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Transcript: The 11th Hour with Brian Williams, October 7, 2020

Guests: Pete Buttigieg, David Plouffe, Mike Murphy, Karine Jean-Pierre

Summary

Kamala Harris and Mike Pence clash over coronavirus response in vice presidential debate. Pence defended the Trump administration's handling of the pandemic while Harris called it "the greatest failure of any presidential administration." Sparks still flew from both sides of the stage on a range of issues, including the coronavirus pandemic, climate change, trade, jobs, and America's posture toward China and Russia.

Transcript

CLAIRE MCCASKILL, MSNBC POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. I thought particularly, she was effective on pointing out the debt that he has, and the American people have a right to know. And I thought one of her most effective moments in the debate was saying you lost the trade war with China. You have a trade war and you lost it. And then she went on to enumerate the facts how he -- they had lost this trade war.

So I think all of those, she was prepared, and it didn't look like she was working at it, that she had a command of it. And that's where that ethos of strength comes from that she had a command of all this knowledge that she could bring to the debate. So I thought all of those were very, very well done.

And I think most people would agree regardless if especially if they didn't, they were just watching it blind and didn't associate one with Trump and one with Biden.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Claire McCaskill, former Democratic senator from the great State of Missouri, Michael Steele, former RNC Chairman, thanks to you both, for being with us tonight. It has been a fascinating night. The fly is currently in negotiation for (inaudible), we're told and so we're going to go over that on the business side. Our coverage here continues now with Brian Williams, Brian.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: To Rachel Maddow, to Joy Reid, to Nicolle Wallace, our thanks.

And good evening. Once again, welcome to what will be an especial expanded debate night edition of THE 11TH HOUR. This was day 1,357 of the Trump administration, 27 days to go until Election Day. The one the only vice presidential debate of this cycle is now in the books. Mike Pence, Kamala Harris, faced off behind plexiglass shields, 12 feet apart on stage in Salt Lake City before a small, masked and distanced audience all reminders of how the coronavirus continues to ravage our country uncontrolled, including at the White House where let's not forget the infected President who had to be hospitalized. Today return to the Oval Office, posted a video calling his illness a blessing in disguise and talking about a cure.

Tonight's debate was much more civil than the one we saw last week. But this administration's response to this virus still came under heavy fire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country.

MIKE PENCE, (D) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: From the very first day, President Donald Trump has put the health of America first. When you look at the Biden plan, it reads an awful lot like what President Trump and I and our task force have been doing every step of the way. And quite frankly, when I look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new PPE, developing a vaccine, it looks a little bit like plagiarism, which is something Joe Biden knows a little bit about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Keep in mind, Mike Pence is the Chair of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, which in its public face exists really in title only these days.

Later, Kamala Harris brought up President Trump's reported non-payment of taxes, which brought a vigorous defense from the Vice President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: We now know because of great investigative journalism, that Donald Trump paid $750 in taxes. When I first heard about it, I'd literally said you mean $750,000. And it was like no $750. We now know Donald Trump owes and is in debt for $400 million. And just so everyone is clear, when we say in debt, it means you owe money to somebody. And it'd be really good to know who the President of the United States, the commander-in-chief owes money to.

PENCE: The American people have a president was businessman, IT'S job creator, who's paid tens of millions of dollars in taxes, payroll taxes, property taxes, he's created 10s of thousands of American jobs. And the President said those public reports are not accurate and the President's also released literally stacks of financial disclosures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Then there was this exchange on the topic of race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: This presumption that you hear consistently, from Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, that that America is systemically racist. That is Joe Biden said that he believes that law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities is a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement and I want everyone to know who puts on the uniform of law enforcement every day? President Trump and I stand with you, but we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement proven public safety and supporting our African American neighbors for all of our minorities.

HARRIS: I will not sit here and be lectured by the Vice President, on what it means to enforce the laws of our country. I'm the only one on this stage, was personally prosecuted, everything from Child Sexual Assault to homicide. I'm the only one on the stage was prosecuted the big banks for taking advantage of America's homeowners. I'm the only one on this stage who prosecuted for profit colleges for taking advantage of our veterans. And the reality of this is that we are talking about an election in 27 days, were last week, the President of the United States took a debate stage in front of 70 million Americans and refused to condemn white supremacists.

