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Transcript: The 11th Hour with Brian Williams, 9/29/21

Guests: Peter Baker, Susan Page, Eugene Robinson, Stuart Stevens, Murtaza Akhter

Summary

The Senate is preparing to take up a short-term government funding bill that keeps federal agencies operating through December. The House on Wednesday passed a bill that would suspend the U.S. debt ceiling. The President hosted Speaker Pelosi and Leader Schumer in the Oval Office to discuss their robust work to pass the two bills that form his vision for building an economy that delivers for the American middle class. President Joe Biden attends the annual Congressional Baseball Game at Nationals Park in Washington, D.C.

Transcript

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: That is tonight`s "LAST WORD." THE 11TH HOUR WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS starts now.

[23:00:18]

BRIAN WILLIAMS, MSNBC HOST: Well, good evening once again, day 253 of the Biden administration. And as we come on the air tonight, we are at least closer to averting the government shutdown that was set to begin. Just over 24 hours from now tonight Senate Majority Leader Schumer announced that senators have reached a deal on a funding measure to at least prevent a shutdown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY) SENATE MAJHORITY LEADER: We are ready to move forward. We have an agreement on the CR, the Continuing Resolution, to prevent a government shutdown. And we should be voting on that tomorrow morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: That will then go over to the House, that will keep the government operating. But there`s still that October 18 deadline to raise the nation`s debt limit and avoid default.

Late today the House passed a measure to suspend that limit until next December, but that bill now heads to the Senate. And given the fact that Republicans have voted as a bloc. What happens there is anyone`s guess.

Meanwhile, the fighting continues among the Democrats about the President`s economic agenda. Pelosi and Schumer met with the president again today to try to break the gridlock over his three and a half trillion dollar social spending bill and a bipartisan infrastructure bill.

The House is expected to vote on the bipartisan bill tomorrow. Liberal Democrats say they won`t sign on to this unless it advances at the same time as the larger bill, which right now is unlikely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there any chance that you pull the bill tomorrow?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA) SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The plan is to bring the bill to the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried that you may not have the votes?

PELOSI: One hour at a time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Don`t stop us if you`ve heard this before, but democratic senators Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema haven`t budged in their resistance to the spending bill despite multiple meetings with Biden and his aides.

Today, Manchin issued his latest statement explaining his position. It reads in part, spending trillions more on new and expanded government programs when we can`t even pay for the essential social programs like Social Security and Medicare is the definition of fiscal insanity.

Tonight, President Biden made another effort to engage with lawmakers this time at the Annual Congressional Baseball Game.

Amid all the drama on Capitol Hill, the House Committee investigating the January 6 riot and insurrection made good on its earlier promise that a second round of subpoenas were coming. Today they were issued to 11 people tied to the events and rallies that took place before the insurrection.

Several of the newly subpoenaed are rally organizers from that day. Earlier tonight, one of the committee members explain just what it is they`re looking for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): The subpoenas that we`re just issued are really directed at the organizers of the rally, people who help fund it. People who thought the permits. They were campaign people and we need to understand what was afford here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Perhaps the most well-known person on the subpoena list today is Katrina Pierson, who served as Trump campaign spokeswoman in 2016. The committee`s letter to her cites reports that she quote, participated in a meeting with President Trump in the Oval Office January 4, 2021, at which he asked if another rally could be arranged where people like Allie Alexander and Roger Stone could speak.

Today, the House was also the scene of a hearing on domestic violent extremism, the heads of the counterterrorism division for Homeland Security and the FBI. Both noted that domestic threats are on the rise as we know. They also warned lawmakers of the dangers posed by public figures who embrace and spread conspiracy theories.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN COHEN, HOMELAND SECURITY DEPT. COORDINATOR FOR COUNTERTERRORISM: When public figures whether they be in the media, whether elected officials or former elected officials amplify and spread those narratives, they validate them, and when they validate them, they increase the potential that an individual who`s vulnerable to being influenced, vulnerable to being influenced to commit an act of violence will see this as a legitimate rationale for committing an act of violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Mr. Cohen, there is not in the Witness Protection Program and was merely the victim of bad lighting. That concern about domestic threats was echoed by the head of the Capitol Police Force who told the AP that quote, his force is seeing a historically high number of threats against lawmakers, thousands more than just a few years ago. He predicts authorities will respond to close to 9,000 threats against members of Congress in 2021, more than 4,100 had been reported from January to March.

