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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 11/3/21

Guests: Tom Perriello, Alex Wagner, Anthony Fauci, Kris Brown


Former President Donald Trump echoed in one of his multiple statements today taking credit for Glenn Youngkin`s win in Virginia. President Trump endorses a slew of problematic Republican candidates for the Midterm Election. More than 28 million young children are now eligible to get vaccinated after the CDC director signed off last night on a low- dose two-shot Pfizer vaccine for children ages 5 to 11. NBC News projects that Gov. Phil Murphy (D-NJ) wins the New Jersey governor`s race.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New York City where the police unions threatened to -- the mandate would relieve upwards of 10,000 officers. That number at the beginning of the week was only a whopping 34. And according to the police commissioner, there -- 85 percent of the NYPD staff are now vaccinated.

All right, that is tonight REIDOUT. Don`t worry, joy will be back tomorrow. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It clearly was a fair election and I applaud the governor-elect.

HAYES: The most important takeaway from a bad night for Democrats, including an ongoing Trump problem for Republicans even as he fades from relevance. And the conspiracies he indulged move on without him or JFK Jr.

Plus, my interview with Dr. Anthony Fauci as the first shots go into the first arms of kids under 11 years old.

And does anyone really think that adding more guns into these types of situations is a good idea?

Today`s high stakes hearing in the Supreme Court where conservatives are on the add gun side when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. You know much of the coverage of the election results last night in Virginia and New Jersey and elsewhere use words like shocking and surprising. And I have to say, that does not really scan for me.

The election results were in many ways incredibly expected. That New Jersey gubernatorial race was closer than almost anyone thought it would be. And I should tell you, the Associated Press has called the race for incumbent Democratic Governor Phil Murphy, but the NBC News decision desk is still waiting to see additional information.

In Virginia, remember, before election day, the polling averages showed a neck and neck race right down to the wire. In fact, polls have been trending towards Republican Glenn Youngkin in the final stretch of the election. Frankly, all that tracks with what we would expect in this political moment.

Historically, incumbent Democratic governors do not do well in New Jersey. Should Governor Murphy pull off a very narrow victory, he`ll be the first Democrat to win a second consecutive turn in New Jersey since the 1970s. And in the last 12 gubernatorial elections of Virginia, only one has been won by the party holding the White House, which was ironically enough, Terry McAuliffe`s narrow victory back in 2013.

Here`s the basic situation. When a party is in power, as the Democrats are in the White House, it often mobilizes the opposition party. It`s part of the political gravity it is held for decades. I mean, heck, look back to the 1930s, all right, 1934 aside, which was an anomalous situation, when the Democrats under President Franklin Roosevelt got absolutely blown out in the 1938 midterm elections.

That`s after they did all the New Deal stuff everyone loved. The man was so popular. He was elected president four times and even he suffered the same kind of political backlash to his presidency that we`re seeing last night. In many ways, just an unavoidable part of our political reality in a divided country.

There`s another interesting angle in Virginia, which is that in many ways, Republicans kind of turned back the clock a little bit. They nominated a very Bush-era-style candidate circa 2003. And Glenn Youngkin is a private equity baron in a vest. He talks about economic issues. And when he pushes talking points that are meant to flirt with and stoke white backlash, he does so in a coded way with dog whistles about education.

And while I think that kind of coded talk and who it is intended to appeal to is bad, obviously. There`s no designing it has been a successful strategy for Republican candidates for decades, dating back to Richard Nixon`s talk about law and order Ronald Reagan`s speech on welfare and states` rights in Mississippi.

But that`s different in appreciably than the much more explicit racism that we saw from Republican candidates under Donald Trump`s leadership. Like, with this guy named Corey Stewart also in Virginia, he narrowly lost the Republican primary for governor in 2017 and was the Republican candidate for Senate in 2018. He ran statewide, openly flirted with alt-right talking points, argued that removing the Confederate flag from Virginia was akin to the quote -- state "losing its identity." That was not Glenn Youngkin`s campaign.

Glenn Youngkin very much tried and successfully achieved having it both ways. He did stoke white grievance politics to mobilize the Republican base, the ad of the white mother who is upset that her kid was being taught Toni Morrison`s Beloved. But he did while not alienating the kind of white suburban voters who trended towards Democrats in the Trump era.

I think the appeals best symbolized by this picture of this person attending Glenn Youngkin rally on Monday with the Confederate flag sewn into the back of their jacket. That person knows exactly what Youngkin means for him to hear when Youngkin talks about education.


And the fact that Youngkin can win while sort of half embracing Donald Trump and also keeping him at arm`s length, that clearly has the former president panicked about his own influence over the Republican Party because here`s the thing. Last night results, I think, prove that in large parts of the country, and maybe everywhere, the Republican Party does not need Trump anymore.