WILLIAMS: And otherwise tense and meaningful exchange from tonight during which Mike Pence was joined by the aforementioned fly.

Here for our leadoff discussion on this Wednesday debate night, Claire McCaskill, former Democratic senator from the great State of Missouri. James Carville, Veteran Democratic Strategist, rose to national fame with the Clinton presidential campaign and his co-host of the 2020 politics War Room podcast. Our own Lawrence O'Donnell, host of the 10 p.m. Eastern hour here on this network, and back with us as well, Pulitzer Prize-winning Columnist for The Washington Post.

Claire McCaskill at the risk of going over, already plowed ground, I found the personas stayed within our expectations. Mike Pence played Mike Pence, Kamala Harris played Kamala Harris.

MCCASKILL: Yeah, she was definitely Kamala. I think she was -- she connected, she was warm, but she was in command and she was strong. And I do think that the moments that stood out in the whole debate besides her, really showing her command of a great bit of policy across a lot of different sectors of public policy was health care and, and the mismanagement of the COVID crisis. I think both of those issues are very important in four weeks, and I think she handled them pitch perfectly.

WILLIAMS: James Carville, Tim Kaine, the last person to have debated Mike Pence before a national audience said this about Mike Pence, remember the former radio talk show host, "He can look in a camera and deliver a line with utmost sincerity, even if he knows it to be absolutely untrue." James, what stood out to you tonight?

JAMES CARVILLE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, one thing stood out to me is I will not be lectured, Harris said that multiple times. Women hate to be lectured by men. And she drove that point home. The other thing that stood out to me is she referred to by Biden is Joe, that was a very conscientious decision that was made before. I mean, those were two things that struck me again and again.

And Kaine was a radio guy. Remember, they will be seen all the time, even when we're not speaking. And Harris was much better train. If you notice, she didn't lose it cool. She smiled. She took notes and Pence grimace the whole time, because you will own 100% of time. If it would have been a radio debate, she would have won 55/45. But it was not a radio debate, it was a television debate. And I'm surprised that his people didn't train him better for that. But she really wants to not do not speaking part -- the visual part of that debate.

WILLIAMS: Lawrence O'Donnell, did you concur with Nicolle Wallace's -- I found very interesting, instant analysis about the Vice President's low energy performance. She called it flashing?

LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Well, you know, I don't know. Maybe only has the first year in a second gear anyway. I've never really seen him running at higher speeds, much higher speeds than that. So I can't say, can't tell much about that. I do think though, that, as an overall note, my kind of biggest global note of this event is, what does it mean for Donald Trump? By which I mean, we saw a debate tonight there were three people speaking two of them were reasonable and polite. And one of them was Mike Pence, who was mostly polite but did interrupt and did do the guy thing of demanding and getting more time to speak than the woman.

But compared to Donald Trump, Mike Pence is a prince of gentility. And, you know, people are who went through that endured that Trump debate watching this tonight, you have to wonder or they're watching this and thinking oh, so it could be like this instead of the insanity, the brawling in stumbling, crazy insanity that they saw at the other debate.

And so in that sense, Mike Pence may have done a great disservice to Donald Trump, just by the stark contrast between the two of them just in the way they handle themselves on the stage. Although, you know, without Donald Trump, Mike Pence would have been the rudest debater we've seen working this particular campaign so far.

WILLIAMS: I don't know that we are allowed to ask a Pulitzer Prize recipient to go ahead and write his column on live television, but I just did.

EUGENE ROBINSON, THE WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Well, you you've done it before actually, Brian. So you're excused. Look, I think what was -- in many ways, what's notable about this debate is what didn't happen. We neither really went after the other in the way that we certainly know, Senator Harris can because we saw her do it during the democratic debates and Mike Pence certainly could at least try to do.

