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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 2/3/21

Guest: Carlos Curbelo, Ilhan Omar, Peter Hotez, Dana Nessel, Jocelyn Benson, Tim Kaine


The House GOP gave Marjorie Taylor Greene a standing ovation for

semi-apology behind closed doors. Interview with Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN) on

the GOP failure to deal with the QAnon caucus in Congress. Politico

analysis found that only five percent of vaccinations total have gotten to

Black Americans even though black people account for at least 15 percent of

all COVID deaths in America. Newsmax host cuts off MyPillow CEO for

potentially libelous election misinformation. Michigan Officials seek

accountability for election lies pushed by Trump lawyer Sidney Powell. Rep.

Liz Cheney will remain in House GOP leadership after the vote to remove her



JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Garret Morgan, we appreciate you because you`ve made

it so that we don`t have car wrecks. And that`s tonight`s REIDOUT. Thank

you all for being here. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" is up next. And then at

9:00, Rachel Maddow interviews the new director of the CDC. You`re going to

want to watch it, Dr. Rachel Wilensky. Stay right there.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN. Meet the new face

of the Republican Party.

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Is the type of corruption we`re going

to see come out, is it going to be satanic worship that possibly all these

people are involved in?

HAYES: Tonight, how the QAnon caucus won the so-called GOP civil war going

away and how Democrats now have to deal with it. Then --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, my -- can I ask our producers, can we get out of

here, please?

HAYES: From the MAGA pillow man, to the cracking lawyer, new real world

consequences for spreading election lies. Plus, Dr. Peter Hotez on what may

be really good vaccine news and why the race to get more shots in arms has

never been more important.

And why is it the Democrats are just getting control of the Senate from

Mitch McConnell today, when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. Tonight, it

seems Kevin McCarthy and the House Republicans are refusing to discipline a

member of their caucus who is openly called for violence. And thus, proving

once and for all, there is no real civil war between the Trump Republicans

and the establishment Bush-era holdovers. If there ever was, it`s over. One

side absolutely walloped the other.

Not only did the Republicans not discipline this member, according to

reports, a lot of the people in the caucus apparently gave her a standing

ovation. A division in the party has been amplified because of two

contentious figures that the GOP House caucus has been trying to figure out

what to do with it.

Now, the first is Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene representing

the Trump Republicans, much of the Republican base. She is a wealthy

construction heiress who shifted her congressional campaign to a district

she didn`t even live in. And she has spent years posting insanely

offensive, violent, conspiratorial nonsense on the internet. From saying

that a secret Jewish Rothschild space laser started California wildfires,

to claiming Muslims should not be allowed to serve the United States

Congress, to indicating support for executing prominent Democrats including

Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

Just today, Mother Jones reported Greene was a moderator of a Facebook

group featuring death threats and racist memes. This afternoon, the House

Rules Committee, of course, under control of Democrats passed a resolution

to strip Greene of her committee assignments. And they did that because

Republicans wouldn`t do anything.

They did it after a Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy declined to take care of

it within the Republican caucus. Speaker Pelosi responded with a press

release blasting McCarthy for handing the keys to the party of Greene and

referring to the GOP leader as McCarthy (Q-CA).

According to multiple reports, Greene apologized to her Republican

colleagues and private for past comments tonight, although the extent of

that apology is a little unclear. But perhaps more importantly, half the

caucus reportedly gave her a standing ovation when she was finished

speaking. Meanwhile, her public rhetoric is growing increasingly hostile

and apocalyptic.

So, that`s Marjorie Taylor Greene. On the other side of this so-called

civil war in the Republican Party, another woman in Congress, Congresswoman

Liz Cheney who is, of course, another heiress. In this case, the heiress to

the Dick Cheney political line. Also, like Greene, she moved to run for

office, in this case, from Virginia to Wyoming. And Cheney represents a

sort of Chamber of Commerce neoconservative Republican Party of the Bush


Now, to Cheney`s real credit, she voted to impeach the leader of the

Republican Party and the President Donald Trump with a very, very strong

statement about him inciting a mob of insurrectionists to overrun the

Capitol. For that, Liz Cheney is now facing the possibility being voted out

of House leadership. In fact, House Republicans are meeting about this

right now.

She has fellow Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz showing up in Wyoming to

attack her, leading a Republican civil war against her. But stop yourself

and ask this question. If Liz Cheney ran against Marjorie Taylor Greene in

a presidential primary for the Republican nomination, who the heck do you

think would win between the two of them?

I think we know the answer. In fact, in 2016, we had a mirror approximation

of it in Trump versus Jeb and look what happened there. The reason for that

is because Donald Trump and Marjorie Taylor Greene are closer to the

primary voting base of the Republican Party than Liz Cheney. And the

problem for the Cheney faction, if you can even call it that, is they have

nothing to offer.

The Republican Party right now faces a choice between being the loyal

opposition and being essentially a sedition is caucus opposed to democracy.

Remember, right now, as I speak to you, the majority of Republican members

of Congress is on the record voting for the latter voting to overturn a

democratic election, OK.