The MAGA base, white rural voters will show up for elections to vote for Republicans without Trump standing on the ballot, which is why we`re seeing this increasing sense of desperation from the ex-president. Trump released a flurry of statements in the run up to the election endorsing Youngkin and talking about how much the two men liked one another and share policy goals.

And then over the weekend, he turned to Fox News to make sure everyone understood how important Donald Trump would be for Glenn Youngkin`s campaign.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think he should win. I mean, he should win. I`ll be honest, my base has to turn out. If my base turns out, he`s going to win. And I hope they turn out. I really want them to turn out.


HAYES: It`s a sentiment Trump echoed in one of his multiple statements today taking credit for Youngkin`s win. "I would like to thank my base for coming out in force and voting for Glenn Youngkin. Without you, he would not have been close to winning. The MAGA movement is bigger and stronger than ever before.

You can smell the desperation coming off that statement, the multiple statements he put out saying the same thing. Nearly a year out from office, Trump says his movement is stronger than ever, but I`m not so sure. We`re an interesting moment right now, right? I mean, the reality of what happened last night, the image of Glenn Youngkin, private equity baron up there, you know, talking about education and normal Republican issues, is kind of a version of normal politics for lack of a better word.

At the same time, we are watching this metastasizing abnormality of American politics that is continuing to grow underneath the surface. All you have to do is check on what the Trump movement was up to yesterday. To start with, at least seven Republicans who were in D.C. for the January 6 insurrection were elected in state and local races last night, although they say they did not actually breached the Capitol with the violent mob.

The real action was in Texas of all places where you might have seen this hundreds of people, including many supporters of the far-right conspiracy theory known as QAnon, which espouses among many, many bonkers claims that a satanic cabal of politicians and celebrities are involved in a massive child sex trafficking ring. They gathered in Dealey Plaza in Dallas. That, of course, the site where President John F. Kennedy was assassinated back in 1963.

And they did that because some QAnon supporters believe that President Kennedy`s son, JFK Jr. who tragically died in a plane accident back in 1999 actually faked his death and is going to return to the public stage to announce that he will be Donald Trump`s vice president.

And what`s interesting about this, and I think, noteworthy, why we`re covering, why we`re showing you this footage, this was not a big hyped-up event. This isn`t one of those things where lots of press coverage leading up to this rally and there`s more reporters and there are, you know, protesters. In fact, it caught a lot of reporters by surprise. They kind of stumbled onto it through social media, hundreds of people just congregating.

Of course, JFK Jr. did not materialize last night and the hundreds of QAnon supporters went home disappointed. But that`s a little glimpse into where at least part of the MAGA movement is right now. And so, Republicans, they need to decide whether they want to return to the kind of, you know, coded politics of the past before Trump, or run with a guy whose diehard supporters believe a dead man is going to ascend to the vice presidency before Trump can enact swift retribution on all their perceived enemies.

Alex Wagner is a co-host of Showtimes The Circus, a contributing writer at The Atlantic. She covered the gubernatorial race from the ground in Virginia. Former Congressman Tom Perriello represented Virginia`s Fifth Congressional District from 2009 to 2011. He has a new opinion piece in the New York Times today titled Youngkin`s victory in Virginia as a warning, also a roadmap. And they join me now.

Tom, let me start with you because I was in Charlottesville on election night in 2010 where you lost that race in the -- in the big sort of Tea Party backlash. You have -- you have personally experienced this. What do you make of what happened last month?

TOM PERRIELLO, FORMER VIRGINIA DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE: Look, I think it is a warning in time for Democrats to avoid next year the losses that we had in 2010. First of all, it was a much closer election. We saw the Democratic coalition turnout in a close race. But really, at the end of the day, I think we saw that simply being anti-Trump is not enough. Democrats are going to have to show the results that they`re producing for everyday folks.

It`s a good reason to get the Biden build-back agenda passed and past faster. And actually saw with the delegates, many of whom are running to the left of the ticket, they actually survived and kept most of the gains from 2017 that they lost seats by running on having expanded the minimum wage, expanding Medicaid and health care benefits and delivering a paid family leave.

So, I think where Democrats can show those results, in addition to naming the hatefulness, that is Trumpism 2.0, there`s still time to put together a winning formula for next year.


HAYES: Alex, you did some reporting, you did great interview with one mom in Virginia who I keep thinking about because when we asked her, you know, what`s your issue of the curriculum, she basically said, well, there was an assignment that sort of ran down Andrew Jackson for, you know, ethnic cleansing, and I didn`t really like that very much. And I thought, OK, well, that`s a real grievance. I mean, that`s not invented. That`s -- your kid really did have an assignment that really did call Andrew Jackson, you know, purveyor of ethnic cleansing, and you really don`t want him to learn that.