But it's interesting. I think there's like different reasons for that, too. I mean, if you're Kamala Harris, and the polls are showing your guy, nine and a half points ahead, or whatever the average is right now and things are looking pretty good. You don't have to take that haymaker that might leave you exposed in some way. You can, you know, you pick your punches, but you don't have to swing for the fences. And if -- but if you're Mike Pence, and you're looking at a, you know, you're behind by nine points or so, I kind of wondered why he didn't take more chances. He didn't take very many chances in the debate. And maybe that's just not his style. But it also occurred to be that maybe he's thinking four years hence, maybe he's thinking a little bit or almost as much about 2024 as he thinking about 2020.

WILLIAMS: James, back to you, because there's going to be a lot of talk about that. That would assume that a reformed Republican Party in the event of a Trump-Pence loss, in the event of say a change in power in the Senate, that would assume that a reformed Republican Party would fancy Mike Pence at the top of their ticket four years from now?

CARVILLE: Well, I think Gene made the point. This was the first debate of the 2024 cycle. And was probably be and even if the vice president said one term, and Harris runs, she's not going to run on the polls if this going to be a vigorous contests on the Democratic side. And also, I thought she helped herself more for 2024 than Pence helped himself. But I did view this if the first debate of the 2024 primary cycle. And I think that the two of them, in two staffs probably viewed it the same way. But the other thing is, how many times did Susan Page (ph) say thank you, Mr. Vice President? I think it was over 100. I was trying to count. But, yeah, I'm not be able to slip it, it just rang in my face. But yes, you have to be conscious of 2024 because they're sizing these people up already tonight to say it that that's politics. You always look into the next one.

WILLIAMS: Let's get more reaction from the man who's standing by to talk to us who actually played the part of Mike Pence during debate prep. with Senator Harris. Because he has debated both Mike Pence and Senator Harris in the past former Democratic presidential candidate, Pete Buttigieg who joins us from Salt Lake City.

Mr. Mayor, duel question. Number one, how do you think your client and friend did tonight? Number two, looking back, did you throw it all in? Did you get it all right? Did you leave it all on the field when you were portraying Mike Pence? Were there any surprises that were not on your list?

PETE BUTTIGIEG, (D) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, first of all, I'm so proud of Kamala Harris. She made such a powerful and direct case, got right past the sort of Trump twitter noise machine to speak to the American people about what we know to be true. You know, the V.P. kept trying to create this picture that everything's going along just fine in America. And she poked right through that, explaining how the failures of this presidency had led us to where we are, and I think doing a great job of reminding us, not only what we're against, but what this ticket is for? What Joe Biden and she and a democratic administration could do to invest in infrastructure and give us a fairer economy and make sure that we're expanding healthcare. It was a command performance.

And as far as Vice President Pence, I viewed it as my job to do everything I could to throw every curveball and just make sure she was prepared for the kinds of things he would say. Because it is difficult to prepare to debate somebody who will be perfectly happy to say something that's not true in a smooth, calm, reassuring tone like it's God's honest truth.

The only real surprise, I would say, was the disrespect that he showed for the moderator and for the rules. You know, he's gentleman, generally somebody who's tries to be very gentlemanly. And I don't know if that was a factor of being spooked by what's going on in the polls. I don't know if he was trying to impress his boss, you know, often there's an audience of one that you have to think about if you're part of the Trump machine. That was the one thing that that happened more than I would have guessed, although he does have a certain knack for, as we saw in 2016, for interrupting without making it look like he's interrupting.

But besides that, you know, what we really saw, it was kind of the same old effort to make it sound as if everything's going great in the worst pandemic response in the world and in this economic calamity. He clearly was not able to do what he needed to do tonight, which was to somehow change the dynamic of the race, or to have a huge win. He gave a defense of the president that was loyal, but I also thought a little bit lifeless.

WILLIAMS: Let's go back to the point you just made and let's call it Pence explaining (ph). His game is to use a combination of kind of certitude and piety to control his pace of speaking to control his manner of speaking, and you are not alone. Good many people noticed that dynamic tonight, first of all the math, the times he went over a lot of times that were never seemingly paid back to Kamala Harris. But I guess I'm asking was it painfully obvious to you in her camp backstage watching in real time?

