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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 1/28/2021

Guest: Jimmy Gomez, Rebecca Traister, Zerlina Maxwell, Aaron Davis, Chris Stirewalt, Leah Swanson, Michael Weber


Three weeks after the assault on the Capitol there`s still no consequences for Republicans who sided with the mob. Interview with Rep. Jimmy Gomez (D-CA) about his resolution to expel Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene from the House. Sen. Durbin reads the list of graphic injuries to Capitol Police into the Senate Record.


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Yes, no, absolutely. It`s definitely a lesson

learned. Taylor Lorenz, thank you so much for being here. I really

appreciate you. That is tonight`s REIDOUT. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts



CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, on ALL IN.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Kevin McCarthy answers to these QAnon

members of Congress, not the other way around.

HAYES: New warnings about the enemy inside Congress.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): We will probably need a supplemental for more

security for members when the enemy is within the House of Representatives.

Tonight, California Democrat Jimmy Gomez on his resolution to expel a QAnon

conspiracy theorist from Congress. Then, three weeks after the riot, what

we still don`t know about security inside the Capitol. Plus --

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: How can you call Arizona, but we can`t call


HAYES: He was fired from Fox News after his team called Arizona for Joe


CHRIS STIREWALT, FOX NEWS POLITICS EDITOR: If there were some way that it

looked like Donald Trump was going to be able to bring Arizona in, we

wouldn`t have called it.

HAYES: Former Fox News Politics Editor Chris Stirewalt on what he learned

after his firing. All that and the amazing story of a pop-up vaccination

drive in a traffic jam in the snow, when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. It has now

been three weeks since the January 6th attack on the Capitol, a day that

will live on in American history. People will study that day for decades

and probably centuries to come. And the majority of Republican members of

Congress, who again, voted on the side of that mob, voted to overturn a

free and fair democratic election to install the loser over the winner

against the will of the people -- the majority of Republicans, the ones who

have done that they have done nothing to get back on the right side of the

boundary they all cross that day.

On January 6th, with their votes, those members moved from what might be

called the politics of a loyal opposition into something altogether

different and far more dangerous. Today, Speaker Nancy Pelosi described the

terrifying situation the members of Congress now find themselves in.


PELOSI: I do believe, and I have said this all along that we will probably

need a supplemental for more security for members when the enemy is within

the House of Representatives. It shouldn`t be that not only is the

President of the United States inciting an insurrection, but keeps fanning

the flame endangering the security of members of Congress, to the point

that they`re even concerned about members in the House of Representatives

being a danger to them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What exactly did you mean when you said that the enemy

is within? What exactly do you mean by that?

PELOSI: It means that we have members of Congress who want to bring guns on

the floor and have threatened violence on other members of Congress.


HAYES: Keep in mind, this speaker is talking about people like freshmen

Republican Lauren Boebert of Colorado who tweeted about carrying her Glock

to Congress and called the day of the attack before it actually happened,

right. That when she knew it was planned, she said today is 1776. 1776 is,

of course, a year of violent revolution somewhat famously so. They didn`t

go in like petition their government, right? They fought them with guns.

And Paul Gosar of Arizona who also tweeted on January 6th, "Biden should

concede. I want his concession on my desk tomorrow" And then with an image

of the crowd, "Don`t make me come over there."

These people have shown no compunction, no regret in the aftermath, no

shame. And then there is their colleague, Marjorie Taylor Greene, a

freshman lawmaker from Georgia, who`s been the focus of much more sustained

attention. Now, Greene is on the record endorsing violence against Speaker

Nancy Pelosi. This is a Facebook comment Greene liked from January 2019,

suggesting "A bullet to the head would be quicker to remove Pelosi." Thumbs


That`s just one of a long list of violent, racist, and crazy things

Marjorie Taylor Greene has said, including suggesting Muslims should not be

able to serve in public office itself a direct contradiction of the plain

text of the Constitution she so claims to love, and that Black people are

"held slaves to the Democratic Party."

She`s on video harassing David Hogg, a survivor of the Parkland shooting --

school shooting, claiming -- this is key -- that the tragedy was a false

flag. It didn`t really happen. It was fake or planted. This was a big

conspiracy theory on the right for a while.

She`s also trafficking several other insane far-right conspiracy theories

like this one, which I had to study about. I hadn`t really encountered it.

But it`s the one about how Hillary Clinton satanically murders babies. And

then there`s another about a California wildfire being started by a laser

beam and then-Governor Jerry Brown and the Rothschilds were involved. Yes,

Jewish space laser beams starting the forest fire.

And the best response the leader of the House Republican Caucus, Kevin

McCarthy, can come up with to all that is that they`ll have a talk with

her. Like, oh, tell me more about the laser beam. Where was that -- how did

that work?

Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who has been the subject of death

threats, there`s a man arrested who posted assassinate AOC, who had stormed

the Capitol, since the attack on the Capitol, tour on the Leader McCarthy

on this show last night, saying he`s basically afraid of Marjorie Taylor



OCASIO-CORTEZ: It increasingly seems, unfortunately, that in the House

Republican Caucus, Kevin McCarthy answers to these QAnon members of

Congress, not the other way around. And that is something that frankly

needs to be said. You know, he said he was going to pull Representative

Marjorie Taylor Greene aside.

And so, when I hear that Representative McCarthy is going to pull a member

aside who has made white supremacists sympathizing comments, the thing that

I think is, what is he going to tell them, keep it up? Because there are no

consequences in the Republican Caucus for violence. There`s no consequences

for racism, no consequences for misogyny, no consequences for insurrection.

And no consequences mean that they condone it. It means that silence is

acceptance. And they want it because they know that it is a core animating

political energy for them.


HAYES: Kevin McCarthy doesn`t care what Marjorie Keller Greene says or

believes. He sees, and this is the hard part probably rightly, that there

is political power, energy, as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said, to be gained

from it.

Now, today, Kevin McCarthy even made a deeply humiliating, almost too awful

to watch pilgrimage down to Mar-a-Lago to kiss the ring of the twice

impeached, possibly assumed to be indicted ex-president. Because there`s no

line crossed that goes too far for him or for them or for the party.

This is where we are, folks. This is what everyone has to acknowledge.

There will be no self-regulation, no self-governance. No "did we go too

far?" No mea culpas, there will be no growth. This is what the contemporary

Republican Party and conservative movement right now is.

And so, now, the question becomes like, what do you do with that when there

are people like that, that are part of the government of this country who

believe what they believe? Congressman Jimmy Gomez of California has a

proposal to expel his colleague Marjorie Taylor Greene from the House, and

he joins me now.

Congressman, obviously, this is an extremely rarely used step. Why do you

want to do it and under what power do you think there is to do it?

REP. JIMMY GOMEZ (D-CA): The House has its own ability to seat and expel

any member that it chooses. It takes two-thirds vote to do it. But I wanted

to say that this is a serious moment. Margie Taylor Greene, a conspiracy

theorist, believes in all sorts of crazy things. But she -- the worst thing

is that she`s incited crowds in the past to storm the Capitol, to go after

Nancy Pelosi. They were even chanting hang Mike Pence. And now she`s still

a member of Congress.

So, I believe she is a clear and present danger to the members of the House

of Representatives, just simply for the fact she also was able to bring a

gun to the House office buildings, and she`s walked around the metal

detectors going to the floor. There`s a -- there`s a strong sense that

there -- something worse than September -- January 6th could happen if she

continues in office.

HAYES: Can I -- I just want to press you on this. Is this a real concern or

is this a rhetorical concern? Like, what you are -- what you are implying

is that you are scared that Marjorie Taylor Greene might shoot someone at

the Capitol. Is that -- I mean, is that what you are saying?

GOMEZ: When members are buying bulletproof vests, and getting fitted which

-- across the Democratic Caucus, when people are looking at new security

measures for their homes, including myself, yes, this is serious. People

are deeply concerned.

If she said, OK, I`m not going to bring my gun to the floor. We`re not

going to bring it to the House. Yes, people would feel better. But that

doesn`t mean that she can`t incite somebody.

HAYES: Here`s -- so, there`s a constitutional issue here and I`d like to

get your response to it. You know, there`s kind of an ignominious history

to this. You know, quite famously, the Georgia legislature tried to not

seat Julian Bond back in the days of civil rights movement when he was

elected for his opposition to Vietnam War. There was efforts to not seat

Adam Clayton Powell, that were also ultimately were not allowed.

I mean, it`s a free country. We got the First Amendment freedom of

conscience. People can believe crazy stuff. Are you worried about how you

draw the line here or what precedent you set?

GOMEZ: We`re taking a very -- we`re taking a scalpel when it comes to the

resolution that we`re putting forward to the -- on to the floor. We`re

going to be very careful on what -- why we`re saying -- we`re asking her to

be expelled. I believe it`s because of political -- the violence she

instigated on January 6th, the direct threats to other members lives that

she`s done on social media.

And I know it`s not been during her time in office, but I`m scared that

something is going to happen to another member, and we`ll be attending

somebody`s funeral in the near future.

HAYES: Look, I agree -- I mean, the resolution, I understand the case for

it. But it just seems to me there`s a deeper issue here, which is like this

is not a tenable legislating situation.


HAYES: I mean, you know, the enemy within, we`re getting fitted for bullet

for vests, I don`t want to bring her gun. Like, you`re all in the same

legislature. This can`t -- this can`t go on like this. Something has to

happen to make this tenable.

