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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 3/22/21

Guests: Lucy Haggard, Chris Murphy, Nse Ufot, Cynthia Alksne, Ryan Reilly


A shooter opened fire at a grocery store earlier this afternoon just before 3:00 p.m. in Boulder, Colorado. Donald Trump endorsed Raffensperger`s top primary challenger, Georgia Congressman Jody Hice, who voted against certifying Joe Biden`s election. Former top Capitol riot prosecutor says that President Trump may be culpable in the January 6th insurrection. The Boulder Police say the suspect is now in custody.


JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: Wow. All right, this is tragic, unfortunately, again. Thank you, Ari Melber, Jim Cavanaugh, and Gadi Schwartz. Stay right here as we await the news conference on the shooting in Boulder, Colorado. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts now.

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. We have of course breaking news tonight from Boulder, Colorado, where a shooter opened fire at a grocery store earlier this afternoon just before 3:00 p.m. local time. Police have not yet released any information about a suspect or victims. But witnesses reported hearing multiple gunshots and seeing multiple victims who appear to have been injured.

Right now at this moment, we`re awaiting a press conference from Boulder police. We will bring that to you when it happens. They say it should be happening any moment now.

I want to turn now to someone who understands what to do in these kinds of situations, Retired Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best. And it looks like we may have this press conference in a second. Carmen, we don`t have a lot of details so far. We know that police responded. We heard reports about sheltering in place in another location. It seems though that we are going to get an update here. How do you approach this as a local police force?

CARMEN BEST, MSNBC LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Chris, these are always a really critical incident, whether it be a mass response, multiple jurisdictions, as you can see responding. (AUDIO GAP) are responding to the situation. Obviously, our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, with the families of those who are waiting information to find out what the status might be.

Typically on these incidents, as you`re saying, there`ll be multiple agencies responding, coordinating the primary respond and the primary mission is going to be the life safety of anybody involve, keeping people out of the area who haven`t entered, and finding a safe route to exit for those who might be affected by what happened in this grocery store today.

You know, sadly, this is -- you know, a number of these have happened. This is over 100 that have happened so far this year. And last year, well over 600 mass casualty which three or more people are injured, shooting incidents have occurred. So, it`s a really sad situation. One that officers, because of the frequency of this happening, are well prepared to respond, to coordinate, to set up containment, command post, identify suspects, and find out any information they can immediately in an effort to enhance safety for those who might be victimized.

HAYES: I want to just play -- we do have -- we`ve gotten some eyewitness reports just over the last several hours. Again, this is unfolding. We don`t know a huge -- a heck of a lot. We have not confirmed injuries or fatalities, the whereabouts of the suspect if apprehended or not. All of that remains to be seen. And again, we`re waiting on that -- we`re waiting on that press conference from local police authorities.

This is one witness, Josh Springwood, who was there when the shooting started. Take a listen to what he had to say.


JOSH SPRINGWOOD, WITNESS, COLORADO SHOOTING: At first, we heard gunshots when we were at the intersection at Table Mesa and Broadway. And then as we were pulling up to the parking lot of King Soopers, we saw a body laying on the ground facedown and people sprinting away from the store obviously terrified. After that, we just pulled away and called 911 and try to get out of there because we still are still hearing gunshots and we knew it wasn`t safe.


HAYES: You know, Carmen, one of the more striking things as we await that press conference there on the right of your screen, one of the more striking things I`ve heard now from multiple witnesses, and this happened as well. I heard from some folks in Atlanta last week and other mass shootings that we have covered, a kind of grim resignation both of people not surprised to find themselves in that situation, and in fact, a kind of muscle memory about what to do.

BEST: Yes, Chris, that`s absolutely true. As I mentioned earlier, so many of these incidents are growing, well over 100 this year alone. And so people, we don`t want them to become inoculated, if you will, or not, you know, be surprised or shocked by this. But unfortunately, because of the frequency, people are familiar with these incidents. They understand what`s not to fire in a situation where there are many people on the ground or at a facility that (INAUDIBLE) out, call 911.

There`s always going to be response by police and fire and others as these incidents become more and more routine as time goes on.

HAYES: All right, Carmen Best is an MSNBC Law Enforcement Analyst. I want you to stick around with us as we continue to cover developments here.

Lucy Haggard is a reporter at the Colorado Sun. She is in Boulder right now. Lucy, what can you tell us about what you know?

LUCY HAGGARD, REPORTER, COLORADO SUN: Well, I don`t know a whole lot, frankly. There`s been a lot of hearsay, but we`re still waiting for the press conference to happen very soon. I know that there have been -- there were -- there were a couple of bodies, I think, in some spots. And I`m sure that there are probably some casualties. But I think we`re still waiting on the official counts and details.

HAYES: Lucy, can you just give us a sense of the area where it is, what kind of sort of environment it is? Boulder, obviously, incredibly popular town, seen a huge amount of growth, a college town, relatively affluent town. Where is this in the city?

HAGGARD: Right. So, this is on the south -- the southern edge of the city. And this King Soopers is one of the few grocery stores on this end of town, so it`s pretty busy. There`s also a couple of restaurants, and another Whole Foods just moved in here, a local outdoor shops. So, it can be a pretty busy shopping center. And it`s pretty surrounded by residential areas, mix of students and long-term families.

HAYES: We also had reports and this was in fact tweeted out -- I don`t know if we have this tweet from the boulder police -- a few hours after the first initial reports of shooting. There was another location where they`re telling people to shelter in place. There were some reports that a SWAT team had been deployed to that second location. I wonder if you know anything about that.

HAGGARD: I`m not sure about that situation. I have not gone over in that area of town. What I can say is that round when I heard about that situation, I saw two large box style trucks of cars drive northward in the city towards that location from this shopping center with SWAT teams just hanging off of the cars. I don`t know if it was going towards that. I would guess potentially so though.