But I also wonder, like, how much this sort of education issue and all that stuff, how much that was playing, and how much it`s just like, this is what a kind of national environment that`s in a kind of backlash moment looks like?

ALEX WAGNER, CO-HOST, THE CIRCUS: Well, I mean, I think you have to look at a couple of different weather patterns in Virginia. The first is that the state has seen just dramatic racial diversification in the last 25, 30 years. And there have been a lot of growing pains to put it lightly around that, right?

The NAACP has had its sights on the Virginia School System for a while because of racist incidents. It`s filed complaints with the Attorney General`s Office. And as a response to that, and current events, like, for example, the murder of George Floyd or Ahmaud Arbery, or Breonna Taylor, the school system has tried to be more inclusive in its curriculum.

Now, conservatives in the state magnified by the dark money conservative movement and you know, Fox News, have called it critical race theory. But what`s happening is a bid to make the curriculum taught in schools more inclusive, more accurate in terms of history, and more responsive to the needs of a diverse and changing population. That`s a new problem to have.

As much as we talk about Glenn Youngkin as kind of a throwback to Republican politicians, if you`re the problem that he`s kind of trying to tackle, if you will, in Virginia, is very much a 21st-century one. How do we talk about race and structural racism in our history of racism in America in a way that is inclusive and accurate. And what that woman that I spoke to, she`s the head of the Loudoun County Republican Women`s Club, a former GOP strategist, and a mom of six, the issue she had was the way those lessons were being taught denigrated whiteness.

And that`s the fundamental problem for these parents and this anti-CRT movement. They don`t like the way whiteness is being portrayed in these new, more inclusive lessons. And that is a complicated issue to solve all around.

HAYES: Yes, and I should be clear --

WAGNER: And so, it`s different, and it`s also the same.

HAYES: Yes. I mean, I should be clear. Like, people have all sorts of grievances in it. But given education system, I think that actually, when you look at Youngkin`s messaging, he was very smartly talking about things like teacher pay. Like, he cut ads on teacher pay. Everyone is talking about the CRT part, and that was part of it, but he was out there saying, like, we`re going to raise teacher pay.

I also think, Tom, again, I think this satisfies no one because everyone after an election like this has their sort of like, they talk their book about like, well, it was because of this or that. You know, Biden was elected because Donald Trump drove a lot of people nuts. And the country went through a once-in-a-century catastrophe that he abjectly mismanaged. And the promise was like, we`re going to get back to normal, whatever normal is, something better than this madness.

And, you know, it looked like that was happening in the spring. And then the summer, it felt a lot less normal. It was like Delta was back, places were closing, again, all this stuff. And I just think like, there`s supply chain stuff, that it`s bad vibes, gas prices are high, people feel like, this is not normal. And like, that`s the Occam`s Razor story of what we`re seeing.

PERRIELLO: Well, look, I want to agree with that and then also go back to a really important point that Alex made. So, first of all, I think voters are angry, and they keep voting for change. And I think some people misread Biden`s nomination as being this desire to return to the old but in fact, he was changed relative to what Trump represented.

Now, Biden is the president. So, when voters are angry, they want something that`s different from that. And Youngkin did a very good job of presenting himself as the outsider who is ready to drain the swamp of Richmond with equal sort of credibility to Trump doing so in D.C. But the fact was, he was able to pay Terry McAuliffe as the insider. The ads I was getting for the last two weeks were about all of the corporate PAC donations that Terry McAuliffe had taken in earlier campaigns.

So, I think as Democrats think about where they need to position themselves, right now being anti-establishment or at least being against the corruption is a good position to take, not trying to revert to an old D.C. consensus which is much of what people are reacting against.


To Alex`s point, I think this both presents a painful truth and an opportunity. We would expect if you look at times when a white majority has essentially ceded power, you have reconstruction, which ended with an ethnic cleansing. And you have California in the 1990s, which ended with a multiracial coalition that is held more or less since that time.

It is not hard for Democrats to be the party of public education. We want kids to have schools that are safe and teach accurate history, not fairytales. And many of those parents, White, Black, and Brown want their kids to be learning real history. And when we talk about it that way, even when some of those things are uncomfortable, we want our kids to learn critical thinking skills. That`s how they`re going to compete in today`s work environment. And we shouldn`t be afraid of that.

Part of what`s happened is Democrats have wanted to unilaterally call for a detente in the culture wars because the Democratic Party doesn`t support CRT and doesn`t support defund. Therefore, it`s not surprising that if only one side is fighting this war that they are winning it very much handedly.