GOMEZ: And that`s the Republican leadership taking responsibility for the

members that are within their ranks and checking them, putting them in

their place, and asking them to not bring their guns, taking a hard step

against them. You know, McCarthy is going to -- is going to, you know,

speak to her. That`s just BS. He`s not going to speak to her. And if he

does, what is he going to actually tell her?

He attacked me when I got -- first got sworn in in 2017 because I took too

long getting to Congress. He was saying that I shouldn`t be seated for

taking too long to get in Congress. But when it comes to political

violence, when it comes to conspiracy theories, when it comes to attacking

the institution of our democracy, then I`m just going to pull her aside.

And just -- he needs to step up and control his caucus.

HAYES: Final question for you. You know, it`s been striking to me that

there has been no -- zero, as far as I can tell, any kind of mea culpa

apology. Like, you can imagine a universe in which Marjorie Taylor Greene

responds to that reporting that shows the Facebook like that says, that was

a terrible thing to do to thumbs up a post about putting a bullet between

the eyes of the speaker. I am deeply sorry, I did it. I did it by accident,

or I regret doing it, or whatever you want to say. But there -- am I wrong?

There just hasn`t been that. There hasn`t been anyone saying anything like,

I`m sorry.

GOMEZ: Yes. She has it because she -- we have to assume she still believes

it, right? It`s hard to go against and apologize something that you still

deep in your heart believe in. And I do believe that she believes in all

the conspiracies that she`s been perpetrating. The fact that the election

was stolen from Donald Trump, the fact that q naught q anon conspiracy

theories that there`s pedophiles in the Democratic Party, the fact that

Parkland and the other mass shootings were staged.


GOMEZ: All that, I do believe she deeply believed. And that`s what`s

troubling. If you can`t have just a basis of fact, how are you ever going

to have any kind of political discourse in this country?

HAYES: All right, Congressman Jimmy Gomez, thank you so much for explaining

where you`re coming from tonight. I really appreciate it.

GOMEZ: Thank you so much.

HAYES: I want to now bring in Zerlina Maxwell, hosts of the new shows

Zerlina on Peacock`s news, The Choice, and Rebecca Traister, writer at

large for New York Magazine. There -- so, when I talked about the un-

tenability of the current situation, I thought this tweet between -- this

exchange between AOC and Ted Cruz today kind of summed it up, right?

There`s this kind of left, right populist momentum against Robinhood, the

trading app that cut off the traders that were, you know, mucking around

with these Wall Street bigwigs, right. And AOC talks about it, and Ted Cruz

says, I agree with this, right? Like a nice moment of left, right unity.

And then, AOC says, "I`m happy to work with Republicans on this issue where

there`s common ground, but you almost had me murdered three weeks ago, so

you can sit this one out. I`m happy to work with almost any other GOP that

aren`t trying to get me killed. In the meantime, if you want to help, you

can resign."

It`s like -- I just, Rebecca, appreciated Congresswoman Cortez -- Ocasio-

Cortez making the subtext of text. But this is not a way that any

democratic legislative body can function.


that I think we have to reckon with, and the Democrats have to reckon with,

and I think that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is going further in this

reckoning than a lot of other people have yet is that this is not a problem

that began or is going to end with Marjorie Taylor Greene or even just with

Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley or Lauren Boebert. This has been happening, you

know, stipulating that the politics of white supremacist resentment and

violent misogyny and delegitimization exists -- extend decades into the

Republican Party`s past.

You could see this building this exact set of violent antagonism toward

democracy itself, toward the United States and its institutions, building

during the presidency of Barack Obama. You saw these exact patterns,

conspiracy theory theories delegitimizing his presidency, people yelling at

him, you lie, accusing the president of dishonesty, treating him as


You could see it in the summer of 2016 when you had a New Hampshire

lawmaker calling for Hillary Clinton to be taken out on a firing line and

shot for treason. He did that three times in public, a New Hampshire state

politician who is a Donald Trump delegate. You also saw Trump himself

threatening to imprison Hillary Clinton.

I mean, absolute violations and an antagonism toward the United States and

its institutions and its electoral practices building and building. The

Republican Party has had a long time to decide what to do with this. With

Trump, after a little performative window dressing, we don`t like him, they

accepted him. And that open antagonism toward the United States and its

electoral processes and toward democracy entered the White House.

We now see it has come into, you know, the House with some of these

individuals and with Hawley and Cruz in the Senate, but it`s not about the

individuals anymore. The party has welcomed them in. It is appointing them

to committees. It is -- what Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said to you last

night was so powerful that McCarthy is not in control of his caucus. And I

would argue neither is Mitch McConnell at this point, either, when he

turned from chastising Trump, to made the turn this past week, to no, no,

no, we`re not going to do this.