HAYES: We`re looking -- I don`t believe, just to be clear, so folks know what they have their eyes on right now. Control room, you can tell me. I don`t believe this is live footage right now. Are we re-racking writing that or is that live footage we`re looking at? That is tape. Good, important. Just for folks that are looking at this, that is tape that you were seeing of police responding to the call and then the aftermath of it a few hours ago.

So, that is -- those are not live shots you`re seeing right now. I want to play again, there were a number of interviews with the -- with the witnesses on the scene. And this is such an awful and horrific thing to witness and be a part of. We are still of course, the country, reeling from the brutal spree murder that happened in Georgia just less than a week ago.

This was one grandfather whose two granddaughters were shopping, I think, at the time. Take a listen to what he had to say.


STEVEN MCHUGH, FAMILY MEMBER OF WITNESSES: My two granddaughters, you know, 13 and 14, basically, came in with their dad so we could get a COVID shot. They came in through the east door where the pharmacy is. And that`s where it all started. And there were shooting and he saw it and got the girls down.

They ran and hid upstairs in a coat closet for an hour. And then the cops came in through the roof and were protecting them. They`re out now at the back. He got out. And they -- you know, this is going to be pretty hard for them to live with I think.


HAYES: 13 and 14 years old. Lucy Haggard, I know you`re scrambling to go attend that press conference, so thank you for sharing your reporting. I really appreciate it. I want to bring in now Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. A senator who has dealt with this up close and representing Newtown and has written a book about gun violence.

We don`t know the details yet of this, although it does appear to be a mass shooting and it is now the second in two weeks of this kind of scope. What`s going through your head?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, I`m thinking a lot about the families in Newtown today because what I know is that every single time, there`s another mass shooting, they relive the experiences of December 2012. And frankly, that is the case for almost every victim of gun violence that when these images flash across the screen, they go through another set of traumas. And so, my thoughts are back in Connecticut today.

But I also know that Colorado has seen its share of mass shootings between Columbine and Aurora, and now Boulder. You know, these are communities that are forever changed when you go through this. Everybody in that store is going to have to deal with a level of trauma that may never ever leave them.

And what I know from researching mass violence is that it`s not a coincidence. Maybe these incidences bunched together. Mass shooters tend to study other mass shooters. My hope is that this is not the second in a string of shootings that we`re going to see.

HAYES: Yes. I think that we all in the media have to be very careful about our coverage of that. And I think that some best practices have been developing recently. Again, we are waiting word from the Boulder Police Department there.

Your book, which is excellent, is on precisely this topic. And I think there`s two things to note here in the background context which provides context not just for Atlanta, but for today, not just the rise in anti- Asian American hate crimes, but also the fact that 2020 was a brutally violent year in a number of ways.

We saw shootings, particularly, and homicides by gun spike in city after city after city, huge amounts, 20, 30 percent. We also saw gun sales spiking in 2020. Two million guns were sold in January 2021 alone. You see that spike there just of 20 2020 and 2021. Just an enormous spike that happens in the midst of this brutal year in American life in a million different directions. How do you make sense of that?

MURPHY: There are two phenomenon that track rates of gun violence. One is poverty. The more poverty that exists in a neighborhood, the more they are going to be likely the victims of gun violence. And so, it`s not coincidence that in 2020, with epidemic levels of economic desperation, you saw more people resort to violence.

Second, the more guns in a community or a state or a neighborhood, the more gun violence there is. When you have quick access to a firearm at a moment of fury or panic, there`s more likely to be a shooting and a death. And so, 2020 was an awful year for gun violence. Not a lot of mass shootings that captured news media attention, but every single day there were hundreds of people die often and it can be explained in part by the economic crisis of 2020 and these massive numbers of gun sales.

Remember, 30 percent of gun sales aren`t even reported because they happen without background checks online or at gun shows. And so, you probably had a massive number of illegal guns being trafficked in 2020 as well.

HAYES: Yes. And one of the things I really liked about your book is that there`s some humility in it about what we do know and what we don`t. And I think there`s a lot of puzzling still to do about what we`ve seen in 2020.

But it was a very brutal year for gun violence in this country, to your point, not necessarily in terms of mass shootings, like the one that we think that we have just seen happen in Boulder, Colorado where we are waiting police reports, or like the one that happened at several different locations in Atlanta and outside Atlanta just last week but shootings nonetheless, deaths nonetheless, trauma nonetheless.

And we are -- we continue to be a country with more guns in any pure country and more gun violence.

MURPHY: We are. And we`re also a country that sends an unintended but meaningful message to mass shooters of endorsements. I mean, when Congress doesn`t do anything year after year, decade after decade in the wake of mass shooting after mass shooting, these minds that are starting to become unhinged imply that it`s OK.

And so it`s not a coincidence that over the last 100 years, the two moments where Congress passed the most meaningful anti-gun violence statutes in the 1930s and the 1990s, there was an immediate precipitous downturn in the rate of violence.

Yes, it`s because the laws change, but it`s also because the highest level of government sent a signal that we didn`t accept this level of carnage in our country. And people took that moral signal and change their behaviors because of it. My hope is that we`ll be able to send that signal again, in 2021.

HAYES: Yes, again, I want to be very specific here and clear about the particulars -- and the particulars and the generalities. The particulars of this shooting, we do not know that much. We have not that much confirmed. We know there was a shooting. We know it took place at this grocery store in Boulder. We have eyewitnesses who saw it happen. We cannot tell you anything about how many fatalities or injuries there are.

Hopefully, there are no fatalities and very few injuries. It does seem like from eyewitness accounts, that people were shot. We don`t know anything about the shooter. We don`t know anything about the response. All of those details forthcoming, we think, momentarily from the boulder police who had talked about a press conference about 30 minutes ago, and we`re still waiting on that.

