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Transcript: The 11th Hour with Brian Williams, September 15, 2020

Guests: Stephen Sample, James Carville


President Trump faced tough questions from undecided voters during a wide-ranging town hall Tuesday night on ABC in which he was pressed to defend his responses to the coronavirus pandemic, racial justice protests and health care. Trump tries to take focus off debate over COVID-19 responses. Bob Woodward reveals new excerpts from Trump tapes. Trump spreads QAnon conspiracy theory on Twitter. Lawyers allege abuse of migrant women by gynecologist for Georgia ICE detention center.


LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Laura Helmuth gets tonight's LAST WORD. Tomorrow night, Bob Woodward for the full hour. "THE 11TH HOUR" with Brian Williams starts now.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Well, good evening once again. Day 1,335 of the Trump administration leaving 49 days now until the Presidential Election.

And exactly two weeks until Trump and Biden face off in their first televised debate, the White House today held a ceremony clearly aimed at trying to refocus attention away from the many crises our country is facing to mark the signing of a new agreement between Israel, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain yet by days and the focus was very much right back to the President's approach to the pandemic that has taken more than 196 thousand American lives, infected over 6.6 million Americans.

And what may have been the toughest questioning of this president yet? Donald Trump tonight took questions from undecided voters at a town hall anchored by George Stephanopoulos of ABC News. It was held in Philadelphia, having limited his media exposure to largely friendly outlets, having limited exposure period to the American people, the President seemed to be clearly taken aback by the sharp questions and some of the follow ups in some cases.

Indeed, one of the first questions concerned Trump's comments to veteran journalist Bob Woodward about the risks of the virus.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: I wanted to, I wanted to always play it down, I still like playing it down.


TRUMP: Because I don't want to create a panic.


WILLIAMS: Here's what the President was asked about that tonight.


AJANI POWELL, STUDENT, PENNSYLVANIA: If you believe it's the president's responsibility to protect America, why would you downplay a pandemic that is known to disproportionately harm to low income families and minority communities?

TRUMP: Yeah. Well, I didn't downplay it. I actually, in many ways I have played it in terms of action. My action was very strong.

POWELL: Did you not admit to it yourself, saying that you --

TRUMP: Yes, because what I did was, with China -- I put a ban on with Europe, I put a ban on, so we saved a lot of lives when we did that.


WILLIAMS: That right there is in direct contrast to what the President was saying about his comments to Bob Woodward just last week.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you mislead the public by saying that you downplayed the rotavirus and that you repeatedly did that in order to reduce panic?

TRUMP: Well, I think if you said in order to reduce panic, perhaps that so, I don't want people to be frightened. I don't want to create panic as you say.

Because I want to show calmness, I'm the leader of the country. I can't be jumping up and down and scaring people. I don't want to scare people. I want people not to panic. And that's exactly what I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you lie to the American people and why should we trust what you have to say now?

TRUMP: That's a terrible question and the phraseology, I didn't lie. What I said is, we have to be calm. We can't be panicked. And what I said to Woodward was actually good. I said, calm. We need calm, we don't need panic.


WILLIAMS: Tonight, more of Bob Woodward's recorded conversations with Trump about the pandemic have been made public. CNN Tonight aired new excerpts of those phone calls, including one in July, when the President grew defensive over criticism of his response to the virus.


TRUMP: I've had opposition all my life, Bob, more than most. And let's see how it all turns out. We've got 105 days. Let's see how it all turns out. I think it's going to turn out --

WOODWARD: OK, today at 5 o'clock --

TRUMP: I was unlucky with the virus, because it came in and --

WOODWARD: Sure, I --

TRUMP: Whether it was me or anybody else --

WOODWARD: But you got it, you got it, the country's got it, and the world's got it, but you're in charge of this country. And, you know --

TRUMP: And we've done better than any other country just about, done better than any other country, at handling it. And it's a bigger, more diverse, more difficult country. And we've done better than other than with the press. Other than with the press, I've done a great job. But with the press, I can't do a good job because it's fake. It's fake news.

WOODWARD: Well, but what --

TRUMP: It's a fake group of people and you know it, and you won't write it.

WOODWARD: OK, are you going --

TRUMP: It's on of those things, Bob.