BUTTIGIEG: It was very obvious, although I should say I was in the hall. I didn't even find out about this famous fly until after it was all over. But it was certainly something you couldn't escape just because he kept repeatedly running over her. And, you know, it was hard not to think about the gender dynamics on the stage and conscious that I'm that I'm, you know, I've found debates very challenging. And I know that I'm debating as a man and as a white candidate. I think it's also worth mentioning that, you know, she was carrying the weight of history in a lot of ways on that stage tonight and did it so well and so effectively.

WILLIAMS: I also wanted to ask you, it appeared that Trump during the debate, tweeted something about our servicemen, our remaining servicemen and women in Afghanistan, being home by Christmas, that is a meaningful thing, as no one needs to remind you. That's a big deal to loved ones of our men and women in a far flung and dangerous place like Afghanistan. Do you think matters military got the airing tonight that they should have?

BUTTIGIEG: Well, you know, I'm glad that there was at least a little bit of discussion of the importance of the regard that and the respect that a commander-in-chief ought to have for those who serve and, you know, the there needed to be a moment of accountability for this president referring to our war heroes, and our war dead is suckers and losers for the way he's talked about prisoners of war like John McCain, and she was able to, I think, deliver that and call him to account.

Nothing would be better than for us to have a stable, peaceful end to the Afghanistan conflict and bring folks home. I'm on messaging, just today with friends, some of whom are gearing up for another tour in the Middle East. And, you know, there's been coverage about now kids picking up, you know, patrols that their parents served or going into the conflict with their parents or because it's been 19 years old enough to enlist and have been born after this conflict started.

Of course, whenever this president says a certain things going to happen by a certain date, often, if not most of the time, that turns out not to be true. But this is one case where I hope and pray that what we heard is actually accurate.

WILLIAMS: Pete Buttigieg, knowing something about the schedule you've been on in the day you've had, thank you very much for reserving time for us at the end of your day after this event tonight, greatly appreciate you joining our coverage.

Our coverage is going to take its first break more of our special extended edition of our broadcast tonight following this vice presidential debate with those four friends of our broadcast right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: American people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. And here are the facts, 210,000 dead people in our country in just the last several months, over 7 million people who have contracted this disease.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: And then talk about fighting a rule change during a pandemic that would allow universal mail-in voting. Still with us, Claire McCaskill, Lawrence O'Donnell, James Carville.

Claire indeed, you kind of had to remind yourself while watching this live 90-minute telecast that if the Vice President wants to go enjoy a victory lap with the President, he has to be wearing PPE, the White House is its own coronavirus hotspot, all hyperbole aside, it's a clinical matter?

MCCASKILL: And one of the things just as fascinating to me is that Pence will sit there and lie about COVID and the response to COVID and their respective science. And it's like he doesn't think any of us have been watching. It's like he doesn't realize the American people have had a front row seat to this massive incompetence and mismanagement. And so, you know, that's the real disconnect. And that's the problem that he has. He may have been super soft and, you know, just syrupy and sweet. But it was not true and the American people know it.

WILLIAMS: Next question to James Carville and his United States Marine Corps Breast Cancer Awareness hoodie, I just saw a tweet from a friend of yours, a former war -- a fellow warrior in the Democratic Party, Joe Lockhart. "I disagree that no votes were changed tonight. Women hated Pence tonight." And James, that goes to your previous point.

CARVILLE: Right. Yes, it does. And look, Senator Claire, she'll tell you that. And I think that that came in and they knew that was going to happen. And Pence does come across like he's being kind of condescending, and she jerked back every time that she had to. And you know, they're rolling up big numbers here. You know, that is Joy said earlier, they get all the African American women that couldn't get it. But they just got a lot more intensity now because there's one thing under (inaudible) and they don't like Pence's tone towards Senator Harris. But that was a good point. I think Joy is right, they'll give some more vote but what they should do is solidified, particularly female voters tonight. I think Joy's point is well taken to do.