So, that`s the sort of specifics here. We don`t know. We don`t know what kind of gun was used and how it was acquired. We do know in the context of Atlanta, that gun was acquired legally. And, you know, one of the things that Senator Warnock noted and I think play this sound a little later in the show, just the sort of shocking nature of the fact that in the state of Georgia, you can buy a gun and use it that day. You can`t register to vote and vote that day.

MURPHY: Well, and, of course, that`s the case in many places all across this country. In the situation in Georgia had we just had a waiting period of 24 to 48 hours, like exists in some states, it is possible that that shooting would have never happened.

What we do know is that something really traumatic and awful happened in Colorado today. And we hope that there are no casualties. But it still doesn`t change the fact that there`s going to be immense trauma that spills out from this place. And my hope is that, Chris, that we don`t get caught in this trap now of talking only about policy interventions that will address the last mass shooting.

Often that`s sort of what is laid down to us by opponents of gun reform. We`ve got to take a look at the fact that, yes, there was an awful shooting that`s on TV right now that happened in Boulder, Colorado today. But by midnight tonight, there will be 100, 110, 120 people whose lives will be lost today, Monday, from gun violence, and we have to address policies that fix all of that, not just the mass casualties that show up on the news.

HAYES: I want to ask you one more question while have you and we`ve just gotten word of that press conference has been delayed, and we`ll bring it to you shortly. I do have you here. There`s obviously a lot of news going on a lot of fronts, one of them being the border where there is a sort of set of complicated situations that have led to a very market influx of folks showing up seeking asylum, particularly unaccompanied minors.

The numbers have overwhelmed any capacity there is to give people shelter that I think we would consider amenable, humane. There`s been some policy decisions taken by the Biden administration to try to get people out of those facilities or to sign contracts with hotels to put them in them. You went down to see firsthand. What did you see down there?

MURPHY: Well, what I saw is children who had fled desperate, dangerous, violent situations back in their home countries. These kids, yes, they`re in detention settings that we wouldn`t have our own kids in for more than two minutes. But the situation they`re in today is better than their situation was back at home where they were being drafted into violent drug gangs.

They`re in these detention centers because their parents took a calculated risk that the journey to America, including time in detention was better for their kids than what was happening back home. And so yes, we have to move these kids out of detention faster. I`m going to work as a member of the Senate on trying to surround these kids with more childcare workers and social workers.

But we have to understand that this isn`t being driven by policies of the administration. The surge in the border started at the end of Trump`s administration, the 10 year high for apprehensions at the border was in the middle of the Trump administration. This is being driven by conditions back in Mexico, back in Central America. And if we don`t help those countries increase their prosperity and their security, then we`re going to continue to see these refugees show up at our border.

HAYES: Yes. We should -- we should be clear that in some ways, this is one story which is that the biggest specter that haunts the folks that ends up making this dangerous journey tends to be gun violence in places like Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, among others.

And there`s been real changes in the rates in those different countries at different times that then show up in that -- in that Exodus at the border because people want to live safely, whether they`re in Boulder, Colorado, or in El Salvador. Senator Chris Murphy, as always, it`s great to have you. Thank you for joining us tonight.

MURPHY: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, so we are keeping an eye on that podium there in Boulder. We`re bringing you the press conference from Boulder police to give us some details about what happened there today, reports of a mass shooting outside of grocery store. We`re going to take a quick break and be right back with that. Don`t go anywhere.


HAYES: In just a few minutes, we expect the boulder police to give a press conference with some details. We have very few about the shooting that happened apparently outside and perhaps in a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado just a few hours ago.

Now, of course, as people in Georgia continue to process the aftermath of last week`s other mass shooting less than a week ago, as I mentioned to Senator Chris Murphy, the state`s newest senator, Raphael Warnock made a point this weekend that has not gone unnoticed.


SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): What is our legislature doing? They`re busy in the -- under the gold dome here in Georgia trying to prevent people from being able to vote the same day they register. I think that suggests a distortion of values when you can buy a gun and create this much Carnage and violence on the same day. But if you want to exercise your right to vote as an American citizen, the same legislature that should be focused on this is busy erecting barriers to that constitutional right.


HAYES: In Georgia, you can legally buy a gun and use it to kill someone that same day, but you cannot register to vote and cast your ballot on the same day. It really is an incredible juxtaposition that sums up the Republican Party in a nutshell. It is a party that has been radicalizing in both directions, both radicalizing on guns and towards the view that any kind of weapon should be able to be purchased by basically anyone at any time, and in fact might be necessary to use against the government explicitly for the purpose of resisting the government, right?

And also radicalizing against democracy, this increasingly virulent suspicion that access to the franchise itself to voting is suspect, has to be policed and patrolled and restricted or, in the words of Donald Trump, "you`d never have a republican elected in this country again."

And as Georgia Senator Warnock pointed out, voter restriction has also been a focus of the Republican Party in Georgia, which after a shocking humiliating loss in the presidential election, losing not one but two Republican Senate seats, is focused on making it harder to vote.

They had been pushing the voting bill that would drastically limit voting opportunities, including eliminating Sunday voting that is popular with Black Georgia voters. But after facing opposition from protesters and locally-based corporations like Coca-Cola, Georgia, Republicans have actually been forced to walk back some of the more extreme measures. So, that`s the good news.

The current bill actually expands in-person early voting access. The initial first draft was going to limit it, but it does still contain provisions that limit voting like cutting ballot drop boxes. Still, the most dangerous threat right now the basic free and fair elections in this country is the persistence of a large anti-democratic faction of the Republican Party mobilized by Donald Trump`s big lie that he was cheated out of a second term. And that group is now targeting Republican politicians who committed the unforgivable sin of fairly administering an election in which Democrats got more votes.