So, those in the Republican Party who again to their credit, want to at

least stay on this side of that line to stay the loyal opposition, they

have no affirmative argument for what the Republican Party should be that

has any appeal whatsoever to Republican primary voters. Forget other

voters. Senate Minority Whip John Thune perfectly embodied that message in

a tepid condemnation of Marjorie Taylor Greene. Asking the House GOP, "Did

they want to be the party of limited government fiscal responsibility, free

markets, peace through strength and pro-life or do they want to be the

party of conspiracy theories and QAnon?"

I got news for you, Senator Thune, no one wants those first things that you

listed as a Republican Party. At least the first part of it. I mean, let`s

be clear, the Republican Party doesn`t actually stand for that. And the

Trump years were not free markets when he`s handing out tens of billions of

dollars to farmers unilaterally, and limited government when he`s doing end

runs around congressional votes to stop them from funding the wall to do it

unilaterally, and adding a whole new Space Force, and enormous record-

setting deficits to get tax cuts for corporations.

No one is buying what you`re selling, Chamber of Commerce Republicans. You

cannot win the battle for the soul of your party with that platform because

no one actually wants it. No one in the base wants it, swing voters don`t

want it. No one wants it. The people in the base of the Republican Party

want to destroy the opposition. They want the country ruled by them no

matter what. And if that takes overturning elections and changing the laws

that certain kinds of people can vote, or whipping a mob up and to

intimidate members of Congress, so be it.

The Republican base wants the government to help them when they need it.

They don`t oppose big government in any way at all. But they wanted to keep

power away from the people they see as their enemies. They want to own the

libs, they want to fight Cancel Culture. That`s the sum total of what the

base wants, the substantive agenda. They also want to ban abortion, I

should say. That`s what they want.

Now, a new Quinnipiac poll shows that nearly two-thirds of Republicans

support $1,400 stimulus payment to Americans because A, they`re right.

That`s a good thing. It would help everyone. But also, John Thune, Chamber

of Commerce, whatever, they don`t care about whatever principles you have

about the free market, and like helping yourself and all that nonsense.

All this wrestling about what the Republican Party is and isn`t through the

figure of Marjorie Taylor Greene is somewhat bizarre in the sense that

Donald Trump was the president for the last four years. He was the head of

the Republican Party. And days before he left office, his approval rating

among Republicans was 87 percent. And that`s even after he got hundreds of

thousands of people killed in a plague and tried to overturn 240 straight

years of American democracy, 87 percent. Donald Trump was exactly what the

Republican base wants.

To talk about the current state of the GOP, I`m joined now by Carlos

Curbelo, former Republican congressman from Florida. Well, you kind of live

this in some ways. What do you think of my analysis of where the civil war



you`re right. This is not a debate about policy within the House Republican

Conference anymore. This is a debate about the truth versus lies. Marjorie

Taylor Greene apparently has been applauded or embracing a series of lies.

And Liz Cheney, who by the way I have heard is not apologizing for the

decisions she made, right now, as she meets with her fellow House

Republicans, she is under attack simply for recognizing the truth, for

recognizing what happened on the sixth of January and who was responsible

for that primarily, of course, the former president of the United States,

Mr. Trump.

So that`s the dynamic, Chris. This is not about low taxes versus high

taxes. Back in the good old days, Republicans would get in trouble for

breaking tax pledges. Now, apparently, they got in trouble for recognizing

the truth.

HAYES: But here`s -- so here`s what I think has happened. I think two

things have happened. One is that I think the modern conservative

orthodoxy, which is really synthesized and brought into a political

majority by Ronald Reagan, is in some ways the victim of his own success.

Taxes have been cut a ton since 1980. So, he`s just focusing on tax cuts

everywhere he go, has diminishing returns. Two, it has completely

ideologically crumbled.

Like, I just think this -- the notion of it and the context that bore

Reaganism isn`t there anymore and the ideology behind it is kind of

desiccated. You see it across the west. There`s nothing replacing it other

than resentment. That`s the problem. So, it`s like the Liz Cheneys or Adam

Kinzingers or Carlos Curbelos, whoever the world Republicans say don`t go

with the nuts go with us because why? What do you got?

CURBELO: Well, Chris, I think that`s a good point that maybe it is a victim

of its own success. And that`s why about 10 years ago, the Republican Party

essentially became the party of no. They just started saying no to

everything. And Donald Trump being an opportunistic person, as he has been

his whole life, saw that party. Saw that it really didn`t start standing

for nothing and decided to hijack it.

And here we are today where the party cannot even accept simple truths. And

a party that cannot accept simple truths, that cannot condemn lies, cannot

really put out there an agenda or a set of proposals or people to follow or

to embrace. And people who don`t recognize the truth and who don`t express

simple truths, it`s very difficult for them to lead.

So, right now, and their credit, Mitch McConnell and John Thune and Liz

Cheney and others are trying to wage this war. But it sure seems like

they`re going to come up short.

HAYES: Yes. And I think there`s a relationship here. Like it was

interesting to me the governor West Virginia, one of the Trumpiest, right,

the reddest states in the union is out there pushing for this relief bill,

saying don`t worry about the deficits, right? Because I think he knows

where his constituents at.

