Summary
President Donald Trump was the most improved performer at Thursday's debate, but a panel of debate experts said Joe Biden was more effective with his arguments. Biden and Trump spar over COVID-19 response. President Donald Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden didn't pull punches in their final debate. Trump and Biden answered questions and challenged each other about the coronavirus pandemic, the economy and foreign interference in the election, as well as each other's finances.
Transcript
BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: With thanks to my friends Rachel, Nicole and Joy. Thank you all so much.
And good evening. Once again, welcome to a special expanded debate night edition of the 11th Hour. Get comfortable, we'll be at this for the next two hours. Day 1,372 of the Trump administration. Dozen days remain until the election. And now the final debate of this cycle is history.
Tonight's debate was nowhere near as contentious as the first. Thanks to our colleague, Kristen Welker, a lot of ground was covered tonight, from the economy, to where they started at the pandemic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We can't close up our nation. We have to open our school, and we can't close up our nation or you're not going to have a nation.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: People are learning to die with it. You folks home who have an empty chair at the kitchen table this morning, that man or wife going to bed tonight and reaching over to try to touch their -- out of habit where their wife or husband was is gone. Learning to live with it? Come on. We're dying with it because he's never said. See, you said, it's dangerous. When's the last time? Is it really dangerous still? Are we dangerous? You tell the people it's dangerous now. What should they do about the danger? And you say, I take no responsibility.
TRUMP: I take full responsibility. It's not my fault that he came here. It's China's fault. And you know what, it's not Joe's fault that he came here either. It's China's fault. They kept it from going into the rest of China for the most part, but they didn't keep it from coming out to the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: And as expected, the President repeatedly tried to bring up issues related to Biden but more often Hunter Biden than his opponent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Character of the country is on the ballot. Our characters in the ballot look at us closely.
KRISTEN WELKER, DEBATE MODERATOR: Let me ask some --
TRUMP: Excuse me.
WELKER: Please, please respond and then we'll going to have follow-up question.
TRUMP: If this stuff is true about Russia, Ukraine, China, other countries, Iraq. If this is true, then he's a corrupt politician.
WELKER: All right.
TRUMP: So don't give me the stuff about how you're this innocent baby. Joe, that calling you a corrupt politician --
BIDEN: Nobody's calling me --
TRUMP: They're calling it the laptop from hell.
WELKER: President Trump, I want to stay on the issue of race. We're talking about the issue--
TRUMP: -- the laptop from hell.
BIDEN: There are 50 former National Intelligence folks who said that what this he's accusing me of is a Russian plan. They have said that this is has all the care for five former heads of the CIA. Both parties say what he's saying is a bunch of garbage. Nobody believes it, except them, his and his good friend, Rudy Giuliani.
TRUMP: You mean the laptop is now another Russia, Russia, Russia hoax? You got to be kidding me--
BIDEN: That's exactly what was told.
TRUMP: This is where he's going. The laptop is Russia, Russia, Russia?
WELKER: Gentlemen, I want to stay on the issue of race, OK.
TRUMP: You have to be kidding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Indeed, the issue of race in our country was also front and center tonight and Biden wasted no time confronting the President over his previous statements.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we've had in modern history. He pours fuel on every single racist fire. Every single one started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying is getting rid of those Mexican rapists. He has moved around and made everything worse across the board. He says to the about the poor boys. Last time we were on stage here, he said, I told him to stand down and stand ready. Come on. This guy is a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn.
WELKER: President Trump, I'm going to give you 10 seconds to respond. And then I have a follow-up question.
TRUMP: No, you made a reference to Abraham Lincoln. Where did that come in? I mean --
BIDEN: You said you're Abraham Lincoln.
TRUMP: No, no, where did that -- No, no.
BIDEN: You said --
TRUMP: I said, not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I've done for the Black community.
BIDEN: And I'm saying --
TRUMP: I didn't say, I'm Abraham Lincoln, I said, not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I've done for the Black community.
Now, you have done nothing other than the Crime Bill, which put --
BIDEN: Oh, God.
TRUMP: Tens of thousands of Black men, mostly, in jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Here for our leadoff discussion on this Thursday debate night Claire McCaskill, former Democratic Senator from the great state of Missouri, our own Lawrence O'Donnell, from the Bay State of Massachusetts, host of the 10 p.m. Eastern hour on this network, Eugene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize-winning Columnist for The Washington Post and David Plouffe, former Obama Campaign Manager, Senior Advisor to the former president. He's also on the board of directors of the Obama Foundation, his latest work, A Citizen's Guide to Beating Donald Trump.
