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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 3/26/21

Guests: James Clyburn, Nikema Williams, Madeleine Dean, Costas Paris, Jeremiah Ellison


Republicans in Georgia yesterday passed an overhaul of their state`s election system making it harder for people to vote. A Black state representative named Park Cannon was arrested and then dragged out of the Capitol Building because she had the temerity to knock on the door to the governor`s office where he was signing the new bill restricting voting rights. GOP and right-wing media is downplaying the horror of the January 6th Capitol riot. A massive ship had blocked the Suez Canal forcing ships to detour around the southern tip of Africa. Minneapolis is still grappling with its push to defund the police department.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: That is a very big deal. It`s Black history. She was one of the people who desegregated those schools and took, you know, the spitballs and all the horror that went when school desegregation happened in Boston. So, congratulations to her.

All right, Maria Teresa Kumar, Charlie Sykes, thank you very much. Have a wonderful, wonderful weekend. And that`s it. That`s tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, on ALL IN.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, you are not --

HAYES: A political firestorm in Georgia as the backlash to the new voting law grows.

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): They don`t like the outcome, and so this is democracy in reverse.

HAYES: Tonight, Congressman James Clyburn on the Georgia law and his call for Democrats to expand the vote. Then, how fantastic lies about the Capitol attacker actively undermining the investigation of January 6th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of them went in and they`re hugging and kissing the police and the guards.

HAYES: Plus, the latest turn for the cargo ships stuck in the Suez Canal. And we`ll go back to Minneapolis on the eve of the trial for Derek Chauvin when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp and other Republicans around the country are working actively day in day out to restrict voting access claim they`re deeply offended that anyone would paint them with the same brush as Jim Crow.

They say they`re outraged their efforts have been labeled as racist voter suppression as they work to make it harder for people to vote in ways that will almost certainly disproportionately affect Black voters.


GOV. BRIAN KEMP (R-GA): Georgians will no doubt be soon overwhelmed with fancy TV ads, mailers and radio spots attacking this common-sense election reform measure. In fact, left-wing groups funded by out-of-state billionaires are already doing that now. According to them, if you support voter ID for absentee ballots, you`re a racist. According to them, if you believe in protecting the security and sanctity of the ballot box, you`re a "Jim Crow in a suit and tie."


HAYES: If Brian Kemp`s goal over the last 24 hours is not to recall the worst aspects of racialized voter suppression, white supremacy, and the fight against democratic representation in the Jim Crow South, well, I got to say he`s doing a very poor job of that.

Last night, as you can see in this video, a Black state representative named Park Cannon was arrested and then dragged out of the Capitol Building because she had the temerity to knock on the door to the governor`s office where he was signing the new bill restricting voting rights hidden away from the public eye.

Today, Governor Kemp was asked about what happened if he claimed Representative Cannon had been violent.


KEMP: As far as representative Cannon, you know, you`d have to question or ask the Georgia Department of Public Safety about, you know, what happened there. It`s unfortunate that a sitting state representative would actually stomp and kick a Georgia State Patrol officer.


HAYES: Representative Park Cannon, an elected official, who just tried to go into the room where the governor was signing a piece of legislation is now facing a felony charge, felony obstruction of law enforcement as well as a misdemeanor preventing or disrupting general assembly sessions or other meetings of members.

Governor Kemp probably should have put some more thought into how he staged this whole thing since he seems so sensitive to the optics. This is the picture the governor tweeted showing him signing the bill surrounded by six white men, a picture that presumably was not intended to invoke Jim Crow in a state where about 30 percent of the population is Black and one party, the Republican Party is nearly entirely white.

And the backdrop there is really the piece de resistance that also definitively should not evoke bad memories of old self. That painting there in the background, that is a slave plantation in Wilkes County, Georgia where at least 100 slaves owned by the Calloway family were first pushed to toil over 56 acres of land.

Earlier today, President Biden was asked what he thought about the new law and he did not mince words.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That`s atrocity. The idea -- if you want any indication that it has nothing to do with fairness, nothing to do with decency, they passed a law saying you can`t provide water for people standing in line while they`re waiting to vote. You don`t need anything else to know that this is nothing but punitive designed to keep people from voting. They can`t provide water for people about to vote. Give me a break.