WILLIAMS: The President was asked about the Woodward book this morning during a lengthy live phone conversation on Fox & Friends.


TRUMP: I actually got to read it last night. I read it very quickly, and it was very boring. But there was not much on that book.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it accurate, Mr. President?

TRUMP: That's a boring book. It's OK. I mean it's fine.


WILLIAMS: Trump's opponent Joe Biden was campaigning in Florida today and once again attack Trump for his approach to the pandemic.


JOE BIDEN, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This present is totally ignored. Look what he did. This president knew, he knew the danger, he knew how deadly this pandemic was. And he denied it. He didn't say a word to the American people about it. So this -- he's it's been near criminal the way he's handled this. It's absolutely bizarre.


WILLIAMS: All of this taking place, of course against a new report of escalating tensions between Trump administration officials and the government scientists still struggling to contain this virus.

Tonight Politico is reporting Health Secretary Alex Azar has been battling the FDA Commissioner Dr. Stephen Hahn over COVID test writing, "the fight over lab develop tests has driven a wedge between the agency and the health department. At some points the dispute was so intense that it boiled over into screaming matches between Azar and Hahn."

And there are reports Assistant Health Secretary Michael Caputo has now apologized after posting an online rant, accusing federal scientists working in the pandemic section of sedition while warning of possible coming violence from left wing hit squads. He is said to be considering taking a leave for his health.

Finally, back to the big celebration earlier today on the South Lawn, the Middle East signing ceremony was just the latest White House event with standard close together pre-pandemic seating little if any mask wearing among senior officials. Jared Kushner was asked why that is.


JARED KUSHNER, U.S. SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT: We've been holding our rallies outdoors by and large. We had one where several outdoor venues were forbidden to us by the governor. So that was forced to go indoors. People have a First Amendment right and make matters available, and we ask people to follow guidance. And we also tell people who think that they're high risk for the disease to stay home. But again, at the end of the day in America, we still have to figure out how to live our lives. We're not going to lock ourselves in our home because of the pandemic.


WILLIAMS: Without delay, let's get to our leadoff discussion on a busy Tuesday night, Phil Rucker, Pulitzer Prize-winning White House Bureau Chief for The Washington Post. He is co-author along with Carol Leonnig of the bestseller, A Very Stable Genius. Kimberly Atkins, veteran of WBUR in the Boston Herald, now a member of the Boston Globe Editorial Board. And Jeremy Bash, former Chief of Staff at the CIA and the Pentagon, former Chief Counsel to House Intel. Good evening and welcome to you all.

Phil, I'd like to begin with you, 49 days to go until the election. The candidate, Mr. Trump, that you saw tonight, was he in debate shape and debate ready or did his performance on the ABC News Town Hall show a guy who's been limited to friendly audiences and no time limits.

PHILIP RUCKER, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Brian to be perfectly frank, that performance tonight by the President at the ABC town hall should send shutters and shockwaves through the Republican Party. The first debate is 14 days away to Tuesdays from now and this is a president who's clearly not ready for that debate, his answers especially on the coronavirus, the number one topic for many voters were circuitous. They were curious. They were sort of all over the map at one point. He was even challenging the science behind masks usage and claim that some people don't think masks work. And when George Stephanopoulos pressed him on it, who those people are? The president said waiters at restaurant. It was a very strange answer. He was clearly on the defensive, taking questions from some of the voters in the audience and it was so striking and rare to see real people, real Americans confronting the president with challenging questions, with urgent questions, and having the backbone and wherewithal to follow up with him.

And when the President tried to interrupt him as happened with one woman, a professor, she said no, sir, please let me answer -- ask my question first. It was really a sight to see and assign that this is a president who's rather rusty after so many months of really talking to very friendly interviewers, like, Judge Dineen over the weekend and Fox & Friends this morning. And not really putting himself out there in a grueling way to prepare for these debates.

WILLIAMS: Kim indeed, coming off Phil's answer, you've watched this guy a long time yourself. How does he seem to process the fact that we can hear him on the tapes with Bob Woodward, talk about downplaying the virus, we can see him on those very days, publicly diminish and downplay the danger of the virus to the public?

