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Transcript: The 11th Hour with Brian Williams, 7/15/21

Guests: Paul Butler, Clint Watts, Nahid Bhadelia


Los Angeles county has reinstated indoor mask mandates as the highly contagious delta variant triggers more cases. Most qualifying families will automatically receive the expanded payments, but those who don`t have to file taxes or haven`t done so will need to update their information with the IRS. Senate will vote on bipartisan infrastructure bill next Wednesday.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Jonathan Capehart will be live with all, all of the Texas Democrats in Washington D.C. All the Texas Democrats in one room for an MSNBC special presentation, Battleground Democracy: The Texas Democrats. That`s Monday at 10 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC. That is Tonight`s Last Word. The 11th Hour with Brian Williams starts now.

STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, I`m Stephanie Ruhle in for Brian Williams who has the night off. It is day 177 in the Biden administration. And tonight, there are brand new explosive revelations about the last days of the Trump presidency and the chaos of January 6.

There from the new book, I Alone Can Fix It, by Pulitzer Prize-winning Washington Post reporters, Phil Rucker and Carol Leonnig. They write that after seeing the riot unfold, Trump`s own White House Counsel feared Trump could be brought up on charges. "The afternoon of January 6, it started dawning on the White House counsel and his deputies that Trump could conceivably be charged with a crime for setting off that deadly riot. There were a lot of ifs about whether that was likely. But one thing was absolutely guaranteed, sprawling investigations. Any good prosecutor would closely examine what the President, Donald Trump Jr., Rudy Giuliani and others had said specifically at that rally. They could be accused of sedition, a charge not leveled at a president in a century."

Also, tonight COVID cases are climbing around the country. Some officials are now bringing back mask mandates. NBC News Correspondent, Miguel Almaguer has the latest.

MIGUEL ALMAGUER, NBC NEWS NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tonight, Los Angeles, the nation`s largest county taking a step back requiring masks indoors, even for the vaccinated, effective Sunday, impacting 10 million people here and breaking with CDC guidance. It`s a clear signal concern is growing over the highly contagious Delta variant.

Meantime, for some of the 48 million children under 12 and their parents who were hoping to get them vaccinated this fall a longer wait. The FDA will now review several additional months of safety data, meaning a vaccine for kids won`t likely be available until early next year.


DR. KAVITA PATEL, CLINICAL PHYSICIAN: All schools should really have very strong contingency plans. What are the metrics by which we would go back to virtual learning? What will we do to keep children and staff safe?


RUHLE: But important to note this is nothing like the surge we saw months ago. This latest surge is mostly among people who are not vaccinated. Don`t forget we have ample vaccines available across this country.

Well, today the White House went on offense against those who spread vaccine misinformation. They called out specifically tech companies for their role in making that happened.


DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Misinformation takes away our freedom to make informed decisions. Modern technology companies have enabled misinformation to poison our information environment. During the COVID-19 pandemic health misinformation has led people to resist wearing masks in high risk settings. It`s led them to turn down proven treatments and to choose not to get vaccinated. This has led to avoidable illnesses in depth. Simply put health information has cost us lives.


RUHLE: Meanwhile, President Biden is focused on both his foreign and domestic policy agenda. Today he hosted German Chancellor Angela Merkel at the White House. The President touting his expanded child tax credit as Americans began to see their first monthly payments today.


JOE BIDEN, (D) U.S. PRESIDENT: It`s expected to reduce child poverty by over 40%, and as could be a significant, significant game changer.


RUHLE: President Biden also relying on Senate Democrats to make his domestic agenda a reality. Today, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer announced the Senate will begin voting on the bipartisan infrastructure package. That`s the hard infrastructure one next Wednesday.

With that, let`s bring in our lead off guests on this Thursday night, Jonathan Lemire, White House Reporter for The Associated Press, Paul Butler, Former Federal Corruption Prosecutor at the Department of Justice, currently a Professor of Law at Georgetown, and Clint Watts, a former FBI Special Agent and a Distinguished Fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute.

Mr. Lemire, I start with you. Let`s talk about this book. These revelations are absolutely crazy. But you covered a whole lot of crazy in the Trump White House for four straight years, when you read, even just some of these quotes today, where do you rate them on a scale of this is unbelievable?

JONATHAN LEMIRE, ASSOCIATED PRESS WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Hey, Steph, good to see you. For a long time, those of us who covered the Trump administration sort of thought there was the big three of days that we would forever define this presidency despite the fact that he could generate headlines and controversies, you know, dozens of times a day, and it was always, it was Charlottesville, it was Helsinki, and it was the children in the cages. And all of that, of course, was eclipsed by his response to the COVID pandemic, and then of course, January 6.