HAYES: Now, Kemp and his fellow Republicans are pushing these restrictions over the objections of their own voters as far as we can tell from the polling. A new polling from TargetSmart on behalf of Fair Fight Action, the voting rights organization founded by Stacey Abrams, so they have a dog in this fight, we should be clear, the polling finds that 77 percent of Georgia voters oppose the part of the bill the President mentioned, criminalizing the distribution of food and water to people standing in line waiting to vote. That includes two-thirds of self-identified Republican voters.

76 percent of Georgia voters oppose allowing the state legislature to take election authority away from local elections officials, counties, and the secretary of state, 71 percent oppose shortening the early voting period, because well, all kinds of people use that. And it tears down Kemp and Republicans own nonsensical arguments the restrictions are necessary to restore integrity or trust in the system.

They know as well as anybody that the system already works. It already has integrity and trust, well, among the people not given to the big lie told by the President, as Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock explained today.


WARNOCK: If there`s one thing that`s clear, it`s that the Georgia election was certainly free of any consequential fraud. We counted the votes not once, not twice, but three times. So, what`s the purpose of all of this? They don`t like the outcome. And so, this is democracy in reverse where politicians have decided that instead of the voters picking their representatives, the representatives have a right to cherry-pick their voters. It`s un-American. It`s anti democratic. We have to resist it.


HAYES: It`s important to remember why we are at this point, right. It`s largely because of a multi-decade-long project to tear apart the legal regime of the Voting Rights Act, which was successful that project in large part thanks to Chief Justice John Roberts who famously said things have changed in the south when gutting key provisions of the act. That`s what John Roberts and Brian Kemp and all these Republicans want you to believe as stroke by stroke, they make it harder to vote.

Joining me now are two people watching this situation very closely, Democratic House Majority Whip James Clyburn of South Carolina, and Congresswoman Nikema Williams of Georgia who occupies the seat formerly held by John Lewis, who`s also chair of the Georgia Democratic Party. It`s great to have you both.

Congressman Clyburn, maybe let me start with you. I mean, you have a lot of protestations from Kemp another saying it`s insane, and absurd, and almost libelous, to read any kind of race or discrimination or any bad faith into this law. You`ve been in politics for a very long time in the American South. What do you say to that?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): (INAUDIBLE), and that`s to be polite. Thank you very much for having me, Chris. You know, I think that all of us have been aware of this governor for a long time. When he was secretary of state, we saw his shenanigans then. Nobody believed that he did not steal the election, fair and square, from Stacey Abrams.

And what he`s doing now is codified that which he used his administrative authority to do when he was Secretary of State. He took so many people off the road. And I guarantee you that was a difference in his having won that election and having stolen it fair and square.

And so, what he is doing now that he has the authority of the governorship, he is codifying all of that, that he wish he had to work with before and he`s now putting in place advantages for himself and other people who look and think like him. And I think that people know that.

And what we`ve got to do now is hope that the Supreme Court of the United States that once said about nine years ago in Shelby v. Holden that things are change. Well, they`re changed again. And I hope that the Chief Justice is observing this chain.

HAYES: Just quickly, Congressman, because you said steal fair and square. I just want to be clear about what you`re alleging here. I think my understanding is you`re saying that in purging voter rolls, the use it or lose it provision of Georgia law, such that if people don`t vote in consecutive elections, they get knocked off the rolls, that was the size of difference in Brian Kemp`s race against Stacey Abrams. That`s what you`re saying?

CLYBURN: That`s exactly what I`m saying. And I`ve been around this for so long time. I know what hurt and what`s useful. And we all saw how strategic that person was. And we all saw that a lot of people got purged who should not have been purged?

And when you do these kinds of things, like not allowing people to pass along water to somebody standing in line to vote, that if someone gets overly thirsty, what would you do to a person stand in line and someone says, you can have my place in line so you can go to the restroom. That`s the kind of stuff we do here in South Carolina. And I`m sure they do it everywhere else. I could just see that being a felony as well.

So, these things, I hope that all of the courts all the way up to Supreme Court are taking notice because it`s time for us to say to people like Brian Kemp enough is enough.

HAYES: Congresswoman Williams, I got to imagine them while you`re watching the footage of State Representative Park Cannon being let out yesterday it brought up specific memory for you. You were arrested in 2018 when you were a state senator at the Capitol demanding that every vote be counted. What is your reaction to what happened to Representative Cannon?