KIMBERLY ATKINS, THE BOSTON GLOBE EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER: And tonight what he saw was the voters also can see him and hear him as well in that clip that you played with the young woman, she herself, was fact checking the president in real time saying that he did indeed say he wanted to downplay the virus.

You pointed -- Phil pointed out, the professor who insisted that she be able to ask her question, this President is used to shouting down and insulting members of the press when he does do press conferences and otherwise seeking out, you know, media that is that is beneficial to him. But he seemed off, you know, should really be off his step when dealing with actual voters even at one point confusing a woman talking about the death of her mother and asking a question about immigration and thought it was a question about COVID.

And so yes, with two weeks away before these debates with 40 some odd days before this election, his campaign really should hope that he can be able to answer questions directly, particularly questions when he's asked about the coronavirus because he himself said that it was the biggest obstacle that he's faced. But he said he's done nothing wrong. And clearly in the minds of voters several these questions were about the virus itself in the federal response and clearly in the minds of these voters. That is not how they see it.

WILLIAMS: Jeremy Bash, to your area of expertise, it is a skeptical age. And so today's Middle East accord, agreed to on the White House lawn tell us the meaning and impact what's in it. How does this differ from the last one? Are these lasting agreements and who if anyone, do they leave out?

JEREMY BASH, FORMER, CIA CHIEF OF STAFF: I think these are very significant. I mean, after all, you had two Arab nations, two Gulf countries signing a historic peace agreement with Israel. This is no doubt an important accomplishment towards Middle East diplomacy, normalization, and ultimately peace.

Now, of course, the missing aspect of it is what will be the Israeli-Palestinian track, that was not addressed today. In some respects, I think the Arab nations can claim that they might make peace more likely because Israel had to stop its annexation plans, and that could potentially bring the Palestinians back to the tail. But this was no doubt an important significant day. Not unlike the day of the three way handshake between (inaudible) and Carter in the 1970s in the day that King Hussein came to the White House to sign a peace treaty with Israel in 1994.

WILLIAMS: Phil Rucker, Jared Kushner raised the fact today that he has tapes of his end of the Woodward interview. You've spoken to Woodward to quote from you in the Washington Post. Woodward added, I'm quite interested when Jared says he has tapes. I have tapes. I taped him with his permission. I suspect he was taping me. He did not extend the courtesy to me that he was taping the conversation.

Phil, is this a case of someone trying to get out of something uncomfortable in the Woodward interview?

RUCKER: I think that's right, Brian, Bob Woodward quotes Jared Kushner, in his book rage as saying that the most dangerous thing to the president and I'm paraphrasing here the most dangerous thing to the president are the idiots and that he had gotten rid of them and Woodward writes that that was a reference to Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Economic Adviser Gary Cohn. When Jared Kushner was pressed this morning on the TODAY Show by Savannah Guthrie to explain that comment, Kushner claimed that those are not the people he was referring to, that he was speaking instead about staffers on Trump's 2016 campaign.

And so a couple hours later, I had the opportunity to enter Bob Woodward for Washington Post live and asked him to respond to Kushner there and Woodward said, no, no, no, these were not campaign staffers that Kushner was talking about. He was very clearly talking about members of the administration and those three in particular. Woodward, of course, recorded those conversations as he did, all 18 conversations he had with President Trump. And you know, we'll see if he releases that audio or if Jared releases his audio. But clearly this is a case of Kushner trying to back away from a comment that he made to Woodward and was quoted in the book as being derisive and in regards to Mattis, Tillerson and Cohn.

WILLIAMS: Hey, Kim, one of the questioners tonight a civilian was so direct and persistent and effective. I've already heard suggestions tonight that where he really belongs is in the White House press room. I want to play for you a portion of the exchanged where he pressed the President.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to see -- because you say again, we need to see when was that great because that pushes us back to a time in which we cannot identify with such greatness. And I mean, you said everything else about Chokan and everything else, but you have yet to address in acknowledge that it has been a race problem in America?

TRUMP: So if you go -- Well, I hope there's not a race problem. I can tell you, there's none with me, as I have great respect for all races for everybody. This country is great because of it.


WILLIAMS: Kim, your take on that exchange.