I have never looked forward to seeing your faces this much before we get to celebrate the end of the last presidential debates. Clair, you first, what did we just witness?
CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI FORMER U.S. SENATOR: Well, I think it's really interesting that people think Trump did so well tonight. But that is in context. I mean, he was a train wreck last time. This time, he was just a moving, a slow moving manufacturer of why after lie after lie after lie.
And I do think Joe Biden, once again, showed why the suburban women are drawn his candidacy. He talked about how you unite the red states and the blue states and how he wanted to be a president for everyone.
And importantly, he talked about their families instead of attacking each other's families, he -- and when he did that, I thought it was really telling that Trump made fun of him about it. And people notice things like that. I don't think this debate moved the needle much one way or the other, except I don't think that Biden lost any ground tonight. He was very strong tonight.
WILLIAMS: Lawrence O'Donnell, same question.
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Well, in a debate like this, I'm just looking for where did the conversion come? Where was the conversion moment for a voter who was not voting for Donald Trump going into this debate? What would convert them Donald Trump's the one who has to do that? He's the one who's behind. I don't see where that happened.
Joe Biden's message was a recurring version of, you know who I am. You know who he is. He actually said that a couple of times. And each time, it carried an awful lot of import. It was a character statement. Joe Biden also filled the space with policy where it was supposed to be filled. But he was really making that character argument for himself versus the guy who was standing next to the lies have been cataloged and they will be Donald Trump's lie that he always gets away with, never gets called on really is the tariffs lie. And it's one of my sticking points because I used to work on this policy in the United States Senate. The American people pay American tariffs. When this president slaps tariffs on China, no one in China pays anything of those tariffs. It's all paid by us. And then the compensation for the people, the farmers suffering from that is also paid by us through taxation of us transfers to farmers. He gets away with it.
And when Donald Trump says, he's the greatest president since Abraham Lincoln. I wish someone would mention LBJ, someone would mentioned Lyndon Johnson signing on the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act and what Donald Trump and his party have tried to do to the Voting Rights Act and have successfully done and trying to take a hatchet to it.
And in my limited experience in this world, I have to say, every time I've ever heard someone say, I am the least -- racist person in this room, it has always been the most racist person in the room.
WILLIAMS: Lawrence about LBJ, I've spent a lot of time out at the LBJ Library in Austin, Texas every time you're right. Every time he says that, I think of members of the Johnson family, I think of the museum director, all the historians who have pieced together the life and tale of that former president.
Eugene, same question.
EUGENE ROBINSON, THE WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Well, you know, I think those of us who watch these debates for a living are the only ones who grade candidates on curves. And so we're -- I think the only ones who might remember the first debate and say, well, Trump was completely unhinged during that debate, and he was less than emptier, therefore he did better. I don't think voters look at it that way. I think those who tried to actually listen to what the candidates were saying. And by the way, they weren't able to do that this time, thanks to Kristen Welker, who won the debate, right? Who clearly won over both Trump and Biden.
So people got a chance to hear these two candidates. And I think they heard who these two men are, and what they would be like this president and I think it was essentially a status quo debate. I don't think Donald Trump moved the needle, particularly in his favor, which he would have certainly wanted to do. I think arguably, Joe Biden may have gained a bit in the debate, but in any event, if it was a tie, a tie goes to Biden because he's ahead.
WILLIAMS: David Plouffe, while never spoken out loud empathy was, as they say on the ballot tonight late in the debate, the environmental question about American families, mostly families of color who are forced to live next to petrochemical and other similar facilities and grow up without environmental risk, the President quite cavalierly reminded them how much money they're making and how they've profited under a Trump presidency.
DAVID PLOUFFE, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, that's right, Brian, I mean, during the COVID section, which I was think was the most important part of the debate, family separation, where Trump showed no remorse about these kids being separated from their families. And then, the issue you just talked about around minority families living in the shadow of pollution and the health effects there.
Biden showed empathy around. And at the end of the day, I agree with everyone that's spoken so far. Is there anybody in America and I mean, is anybody in America, a senior down in Florida who plans to vote for Joe Biden in-person in early vote next week, an undecided voter who might be leaning Biden says, you know what, give me four more years of Trump give me four more years of that guy.