REP. NIKEMA WILLIAMS (D-GA): I mean, it was the aftermath of the election being stolen from Stacey Abrams that I was escorted out of the Capitol as a sitting state senator while my constituents were there protesting in the rotunda, their civic rights to do. And I watched yesterday as Brian Kemp signed this bill into law behind closed doors, live streaming it, and would not allow a sitting state representative in the room. And she has now been charged with felonies, felonies, Chris, for knocking on a door.

And if this does not take your mind back to the days of the Jim Crow South, then I don`t know what it is. You are preventing Black and Brown people and new voters from voting and casting their constitutional rights to vote and then taking a sitting Black State Representative to jail for simply knocking on a door.

This is something that Brian Kemp has been doing in his career over and over. He has shown us who he is. And I for one cannot wait Congressman Clyburn until we bring you over to help us elect a new governor in 2022 because Brian Kemp`s days are numbered as governor of this state.

HAYES: Congressman, you`ve been very outspoken about the need for federal voting legislation. Obviously, the Voting Rights Act, you know, passed in 1964, John Lewis being a key figure in the passage of that act, created a regime that has substantially been gutted by the court`s ruling in Shelby County v. Holder.

What is the remedy to you at the federal level, to essentially restore some of the safeguards that were put in place in federal law under those provisions of the Voting Rights Act?

CLYBURN: Thank you very much for raising that issue because I have been in conversation with Senator Merkley who is putting that together. I think it`s now called S.1 in the Senate. We`ve sent him H.R.1 and we are in the process of trying to pull together H.R.4.

H.R.4 is in fact the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Act. That is an act that allows us to have pre-clearance for these kinds of changes that they`re now trying to make there in Georgia. So, what I`ve asked Senator Merkley to do is to look at H.R.4 and look at H.R.1 and take those voting rights specific issues out of H.R.1, and the stuff that we had in H.R.4 that went over the last time.

We are tentative again, this time separate because we know what the law says. And the law says we have to develop a record upon which the -- draw the bill. So, I want him to take the bill that went there last year and apply it to the entire country. We now have 43 states that are put in place some kind of voter suppression laws that leaves on seven states.

So, if you applying H.R.4 pre-clearance to all states, then you don`t have to (INAUDIBLE) because no matter how, you`ll be targeted. So, that`s what I`m asking him to look at doing. It`s very clear to me that this thing has broken out all over the country, and we need to do something about it and do it right away.

HAYES: Yes, just to -- if folks have not tracked the holding of Shelby County v. Holder, I mean, the finding of the Chief Justice writing the majority was essentially the formula for preclearance, which jurisdictions had to essentially go through the Justice Department before altering a voting rules. But that formula was too capricious and it picked on certain states and it insulted their sovereign dignity, a right found nowhere in the constitution, I would add.

And your point is that if you simply made it universal, right, if you say okay fine, if that`s your problem with it, it`s -- you`re picking and choosing. This is happening everywhere. Let`s just have actually a national standard.

And I also wonder, Congresswoman Williams, about the politics of this in Georgia. I mean, you know, it`s striking for me to watch the response of Republicans in a state who just lost three elections. They lost a national election in that state, they lost two runoffs which they hadn`t done in decades.

And as far as I can tell, there is no hand-wringing or soul searching or large conversations having in Republican conservative circles about what do we do wrong and how to appeal to Georgia voters. It seems like this is really the emphasis.

WILLIAMS: Chris, they`ve done their soul searching. And what they did wrong was they think they allowed too many Black and Brown people to show up to the polls and vote. And we play by their rules, we won. And now they want to change the rules. And I`m with Congressman Clyburn. We need preclearance applied to the entire country. But I also haven`t given up on H.R.1 because I understand that H.R.1 will expand our right and our access to the ballot.

So, we have to go further than where we were just going back to preclearance and give people more access to the ballot. Everybody should have the same access to voting across this country. Voting is something that should be standardized. And right now, it depends on your zip code, which states you live on if you have the right to cast an absentee ballot, if you have the right for same day voter registration.

So, I have not given up on H.R.1 and I`m continuing to call on my colleagues to do the right thing because we all have a responsibility to stand up for voting rights in this country.

HAYES: All right, Congressman James Clyburn and Congresswoman Nikema Williams, thank you both for making time tonight. I really appreciate it.