ATKINS: The President was given repeated opportunities by this question are and by George Stephanopoulos to address race problems in the United States, be it related to criminal justice and more broadly, and each time he refused to saying -- even saying just there that he doesn't have a problem with race that he does, he hopes that there isn't a race problem. All he would do was defend police officers. He sees this as binary choice between acknowledging the racism that exists in not just the criminal justice system, but in all systems in the United States and supporting police as an either or proposition and you can't do both. And that is his view of this. He did not display any sort of empathy or understanding of the fear that black Americans do have of this idea that Make America Great Again, as some sort of throwback to a time where race problems were even more fraught than they are today. And so it was just an example of this President's view that there isn't race problems, his lack of understanding about it, and that voter was able to really demonstrate that very well.

WILLIAMS: Jeremy Bash, I know you first and foremost as a patriot, and so it was a gut punch for a lot of people today when we read about the Pew poll about how far steam has fallen regarding the United States visa v our leader. The confidence indication is there on the far right for Trump of the U.S. He ranks below Xi, below Putin and forget about the numbers being put up on the board by leaders like Macron and Merkel. How do we ever get this back in a nation where we are fond of calling ourselves from children's earliest memories and history books in school, the leaders of the free world?

BASH: Yeah, Brian, this poll looking at people's attitudes in 13 countries showed that the view of the United States is at an all time low. It's because of the way Donald Trump conducts himself as President it's also because of the way he is failed and his leadership on COVID. And just to come back to the Stephanopoulos town hall tonight, Brian, the most important quote from the President tonight was that he said that that if we don't have a vaccine maybe we'll just go to a herd. He said mentality. I think he meant herd immunity. But even forgetting the flub, a herd immunity strategy would leave 2, 3 million people in our country dead.

So the idea that that is actually on the table by the President as an option if the vaccine strategy doesn't work out, is incredibly alarming and shows you just how failed his leadership has been on COVID. And why that's reflected in this pupil tonight.

WILLIAMS: Indeed, I'm reminded the President's last words in that town hall tonight, this was the quote we made a lot of people look good. He went on to say they didn't all deserve to look good. He was talking about pushing supplies of PPE to governors who don't agree with him politically. But that was his closing quote that during COVID we made a lot of people look good.

Our thanks to our big three for starting us off tonight, Phil Rucker, Kimberly Atkins, Jeremy Bash.

Coming up for us after our first break six months ago today, school, restaurants, Las Vegas casinos were all shutting down because of coronavirus. We'll get an update from the medical frontlines on where this battle stands half a year later now.

And later chilling allegations about an ice detention center in Georgia, and the medical treatments possibly going on inside. All of it as THE 11TH HOUR is just getting underway on this Tuesday night.



WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Almost 196,000 Americans have died from coronavirus and the President sets an example for the American public. Don't you think to save lives he should be doing more as an example?

KUSHNER: Yeah. So what we've seen now is I think mortality is at about 30% on a daily basis of what it was at its peak --

BLITZER: Thousand America today are dying, Jared.

KUSHNER: I think the number is about 700 this week, which is down from a thousand which is down 22,000 --

BLITZER: 700 -- still 700 Americans a day

KUSHNER: Yeah, and at the end of the day we're doing everything possible.


WILLIAMS: That last bit is simply untrue. It is clear by the numbers alone the federal government is hardly doing everything possible not even close. That all started with Jared Kushner being asked about the lack of mask wearing in today's White House event. For the record, another 986 American lives were lost in just these past 24 hours because of the ongoing pandemic. You heard Kushner attempt to re-litigate the death toll there.

Back with us tonight, Dr. Stephen Sample, he is an E.R. doc at Memorial Hospital and Health Care Center out in Jasper, Indiana.

Dr. Before you can say a word, I'm going to play a little bit for you of tonight's Town Hall on ABC News. We'll discuss on the other side.


TRUMP: It is going to disappear. It's going to disappear, I still say it.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: But not if we don't take action, correct?

TRUMP: No, I still say it it's going to disappear, George. It's probably going to go away now a lot faster because of the vaccine. It would go away without the vaccine, George, but it's going to go away a lot faster with the vaccine.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Will go away without the vaccine?

TRUMP: Sure, over a period of time. Sure, with time it goes --

STEPHANOPOULOS: And many deaths.

TRUMP: And you'll develop, you'll develop like a herd mentality. It's going to be -- it's going to be heard developed.


