IE 11 is not supported. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser.

Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 1/25/21

Guest: Jamie Raskin, Jane Mayer, Jennifer Horn, Olivia Troye, Heather Boushey


The second impeachment of Donald Trump is now formally in the hands of the U.S. Senate. The GOP is still denying responsibility for the Capitol riots. After Trump left the White House, Americans are now learning the scope of his failure in protecting the country from the coronavirus. President Biden today signed an order reversing the ban on transgender individuals from serving the U.S. military


JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: This is a day when we are seeing history made over and over and over again. Don`t go anywhere. "ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice over): Tonight on ALL IN.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): His act on the sixth was the most despicable thing any president has ever done. And he is the worst president ever. And you cannot just let`s move on. You`ve got to look back.

HAYES: 19 days after the Capitol was ransacked, articles of impeachment are brought from the House to the Senate.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Donald John Trump engaged in high crimes and misdemeanors by inciting violence against the government of the United States.

HAYES: Tonight, new evidence on how bad the threat was and is and my exclusive interview with Congressman Jamie Raskin, the man who will lead the prosecution during the second trial of Donald J. Trump.

Then, how conspiracy theorists are taking over state Republican parties as multiple networks confirm Rudy Giuliani is being sued for election lies.

RUDY GIULIANI, LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: Oh, my goodness, all the networks. Wow.

HAYES: And how the word unity is being weaponized to try to block a wildly popular COVID rescue bill, when ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. The second impeachment of Donald Trump is now formally in the hands of the U.S. Senate. As the first president to be impeached twice also becomes the first ex-president to face an impeachment trial. This was the scene moments ago as the House impeachment managers walked over to the Senate with the single article of impeachment, charging Donald Trump with incitement of insurrection for his role in the January 6th assault on the Capitol.


JENNIFER HEMINGWAY, ACTING SENATE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Hear ye, hear ye, hear ye. All persons are commanded to keep silent on pain of imprisonment while the House of Representatives is exhibiting to the Senate of the United States an article of impeachment against Donald John Trump.

RASKIN: -- resolve that Donald John Trump, President of the United States is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors and that the following article of impeachment be exhibited to the United States Senate. In his conduct while President of the United States and in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the Office of the President of the United States, and to the best of his ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, Donald John Trump engaged in high crimes and misdemeanors by inciting violence against the government of the United States.

Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the constitution if allowed to remain in office and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. Donald John Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.


HAYES: Tomorrow, the Senate will be sworn in as jurors in that trial. The trial itself will begin the week of February 8th. I`ll ask the house`s lead impeachment manager this time around, Congressman Jamie Raskin about the trial when he joins me live for an exclusive interview in just a moment.

Now, earlier today, the new leader of the Senate, Senator Chuck Schumer, told my colleague Rachel Maddow what he expects to see in that trial next month and shared his own experience of the attempted insurrection.


SCHUMER: A police officer with a big flak jacket and a big automatic machine gun across this way, grabs me nicely by the collar and says, Senator, we got to get out of here. You`re in danger. I was 30 feet away from those sons of guns, 30 feet away from these nasty, racist, bigoted insurrectionists.

Someone told me, even during the Civil War, no confederate flag ever flew in the Capitol, even during the Civil War.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Could you hear them? Could you hear them?

SCHUMER: Yes, yes. Now, we have the trial. And make no mistake about it. President Trump will stand trial and there will be a vote on his guilt. I hope he`s voted guilty. The trial will be done in a way that is fair, but with -- relatively quickly. The evidence is all out there. Who was the witness? The entire American people. We also would Trump did.


HAYES: That full sit-down interview with the Majority Leader Senator Chuck Schumer is coming up in the next hour on "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW." Don`t go anywhere. Now, every single day brings more evidence of the danger and threat posed by the insurrectionists at the Capitol earlier this month.

The direct incitement of violence by the former president and the fact that the event was the culmination of his months-long openly engaged in plot to seditiously overrule a democratic election and instead install himself in power against the will of the American people.

The article of impeachment is chiefly about that incitement. But that was what he did after nothing else worked. His final act to try to stop the legitimate outcome the election from going forward was to instruct his followers to go up to the Capitol. And when he told them to go to the Capitol, they understood exactly what he meant.

Take a listen to this new video uncovered by Just Security in their analysis at the evidence of incitement at the Capitol.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we`re going to walk down, and I`ll be there with you. We`re going to walk down -- we`re going to walk down -- anyone you want, but I think right here, we`re going to walk down to the Capitol.