These men are being led by this faction of their party. The party has

embraced this. So, how do you treat an entire political party that is

working antagonistically, aggressively, and violently against the United


HAYES: Yes. And Zerlina, you know, I said this. I raise this to

Representative Gomez. The total absence -- I mean, it`s not just like --

it`s not just there`s no apologies or second thoughts, it`s full speed

ahead, right? So, there was this moment the other day where the Hawaii

State GOP, you know, tweeted, like, hey, check out a video from this guy

who then was a holocaust denier. You can like, pull up his YouTube, and

it`s like, oh, the showers in Auschwitz are really showers. It`s like,

whoa, OK, what`s going on here.

And then, the Hawaii GOP put out this statement. I accept full

responsibility for the unauthorized tweets posted by our former vice-chair

of communications. He`s resigned. Our party believes in his free speech,

but it`s a responsibility each of us must carry in order to maintain a good

and justice society. Promoting content for the purpose of shock value does

not help us build a more perfect union. To our friends and Jewish

community, we find the contents to be deeply disturbing and offensive. It

had no place in our party, much less our country.

Now, it`s not perfect but it`s something. That`s the only one of those you

can find. That`s it. That`s what you got.


MCINTOSH: I think that AOC hit on something last night which is really the

point here. They`re not apologizing because they`re not sorry.


MAXWELL: They agree with some of these positions, not the far the most

crazy of the conspiracy theories. But certainly, after the 2012 election

when the Republican Party did an autopsy, which said the racism is hurting

you because the emerging -- the emerging demographics of a majority

coalition of people of color is coming down the pike. And the Republican

Party decided to double down on the racism.

In many ways, I think that, you know, what you`ve seen in the past couple

of weeks since the election was certified, is them react similarly to the -

- to the way that they did in 2012 to the autopsy. They double down on the

racism and they restrict the votes of people who are less likely to vote

for them.

And so, that`s basically the strategy here, Chris. And I think that the

problem is that it`s not really a political strategy. They`re not engaged

in this project of democracy that the rest of us are participating in

because they don`t actually want voters to make decisions and elect people.

And even in the case of Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think, you know, if she

was your child`s teacher, I do not think that she would still be employed.

I`m having posted these things publicly and said these things publicly. And

so, it`s awfully concerning that she has a position of immense power in the

House of Representatives, just you know, having the -- held these views and

express them publicly.

HAYES: To Zerlina`s point, this article in The Guardian today, Republicans

considering more than 100 bills to restrict voting rights, currently 106

pending bills across 28 states that would restrict access to voting. We

slide from the Rothschild lasers, right, and that, and the fraudulent

election to, of course, the natural attempts to curtail voting. This is all

sort of appease. Zerlina Maxwell and Rebecca Traister, thank you both.

Tonight, three weeks of silence from Capitol Police, still no public

accounting of what happened on January 6th. Investigative Journalist Aaron

Davis has been trying to get to the bottom of it and he joins me next.


HAYES: In the wake of the deadly attack three weeks ago, there are big

questions about why it is we are only getting piecemeal information about

the human toll from that violence, including the toll it has taken on

police officer there to protect the Capitol that day.

Earlier this week, acting chief of the U.S. Capitol Police Yogi Pittman

testified behind closed doors before Appropriations, and apologized to

lawmakers for failings that helped lead riot. We still haven`t had a public

press conference from Capitol Police.

This morning, the head of the Capitol Police Union put out a statement on

injuries sustained by officers. This morning on the Senate floor, Senator

Dick Durbin of Illinois read it into the record.


SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I have officers who were not issued helmets prior

to the attack and who have sustained brain injuries. One officer had two

crack ribs, two had smashed spinal disc. One officer is going to lose his

eye, another was stabbed with a metal fence steak. He said one officer died

of injuries sustained on January 6th and two officers have since taken

their own lives.

I want to put that in the record because in a week with the beginning of

the impeachment trial, we`re going to reflect again on what happened

January 6th. Some of my colleagues and many people on their side are

saying, we shouldn`t spend time talking about what happened January 6th.

In the words of former governor of South Carolina Nikki Haley, we ought to

get over it. Get over it. It`s hard to get over it when you consider the

facts that I just read into the record.


HAYES: Aaron Davis is an investigative reporter who`s been covering the

aftermath of the attack for The Washington Post and he joins me now. I

should note, that Capitol Police union statement was put out yesterday. It

was read into the record today by Senator Dick Durbin.

Let me ask you this. Did you know the stats and information in that

statement before that statement was issued, or was that the first you`re



stats where the first time even we were hearing it. You know, we`d heard

obviously, dozens, even scores of officers have been hurt. But you hear for

the first time the full magnitude. And on federal court documents, it has

been listed as some 80 officers. Now, you have the Capitol Police saying

140 officers were injured. And these are not just simple injuries.