WILLIAMS: Doctor, first of all, how's that herd mentality doing out in Indiana, but seriously, can you inject some science and or medicine here?

DR. STEPHEN SAMPLE, EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN IN JASPER, INDIANA: Good evening, Brian. Man, I am tired. I'm so tired of this. So I know he slipped up. I know he meant herd immunity. But the herd mentality of his acolytes is what's going to keep this virus around longer. It's why we are where we are, it is coming from the top down. And we are just living every single day with the results of his herd mentality.

You know, the vaccine is going to be great, but this administration has done so much to undermine the public confidence in our system, in our apolitical scientific systems, our CDC, the WHO that even if we have a perfect vaccine, I don't know who's going to get it. People are just -- they don't know what to believe.

WILLIAMS: Indeed, on that very point, there's new polling about the decreasing percentage of people who say they will get it. And I don't know if someone thinks we're stupid. The President said today promising, it'll be ready. It'll be developed between four and eight weeks from now, I happen to notice the election is 10 weeks from now, you don't have to be a scientist to get the whiff of a product that is being rushed to market for political reasons. It would be a tragedy if people were scared of the vaccine and would leave us in exactly the same situation, correct?

I mean, you're exactly right, I mean, even physicians and other medical professionals are questioning this now because we don't know what is going on, we know that there are political pressure on the CDC and the FDA. And we have certainly never seen a vaccine comes back.

Now, we've never been faced with a situation like this. And certainly we've set up at a million really smart people working on this, but we've got to do this the right way, or people aren't going to trust it. Even on the medical side, right?

WILLIAMS: Absolutely. And if the University of Washington projections come anywhere close to true, Doctor, we're talking about a death rate closer to 3000 souls per week between now and the first of the year.

SAMPLE: It's match, right, it's -- we're doing a 9/11 every three days right now, and Jared Kushner's on TV trying to minimize it, and I would suggest that Jared Kushner spend less time in his plastic surgeon's office, and I would suggested that he go visited COVID work, because clearly Jared Kushner has never seen the horror and the helplessness that we feel we watch somebody gasp for their last breath. It is the most horrifying thing that you can imagine.

WILLIAMS: Dr. Stephen Sample, thank you for agreeing to check in with us from time to time especially when there's news we need a medical reaction to greatly appreciate it.

Coming up for us, Joe Biden back on the road in a critical state, we'll ask James Carville, how he is doing? How the democratic effort is doing against all this when we come back.



UNDENTIFIED MALE: Was there a moment in all of this last two months, where you said to yourself, you know, you're waking up or you're, you know, whatever you're doing, and you say, Ah, this is the leadership test of a lifetime.



TRUMP: I think it might be but I don't think that. All I want to do is get itself. There are many people that said that to me. They said you're now a wartime president.

UNDENTIFIED MALE: Who said that first to you?

TRUMP: Many people have said that to me.



WILLIAMS: Back with us again tonight to talk about everything we have covered thus far, the sometimes region but always entertaining agent Jamie Carville, veteran democratic strategist who rose to national fame with the Clinton presidential effort and his co host of the 2020 politics War Room podcast.

So James, if you're counseling the opponent, Mr. Biden, if you saw tonight's ABC News town hall if you've heard any or all of the recordings between Woodward and this president, how do you counsel Joe Biden to run against this guy? And is he in debate shape?

JAMES CARVILLE, VETERAN DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: So I would get Michael Bloomberg put out $500 million and run the actual town hall vacation so everybody could see it. I mean his inability to react or empathize with people is something staggering and everybody's trying to wonder why did he do this? He's desperate because he knows he's going to lose it may loses, quite frankly, Brian, in my opinion, he's gone to jail.

And he knows that. So why would he expose himself to a format that is completely ill-suited to him. I mean, it was quite remarkable. And, you know, we haven't worked for Bill Clinton is probably the best one on one politician that ever lived. To watch him the way that he reacts with people is just stunning and is dismissive he is of ordinary people is really starting it, you know, maybe to 42 percent out of within mistake, but boy, he didn't do himself any good beyond that tonight. I didn't see it in any way, shape or form.

WILLIAMS: I was thinking about that tonight. James, two aspects number one tonight afforded interaction with people that despite the fact that that people were in extremists, some campaigns would cherish that moment for that opportunity for interaction. That's number one.