We`re going to walk down to the Capitol.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to the Capitol.

TRUMP: And we`re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you`ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Storm the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Invade the Capitol Building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the Capitol.



HAYES: It`s pretty clear what was going on there. We`re going to go down to the Capitol, storm the Capitol, invade the Capitol, take the Capitol right now. They understood. Remember those instructions to his adoring crowd came just a few days after the former president tried to bully the Georgia Secretary of State to fraudulently fabricated boats for him.

We`ve now learned just a few days after he tempted this insane coup within the Department of Justice, his plan to fire the acting Attorney General, replace him with a lackey who believed in the former president`s alternate reality, in order to get the Department of Justice start using the legal muscle of the U.S. government to push the president`s seditious plot.

That episode is now the subject of investigation by the Justice Department`s Inspector General. But not much has changed. No one`s out of the woods. I mean, Donald Trump is off Twitter and back at the Mar-a-Lago omelet bar, but there have been no retractions or mea culpas from the faction of American politics that currently is just under 50 percent faction. That faction, the Republican Party, the part of it that aligned itself with sedition in the House and the Senate, the danger remains.

Thousands of National Guard troops are staying in Washington D.C. because of threats to members of Congress as the impeachment trial itself looms. The very real serious threat of the mob in the Capitol on January 6th chanting hang Mike Pence was just one minute away from coming face to face with the former Vice President and his family.

What do you think they would have done? What do you think they would have done if they ran into say, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? In the wake of the attack, you remember, she talked about her life being threatened, and some prominent frozen dinner, air scoffed. Well, now, a Texas man who is at the Capitol riot has been charged after threatening to assassinate the congresswoman.

There have been more than 100 arrests since the attack, but the mob was many times bigger than that. And again, this force in American life, this violent radicalized force that wants to undo the country`s democratic rule of law is as present as it ever was. And in some ways, impeachment is the rarest of opportunities, very rare opportunity indeed in which a party can formally attempt to exile that seditious faction.

Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland is the lead House impeachment manager. You just heard him reading the article of impeachment on the Senate floor, and he joins me now for an exclusive interview.

Congressman, it`s great to have you. Let`s start, I guess, with the history that`s being made, and why it`s important. You`ve seen some Republicans try to say, look, he`s out of office now, so there`s a lot going on, why do we need to do this? And what is your answer to that?

RASKIN: Chris, thank you for having me on. This was as we have argued and as we intend to show the worst presidential crime against the republic in American history. And the violence was terrifying and overwhelming. Five people died. Police Officer hit over the head with a fire extinguisher, police officers beat up, grabbed, pushed, shoved, jostled.

We saw some really extraordinary things that day. But what America needs to understand, of course, is that Wednesday, January 6th was not some random, arbitrary day chosen by the President and the organizers of this rally. This was the day that Congress met in joint session the House in the Senate to count the Electoral College votes that had been certified by 50 states in the District of Columbia.

So, this was the very last step in the ratification of the popular vote, which went more than seven million votes for the Biden-Harris ticket and the Electoral College vote, which was 306-232, the exact margin, actually, that Trump had won by back in 2016, which he declared to be a landslide.

So, this was the last opportunity. And as we find out more and more every day, the President was willing to use any means unlawful, lawful, lawless, violent, whatever. He was willing to incite insurrection against the United States in order to nullify the actual Electoral College vote that was to be counted, and to try essentially to derail that election and to get himself reinstalled as President of the United States. And so, that is a ghastly crime against the Republic.

One thing that I want to point out, Chris, is that impeachment is not nearly so much about the past as it is about the future. The Framers of the Constitution put impeachment, conviction, and disqualification from further federal office holding in the Constitution, to protect the Republic, to preserve the Constitution. That`s why it`s in there.

President Trump or any other Trump who`s impeached and convicted does not spend a single day a single hour or a single minute in jail. It`s not a criminal prosecution. It is a protective civil action to guard the republic against someone who has committed high crimes and misdemeanors against the people and proven himself to be a danger to the country.

HAYES: That remedy you mentioned which is in the Constitution and also in section three of the 14th amendment, of course, crafted by members of Congress in the wake of the worst insurrection rebellion in the country ever face. That is the Confederacy. It`s very clear in that part of the 14th Amendment, which you cite in the -- in the article and in the impeachment language that this disqualification idea is present throughout the architecture of the Constitution precisely for this reason.