So, we should talk about being pro-teacher, talk about being for a safe and accurate curriculum as we see Confederate monuments that were propaganda monument down, we see monuments to Black Liberation go up. That is true history. It`s also inspiring history when it`s taught the right way.

HAYES: Alex Wagner and Tom Perriello, we`ll just end up saying it`s an amazing story of America that the former CEO of the Carlyle Group -- Carlyle Group got himself elected governor. It`s just an incredible story to see. Thank you both.

PERRIELLO: As an outsider, yes.

HAYES: Yes. One reason a fairly generic candidate like Glenn Youngkin was able to win an increasingly radicalized Republican Party is that his state party fixed it so you don`t have to beat a diehard MAGA candidate in the primary. But there are much Trumpier candidates out there that could cause major headaches for Republicans and we`ll explain next.



HAYES: In the lead up for last night`s election in Virginia, it was difficult to paint Republican Glenn Youngkin as Trump in a fleece vest. He was able to present himself successfully as a kind of neutral, affable rich dad. He was able to emerge from the convention process that spared him the kind of primary in which he could be outflanked by some hardcore MAGA candidate.

That`s not the case and a lot of the upcoming statewide races across the country. So, for the upcoming Midterms in 2022, Donald Trump has even more incentive now to put his stamp on the party`s primaries. Again, you could feel the desperation coming from him as he watched this unfold yesterday.

The question Republicans now faces how many Glenn Youngkin`s can be a field as opposed to how many Sean Parnells. Sean Parnell is an Afghanistan war veteran from Western Pennsylvania. He`s in the running to fill retiring Republican Senator Pat Toomey`s seat which is a critical seat for Republicans hoping to take back the Senate.

Parnell is also endorsed by Donald Trump. He has his complete and total endorsement. And while he is running for this important seat, he is in the midst right now of a divorce and custody battle for his three children. On Monday, Parnell`s estranged wife, Laurie Snell, testified under oath that he allegedly and I`m going to quote here, "choked her until she beat him to escape, and once called her a whore and a piece of S while pinning her down."

She also testified that after 2008 Thanksgiving trip, Parnell "Briefly forced her out of her vehicle alongside a highway after raging at her, telling her to go get an abortion." She testified the alleged abuse extended to their children saying that on one occasion, Parnell slapped one child hard enough to leave fingerprint-shaped welts to the back of the child`s T-shirt. And that he once got so angry, he punched a closet door with such force, it swung into a child`s face and left a bruise." She said, Parnell told his child that was your fault." Sean Parnell denied the claims. He said he will present his case in court next week.

Parnell was not alone. He`s just one of many candidates with similar, let`s say, problematic profiles of Trump has endorsed, candidates that have a big chance of being on the ballot next year`s midterm election and in the 2024 general election.

Michael Steele is a former chair of the Republican National Committee, and he joins me now. You know, Michael, there`s a history here. We saw it in 2010. It happened again in 2012 of Republicans having a shot at the Senate and ending up with candidates that lost them races that they probably should have won. Christine O`Donnell in Delaware is a really famous one.

How do you think of this now with Youngkin having secured this victory, having never had to run into primary and compare that to what these primary fields look like in a lot of these center races?

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: And Chris, you just put your finger on a very important difference between the race that we just saw unfold and the races that are about to come up. What Virginia Republicans did and the country should know, in Virginia, you can choose whether to go into an actual primary where on election day, you have a primary day and voters from across the state go vote, or you can have a party convention in which the party officials will meet and they will decide who, you know, with the activists and, you know, Central Committee Chairman and so forth, who the nominee of the party will be.

Instead of the primary they chose the convention because they wanted to tailor-made the result. They wanted to get the candidate who could be competitive enough in a race across the state --

HAYES: The fix was there.

STEELE: You could put it that way. Exactly.

HAYES: I mean, they were -- I mean, like, they were doing -- in some ways, they`re doing what the establishment supposed to do.

STEELE: But it`s a good fix.

HAYES: Right.


HAYES: But yes, they wanted it to be Youngkin and they didn`t want -- they didn`t want Corey Stewart or whatever, right.

STEELE: Right. And that`s perfectly OK and perfectly fine. Parties have those -- have those options in some states to do that. Here`s the rub across the rest of the map though. What you`re seeing now in the races, as you`ve identified from Herschel Walker in Georgia and Parnell and others, is that they go through -- they go through this primary where typically hard-edged party loyalists come out. We say the most conservative part of the party on the right, the most liberal progressive part of the party on the left. We saw that play out in -- I was in Buffalo or in the race up there.

So, the reality of it is now this is the space and you set it up perfectly and put your foot where Trump is going to really come into play. This race, as I`ve looked at it now, this race that we just saw in Virginia was Trump`s sort of like, OK, I want to get a good one here.