And it`s like, if the choice of the Republican Party is $1,400 checks and

QAnon, and possibly the executioner of political enemies, that`s one way to

go. Or it`s bad to talk about the execution or political enemies, we should

uphold democracy and also worried about the deficit, and don`t give the

$1,400 checks. That second wing is not in good shape. Like that`s not the

winning wing right now.

CURBELO: The lesson for Republicans in the last four years, Chris, has been

that as long as you`re OK with Trump, you can pretty much beat for anything

you want.

HAYES: Right, anything.

CURBELO: And that is not a coherent party that can instantly win a majority

of the public support.

HAYES: Yes, you`re right. I mean, I think it`s Trump but it`s sort of

against the libs, right, if you`re fighting -- if you`re fighting the other

side. And I think abortion -- I think abortion continues a litmus test. I

think you can`t come out and be like, oh, we should have a pro-choice

justice. Like that`s -- but those are it. Like, basically it`s that and

then everything -- it`s a free running field ideologically after that,

which is part of what we`re seeing in this fight.

Carlos Curbelo, thank you for giving us a little bit of your expertise

tonight. I really appreciate it.

CURBELO: Thank you, Chris. Good night.

HAYES: There`s a strategy the right-wing media returns to again and again.

When people aligned with their side, do something indefensible, which is to

point to something else and say, well, hey, what about that, all the time.

For example, when a Republican president whipped up and incited a mob of

insurrection, and then those insurrections attack the U.S. Capitol in

violent pursuit of overturning a legitimate election, the right-wing media

just went to the old playbook. And instead of reckoning with what had

happened, what their side had done, it was like, what about Antifa?

They are now doing this again, predictably, again, with Marjorie Taylor

Greene, a member of Congress who has literally signaled support for the

murder of Democratic lawmakers. I mean, I think she says that it was

someone managing her page, but that`s like what happened. So, this was Fox

News today. The network`s suggesting a double standard in the treatment of

Greene and Democratic Representative Ilhan Omar, someone who does not, for

the record, have public support for killing her fellow lawmakers.

House Republicans are using the same tactic as their media allies. So, this

afternoon, in response, Congressman Congresswoman Omar released a statement

that reads in part, "Let`s be clear, this is a desperate smear rooted in

racism, misogyny and Islamophobia. The House Republican caucus, instead of

holding her accountable is now fanning the flames. Republicans will do

anything to distract from the fact they have not only allowed but elevated

members of their own caucus who encouraged violence. It`s time to stop

whitewashing the actions of the violent conspiracy theorists who pose a

direct and immediate threat to their fellow members of Congress and our

most fundamental democratic processes."

And joining me now for his first interview on all this is Democratic

Representative Ilhan Omar of Minnesota. Representative, Congresswoman, did

you expect that you would be pulled into this because you have become kind

of the go-to figure in these moments for the Republican Party?

REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): Sadly, this is the Republican playbook. We saw it

with Donald Trump that anytime they are faced with consequences for their

actions to undermine our democracy. They blame Muslims, they blame

immigrants. They blame black people, they blame women. I just happen to

embody all of these identities.

And I just want to make sure, Chris that we are clear on this. This is not

about me, and it should not be about me. This is about a member of the

Republican caucus who has repeatedly incited violence and Republicans can`t

just wave a magic wand and attack the Black Congresswoman.

HAYES: It was notable that there has been a fundraising effort using you.

The fundraising was complaining the Democrats are trying to expel me from

Congress. And it was interesting, the Democrat behind her there is you not,

you know, Speaker Pelosi or House leadership. I think everyone understands

what that`s about.

I guess my question is this. There`s this dynamic that functions now where

she will use this attention, right, and this sort of oppositional to

fundraise. Like, do you think about breaking out of this cycle and how to

do it if there`s any way out of it?

OMAR: No. I mean, you know, the Republicans truly have lost their way.

Their party is destroyed. Their base now is conspiracy theorists, it`s

cowards, it`s opportunists, it`s grifters. And sadly, they`re becoming the

Looney Tunes. You know, these are people who we can`t take serious. They`re

not here to do the people`s business. They are here to just be

obstructionist and make a mockery of not just our government, but our


HAYES: There is -- of course, this individual Congresswoman who`s the

subject of this question today in this House Rules Committee attracted

attention she ran because of this ad with her with a gun next to you and

other Democratic lawmakers. And, you know, it just seems to me that there -

- and you tweeted about this, about feeling like this sense of threat or

menace. Alexandria, Ocasio Cortez talked about this. We saw it embodied in

January 6th. This is not theoretical

But just the degree to which the idea of physical intimidation, the threat

of violence, of menace of armed people has entered into the oxygen, the

atmosphere of the building and the place you work that should be a question

of sort of depth debating politics.

OMAR: Yes. I mean, so many people have asked, you know, could there be

violence. Could this lead to violence? And, you know, they seem to forget

that five people have already lost their lives on -- in the events of

January 6th, including a Capitol Police officer. Hundreds more people could

have. We currently have members of Congress who are moving their offices

away because they feel for their lives.