With that, let`s bring in our starting line on this Wednesday night. Peter Baker, veteran journalist and author Chief White House correspondent for The New York Times.

[23:05:04]

Susan Page, veteran journalist and author and longtime Washington bureau chief for USA Today. And Frank Figliuzzi, former FBI Assistant Director for Counter Intelligence. To keep things fair, he too is an author. He is also the host of the podcast, The Bureau. Good evening, and welcome to you all.

Susan, I am tempted to build tonight`s opening question under the banner of what could go wrong, what stands in the way between our discussion tonight, and what`s being billed by Schumer and others as a kind of pro forma debate on a clean down measure just to keep the government going, say nothing of the votes that await?

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, well, nothing`s done till it`s done. So we seem to have funding for the government, although not for that long, right, just early December. It`s not like refunded the government for a whole year. But that does seem to be on track, which is a relief to people because they have other fish to fry here. It is not at all clear that this big infrastructure bill, which has bipartisan support, is going to pass the House tomorrow.

In fact, it is probably not if it comes to a vote, it probably is not going to pass. And that`s going to be a defeat for Nancy Pelosi and for Joe Biden. And for the argument that Democrats have presented that they can govern.

The divisions in the Democratic Party are really imperiling President Biden, heart of President Obama -- President Biden domestic agenda. So this is -- this is -- tomorrow`s going to be a big day. And I don`t think anybody can feel really confident about what`s going to happen.

WILLIAMS: Well, let`s stay right there with you, Susan, you literally wrote the book on the Speaker of the House, the biography of Nancy Pelosi. And what about the possibility tomorrow that she has to go back on her claim that she will bring nothing to the house without the votes?

PAGE: Yes, Nancy Pelosi does not like to bring things to the floor that she does not know what past. She used to make fun of John Boehner, and Ryan, for bringing up votes in the Republican controlled House without being sure that they wouldn`t be undermined by the Freedom Caucus.

So you notice it in the clip that you just showed, she said they plan to bring this for a vote tomorrow. She did not say I will definitely under all circumstances bring this to a vote tomorrow. So it is possible. I think this gets pulled back for a little more consideration, although that is probably not a privilege. She has made a commitment to bring this up for a vote. And she said today she still plans to do that. But Pelosi bringing up a major bill that she knows is going to go down. I`m not sure I`ve ever seen that before.

WILLIAMS: Indeed, Peter Baker, how to put this politely. There are White House aides who have spent less time in the Oval Office than senator cinema these days, saying nothing of FaceTime for Senator Manchin and the president. They have these tough two votes coming up. I guess, if one or both should go down. It won`t be for lack of outreach on the part of the Biden White House, or is that correct?

PETER BAKER, THE NEW YORK TIMES CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, I think that`s right. Although you do hear some complaints among Democrats and the President himself ought to be more personally involved. He had moderates and progressive to the White House last week, but didn`t have them together. He has been obviously on the phone, as you point out with Nancy Pelosi, that baseball game tonight, that there are others who want him to be more hands on.

I think that this is a member of president who`s been in the Senate for 36 years, vice president for eight years he`s got his own way of doing things he understands when to weigh in. And when not what he`s told aides in the past is you get one chance as President, you know, to put the pressure on the way only he can put the pressure on. So he may be trying to save himself for the closing moments whenever those closing moments are.

But right now, there`s a great deal of frustration on the part of the White House with Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema. They have asked repeatedly, what is their bottom line? What number are they looking at, if not 3.5 trillion? And what number would satisfy them and they don`t feel like they`ve gotten a strong answer on that. And that`s less than, you know, high and dry when it comes to deal making. It`s hard to come up with a deal if you don`t have, you know, the other side`s bottom line at this point. So there`s kind of a, you know, an impasse here and it`s very frustrating, I think at the white house right now.