And I thought the most passion he showed in the whole debate was when he was haranguing Joe Biden about his family. It wasn't about COVID, and all the deaths. It wasn't about the kids separated from their parents. It wasn't about people whose health is at risk because of pollution, it was about that. So the notion that somehow just because he wasn't a unreleased rabid dog tonight, although by the way, you could see in the last half of the debate, he was moving more in that direction.
You know, Joe Biden's leading, and it worse for him. I think, it's status quo. But I agree with Eugene, he might have even done himself some good and he doesn't have much more room to grow. But to the extent he does, I think he might have accelerated that movement tonight.
WILLIAMS: And Eugene, as I work my way back down our panel, I mentioned this in the first summation, a lot of his talking points. I mean, I watch all the Trump rallies because I do so for a living and it's part of our job. A lot of what he was citing from Rudy Giuliani's laptop caper was very specific stuff that you have to already be in that media bubble, and following closely to have followed along with what the President was referencing tonight.
ROBINSON: Yeah, it was impossibly arcane. I mean, I have I've tried to keep up with these, these allegations, such as they are, and I got lost in at various times. We didn't know exactly what it was talking about. I think people who said, for most of or if not all the day, glued to Fox News. You know, open up their laptops and read Breitbart all day.
Those people probably followed along. Those people are pretty voting for Donald Trump. But they probably understood, I think the vast majority of the television audience had just had no clue what he was talking about. And I thought Joe Biden's answers there, because they were so simple and direct. They were just, that's not true. You know, you know who I am. They were just very basic, simple answers that I think people could understand, especially given how arcane the stuff Trump was talking about, must have struck most people. It was just, it was it was kind of weird, and I thought he would have a better sort of a better choreographed attack on the Hunter Biden stuff, if he would -- if he was intending to bring it up, and he did not.
WILLIAMS: And Lawrence, speaking of choreography, and given your past in politics, before media, there was a moment where Donald Trump talking about the Biden family, siblings and sons of Joe Biden, painted them as money hungry, I think he said, they were sucking up money like a vacuum cleaner. Clearly, that was the door opening. If Joe Biden was going to go there on Trump family members, most of them were seated in front of them at the venue tonight. And I have to assume just as clearly, Joe Biden didn't want to go there.
O'DONNELL: Yeah, and I think the whole country watched him make that decision to take that high road. Because it is many, many, many more people know that the president's daughter, while working in the federal government, did business with China and got permits to do business in China, through the Chinese government.
And so people at home are sitting there knowing they actually know what the ammunition is for Joe Biden to throw in this moment. And because of that, because there's so much fluency on it, he doesn't have to do it and people are -- knew what they were watching. They saw exactly what they're watching. The other part of that is, Joe Biden doesn't want to prolong that section of the discussion. He'd rather get back to the minimum wage with Donald Trump challenging him on the minimum wage. And I just wish, I just wish, I just wish Joe Biden had asked Donald Trump, what the minimum wage is. I mean, you know, he has no idea what the federal minimum wage is. And he kept saying Donald Trump kept saying, it should be up to the states. And again, Donald Trump has no idea that the minimum wage is up to the state. So that's why California is $12. And the federal minimum basic wage is 725. That's why New York, it's $11 and 80 cents on its way up a ramp over time to $15. And so Joe Biden would prefer to be talking to minimum wage workers about their minimum wage future, then going on about the President's kids, and I think everybody is going to is going to recognize the Joe Biden avoided that, took that pass and just decided, Nope, I'm not going to go after the President's kids.
WILLIAMS: That's also why you ask an incumbent senator from Iowa, the breakeven price on a bushel of soybeans.
Hey, Claire, speaking of the middle of the country, I am curious about your perspective on this election season thus far, with these two caveats a dozen days yet to go, that's the equivalent of 12 years on the old timescale. And we have something close to 15 million votes in, which is obviously, all new territory for our country. What's your comfort level, as you look at this coming presidential election?
MCCASKILL: Well, I will never be comfortable until a winner is declared. And so I think this is one of these situations because of what happened four years ago, that all of us are very cautious about being confident.
Having said that, one of the reasons I think that Joe Biden would never lose ground in a debate with Donald Trump is because this country knows that Donald Trump is not an honest guy. They know that.