WILLIAMS: Lawrence O'Donnell, there is a serious matter. And it's contained in the video the President did from the Rose Garden, apparently this afternoon. These kinds of things are often shiny objects. They're often distractions to be passed off. But this falls into the news category for what he said, and his demeanor while saying it will run this clip. I'll get your reaction on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: I want everybody to be given the same treatment as your president because I feel great. I feel like perfect. So I think this was a blessing from God that I caught it. This was a blessing in disguise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So Lawrence, the President said he chose his treatment regimen. The President said he knows it's a therapeutic technically, but he called it a cure. If he did it once, be prepared to hear that word over and over again. This is a man who is still just back from the hospital, still just days into a positive diagnosis. And who is medicated?

O'DONNELL: Yeah, and he said something that everyone in America knows is impossible. We all know that no matter how great our healthcare might be, even the richest people in the country, they know that they cannot ever buy health care. That is the equivalent of the President of the United States, no matter who the president the United States is. That's just the way it is. There is a top of the mountain in American Health Care treatment, and that is the President United States.

And so for him to go out there and say, you're going to have the same treatment I had every single person hearing that including every single Trump voter knows that that's an absolute lie. And for him to do it, looking like he has escaped from some kind of medical institution, not like he was released, his faces two different colors there. We've never seen those particular two different colors. The bottom half of his face is one color. The top half of his face is another color that he does look like he's escaped from somewhere to get to run up there into that yard and do that.

And let's remember, someone is holding that camera. Someone's holding that camera, someone is holding that camera, feet away from that highly infectious man who is capable right now of killing people. He has a disease that can kill people if he transmits it to other people. And he's forcing someone to stand out there with a camera and another person out there with sound as, you know what's out there, Brian to collect that video. There's a few people out there to do that. And they have to stand within close proximity to him as he's barking that out in that looking like, as I say, like he's just escaped from somewhere to bark that stuff out. So he is threatening the lives of the people standing right there recording that video. The whole country is watching him threaten people's lives right there. So he can tell a lie. The lie that you can get, the same treatment he gets, I guess, complete with helicopter rides to and from the hospital.

WILLIAMS: Eugene, the, as I said, the President's presiding over a free standing hotspot that just happens to be the people's house. This becomes our business in several ways. We only have one president at a time. It is the center, the head of our government article in your newspaper talks about what a dicey, uneasy and vulnerable time this is for us in the national security space. And this really becomes our business. If this guy adheres to what he's saying he's going to do, not only going to a debate with Joe Biden, but going back out on the road in some form or fashion.

ROBINSON: Right. I mean, he's, you know, typhoid Donald, really, I mean, he's threatening to spread this disease. He is also -- he is already likely. And we don't know if he's patient zero in the White House cluster of infection. But he's a very low number, it seems in this cluster, that is growing, that has measurably boosted the number of weekly infections in the District of Columbia just because of the White House cluster

Now there's a Pentagon cluster as well, that's affecting the high command of our military. And if so, if nothing, if nothing else could drive home the failure of this administration to control the COVID epidemic is it's the fact that it has invaded the centers of power of this country, the most protected man, on the face of the planet is a COVID-19 patient and a vector of disease.

And as Lourdes poetically said, looks as if he just escaped from somewhere as he gave that speech today, it is just astounding. And that's the landscape for this election. And that's why, in the end, I think the vice presidential debate, every debate changes, some minds, I think, but I don't think that's changed many because of the reality that's right outside that debate hall. And the reality is, that this is an utter disaster that Donald Trump has presided over, an utter disaster that has affected him, that is that has felt even him.

WILLIAMS: Indeed, tonight when Pence was asked why on earth and I'm paraphrasing, the White House had not just the Rose Garden event, largely unmasked, but receptions that we're only finding out about late in the game. His answer appear to be looking at my notes, because Donald Trump and Mike Pence respect the freedom of the American people

Great thanks to our front for tonight. Claire McCaskill, Lawrence O'Donnell, and James Carville, United States Marine Corps. Coming up for us after a break two more campaign veterans give us their take on what they saw tonight when our special post debate continued coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: If you have a preexisting condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. If you love someone who has a preexisting condition for you, if you are under the age of 26 on your parent's coverage, they're coming for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Doesn't happen often. But once in a great while you realize watching something happened during a debate. It's a quote we will hear again and again on into the future. That was one of them. Back with us again tonight is David Plouffe, former Obama campaign manager, senior advisor to President Obama. His latest work is "A Citizen's Guide to Beating Donald Trump" and Mike Murphy, Republican strategist, co-director of the Center for the Political Future at the University of Southern California. Gentlemen, welcome to you both.