You know, Alex talked about the trauma that she`s living with and has lived

with since January 6th. I sent a text message to my ex-husband and told

him, you know, if I don`t make it out, please make sure you tell my

children, I love them. This is not a joke. This is not a game. These people

are threatening to our environment. They are threatening our ability to do

our work. They are really making it hard for people to survive and exist in

a free democracy where debate and discourse is supposed to be celebrated.

We are now living in a situation where every single caucus conversation,

it`s about, you know, where can we find resources for security? How are we

supposed to check if our panic buttons are working? You know, can we buddy

up and walk the hallways because we are afraid of our own colleagues. This

is insane. No other work environment that is this toxic would sustain

itself. And we can`t sustain ourselves as members of Congress in the


HAYES: The final question is, is there something that these members can do

to cross back over the line whether it`s Margaret Taylor Greene, whether

it`s the others that voted to overturn this election? Like, what would do

that? What would be a way when you say it`s unsustainable short of removing

them from Congress, which I think probably won`t happen, and I think

there`s small D democratic arguments for why that might not be ideal. What

could happen?

OMAR: They can -- they can show leadership. They can decide not to turn the

key over -- the key of their party over to this conspiracy theorist, white

supremacist, violent and dangerous member of Congress. They can hold her

accountable. They can hold so many of their members who have incited

insurrection and helped lead a rebellion against our democracy on January

6th accountable.

It is going to be a long road because, you know, these are the children

that are born out of a white supremacist movement that has taken over the

base of the Republican Party. And we have to, you know, wait and see if

they are willing to do the hard work of, you know, dealing with this awful,

toxic, really deadly white supremacist, fascist America that they have


HAYES: Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, thank you so much for being with me.

OMAR: Thank you.

HAYES: Next, what may be some good news in the vaccine front and an ominous

warning about who will suffer most if we don`t speed up vaccinations

quickly. Dr. Peter Hotez explains after this.


HAYES: While the United States is slowly pushing up the average number of

vaccines administered per day, we need to get more shots and more arms much

faster, especially, especially in communities that have already been

decimated by the disease.

One Politico analysis found that only five percent of vaccinations total

have gotten to Black Americans, even though black people account for at

least 15 percent of all COVID deaths in America and it could be about to

get so much worse. As Dr. Peter Hotez lays out an op-ed for the Daily

Beast, the new, more contagious, mutant variants of the virus popping up

across the country could be absolutely catastrophic for Black Americans.

Dr. Peter Hotez, the Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at

Baylor College of Medicine, a co-director of the Texas Children`s Hospital

Center for Vaccine Development who is himself working on a Coronavirus

vaccine joins me now. Dr. Hotez, lay out the argument you make in the op-ed

about the need to target specifically African Americans for vaccination as

quickly as possible.


DEVELOPMENT: Yes, Chris, it`s really born out of the fact now especially

because we`ve got the new variants coming the ones from the United Kingdom,

South Africa, and now Brazil. And we know that they`re highly contagious.

They`re much more transmissible than the -- than the previous major

lineages that we`ve had in North America. And so, they`re going to race

through this population very quickly.

They`re already here. The U.K., there`s been at least about 540 isolates,

three in South Africa, one in Brazil. And we`ve only really just started

now doing genomic sequencing. We`ve been underachieving so it`s probably

much more widespread. So, this thing is going to sweep through the country

even though we`re on a decline right now from 250,000 new cases a day to

150,000. This is going to sweep through.

And what we`ve learned in 2020 is that this virus disproportionately

affects certain groups, Hispanics, African American populations, Native

American populations. And I`m really worried particularly about the African

American population for a number of reasons. They seem to be losing their

life at a younger age, about a third of the deaths in the African American

non-white populations occurring under the age of 65. That`s so true of


So, we`re losing a generation of 40, 50-year-old African American moms and

dads and I`m worried about that. And the fact the -- we`re seeing now,

we`re not doing such a great job in vaccinating in low-income

neighborhoods. And then we`ve done two studies -- we have two studies now

to show high rates of vaccine hesitancy among the African American people.

So, we`re looking at this perfect storm. If this virus as the new variants

race through, this is who it`s going to hit the hardest, I`m afraid.

HAYES: Yes. We should -- we should note that there is -- we`re doing very

little genomic sequencing in terms of surveilling where the new strains

are. One individual, an Alabama man at the age of 35 who did in fact have

that that strain from the U.K. has died, succumbed to the virus. You can

see him right there, 35 years old. And of course, we saw the fatality rates

go up and the hospitalization rates go up in the U.K. That combines with

the fact that this has been hitting African Americans.

Here`s my frustration about the vaccine discussion. There was -- the CDC

put up this metric -- this sort of matrix for decision making about tiers

and ordering vaccines, and it -- and it prioritized equity, particularly

racial equity. And it got a lot of criticism for that. There was a lot of

criticism that says stop thinking about that. Get shots in arms. And I

think there was a persuasive reason for that.

But now that we`ve moved to just shots and arms, guess what America, we

have -- we have managed to recreate the problem from an equity standpoint.