Now, some are overlooking it and saying, oh, he just exaggerates. And then they love him. That's about 35% of the country. But -- and then there's another 5% or 6% that love the tax cuts, because they're very rich, or they love the lack of regulation. But for most Americans, they know this is not an honest president. And that's why all of his attacks and smears on Joe Biden are not working. And they didn't work tonight. They won't work tonight.
I feel pretty good. I mean, I see the numbers and I look at them, and his approval rating is still in the low 40s. He's got a nine to 10 point margin right now nationally, and I think if he just keeps talking about health care, and keeps talking about the ACA, and keeps talking about COVID and the mismanagement, Joe Biden will be president.
WILLIAMS: On that note, and I'd like to know a closing note when I hear one, our thanks to Senator Claire McCaskill, to Lawrence O'Donnell, Eugene Robinson, David Plouffe, greatly appreciate your instant reaction following this last debate tonight.
More debate reaction from the Mayor of Atlanta when we come back. The special edition of the 11th Hour is just getting underway on this Thursday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It will go away and as I say, we're rounding the turn, we're rounding the corner. It's going away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Let's talk more about what we just witnessed tonight. And to do that I am joined by the democratic Mayor of the City of Atlanta, Georgia, Keisha Lance Bottoms, she was among the Biden families' guests at the debate tonight. Mayor, first of all, your reaction to what you witnessed.
MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS, (D) ATLANTA: Well, thank you for having me. I thought that Joe Biden did a fantastic job in showing the American people why he should be President of the United States why he is the person who we need to be President of the United States which struck me Brian even on the first question, when asked about the coronavirus, President Trump couldn't even speak of people. He spoke of models. And what I saw from Joe Biden tonight was someone who showed empathy. Someone who understands where we are in America understands that many of us may not agree on all things. But certainly it's up to our president to unite us and not divide us. And I was honored and proud to be with him this evening.
WILLIAMS: Let's go deeper on the virus. And I know your personal story, it visited the bottoms household you and your husband both had it. Your husband's symptoms were more severe and lingering. As you and I have discussed on this broadcast. You're now responsible for the health and safety of the people in the city of Atlanta. So sitting there, knowing all that with your personal experience, when you hear the incumbent President say and here are the quotes, "It will go away. We're rounding the corner. It is going away. We're learning to live with it." How do you react?
BOTTOMS: This is someone who still didn't even understand what this virus means to families across America. He talked about his son having the virus and he was OK. Well, they were lucky because in our family, my son had the virus gave it to my husband and I and my husband is now a long color with lingering symptoms and there's so many other families across this country that have lost children, that children have brought it into their household and the parents haven't survived. There's a young man in Georgia who's lost both his parents to COVID-19. And so in the midst of where we are as a country, if as the President of the United States, you still don't have a basic comprehension of how this virus is transmitted, what it's doing to families across this country, if you don't realize that now, you never will, and it's not going to get better, it is only going to get worse under Donald Trump.
WILLIAMS: Final question, and I have to say this, all of us who are friends and colleagues with Kristen Welker are mighty proud at the job she did tonight. She was really, her presence was game changing, in my view, and thanks in large part to her stewardship over the conversations and the questions. We had some rare topics come up tonight, at least in the context of presidential debates, things like environmental justice, and a deeper dive on things like criminal justice than we usually get to hear.
BOTTOMS: And I thought that she did a fantastic job tonight. It was great watching her moderate this debate, but even to go deeper in questions on racial justice. And when I heard Joe Biden describe in detail the experience it so many African American families have when he talked about there not being a difference. When you're in a hoodie, or when you make $300,000 a year, I thought about my husband, who's been profiled in a store for shoplifting. I thought about my son, my 18 year old son, my sons, my 18 year old son, who drives out of my driveway every day and I pray over him every time he leaves my house. That's the experience that African Americans are having in this country. That's experience that Joe Biden was able to speak about in detail because he listens, and he cares.
Donald Trump still does not get it. And with the vibrational reckoning that we are having in this country, the fact that he can't even engage in a coherent conversation about what it means to be black in America, again, as another reminder that he should not be the president of the United States.
WILLIAMS: Ladies and gentlemen, watching her mask is unambiguous, and it tells the message and that is, vote.12 days from now, if you haven't already in the upcoming presidential election. We wish you and your family the very best Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms of Atlanta, Georgia. Thank you for staying and hanging out with us tonight. We appreciate it.