And it strikes me that it`s an interesting counter to the democratic argument that was made, small D democratic argument in the last impeachment trial was, well, there`s just going to be an election in nine months, do you really want to do this. That really isn`t at issue here, is it?

RASKIN: Well, we were founded as a constitutional democracy. We overthrew monarchy and the idea that the government belongs to the king or one man or one man and his friends. According to the framers vision, those of us who aspire to and attained to public office are nothing but the servants of the people.

And the minute that we violate our constitutional oaths and begin to usurp the government for our own purposes and commit high crimes and misdemeanors against the government, that is the moment that we forfeit our public office. Nobody has a constitutional right to be there. And the framers wanted to create a lot of ways to separate ourselves from people who were danger to the continuation of Republican rule. And that`s why we have a republican guarantee clause. That`s why we have a peaceful transfer of power.

What happened on Wednesday, January 6th, was a direct attack on the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution.

HAYES: You refer to danger here. Danger in the sense of two American constitutional democracy, but there`s physical danger as well. As you noted, five people died. The more information we learn, particularly that that moment with Mike Pence just admitted or two pulled into a chamber before that mob comes up and may have set upon him. We have an individual now being charged who said he was going to assassinate AOC.

What is the sort of sentiment among you and your colleagues in both parties, I would say, about what happened there and the sort of first- person effect of it, and how that affects the proceedings? We`re going to see.

RASKIN: Well, I`ll quote two of my Republican Colleagues, Representative Cheney, Liz Cheney from Wyoming said that the President summoned the mob. He assembled the mob, later said he incited the mob. None of this would have happened without the chain of events that he set into motion. And everything is due to what he did set into motion. And she said it was the worst betrayal of office in American history.

But I also quote Lindsey Graham, who I believe I saw said either the day off or the next day, they could have had a bomb, we all could have been killed. And that was my reaction. You know, Chris, I had my daughter with me and I had my son in law who was married to my other daughter with me that day. They were, you know, several hundred feet away outside of the House chamber. We all could have been killed.

That mob that broke through all the windows and bent over the cops and muscled their way in and beat people up, that mob did not go through metal detectors, did not go through security screening, and a lot of them were armed.

HAYES: Final question for you. I know that you lost your son, Tommy, at age 25 just shortly before January 6th. What you and your family wrote about him I found profoundly moving. I know a lot of people who`ve dealt with depression of loved ones in their lives found it profoundly moving. And I know this has been just a brutally difficult period for you. I just wanted to offer my condolences, all of our condolences and ask how you and your family are doing.

RASKIN: Well, thank you, Chris. I have been carrying Tommy Raskin very close to my heart. And all of his friends from Blair High School in Montgomery county, and Amherst College, and Harvard Law School, who really rallied behind us, as well as hundreds or thousands of people from across the country who really saw the magnificent spirit of Tommy Raskin.

And we`ve been collecting the extraordinary essays that he wrote, and I hope we`ll be publishing them soon. A lot of them were already online, a lot of his poetry, a lot of his plays. But also, we`ve got a bunch of unpublished things including, you know, papers he wrote during school. And in addition to everything else, he was magnificently funny and light- hearted.

And so, anyway, we want to get these out to people. But thank you for your condolences, Chris. We feel a little bit better each day. And we feel a little bit better each day that the people rally to defend our republic against this monstrous attack on the Constitution and the people.

HAYES: All right, from one father to another, I just -- I just can`t imagine what it is to do what you`re doing right now. And thank you for all that you`ve done. Congressman Jamie Raskin, the lead impeachment manager for the House, thank you so much, sir.

RASKIN: And thank you for having me, Chris.

HAYES: Tonight, even as thousands of National Guard members remain in our nation`s capitol, Republican officials continue to spread the dangerous lie that inspired the January 6th attack. That`s next.


HAYES: The Trump field attack on the Capitol happened almost three weeks ago. President Biden was sworn in last week, but there are still thousands of members in the National Guard protecting the Capitol, and as many as 5,000 are now expected to stay there throughout the impeachment trial because the threat remains.

Yesterday a federal judge blocked the release of Eric Munchel. It`s this guy. Remember him seen carrying plastic handcuffs through the Senate chamber. After an FBI search Munchel`s home, it turned up, and I quote, "Approximately 15 firearms including assault rifles, a sniper rifle with the tripod, other rifles, shotguns, and pistols, and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. Agents also located a drum style magazine elsewhere in the residence."