CLYBURN: Thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

HAYES: A quick programming note, Senator Raphael Warnock who you just saw there, who won his seat in Georgia in the runoff election this year, will join Rachel to talk about this new bill at the top of the hour. I`m very interested to hear his perspective too tonight. I`m going to watch that. You should too.

But first, imagine a world in which the January 6th siege in the Capitol just never happened. It is a fantasy land that does not actually exist, although it does exist on the airwaves of conservative media like Fox News, and between the ears of the impeach former president who is still effectively the boss of the Republican Party.

In fact, last night, he went on Fox News and told them, the angry police beating mob was actually just waving flags and giving out hugs. And it would be nice if that kind of commentary was something you could ignore, but you can`t because it has massive implications for the real world investigation into what actually happened. We`ll talk about that next.


HAYES: Several committees in the house led by Democrats are moving forward with a sweeping investigation into the federal government`s handling of the January 6th`s assaults in the Capitol. Nancy Pelosi had initially sought a comprehensive commission kind of similar to the 9/11 commission to investigate. Mitch McConnell refused saying it would be too partisan unless both parties had equal representation.

But here`s the problem. That wouldn`t really work and there`s an obvious reason. Most of McConnell`s party is in thrall to a man who called into Fox News last night to spout this really disgusting lie about what happened.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Right from the start, it was zero threat. Look, they went in. They shouldn`t have done it. Some of them went in and there -- they`re hugging and kissing the police in the guards. You know, they had great relationships. A lot of the people were waved in and then they walked in and they walked out.


HAYES: It was zero threat. That`s what he said. And it`s not just Trump.


SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I`m also criticized because I`ve made the comment that on January 6th I never felt threatened, because I didn`t. I knew those are people that love this country, that truly respect law enforcement.


HAYES: No threat, no big deal. This is also the party line from the hosts on Fox News who`d like to mock the very idea of an insurrection.


TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, FOX NEWS CHANNEL: According to the honorable Jim McGovern, and everyone else you just saw on the screen, this was not a protest. How dare you call it that? This was an insurrection. Insurrection, insurrection, insurrection.

Chewbacca guy sang a song that he spread some good vibes, and then he waved at the officers in the Capitol and they wave back.

It was not an insurrection. It wasn`t an armed invasion by a brigade of dangerous white supremacists. It wasn`t. Those are lies.


HAYES: Oh, really? Let`s talk about who`s lying. First of all, one of the people arrested and apprehended by the FBI called an insurrection in his messages. Five people died as a result of the insurrection including Officer Brian Sicknick who we now have learned, it appears, had a toxic substance believed to be bear spray shot directly into his face, which he was seen bent over recovering from.

140 officers were injured, and punched, and pushed, and trampled, and crushed, and beaten with flagpoles. We have video of one appearing to attempt to gouge the eye out of one. One did lose an eye. This was a violent assault. Officers attacked with no mercy, the crowd chanting kill him with his own gun, people with concussions, rioters trying to capture, and who knows maybe kill members of Congress. That is what happened. And they don`t get to pretend to otherwise.

I`m joined now by Democratic Congresswoman Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania, former Trump Impeachment Manager who serves on the Judiciary Committee, one of the committees investigating the insurrection.

Congresswoman, first I wonder how much there is a shared sense of what happened that even on Capitol Hill, even on the members of Congress who were in that building on that day if your colleagues across the aisle think it was all kind of like some jokey lark or not.

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): My blood is boiling with your initial reporting there. I was there on January the sixth. We were there in the Capitol. And the insurrectionist didn`t give a damn if I was a Democrat or Republican or a staffer or a visitor. They were out for an attack. They were out for an attack on our democracy. They were out for an attack on our Joint Session of Congress, including the Vice President of the United States.

They chanted hang Mike (AUDIO GAP). This wasn`t some picnic. This was an insurrection. Thankfully, the Capitol Police and many others saved hundreds and hundreds of lives. People should stop listening to the former president, and absolutely believe their eyes. There`s nothing like what happened on January the sixth. It was a horror. And it terrified many people. It killed some. And we -- there`s no point in talking with the former president. He`s not credible, nor is Senator Johnson. These are people who have lost all credibility.

HAYES: I`m a little unclear on the status right now of this commission. It seems to me urgent, right, that there`s some large and centralized fact- finding enterprise partly because the law enforcement aspect of this is sort of necessarily disparate. I mean, I think there`s now over 200 cases, every day we see more arrests, but it`s the kind of thing that one would want some kind of definitive record, some kind of centralized fact-finding undertaking. Is that the idea behind this commission, and what is it status now?