WILLIAMS: Frank Figliuzzi over we go to you and your line of work with this new wave of subpoenas from the 1/6 committee today. Politico reminding us of this tonight, the Select panel`s leaders are preparing a narrow set of legal and tactical options as they brace for Trump allies to invoke a wide range of constitutional protections to avoid testifying from claiming executive privilege to invoking their constitutional rights to avoid self- incrimination.

Frank, we are mindful that this comes in the middle of a kind of national frog boiling experiment to make us all forget what 1/6 was about, what the aim of that day was. How can you give teeth to what this committee is doing?

[23:10:11]

FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FMR. FBI ASST. DIRECTOR FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE: Yes, it`s why this committee`s work is so very important it to come alongside the DOJ and FBI investigation, which while we see the fruits of it, and over 600 arrests is largely occurring behind the scenes, we`re not quite sure where it`s going. This is transparent. This is us watching us. And we need to get to the bottom of it.

But here`s the problem, there needs to be very strong coordination between the Select Committee and FBI and DOJ. We`re hearing that that`s happening. Why because if they decide to issue immunity to compel somebody to talk. DOJ wants to sign off on that. They can`t go across purposes here.

But I think we`re all in for some real life lessons on the true powers and authorities of Congress or not, as we watched legal battle after legal battle play out. I think we`re all going to become very familiar with the three kinds of congressional contempt, they can go civil, and sue somebody for not complying with a subpoena, they can go criminal, and that`s going to involve DOJ and the executive branch go into prosecuting grand jury, or they can do the nuclear option which is inherent contempt of Congress where they actually reach out and lay hands on somebody and arrest them.

We haven`t seen that for many, many decades. But we`re all in for a real lesson on how this works or doesn`t work. There`ll be some fascinating things happening with people like Steve Bannon or Roger Stone, who were actually pardoned by President Trump and may fall into a trap where if they say I`m not talking Congress says, well, you are actually pardoned on this kind of topic. You have to talk because you`re not facing any charges. We`re in for some real lessons here. Watch for people. The DOJ saying you can`t give immunity to that person that would be a tea leaf to pay attention to because that means DOJ is after that person. Lots to happen. Lots to watch for.

WILLIAMS: Thank you for that. Heads up on what to watch for next. Susan, I`m continuing to roll around your last point about Pelosi if she goes the Boehner-Ryan route, if she knowingly brings up a piece of legislation that looks to go down to failure. You expressed how surprised that`ll make you and I assume all Pelosi watchers as well. Her list of options is finite. It`s also never a good look to pull a piece of legislation at the last minute.

PAGE: So would you rather pull it or go down on a debit to be defeated. And it seems to me, you could do either thing. You could pull it from the floor and continue to have the sinuses negotiations. You could also bring it up for a vote have it be defeated and have that spark so much concern and recrimination and consternation that it gets the negotiations back on a fast track. And you bring it up.

Again, you know, that did happen in 2008 with that tarp bailout, where a bill was brought to the floor. It was defeated because Republicans didn`t provide their votes, the market tanked. And suddenly Congress was then willing to pass it the second time around. That`s also possible. But this is a pretty messy way to legislate.

WILLIAMS: Yes, funny how that happens. Peter Baker, if the Biden White House can`t get infrastructure, through Congress, anybody talking about a plan B?

BAKER: Yes, it`s a very good question. Because in fact, this is such, as Susan said, such a messy situation right now. Look, on the one hand, we take a long view of this, if they ultimately get through most of what they want some version of what they want. Nobody`s going to remember how messy it was to get to the final line. The important thing is, at least historically, for a president is to get something passed that looks impressive, right? It may not be all $3.5 trillion, it may not be the bill that you originally wanted. But if you get a lot of what you want through people are going to remember that they`re not going to have a messy process.

If you don`t get them through, then it`s a whole different ballgame. Because this is a president remember who ran on the idea. He was going to be competent and effective. He knew how to make Washington work. He was mature leader with seasoning and Congress. And if he`s turned down, not just by Republicans, but basically because of a split within his own party, because he can`t get the progressives and moderates to come together behind his agenda, that`s debilitating. They know that. They don`t want obviously that happened. I don`t think Nancy Pelosi would do anything that would allow that to be the bottom line. So we`re in for a messy few days, weeks, perhaps, but we don`t really know the outcome this point.