Here`s what all that looks like in one place in case you`re wondering. That`s what a guy who assaulted the Capitol building had back at his house. Despite the clear threat resulting from the big lie that Donald Trump actually won the election, state Republican parties seem to be embracing it even tighter.

This is really wild. This is just in the last few days. You`ve got the Texas GOP telling people to follow them on Gab, a far-right social network that the ADL calls home to terrorist plots hiding in plain sight. Also, the Texas GOP including a slogan that echoes the QAnon conspiracy, we are the storm.

An official in the Hawaii GOP resigned today after tweeting about the people who stormed the Capitol threatened lawmakers and killed a police officer, "The people who subscribe to the Q fiction were largely motivated by a sincere and deep love for America." That account also promoted a YouTube vlogger who was a holocaust denier.

The Oregon Republican Party, this is now our third state party just in the last few days, actually passed a formal resolution saying, and this is real, "There is growing evidence the violence of the Capitol was a false flag operation in a frightening parallel to the February 1933 burning of the German Reichstag."

I mean, there were Republican members of Congress in the Capitol during the assault. The President said to go to the Capitol. But if Republicans need incentive to stop spreading conspiracy theories about a rigged election, besides the fact that those lies will have led and will continue to lead to violence undermining our democracy, they need not look any further than Donald Trump`s own lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who today was sued by the voting machine company he has been publicly disparaging for months for 1.3 billion with a B dollars.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell finds himself in the precarious position of trying to balance his party`s swing towards radicalization against democracy with the political benefit of cutting ties with Donald Trump. A dilemma New Yorkers chief Washington correspondent Jane Mayer explored in her latest piece titled Why McConnell Dumped Trump, and she joins me now.

And is the former head of the New Hampshire GOP, co-founder of the never- Trump Lincoln Project Jennifer Warren has also had a front row seat to her former party`s embrace of dangerous lies, and she joins me as well.

There`s sort of two ways to look at the Republican Party right now just a few weeks after the Capitol riot and after, you know, in the Biden era. And I`ll start with you Jane. The Mitch McConnell sort of Chamber of Commerce K Street Republican establishment way of looking at it, how is McConnell attempting to navigate this?

JANE MAYER, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORKER: Well, I mean, he`s basically been described to me as like one of those cartoon characters who`s got one foot on each side of an ever-widening divide. And on one side is the plutocrats of the party who provided the money. It`s the wing that he`s most comfortable with. And on the other side, are the populist who provide the sort of base that -- the Trump base.

And they have together formed a coalition that has been a winning coalition for the Republican Party. But either one by itself can probably not get you over 50 percent of the votes in this country. And so, he`s been trying in a kind of a Faustian deal with Trump through the last four years to keep it together in this coalition, and it`s cracking.

So, he`s trying to figure out his way in there. And he`s very wily, plays the long game. He`s famous for it. It`s what he called his memoir, the long game. And he`s trying to figure out, you know, how do you keep this together so that he can get back the majority in the Senate in 2022?

HAYES: Yes. I mean, we should -- we should note that McConnell was someone who put a lot of oxygen into this same lie that he then turned around and said the people were fed, right? Like, he could have. What a normal thing to do would have been on the day the networks called Joe Biden, you know, the winner to put out a statement being I congratulate Joe Biden, and now it`s time to move on. He did not do that, quite notably, weeks and weeks went by right, pumping air into this thing. And then --

MAYER: Weeks and weeks.

HAYES: Weeks and weeks. Then, you know, right before he sort of turns around and let`s the inaugural committee, then he gives a speech, but it took a long time. And part of the reason he was doing that, Jennifer, is that the grassroots of the Republican Party are the people of the Texas GOP We Are The Storm, and the Arizona GOP that passed a resolution centering like Cindy McCain and every other -- Doug Ducey, the Republican governor, and the Oregon GOP that says it`s like the Reichstag fire. That is who the grassroots of the Republican Party are the people that stormed the Capitol in a lot of ways or at least sympathetic to them.

JENNIFER HORN, CO-FOUNDER, THE LINCOLN PROJECT: No question about it. And it`s -- these are the same people who just reelected Ronna Romney McDaniel without an opponent running against her in New Hampshire just this past weekend, you know, reelecting the same all-in for Trump leadership that have been there for the past four years.