DEAN: Well, and you know that it was the Speaker of the House, who immediately said we need to have a 9/11 style commission. I`m -- I was around. I was an adult at the time of the 9/11 Commission that was so ably chaired by former Governor of New Jersey, Tom Kean, and vice chair, the former Congressman Lee Hamilton. And so, we need that kind of a commission. Something that is nonpartisan, that is actually pro-American, to say what happened, why were we attacked?

But you know, what strikes me, Chris, is that there`s a distinct difference between 9/11 and what happened on January the sixth. At 9/11, we were attacked from without. For January 6th, we were horrendously attacked from within. That`s what`s so heartbreaking about it. We had a former President of the United States incite Americans to attack Americans, so that`s why this has become a political football. It should never be that.

HAYES: I don`t even quite understand McConnell`s objection. Is the idea of the commissioners would be appointed all the 9/11 commission? I don`t -- would it be members of Congress like, are -- and are we going to see one ultimately if the Speaker moves forward with it?

DEAN: I hope it is not members of Congress, because frankly, I`m a victim. I was a part of this attack. I was in the Capitol. I was up in the gallery. So, I shouldn`t be part of the Commission. I`m happy to testify to the commission and offer them information. But I think we want to get people who are distant from, a little dispassionate from what actually happened.

We have tremendous of folks who are public servants of our -- of our past who would be willing to step up, whether it`s jurists who have retired, and it should be people of both parties and no parties. It shouldn`t be anybody who was actually victim in the chamber in the House, in the Senate, among the staff, but they should call upon all of us to offer our information.

Certainly this is important enough to America. This was an attack on our democracy. This was an attack on our Capitol. Lives were at risk and lives were lost. It`s amazing that more people haven`t -- more lives have not -- were not lost. And so, we should thank the Capitol Police and many others who save lives.

HAYES: Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, thank you so much for being with me tonight.

DEAN: Thank you. Take care.

HAYES: All right, this is a scene in Florida last night when a boat fell on the highway blocking traffic. It took hours to move that boat because the boat was on land and they don`t move that well on land. Well now, imagine that multiplied by 1000. That`s what`s happening in the Suez Canal right now, a ship the size of the Empire State Building is still stuck, still blocking anything from passing, bringing shipping traffic to a screeching halt. The latest efforts to move that boat ahead.


HAYES: As we`ve covered here on this show, Amazon workers in Bessemer, Alabama are voting on whether to unionize or not, one of the biggest union elections in recent memory. The deadline for ballots is Monday and the union push has been getting a lot of high level attention from President Biden who voiced his support for unionization efforts in general. Senator Bernie Sanders who led a delegation down to Alabama today to meet the workers.

Amazon obviously recognizes the stakes. They have been non-union this long, and man would they like to keep it that way. But they decided to fight the effort with a bizarre P.R. strategy of picking fights with people on Twitter. And in doing so, they somehow managed to call attention to the fact that some of their workers apparently have to pee into bottles because of Amazon stringent quotas keep them too busy to go to the bathroom.

And Congressman Mark Pocan of Wisconsin tweeted to the company "Paying dollar $15.00 an hour -- per hour doesn`t make you a progressive workplace when you union-bust and make workers urinate in water bottles."

The company replied, "You don`t really believe the peeing in bottles thing, do you? If that were true, nobody would work for us." And that set off a barrage of replies and stories about well, the peeing in bottles thing.

The Intercept for example reported that the documents show Amazon is aware of drivers pee in bottles and even defecate in route despite company denial. One outlet had some not terribly refined photos. We should note, we were not able to independently verify these images.

Vice headline did story "Amazon denies workers pee in bottles." Here are the pee bottles including quotes from Amazon workers in this photo, as well as another photo that they sourced from Reddit, a plastic bottle full of well, urine supposedly from Amazon workers themselves.

Amazon did not respond to a request for comment from ALL IN. Amazon founder and CEO Jeff Bezos has seen his net worth zoom up by $75 billion in the last year as the company`s sales absolutely surged during the pandemic. And yet somehow the company has managed to spend their P.R. budget on getting everyone talking about peeing in bottles.