I guess, David, I'd like to begin with you. What was that in your view tonight that we just witnessed for 90 minutes?

DAVID PLOUFFE, FORMER OBAMA, CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, it was a return to some sense of normalcy in terms of how a debate unfolds. You know, Brian, you and I have talked a lot about the numbers. And I think the reality of this race when I've prepared for debates before, the question always is our voters going to behave differently before the debate and after. And with Joe Biden having a significant and stable lead, are there going to be voters now who said they were going to vote for Joe Biden three hours ago who now switches? I don't think that's the case. I think they both had their moments. I think common error sets and strong moments around the coronavirus.

One of the observation I have though is the last question in both debates was about Donald Trump saying he might not abide by the election results. And I don't think either Kamala Harris or Joe Biden have made Donald Trump pay the full price for that deeply unpopular position. And I think at the town hall next week, assuming the debate happens in Florida, that would be something I'd like to see Donald Trump really pay the price for, because my sense is 80 to 85 percent of the American people, which includes a lot of Donald Trump supporters think the person who wins the most votes should win the election.

So my sense is the race doesn't change much. And when you're ahead of the race and the race doesn't change much, that's a good night for you.

WILLIAMS: Mike Murphy, in addition to the obvious the differences of gender, the differences of policy on that stage tonight there was this something about bearing where it also concerns gender, could have been her dad, was there a generational difference between these two people who are not all that far too far apart in age?

MIKE MURPHY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I think so. Because when Pence got that predictable question on global warming, and climate change, and he didn't really give a direct answer. He said the planet is getting warm, and then he kind of went trotting off into his stick.

I think that was a jarring point to younger voters. So even though in age they're kind of the same in vibe, she represents younger America, and in demography, is he really doesn't but I have to kind of agree with David overall, I think nothingburger magazine has a pretty good cover story. These vice presidential debates normally don't matter that much. And this whole race is about Donald Trump getting clobbered because female voters don't like him by huge margin.

So if anything happened tonight to move suburban voters, college educated women back to Donald Trump, and I'd say to the tone and everything, net-net, no. So it's a good night for Joe Biden because nothing changed and Biden's in a commanding position, I thought, occasionally she wobbled. I thought he kind of blitzed her at the beginning, but she rallied and she got the biggest soundbite, which we heard on the bump in they're coming for you, which is right down the alley on the issue of healthcare and preexisting conditions, which the Democrats would love to debate every day for the rest of the campaign.

WILLIAMS: And David Plouffe indeed as opening quotes go the one I wrote down in her first sentence, the coronavirus response was the greatest continues to be the greatest failure of any presidential administration. If you're the incumbent VP, that's a tough one to come back from but then again, to all the souls we've lost, so as a death toll of 210,000 and rising.

PLOUFFE: Right, Brian. Well, listen, I think the American people have already rendered their verdict on what they think of Trump and Pence handling on this and they think it's a disaster. So, you know, Trump has his talking points. Trump or Pence had his talking points tonight. Trump will have his story last week.

But listen, for more important to this presidential election than the debate tonight has been the last week and I don't think there's been a presidential candidate who's had a worse seven days than Donald Trump. He had a disastrous debate last Tuesday, which showed his already alarming poll numbers getting worse.

He gets diagnosed with the coronavirus, holding a super spreading event at the White House, a coronavirus he is downplayed, it would be like back in 1938 of Neville Chamberlain it -- Neville Chamberlain, in addition to a piece in the Germans also got held captive.

So the big thing is the big thing. And I think that's going to be the big issue all the way in. And the other thing I'd say is, you know, Trump not wearing a mask when he came back. These videos he's putting out which are basically, you know, going to cause people to die. I assume those are going to be a big part of the debate, if it happens next week in Florida, and Joe Biden really, really needs to prosecute that case against Trump.