Today, that target was Georgia`s Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, who has not been like, you know, some huge democracy activists whose reputation among a lot of grassroots organizing Georgia is pretty poor, actually, but who refused to engage in election fraud and a coup when he wouldn`t find the votes.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have. Because we won the state and flipping the state is a great testament to our country.


HAYES: Every time I hear that phone call, I`m like, my God, how is that guy not prosecuted? So, today, Donald Trump endorsed Raffensperger`s top primary challenger, Georgia Congressman Jody Hice. Someone who voted against certifying Joe Biden`s election and is basically now running for Secretary of State in Georgia on Trump`s big lie, right.

I mean, whatever is said, by Representative Hice, the context here is inescapable. It is a primary challenge that says you didn`t use your power to subvert democracy and install Donald Trump in power, and I will.

For more on the threat posed by Trump`s Republican Party, I`m joined by former Republican Congressman David Jolly who left the party two and a half years ago, and Nse Ufot, founder of New South Super PAC, CEO of The New George Project, the grassroots voter mobilization project previously led by Stacey Abrams.

Nse, I want to get to you in a second on the sort of Georgia specifics here, but I want to start, David, with you on this sort of broader context here. I think this news is as alarming as anything we`ve seen actually a while. Because it`s one thing for Donald Trump to complain and whine, this is in this internal factional battle in the Republican Party weaponizing the big lie to say that the litmus test for Republican Secretary of State is will you steal an election for Donald Trump or not? And that is the explicit reason for this primary challenger. That`s dangerous stuff.

DAVID JOLLY, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, Chris, it`s dangerous, it`s audacious. You know, it`s one thing for Donald Trump to endorse candidates, but to suggest that the very issue of January six should be relitigated and somehow relitigated in the favor of Republicans that this will be a principal theme of the `22 midterms, that is the bright line indicator coming out of the developments in Georgia.

And look, Donald Trump said this is what he was going to do. On January 6th and in the days leading up to it, Trump and his sons, they each said, if you`re not with us, we`re going to primary you. This was the threat. They would primary you. And I think this gives us a glimpse that Donald Trump clearly has control of the party.

But he also has control of the heartbeat of the party, of the narrative of the party, and he`s willing to play hardball. This is an indicator of things to come. And the question is, what other offices will they do this in? Brian Kemp is certainly going to be next, but outside of Georgia, how does Donald Trump use this currency and other races, including possibly if he doesn`t run the 2024 presidential race?

HAYES: And Nse, I feel like in Georgia, you`ve had -- you`ve seen up close, right? I mean, particularly with that gubernatorial election in which Brian Kemp was Secretary of State, had made a lot of changes to restrict access, to franchise, had deleted a lot of voters off the voter rolls in his contest with Stacey Abrams.

You`ve seen how the administration of fair and free and fair elections is not a given, right? It ends up coming down to the particular actions of particular individuals in particular roles. And to me, that`s one of the terrifying lessons of 2020. It`s like the system worked, but it didn`t have to. Like, I don`t know. Maybe Brad Raffensperger could have found 12,000 votes, right, and just made it up.

NSE UFOT, CEO, NEW GEORGIA PROJECT: Yes. I think it`s really important to point out that this is violence, that this is an attack on our democracy. This is their plan to hold on to power. Again, the President of the United States -- the former President of the United States has not gone anywhere. And the politics of the January six insurrection have not gone anywhere. And they`re continuing to play out in our elections now.

I think that our Senator Warnock is absolutely on point, that in a state like Georgia, you can buy a gun and murder eight people on the same day, but you can`t register to vote and participate in our elections.

And so, as we`re thinking about how we come out of these tragedies, how we create a policy environment that makes sure or that does everything to make sure that it`s more and more difficult to cause these kinds of mass atrocities, voting and working with elected officials is one of the ways that we can do that.

And so this is very much an attack, a violent attack on our democracy that will make it difficult for us to be safer in the future. And they have to be stopped.

HAYES: Let me ask you -- I want to follow up with you because we`ve all been watching the legislation that`s been moving through two different houses, right? There`s a House bill and a Senate bill on voting restrictions. It does seem like there have been some victories for folks that push back, right. That they have had to take a step back or two on some of their more draconian proposals.

Can you give me an update on like, what the dynamics are there with that legislation and what resistance they`re meeting?

UFOT: Well, they are meeting an organized resistance from the grassroots, from the faith community, and from the business community. But the problem is, that is not enough. I hesitate to call this a win in anyway, because A, there are still a ton of moving pieces, amendments are still offered.

And again, if any one of these provisions had been the law of the land in November of 2020, it would have suppressed enough votes to overcome -- to overturn the outcome of the Georgia election. And many of those provisions are still there.

HAYES: Yes, that`s a really important point. Again, I mean, Georgia was razor-thin, as we are reminded in that phone call. But there`s also to me, David, there`s two things here. One is this idea of just like viewing voting suspiciously, which has been true for a while. I was around for the acorn stuff.

Obviously, viewing voting suspiciously goes back all the way that the founding of the country and has reared its head in all kinds of incarnations at all different kinds of times from reconstruction, the Civil Rights Movement, and other areas, right?

But the idea of that, and also the idea of, you know, sometimes you would see this in organizations or factional movements where some faction would get control of things like the parliamentarian position, right? And then they could use that to manipulate things so that they won elections. This is like an old trick.

You know, this idea that like, you`re going to start to see Republican Trumpist candidate saying, like, I want to run for Secretary of State or I want to serve on this election board, specifically, so I can deliver an outcome. That is a massively dangerous thing -- step to take.

JOLLY: Yes, Chris, it`s a remarkable moment. To your first point, voting should be as easy and accessible as it can be secure. And the reality is, in today`s environment, we move billions of dollars a day on our phones, voting can be secure. What Republicans are standing in the way of is a civil rights issue. And I think Democrats have to lean in and framing this as a civil rights issue that has a disparate impact on communities of color.

