put it there when I become president. It says, I`m responsible.


HAYES: Throughout the years, the ever-humble Rudy Giuliani has insisted he is a man of law and order, a man who is above reproach.


GIULIANI: Nothing disturbs me more than to see all of the revelations of crime committed by some of the most powerful and some of the wealthiest members of our society.

I do think that the work in my office and other parts of the Justice Department has changed the definition of the problem of crime in America.

We`re held together by law. And we`re held together by respect for the law. That`s what America is all about.

I think I`ve had both the open transparent government and an open transparent life and it allows you to lead them with honesty and truth.


HAYES: Giuliani has maintained that self-righteous sanctimonious position despite having his home and office raided by federal agents earlier this year. He has been open about his contempt for the man who preceded him as Donald Trump`s personal lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen.


GIULIANI: He`s been lying for years. I mean, the tapes that we have demonstrate any number of very serious lies by him back a year and a half ago, including his fooling people, hiding tape recordings telling them they weren`t recorded, lying to their face, breaking faith with him, taping his client which is a disbarrable offense.

HAYES: Well, today, Giuliani who is in danger of being disbarred. A New York appellate court just suspended his law license after finding "there`s uncontroverted evidence that responded communicated demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers, and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump and the Trump campaign in connection with Trump`s failed effort at reelection in 2020.

Speaking outside his Manhattan home on the 35th anniversary of the day Trump`s original lawyer and fixer Roy Cohen was disbarred, Giuliani called this suspension ridiculous and tried to position himself alongside Michael Cohen, the man he once demonized.


GIULIANI: Somebody`s got to fix this double standard justice system which is not America anymore. I mean, it`s only Trump lawyers who have their offices raided. It`s only Trump lawyers who get penalized without anybody hearing their side of the case.


HAYES: Only Trump lawyers. What do they have in common? As a columnist in New York Daily News and staff writer from New York Magazine, Michael Daly chronicles decades of nefarious incidents in the checkered political career of Giuliani. Giuliani even once referred to Daly as public enemy number one.

Michael Daly is now a special correspondent for The Daily Beast. DanyaPerry is a former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York which Giuliani once ran. She was one of the signers of the complaint that led to Giuliani getting his law license suspended today. And both join me now.

Danya, let me start with you. If you could just tell us what the complaint was, and what the kind of technical legal -- you know, legal ethical finding here is.

DANYA PERRY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Sure. So, the allegations here were of a pattern of false and misleading statements made to courts and to the public in general. And the allegation here before the grievance committee was that these were not only false and dishonest, but actually threatened imminent public harm, and that they were continuing and that there was no likelihood that they would stop, and that this was actually an offense in a danger to the rule of law in this country.

So, this type of complaint by one lawyer against another lawyer is not lightly undertaken. And this was done for the reasons I said, and the court, the panel of five judges in granting the temporary suspension of Giuliani`s license found not only was there a pattern of deceitful conduct here, but that the threat was ongoing and that required immediate suspension, pending for disciplinary hearing.

HAYES: Michael, obviously, you`ve covered Giuliani for decades. And I think, you know, this is someone who made his name as a lawyer, as a guy who`s sort of swaggering courtroom presence like this was what he did. How do you think this hits him?

MICHAEL DALY, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, THE DAILY BEAST: You know, I caught him speeding once, and his reaction was if this can happen, this is no longer America. So, now here he is again saying it`s no longer America. I mean, he got caught. And if you read the complaint, it`s really -- it`s kind of astonishing, how brazen it was, and how he kept doing it even when he knew that he was being examined. I mean, it was -- I never read anything quite like that.

So, people always say to me what happened to Rudy? And I always say, well, you know what happened is he woke up in the morning. You know, he basically going to be the same guy but you read this and you see that something really did happen. And I just go back to when the 15th anniversary of 911 that he and Chris Christie were down with Trump and then Rudy was dancing around Trump like he was a little Pekinese lap dog right at his feet.