Trump was not happy about this way this played out because he was basically kicked to the curb and told to stay there.


STEELE: But he -- but now he can make the claim, I got one.

HAYES: Interesting.

STEELE: I got a governor elected in a blue state, right. And that pivots him and sets him up well to look at all these other races, Chris, where they`re going to be clamoring if they`re not already and many are, to get that endorsement to push them to their primary and set them up for what they think is going to be a very aggressive competitive race against Democrats next fall.


HAYES: Yes. And there`s a few things that I think are interesting here. One is, you`ve got the -- you`ve got the bio problems of someone like Sean Parnell. I mean, in most normal circumstances, like you don`t want someone -- and I have no idea whether these allegations are true or not, but you don`t want to field a candidate whose ex-wife is saying, he abused me, he told me to go get an abortion, he hit our kids so hard that -- you know, I mean, you don`t -- that`s -- you know, you don`t want that, right?

STEELE: Right.

HAYES: You`ve also got this -- the other thing about Youngkin was that again, Trump changed so much about politics that returned to the old normal feel fresh. Like, Youngkin didn`t seem like he was going out of his way to be like an obnoxious jerk all the time to everyone, which is normally how politics work. Again, across the spectrum, try to be likable.

And then you`ve got -- you look over this Ohio Senate primary and you`ve got -- it seems like they`re all competing with each other to be as obnoxious as possible in the hope that that`s what gets the -- that`s what gets the Trump endorsement.

STEELE: And that`s what happens when you have a system set up the way it is in these -- in these races where there -- where there is an actual primary and the MAGA base is expected to turn out. Youngkin -- I have not met a governor like Youngkin personally. I know of him. We have a mutual -- lot of mutual friends. And he is that guy in many respects that we saw in this campaign.

He is a family man, a businessman. He`s very approachable. And I think you`re going to see that on the back end up. Now, you can have policy debates, but what you`re looking at strategically is how he approached the election --

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: Given that he was not a Trump -- a Trump guy.

HAYES: That`s the question though. The question for me is, can you -- here`s the thing that I want Republican strategist to realize, which I think is true. You don`t need Trump.

STEELE: You don`t.

HAYES: Those people are going to -- they`re going to crawl over broken glass to vote against the Democrats now, Trump or no Trump because you already have them. You don`t need him. You`re better off without him. And I wonder how much Republican strategist get that message from this?

STEELE: A lot more than one may think. Certainly a lot more than you may hear in a public square coming on a program like this talk about it. It is -- it is -- you know, as we`ve seen with a lot inside my party over the last few years, there are a lot of hushed tones and sidebar conversations and nodding heads and rolling eyes and oh my God.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: And then they get out in public, and they`re like, you know, Donald Trump is the best thing to happen to the Republican Party, and they head off stage and throw up in the trash can.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: So, this is -- this is the reality that the party now finds itself. And what I think you`re going to see in some races are candidates coming out and saying, bunk that, I`m going to stand firm on conservative Republican principles, I`m going to run my race, and I`m going to make my case and take my chances. Because to your more important point, what a lot of folks know to be true, you don`t need Trump to win. That was proven last night.

HAYES: It was.

STEELE: Maybe by accident, maybe deliberately, but it was proven last night.

HAYES: Michael Steele, thank you so much. It was great.

STEELE: You got it, buddy.

HAYES: Coming up, it`s the moment millions of Americans have been waiting for, kids 5 and older can get that vax. Dr. Anthony Fauci is here to walk us through what this means for families and schools right after the break.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take a big breath, big breath.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good job. You did it.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congratulations. Are you happy about it?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are you happy?

GIGLIO: Because I`m halfway there to doing no masks and stuff that I couldn`t do before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Do you feel like maybe this gives you a little bit more protection?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Did you need convincing to do it or you were ready to do it?

GIGLIO: I was ready.


HAYES: The day that millions of parents cross country, myself included, have been waiting for has finally arrived. More than 28 million young children are now eligible to get vaccinated after the CDC director signed off last night on a low-dose two-shot Pfizer vaccine for children ages five to 11.

While most kids don`t get as sick as adults from COVID, more than two million kids aged 5 to 11 have gotten COVID, more than 8300 were hospitalized, 173 died. Although again, when you think about that out of two million cases. Vaccinating kids will not only help keep them safe, it will help slow down the spread of the disease too. It should bring general community transmission down.

Families are already signing their kids up with the vaccine, millions of doses already been shipped across the country. Because this is an entirely new vaccination program with smaller doses and smaller needles than the regular shot, it is unclear just how quickly it will move along.

Dr. Anthony Fauci is the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institute of Health. He`s also the Chief Medical Adviser to President Joe Biden, and he joins me now.