But to your second point, it is remarkable, you know, that the political conversation around republicanism has been about who will emerge post-Trump that has all the Trump populism, all the Trump strings, but none of the baggage, right? Is it Ron DeSantis, Kristi Noem, Nikki Haley, who can be Trump-like, but not with any of the baggage.

What we`re seeing in Georgia with Jody Hice`s candidacy is the suggestion that Trump will insist on all of that baggage going into the next -- into the midterms.

HAYES: Right.

JOLLY: And then that will be an expectation of Republican nominees. And if you`re not willing to carry his baggage, you`re left by the side. Because look what happened. He made the endorsement of Hice and other leading Republicans immediately withdrew and said, I`m out because I know the power still lies with Donald Trump`s endorsement.

HAYES: There`s also news today and say about Sidney Powell who, of course, was spending a lot of time in your site, calling into question the integrity of the voting in your site, I mean, with really nutty and fanciful statements, that, you know, the ghost of Hugo Chavez was somehow hacked the machines. It was very hard to follow.

But in response to a lawsuit from Dominion, a defamation lawsuit, her lawyers filed saying that it should be tossed because no reasonable person would believe her. This is the lawyer. This is a lawyer who is meeting at the White House who`s saying, look, I was just doing a bit basically, why - - how could you take me seriously?

UFOT: How incredibly convenient, right, that when there are -- there`s a significant penalty on the line, we somehow are not to take you seriously. I don`t buy it. It`s an attempt to cover their hides. And again, after the damage has been done, right. The big lie has led to a capital insurrection. It`s led to almost 300 bills in 43 states, on and on and on.

I don`t buy it. I hope that the judge -- the judiciary sees through it. And I hope that there are consequences for this kind of information that has the potential to destabilize our government.

HAYES: Well, we should be -- yes, it`s a good point, right? The thing she said and that information, that misinformation that spread out through Georgia, there`s a lot of Georgians who believe it was stolen. I mean, they believe that it`s that it was rigged and that it was stolen by like those other people, right, which -- with all the nefarious coding that that comes with.

And there`s -- you know, there have been no consequences accepted these sort of defamation laws, it`s the only places that you`ve seen anyone had to kind of be called to the carpet to answer for what was spread among Americans. But it`s also now, David, it`s also in Nse`s state, right, and the state in which she works, you`re seeing Republicans -- you know, if that was a Democratic state, if Georgia was a state that had been Democratic forever, and the same thing happened, there would just be constant hand wringing in the Democratic Party of the state about what do we do, and how do we lose these voters, and what do we need to do to get them back.

It would be this -- and I`ve seen this happen many times in my life in different aftermath of Democratic losses. In 2004, when you know, when Bush was reelected, it`s amazing to me how the total and utter absence of that in Republican circles, even in a state like Georgia. Like, guys, you lost an election you probably could have won. You should think about, like how you screwed that up, right? Nothing.

JOLLY: Right. Right. And their view is they did not get enough of those irrational voters out, not how can we create a rational message for them. Look, Sidney Powell`s argument is the things I said were so crazy, nobody will believe me. No rational person should have believed what I said. The problem is, Chris, Sidney Powell did not have a rational client.

Donald Trump was not a rational man acting rationally. He was an irrational client who believed her counsel, and then he amplified that to Republican voters. And what we are left with -- left with in the aftermath of January 6th is a divided nation that doesn`t actually accept where the facts are when it comes to the past election and the January 6th.

Republicans are willing to double down on the big lie if they see a win. And in the long game, it`s going to hurt their viability. But in the short run, they think they got a shot to retake power.

HAYES: Yes. That primary is one to watch in Georgia. It`s ominous to me, very ominous. David Jolly and Nse Ufot, thank you both for making some time with us.

I should note as I said at the top of the show, and as I said earlier in the last segment, we are awaiting the Boulder police to give us some details about the aftermath of the -- what appears to be mass shooting that happened in outside a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado a few hours ago.

The details have been hard to come by, I have to say. We don`t have a lot confirmed. We`ve got some eyewitness accounts of people that were shot, that appeared to be injured that were either inside or outside that that grocery store that was in Boulder. We had the police warning of a Shelter in Place Order in a second location. Reports of SWAT teams moving in.

We`re expecting them now. I think it has been delayed a few times as they sort of get their ducks in a row there. The Boulder Police obviously have had a very, very busy few hours, terrifying few hours I would imagine. So, we were going to bring that to you when it comes.

Also today in West Virginia, a judge ordered pretrial detention for one of the men charged with assaulting three officers on January 6th, including Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick who died one day after the assault. George Tanios is not charged with killing Sicknick, we should note, whose cause of death itself is still being investigated.

But federal authorities say he conspired with another man to discharge a chemical substance presumed to be bear spray directly into the faces of the officers including Sicknick, and that the two men appeared to time the deployment of chemical substances to coincide with other rioters` efforts to breach the Capitol. In other words, this was part of a kind of coordinated assault to get inside.

This video, which has been edited by the Washington Post shows the two men allegedly plotting that very attack.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Give me the bear spray.

GEORGE TANIOS, JANUARY 6TH INSURRECTIONIST: Hold on, hold on, not yet, not yet. It`s still early.


HAYES: Give me the bear spray. Hold on, hold on, hold on, it`s too early. Tanios` family and friends appealed for leniency in court today when George Tanios Magistrate Judge Michael John Aloi ruled that Tanios must remain behind bars until trial. The judge stating, "It is hard for me to look at this as anything other than assault on this nation`s heart."