Number two, this President hasn't had a time limit imposed on speaking since the last time he debated and to put it politely he is used to going on a bit.

CARVILLE: Yes, because he's desperate. And he's gotten worse because if the election gets closer, he understands what he's faced with. And he knows what the Manhattan DA is doing. He knows that New York Attorney General's doing, he knows what the general report on obstruction of justice, and he's just swinging wildly and he's also disjointed as you were talking with earlier with the doctor about the herd mentality. Of course, I love that doctor. I love that (JV) got invited to cushing (ph) plastic surgery. That guy's got a career in politics, I'll tell you.

But he's up against the clock. And if Vice President Biden just sticks to the fundamentals, talks about raising minimum wage, talks about bringing prescription drug costs down, talks about expanding infrastructure, talks about health care costs, it can fail COVID response to things that people are living with every day that we have huge unemployment this country with huge unemployment, and people are really hurting out there.

And I think -- I think Biden needs to double down on the very fundamental issues that people are looking for and that will appeal to the democratic base. And by the way, he will have a lot of appeal to these rural voters in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin and Minnesota and Florida, and South Carolina and North Carolina, all over the country.

So I think there's great opportunity here for Vice President Biden to expand his lead, but he's got to do it by doing the basics and doing the fundamentals. I think Bernie Sanders was exactly right. He's got to focus on these issues. And I'm hardly Bernie (Inaudible) I agree completely with his advice to the Biden campaign.

WILLIAMS: Let me slip a break in here, James. And on the other side, when we resume our conversation, we'll ask James his advice for Biden to run against this President in this post truth era will show an example when we come back.



TRUMP: By the way, a lot of people don't want to wear masks. There are a lot of people think the masks are not good. And there are a lot of people that as an example.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who are those people.

TRUMP: I'll tell you who those people are waiters, they come over and they serve you and they have a mask and I saw it the other day where they were serving me. And they're playing with a mask. I'm not blaming that I would just say what happens.

They're playing with a mask, so the mask is over and they're touching it and put and then they're touching the plate. That can't be good.


WILLIAMS: That was from tonight's town hall. James Carville remains with us. James, please give me your reaction to a president who is not just not advocating the wearing of masks in a pandemic with projections that we could save 40 to 60,000 lives. He is sowing doubt about masks in the middle of a pandemic.

CARVILLE: This is a president that attacks fallen soldiers. This is a president that is lived I don't know, 21,214 times. Yes, this is a president that denies any responsibility for the greatest public health crisis we had in this country for 100 years. There's very little that he can do that would astonish me or surprise me.

But what I really thought about tonight was his inability to relate to other human beings. And why would they put him in a situation like that, where, you know, voters don't like them when other voters are treated, cruelly originally. And it's one thing if you want to treat the Speaker Pelosi or Vice President Biden, Gruber (ph), their politicians are big people.

I mean, the first rule you learn in politics is you don't, you know, dismiss ordinary people. And that's exactly what he does. And, you know, it's very little that he could say it could surprise me it, you know, very little can say that the doctor had previously home. I mean, I think they thought Public health experts are just exasperated that they can't believe what they've gone through. And it's tragic.

But we're just going to have more of this. And we're going to see it in the debates and we're going to see it today under the campaign, just it's not going to stop. You can't stop being who he is. And he's a very unskilled politician who's incapable of truth. And that's just at the bottom line where we are.

WILLIAMS: James indeed, it's getting uglier. The President retweeted something we're not going to give airtime to here tonight. It's a QAnon on conspiracy theory that Joe Biden is a child molester. Of course when you're QAnon, you believe all prominent Democrats and anyone connected to the entertainment industry as a child molester.

Well, my friend Wolf Blitzer took this question to Jared Kushner this afternoon. Wolf was angry about this. You could tell I'm going to play that exchange. We'll discuss it on the other side.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: That was very disturbed earlier today when I saw the president retweet was 80 million plus followers a very, very disturbing, ugly message accusing the Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden of actually being a pedophile. Is that appropriate to give publicity to a really disgusting accusation like that?

JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISOR TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will relay to him your concern. And again, I think one thing about this president, he's a very transparent president. He, you know, he lets people know what he's thinking.