It is a terrific work of reporting from our friends, Phil and Carol, congrats to them. And it is hard to know where to begin. We certainly were aware that President Trump on the day whereas January 6 was unfolding and his supporters formed a riot and storm the Capitol using flagpoles as weapons, hockey sticks to beat up Capitol Police officers. And he watched and he enjoyed the spectacle. And we`ve now gotten new insight into that.

But there`s been concerns that General Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was afraid and express to others that the President of United States, the president of United States could form a coup against the government to prevent incoming President Joe Biden, the president elected that point from taking power, which of course led to Donald Trump today, civilian Donald Trump, to lead -- to email out this statement, banned from Twitter, of course, and it must be said, where he said, if I were to have a coup, I wouldn`t involve General Milley.

And he actually said this phrase, I`m not into coups, which is seals, like, in some ways, a defining moment in American history, where we`ve had to have a president actually proclaim I`m not into coups. And frankly, I`m not sure we believe him. Because we saw what he did to try to hold on to power in those last days, and this book, among many others are bringing it to light. It`s terrific work of journalism. And it goes to show you just how close Stephanie, we were, this close to perhaps being a strong ordinarily dangerous situation and losing a fundamental piece of this democracy.

RUHLE: OK, well, you know, who doesn`t remember that we were this close? The Republicans who day in and day out, the further we get away from January 6, they`re trying to erase the insurrection, rather than trying to distance themselves from Trump, who let`s remind our audience, lost.


LEMIRE: No, it`s true. I thought you were throwing a sound there. Yeah. No, a 100%, and then none of the Republicans have done that. There are very few, we know the names, Liz Cheney, Mitt Romney, I had Adam Kinzinger. There`s a handful Republicans, House and Senate who have stood up to him. Very few others have. They believe, they still are attaching their star, their names to Donald Trump because they look at the polls, and they see how well he still does among Republican voters the rank and file and therefore they`re afraid to contract them. Mitch McConnell, now the Senate Minority Leader is a great example. After January 6, during the President`s second impeachment trial, he denounced what happened there.

Since then, he has made clear that if Donald Trump were to be the 2024 Republican nominee, he would support him again. He`s someone who has tried to block Democratic efforts to overturn Republican state legislatures` efforts to restrict access to the ballot. The Republicans, they`re not going anywhere. They have tried to downplay what happened on January 6, we`ve heard Senator Ron Johnson and others suggest that this was just Taurus, that therefore they`d be more afraid of their Black Lives Matter protesters, rather than what we did see, which is a crowd of pro-Trump rioters.

We have also seen, of course, that there are Republican House Leader McCarthy refuse, at least so far to appoint members to the January 6 panel. This was after the Republicans and the Senate blocked the bipartisan commission. Now we have the select committee, formed by Speaker Pelosi and all expectation is that Leader McCarthy will appoint Republicans who will of course, downplay those events.

So the democracy is still indeed in a perilous state right now, Stephanie, and we are seeing Republicans refuse to own up with a January 6, tried to put the behind them with their focus only on holding on to their power and potentially even reclaiming a majority in the House or Senate during the 2022 midterms.

RUHLE: Taurus in the Seventh Ring of Hell, perhaps.

Paul, we do have the latest excerpt about concerns that Trump could face charges stemming from the insurrection. So far that has not happened, is there any political risks remaining for the former president?

PAUL BUTLER, GEORGETOWN LAW PROFESSOR: You know, could have gutsy prosecutor Ringu case of sedition against former President Trump, possibly, but the person who would bring the prosecution would be the Attorney General. He would have to authorize it. And so far, Merrick Garland has not shown that kind of guts. So I think our nation has to turn his lonely eyes to other investigations for some kind of accountability for Trump. I think these revelations certainly enhanced the case in Georgia, where the Atlanta district attorney is investigating election fraud by Trump, Giuliani and others and certainly we`ve heard evidence of Trump`s criminal intent here is recklessness. Ivanka, according to these reports, tried three times on January 6, to get him to call off his troops. And the President refused until it was too late.


This investigation has nothing to do with the Manhattan district attorney investigation of the Trump Organization. Stephanie, I do think it provides more incentive for those prosecutors to also try to bring down Mr. Trump himself. Remember famously out of pawn was brought down by tax evasion that was far from the worst crime that he ever committed. But it was something that prosecutors could prove. And so I think that Manhattan district attorney, we`ll be looking at that as well. On Sunday, President Trump said that after the impeachment, after both impeachment, I got worse. That`s the prosecutors worst fear that when people are allowed to act as if they`re above the law to escape accountability, they get worse, and Trump himself admitted that.