First of all, Dr. Fauci, how does this work in the next week just the immediate, you know, distribution? Like, is this already Present geographically across the country? Can people expect to go to their local pharmacy or their pediatrician and get the shot?


DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes, very, very soon, Chris. The preparation for this in anticipation of the favorable response of the regulatory agency, the FDA, and then, as you mentioned last night, when the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices made the recommendation by a unanimous vote, to make this vaccine available to children 5 to 11.

We were preparing for this for quite a while to the point where by the time we get just a few days into November 8, we will be at full speed. So, it`s inching up to that over the next few days. But clearly, by the time we get into next week, we`re going to have all systems go. Namely, have the product available appropriately in pharmacies, in pediatric offices, in children`s hospitals, and in places of distribution for the children. So, we hope to really be able to put a full-court press on this and hopefully, get as many of these children vaccinated as possible.

HAYES: So, what I`m hearing from you -- I just want to be crystal clear on this. Right now, if you`re for adult doses in anywhere in the U.S., it`s very easy to find vaccination almost anywhere. I mean, they exist to chain pharmacies. You could walk in. It`s not like in the battle days of like, reloading a website.

What I`m hearing from you saying a week out from today, you`re hoping that we`re in roughly a similar situation of if you want to take your kid to go vaccinate, you can do it.

FAUCI: Exactly. That`s precisely the case. We`re aiming to be November 8 at full speed.

HAYES: Got you. There are -- I am not a parent who is reluctant, hesitant, worried about giving my kids the vaccine. In fact, I`m one of those who`s going to do it as soon as possible. There are parents I think, who are vaccinated themselves who are not generally vaccine resistant, who may feel a little more concern, anxious about kids. Parents tend to be a little more, you know, worried anxious about kids, what goes in their kids bodies. How do you think about the messaging there and about the patients and what the -- what level of uptake you`re anticipating?

FAUCI: Well, first of all, we absolutely have to respect the concerns of parents, because parents are going to have valid questions. And it`s up to us in our communication to answer those questions and to make that information available widely. I mean, you want to have trusted messengers. Some of the best trusted messengers in these cases would be pediatricians, or family members, or people who have had vaccination as an adult, and can talk about the results.

The data are very clear, Chris, the efficacy data and the safety data. Our FDA particularly when it comes to children are very, very scrupulous in figuring out whether or not we have a benefit-risk ratio that`s favorable to the benefit, and they clearly came out with that. And that`s the reason why they authorized it. And that`s the reason why we had a 14 to zero recommendation from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, whose job is to look out for both the safety of the children as well as the protection from the vaccines.

So, we got to get that message across to parents and not put down or be put off by they`re very, very valid questions. We like them to ask questions. We believe we have the data to back up the answers.

HAYES: The vaccination for kids aged five to 11, and obviously, there are kids younger than five, but it strikes me as a real milestone in this respect. At some point in my life, I hope we`re not going to be living in the midst of a pandemic. There`s a sort of technical public health term for what makes something a pandemic.

Diseases can go from -- infectious disease and go from pandemic endemic, right? We have the flu season every year. We have other endemic of coronaviruses that travel around that bring what`s called the common cold. It seems to me -- like, when do we get to that? Because the current situation is kind of unsustainable. It`s been unraveling in a million different ways. And I think you see it bubbling up socially, politically, culturally.

But some universe in which we say, look, this thing is out there like the flu. It presents some risk. We`re going to take steps to mitigate against it. But it will not like hang over our society.

FAUCI: Right. Right. And I think we can get there. So, let me just very briefly explain. You characterize it quite correctly, Chris. You have a pandemic, a pandemic phase, when things in many respects are out of control. Then you get a turning around of a deflection of the dynamics of the outbreak.

From there you go into control, and control is a wide bracket, because better than control is elimination. For example, we`ve eliminated polio from the United States. We`ve eliminated Malaria from the United States. The next one down is eradication. I don`t think we should be aspirational about eradication. I don`t think that`s going to occur.


Hopefully, we may ultimately be able to eliminate it. But given the transmissibility of this particular virus, I don`t think that`s something that we`re going to see in the future, in the reasonable future. But control is where we want to be. And we want to be at control at a low enough level of background infection in the community, with a large proportion of individuals vaccinated, and those who in fact, were infected, they will have a degree of protection for a period of time. We`re recommending that they ultimately wind up getting vaccinated too so that you have a veil of protection over the community. So, even though you haven`t eliminated it, it`s not having an impact on our way of life. That`s what I would consider adequate control.

HAYES: I mean, just in terms of my mental preparation -- so I`m watching cases are going back up in Europe where -- which is quite vaccinated in some countries even more vaccinated than us. I`ve watched the experience in New York City, which is a high vaccination threshold comparatively, had a case rise from Delta, but kept that hospitalization and fatality low.