We have tons of evidence coming in. This is from the New York Times.

Wealthy are getting more vaccinations, even in poor neighborhoods, we have

racial disparities opening up in vaccinations. How do we fix that?

HOTEZ: Yes. I think one of the major ways, of course, is making vaccines

more accessible in some of the low-income neighborhoods. You know, we don`t

really have much of a health system for giving adult vaccinations. It

relies heavily on the pharmacy chains and the hospital chains. But

tragically, you know, many of the low-income neighborhoods are pharmacy

deserts. They`re just not there. And same with a number of the community

hospitals that are folded in poor urban areas.

And so, as a consequence, there`s no place to get vaccinated. So, we`ve got

to specifically open up community centers. We`ve been doing that in

Houston. Mayor Turner has been opening up centers and some of the low-

income neighborhoods. This may be a good model to follow. But also in

parallel, what we`re finding is when we look at groups that are going to

refuse vaccines, it`s pretty high among the African American population

because they don`t trust what`s been going on. They`re not being spoken to.

There`s an absence of communication and that horrific legacy of Tuskegee

experimentation, of course. And there`s not been deliberate targeting of

African American groups by the anti-vaccine lobby.

So, we`ve -- so, one of the things that I`m doing now, Chris, is I`m going

on African American radio broadcasts and talk radio shows and podcasts when

every chance I get because the message that they`re not hearing is how

we`re disproportionately losing the lives of so many young moms and dads

and brothers and sisters. And that message absolutely has to get across in

a big way. And if no one`s going to do it, I`ll do the best I can.

I know -- you know, I talked to people -- some of the people in the Biden

camp. They understand that they get it. They`re ramping up. But the scary

thing is, you know, before we thought we have time, we thought we had for

the fall to fully vaccinate the American people. But now, with the new

variants here, in the last couple of weeks, we now realize we have to call

an audible, and now we`ve got to get this done by June.

And so it`s not only going to be about getting the vaccination hubs. We

need more vaccines. And we`re learning in Operation Warp Speed that we

don`t have all the vaccines that are not being made in parallel with all of

the studies, unfortunately.

HAYES: Yes. Supply right now is a bigger issue than the demand. But I think

there are lots of people, I should just note, who are working on the demand

side of this issue among various communities across the country. Dr. Peter

Hotez, thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience on this. I

appreciate it.

HOTEZ: Thank you.

HAYES: Next, the unreal exchange in an interview with the My Pillow dude

that tells you just about everything you need to know about this political

moment. One of these people is apologizing today. Stick around to find out



HAYES: In just a second, I`m going to play for you two of the greatest

minutes that have ever aired on cable news function as a kind of Rosetta

Stone for understanding everything about our politics in this moment. But

first, I need to give you a little context for what you`re going to see.

The network here is called Newsmax, sort of fringe, right-wing, a very pro-

Trump channel even more so than Fox. They`ve gained a huge following in

recent months eating into Fox`s ratings by essentially going all in on the

former president`s big lie about the election being stolen. And of course,

that included lots of segments about a company called Dominion voting

systems, and conspiracy theories about their voting machines deleting or

changing votes.

Now, that didn`t actually happen, but the network went along with the false

story until Dominion threatened them with a defamation lawsuit. And then

Newsmax quickly changed its tune after that. They started running these

bizarre quasi hostage video segments with the hosts reading statements to

set the record straight about Dominion. That`s the network we`re about to


The guest is the MAGA pillow guy Mike Lindell, who is also all-in on this

conspiracy theory to the point that he went to the White House on January

15 to try to convince Donald Trump to stage a full coup. And because he

himself was spreading the lie about the voting machines and the election

being stolen, the MAGA pillow man, like Trump, was kicked off of Twitter,

which gave Newsmax the bright idea to bring him on to rant against the

censorious woke mob cancel culture that de-platformed him.

The problem, of course, is that he was de-platformed for telling exactly

the kinds of lies that got Newsmax into potential legal trouble. And those

lies were all the MAGA pillow guy wanted to talk about. So, this is what

that looked like.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what happened? What happened with your Twitter

account and the company page?

MIKE LINDELL, CEO, MYPILLOW: Well, first mine was taken down because we

have all the election problems with this Dominion machines. We have 100

percent proof. And then I -- when they took it down a few weeks ago --


LINDELL: And then when I put it back up, my personal --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike, thank you very much. Mike, you`re talking about

machines that we at Newsmax have not been able to verify any of those kinds

of allegations. We just want to let people know that there`s nothing

substantive that we`ve seen. Let me read you something there.


While there were some clear evidence of some cases about fraud and election

irregularities, the election results in every state were certified, and

Newsmax accepts the results as legal and final. The courts have also

supported that view. So, we wanted to talk to you about canceling culture,

if you will.

LINDELL: But -- so wait, Chris, you`re against --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t want to relitigate the allegations that you`re

making, Mike, because we understand where you are.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, let me ask you this. Do you think that this should

be temporary because it appears to be permanent? Could you make an argument

that is temporary?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you make an argument that this could be a

temporary banding rather than permanent?