Obviously, several were sprayed with air spray and mace and things like

that. But we`re talking about crushed vertebrae. We`re talking about an

officer who appears to be -- is going to lose an eye, officers who were

kicked and pushed down flights of stairs, crushed. We`ve all seen some of

the horrible video of them being crushed in doorways and other places just


So, yes, there`s a huge distrust now among the rank and file and Capitol

Police about, you know, just how forthcoming the leadership of Capitol

Police has been with the public. And obviously, we still have lots of

questions both for Capitol Police. But everyone beyond Capitol Police, not

only the -- there`s a picture emerging of not just acute failures within

that department, but broadly, the inability of the U.S. Intelligence

Community to look inward and to see this threat coming before January 6th.

HAYES: I want to go back a few sentences. When you said sort of rank and

file towards your leadership. Obviously, this is the Capitol Police Union.

And I should say, having covered police and police-involved shootings, that

you know, you can`t take a police union statement at face value. It doesn`t

-- it`s not necessarily true. You have to confirm it.

But what`s striking about this statement is that it`s all we have for any

kind of comprehensive anything from the Capitol Police. Like, when you say

that the rank and file is distrustful, the leadership, say more about what

that -- what that it`s about.

DAVIS: Well, obviously, how the chief who had been in control on the day of

the siege has resigned. You have now an acting chief. They`ve begun to

issue press releases and they gave a briefing to lawmakers this week. But

it was behind closed doors. You know, obviously, as a journalist, I`m not

pleased with the lawmakers on that score either.

But we do know from statements and some of the documents we`ve received

from inside that closed-door meeting that the chief -- the new acting

chief, Chief Pittman, began to give us a partial explanation for why things

happened that day the way they did, and all the pictures that we all saw.

And that was that they did have intelligence that this was going to be

violent, but they did not act on it. They did not take it seriously.

And because of that, officers were not issued rubber bullets or other non-

lethal force, even, you know, their own pepper spray. Some didn`t even have

a baton, some didn`t have helmets. And so, you were dealing with a force

that was just had -- was outmatched. They didn`t have the weapons that the

crowd that they were facing off would even have.

HAYES: The point that you say there about the briefing, this is something I

just keep coming back to because it`s so weird. I mean, you know, I`ve

covered a lot of awful events. You know, the shooting in Las Vegas, Orlando

Pulse nightclub, Parkland, right? Usually, that night or earlier, some law

enforcement official comes out and says, here`s what happened. We have

these many officers hospitalized. These many officers discharged their

weapons, these many are injured, these many have lost their life. I just --

I don`t understand how we don`t know those things about the attack on the

U.S. Capitol three weeks ago.

DAVIS: It`s still is stunning, really. I mean, it was left to the mayor of

D.C. to issue a statement that night who has not anything to do with the

federal government to say the Capitol has been secure, the lawmakers are

going back. And there was never a press release. There was never a public

statement. There was never -- you`re right. That moment in front of the

camera, we begin to get the download of what happened, what they saw when

they entered the building.

And I think part of this we`re beginning to understand goes to this

incredibly obscure oversight structure that the Capitol Police have within

the federal government. And that is that they only really had two bosses.

You`re talking about a force of 2,000 officers, bigger than most U.S.

cities, and the answer to the House Sergeant at Arms, and the Senate

Sergeant at Arms.

And those two really had no boss other than the Speaker of the House and

the Majority Leader in the Senate. And they were always -- seems like

focusing and trying to understand what those politicians wanted, what

images they wanted. They`ve more or less said as much. And so, now, we`re

left with a situation where there`s really no accountability there for that

department heading into this.

HAYES: All right, Aaron Davis who`s been doing great reporting on this,

thank you so much for making time with us tonight.

DAVIS: Thank you.

HAYES: Next, I`ll talk to the man fired from Fox News after he called

Arizona for Joe Biden on election night. What he says he learned, after



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is this happening here? Why is Arizona blue? Did we

just call it? Did we make a call in Arizona? Oh, let`s see. There`s a

checkmark. Did our decision desk make it, Arizona, 11 electoral votes?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, if that`s the case, then, guys, when we come back,

we`ll fill this in.


HAYES: In some ways, that moment on election night, when Fox News called

Arizona for Joe Biden hours before any other network, that was the moment

when it really became possible the Trump presidency was over. A multiple

outlets reported that after Fox called Arizona, Trump went ballistic

because the New York Times pointed out, "If it was true, Arizona was lost,

it could call into doubt on any claim of victory the President might be

able to make."

Chris Stirewalt was responsible for making that call as former politics

editor for Fox News. He was fired last week the day before Joe Biden was

sworn into office. Today, wrote an op-ed for the L.A. Times where he

describes becoming "a target of murderous rage from consumers who were

furious at not having their views confirmed." And he joins me now for his

first television interview since leaving Fox News.