It`s incredibly discouraging for someone like myself who`s invested so much of my time and passion and emotion into what I thought was this great party of principle and leadership to see, since the election, what we see from this party is not that they want to put Trumpism behind them and rebuild a better future. Even without Trump, they`re fully embracing what is certainly the most anti-democracy, most dangerous movement we`ve seen in our country in my adult lifetime. And that`s what they seem to want to build the future of the Republican Party on.

HAYES: This is such an important point, Jane, because it gets to the sort of feedback that you know, Trump`s on Twitter, and he`s -- like I said, he`s at the omelet bar at Mar-a-Lago. Like, who cares? Like, he doesn`t -- he`s not pulling the strings with his tweets tonight. But you`re just now seeing what a demand-side problem it is. It is a demand-side problem.

Trump won the primary because the base of the Republican Party likes that stuff. It likes the Muslim ban, and it likes strong men and opposition to democracy and conspiracy theories. That demand hasn`t gone anywhere. That`s the demand that Mitch McConnell has to cater to, and that the Republican Party is going to continue to cater to unless something profound changes.

MAYER: Well, I mean, listen. As you said, this is the demand that Mitch McConnell did cater to for four years, and then even sort of more dangerously, after the election, after Trump lost, he continued to play footsie with that lie that Trump was perpetrating that he won. And so, he - you know, when you make a Faustian deal, they`re very hard to get out of.

And the conceit of the Republican Party has been that they could control Trump and all the forces that he unleashed. And I think what they`re beginning to realize is they might not be able to control him. And that`s where -- that`s where McConnell is right now.

HAYES: Yes, I think that`s clear. And then there`s -- you know, you`ve got Rand Paul this weekend. You know, Rand Paul basically defending this big lie. Everyone is doing this too cute by half thing now about like, well, we have to look into it. I`m just asking questions, yadda, yadda. But there`s no like definitive aside from Mitt Romney, you know, to his credit, and McConnell, to a certain extent, Jennifer.

The basis to me, the sort of threshold question is, renounce and apologize for lying to people about the election and except its legitimacy. And until that happens, we`re still in the same Netherworld.

HORN: Yes, absolutely. And frankly, I don`t get Mitch McConnell any credit at all. He very much led the charge on this for too long. You know, what we`re seeing happening in the Senate -- happening in the Senate right now as they`re beginning to approach another impeachment trial, all of this that we`ve confronted for the past year 400,000 lives lost and a dangerous violent attack on our democracy, at our Capitol, putting the lives of our elected congressmen and women at risk, all of that could have been avoided had the Republican members of the Senate stood up a year ago and done the right thing then.

HAYES: Absolutely true. I should say, the only people that have renounced and retracted are essentially media figures who are facing lawsuits from enterprises like Dominion and others, who under that penalty have gone before the camera to say, we were wrong about that. That`s it. So, maybe we`ll see Rudy Giuliani do that soon. But that doesn`t apply to members of one of the two major American parties. Thank you very much, Jennifer.

HORN: Don`t hold your breath for that.

HAYES: I am not, believe me. Jennifer Horn, Jane Mayer, thank you both.

HORN: Thank you.

MAYER: Great to be with you.

HAYES: Next, a major setback in the Biden administration`s vaccine rollout. They still don`t actually know how much vaccine they have. I`ll talk to former Coronavirus task force member Olivia Troye about how that could be after this.


HAYES: With Trump out of office a week and former members administration speaking more freely, we`re learning a lot more about the deadly negligence that was the Trump Coronavirus response. Of course, much of it was happening in plain view.

In an interview over the weekend, former Task Force Coordinator Dr. Deborah Birx gave a stunning account of just how disengaged the administration was as the virus took hold.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you were just one. You were coordinator at the task force. What do you mean you were just one?

DEBORAH BIRX, FORMER COORDINATOR, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: There was only one full-time person in the White House working on the Coronavirus response.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How`s that possible?

BIRX: Well, that`s what I was given. So, what I did is I went to my people that I`ve known all through the last years in government, all 41 and said, can you come and help me. I was be able to wicker together a group of volunteers who really helped me.

HAYES: A group of volunteers. That`s what Birx says she had to confront the once in a century pandemic. And while it`s been asked why people didn`t speak up sooner, which I think is a pretty good question, it`s also the case that there were some reasons they may not have.