BOTTOMS: Thank you for having me.
WILLIAMS: A fact check on tonight's debate, no shortage of work for our friend. And in House Counsel, Ari Melber, host of the 6 p.m. Eastern hour on this network also happens to be our Chief Legal Correspondent. So, it's kind of in his title. But Ari, I was thinking of you during the event, not knowing quite where I'd start if I were you. But go ahead.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Thank you, Brian. Good to be with you. There was more to start with, as you say, because this was quite frankly, a more audible debate. There was more back and forth between the candidates whenever you thought of it. And a big thing we want to start with on policy and law, which some of our anchors have touched on already, is that exchange about child separation and immigration.
Basically, the President was trying to imply that the previous administration where, of course, Joe Biden's vice president had the same or a similar policy. And that's not true. We'll put some of the data up here regarding child separation.
Under the Trump administration, you have this 3000 children separated from their parents, as mentioned 545 children of parents who are still essentially at large as far as the U.S. government's concerned. As for what the Obama ministration did, they had family detention centers. They had harsh exportation policies, some of which were controversial, but a key distinction here and what makes Trump's claim false. They did not as policy, target families for separation.
Then there was of course the discussion of COVID, Brian, and you and Rachel and others have touched on this. We now put together an airing this for the first time. The ultimate fact check of Donald Trump because it's his own administration, CDC director who contradicts what Trump tried to claim tonight on vaccines. We'll let people see it for themselves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have a vaccine that's coming. It's ready. It's going to be announced within weeks and it's going to be delivered.
ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: If you're asking me, when is it going to be generally available to the American public? I think we're probably looking at third -- late second quarter, third quarter 2021.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That is about as crisp a fact check as you can get Dr. Robert Redfield, who is a virologist who runs the CDC but again, serves in Trump's administration pushing that projected date way pass out with the president claim.
Third and final factcheck tonight, Brian, and an important one, on the risks posed by COVID, how you apportion the blame that may be a political debate, but how this disease is virus affects people. Well, President trying to claim 99 percent of young adults don't have any problems. That's just not the case about one out of 5, 20 percent need intensive care, one of the 10 need ventilators, we know how serious that is. And tragically over two and a half percent die even in that younger age group. Yes, it is not as dangerous as the main at risk group of seniors. But it is by no means a walk in the park, Brian.
WILLIAMS: Strangest moment of the night remains when Trump accused Biden of selling pillows and sheets. Ari Melber, thank you for taking a whack with OSI that some of the behemoth facts that needed checking.
Another break for us, coming up, James Carville, Mike Murphy on tonight's highlights and lowlights when our special edition of the 11th hour continues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: We're about to go into a dark winter, a dark winter, and he has no clear plan.
TRUMP: We have a dark winter and at all. We're opening up our country. We've learned and studied and understand the disease which we didn't at the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I'm running as a proud Democrat but I'm going to be an American president. I don't see red states and blue states, what I see is American, United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: Two of our professionals are back with us tonight to talk about what it was we witnessed this evening James Carville, veteran democratic strategist who rose to national fame with the Clinton presidential campaign who is these days co-host of the 2020 Politics War Room podcast, and Mike Murphy, Republican strategist, co-director of the Center for the Political Future at the University of Southern California. Mike to you first I saw on social media tonight. You said something akin to at the end of the night, nothing changes. Is that indeed your position?
MIKE MURPHY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes, I think if anything Biden might have inched ahead. Biden had a good debate. I think his best debate so far, he was tight. He wasn't on message and he got the kind of contrast he's looking for with Trump that he's the uniter, he has empathy. He has a plan. He is a president.
Well, well, Donald Trump kind of downshifted from maniacal Trump, you know, in the last debate, do dare I say it low energy Trump tonight. It was still kind of -- Trump never really connected on anything. I mean, he got a few jabs on Biden, but nothing that will give him the traction he needs. I mean, Trump needs to understand that most Americans think a Hunter is a ceiling fan. And this kind of inside rambling about stuff nobody understands.
Biden was talking about the issues people care about. So if you're Trump, if you're behind, and you're in trouble, you need a huge winning debate. And well, he got a slight tone shift. I don't think he got what he needed all the night to change the race.