HAYES: You`ve probably read about Africa`s Cape of Good Hope at some point in your education or seen it on a map. It`s not actually the southernmost tip of Africa but it`s way down there. And for a long time, sailing around, it was the only sea route to get back and forth between Europe and Asia. That`s the long way around the continent known for stormy weather and rough waters and for the ships that met their unfortunate end in the waters around the southern tip of the continent.

That danger is, of course, part of the reason the Suez Canal was so revolutionary for global shipping. It allowed ships traveling from Asia to Europe to avoid the dangerous cape and sell the shortcut through Egypt instead, saving as much as 10 days on the trip. And so, of course, the Suez Canal has been the preferred route for more than 150 years until now.

This is what the shipping traffic looks like at the Cape of Good Hope. Dozens of ships traveling around the long way this week as if we were in the 17th century, and that`s because the shortcut is, of course, blocked by this giant ship, the Ever Given, which has been stuck there since Tuesday.

While fun is being made of the situation, the giant ship and the little excavator doing his best to help trying to dig enough sand to dislodged the behemoth, the ship as big as the Empire State Building that weighs around 200,000 tons. That as you might imagine, isn`t working and the effects are piling up.

For the very latest on this effort, I`m joined by Costas Paris, a senior reporter for The Wall Street Journal covering global shipping, trade, and logistics. Costas, this -- there`s something about this that has grabbed people`s attention, I think, because the world is so complex, and there are a million things that run in the background that we never think of. And then one thing happens and this cascade of failure happens. Has there been anything like this in recent memory?

COSTAS PARIS, SENIOR REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Ships get crowded, Chris. This is that unprecedented. But a big ship like this from the Suez which turns on its axis and blocks the entire traffic is very rare. I don`t want to say it`s unprecedented because there may be other instance, but it`s something that I haven`t heard before.

HAYES: I think a lot of people thought, oh, that`s sort of -- that`s sort of funny, but they`ll figure out a way to get this thing out. But my understanding is that because of the way the bottom of the canal is angled, and the weight of this ship, it`s essentially run around. I mean, it`s essentially on dry land and it weighs 220,000 tons. Is there any sense of how this is going to resolve?

PARIS: Well, actually, there may be some good news. We are hearing that these little bulldozers that you showed in the introduction, plus, of course, a number of very big pressures, these are ships that are digging the sand under the ship, are doing quite a lot of progress. And the ship may -- the ship`s bow, as we see it right now in the picture, may be free to maybe dislodge as early as tomorrow. This is what we`re getting.

And there has been a lot of crews that have been sent at this particular -- to this particular point in the Suez Canal, and there has been progress. What has happened in this -- in this instance, is that the ship went about, you know, when it wedged itself into the wall of the canal, he was inside by around 30 feet. It was -- it was quite a lot, and there was a lot of mud underneath. But the dredgers and the bulldozers have been making progress.

HAYES: What is -- I mean, when you look at that ship, it`s hard to get a sense of the scale, except when you see the tiny bulldozer next to it. And when you think about each one of those containers that`s on there, as you know, like a trucking container that you`d see on the -- on the back of a semi. What what`s on the ship?

PARIS: This is 20,000 containers that ships can take. We understand that`s about 17,000 (INAUDIBLE) which are full. It takes everything from designer dresses, to car parts, to electronics, iPhones, to heavy machinery. Everything, basically, that you have in your studio, or I have in my house, at some point was in a container.

HAYES: What are the consequences been like for global trade? I think one day, two days, three days - I know there`s a lot of ships out there. And it`s been a very rough year for sailors for people that work in the industry who have been often quarantined. They`ve been away and not allowed to dock in a lot of places or get off on land because of those quarantines. What does this mean for all these boats sort of out there in the water waiting?

PARIS: It means that there`s going to be more delays. The Coronavirus pandemic has been especially hard and seafarers. There are people on ships that have not seen their families that are stranded on ship -- not this particular ship, but stranded on ships for a year. That`s because the seafarers, the seamen could not disembark because of the coronavirus pandemic.

This kind of delay adds to the so-called problems of crew changes because all ships have to wait longer. I know I`ve been talking with a Greek tanker which is stranded, not very far from the Ever Given ship, and they were telling me that, you know, the crew has been in there for about five months, and they were just hoping to get across the Suez, go into the mid and disembarking Greece, disembark in (INAUDIBLE). Now, they have to wait.