RUHLE: Another book with Ivanka Trump leaking that behind the scenes, she was really trying to do the right thing. Well, she is always welcome to join us here on MSNBC and tell us publicly what she was doing in the administration.

Clint, let`s turn to the White House and vaccines. They`re really trying to fight vaccine disinformation. And I want to share with Jen Psaki said today, watch this.


JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There`s about 12 people who are producing 65% of anti-vaccine misinformation on social media platforms. All of them remain active on Facebook, despite some even being bans on other platforms, including Facebook, ones that Facebook owns. Facebook needs to move more quickly to remove harmful violative posts.


RUHLE: OK, they need to remove it, or what? Facebook is saying, Clint, that they`re removing misinformation, but that`s after it`s posted. And unless the government changes rules and regulations, do they have any way to force Facebook to do anything? Facebook answers to shareholders and to their customers? Both were very, very happy with them. And currently they haven`t broken any laws?

CLINT WATTS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: That`s right, Stephanie, I mean, to Facebook`s credit, if you look all the way back to election 2016, we`ve been talking about this for -- basically five years now. Congress really has never said what they want police. So Facebook and all the social media companies go about policing content, based on kind of the lens of and in the current that you see in the United States at the moment. And that`s just not the best way to go.

The other part is if you`re always policing content, you`re always losing to the worst offenders. And that`s what the press secretary there, she was exactly right, about. 1% of the manipulators make about 90% of the misinformation and disinformation that`s out there. So if you`re fighting content, you`re always going to lose, you`re reacting. And instead, you really got to focus on the individuals, those that are prolific, you focus on the most prolific people, don`t make a sizable dent in the amount of malign information that is causing this problem where people don`t trust the vaccines or can`t get out to the vaccines, because they`re hearing far more fear than they are in terms of calm, they`re hearing far more falsehoods than they are in terms of truth. Now, we`ll always get to them quicker than the truth.

RUHLE: The best we`re going to get out of Facebook is that they`re going to try real hard, as long as it doesn`t hurt their bottom line very much. Don`t we have to turn our attention to government if we want something done about misinformation in terms of changing regulations?

WATTS: Stephanie, I absolutely agree with having testified to the Senate, I think four or five times now I`ve lost track about this exact issue. There`s not been one single regulation or law that`s come out after all of those hearings, going all the way back to 2017. They will call a lot of the heads of the social media companies up to Capitol Hill, they will yell at them, but they will never really issue any guidelines. And from the perspective of Capitol Hill right now, it`s a debate about section 230 and free speech if you`re looking at the Republican side of the aisle, versus the political left side of the aisle, which is focused on things like misinformation and election misinformation.

So I think until Capitol Hill can really decide what they want police inside America, what you`ll see is all of the social media companies, Facebook being the biggest one will lean in whatever direction is in the majority. I think that`s just a not good situation for things like securing our elections, making sure people get vaccinated, and then we have trust in our elected officials in our institutions.

RUHLE: So the CEOs get called to testify, they`ve been embarrass for a day and then they hop back on their planes, head home, and nothing actually changes.


Jonathan, let`s talk infrastructure in this expanded childhood tax credit. If the bipartisan deal goes through next week, and they end up scrapping the entire democratic going alone, three and a half trillion dollar deal, but they find a way to make that child tax credit permanent, hugely popular, we started seeing payments go out today, would that be a giant win for this White House?

LEMIRE: Well, that remains to be seen. And certainly those tax credits did come out today, Americans saw them in their bank accounts if they`re getting direct deposit, and been fined their taxes last couple of years. And if you`ve got it in the mail, you got a letter that accompanied it with a signature by the president and saying that they would do this from the code really fill.

The White House still is trying to do this on two tracks, more or less simultaneously is infrastructure. They were intense three hour plus meetings on Capitol Hill today for the bipartisan deal. In fact, the trio of top White House negotiators were there, meeting with Democrats, Republicans, and there are still issues to be worked. I would not say that it is a guarantee. The bipartisan piece of this that hard infrastructure bridges, highways, roads, broadband is a guarantee to get done because there are real concerns about the pay for it. And in particular, whether they enforced IRS strike payments would be enough to cover it. We saw just earlier this week, the $3.5 trillion budget, the reconciliation bill. Democrats alone also get done that also not quite a sure thing. Though, the progressives, Bernie Sanders, Warren and others have signaled their support, they`re still concerned about moderates, like Senators Manchin and Sinema, whether they will go that high.