WILLIAMS: And Frank, over to you on the other scary news this day, more of the same really if you`ve been paying attention and that is the heightened threat level, talking here about homegrown domestic terrorists.

[23:15:06]

I know you`re in touch on a daily basis with your colleagues in federal law enforcement. Have they got this? Are they assuring you that they`ve got this?

FIGLIUZZI: No, they`re not. And in fact, I think what we need to look at is whether most of the recommendations have or have not been adhere to they came out of retired General Honore`s review after January 6 of the securities status of the Capitol. And the answers, those recommendations have largely not been fulfilled. A lot of it has to do with budget.

The Capitol Police Department is still woefully understaffed working way too much overtime for already stressed officers. The recommendation that there be a quick reaction force for the entire DC area to respond to issues that the iconic federal targets. We haven`t heard word one about whether that`s in place or not.

So I`m not confident about the situation. And it`s interesting because this topic now marries up with our previous topic, which is will the threads go up as the select committee begins to subpoena people and as the Trump people, in Trump orbit start to expend a lot of energy radicalizing people as to this Select Committee is no good. It`s a witch hunt, start targeting individual members of the committee. The threats will go up.

So, it`s a high threat period here. And I appreciate the candor of the new chief of police for Capitol PD saying, Hey, we`re getting an inordinate number of threats.

WILLIAMS: Didn`t exactly fill us with hope. But I appreciate your candor on the same front. With great thanks to our starting line tonight to Peter Baker, Susan Page and Frank Figliuzzi. Three good friends of this broadcast.

Coming up for us, a top Senate Democrats urgent message to two other Senate Democrats whose names now basically run together. And later, has America finally turn the corner in the fight against the virus. Well, that may depend on which America you`re talking about. We`ll talk to a top doctor in Miami who has some insight and some answers for us. All of it as the 11th Hour is just now getting underway on this Wednesday night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:45]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL) JUDICIARY CHAIRMAN: Now it`s time I would say for both senators, make your mark and close the deal. What is it that you want? We can`t delay these things. Simply delaying them is just inviting a bad result to be honest with you. You know, we are one heartbeat away from losing the majority in the United States Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Pointed words from Democrat Dick Durbin who`s in the leadership to the holdout senators, Manchin and Sinema, members of his own party. Remember, this is blue on blue. And he`s talking about the three and a half trillion dollar reconciliation bill.

Back with us tonight. Eugene Robinson, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for The Washington Post and Stuart Stevens, a veteran of the Mitt Romney and George W. Bush, presidential efforts. He`s now with the Lincoln Project. And importantly, his latest book is "It Was All A Lie, How the Republican Party Became Donald Trump." Gentlemen, Good evening, and welcome.

And Stuart, I know we have talked about this before. But let`s talk about the 1/6 committee in light of, as I keep calling it, the national frog boiling experiment to fuzz up our memory of 1/6 and confuse us over the goal of 1/6, and to sow distrust in our election process. How important is it that this group have the teeth of the law behind them?

STUART STEVENS, THE LINCOLN PROJECT SENIOR ADVISER: Look, I think there`s every reason to believe that what`s happening in the 1/6 Commission is a seminal event in the history of the country. We`ve never had an attack like this at least since 1812. And I think if we don`t get to the bottom of this, if we don`t hold people accountable, and do everything we can, there`s just going to be a process here where people will feel if they got away with it.

And look, at every level, what`s really important to understand is, there are individuals involved in this, at every level of the Republican Party. Their White House staff was involved in this, the Republican National Committee for instance involved in, their Senate and congressional members and staffers involved in this. There were people involved in the Attorney General`s Association involved in this. There are donors involved in this.

This is not some isolated rogue effort of a few people. This was a coordinated effort that was at least encouraged if not organized directly by the president of the United States to stop the peaceful transition of power. Now good -- what in the world can be more important and more threatening to our democracy, then a party engaged in that?