WILLIAMS: So James, all that was missing from his expressionless answer was the right answer. And that is, of course, no one believes Joe Biden is a child molester, a pedophile, but this instead is what we have.

CARVILLE: Well, I mean, look, I got to get down the basement daycare was children. I got a lot. I mean, it's ready to go and Jared Krishna is just like, Trump. He knows he's going to pinch. By the way I used to -- I used to represent the jail in Baton Rouge, and he spent Sheriff's Office. Jared is not going to do well in jail. I promise you. It's not the prospect is not going to be good.

And they're just desperate people. They're clinging on to QAnon clinging on to some of the craziest conspiracy theories that you can imagine. And I don't think they have much of a place to go in this. I really don't.

And you're going to see this during the debates. You're going to see this be enhanced. It's going to increase that they're going to start every kind of rumor that they can. And I think we just have to be here and be called Vice President Biden and then Senator Harris and everybody's got to be calm and go through this. And let the American people see who it is.

I'm very optimistic that we're going to have a good election, but we just got to stay focused on the issues and we'll stay focused on people's lives and let him be with QAnon whatever crazy stuff they come up with. I have no idea.

WILLIAMS: This is the world we've been handed in the year 2020. James Carville, grateful as always, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

CARVILLE: Thanks for having me.

WILLIAMS: That's for sure. Coming up after this break, a new week, and there's now another whistleblower only this case is very different from the others. If this allegation is true, the horrifying abuse at an ICE detention facility could rival other historic atrocities. One of our reporters tracking this story joins us to talk about it right after this.


WILLIAMS: We are following some horrible allegations out of an ICE detention center in Georgia, a nurse at that facility and lawyers representing clients there claim that immigrant women are telling them they are routinely being sent to a gynecologist who performed unnecessary procedures including hysterectomy. Hysterectomy is forced sterilizations.

The nurse Dawn Wooten has filed a complaint with the Department of Homeland Security. Earlier today, Ms. Wooten spoke to our own Jacob Soboroff and a warning what she has to say here, in addition to this story itself is disturbing.


JACOB SOBOROFF, NBC NEWS REPORTER: You're quoting the complaint of saying that's his specialty. He's the uterus collector. Does that help people refer to this doctor?

DAWN WOOTEN, FILED WHISTLEBLOWER COMPLAINT: That's how the detainees refer to this physician. They refer it to him if I had detainee to ask me she said, Well, what is he doing Ms. Wooten, collecting all of our uteruses? And I just looked at her puzzle because I didn't have an answer.


WILLIAMS: The private company that runs the detention facility released a statement that reads in part and we quote, LaSalle Corrections has a strict zero tolerance policy for any kind of inappropriate behavior in our facilities and takes all allegations of such mistreatment seriously. Our company strongly refutes these allegations and any implications of misconduct at the ICDC. That detention facility.

In a statement Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, says the accusations will be fully investigated. That's a quote they denied. Detainees are being used for experimental medical procedures adding quote, ICE's mission is to protect the homeland and to swiftly and quickly remove people from the country, the health, welfare and safety of ICE detainees is one of the agency's highest priorities any assertion or claim to the contrary, is false and intentionally misleading.

ICE also says since 2018 two individuals from the facility were referred to doctors for hysterectomies.

Now NBC News National Security and Justice Correspondent Julia Ainsley has been following this story and joins us tonight. Julia, give us the benefit of yours. Reporting, talking to these women directly and trying to reach one of the attorneys in this case.

JULIA AINSLEY, NBC NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: So Brian, what we can tell you is that we have spoken to four attorneys who say that their clients who were in the Irwin County Detention Center in Georgia were sent to this doctor, his name is Mahendra Amin, that is the doctor that these lawyers, each individually identified without us prompting his name.

We reached out to him and I have to say I called the office someone picked up the phone like I'd be making an appointment as soon as I identified myself as reporter they hung up. I was not able to get through to get a response from him because his lawyers had told us that their clients, the detainees said that they thought that he was unnecessarily harsh.

One had a client who reported bruising. One had two clients who reported hysterectomy is that they found out later that they did not need that he told them that they had a cancerous condition that needed to be taken care of. They agreed to the hysterectomy only to find out later that was not the case that they did not have to go that far with that procedure.