Chris, it`s great to have you on the program. Thank you very much. Take me

through that night and what it was like in terms of A, making the call, and

then what happened afterwards?

STIREWALT: Well, first and foremost, I am not responsible. An awesome team

of fabulous nerds led by my old boss, Bill Sammon, just the best human I

know perhaps, and Arnon Mishkin, (INAUDIBLE), and this fabulous squad of

guys who came together to beat everybody, because that`s what we enjoy

doing really a great deal was being the best at this.

And for our sake, for what we did, that was just -- that was par for the

course. It was long after any calls were made that I had any idea that this

was a huge deal or that people were freaking out or all that stuff. It`s

just what we do. It`s just kind of -- it`s making the donuts, right.

HAYES: So, on the night you made -- the decision desk makes the call, and

there`s some pushback from some folks on the network. But you had no sense

that you guys had like stumbled into something apocalypse -- with

apocalyptic ripples.

STIREWALT: I would not understand the magnitude of the anger on the

populace right about this for some time. And I wouldn`t really understand

it until we saw what was happening. Because remember, Fox makes the call,

the decision desk calls the -- calls Arizona for Biden, and then nothing

happens for days, as the slowpokes in the upper Midwest in Pennsylvania are

counting, counting, counting, counting, counting. So, there would have been

no calls that whole week.

And that made the Associated Press and Fox -- AP was there too -- that AP

and Fox had called Arizona. And if not for that, there would have been no

other calls any other place. That was effective in defeating Trump`s

attempt to disrupt the election, to steal an election because yes, it was -

- the narrative was broken. That is true.

But it`s also true that we were kind of out there by ourselves. And through

that process, we became a focus of all of this rage, all of this anger. And

it was really -- I don`t want to say scary. Scary is not the right thing

because there were times in 2016 it was scary, and all of that stuff. But

the credulity with which consumers were greeting the President`s claims

that the election had been stolen, but he was trying to steal an election

by saying the election was stolen. The credulity of people this surprised

me. And it woke me up to some pretty unhappy facts about the way our

industry works.

HAYES: Well, the cruelty you`re saying of Fox News consumers for believing

things that are not true surprised you?

STIREWALT: What surprised me was the number of people who whether it was

watching Fox or whether they were watching OANN or watching other networks

or whatever they were doing, but the number of people who greeted these

claims credulously. And what that told me was that a lot of people have

grown accustomed to being flattered by their news outlets.

They had grown accustomed to being affirmed. And that when something came

along that disagreed with their point of view, it wasn`t just that they

didn`t like it or they turned off the, but for the same kinds of folks who

gathered on the National Mall on January 6th, for those folks, it was not

just a matter that they didn`t -- that they were unhappy with it or

disagreed with it, it was a matter of real anger. And that spoke to me

about the depth of the problem.

HAYES: What is your understanding of the enterprise that you`re a part of

that you`re no longer part of? I understand that as the terms of that

departure, that you`re not going to talk about those specific conditions.

But what does it say to you about what this enterprise, one of the most

powerful media enterprises ever created -- I think, arguably one of the

most powerful in modern America, the role it plays in what it does?

STIREWALT: Well, here`s something I learned. I was a newspaper guy before I

was in cable. And what I learned along the way, you know, if you have

people who, for centuries, struggled to get enough information, they

struggled to know enough stuff so that they could get through their lives,

there was a morning paper, there was an afternoon paper, maybe you catch

them on the radio, then there`s the evening news. 24 hours is not the

correct increment in which people should consume news, right?

It`s great -- it`s great to dip in. It`s great to get some news. But that

is not the optimal increment of news consumption is 24 hours. And when the

industry started with Ted Turner back in the day, the idea was, we`ll be

here. I don`t know if anybody will want to watch it, but we`re going to be

here. It`s not just cable news, it is everybody who is working in an

advertiser-based system which is they have -- they have the power now to

chase viewers and clicks where they are.

HAYES: All of this is a formal critique is -- has merit, right? So, people

chasing clicks or chasing ratings, people not wanting to things that don`t

confirm their priors. That`s all true, right? But the deeper problem is

that your network, the President, was feeding people substantive lies,

incredibly important material lies about the world. Not like the Dems are

bad or that we don`t like him. They were lying. They were giving them

mistruths about the state of the world. That`s a substantive problem with

what was being pumped out, not a formal question of the 24-hour news cycle.

STIREWALT: Well, I hear you. But I would also remind you, that for me,

that`s not what I was doing. I wasn`t pumping out mistruths. And my boss,

you raise whatever eyebrow you want to raise, I wasn`t --

HAYES: No, I`m not -- my eyebrows is at the network -- the network you

worked for was. I mean --

STIREWALT: Look, I -- here`s what I know. Every day that I worked at Fox

News. I did and said what I wanted to do and say.