Tanios is a longtime Trump supporter. His mother today insisted he is not a bad kid and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many of those have been charged for their role in the attack blaming Trump for goading them into crimes they now regret. And now, former acting D.C. U.S. attorney Michael Sherwin, that`s the federal prosecutor who is leading the January 6th investigation till this past Friday says, they might well have a case.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has the role of former President Trump been part of your investigation?

MICHAEL SHERWIN, FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It`s unequivocal that Trump was the magnet that brought the people to D.C. on the sixth. Now, the question is, is he criminally culpable for everything that happened during the siege during the breach.

But we have soccer moms from Ohio that were arrested, saying, well, I did this because my president said I had to take back our house. That moves the needle towards that direction. Maybe the president is culpable for those actions.


HAYES: It`s quite a statement from the man who until just, you know, days ago led the investigation into the Capitol attack. I`m joined now by two people were closely tracking all this, former Federal Prosecutor Cynthia Alksne who worked for the U.S. Attorney`s Office in D.C. and HuffPost Senior Justice Reporter Ryan Reilly, who`s been assiduously reporting out the details of these dozens, hundreds of individuals.

Cynthia, let me start with you. I was -- I was really struck by that interview. Obviously, this is an individual who was just a few days ago, running this investigation, has left that post so he`s more free to speak. And at one level, what he`s saying isn`t crazy. Anyone who has eyes can see that. But to hear from him struck me is a big deal.

CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I have two minds on what he said. The first is, I welcome it. I mean, I would like this to be investigated. I would like the president to be investigated. I`d like them to sort through the evidence and look at sedition because it does seem like it fits what was happening at the Capitol on that day.

So, I think it`s an appropriate charge to look into. But you`re correct. It`s completely improper for him to make that statement. The United States Attorney acting now is a guy by the name of Channing Phillips. He is a by the book United States Attorney, and he would never -- he was there when I was there, when I prosecuted cases in D.C. and he would never approve such a thing.

And the reason why is prosecutors are not supposed to opine about cases except what happens in court. And it`s a rule. And it`s not something that should ever be broken. And I find it offensive, at the same time, you know, I can`t help but welcome it because I do think this needs to be.

HAYES: Wait, you`re saying even after -- even -- you`re saying, that should pertain even after you leave your job.

ALKSNE: Yes. He`s at the U.S. Attorney`s Office in Miami. He hasn`t left -- he hasn`t left the Justice Department. And even so, it`s an ongoing investigation. He should be quiet and let them do their job. They have somewhere between three and 400 people indicted.

They`ve got to sift through and figure out who really was there to, you know, just wear a scarf, and maybe not do anything and didn`t go inside. Who was there and plant went inside but didn`t plan it. Who actually are these Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys who were involved actively in recruiting people in raising money and putting on the cammo and bringing the weapons and who organized it. We`ve got to figure out who are those people. It`s a huge job to do that. And it needs to be done correctly.

Imagine what would happen if the U.S. Attorney`s Office took a plea agreement for somebody and they took the wrong person and one of these Oath Keepers got off on a misdemeanor. So, there`s a huge job to be done. And the best thing that anybody should do who`s involved in that is be quiet and let the prosecution continue.

HAYES: Ryan, to Cynthia`s point about the scope of this, a few things have been happening. One is, I follow this very closely, and every day, there are multiple new -- there are either filings or new arrests or new people that are being sought that I didn`t even realize were there. And also, it seems to me like sort of concentric circles of levels of seriousness. You know, people that were there and kind of found their way inside, and then people that clearly were planning to do this are assaulting officers.

What`s your sort of broad characterization of where the investigation stands because it is hundreds of people at this point?

RYAN REILLY, SENIOR JUSTICE REPORTER, HUFFPOST: Yes, I mean, there are just cases that are sitting out there that the feds just still haven`t gotten yet. You know, off the top of my head, I`ve got, you know, close to probably a dozen people who I know who haven`t been arrested yet. And, you know, three of those people were, you know, just a hair away from confirming their identities.

But you know, this is a -- it`s just a lot of work. You know, I`ve been doing this like pretty much 24/7 to a certain extent. Every -- you know, every reporting hour I have is sort of dedicated to this. And every day, I`m still seeing new videos, after new videos, after new videos pop up, a new angle I haven`t seen before, a new subject that haven`t seen before.

And we`re talking about this massive, massive, massive database of tips that they receive in the public. And just the logistics of sorting through that is just, I mean, mind-boggling and astonishing. Like, when you talk about hundreds of thousands of tips from the public and how you actually query that, and how you follow those leads and how you assign prosecutors and how you assign FBI agents.

It`s just an astonishing, astonishingly large investigation, all because of you know, the lack of preparation, really, that happened here and the inability to see this threat coming and the inability to make arrests on that day, because all of these people should have been swept up at the Capitol. It should have been a mass arrest. It should have been, you know, everybody locked up booked or at the very least they should have, you know, taken a shot of their IDs before anybody left, right, even if they couldn`t properly process them.

But you know, they have a lot of information. They have those cell tower polls. That`s going to give them a lot of threads to pull out here. So, I think it`s going to be slow and steady, but I think eventually we`re going to see charges against, you know, a large set -- more set of people.

HAYES: Yes, that`s an interesting point that we`re still not -- I mean, you have been -- by the way, we should say that you and other folks have actually identified people that were later arrested that the police had not gotten to just through sifting through video footage and doing some reporting and putting that together.

And all this speaks to this question, Cynthia, about the just the basically the capacity. Like, you know, that -- everyone`s capacity limited in any job they do. If, you know, you told us that we had to do three hours a night, like we had the same amount of staff --

ALKSNE: You could do it. You could do it.

HAYES: Well, we could do it. OK, fine, yes, we`re very good. But no -- but it would be a stretch, right?

ALKSNE: It would be a triage.