WILLIAMS: Mike, did you agree with me on some of the Trump references you would have to be on a steady drip of Fox News, OEN and Mark Levin to know some of those references were to these alleged e-mails from the alleged laptop from formerly known as America's Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
MURPHY: Yes, it's like showing up two hours into a model railroad convention. And unless you know what, and oh, gay jar, and you know, it was just, it was again, Trump was in that bubble. He's in making references that were that sounded average voters, I think like almost incoherence.
So, you know, for a guy who desperately needs traction and needs to make the race about the economy. Instead, it was making the 44 percent. He's got at least a half of it. That's turned into Fox a lot very, very happy by, you know, making these oblique references. I think, unlike a lot of other people, were scratching their heads and listening to Biden talk about actual concerns.
WILLIAMS: Well, there go my chances of ever attending a model railroad convention. James Carville, same question, what did you make up tonight?
JAMES CARVILLE, VETERAN DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, first of all, that the clip that you showed people get these Tao groups, and that was the high point when Biden talked about being present, America, so I'm glad to chance to see that clip.
On the Hunter Biden stuff, I watch for my job, I look at it as I got to watch Fox before the debate. So that video was coming in a minute all over this all the time. And Trump bought it up. And within 40 seconds, Biden had shifted the conversation to Trump's tax, tax returns. I think it was some really good footwork, and I suspect you take practice that and beat our minds, right? It's an arcane thing. Most people don't know about it. And if they actually know about it, they probably die laughing.
But Biden my thought was actually very skillful in getting this -- getting out of that subject into the subject of Trump's tax returns. So I if I'm the Fox people, I got to be a little bit disappointed, because they will -- they were really, really investing a lot into this story. I guess you'd call it open storage, right, work. That was a good moment.
I kind of agree with Mark. I don't think this was a tie. Yes, I think, you know, the tie would be a win. I think Biden had a good debate. And I think that Biden had a good debate season. You know, a lot of people were saying by and we discussed this on this show what maybe Trump shouldn't debate he should, I mean, Biden shouldn't and was thought he should. And I think Biden was helped by these debates. It solidified already good leaders resolved of.
WILLIAMS: Now, James, I've been thinking about you because the last time you were on our fair broadcast, you made a lot of Democrats nervous when you predicted maybe even 10:30 Eastern Time on election night, we would have an early call and an early night. Do you still contend that could happen and what do you make of what you've seen out there?
CARVILLE: I do think, I do think. Yes, I think we're going to have a good idea but fairly early on election night. Look, you know, the problem is President Obama said yesterday. I'm just unhappy when, he's got to win by more than just a little bit. And right now I honestly think we're on track to do that. I thought that the whole time, but you know, I can said when the facts change I'll change my mind (INAUDIBLE) facts have changed very much in the last six, eight weeks or so.
WILLIAMS: Mike Murphy, the president --
MURPHY: Yes, I agree with James --
WILLIAMS: -- hold a -- go ahead.
MURPHY: Oh, no, just you know, Florida in particular, Biden has a small but steady lead there. And Florida count or absentees as they come in. So there's going to be none of this four day delay. And if you don't win Florida, if you're Republican, you're done. So we're going to know Florida pretty quick, it is likely. And if it goes the way, I think it would tomorrow, the election or tomorrow. You know, the four-day count in Wisconsin won't be that important. It'll be real trouble for Donald Trump. But you know, we got 12 days left. So the campaigns have to execute and turn out.
WILLIAMS: Well, Mike, let me ask you this does the idea that notion we have 50 million votes in, in already cast.
MURPHY: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Does that change what guys like you have come up learning and teaching about electoral politics?
MURPHY: Yes, you know, Election Day is now 10 days long or longer. So, you know, a lot of that vote that's coming in some of its pushed back by fear of the coronavirus on election day or the week before early vote. And others are enthusiastic voters of both parties so I suspect more Democrats who can hardly wait to race their ballot in.
But yes, it means for Trump that to get anything going every day. Five percent of the electorate or so is voting and he loses the opportunity of those people. So, you know, the -- he's really dealing with a time clock and tonight was the last rail opportunity to grab the race. And if anybody grabbed it tonight, it was Biden, who I think might have pushed himself forward a little more. So yes, that early vote things a huge factor.