HAYES: Right.

STIREWALT: Everything I wrote -- by the way, a lot of people say, oh, that

was a great piece you wrote in the LA Times. That`s fantastic. If they

would have looked, I was writing the same stuff when I was at Fox. The

problem -- the problem here is a business model that forces providers, OK,

it forces providers to meet the needs. If you`re going to narrowcast, you

can`t upset the people who are coming to be served.

HAYES: Totally. I just -- I just want to -- because I`m a practitioner as

you were, right? I just want to make this final sort of distinction and we

can leave it there, which is just that it`s true like the things you`re

saying about this medium and other mediums in this moment, right, this

narrowcasting, the sort of push and pull of consumers is true.

But there are lines, and there are lines of integrity and honesty, right?

And I patrol those lines. They`re really important to me. Like, I get up

every day and I do this job and I talk to people like you and I talking to

-- and I don`t lie to them because it`s important to me not to lie to them,



HAYES: There are people on the network you`ve worked for that are lying to

people. And it`s really bad for the country. I don`t know any other way to

say it, but that`s just where we are.

STIREWALT: Lying is -- lying to people is a bad thing to do. I didn`t lie.

Like you, I patrolled those boundaries, and that`s not what I participate


HAYES: Well, I am glad that you have been liberated from a place where

people do lie and I wish you well, genuinely, in writing in places where

you can do good work, Chris Stirewalt. Thank you so much for your time



HAYES: Still to come, what happened when a group of healthcare workers got

stranded on a snowy highway and had a few vaccine doses to spare? That

amazing story ahead.


HAYES: If you`ve ever planned a wedding or any kind of big catered event,

you know that no matter how meticulously you plan, there`s always a little

bit of a mismatch between the number of people you invited and how many end

up being able to show up. But since you`re paying the caterer regardless,

all you care about is getting someone into those empty seats. That`s the

wonderful reason for the institution of the wedding invite list.

Now, the United States finds itself in a similar situation when it comes to

vaccines. Because the two vaccines we have from Moderna and Pfizer need

constant cold storage. Then they need to be thought to be administered and

then they cannot be refrozen. So, if you take out 100 doses expecting to

vaccinate 100 people, but by the end of the day only 80 people have shown

up, there is no putting those 20 doses back in the fridge. You have to find

a way to use them or lose them and fast.

There are a bunch of really creative ways people are making sure those

doses don`t go to waste. For example, out in Los Angeles, people known as

vaccine chasers are finding unofficial standby lines of mass vaccination

clinics. LA Times reports by the end of each day, at least 20 or 30 people

who didn`t have appointments are managing to get those leftover doses.

And in Oregon, a bunch of lucky people just got vaccinated simply by

getting caught in the right snowstorm at the right time. That incredible

story and the healthcare worker responsible for it are next. Don`t go



HAYES: We`ve been hearing these anecdotal stories from across the country

about some very lucky people who are not scheduled to get the vaccine but

they happen to be seen hanging around a pharmacy at the end of the day when

the pharmacist had some extra doses that were set to expire. So, they were

asked, hey, do you want to get vaccinated?

The most remarkable story referred along those lines happened along a snowy

highway in rural Southwest Oregon two days ago. Staff and volunteers from

the Josephine County Public Health Department have been vaccinating

Oregonians at a high school that day. But there was a big winter storm

coming and so they were forced to close the clinic early and get on the


Health care workers started heading back to their headquarters in the city

of Grants Pass to administer the remaining doses but the storm had moved in

and a tractor-trailer jackknifed ahead of them, and they ended up stranded

on the highway with a bunch of other cars. And they still had in their

possession six more doses of the Moderna vaccine.

Those precious doses were going to expire in that car, and the healthcare

workers were stranded. But they were not going to let the doses go to

waste. Here to tell us what happened next are two of the healthcare workers

who were on that snowy highway, Leah Swanson, the Josephine County Public

Health Emergency Preparedness Coordinator and Michael Weber, the Josephine

county Director of Public Health.

First of all, great work, you guys. It`s great to have you on the program.

Leah, maybe you could just tell us. You`re in the car, and you`re stuck.

What do you -- what do you guys start talking about and thinking through?


COUNTY: Well, we`ve been stuck about 40 minutes, and Mike called me and

said, I think we`re just going to have to start administering those

leftover doses. We had six of them left. So, let`s just start walking up

and down and asking cars if people are interested in getting a vaccine.

HAYES: Mike, did you have -- when I was reading this story, which was sort

of like -- it was like an anxiety dream of a thing I`d never even thought

to have an anxiety dream about. But when I was reading it, I was thinking

myself, like, is there a clock ticking in the back of your head when you`re

driving with a bunch of, you know, unused vaccine doses?