Consider the story Dr. Anthony Fauci told New York Times over the weekend. One day, I got a letter in the mail. I opened it up and a puff of powder came over my face and my chest. He described the gravity of the experience this morning.


ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: There were only three possibilities. Either it was a hoax which I was hoping and praying it was, it was anthrax which would require my taking, you know, 30 to 60 days of Cipro, or it was ricin which means I was dead no matter what you could do.

So, for a point there, until the FBI and the hazmat people figured out what it was, it was a very, very difficult period.


HAYES: It turned out to be a hoax. But many of the public officials charged with protecting lives were at times in fear of their own. Today, we`re learning from the Biden administration more about the shell of a plan they inherited, if you can call that, as a new CDC director announced, the U.S. government does not even know how much Coronavirus vaccine the country has at this moment.

Olivia Troye is one of the few people in the former administration who did speak out. She was an advisor to then-Vice President Mike Pence, served in the White House Coronavirus Task Force before resigning in protest of Trump`s "flat out disregard for human life," and she joins me now.

I want to get your thoughts on Birx in a second, because as I was watching those clips, I was thinking view a lot. But first on this -- just these basic sort of logistical things that it just seemed we`re not done, like, creating an infrastructure for vaccine tracking and delivery. It just looks like they just never did that. They just thought well, the companies will ship it to the States, and then they`ll handle it.

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER MEMBER, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: Right. I think it was a half-day plan. It was all about let`s develop the vaccine, let`s use this as a success story for the administration, the one thing that we`re going to hang our head on, and it`ll come to fruition. And unfortunately, as you saw, the President was really angry when it didn`t come to fruition before the election because he wanted to take credit for it.

But then, nobody thinks about the aftermath, right, the implementation plan, the amount of money mental and mental work that this takes to actually distribute this in a very efficient and quick manner. And like I saw this firsthand when it came, for example, the Remdesivir distribution, that was botched on day one from the very beginning. I don`t know if you`ll recall that. But it was Dr. Birx who had to actually manually go through with the doctors on the task boards and figure out how they were going to like rectify it. It was awful.

HAYES: Wait. I don`t understand that. So, the Remdesivir was one of the first therapeutics that showed some promise, unlike you know, the crazy hydroxychloroquine, you know, fantasy. And what happened?

TROYE: It was shipped to the wrong hospitals. It was shipped to the hospitals that didn`t need it. And it was awful. And we had to fix that the following week. I lived all of this, Chris, most of it unfortunately firsthand. And that is why I`d have to eventually can`t help it and I have to speak out whatever cause because somebody had to tell the truth about what was happening so that this would not continue and possibly continue into another four years.

HAYES: Well, and Dr. Birx and Dr. Anthony Fauci and many others, I think, made the calculation that it was better for them to be in the room and doing what they could rather than taking the route you did. You were one of the very few who did. And I guess when you listen to Dr. Birx, what do you think about that calculation she made?

TROYE: Yes. It was very emotional for me, I`ll be honest, to watch her in that interview. I certainly saw the things that she faced internally. I saw her -- she faced some very challenging to situations. I shared an office with her for a while. And look, I`m the person that actually was brought into a room at some point when she first started. And she was coming into a no-win situation even more so than I think she even realized. Because I was told that I was to watch her, that she was not to be trusted because she was a Matt Pottinger hire.

Now, I don`t know how to explain what that felt at that moment, to then carry someone who has dedicated her public career and public service to HIV and PEPFAR. I`m very familiar with Dr. Birx`s work. She is a known figure in that space. And she`s brought in to run this response because she`s a medical expert.

And so, here I am as homeland advisor saying, you`re asking me to spy on this woman that I`m sharing an office with, who is on our team, when we know that this pandemic is about to be out of control, we know that people are going to get hurt, and this is where the focus is? Like, these are the dynamics that she was facing. And it was -- you know, I`m glad to see her finally be somewhat free and coming forward and speaking candidly.

Do I wish that she would have been (INAUDIBLE)? I had hoped that she would have been more blunt in her interview. But I know -- also know that is not really her style. She doesn`t speak publicly. She doesn`t talk to the media. That`s just not who she is.

HAYES: I want to quickly show you this -- her talking about the data pollution that was evident to all of us watching and get your response. Take a listen.


BIRX: I saw the president presenting graphs that I never made. So, I know that someone or someone out there or someone inside was creating a parallel set of data and graphics that were shown to the President. You can`t do that. You have to use the entire database.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is doing that?