HAYES: Like, if you say the D.C. U.S. Attorney`s Office, like, we -- you got 500 people that you got -- now got to put this investigation. Like, that`s not -- that`s a big deal.

ALKSNE: It`s a big deal. And there`s a certain triage on ethic -- on these cases, right? I mean, you have to figure out and prioritize. And meanwhile, there`s still a city that has to be that is still churning. And there`s all kinds of cases that -- this is not just the only thing they`re handling.

And it`s -- Ryan makes a really good point. All these arrests should have happened, right. They should have just loaded up the buses, put them in the buses and everything would have been a lot easier. And that definitely should have happened.

But now as we`re processing, let me explain to the viewers, each person who`s arrested, that begins an entire process of the discovery that has to happen. They each have to have a lawyer. Every time there`s a search warrant, these things have to be turned over. There`s pages and pages and pages and pages of discovery materials that go to each one.

You got to figure out -- or the defense attorney is sharing from one defense attorney to another defense attorney, how is that going to work?

HAYES: Right.

ALKSNE: There`s just -- it`s almost insurmountable all the things that have to happen. And so, it`s not surprising to me that it`s taking so long. But they do need to pretty soon figure out who are the people who really are sort of -- were not there as part of the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys are part of this conspiracy or this sedition who need to be weeded out and pled out and get rid of those cases, because they just need those resources to focus on the people who really were there to overthrow the government and not people who are there just to support Donald Trump.

HAYES: Yes. Well, the Tanios and the Sicknick development strikes me is really important, Ryan, because, of course, you know, one of the most awful things that happened in this is that this police officer lost his life a day after, you know, confronting these protesters. The cause of that death remains several months later unclear.

But it does appear, they were able to ascertain that he was hit with this chemical substance. And that chemical substance, at least in the -- in the filing I read, cause like scarring under the eyes of another police officer. So, this was very serious stuff. We now have that video of them saying give me the bear spray. So, it does seem like there have been investigative steps taken to zero in on that.

REILLY: Certainly. But I mean, if you look at that case, right, the reason that that got a lot of focus is because of the outcome there. It`s not actually like the actions were similar to hundreds of other people were there right. A lot of people were on the front of those police lines stabbing at the police lines with the top of their, you know, their flagpole, for example, or pushing back on those lines.

There were a ton of assaults on police officers that day. But I mean, that outcome, obviously with the bear spray is what is given proper focus to that. And that`s what a lot of this is. It really is sussing out which ones you should focus on, because there`s a lot of layup cases out there about people who just came along, bragged about it on social media, and you know, one of their old high school friends turned him into the FBI. And that`s sitting there, you know, whenever the FBI is ready to take that up.

But you know, those -- the priority really has to be about the violence and figuring out, you know, where you can sort of put that and how much, you know, emphasis you put on those really serious cases, and how much, you know, resources you dedicate to those simpler cases that are, you know, more along the lines of a trespasser, you know, a MAGA tourist as they`re sort of referred to who is sort of, you know, coming in here, doesn`t have a criminal record and just wandered into the Capitol and ended up, you know, sort of messing up their life.

So, I think that that`s really what this is about, is figuring out where exactly those resources need to go in such a massive investigation.

HAYES: Yes. And we should note, Cynthia, I mean, this is an important point to make. I mean, as Ryan will -- I`ve learned from Ryan`s reporting, and many reporting, right, multiple -- I mean, dozens and dozens of folks apprehended, say, look, I did this because Donald Trump told me it was OK.

We have people literally on video saying that. I mean, literally saying like, we were invited here by the president. He told us to be here. In a strict legal sense, right, I mean, in terms of any possible prosecution or investigation on the president for seditious conspiracy, that`s not really legally material, right?

ALKSNE: No. But if the recruiting -- the recruiting and the Stop the Steel, which is sort of intrinsic to that is legally relevant.

HAYES: Right.

ALKSNE: Because you know, you have to prove in a sedition case or in the -- in the other 371 conspiracies, you`re really saying they came to prevent and hinder and delay the actions of the government to certify the election. So, it`s almost inextricable. And there -- it`ll be very difficult to keep -- it`ll be -- it`ll end up being included in certainly in the grand jury and in the indictments.

HAYES: Cynthia Alksne who was a prosecutor in that very office in the D.C. U.S. Attorney`s Office and Ryan Reilly who has been doing a tremendous reporting on this, thank you both.

All right, I want to give a quick recap here of where we are at. That is a live shot of where we are expecting a press conference from the Boulder Police. In fact, it looks like there`s someone addressing the people that are assembled there right now as we wipe balance to be able to get that. We are -- we were told this going to happen an hour ago. We have been waiting for it.

And part of the reason that we are anxious to bring it to you is that right now, all we know are eyewitness accounts and really, really upsetting eyewitness accounts, but very few confirmed details that we bring you about what -- and you can see that she is saying who will be appearing at the actual press briefing that we are now anticipating a little bit.

She`s giving folks names and spellings so they know who are going to be hearing. So, we`re going to bring that to you in just a bit. We`ve been waiting on it for the better part of the last hour. We still don`t have any details about injuries, fatalities, the whereabouts of the suspect and what happened in the mass shooting that appears to have taken place in a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado. We`re going to get those details hopefully very, very soon.

So, we will keep an eye on that. We also continue to live in the pandemic world that we live in coming up on more than a year now since this all began. Now, before -- it looks like we`re taking this now. Let`s take -- let`s take a listen.


KERRY YAMAGUCHI, COMMANDER, BOULDER POLICE DEPARTMENT: There was loss of life. We have multiple people who were killed in this incident. And I am sorry to have to report that one of them was a Boulder Police officer. During this trying time, I would ask the media and the public to honor the privacy of the officer`s family and his co-workers here at the police department.