LINDELL: No, I wanted to be a permanent because you know what, the judge us

because I`m revealing all the evidence on Friday of all the election

problem with these machines. So, I`m sorry if you`re thinking it`s not --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, Mike -- can I ask our producers, can we get out of

here, please? I don`t want to have to keep going over this. We at Newsmax

have not been able to verify any of those allegations that you`re --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait. Wait a minute. Wait, Mike, hold on a second.

Everybody, hold on a second. Mike, Mike, hold on one second. Let`s talk a

little bit about just what is happening overall in terms of censorship --


LINDELL: (INAUDIBLE) my company and myself in this country is cancel



HAYES: Oh, so good. Lucky for Mike Lindell, he was back on Newsmax the same

night and today host Bob Seller has apologized on air saying he could have

handled the interview differently and that the MAGA pillow man will

continue to be important guest on the network as a very important guest who

happens to also spend tens of thousands of dollars running ads on that


But it all underlines there are other more serious legal consequences

possible for those who spread the big lie. State officials in Michigan are

actually pushing to disbar Trump lawyers who`ve played along. I`ll talk to

two of those officials next.


HAYES: For almost a year, the situation in the state of Michigan has served

as a kind of common attraction for the country at large. Last spring, you

might remember, armed right-wing groups marched on the state Capitol

protesting the public health lockdowns essentially cheered on by President


Then months later, the FBI uncovered a plot to kidnap the governor leading

to more than a dozen arrests. And by late November, with Joe Biden`s clear

and decisive victory Michigan, Trump-aligned attorney Sidney Powell was

peddling wild, unfounded allegations of massive election fraud, documented

in a legal filing riddled with errors.

Well, now Michigan`s top elected officials are pushing for accountability.

On Monday, the state attorney general filed grievances against Powell and

three Michigan attorneys who aided her saying a direct line can be drawn

from the fabrications of Ms. Powell and her associates to the unprecedented

insurrection at the Capitol building in Washington D.C. on January 6th that

sought to topple our national government. Nothing short of permanent

disbarment would be appropriate under these circumstances.

Dana Nessel is the Michigan attorney general who filed those complaints

along with the lawsuit last Thursday suing the four lawyers for attorney`s

fees. And Jocelyn Benson is the Secretary of State in Michigan responsible

for the integrity of state elections, which Powell and her associates

attacked. And both join me now.

I`ll begin with you, Attorney General Nessel. What is the procedure here?

How often is it used and why use it here?

DANA NESSEL, ATTORNEY GENERAL, MICHIGAN: Well, it`s not terribly uncommon

that some sort of complaint is made against an attorney with the attorney

grievance commission. But it is fairly unusual to ask for disbarment as the

remedy. But we thought that it was entirely appropriate given the set of

circumstances. I mean, these are not just any cases. These are cases that

sought to overturn the will of the people as to the presidential election

in Michigan, and sought really to undermine people`s faith in the integrity

of our electoral system.

So, we thought it was the appropriate remedy. And we`re hoping the

attorney`s grievance missions in both Michigan and in the state of Texas

where Sidney Powell is licensed will take consideration into what we`ve


HAYES: Secretary of State Benson, what are the effects been? I know that --

you know, we have polling now that shows just a huge part of the national

electorate believes the election was stolen, as they have been repeatedly

told by, you know, leaders of the Republican Party, conservative media.

There`s some argument that actually having these lawsuits in your state

allowed courts to say this is nonsense, and we`re better for trust in the

system, but I wonder how you see it.


first, we have to recognize that last year`s elections were a great

success. More people voted in Michigan and elsewhere than ever before. And

so, in some ways, the post-election shenanigans in the court -- and through

the court of public opinion really covered that truth.

And to the point that -- to the extent that we were worried about the

security of our elections last year, we ultimately found that the greatest

security threat was not foreign interference but actually these domestic

attacks in the form of lies and misinformation that was spread in an

intentional, calculated way to intentionally mislead people and sow doubt

in our elections. And the misuse and abuse of those who have the very

privilege to present arguments in a court of law, for them to abuse that

privilege to intentionally try to undermine the will of the people is

particularly pernicious. It was unprecedented.

And it was particularly challenging and disappointing given the fact that

it was in line with a very successful election that saw so many people on

both sides of the aisle engaged in the process and believing in the process

through deciding to cast their votes in November.

HAYES: Attorney General, there have been responses from some of the lawyers

named. A lawyer for Sidney Powell saying that it was improper using the

color of your office as Attorney General to try to unlawfully influence the

district judge on pending motions. Others accusing you essentially of this

being a political vendetta, that it wasn`t the ethical substance of the

actual actions taken, but that because it was taken on behalf of a

political cause, you oppose, that you`re trying to mete out this


NESSEL: Chris, these attorneys sought to undermine the vote of the people

of the state of Michigan. Secretary Benson and I represent the people of

the state of Michigan, as does Governor Whitmer. And it just so happens

that all three of us are licensed attorneys. So, if not us, if we are not

the ones to fight back against these types of lies in this effort to

undermine this election and undermine our democracy, then who are the

proper and appropriate authorities who should bring such a, you know, such

a case or such a complaint? I would argue that we are entirely the

appropriate actors to do that.