So right now the White House feeling optimistic, they feel like they`re on the right track on both of these bills, but they also recognize they`re not there yet. I won`t do a football analogy. We always do football analogies, saying what yard line these bills are on. But I`ll say this, they`re not quite -- they`re entering the homestretch. But they`re not the finish line. And these next couple of weeks, particularly next week, when these votes, the cloture votes start coming up, are crucial as to whether they`ll happen or not.

RUHLE: Jonathan, on the bipartisan deal, will Republicans stick with this deal? The 11 Republicans who said yes, they`re going to go for it. If they think this three and a half trillion dollar go it alone reconciliation is going to happen at the same time or even after. Why on earth would they do that? That would give President Biden the biggest win ever. Won`t they walk away?

LEMIRE: That`s a good point. And that`s well, some Republicans are considering it. We`ve heard from others who say, look, this is my word. I said I`d go with this agreement and I`ll stick with it. Senator Romney is one who said that, hey, I`m not going to commit one way or the other until I actually see the bill rewritten. He in fact, objected to the idea that majority leader Schumer would bring it to a vote, you know, cloture vote next week, without it being drafted. And I think that`s where some frankly, some Democrats are also concerned. Manchin, in particular has said, hey, I want to see what`s in there. I`m not going to rule out yet a bill that size. But I want to know how it`s going to be paid for.

Democrats to this point of say, look, this will all get done. But the particulars are still being sussed out. So I think we may have a delay. There`s some hope to get this done in the next week or two. But if -- but there may be, it may take longer, frankly, for the particulars to come in. And I do think there is a chance, you might see Republicans start to walk away from it, saying, look, hey, why are we spending all this money on this bipartisan infrastructure bill, when the Democrats are spending all that much more money on their own bill? So I think this is -- this is the government as much as the White House feels good about where they are? They know this is not a sure thing yet. And we also heard from the Press Secretary Psaki today saying that it`ll be President Biden perhaps acting as a closer and willing to negotiate, willing to give up some stuff in order to get these things both done.

RUHLE: And while we wait, bridges continue to crumble. Paul, before we go, I want to ask you quickly, a different subject but something that caught our eye today. We noticed this tweet from Politico reporter Josh Gerstein, where he wrote New York Times files of FOIA suit for a copy of material Mueller Deputy Andrew Weissmann maintained, sometimes referred to as an alternative Mueller report, Andrew Weissmann contributor here at MSNBC. What could the New York Times be looking for an alternative Mueller report?

BUTLER: So what Weissmann says in his book is that they prepared a separate report with some key facts that Mueller was not willing to reveal to the public since the result of his investigation was that no charges would be brought against Trump. So we have no idea what`s in this alternative report, but it`s hugely significant for two reasons. The first is, there could be real evidence involving Trump`s culpability with regard to collusion and obstruction, which of course the Mueller report found significant evidence of. And the other concern, though, Stephanie, is that the Barr Justice Department has been defended by the Garland Justice Department. Problem is an institutionalist, his ideas, he`s defending the department, not Barr or Sessions, but the fact is that because of because of Garland`s institutionalism, he`s shielding people from accountability. So he`s probably going to fight releasing this alternative report. I hope the New York Times wins its FOIA request because history deserves answers.


RUHLE: I do too. I want to know what`s in there. Gentlemen, thank you for leading us off tonight. Clint Watts, Paul Butler and Jonathan Lemire, who, you know, I felt bad for myself. I started work at 7 a.m. today. Jonathan has been on TV since 6:00.

And a quick note Monday night, I Alone Can Fix It. Authors, Phil Rucker and Carol Leonnig will join Brian, with even more details from their new book.

But coming up next, more fallout from this stunning new revelation, top generals feared a coup in the final days of the Trump White House, a coup.

And later, why Republican leader Kevin McCarthy paid a visit to the former president in warehouse New Jersey. Well, doesn`t everybody want to go to Jersey in July? The 11th Hour is just getting underway on a Thursday night, don`t go anywhere.


RUHLE: More revelations tonight from the bombshell book, I Alone Can Fix It. They show the extent to which people in Trump`s orbit intervened to save him from himself. This time it was White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. Authors Phil Rucker and Carol Leonnig report this.


A discussion arose inside the White House about whether the President could perspectively pardon Giuliani and Trump Jr. and perhaps even himself to eliminate the risk of being charged. Cipollone told Mark Meadows, that was a step too far. It was smack of, and quite possibly constitute, obstruction of justice. Cipollone wouldn`t have any of it. He threatened to resign if the President issued any such pardons. Not only that, but he said he and many of his senior lawyers would resign and mass and then he would hold a news conference announcing their strong objections. The news conference threat was the death knell for the discussion. The White House could not afford to take any more public shaming.