WILLIAMS: Eugene, including, but not limited to the fact that a former president twice impeached retired in Florida can in effect order an audit of the election results in the counties where he failed in the state of Texas, and have it made possible by a supplicant Governor there? Are we losing the war on election misinformation?

EUGENE ROBINSON, THE WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST: Well, from the Republican side, the war is lost. The war has been lost. You know, governor in the second most populous state in the nation, has agreed to do these ridiculous audits in a state that Donald Trump comfortably won and only audits by the way in heavily democratic counties. And, you know, he searches for little discrepancies or irregularities, not even irregularities, discrepancies that happen anytime you try to count a million or two million or five million anything over and over again, you know, you get a result that`s 100 different here and two are different there like in Arizona, you know, the fraud it revealed that Donald Trump actually got fewer votes in lost by a bigger margin than was said.

But this is all laying the groundwork for Republicans to challenge future elections, and to challenge the outcomes and perhaps nullify them, with this slate of anti-democratic election laws that they have that they have passed in state after state.

[23:25:15]

So this is a red flag emergency for our democracy. But on the Republican side, I`d say the war`s last.

WILLIAMS: Stuart, I know you`ve been diving into the gubernatorial election upcoming Youngkin versus McAuliffe in the Commonwealth of Virginia. What are your notes on this race and its potential -- this ability to be a national barometer?

STEVENS: Yes, look, Donald Trump is on the ballot on November 2. He was on the ballot November 3 last year in Virginia to overwhelmingly rejected him. There is a very deliberate plan by Donald Trump to try to take over these governors offices. And why does he want to do that? He wants to do it because in 2024, he`s going to run again, and he want these governors to be able to direct the legislators to disregard what the popular vote wants. They`re not making a secret about this.

So, you know, the question for Virginians is if you didn`t vote for Donald Trump a year ago, why would you vote for Donald Trump now?

WILLIAMS: Both of these gentlemen have agreed to stay with us. Stuart just certainly gave us enough to think about over the commercial break. And coming up when we resume our conversation, a worst case scenario for our already fragile democracy. That`s what it`s being called. We`ll talk about what can be done about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:14]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): This cesspool of conspiracy thinking is activating unstable individuals predisposed because of a mixture of ideological grievances and personal disappointments to commit violence. This is a problem that demands the attention of all of us and indeed, everyone in the country who believes in the constitutional order. On January 6, we saw a glimpse of a post democratic chaotic America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Jamie Raskin, a former House impeachment manager who sits on the January 6 Committee not mincing words. On the state of our democracy, our friend Ashley Parker, over at the Washington Post shares this concern from democracy advocates and who isn`t really who fear a Trump comeback quote, one real risk they say is that four years after the failed January 6 insurrection, Trump and his supporters emerge in 2024 more sophisticated and successful in their efforts to steal an election, perhaps after years of shaking our confidence in the integrity of our elections.

Still with us are Eugene Robinson and Stuart Stevens. Eugene, this picks right up on the quote Stuart was making before the break, and Stuart kind of casually dropped in there a Trump run in 2024. And I realized during the break, it`s been a good long time since I last asked you. Do you think it is real with your knowledge of the former president and the scene right now? Do you think he is as good as in the race?

ROBINSON: Right now, it certainly appears that he is and, you know, it`s a long time to 2024 things can change. But it absolutely looks like he`s going to be in the race again. And this anti-democratic movement, which is kind of what the Republican Party has morphed into, due to the big lie and adherence to the big lie about the election.

It`s not just Trump, it is being bedded, aided, facilitated, and abled by Republican elected officials in the Senate, in the House, at the local level, who should know better, who one thought maybe did know better but who are making possible. The kind of democratic rupture in this country that we got more than a glimpse of on January 6, but that we thought was impossible. I thought it happened in the countries that are covered in South America many years ago. I didn`t think it happened here. Yet, I have to believe the evidence of my eyes and ears, and I have to believe what I`m seeing, and it is yes, but I mean, the worst case scenario, we`re in the middle of it.