HAYES: And I would imagine that even once it`s dislodged because of the traffic that`s built up, it`s going to take a while for the kinks to work back out in terms of the shipping lane.

PARIS: Indeed. There are about 30 ships that routinely go through the Suez every day. The capacity and the speed limits would not allow more ships to go through. So, if you -- if you have about 200 ships, and that`s what it is right now, 200 to 250 ships waiting, even if the increase the pace of the transits, it`s going to take some time to clear out. There`s no doubt about it.

HAYES: Wow, 250 trips -- 250 ships divided by 30 means a lot of waiting time. Costas Paris who`s been covering this in The Wall Street Journal, thank you so much for sharing your insights tonight.

PARIS: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, 10 months after George Floyd`s death, the trial the officer who killed Floyd is about to begin. We`re going to take you to Minneapolis to take a stock at the fight over defunding, reforming the police right after this.


HAYES: In less than a year ago, the nation was shocked by the killing of 46-year-old George Floyd in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Floyd died after police officer Derek Chauvin knelt on his neck for about nine minutes while Floyd was handcuffed on the ground. Floyd`s death precipitated protests, waves of unrest first in Minneapolis, then nationwide, arguably leading to the largest civil rights protests in the country`s history. And the shockwaves from that emanated out and left no part of American life on touched.

Now, the city is bracing for the trial of Derek Chauvin which begins Monday. He`s charged with second-degree unintentional murder among other charges and could face decades in prison. And the aftermath of Floyd`s death, activists in Minneapolis and elsewhere called for the police to be defunded. Now, majority of the Minneapolis city council committed to dismantling the city`s police department.

MSNBC Correspondent Shaquille Brewster went back to Minneapolis to see where things stand now and found that while there have been significant changes, they fall short of the dramatic reforms that many activists had sought.


SHAQUILLE BREWSTER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It started with a promise in a park.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To end policing as we know it.

BREWSTER: Minneapolis city council pledging radical reform less than two weeks after the police killing of George Floyd.

A majority of council members, of city council members on stage supporting that idea to dismantle the Minneapolis Police Department.

A headline-grabbing commitment --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Defund the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defund the police.

BREWSTER: -- still unfulfilled today.

What has happened since that day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We took five percent of the mayor`s proposed budget that was for the police and we`ve allocated it towards other programming.

BREWSTER: There has been progress. The police chief announced no use of force guidelines for officers including a ban on neck restraints. After much political pressure, Mayor Jacob Frey agreed to nearly $8 million in police budget cuts, shifting the money to violence prevention and mental health response initiatives.

And this month, the council resubmitted a proposal to amend the city`s charter replacing the police department with a more holistic Department of Public Safety.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When do we want it?


BREWSTER: Incremental steps short of the promised radical reform.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Minneapolis City Council even said we`re going to defund the police, and then they backed out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They didn`t. They backed out.

BREWSTER: But do you think it satisfies the people who were in that park that day who saw it said defund the police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The truth is that I`m not satisfied. I think that we could make deeper investments.

BREWSTER: But for some, even the conversation of defunding the police is dangerous.

You think this movement causes harm?

JERRY MCAFEE, CHURCH LEADER, NEW SALEM BAPTIST CHURCH: This movement -- not think, let`s look at the facts. It has caused harm.

BREWSTER: Across Minneapolis, homicide rates last year soared to multi-year highs, a pattern mirrored in other large cities. But this spike was met with a thinner police force. The department down nearly 200 officers since last year. The result of retirements, resignations, and more than 100 officers taking extended leave.

MCAFEE: To deform the police right now is absolutely, positively insane. And to me, it was a gimmick when there were some other things that they could implement and got some of what they desire.

BREWSTER: A battle that continues.

MISKI NOOR, CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BLACK VISIONS COLLECTIVE: I want to ask them to reclaim their imagination and then ask them to dream of a public safety system that can keep folks safe and also not murder people.

BREWSTER: A community divided over reforming the existing system or drastically recreating it.


HAYES: That was Shaquille Brewster with a fantastic report. For more on the situation in Minneapolis 10 months after the killing of George Floyd, I want to turn to Jeremiah Ellison who serves on the Minneapolis City Council. You saw him in Shaquille`s piece there.

Councilman, it`s good to have you. How would you assess where your city is at right now as it`s about to go through I think what it will be very intense emotional experience of this trial?