WILLIAMS: James, I'm going to play for you a bit of tonight's debate. Some of the questions were kind of unintended measurements of empathy, and especially this portion, here is Donald Trump on immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Now, they cannot find over 500 of sets of those parents, and those kids are alone, nowhere to go, nowhere to go. It's criminal. It's criminal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me ask you about --
TRUMP: Let me say this. They went down. We brought reporters, everything - they are so well taken care of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: So James, obviously the President there at the end, how well -- well, remarks like that just land in their respective buckets.
CARVILLE: First of all, you hit the download daily double. Because that was the blow point. And there's not conclusive and it was not a huge sample. But that was the moment where Trump's lines get the lowest. And I saw that John (ph) and Nicolle and Rachel, were talking about that early. And I don't have to be a genius to say this. Women have a -- I do too but I'm not a woman, a visceral reaction to children being separated from their parents. That's almost a universal reaction that you feel.
And he looked very cavalier and callous about it and by look very humane. And I think the moderator did a good job but exposing that in the two candidates and drawing that distinction. That's what they should do. And I think she did do a wonderful job tonight. I agree with it. There's no problem of her.
WILLIAMS: And I thought Nicolle put up beautifully when she said to her fellow parents, any of us who have been separated by our from our children for two minutes in a grocery store and who among us has not had that fright. Her point, obviously, that the larger matter was just something that minor what that does to your nervous system. Imagine 500 plus sets of parents being unlinked with their children.
Hey, Mike, I've got a question for you. The Wall Street Journal is out tonight. So the President had this special guest tonight, a guy by the name of Bobulinski. And I'll not muck this up any further. I'll read the Wall Street Journal story, an ex-business partner of hunter Biden in a news conference organized by the Trump campaign alleged that former Vice President Joe Biden was part of discussions around his son's efforts to form an investment venture with a Chinese oil company. Biden campaign denied Joe Biden had any involvement with the venture nor stood to gain by it.
In a statement to reporters Thursday, Tony Bobulinski said that in 2017 Hunter consulted his father about a planned venture with a Chinese oil company. They go on to say it never got off the ground and that sentence you see on your screen. Corporate records reviewed by the Wall Street Journal show no role for Joe Biden. Is that going to put an end to that part of this plotline, Mike?
MURPHY: Yes, I think so. It's the kind of late crazy stuff a campaign in trouble does. I mean, there's no corroboration of any of this, they might want to send a few reporters to go find the shady Chinese bankers who set up Trump's secret account. Maybe they know something about the underground over there, and Trump can point them in the right direction. But this thing seems to be very thin to me.
And again, this stuff that people right now are wondering when they're going to get their small businesses open, when they're going to be able to visit the grandparents because of COVID-19. And what the same plan is and, you know, some crazy sci-fi tale about, you know, Hunter Biden and Martians and Chinese and stuff that not seems to be no real credible source or than Bobulinski. And all we know about him is he's in the pocket of the Trump campaign, which is not exactly a high lantern of ethical behavior. You know, I think that one's the spitball off a battleship.
Trump's got to start moving the needle on issues people care about. And as we saw tonight, he just doesn't have a lot of ammo on that. He's on the defense on COVID, immigration policy, you know, just one scandal one bongo after the other, so we just doesn't have a grip. So we're down to the sideshow stuff now, in the closing days.
WILLIAMS: And James, you have spoke passionately on our broadcast about voter suppression, I note that your ancestral neighbors in the state of Georgia have done nothing to shake their hard earned reputation in the area of voter suppression. It's been a rough cycle in, in Georgia for a lot of folks just trying to cast a vote.
CARVILLE: It is, but I've got friends there. And just people -- when you tell people that can't vote, you try to stop them. You just want to make them -- they want to vote more. They just did it really -- it fires them up. And the turnout numbers now that they're not being terribly successful from the turnout numbers that I will get those getting kind of midday today in these collar counties around Atlanta, like Burnett and Cobb and places like that. It looks very strong, and they putting real effort behind this.
There's so much you can do. And the people are reacting very, very strongly to this. And we're going to see the turnout numbers are going to be exceedingly high than I was giving me today, but nothing sharp, breathtaking. And we're going to continue to see that. I have no doubt about that. And to be fair to turnout to be harnessed in rural areas and more Republican areas but the suburban and urban turnout, in particular the Atlanta Metro is going to be off the charts.
WILLIAMS: Pleasure to be able to talk to you gentlemen at regular intervals, James Carville, Mike Murphy has been our guest tonight. Thank you both very much.