And I guess I just wondering like, we should expect cases to go up this winter. They`re going to go up. If we`re at sufficient thresholds of vaccination, can we basically look at this as not the kind of looming threat to our healthcare system and our well-being and our mortality, morbidity that it has been in the past?

FAUCI: The answer to that is yes. If we continue to get people vaccinated, and now we have 28 million children from 5 to 11 who are eligible to be vaccinated, we have not as many as we`d like, of the adolescents who are going to get vaccinated, about half of them are, we want to get that number up.

If we continue to really eat away at that recalcitrant number of around 60 million and get more people vaccinated, we`re obviously going to have cases because when you get the cold weather, you put people indoors, sometimes they even pull back on mitigation. But we certainly want to make sure we don`t get severe disease among a significant number of people, or hospitalizations.

If we can go in a steady way to keep people more and more vaccinated -- you mentioned Europe, it`s very interesting, Chris, if you look at the profile of Europe, and look at the countries that are high vaccinated, namely more than 70 percent of the population has at least one dose, the cases are way down.

If you look at those countries in Europe, which are mostly Eastern Europe that have let`s say, less than 60 percent of the population, you see a big blip up just continuing to prove that vaccination is the answer.

HAYES: All right, Dr. Anthony Fauci, well, hopefully, I`m going to be getting that for my kids soon. Thank you for making some time tonight.

FAUCI: Good to be with you. Thank you for having me, Chris.

HAYES: Coming up, the case before the Supreme Court that could mean more guns on the streets of New York and everywhere else for that matter. The details of that case and what it could mean for you just ahead.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can leave freely but we will find you and we know who you are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You won`t be allowed in public again.


HAYES: It`s been a really big very noticeable rise in what I call anti- social behavior over the past 90 months during the pandemic basically since the start of the once-in-a-century pandemic. According to NBC News, more than 750,000 people have died of COVID in this country. There have been more than 46 million confirmed cases.

During the first few months of the Coronavirus pandemic, some 22 million U.S. workers lost their jobs. People have been forced to change everything about their life, their lifestyles, work, learn from home or work in dangerous environments, and fear getting the virus, and wear masks, and get brand new vaccines. And these are stressful times. And in the stressful times people have been sort of losing their minds.

We`ve seen it in lots of places in stores and schools and airplanes. Just about everywhere, people are forced to be near other people.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) It`s a hoax. I don`t have to wear a mask. We`re not going to wear a mask.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is America. I don`t have to do what you say. It`s 2020.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I`ll get real close to you and cough on you. How`s that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You gave me one warning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your wife came unmasked. You`re wife just came off unmasked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She came off unmasked because you guys are causing a scene. Turn around. Turn around. Face everybody, Frank. Face everybody, Frank. Go ahead. Turn around.


HAYES: That`s just a snapshot. You`ve probably seen a lot of these videos. It`s a real problem. I mean, incidents of unruly behavior on airplanes specifically alone have skyrocketed. In 2019, 146 investigations were initiated by the Federal Aviation Administration. The number so far this year is 950. That`s what the graph looks like. It`s six and a half times higher in the years and even over. Look at that spike.

But it`s not just people yelling or refusing to wear a mask in public. There`s been a real escalation of interpersonal violence in this country. According to NPR, the number of murders in the U.S. jumped by nearly 30 percent in 2020, compared with the previous year, and the largest single year increase ever recorded in the country.

Again, we just have the largest single year increase in murders ever recorded. So, the question for you. Would you think now is an ideal time to have more people carrying more guns in a country that really does seem like it`s processing a lot of trauma and is on very nerves.

That is exactly what the Supreme Court is considering right now, and the outcome could be truly terrifying. That`s next.



STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the biggest single Democratic vote-producing county in New Jersey. So, we know whatever comes in here, particularly given the exact precincts, we`re talking about here in Essex County, we know it`s going to be a big Murphy vote that still comes out of there.

The other thing we`ve been waiting on has been absentee vote, has been vote by mail. And the vote by mail just tends to be overwhelmingly Democratic. Some of these counties it has taken them an exceptionally long time to get that vote by mail counted up and reported out. One of the reasons for that in New Jersey, they did not allow the counties until midnight on election day to begin processing all of these mail ballots they received. So, there was a backlog there, it seems it took some extra time.

So, every reason to believe that the vote still to come in here in New Jersey is only going to help Murphy. But the final margin, wherever it lands here, I don`t think it`s going to be too much more than what you`re looking at right now. This is, as you said, this was the scare of Phil Murphy`s life here.