And I will say this further. I mean, if those individuals that were

involved in the interaction of the capital, they really believe what was in

these lawsuits. They truly drank the Kool-Aid. And if they drank the Kool-

Aid, then it was these lawyers that mixed it, stirred it, and served it up

in Dixie cups to all of these individuals and that fan the flames of this

horrific fire. They are responsible, and they ought to be held accountable.

HAYES: Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel and Secretary of State Jocelyn

Benson, thank you both for making time tonight.

BENSON: Our pleasure, Chris. Thanks.

HAYES: Earlier, we talked about how House Republicans are voting tonight on

whether or not to strip Liz Cheney of her leadership position because she

voted to impeach Donald Trump. The vote is now in. The House Republican

caucus has voted by secret ballot to let her keep her job. NBC News

Correspondent Leigh Ann Caldwell is at the Capitol and she joins me now.

How did this vote go down? Do we have a -- do we have a tally?


just took place in this room right behind me down a flight of stairs. The

tally was pretty significant in favor of Liz Cheney about 145 to 61. So,

that means there was just about 60 members who voted to strip her from her

position as the number three Republican in the House Conference.

So, it was a secret ballot, so we don`t know exactly how people voted. But

I will say that it was -- it was a lot less than I expected. There was

hours of debate about Liz Cheney and her role in the conference. Everyone

was talking about it was a family discussion. So, we didn`t get a lot of

details. There seems to be a big muzzle around what did happen there.

But we do know that Marjorie Taylor Greene, who there was not a vote about

her tonight, she did get up to speak and there were some members who gave

her a little bit of a standing ovation. She was well-received I am told.

HAYES: 145 to 61 in a secret ballot. That is -- I mean, that is I suppose

encouraging insofar as the caucus has decided that they will not cast out a

member for the sheer heterodoxy of voting to impeach the president of the

United States. And that`s a fairly wide margin. Although deposing

leadership is a big deal. I mean, if it had gone the other way, would have

been an enormous earthquake, right?

CALDWELL: It would have been extremely significant, especially on the same

day that they were having this big discussion about Marjorie Taylor Greene,

who has said in the past that Parkland was a false flag operation. She had

been a supporter of QAnon. And McCarthy earlier in the day, the Republican

leader, had come out and said that he was not going to support stripping

her of her committee assignments.

So, if the conference after that news then voted to strip Liz Cheney write

her number three position, that would have been extremely significant and a

very big signal to the country of what the Republican Party stands for.

Right now, they`re keeping it as status quo.

HAYES: Right. I guess -- that`s well said, right? What ended up getting set

up here was a kind of, well, let`s not do anything about either equilibrium

that essentially prevailed in both cases in terms of the caucus.

CALDWELL: That`s absolutely right. They`re going to try to live to fight

another day. And now, tomorrow, the Democrats are planning on moving

forward on a resolution to strip Marjorie Taylor Greene from her committee

assignments. That is pretty unprecedented that one party would try to strip

another party`s members from committee assignments.

And so, what Republicans are leaning into is democratic overreach. They are

saying that they are -- McCarthy in his statement said they are raising the

temperature of partisanship and politics on Capitol Hill by Democrats

forcing this vote.

So, it now look like they`re going to shift the focus and try to, you know

-- I just keep hearing this term from Republican members over and over

again, democratic overreach. They think that the impeachment is democratic

overreach. They think that the thing that saves Republicans over and over

again is overreaction from Democrats. And they`re going to try to play into

that tomorrow when the House takes this vote because Republicans did not

act regarding Marjorie Taylor Greene, and then they`re keeping Cheney in

her position so they`re going to try to change the topic. Chris?

HAYES: Yes, it`s like law of unintended consequences. Like, when you aim

your space laser down to pursue your plans of world domination, you end up

with a forest fire, sort of like that. NBC News Correspondent Leigh Ann

Caldwell live at the Capitol tonight, thank you very much.

CALDWELL: Thank you.

HAYES: Over in the Senate, Democrats won the majority on January 6th in

almost one month and one insurrection later. They are finally taking their

committee chairs, their gavels, their precious gavels. Members of Congress

love to chair things. And this happened after Senate Majority Leader Chuck

Schumer and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell reached an agreement earlier

today on how to run a 50-50 Senate, allowing Democrats to pass the

organizing resolution and take majority control of the upper chamber.

Now, the question becomes, can Democrats advance the President`s agenda

particularly on major legislation and nominees with their razor-thin

majority? I`m joined now by Senator Tim Kaine, Democrat from Virginia.

I guess first, it finally happened. Today was the day you guys now -- you

guys now have control. Congratulations.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Thank you, Chris. We feel very, very good about it.

You control the agenda. So, it`s 50, but once you`re the majority, you can

determine the hearings will happen, you can determine what bills get marked

up in committee, you can determine what bills get attention on the floor,

and that is a very, very good thing.