BIRX: To this day, I don`t know. I know now while watching some of the tapes that certainly Scott Atlas brought in parallel data streams. I don`t know who else was part of it.


HAYES: How does that track?

TROYE: I remember that day because Dr. Burks was really angry and she actually confronted me and said, do you know who created those graphs? Did you work on that? And I said, well, you know that there has been an effort to manipulate the data to downplay this virus. And so, I can only control what the VP -- somewhat control, I would say, what the VP slide said. And honestly, there were times when he would end up with some crazy slide that I didn`t know where it come from, and it come from the communications team. And I operated on facts. And he knew that.

And so, I would literally run down the stairs in the West Wing to her office, shut the door, and show it to her and say, did you make this? And she would be like, no, did you? I thought you made it. And I said, no. So, then we would both run around trying to figure out who did. I mean, this is the chaos of this response. And so, it doesn`t matter when you`re trying to do the work and you`re trying to do the right thing. You`re just never going to be able to counter that.

HAYES: Olivia Troye who is sharing an office with Dr. Birx amongst this -- amidst all this, thank you very much for your time. Ahead, Republicans are vocal in their calls for unity so long as it means Democrats do whatever Republicans want. What unity really means and the stakes for the President`s COVID Relief Bill just ahead.


HAYES: President Biden today signed an order reversing the ban on transgender individuals from serving the U.S. military, a ban that Donald Trump had ordered via tweet back in 2017.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I`m doing is today we now qualified Americans to serve the country in uniform. Transgender personnel, if qualified in every other way, can serve the government or in the United States Military.


HAYES: Now, this is a unifying action by Biden both literally because Americans like Cathrine Schmid can now serve with their units, be united with them, and politically because a broad swath of the country, 71 percent of all Americans, according to one 2019 poll support transgender people serving in the military.

But that`s not how Texas Republican senator John Cornyn sees it. He pointed to Biden`s order today and ask sarcastically, another "unifying move by the new administration?" Well, yes. Cornyn is announcing that bigotry against transgender people is a core value for his political coalition. And it is offensive to them to see the government do otherwise.

And it`s a perfect encapsulation of the bad faith from Republicans when they attack Joe Biden`s calls for unity. What they`re trying to do is say that literally anything you do that offends our base is a betrayal of your promise of unity, which is of course preposterous, made more preposterous by the fact that their party is increasingly run by people at the grassroots level who, to pick just one example from today from the Hawaii GOP, do things like actively promote a holocaust denier.

It is true the country is polarized. There are lots of divisions. That`s true. There is also something approaching unity in a bunch of big stuff, A lot of things that a big majority of Americans support. Like, for example, sending people who needed $2,000 checks. Even Republican Senator Josh Hawley who you may have last seen raising a fist the insurrectionists and said that was a good idea.

Indeed, a poll last month found that 72 percent of Trump voters thought the $600 COVID stimulus check was too small. Joe Biden and his fellow Democrats want to send people more money. They also want broader economic relief, which again, wildly popular. 82 percent of Americans want Biden to prioritize more small business aid. 69 percent want an increase in unemployment benefits. 69 percent also want aid to cash-strapped state and local governments.

So, yes, it`s a really divided country. It`s hard to get much support for basically anything. And guess what, the first agenda item President Biden is trying to push is something people like. So, let`s unify behind the thing that is really popular, and that`s next.



BIDEN: Unity also is trying to reflect what the majority of the American people, Democrat, Republican, Independent, think is within the fulcrum of what needs to be done to make their lives and the lives of Americans better.


HAYES: You know what`s extraordinarily popular with a majority of Americans right now? Giving people money who need it. A poll released a few days ago shows nearly 80 percent of Americans want the Biden administration to prioritize another round of COVID relief checks. A separate poll released today found almost 60 percent of Americans want those checks to be $2,000 on a monthly basis, which is a lot. And it comes with overwhelming bipartisan support from 70 percent of Democrats, 53 percent of them Independents, and nearly half of Republicans.

I want to bring in someone well-versed about the President`s economic plans, Heather Boushey, a member of the White House Council of Economic Advisers. It`s good to see you, Heather. What is your argument? No one`s sort of forthrightly come forward and really making this argument strenuously, but to the best I can see about the arguments against this package that`s been proposed is, it`s too much and we`re going to -- we`re going to err on the side of doing too much. We should wait and see if we need something that`s big.