I will also share that we got tremendous support from our fellow law enforcement agencies, both in Boulder County, which some of them you see behind me, the FBI, ATF, and other Denver Metro agencies. Without that quick response, we don`t know if there would have been more loss of life.

I can share with the public today or this evening that there is no ongoing public threat, that we do have a person of interest in custody. That person was injured during the incident and is being treated for the injuries.

MICHAEL DOUGHERTY, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, BOULDER COUNTY: Good evening. My name is Michael Dougherty. I`m the district attorney for Boulder County. This is a tragedy and a nightmare for Boulder County. And our response we have cooperation and assistance from local, state, and federal authorities. This will very much be a coordinated effort. And we`ll stand united and support the victims and their families to ensure that justice is done.

It`s a very early stage in the investigation as you`ve heard, and we have a lot of work to do. But we`ll be giving out more information as that becomes available. And as we nail down the facts here, as Commander Yamaguchi said, there is an individual in custody currently with multiple victims.

And we`ll be doing everything we can to fight for them and their families to make sure that we reach the right and just outcome. Thank you.

Good evening, I`m Kelli McGannon, spokesperson for King Soopers. Our hearts are broken over this senseless act of violence. The entire King Soopers family offers our thoughts, prayers, and support to our associates, our customers, and first responders who so bravely responded to these acts of violence.

We`re working in full cooperation with local law enforcement. And we`ll be deferring all questions to them for the integrity of the investigation. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ll take a few questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, can you tell us what happened?

YAMAGUCHI: So, as has already been mentioned -- as has already been mentioned, we`re very early in the investigation. As Deon shared that, we responded here, officers are here within minutes of the initial 911 calls, and entered the building very quickly.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us what possible motive for this?

YAMAGUCHI: Very early in the investigation, we don`t have any details that I can share at this point. There will be additional information released as it`s gathered, and it`s appropriate to release, that will come from the Boulder Police Department.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you confirm the number of deaths, sir? Can you confirm the number of deaths?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When did the call come in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just before 3:00.

YAMAGUCHI: Just before 3:00 today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us how many people have died?

YAMAGUCHI: We don`t -- we`re very early in the investigation. We are still processing the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if the shooter said anything as the shooter entered the building?

YAMAGUCHI: That will be part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened on 17th Street?

YAMAGUCHI: That was unrelated, we believe, to this incident.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there only one shooter?

YAMAGUCHI: We`re still investigating.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there injuries in addition to those who were killed?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were their injuries in addition to those who were killed?

YAMAGUCHI: So, at this point, the only injured party we are aware of, significant injury, was the suspect. We know of no other serious injuries at this point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us any information about the suspect?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, do you know if there`s any relationship between the gunman and the people that were shot?

YAMAGUCHI: That will be part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know how many people were --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said multiple fatalities. Can you tell us how many?

YAMAGUCHI: No, we don`t know. That`s -- they`re still processing the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there more than five?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know how many people were in the store at the time?

YAMAGUCHI: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many are in the hospital? Were there people in the hospital?

YAMAGUCHI: I don`t know how many were at the hospital. Currently, I know for sure there is one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, was there video of the -- video cameras that might have taped what happened?

YAMAGUCHI: That`s all going to be part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does this man have any connection at all to King Soopers or any of the workers?

YAMAGUCHI: I`m not aware of that. I don`t know. That`s part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was your first call of a man and an active shooter in the parking lot, then it moved inside?

YAMAGUCHI: So, I haven`t had a chance to review any of those calls. And so, I can`t tell you what order things were reported to us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was this man wearing a military gear?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell us something about the (INAUDIBLE)?

YAMAGUCHI: I`m sorry. I got two questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Military style, was he wearing military style gear during this?

YAMAGUCHI: I don`t know. That`ll be part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the weapons?

YAMAGUCHI: I don`t have information on that. As I said, our crime scene folks have just very recently entered the crime scene to start processing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the shirtless guy the person of interest, the shirtless man who was seen taken out in handcuffs and put in an ambulance?

YAMAGUCHI: Since I would be speculating of who you`re talking about, I can`t confirm that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commander, not to be critical, but it`s been more than three hours since you got the call. You can`t tell us how many people are dead?

YAMAGUCHI: I don`t have that information right now.


YAMAGUCHI: That will be part of the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the suspect at Boulder community --

DOUGHERTY: So, if I could just interject one moment. There`s a lot of investigation already underway. A lot of things are being realized as the crime scenes being processed, including the number of victims, which is known to police investigators. But I want to stress that victim`s family members are still being notified, so we`re being really sensitive to the victim`s family.

So, I appreciate commander Yamaguchi not giving out more information at this point. But even for the facts of which was certain, those conversations are going to happen with the families first. Those conversations are now taking place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You still can`t estimate how many --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we know where they`re from?

DOUGHERTY: We`re going to be talking to the families first and then giving out more information.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t see the connection between the two.

DOUGHERTY OK, but Boulder Police Department is going to be giving out that information. I recognize the need to get the information out as soon as possible. I do. But I also recognize that we have one suspect in custody. We`re going to ensure that justice is done. And to do that, we`re going to make sure we have the facts certain and understood before we start sharing them with the media and the public. That`s going to happen --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the suspect`s name?

DOUGHERTY: That`s going to happen in the next couple of hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you describe your suspect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t have to share the motive, but did he presented why he did what he did?

DOUGHERTY: I do not have any information as to motive at this point. It`s really early in the investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you release his identification?

DOUGHERTY: I cannot do that at this point. But I could promise you the Boulder Police Department is going to be releasing more information in the next few hours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are families who might have been impacted by this may be looking for loved ones being notified that their family members are OK? Can you tell us that?

DOUGHERTY So, the CU Police Department is helping with Family members that may have questions about loved ones and (INAUDIBLE) will be able to provide more information for family members to contact the CU Police Department for information.