And it was -- it was this total subservience. And I think that being down there, that meant that Rudy, Mr. 911, accepted all of Trump`s lies about 911 like having hundreds of friends die, about having helped down there, about having seen Muslims cheer. And, I mean, he kept lying and lying and lying, Trump did about 911, and for Rudy, that was fine. So, I guess -- and now he ends up himself telling lies about dead voters. I mean, you know, it`s --

HAYES: Well, your point about the complaint, I think, is striking because I agree, like, there`s -- in some ways, there`s tremendous continuity here. But, you know, Danya, what all of us watched, right, was this was fundamentally a fraudulent undertaking. It was laughed out of every courtroom. It was -- there was -- it was a lie. The whole thing was a lie. We all knew it. We all saw it. And I think a lot of people were asking as this was happening, that Giuliani is going courtroom and courtroom where he would be a little hedged. When he was pressed, he would try to be a little more careful. Like, can you do this? Isn`t there some -- at some point on all of these people, Sidney Powell and the rest, like some ethical bar that says as a lawyer, you shouldn`t be able to go into courtrooms and do it?


PERRY: Yes, it did.

DALY: I got to say, he really got worked to be jammed up for lying as a lawyer. I mean, that`s -- it`s what he do for a living. But you know, I`m sorry to interrupt you.

PERRY: I won`t respond to that. This is --

DALY: Danya, I said, him. I said, him.

PERRY: The other half. This is the outlier. And you know, it`s an odd coincidence that the Dominion argument happened, you know, on the same day. And in some way, there`s one issue that`s at heart in both cases which is, were these statements made while the speaker knew at the time that they were false. And the panel today found, yes, Rudy Giuliani knowingly made false statements.

And they went through in great detail how they came to this conclusion, including the reliance on unnamed sources on confidential informants which they pointed out and a great footnote don`t exist with private attorneys. And the statements are internally inconsistent. As you said, Chris, he jumps around in the space of one court hearing. He said, yes, we`re relying on accusations of fraud. No, we`re not.

And you cannot do that as a lawyer. Lawyers are supposed to be held, no matter what Michael says, to a higher standard.

DALY: That was unfair. I agree. And I do know that criminal lawyers a lot of times don`t ask their clients, did you do it, because then if the client says, yes, they can`t go in court and act like the guy didn`t do it. So, there`s -- I`m aware of that.

PERRY: Correct.

DALY: And you know -- what shocked me with Rudy was just the total disregard for that. It`s -- as a lawyer, you must just be --

PERRY: Well, and that`s why as I said at the outset, Chris, I mean, in practicing law for 25 years, this is one of only two complaints that I`ve been party to. The other one, I will say, was against Eric Schneiderman, the former New York Attorney General who violently sexually abused a number of women including me.

So, that was -- that seemed worthy of complaint. And this -- there are different reasons that seems worthy of complaint. And I`ll say in that case, his license was not suspended temporarily. He was not deemed to be a public danger nor did we even requested. I was not aware until this complaint that it was available. So, this is a real outlier case, and that`s exactly what the panel found today.

HAYES: Outlier case is the -- well, it`s I guess, hopefully, the name for this chapter of American history, although that remains to be seen. Michael Daly and Danya Perry, thank you both.

DALY: Thank you.

PERRY: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Next, Republicans have made it clear they do not want to investigate the attack on the Capitol. And so, now, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is taking matters into her own hands. Her big announcement that could finally get us answers next.


HAYES: Just last month, Democrats tried in good faith to create an independent bipartisan commission to investigate the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol. But then came word from Donald Trump in exile that "Republicans in the House and Senate should not approved the Democrat trap of the January six commission. Hopefully, Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy are listening. Well, they were. The very next day, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell came out against it. And Senate Republicans blocked the creation of the commission. They filibustered it.

And so, now, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has taken matters into her own hands.


PELOSI: This morning, with great solemnity and sadness, I`m announcing that the House will be establishing a Select Committee on the January 6 Insurrection. Again, January 6 was one of the darkest days in our nation`s history. I`ve said it now three times. It is imperative that we establish the truth of that day and ensure that an attack of that kind cannot happen and that we root out the causes of it all.