WILLIAMS: Mike Murphy, do you agree with me that Trump says very little by accident, and we can usually tell when he rolls out what will later become the stuff of repetition, his talking points. When he got back from the hospital, he looked at the camera and said maybe I'm immune. Maybe not today, he knowing it was a therapeutic. He claimed his medicine regimen was chosen by him. And he called it a cure, something tells me we're going to hear that a lot.

MURPHY: Oh, totally. I mean, his dream for this election and spend this four weeks is that he can declare the COVID-19 pandemic over. Doctor Trump is now prescribed a miracle cure for everyone and rotate to the economy. The economy tonight is where Pence actually scored a little bit on Harris. So they would like the whole campaign to be about that. But I don't think the virus takes orders from the president despite whatever Superman fantasy he was working on the balcony the other night. So it's definitely the intent though, and it's definitely what they're trying to do.

Now I'll tell you just one out of the of the debate. Somebody who might need a cure tomorrow is Mike Pence and not for COVID-19. Our friends over at Fox tonight we're declaring why can't Trump debate as well as Pence, no chillier and scarier words have ever been spoken if you're the Vice President, because the one thing Donald Trump, as we all know, can't stand is anybody to upstage him. So, I think it could be a long week just for Donald Trump in the inside game now at the White House.

WILLIAMS: David Plouffe as a leading Democrat, what worries you about impediments to the vote? Are you watching individual states? Are you watching individuals? Obviously, I think the number is about 5 million of us have voted early.

PLOUFFE: Well, Brian, a good campaign where he's about everything. Now we shouldn't be dishonest about the race. You know, Joe Biden's lead is significant. It's stable. He's got leads in probably eight to 10 battleground states. He, depending on the combination may only need to win two of them. But yes, the question is, can you get people all the way through the funnel? People who say they're going to register where they're still registration deadlines, open. People who get their absentee ballot, are they going to make a mistake? If they go to vote early and we saw in Arizona today, long lines, are people making a plan to stay in line? Are they making a plan for election day.

So the actual execution of turning professed support into vote that is what a campaign is all about. Joe Biden's in a good position where I think he's got enough support to win the presidency can materialize in both.

But again, Brian, you mentioned over 5 million Americans voted that number will be grow every day. Election Day is five days earlier this year than it was in 2016. So just simple mathematics, when you're losing a race by anywhere from six to 10 points, and people are voting, it means you have to overperform in the back end, it just makes your degree of difficulty harder.

From the Biden campaign, my biggest concern right now is I just want to make sure that I'm not losing votes, either through mistakes, or from people who ultimately don't turn out and I do think Trump's going to get as turnout. That's the one thing I've been sure about this entire time. I don't think that's enough to win particularly given his performance where I think he's kind of repelled, swinging undecided voters, particularly women, but that's the biggest concern right now. And it's why you can't rest easy for the Biden campaign.

WILLIAMS: Hey, Mike Murphy, I'm old enough to remember the days before Russia played an active role in our domestic presidential elections. It was bracing tonight to hear Nicole Wallace forthrightly and matter of factly say that, look, the people she's been talking to in the Republican Party, some boldface names are preparing for Trump's loss. And she almost added as an aside, unless you know, Putin pulls a rabbit out of a hat unless the Russians give him an assist.

How much do you buy into the echoes of 2016 theory on our broadcast last night, we realized Biden's national lead is exactly what Hillary's was at this time in 2016.

MURPHY: Well, I think Biden is in better position than Hillary, because Donald Trump is now the incumbent, he's a known quantity. The people know what they got, and they've had enough, which is why the polling lead is so strong. I think the Russians will try to interfere with the election. And it's amazing to me that we as a country haven't responded stronger. But that's Donald Trump with the bromance with the dictator Putin.

I do believe our system is strong enough to resist it. I'm not particularly worried about that. I am worried about a late count in some of these states that don't start counting absentee ballots to election day. And having that period of confusion that both the Russians with social media and other destabilizing techniques and the president with, you know, roid rage, malice could interfere with. So I'm concerned about that.