But now here is what Dr. Amin told BuzzFeed again. NBC News has not yet talked to this doctor. But he did say that, his lawyer said that Dr. Amin is a highly respected physician who has dedicated his adult life to treating the high risk, underserved population and rural Georgia and they believe that this allegations that started with the whistleblower Jacob spoke to that they believe that after they investigate those allegations that Dr. Amin will be cleared of any wrongdoing.

And I will say all of these are allegations right now none of this has been presented in a court of law. Dawn Wooten sent that complaint to the Inspector General of DHS. They will do their digging. She did not name names. She did not even name this doctor. She did not give dates. It was only from us speaking to lawyers with clients in this facility. Did we learn more of the story.

We've also learned that this doctor is someone who they send detainees to outside of the facility. He's not actually working inside for ICE. One other detail though, Brian, that I did learn about this doctor is that in 2015, he and other doctors had to settle and pay over $500,000 in civil penalties for Medicaid and Medicare fraud with the Justice Department, that settlement and 2015.

WILLIAMS: All right.

AINSLEY: So we're learning more, but right now he's denying.

WILLIAMS: What a potentially explosive and obviously potentially very hurtful story. Julia Ainsley, thank you. We will stay on this story with your help.

Coming up, a late live updates on the danger that millions are facing as we go on into the late night.


WILLIAMS: Last thing before we go tonight an update on hurricane Sally. While it has hardly moved other than swirling over these past few hours, it has changed. And while it's hardly the worst hurricane they've seen in the Gulf, they've seen worse this year. In fact, it's the duration and the precipitation that make this unique.

There is good news for certain folks. New Orleans is out of the warning area. They may just get light showers from this but there's bad news for other folks from Mobile to Pensacola, from Pascagoula to Gulf Shores to Orange Beach. In some places, in fact, 30, 30 inches of rain is a possibility.

You'll see what I mean here shortly. Tonight, our own Ali Velshi is in Orange Beach, Alabama, directly on the Gulf Coast where the storm is knocking on the door. Hello, my friend.

ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST "VELSHI": Brian, good evening from Alabama, this store -- with the top of the hour the storm was 60 miles due south of me moving at two miles per hour, which means it's about 58 miles out right now.

I have never in 15 years of covering hurricanes been 8, 10, 12 hours away from landfall and seen this kind of precipitation and this kind of wind from a storm that's almost 60 miles out. It's been raining since afternoon here. So this is going to soften up all the ground around here that even if we get to 90 miles an hour in terms of wind, at that point, you could push poles down or you could push trees down. So it's going to become quite dangerous. We've seen a lot of flooding already.

This thing is expected to make landfall. There are some estimates at about 8:00 a.m. Eastern time. The math suggests it's going to be later than that, unless it speeds up a little bit. But look at these kinds of words. Can you imagine this blowing for the next eight or 10 hours and the destruction that this can cause. It's probably going to make landfall as of the latest estimate, several miles west of here.

We're between Mobile and Pensacola. We're right here on Orange Beach. And everybody's bracing for this storm to come in. Most people who have evacuated -- who can't evacuate have evacuated, a lot of the gas stations in the area are now out of gas. And there's certainly no chance of getting out now if you haven't done so.

So everybody right now in this area is hunkering down. But again, as you said, not going to be the biggest of storms. Certainly not even the biggest this region is seen, but it is going to be soaked. And these winds, again, eight hours out, nine hours out are still remarkably high. Brian.

WILLIAMS: All right. Thank you very much for your live report. I hope you and the crew are safe. I hope you and the crew can dry out at least between now and tomorrow's landfall, and let's not forget that the storm has flooding potential as it moves inland, up toward Atlanta, Georgia and through the Carolinas. Ali Velshi, our thanks for that.

It is indeed a blessing. This storm does not have winds and rain in equal measure. This will cause enough trouble for enough people. And on top of the suffering out west and the rampaging wildfires, please spare a thought for those Americans who are on the run tonight forced into shelters in the middle of a pandemic. And this is going to be another long night along portions of the Gulf Coast, like Orange Beach, Alabama.

That's going to be our broadcast for this Tuesday night. Thank you for spending this time with us. On behalf of all my colleagues up the network's of NBC News, good night.


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