HAYES: So, let`s talk about that. There have been a number of committees

that have moved forward with Republicans chairing them, essentially, to

confirm a number of members at the Cabinet. There are some notable

exceptions, including Merrick Garland, a man who is familiar with

senatorial dithering, and was probably hoping to not experience that again,

but has not yet had a hearing, I think, in the justice -- the Judicial

Committee, and is not clear when he`s going to be confirmed. What`s up with


KAINE: Well, no surprise, Chris. The Republicans are wild about the

Department of Justice. And so, they`re glad to dither and not have a

hearing on the attorney general who by all accounts is one of the foremost

consequential cabinet secretaries. But as of today, we have named the

Democratic committee chairs. Dick Durbin is the chair of Judiciary and we

feel very compelled to move forward with Merrick Garland as promptly as we


We`ve got to battle white supremacy and domestic terrorism. We`ve got to

keep America safe from the crimes that an attorney general is always

focused on. I`m not on the Judiciary Committee, but I have a feeling Durbin

is going to, you know, bring this up pretty quickly.

HAYES: The biggest priority right now is COVID relief. And, you know,

there`s very few dynamics here. One, you got polling showing 65, 70 percent

of Americans support it, even large percentages of Republicans. You`ve got

Governor Justice down in West Virginia, a state that Trump won by 50 points

saying, for heaven`s sake, go big.

What is the sentiment about how quickly to move and whether you need to

negotiate with yourself, which I`m going to get to in a second, in the

Democratic caucus?

KAINE: So, Chris, you know, this is inside baseball, but Democrats are very

focused on the tool of budget reconciliation, which is a tool that`s

available to both parties. It`s been used to do some of the most bipartisan

legislation we`ve done in the last few decades, like the chip bill, the

Children`s Health Insurance Bill or the earned income tax credit.

But the good news is you can use -- you can use budget reconciliation to do

big important things promptly with a simple majority vote. And that`s what

we`re setting up to do. Because the death toll is staggering every day. We

see death tolls in excess of the number of Americans killed on 9/11. The

economic consequences staggering. The American public is suffering, and

they need big action and they need a big action soon.

We`re in dialogue with Republicans because we want to put into that bill

priorities that they think are important, priorities that matter to their

voters and their states. But we`re not interested in slowing down and

letting Americans suffer slowly over this raging fire. We got to provide

relief and we got to provide it fast.

HAYES: There`s a lot in the relief package. There`s money for states and

municipalities, there`s money for vaccination program, there`s expanded tax

credit for families with children, there`s a whole bunch. There`s been a

lot of focus on direct cash relief, the checks, the $2,000 checks, partly

because it was a big part of that campaign down the stretch in Georgia that

that won the majority.

I want to play you something that the press secretary Jen Psaki said today

about considerations in negotiations that I think are happening within the

Democratic Party about paring back eligibility on those checks. Take a



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Earlier today, on the call with House Democrats, the

President talks about better targeting the stimulus checks. I wonder if you

could just explain what he meant by that and what might be under


JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Further targeting means not the

size of the check. It means the income level of people who received the

check, and that`s something that has been under discussion, there hasn`t

been a conclusion, but certainly, he`s open to having that discussion.


HAYES: OK, here`s my -- here`s my pitch to you, Senator, then I`ll shut up.

Don`t do this, A. B, if you have to do it, and you need 50 votes, so

whatever, just give people checks and tax it back next year if they had a

good year and didn`t need it. This idea that you`re going to means test our

2019 income, which is currently, it is not capturing the need. Please don`t

do this. OK, you respond. I`ll shut up now.

KAINE: Chris, so, here`s what I -- here`s what I -- so, I absolutely agree

with the White House. We shouldn`t shrink the check amount. But I do think

what the White House is talking about, the $1.9 trillion, that`s what we

need to do. And look, if we target the check a little bit more in terms of

the means but we take the money we save and we put it into more vaccines,

or more unemployment insurance, or more housing aid, or more SNAP benefits,

we can -- we can meet the needs.

So, the issue about the $1,400 check, it connects with a whole lot of other

priorities in this bill that are about (AUDIO GAP) suffering America. So, I

think the targeting thing is not a bad discussion to get into as long as we

are going big and going prompt because Americans are still suffering.

HAYES: Well, I would agree that that don`t -- you know, don`t hold it up

over that. I just think, again, the logic here of means testing gets

complicated and people don`t -- their income in 2019 isn`t relevant. All I

would say is the tax code next year is a great means and it will score the

same -- by the way, for CBO purposes, it`ll score the same if you just tax

it back next year. So, that`s my -- that`s my little piece here.

Senator Tim Kaine, I`m not a senator, but I just -- you know, I can`t help

but offer my opinion. Thank you so much for making time tonight.

KAINE: You could be a budget committee staffer, Chris, with that comment.

HAYES: OK. It`s true though. All right, one of the big questions facing

Democrats in the Senate is whether they should eliminate the filibuster.

That`s the topic of the latest episode of my podcast Why is this Happening?

where Senate insider Adam Jentleson lays out how we got filibuster in the

first place, why it becomes Mitch McConnell`s go-to move. Find that

wherever you get your podcast.

That`s ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW" show starts right now.

Good evening, Rachel.




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