Here with us tonight to discuss Tim Miller, a contributor to the Bulwark and former Communications Director for Jeb Bush and Susan Del Percio, MSNBC Political Analyst and a Veteran Republican Strategist.

I`m so glad you are both here. We got to dig into this. Tim, I want to share more from this book specifically around what the military brass would do if Trump ordered a military action that they viewed as dangerous. Were they write, "They considered falling on their swords, one by one, like a set of dominoes. They concluded they might rather serially resign than execute the order. It was kind of a Saturday night massacre in reverse an informal blockade they would keep in their back pockets if it ever came to that."

OK, Tim, these guys all seem to want revisionist history. They want to be remembered as heroes. We lived through it. We know what happened. I mean, it was a step too far for Pat Cipollone. But everything else wasn`t over the course of four years, is this a little bit like give me a break, guys?

TIM MILLER, THE BULWARK CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, Steph, a big fashion upgrade here in the 11th Hour. It`s good to see you. I have to tell you it is very much like give me a break, very much give me a break. Look General Milley, I do want to say I think that we`ve learned a lot of details. And obviously he was in a very sensitive situation and being very concerned about what, you know, the commander in chief potentially could have ordered them to do and preparing for that. And so I do sort of give Milley a pass. I think he has demonstrated that he has shown a lot of good judgment over the past few months.

Cipollone on the other hand, give me a break, I mean, let`s consider the options he had on the table. And the President comes to and says he`s going to self pardon himself and all of his cronies for all these crimes. He could have held the news conference that he threatened and told us all about it. He could have backed up a few months and come out like Olivia Troye and Elizabeth Neumann and others did and cut ads with us Republican voters against Trump and told people it was happening by the scenes and warn them and tried to stop a second term from the man who attempted a slow motion coup. Or he could have done nothing, went along with the slow motion coup. And then after everything was OK told Phil Rucker and Carol Leonnig how great he was. That`s the route that he took. And so I`m just -- I`m not really all that impressed with Trump`s lawyer who sat in the cockpit there during a slow motion coup attempt that led to an insurrection at the Capitol saying that he gave a really stern threat one time in the Oval Office. I`m not really buying what he`s selling.

RUHLE: Pat Cipollone, Tim Miller just said, you`re full of baloney.

Susan, what does it say in light of these mountains of new reporting about what went down in the final days, what does that tell you about Republican lawmakers that they not only have amnesia about all of that, they`re trying to make all of us forget it?

SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah, what`s really unfortunate here Steph is that they knew what was happening in real time, maybe not exactly all the recordings that we`re seeing, but close to it. They knew what President Trump was. He knew -- they all knew what his people were up to. Look at his President Trump`s cabinet for crying out loud, it was all actings, it was an Acting Secretary of Defense, an Acting Attorney General and actor head of Homeland Security.

Everyone knew this administration was unraveling and was dangerous. And not only did they not say anything at that time, but like you just mentioned, they`re trying to get people to forget about it. It was real. It was -- Tim did a great podcast with Charlie Sykes today, titled, It Was Worse than We Thought. And we thought it was really bad.

And now as everything comes to light, what I am most disheartened by is how the Republicans are not saying a word or worse trying to spin it and put out more false information. I read an excerpt from the Phil Rucker and Carol Leonnig book today. And let me tell you, reading it, it was -- it brought tears to my eyes when you see -- when you hear the details of what was happening at the time of the insurrection and yet I was also so angry like how could this all happen and how can these legislators go out there today knowing what happened and say these absurd, ridiculous and frankly dangerous and reckless things.


RUHLE: Did that bring tears to your eyes? Or did you have tears in your eyes? Because Republicans are still down with Trump, despite all of that, luckily, you`re going to be here with us after the break, Susan. Susan, Tim, stick around. We are just getting started.

Coming up next, exactly what is Kevin McCarthy up to in New Jersey, I can tell you this. He`s not visiting me. We`ll be back when the 11th Hour continues on the other side of the break.



RUHLE: House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy spent part of the day at Trump`s house in Jersey and thus far we don`t know for sure whether or not they were discussing the committee investigating the January 6 insurrection, but I`m going to guess they did.

Public hearings begin on July 27. And thus far, McCarthy has not named any Republicans. POLITICO playbook reporting Trump wants McCarthy to pick some hardcore Trump loyalists like Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise.