Certainly, the Murphy campaign, not even Republicans in New Jersey thought this thing was going to be that competitive. Biden wins by 16 a year ago. Maybe Murphy wins by a point and a half.

HAYES: And quickly, I think the story here -- I was running the numbers. Virginia was a high turnout election. Here you get Ciattarelli getting about 66 percent of Donald Trump`s vote total a year ago, and Murphy getting about 46 percent in raw numbers. So, just an enormous Democratic turnout drop off as one of the big stories here in this.

KORNACKI: Well, and I think also, Democratic drop off Republican enthusiasm because some of these areas, I mean, like Ocean County here, you had you know sky high enthusiasm here. It`s not just that Ciattarelli got 68 percent of the vote here, the raw number of votes that Ciattarelli got out here.


Chris Christie won this county. This was one of the big reasons Chris Christie got elected governor way back in 2009. Ciattarelli got more votes out of this county than Chris Christie did. When we saw this come in last night, we`re saying Holy Cow, Ciattarelli might have a chance here statewide. So, Republicans, and especially I think in -- you see in Ocean County, a couple of these other counties in South Jersey, that enthusiasm and that turnout was so high for Republicans, in fact, that the state senate president here, a Democrat, looks like he`s going to go down to defeat losing to a Republican candidate who spent the grand total of $161.00 on his campaign because of that Republican tide in some of these areas.

HAYES: All right, Steve Kornacki at the big board, thank you so much.

KORNACKI: You got it.

HAYES: That`s a big news out in New Jersey tonight. Turning now to what happened in Washington D.C. today. The Supreme Court heard arguments of other -- to keep New York State`s strict gun restrictions that required gun owners to obtain a special license to carry firearms outside the home.

It seems like a reasonable enough ask. If you want to carry a gun, you need a license. It`s kind of like driving a car. But the conservative majority on the court seems skeptical denying some people the ability to just walk around with a gun is constitutional. And with what we`ve seen in the increase in violence across the country, what could possibly go wrong with even more people armed?

Kris Brown is a president of the Brady -- of Brady, the National Campaign to prevent gun violence, and she joins me now. Chris, just to frame the constitutional question here, my understanding is, the court is considering whether to issue an opinion saying that the Second Amendment requires every state to just let anyone carry a gun that wants to whenever.

KRIS BROWN, PRESIDENT, BRADY: Yes. I mean, that`s basically correct, Chris. New York has had a permitting system for over a century that just says that we need to decide when someone wants to carry a gun in public in Times Square, whether or not they have a good reason to carry that gun.

And at issue in this case is that permitting system whether or not someone should have to state a strong reason because of a concern for their own safety to carry a gun in public anywhere at any time. And it`s not just New York, about a quarter of all of us here in America live in states with those kinds of permitting systems.

So, the scope of what`s before this court is really an interpretation of the Second Amendment that we`ve had since our very founding, actually, since before that. The idea of a government that was espoused by John Locke was whether or not we have a right to basic public safety. Whether we can walk down the street or go to the movies, or go to the public square, and not be afraid of violence.

And that`s why these permitting systems exist, Chris, and that`s why they work. They have worked. And they`re really important to protect and preserve our public safety. And let`s not forget that we had an insurrection on January 6. And against that backdrop, we didn`t have so many guns that were brought into the District of Colombia because of strong laws in D.C. and many other places.

This is not an esoteric argument. This is an argument that matters to every American and the stakes are really high with this case.

HAYES: Yes, in fact, we had multiple messages, text message, board traffic among folk going to that saying, leave your guns because D.C. is super strict. I mean, there`s real evidence of that.

You know, there`s a moment today in the arguments where Sam Alito, you know, made it seem like the subways of New York were -- would be you know, it was like from the film The Warriors or the Wild West and asked, well, wouldn`t people need to, you know, carry guns on the subway to defend themselves.

I have to say, as someone who just took the subway here that it was perfectly safe and happy to not have the whole subway car armed. But those conservative justices sound very, very sympathetic to this argument.

BROWN: You know how I felt about that, Chris, and I`m sure that they were referencing back to Bernie Goetz, vigilante justice, this notion that seemed to be undergirding some of the more conservative justices, that somehow in the Constitution, there is a right. And it`s not found in the Second Amendment. Is not found anywhere else for vigilante justice doesn`t exist. In fact, it`s quite the contrary.

So, it is alarming. I`m just hoping that in the end, people recognize that we have an epidemic of gun violence that the laws we have work, and that a well-regulated militia is completely separate and apart from our ability to protect ourselves and our kids in this country.

HAYES: Yes. Call me old-fashioned. I think the state should have a monopoly on legitimate use of violence but that`s just me. Kris Brown, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

That is ALL IN on this Wednesday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.