HEATHER BOUSHEY, MEMBER, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Yes. And I mean, it`s such a -- it`s such a misguided argument, I think, given the economic moment that we`re in and the ongoing COVID crisis, right. As you`ve just said, the American people see that we are in a crisis, that people need money to weather this storm, and that they need the stability of knowing what that policy is going to be.

So, we need to act quickly and act with intention to make sure that people and firms are made whole until we get through this crisis. And I mean, it`s great to see this bipartisan polling that shows that this is really what the American people want.

HAYES: What does quickly mean in this context?

BOUSHEY: Well, you know, there was a package that was passed in December that extend some aid over the next couple months. But what people really need is that certainty. You know, if you listen to the business news, you hear a lot about, you know, how uncertainty is bad for business, it makes it hard to make decisions. That`s exactly what`s happening right now for millions of American families and firms that don`t know what the policy is going to be.

And yet, we all know that because of the COVID crisis, because of the recession that it is caused, we actually still need money to go out to people, we need extended unemployment benefits, we need these direct payments, we need food stamps, and a whole host of other things. I mean, importantly, we need money for the COVID relief to open schools and daycare centers and everything so that we can all get back to work. So, we need that certainty, and we need to know it now.

I mean, schools right now are struggling with, you know, opening and staying open, and they need to know what kind of resources they`re going to have from the federal government.

HAYES: But -- not to press you too much because you don`t control the legislative calendar, but I mean, is that, you know -- we need this in two weeks or we need this in two months. I saw -- I heard Jen Psaki today talk about March, about some sort of a bunch of things expiring in March. You know, you`ve been around politics on Capitol Hill for a little while, that things move slowly there. And I`m worried about a mismatch between the timeline of legislators and the timeline of the current crisis.

BOUSHEY: Well, you know, we have a couple of weeks before the impeachment hearings star. That`s the time to start getting to work on this important business of governing. And, you know, a bunch of these extended benefits do expire in March, but that`s right around the corner. Now, Congress -- you know, I`ve been here a long time, and they like to take things right up to the edge. But you know, I think it would be better for the economy, if we could make this decision and get this package moving as quickly as possible.

HAYES: It seems to me like there`s a lot of lessons that have been learned in Democratic policy circles from 2009, the last time a Democratic president took over control of both houses amidst a plummeting crisis. What are the lessons that you`ve learned?

BOUSHEY: Well, one of the biggest lessons is that the dangers of doing too little far outweigh the dangers of doing too much, right? We saw in 2009 that we did not do enough to address the recession. And as a result, we saw families continuing to struggle for years and years. You know, those at the very top of the income distribution saw their wealth come back quickly. The rest of the American people saw, you know, high unemployment lingering, they saw their wages not growing as fast as they should have.

And although it was the longest economic recovery in U.S. recorded history that ended with the COVID recession, you still saw wages not coming back as fast as we would have liked. So, that is because we didn`t act quickly enough in 2009 and 2010. We have that opportunity now. Let`s address the crisis in front of us. We know the dangers of not doing so.

HAYES: Do you think there`s been a broader ideological shift? I mean, I think there`s specific lessons from Democrats, but it`s striking to me. I mean, Donald Trump, Josh Hawley, Bernie Sanders, and most of the Democrats trying to get supplemental checks. You had Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff running in a swing state who were hammering home on this question down the stretch because they thought it was a political winner for them.

BOUSHEY: Definitely. I mean, this is -- it was -- it was President Trump`s idea to give folks $2,000 checks, and you know, 44 House Republicans voted for it, you know, just a few weeks ago.


BOUSHEY: So, certainly, there`s a deep sense that this is something that`s popular. But I think it stems from the fact that, you know, 2020 has been so rough for so many families. Folks have lost their jobs, they`ve lost hours, they`ve had added expenses. And we know, we all know that our friends, our neighbors, people in our community, they need this help and the support that this money really can make a huge difference.

HAYES: Yes. It`s also I think that sort of medeor from space nature of the crisis in some ways, right? Like, no one thinks that everyone just got really lazy all of a sudden or the incentive structure. Like, we all -- we all know why -- what`s happening. Heather Boushey, thank you so much for making time tonight.

BOUSHEY: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: That is ALL IN on this Monday night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now with Rachel`s exclusive interview with the new Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. Good evening, Rachel.