Let`s discuss still with us Tim Miller and Susan Del Percio.

Susan, let`s be honest, there is no reason for Kevin McCarthy to be in my home state of New Jersey other than to kiss Trump`s ring and assure him this committee will not hurt in any way.


Given that, do we have any reason to believe McCarthy will put country first, and she`s legitimate people for this committee because let`s remind you, that his direction wasn`t partisan. They were going after all of our government.

DEL PERCIO: There`s no chance that Kevin McCarthy will do the right thing. He has yet to show him that he`s able to do the right thing. I`ve now called him Kevin McTrump, because he is really just a little Trumpster running around. I am sure that Donald Trump gave him a list of names and said, memorize these. This is who I want on the committee and do what I say. And, you know, little Kevin McTrump will go ahead and do that.

RUHLE: Matt Lewis would agree he wrote in The Daily Beast about McCarthy`s visit to Bedminster and I want to share a bit of it, Tim. He writes, forget kiss in the ring. The implicit point is that McCarthy is performatively licking the bottom of Trump`s shoes. Trump, not McCarthy is the leader of the Republican Party. Trump can be the 2024 presidential nominee if he wants, or he can be the Speaker of the House, assuming Republicans take back the House. Or he could probably get Kevin McCarthy to dress up like Little Bo Peep if he wants. He is the master. And when the master summons, you go.

Here`s an ID not get. He`s the master of what? Donald Trump is an unemployed guy playing golf in Jersey. He lost The White House, he lost the House, he lost the Senate. Kevin McCarthy actually has a very senior role in government. What is Donald Trump the boss man of?

MILLER: Well, he`s the master of ceremonies at Bedminster. You know, he can leave speaks at people`s weddings when they asked him to. He`s kind of like a Wedding Singer as well. So that`s a pretty powerful, it`s a pretty strong and powerful role.

Look, Kevin McCarthy is the master of nothing, right? I mean, this is what it comes down to is that Kevin McCarthy decided after January 6, that it was more important to him to manage his position within the party, and to manage his position with Donald Trump and manage his position with the voters than to be an actual minority leader and try to you know, do what the purpose of government is get legislation passed, that benefits his constituents work with the Democrats, maybe try to cut deals so that the Democrats don`t do as liberal things anyway, as they might want to do on their own devices.

I mean, that`s how government works, like up until two minutes ago, you know, and this is how our entire history of our government has worked. This is the first time these last few years where one party has decided that they`re going to be entirely beholden to their craziest supporters and the commentators on partisan news outlets, rather than be beholden to the entire country and try to argue for and legislate with and make amendments to things that would best benefit them and look at, you know, none of them voted for the COVID package.

I was very skeptical the people in your previous segment who think that they`re going to do a bipartisan infrastructure bill. That`s not what their incentives are right now. Their incentives are very popular with their own voters to be popular on Fox and to be popular with the Baron of Bedminster.

RUHLE: Yikes. Susan, I guess here`s my question. The revelations in the new book, everything that we`ve seen out of Republicans over the last few months, none of these things are a surprise. This is exactly who Donald Trump is and was Republican behavior isn`t surprising. But what does all of this tell you about the 75 million people who voted for Trump and who continue to support him?

MILLER: 74, 74. They like to round up staff. We don`t need to round up because he likes to round up.

RUHLE: All right.

DEL PERCIO: What it tells me is that this goes way beyond Donald Trump and Trumpism. This goes into almost a neo-fascism among grassroot Republican Party -- the grassroots of the Republican parties in state and county areas. This is a different type of control.

If it`s not Donald Trump in two years, it will be somebody else that these people will be following because they are all geared up and they are they keep moving. That`s why Kevin McCarthy doesn`t do anything because he`s afraid of literally the people on the ground. He knows he can`t survive their wrath.

And frankly, that`s how a lot of other Republican elected officials feel. They have gotten the party`s has gotten out of their control, and they don`t know what to do with it.

RUHLE: But can they spell neo-fascism? Susan Del Percio, Tim Miller, thank you both so much. Great to see you both tonight. Hope to see you both soon.

Coming up, a doctor`s take on the new vaccine disinformation pushback and cases among unvaccinated Americans are soaring. Why? Because they choose to have them soar. They couldn`t get vaccinated.



RUHLE: We`re following important developments on the pandemic tonight. Los Angeles County will reinstate indoor mask mandates, regardless of vaccine status as the highly contagious Delta variants triggers more cases. Well, back here in the east, the Yankees postponed their game against the Red Sox, after several fully vaccinated players tested positive.