WILLIAMS: And Stuart, one of the recent columns Eugene wrote was about the press coverage of the quote, struggling Biden White House these days it is a good reminder that there are two parties at work here. I want to read this to you this. Tom Friedman wrote this in the New York Times under the headline, do Democrats have the courage of Liz Cheney, if Cheney is ready to risk everything to stop Trump, then Democrats, both moderates and progressives must rise to this moment, rise to this moment and forge the majority is needed in the Senate and House to pass the bipartisan infrastructure bill, now scheduled for a Thursday vote in the House, a voting rights bill and as much of the build back better legislation, as moderates, and progressives can agree on. Stuart, is that a real world prospect given your knowledge of the current scene?

STEVENS: Well, I have a lot of confidence in this Biden administration. The people around him are incredibly solid, incredibly experienced, stable, smart people. And I think that they understand how the process works. And this is actually a place where I would be optimistic. I think the Biden White House will be able to put together this deal.

My plea to Democrats would be to just understand what is at stake here. I mean, the problem King George had was he couldn`t imagine the creation of an American democracy, and we suffer from the same problem. We can`t imagine the ending of American democracy, but it can happen. And we have to just realize that the 1/6 wasn`t an isolated event. It was part of a larger pattern. You look at the Eastman memo. It`s not a legal document. It`s a plan to overthrow the government of the United States. It`s written by a lawyer. Look at these bills that are being introduced across the country. This is methodical, it`s steady, and Republicans are doing it because they realize that the party can`t win it in a changing America.

[23:35:06]

And instead of doing the painful stuff that it would take to adapt to what it means to have not have a white grievance party, they`ve decided that they`re going to try to turn the table so they can decide who votes enough to really end democracy as we know it. And it`s incredibly real and incredibly frightening.

WILLIAMS: As are your words on that topic, and Eugene, because I like to set our compass to true north on occasion, it`s probably worth reflecting on the words of Stuart Stevens, trying to get the Democrats to engage, pay attention, and stay in the game. Eugene, take a minute and tell our viewers what you wrote about the coverage this west wing is receiving right about now?

ROBINSON: Well, you know, I do think that the Biden administration has done a lot. They`ve done big things in its first eight months, such as passing 1.9 trillion Rescue Package, such as reshaping our foreign policy with the focus away from Europe and the Middle East, our traditional folk to toward the indo Pacific Region, and when I think will be hugely important in the future, and with the Biden build back better plan.

Really trying to lay the groundwork for a New American Century, with clean energy and with family leave, and with the sort of physical and human infrastructure improvements that have simply been ignored and not done, really for the past 40 years, with one exception of the Affordable Care Act, which took us a little bit in the direction we need to go.

So, you know, the stories I read about the struggling Biden administration, you just stand back for a minute. This administration, you can take away style points, the way they got out of Afghanistan, the problems at the border, but they get things done, and they get things done to get big things done. And I think that`s how we`re going to see the administration and I think that you know, Democrats are in the position of having really to be the entire rational political spectrum in this country at this point.

So yes, they`re arguing about policy, but they`re arguing about policy from sincerely held positions. I do believe they`ll come to a point that they can all live with, I certainly hope they do. But they`re doing normal politics. Unfortunately, this is not a normal time.

WILLIAMS: That ladies and gentlemen is why we invited these two gentlemen to join us again on this broadcast tonight, Eugene Robinson Stuart Stevens, friends of this broadcast both. Our thanks for coming on and taking our questions.

Coming up for us an update from a Florida ER doctor on how his hospital and the staff there are all fairing after months of battling this delta search.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:41:39]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FMR. FDA COMMISSIONER: You`ve seen cases pick up in the Midwest, Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, parts of Pacific Northwest, it`s an open question whether or not we`re going to see a Delta search here in the northeast. Now that kids are back in school and the weather`s getting cool. So this is going to have the course its way through the population. The national averages look very encouraging but they`re being driven by sharp declines in the south, you`re seeing infection levels pick up in other parts of the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: So tonight, fully one quarter of all the Americans eligible for a vaccine have yet to receive their first shot. Hospitalized COVID patients mostly unvaccinated continuous strain staffing and resources at hospitals around the country. And the death toll, it`s hovering just over 2,000 people every day.