HAYES: So, what is exactly does this mean? Who will be in charge of this thing and what role will Republicans play if any? Congressman Adam Schiff, Democrat from California, is the chair of the House Intelligence Committee, and he joins me now. Congressman, what`s your understanding of what today`s announcement means in real terms?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): In real terms, it means that we`re not going to be deterred by the hypocrisy from the Republicans. We negotiated with them in good faith. Chairman Bennie Thompson did a remarkable job into agreement with his ranking member, the Republican counterpart, on a commission, five Democrats, five Republicans, both parties necessary to prove a subpoena. And nonetheless, the Republicans said no. Mitch McConnell called in a personal favor with his senate colleagues.

Now, why on earth would you do that? Well, you showed why. Donald Trump doesn`t want it to happen. And the speaker took the next step, which is if you`re not going to allow commission, we`re not going to simply turn away from this terrible tragedy. We`re going to get to the bottom of it. And so she`s established, or will establish a select committee to conduct this investigation to find out what went into this insurrection, why didn`t we see it coming, what was the status of the intelligence, was it shared, why were we so ill-prepared on that day? And most important, how do we protect ourselves from something like this in the future?

HAYES: This is almost a banal point but I think it`s worth mentioning because I don`t know if people know this, right? So, the two options on the table, the bipartisan commission, the math of it was five and five, equal numbers. And that was the 911 Commission. And what`s significant about that is that, you know, committees in Congress, for instance, the majority holds a majority. When the majority holds the majority, they could kind of do what they want as long as they hold the caucus together on all the business of the committee.

A bipartisan commission, you set up a situation where you must find consensus, right, you have to have everyone kind of get together, and that was the model, right? So, one offer to the Republicans was share power as equals. And they said, no. So, now, they`re going to get a committee where they`re on the minority -- in the minority and don`t have the same power. Like, what -- how do you understand why they have chosen that?

SCHIFF: Well, it is -- it is pretty remarkable because it`s a big leap of faith when you`re the majority to say, let`s do a commission, it will be 50-50.


SCHIFF: And frankly, if you`re not operating in good faith, you can stop the commission by refusing to grant any subpoena. So, that was a remarkable, you know, expression I think of goodwill, and more than that, commitment to do this the way it should be done. And the Republicans said no. And the reason they said no is they don`t want it done. They`re afraid that it will show complicity among their members in propagating the big lie, in creating the environment for that insurrection.

Whatever their fears are, they don`t want this to see the light of day. And most particularly, Donald Trump doesn`t. And they are nothing about the party, the cult of Donald Trump. So, the result, yes, is there`ll be a select committee. They will be in the minority in a select committee. We are nonetheless going to try, whoever the Speaker points to this, to conduct this in an objective way to get to the truth, to have a thorough and objective report.

You know, what the Republicans will do for their side? I don`t know. But I think we have to assume that it won`t be operating in good faith, but we can -- we can try. That`s all -- that`s all we can do. Well, we can`t walk away from responsibility.

HAYES: The last big select committee I think on people`s minds is the Benghazi Select Committee that the House Republican majority empaneled. Very famously, it had Hillary Clinton testifying for 11 hours always. Also very famously, Kevin McCarthy touted it in this very instrumental fashion as being essentially conjured to push down her poll numbers, Hillary Clinton. What are the lessons from that Select Committee?

SCHIFF: Well, you know, I was on that Select Committee. I was actually on two investigations of Benghazi. The first was done by the House Intelligence Committee, and it was bipartisan. And it debunked all these conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton and about the security and allegations that she had interfered with it somehow. We debunked that on a bipartisan basis as did six or seven other bipartisan committees. But that wasn`t the answer that Kevin McCarthy wanted.

So, he pushed for a select committee that would be a purely political instrument. That is not the situation here. Here, we tried for the bipartisan commission. They rejected it so far. We still want this done right, but it has to get done. And it will have to get done right as a select committee unless they come to their senses and embrace it a truly bipartisan commission.

HAYES: All right, Congressman Adam Schiff who did serve on that Benghazi Select Committee those many years ago, thanks for making time tonight.

SCHIFF: Thank you.

HAYES: That is ALL IN on this Thursday evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you, my friend, much appreciated.

HAYES: You bet.

MADDOW: And thanks to you at home for your joining us this hour. I`m very, very, very happy to have you here. I`ve got a big show for you tonight. We`re going to start though with my favorite movie.