I want to bring in Dr. Nahid Bhadelia, an infectious disease physician and the founding director of Boston University`s center for emerging infectious diseases policy and research. Dr. Bhadelia here`s what I don`t get. The people across the country who are getting very sick are unvaccinated. Should we be concerned that we`re sliding backwards? Or should we just be pushing everybody to get the damn shots?

DR. NAHID BHADELIA, INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN: All of the above. I think that we should be concerned that the cases arising, Stephanie. What we`re seeing is that because the cases are rising, you know, you`re seeing the states that don`t have the higher vaccination rates now seeing that burden, right, increased burden of both hospitalizations and deaths because that largest burden is carried by. I think the deaths are like 99 percent of the COVID deaths last month were among people who are unvaccinated.

But here`s the other concern, right? We`re also -- you covered disinformation earlier. We`re also facing an increasing other pandemic, which is the disinformation pandemic and the misinformation pandemic where 50 percent, 54 percent of Americans either believe in a commonly shared COVID myth, or don`t know if it`s true or wrong.

And because of that, you know, those are the most likely people to not get vaccinated. And so this battle is -- it`s going to be uphill until we can get more people vaccinated and protected and bring those cases down.

RUHLE: All right, well then let`s talk about motivators that would get people to want to be vaccinated.


France announced that anyone who wants to visit cafes, bars or shopping centers must show a health pass to prove they`ve been vaccinated or recently tested negative for the virus. When we were reopening here in the US, he heard about that. All sorts of businesses said, you do not have to wear a mask if you`re fully vaccinated.

What happened to that? That was supposed to be the carrot to get a lot of people, especially young people motivated, hey, you want to go to a bar or restaurant or ballgame? You`re going to have to get vaccinated. I`ve seen basically none of that happening with the exception of a concert here, maybe a flight. When was the last time you walked into a store? And they asked your vaccination status.

BHADELIA: Yes, and Stephanie, this is sort of been hard in the US. I mean, adult mandating adult vaccinations has as -- we`ve never been, you know, successful. We`ve done it in healthcare settings in, you know, whether it`s flu vaccines, or the usual measles, mumps, (INAUDIBLE), all the other vaccines, easier to do it in those settings and universities in schools, adult vaccinations we`ve had an issue with.

And what you`re seeing, you know, is this unfortunate confluence. You have this rising wave of anti-vaxx sentiment that was increasing even before the pandemic, and now it`s converging somehow with this, you know, hyper politicization, the pipe -- the bipartisan, you know, politicization of the vaccination.

And so, my concern is, you know, as we move out of this, what are the big things instead work to depoliticize the vaccinations that, yes, there are places that we could potentially mandate, but one of the ways that we get people to do it is today, if you`re a legislator, and if you are not out there promoting vaccinations, you are not out there trying to make it easier for people to get vaccinated. You`re hurting your own constituents. You`re keeping your communities from recovering. And so we need to sort of dial back the rhetoric. And I think that might help increase that.

But to your point about the young service still show that, you know, the among the young at least, if vaccinations are required for travel or for gatherings, you`re more likely to see vaccination rates go up.

RUHLE: But exactly why is it politicized? That`s what I don`t understand. It was former President Trump`s administration that lead Operation Warp Speed. Operation Warp Speed is how we ended up with the vaccine. It was truly extraordinary. Trump can take credit for that. Trump was vaccinated. His entire family was vaccinated. So how exactly did this become politicized to those hardcore Trump supporters not realize he got the vaccine, he helped develop it?

BHADELIA: I agree. And I want to stress that, I mean, what a feat of science that was. I mean, to be able to look at where we would have been today, you know, we`re talking about these surges in many of our states, look at where we would have been if majority of us had not been vaccinated. You only have to look across to what`s happening in the continent of Africa, where you`re seeing over a million new cases in the last month, and you`re seeing, you know, five countries report ICU shortages, and the vaccines remain out of reach for most people. And that`s the situation we would have been.

And today, we have the luxury. We have vaccines that are safe. We have vaccines that reduce transmission to other people. We have vaccines, they keep you out of the hospital, they keep you from getting, you know, hospitalized, or dying from this disease. This is a vaccine preventable disease. And all I can say is one way as you as to know today, Surgeon General talked about misinformation and disinformation. One way you as an individual can help, you know, because we`re all trying to do our best in our health care spaces and our public health spaces, is that if you got the vaccine, find someone who, you know, that you trust, who hasn`t and explain why you got it and explain, you know, that you haven`t had reactions and that might help dispel some of that misinformation, putting a face to the vaccination.