Back with us tonight Dr. Murtaza Akhter, Emergency Physician at Florida International University and University of Arizona`s College of Medicine in Phoenix. We are fortunate that he is joining us tonight from Miami.

Doctor, last we spoke we were talking it seems to me about high case counts, a high death toll and staff exhaustion at hospitals throughout the state of Florida. What`s the situation right now tonight?

DR. MURTAZA AKHTER, FLORIDA INTERNATIONAL UNIV. EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN: Well, Brian, I would say the staff exhaustion is still there, it`s actually probably even worse. As you know, the case per capita has dropped quite a bit. We were one of the earliest hits, if not the earliest in the country, with the Delta variant. And it was really, really horrible about a month ago.

So fortunately, relatively speaking, it`s feeling better, of course, see plenty of COVID patients still, but it`s not like it was just a few weeks ago. But remember the ones who are sick enough in the ICU, they stay there for quite a while. There are two ways out of they`re getting better, which often doesn`t happen, or by dying, which is the unfortunate way.

And so the ICUs are still pretty full. The ER feels a lot calmer than before, fortunately. But the exhaustion doesn`t go away, especially because so many of these people refuse to be vaccinated. They don`t believe what we`re telling them. And then ironically, they come to us anyway, when they get sick. And it`s very frustrating when we`re telling you what to do, you refuse to do it. And then when you get sick, it come to us begging for alternative therapies.

WILLIAMS: Doctor, I don`t know if you heard the news from the world of business today. Another social media company has kind of discovered in slow motion that they are a publisher. And so, YouTube is going to ban all kinds of anti-vaxv and vaccine misinformation videos. Little bit like closing the barn door after the horse is long gone. But considering you practice medicine, Arizona, Florida where misinformation and conspiracies have really taken root and our deep end of the soil I assume you think this is a step in the right direction?

AKHTER: Yes, absolutely. This is a step in the right direction. Or you can say what you want about free speech and ethics and the legality of it. As YouTube as far as I know is a private company, and they can choose to either be pro science or anti-science, and they decided to be pro science and anti-death which is great.

[23:45:00]

Now of course conspiracy theorists will always find a way to get the word out whether they want to use Facebook or YouTube or TikTok, or whatever it is that suits their pleasure for the day. But the fact of the matter is a lot of the misinformation has been happening over social media. And whether you want to blame them or not is a separate argument.

What clearly, if you as a company, believe in vaccinations and believe in science, it would seem to me that one way of supporting that is by getting rid of misinformation on your website, or on your platform. And of course, that will make it harder for misinformation to spread, it will still happen. People have their ways. But at least YouTube for its part has done the absolute right move by saying we`re going to stick to the science that shows that lives can be saved by just getting vaccinated.

WILLIAMS: And I`m also guessing you applaud United Airlines, they are willing to do without a couple 100 people. One percent of their payroll, who chose not to meet the vaccine mandate as a condition of working for the airline. They`re in the public transportation business. And I am guessing people against vaccine mandates, you would say to them, come work a shift with me in the ER.

AKHTER: That`s correct. You know, if we allowed visitors, I would happily allow them in. But that`s the ironic part is that things have gotten so bad that it`s very restricted as to who can come in. And yes, I completely agree with United Airlines` move for those who don`t want to be vaccinated. For one, you`re risking yourself and others, but two, there are other airplanes out there. And I would recommend that you go with an airline who believes in these precautions, but it`s not like this is your own end all be all.

So be with United Airlines. I agree with ESPN. Everybody was for the vaccine mandate, I completely agree. They`re not going to put you in jail if you`re not vaccinated. But you`re free to take another job. And quite frankly, I want to be working in a place where I know that I can be safe and that people around me can be safe around me. So I completely applaud tonight all the companies as well as organizations that are for the mandate. Again, if you don`t want to be vaccinated, that`s a bad idea for one but to go work somewhere else. It`s simple as that.

WILLIAMS: A hard working frontline physician who is in the teeth of this fight and has been for all these many months. Dr. Murtaza Akhter, thank you very much for being our guest again tonight. And taking our questions.