But the Russian thing I don't think they have enough torque to change the outcome of the election. But Nicolle is right by the way, we're -- I hear it too. And the Republican Party, it's dawned on them that the ship is going down. So people are very focused on where the life preservers are right now.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it's been said by smarter people than me that the month of November, December, January may be the most consequential for democracy since we've been a democracy. David Plouffe, Mike Murphy, two gentlemen, we call on with regularity. Thank you both for staying up with us tonight.

Coming up after another break in our coverage Kamala Harris, Chief of Staff, Karine Jean-Pierre joins us when our special coverage continues.

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HARRIS: Last week, the President of the United States took a debate stage in front of 70 million Americans and refused to condemn white supremacist. And it wasn't like he didn't have a chance. He didn't do it and then he doubled down. And then he said when pressed stand back, stand by.

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WILLIAMS: Before tonight's debate, Joe Biden's team said they expected lies and distortions from the vice president. That's true of candidates before any debate but it takes on new meaning during this particular election. So how do Democrats think Senator Kamala Harris did tonight?

Here to talk about it Karine Jean-Pierre, frequent guest of ours campaign chief of staff to vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris, Senior Advisor to the Biden campaign at large. Karine, what's the talk backstage?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, CAMPAIGN CHIEF OF STAFF TO KAMALA HARRIS:: Well, first of all, it's great to see, Brian. Look, tonight, we couldn't be prouder, honestly, of Senator Harris, she, on this historic night, let's not forget that she gave a really clear and just precise, powerful case to why we need change in presidential leadership. In a moment where the stakes could not be higher, or more at stake, really, for the American people, she came forth and laid the case and gave and gave the American people a plan, a vision, a different direction of what a Biden Harris administration would look like.

We have to remember, we are currently going through a pandemic, one of the worst pandemics in a generation, you have people who are clearly dying to more than 210,000 Americans have lost their lives in this country, we have an economic downturn. And she laid out what that administration, a Biden-Harris administration would do to turn that around to stop to stop and fight the COVID-19 that we're dealing with right now.

And so and she was able to do that, by cutting through the noise, Brian, cutting through the lies, cutting through the distortion, as you just said, and really being very clear and precise. And as your last panel mentioned, millions of voters or people have voted already. And we are people are early voting and to be able to do that to share your message to put forth a message. And she didn't make it about herself. She didn't make it about Joe Biden. She made it about the American people.

WILLIAMS: It did seem to a lot of people watching that almost a generational difference in age and outlook and certainly the gender difference. Were striking. And I presume you're going to say that was not the home team on the part of the Democrats doing that. That was the visitor's team as you view it of Mike Pence at all.

JEAN-PIERRE: Yes, look, Mike Pence, he, you know, he did what he normally does as we just talked about. He distorted, he lied. But another thing that he did is he, you know, he wouldn't answer the questions and he did that by interrupting and not respecting the two women on the stay -- on the debate stage tonight, and so that is not surprising.

Look what we saw from Donald Trump last week. I mean, this administration the last four years, when it comes to -- when it comes to women, when it comes to people of color, there's been just such a just disrespect, a lack of respect. But you know what? That's not what we're, you know, what we're pushing here. The point of tonight is she made the case to the American people. She laid out the vision for what a Biden-Harris administration would look like. And it was it was clear, it was precise, and it was powerful. And also clearly, you know, she made history which we have to also acknowledge, we so -- we just could not be proud of, Brian.

WILLIAMS: Karine Jean-Pierre, in keeping with the rules of tonight's venue, wearing a mask at the height of a pandemic, still out of control across our country. Great to see you. Thank you very much at the end of a long day for sparing some time with us.

Jean-Pierre: Thank you so much Brian.

WILLIAMS: There is much more ahead of our special coverage of THE 11TH HOUR the post-debate coverage between these two candidates, their first and only debate. Stay with us at the top of the hour.

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MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm just extremely grateful, and was more than a little moved by the broad and bipartisan support. And, Senator, I want to thank you and Joe Biden for your expressions, genuine concern. And I also want to congratulate you, as I did on that phone call on this historic nature of your nomination.

HARRIS: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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