JEREMIAH ELLISON, CITY COUNCIL MEMBER, MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA: You know, the city in a lot of ways is still in a similar place to where we were a couple of months ago. People are upset. People want justice. And we`re still having a conversation about how we intend to keep our neighbors safe, how we intend to keep each other safe. And so, that`s where things sort of stand.

HAYES: You know, that question of safety is swirled around this entire debate, not just in the politics of it, which I think gets sidelined, but just the substance, right. I mean, people want to live in safety. And that means being safe from someone that would use a gun to settle a score, it means being safe from police abuse, harassment, or worse. And it seems to me that there`s a lot of talking past each other on that. Is it -- where is that conversation now in your city?

ELLISON: You know, I would say that the vast majority of people that I`m talking to in my district -- and I represent the district that faces the most challenges not only this past year, but historically. You know, we have not been kept safe by the traditional system. I`d say most of my constituents live in what I call this paradox. And the paradox is they do fear calling the police. I hear it from constituents of all backgrounds.

When they do, they often feel like the police maybe escalate or even disrespected them personally. At the same time, maybe their car got broken into, maybe they heard gunshots down the street. And they -- and so they want to be kept safe and they`re hesitant to call that safety system. To me, it`s a shame. It`s an injustice that people would hesitate to call for help when they feel they need help.

And that`s what we have to solve for. And I think that that`s the conversation that we`re having now. And I think that we`ve started in a really good place. We`ve started with some of the low-hanging fruit around mental health calls. We`ve started with investing in the office of violence prevention which locally has gotten a lot of press but has historically not had a lot of funding. We`re able to now take those programs city wide, and I think they are going to save lives.

HAYES: So, in the past year, as Shaq was reporting, there were 37 percent spike in homicides out in Minneapolis. We`ve seen this in city after city after city, right? So, this is not at all particular to Minneapolis. In fact, it`s been a nationwide trend. It was the worst year for homicides, shootings, particularly in this country and in many decades. I mean, really unfathomable increases.

I just want you to respond to people that make the argument. And I know some of them. Some of these are police officers particularly say, look, this is what happens. You told us that you don`t want the police and morale went away and police stop trying to do proactive policing. And now, look what happens, violence surges into the bridge. What`s your response to that?

ELLISON: We have been living through this pandemic. I think that response conveniently ignores how many people are out of work, ignores you know, how many people are struggling economically. And we know that economic issues drive violence in our cities, right? When people are hungry, when people lack resources, they`re going to go try to find resources, and some of them are going to, you know, resort to the means that they -- that they know best how to keep themselves alive or support their families. And those pathways aren`t always going to be good for our communities as a whole.

I think that we have to be able to look at the past year holistically, quite frankly, and not ignore the fact that the pandemic really wreck a lot of havoc economically and left a lot of people without a means of feeding themselves, feeding their families, without a means of providing stable housing, a lot of people losing their health care, and that this has created desperate circumstances all across our country.

HAYES: Let me ask you this question. If it came down to say, a referendum in the -- in the district you represent in which the voters of your district could vote to just say, we`re not going to have Minneapolis police in this district. There`s something too broken about their presence, about our interactions with them. Would that pass in your district or is it that people want policing that looks different?

ELLISON: People (AUDIO GAP) at my district (AUDIO GAP) and I feel I have support in my district, people want to -- they`re open to other forms of public safety. What they`re not open to is us making less investments in how we keep them safe. If -- what they`re open to is it being something other than the police.

Again, I think what we started with mental health causes is a big deal, especially in my district and in my side of town where just two years ago, a young man was in the throes of a mental health crisis, was threatened to harm himself. His girlfriend called 911 seeking help saying, my boyfriend`s going to harm himself. He`s threatening to harm himself. I need support. And the police showed up and they killed him.

And I think we need to ask ourselves, who is served from a public safety standpoint? Who is served in that moment, right? Not the girlfriend who was trying to preserve his life, not him who is facing a mental health crisis, and not the police officer, quite frankly, who now has to live with the fact that he`s killed someone.

HAYES: Right.

ELLISON: We`ve got to have appropriate responses. We`re still going to have emergencies in our community, and we need to have appropriate responses to those emergencies.

HAYES: Councilman Jeremiah Ellison, thank you so much for your time tonight. I appreciate it. That is ALL IN on this Friday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.