And coming up, reaction from the Biden surrogate campaign, Simone Sanders will be joining us when this special edition of the 11th hour continues.
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BIDEN: I felt good about it. And I thought the moderator did a great job of making it run smoothly. And so it was much, much more rational debate than the first. Got a chance to speak the American public.
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WILLIAMS: Joe Biden about to board his motorcade and leaves the venue in Nashville. We are pleased to welcome back to our broadcast Symone Sanders, Senior Adviser to the Joe Biden campaign. Symone to start with, we're, I think correctly proud of our friend and colleague Kristen Welker around here tonight as we always are.
And for starters, I assume you were happy that there were questions on topics that don't usually get a thorough national airing of detailed questions on criminal justice, detailed questions on Black Lives Matter, detailed questions on economic -- I mean, environmental justice that we usually never hear.
SYMONE SANDERS, JOE BIDEN CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Kristen Welker did a great job. Kudos to her. If I may say representation matters. And I think for a lot of black and brown girls all across this country. Tonight, they were pleased to see Kristen Welker sitting in that seat.
Let me say though, you know, Kristen Welker did something else tonight. She gave the president multiple opportunities to articulate his plan and his vision for the future multiple opportunities to talk about his plan to combat COVID-19. And tonight, we got nothing from the president.
On the contrary, Joe Biden spoke directly to the American people. He summed up really how he viewed this conversation in this race and saying it's not about my family or his family, referring to the President's family. It's about your family, the American people. And I think that's why tonight Joe Biden resoundingly won that debate. In our eyes it wasn't close. It wasn't not even by a little bit. This was a dramatic and resounding win by Vice President Biden tonight.
WILLIAMS: I mentioned this point earlier in our coverage, I have to presume at that moment where Donald Trump accused the Biden family writ large, the former vice president's siblings and children of vacuuming up money of using his vice presidency as a business opportunity at that moment. I have to believe your candidate had a choice to counter personal about the children of the presidency that in front of him or not, and he chose the latter. Am I Bartley near correct?
SANDERS: Absolutely. I mean, that attacking other people's children, other folks as families is not who Joe Biden, it runs counter to everything he believes. And as he stated in the debates, and this isn't about their families, this is about the American people's families. Joe Biden sees this race as Scranton versus Park Avenue. He sees what's happening in America through the eyes of folks and kitchen tables like the folks he grew up with in Scranton, like people in Philadelphia like folks in Omaha, Nebraska places in Wisconsin all across this country, and that's the vantage point that he brings to this race.
I mean, look, Brian, there were lots of tangents by the president tonight. But I didn't hear any clear plans. And their lot was made on Twitter and even in some post broadcast conversation about the President's temperament. Well, the reality is that yes, his voice was calmer tonight. Yes, Donald Trump interrupted just a little bit less, but he lied just the same. He lied about Joe Biden and his family, he lied to the American people many times on that stage. And he brought this much of the same that we've heard from him over the last four years.
WILLIAMS: What is something a blanket statement you can make about the travel of Joe Biden in the 12 remaining days, at least one event per day, or are multiple events per day on the calendar?
SANDERS: I can tell you that you're going to see a lot of Joe Biden. He will be out and about tomorrow. And you're going to see him over the next few days. You're going to see Senator Harris, you're going to see Dr. Biden, Mr. Emhoff. Vice President Biden's travel will be a mixture of in person and virtual events. And we are not going to leave anything on the field.
I know, folks to the polls out there. And I'm going to echo something that our campaign manager Jen O'Malley Dillon wrote to our supporters just last weekend, we cannot let up. This race is a lot closer than it looks out there in the world, and people looking on television and reading the newspapers. And that is why we have to fight to the very end.
You know, Election Day, we'd like to call the election deadline. People are voting right now in this country. So we're encouraging people to go to iwillvote.com, go to JoeBiden.com, make your plan to vote and vote early. Because this is in the power of the people, as Joe Biden likes to say, and this is the United States of America. There's nothing we can't do if we don't come together and we believe that the people should and will be heard and we're out there to earn everyone's vote. And it's not over until the people say it's over, Brian.
WILLIAMS: Election deadline is probably a phrase we should borrow in our line of work. Symone Sanders, thank you for always making time for us. We appreciate it. Good to see you. Another break for us and coming up more of our special coverage of this final presidential debate as part of our extended edition of the 11th Hour after this.
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THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED. END
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