RUHLE: Listen to the misinformation risk getting really sick. Dr. Nahid Bhadelia, thank you for joining me tonight. Thank you for all that you do.

Coming up, an inside look at a new TV network in the UK. Some are calling Fox News with a British accent when the 11th Hour continues. We`re going to dig right in.



RUHLE: The UK now has a Conservative News Channel of its own hitting on all the familiar hot topics like canceled culture. NBC News foreign correspondent Matt Bradley brings us that story tonight.


MATT BRADLEY, NBC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Britain has given America The Beatles, James Bond and Harry Potter. So now a grateful America is finally returning the favor.

JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS HOST: We need to kill them. We need to kill them.

BRADLEY: With the gift of right wing cable punditry.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: How did we wind up with a country in which feminists do science?

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: I don`t vet the information on this program that I give out.


BRADLEY: Since GB news short for Great Britain debuted last month, it`s been called Fox News with a British accent defying Britain stuffy TV news culture.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s not going to be another dull rolling news program.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just tell me how it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Disruptive and constructive.


BRADLEY: It`s first few days were definitely disrupted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome back to tonight live it is 10:00 pm

BRADLEY: But even with the technical gaps, GB news is opening ratings beat established giants like the BBC and Sky News. And in his opening speech, GB News`s founder Andrew Neil offered a radically new idea for British TV.

ANDREW NEIL, GB NEWS FOUNDER: We`re not a rolling news channel, nor will we be providing conventional news bulletins.

BRADLEY: Like many American cable news channels, GB News is about personalities and partisan takes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This PC thing that has just gotten completely out of hand.

BRADLEY: Many of those opinions veer toward the right following the path laid by Fox.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But this particular gesture is very, very accident and a lot of people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Moving on so what are the petulant Prince Harry and Duchess of woke Meghan Markle, really want.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For today`s cultural warriors pretty much everything is racist these days even mathematics. Yes, mathematics.

BRADLEY (on camera): So is this similar to Fox News? Is that an apt comparison?

NANA AKUA, GB NEWS PRESENTER: Not really. And that`s because we are regulated by someone called Ofcom right.


AKUA: And Ofcom will make sure that you are not allowed to show political bias in any way.

BRADLEY (voice-over): Ofcom or the Office of Communications is a state appointed regulator that usually blocks U.S. style partisan punditry, but despite hundreds of complaints of a recent COVID coverage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tragically, the doomsday scientists and public health officials have taken control.


BRADLEY: This week Ofcom said it wouldn`t investigate GB News the citing its right to free expression. Ironically, even though the channel bills itself as an anti-canceled culture channel, some have already tried to cancel it.

(on camera): The backlash came strong and fast.

AKUA: It did. Yes. In fact, the backlash came before we even started that`s the thing.

BRADLEY (voice-over): Even before it launched a campaign group called Stop Funding Hate started convincing some advertisers to pull out of GB News because the idea sounded like Fox. Several major brands have paused their advertising.

(on camera): Why is GB News in your crosshairs?

RICHARD WILSON, STOP FUNDING HATE DIRECTOR AND CO-FOUNDER: Eight months before GB News was due to launch it was being trailed in the UK media as a Fox News style channel. And Fox News is notorious worldwide for racism, climate changed in Ireland misinformation.

BRADLEY (on camera): Since its first few days, GB News`s audience figures have slumped by 48 percent to 26,000. But they`ve held on to enough viewers to fight the culture wars another day.

AKUA: We have an audience because they`re sick and tired of not being able to talk about how they feel about an issue without being canceled.


RUHLE: While they`re not going to be canceled. They`re just about to go on air. Matt Bradley, thank you. There`s more of the 11th Hour ahead stay with us. We got a special story.


RUHLE: Thank you for letting me join you this evening. And the last thing before we go to bed, let`s not talk about politics or business or culture wars. Let`s get a little inspired. I want to tell you about a very special 10-year-old girl. Her name is Mia. Mia is an actress and a model. She has tens of thousands of fans and followers on social media. You know what else, she has Down syndrome.


Mia has been an inspiration to many and she hopes to help the world understand. The Down syndrome is a superpower. Not something to be feared. But I believe her and I cannot wait to meet her. Mia and her mother will both join me on my show right here on MSNBC at 9:00 a.m. Eastern tomorrow morning. I really hope you join us.

Thank you for letting me stay up late with you tonight. And I hope you wake up early with me tomorrow.

That is our broadcast for this Thursday evening. Brian Williams will be back in this seat tomorrow. On behalf of all of my colleagues at the network`s NBC News, good night, and thank you.