You know, we had somewhere between three and four hours at that point.

We`re being told the wait time was likely going to be at least two hours.

And then we still had the drive down through winter weather, it was just

cutting it too close. So, the decision, honestly, was pretty obvious for

all of us.

HAYES: OK. So, then you`re like, we got -- we got to use it. You got six

doses. Mike, you start knocking on windows of other cars that are stranded

behind this jackknifed tractor-trailer. Is that right?

WEBER: Well, I mean, before that we actually -- it wasn`t just us, right?

There were the five public health staff that you see there. But all told,

there was about 20 people from the vaccine clinic that were stuck on that

mountain with us, including physicians. We had AMR ambulance parked with us

that had -- that was stocked to support our clinic needs.

So, it wasn`t completely unsupported. So, I did go to the physician and

say, hey, can I get you to sign off from a safety perspective? Are you

comfortable with this? And he said, with what we have on hand, absolutely.

HAYES: I guess that explains part of the mystery to me, which is, Leah -- I

mean, I just imagine, like if someone -- if someone came up to my car with

a syringe and was like, you want -- you want a shot? You want a vaccine

shot? I would -- I would maybe -- maybe I`m just too much of a New Yorker

but like, is this a scam I`ve never encountered before? How did -- how do

people react?

SWANSON: Yes, we were really surprised only one person that we vaccinated

asked for ID and they got a picture of the ID with Dr. Candelaria holding

the ID. Otherwise, people didn`t question us. They were like, OK, this

county public health and they`re going to give me a vaccine. It was pretty


HAYES: So, people -- so people -- what was the pitch? What were you saying

to them?

SWANSON: Well, we were trying to explain that we`ve been at the mass

vaccination event at the Illinois Valley High School, and then we just had

a few vaccines leftover. And since we were all stuck, we were giving them

out and we were hoping that they might be interested in taking one. And

some people were so excited -- both spectrums, and some people were like no

go to the next car. I`m not interested.

HAYES: So, Mike, there were people -- there were people that -- I mean,

after I think I got -- I would get over my initial skepticism that it is

some sort of scam, I think I would feel like I won the lottery. Were there

people who were just like, this is -- today is my lucky day.

WEBER: Oh, yes. One of our favorite stories was a gentleman who the person

that was in the car with him had already been vaccinated. And he had just

accepted that he wasn`t going to be anytime soon. He was months away.

And he got -- at first he was asking me, are you serious? Are you -- are

you kidding me? Is this a joke? And it took me a while to convince him that

we were actually serious and we had a shot waiting for him. And he started

doing a happy dance in the seat of his car.

And when Dr. Candelaria walked up to help him fill out the paperwork, he

took his shirt off and jumped out of the car shirtless in the snowstorm

waiting. He was so excited.

HAYES: Put it -- literally put it in my vein. So, there -- so, this is a

bureaucratic question or important one, Leah. There was paperwork, right?

Like, this -- my first thought also while reading the story was like, are

they going to track these people? Are they going to be able to get a second

shot? Do they -- like, you guys had some paperwork for them?

SWANSON: Yes. It was very fortuitous that of all the cars that we had

stranded there together, we had the exact supplies we needed to be

administering the vaccine, including all of the needed paperwork. So,

people were able to fill it out, our doctor was able to review it. We are

going to have to send them their CDC vaccination cards afterwards. But we

were able to enter their information in the system. We had everything we


HAYES: So, you know where these people are. You know who they are. You have

-- you can send them the vaccination cards, and then you can make sure that

they get another shot.

SWANSON: Yes, absolutely. Yes. We collected all their information.

HAYES: Mike, how is it going more broadly there? I mean, we`ve -- you know,

there`s lots of stories of folks being resistant to vaccines in different

places. You`ve got this really important -- basically you and the folks you

work with, Leah and Mike, you`re doing the most important work in this

country right now. How is it going?

WEBER: Well, some friends really well and have some friends not so much. We

really struggled to get the amount of vaccine we need. Prior to our mass

vaccination event, we only had 300 doses given to public health total. And

that, you know, as of two weeks ago. So, this last mass vaccination event,

we did over 3,000. That was our first one and it was our big kickoff and it

was fantastic.

But we still have that such a low quantity of dosage that the idea of

losing even one is just -- is not acceptable. It is simply won`t happen.

So, on the other side of it, we do live in a part of the country that is --

has a strong vaccine hesitancy. So, it`s just something that we have to

stand with.

HAYES: Michael Weber, Leah Swanson, thank you for the work you`re doing.

Thank you for being so quick on your feet and thank you so much for telling

your story tonight. I really -- I loved it. Thank you.

WEBER: Thank you for having us.

SWANSON: Thank you.

HAYES: That is ALL IN on this Thursday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW"

starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.




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