Coming up for us as we continue the dire situation to our south in Haiti tonight and how it`s tied to the surge of migrants that we saw a while back at our southern border. That story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:51:19]

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JACOB SOBOROFF, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This plane the first afford to arrive in Port-au-Prince today carrying Haitian migrants the busiest day yet for the Biden administration, expelling thousands of Haitians gathered under that bridge in Del Rio, Texas.

(on camera): Once they arrive at this airport, many of them are confused. Many of them are asking why they are here in the first place.

(voice-over): Their next stop this processing center run by the United Nations, which expects by the end of today as many as 6,000 Haitians to have been returned since September 19.

(on camera): On this bus right here are migrants who have just taken off from the plane. And they`re basically going to be put through United Nations repatriation program right now. They`re going to get instructions on what to do once they arrive here in Haiti.

(voice-over): One family returned today told us he`ll try again to leave the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere one day and many of the migrants haven`t lived in for years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to live somewhere we can have a better life.

SOBOROFF: The UN`s chief admission for migration issues here says it`s dangerous for returning migrants.

GIUSEPPE LOPRETE, U.S. MIGRATION IN HAITI MISSION CHIEF: My main concern is that a lot of people, thousands of people will be in areas that are controlled by the gangs that are affected by the earthquake or in other difficult situations. And the more come here, the more difficult the situation will be here.

SOBOROFF (on camera): Brian, yesterday the Secretary of Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas, met with the ambassador to Haiti in Washington DC, and they agreed that they wanted to treat the migrants who are arriving here in Port-au-Prince with what they call dignity and respect. Critics of the Biden administration`s immigration policies say that is not what`s happening on the ground here. There`s a delegation or divide administration that`s expected to arrive here tomorrow. Brian

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WILLIAMS: Jacob Soboroff in Haiti reporting for us tonight with our thanks. When we come back some of the alternative COVID prevention methods being pushed by another network for those who are still working in their home laboratories doing their research on the vaccine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:56:49]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R-WI): I`ve gotten every vaccine until this one because I`ve had COVID. But the federal agencies have not been transparent. They have not given the American public information that we need to make that informed choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILIAMS: There he is the last thing before we go tonight. Wisconsinites no doubt so proud of their Senator Ron Johnson, who always insists that he`s not an anti-vaxxer but then never misses an opportunity to cast doubt on the vaccine, call it experimental, whatever it takes to get the approval of the MAGA crowd that he so craves.

Come to think of it. He has that in common with Fox News where they never miss a chance to cast doubt on the vaccine. And the folks over at Media Matters have noticed they have pushed a number of alternative preventative measures treatments and cures.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One plasma chloroquine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Massive doses of vitamin E even bear bile.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Vaping the whatever protocol something chloride in a vape.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saline nasal washes can be effective against COVID.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The best way to, you know, ward off the COVID is to be healthy.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: Exercising outdoors, getting vitamin D from the sun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of vitamin D.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fitness getting in better shape and diet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vitamin D does work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sun kills it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aspirin, vitamin D.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Vitamin D and using blood thinners.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aspirin vitamin C, zinc, vitamin D.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pepsin. A simple stomach drug.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vitamin D or quercetin.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had convalescent plasma.

HANNITY: Convalescent plasma.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking blood from survivors just taking out the antibodies and infusing it.

HANNITY: Transfer a plasma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Convalescent plasma. We have antivirals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a drug I`m going to talk about called leronlimab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Colchicine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Leronlimab.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favipiravir.

CARLSON: Favipiravir.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And ivermectin, NAC, hydroxychloroquine and emerging antivirals and therapeutics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tamiflu as an example, it may work with corona. Blood pressure drug called losartan.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That drug NAC.

HANNITY: (INAUDIBLE) and zinc.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zinc has been shown to help fight this virus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vitamin D and zinc. The data there is irrefutable not nearly as controversial, as say masks or social distancing.

HANNITY: Treatments now are already being used.

CARLSON: This is what happens when science becomes political. Suddenly people start lying and you can`t trust anything you hear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: That last point there is super important. Also important to note if none of these alternatives work effectively against the virus, there is a vaccine for it.

That is our broadcast for this Wednesday evening with our thanks for being here with us. On behalf of all our colleagues at the networks of NBC News, good night.